 How are you going mate, what's your name? I'm Marlowe. Marlowe, good to meet you Marlowe. So you don't agree with this statement either? No, I don't agree because I eat meat and I could like never... I'm just going to start off like saying I could never kill an animal with my bare hands. I could never do that. I would like break me. And like the reason I eat meat is because... I kind of lost my words, I'm a bit shit at this. That's alright. Yeah. Just alright. You know there's no right or wrong sort of answer in a debate. I'm just trying to find out what your moral stance is on this and if your actions are consistent with that. That's all. Yeah. So a couple of some... I'm just going to start with a couple of summers ago. I was staying at my friend's house. They were raising some pigs. And it wasn't like slaughterhouses. Like slaughterhouses, some slaughterhouses are really corrupt. Like I've seen the videos, they keep animals in tiny pens. I try to avoid meat that has probably come from places like that as much as possible. Like Tesco, Sainsbury's. I try not to buy meat from that as much as possible. So I want to avoid that. I think I eat meat, but I try to make sure that it's not from like slaughterhouses, which are usually really badly treated animals. But it does come from a slaughterhouse? Not necessarily. So your meat doesn't come from a slaughterhouse? No, not necessarily. So where does it come from? I go to this little butcher's near my house. I know that the whole thing is they don't get their meat from slaughterhouses. It's all from local farmers. They don't raise their animals to be slaughtered. So how do they... They keep them in like field pens, and they make sure that they're not killed horribly and brutally. Okay, so you're talking about humane slaughter here? Yeah. Okay, so can you draw a picture for us what humane slaughter looks like? I don't think there's any humane way to kill an animal, but I think... Okay, okay, we'll just wait here. You don't think there's a humane way to kill an animal? So would you call it abuse to take the life of an animal who wants to live? No, it's not abuse. Abuse can be... I think abuse is more of a repetitive thing. If you're constantly putting an animal through pain. It's only a repetitive thing? I think. That's how I think. Okay, what about the mindset towards animals? Do you think it's abuse to exploit someone as a product? Yeah. Okay. And the animals on your plane weren't exploited? I'm not going to say all animals on my plane were exploited, because I don't know. I don't know. I don't know every single restaurant I go to. I don't know where all the meat. Let's talk about the best case scenario for you. The best place, you know, you talk about these farm, family farms. You don't think those animals are being exploited? Not being exploited, like... They didn't get paid for that flesh? No, because we use it for themselves. So you didn't pay for that flesh? They gave it to you? Yeah, because we're family friends. The pigs I raised, we shared those. The meat place I go to, yeah, I do pay for that. Do you know what exploitation is? Yeah. Okay, what is it? It's the like... I'm trying to think of a way to describe it. It's like using something. Using someone? Yeah, using something. For your own gain? Okay. And what did the farmers gain from those animals that were chopped up? Meat. Okay. So you don't think that's exploitation? You got me there. I'll give you that. No, but that's fine, dude. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this with you. You know, we're using animals for products we don't need. Do you think we need to eat animals to survive or be healthy? I'm going to be honest, no. We don't always need animals. Not always. Do you think there's outlying scenarios where we might need to do something to survive or something? You don't need to do anything. Like, I eat meat by choice. Because like, I just... I've tried to feed vegetarian ones. I was a bit crap at it. It lasted like a couple of days. Because I mean, honestly, it's just the truth. I like meat. So did I, dude. Do you think I didn't like meat? Yeah, I used to eat steak every night. I didn't even see an animal when I looked at the steak. But you sound like an honest guy, dude. Do you really think down the line where your meat comes from it's a real nice process seeing an animal get shot in the head and slashed across the throat? Have you ever seen it? No, I don't know where my meat comes from a lot of the time. Not like meat I buy. Meat I buy. I try to avoid the big companies that obviously... But you don't always eat meat from those companies and you haven't even seen the slaughter process at those companies, yeah? I don't see the slaughter process of everything. But you even agreed that exploitation is abuse. So all those animals, no matter where they're coming from are being abused via exploitation, yeah? Maybe you're right. Maybe you changed my mind. Well, dude, I'm happy that you've come to that conclusion. But, you know, I don't even think I need to show you this. But let's just... What I've got written on that poster out here if you're not vegan you support animal abuse, right? Do you still disagree with it? Because a vegan is just anti-exploitation of animals. Yeah. You know, like, some people are racist. Some people commit domestic violence. If you're anti-domestic violence, if you're anti-racism, you know, veganism is like being anti-animal abuse. You understand veganism now? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's not a diet, you know? It extends to your diet. It's a philosophy that extends to what you do. Okay, yeah. So I always thought of it as more of a diet and, like, a choice. I don't want to harm animals. And, like, I'll be straight. I've been thinking about going vegetarian or vegan, like, lately. Because, like, I've issued climate change as well. Because a lot of... Because the meat industry does contribute a lot to climate change. It does. It does. The dairy industry... So I'm going to show you a gas chamber because you might not have seen it. But this is the dairy industry. Are you familiar with the process? I think I've read something on it, but I can't remember off the top of my head. So they artificially inseminate the cow, stick a fist in her anus, hold her cervix, inject her with bull semen. And then after she gives birth, they take her calf away. If the calf's a boy, they'll send him to be slaughtered. If it's a girl, they'll raise that girl, impregnate her, take her children away from her year after year after year. Then they slaughter them for their flesh and turn them into burgers. All right. Got me there. It's pretty horrible. So what he's doing is he's sticking his fist in her anus, injecting her with bull semen. Do you think... Would you class that as abuse? Got me, man. It's abuse. What about taking a mother's child? Would you class that as abuse? Yeah. I think here's where the line draws. I agree this could be class as abuse, but like taking a mother's child in human terms, that would be abuse. But animals don't think the same way as us. I'll say that. So you don't think animals suffer when they lose their baby? I don't know. We don't really... We don't think we know. We don't know what exactly what goes on in animals' heads to be fair. I don't actually know what's going on in your head to be fair. Me neither. Yeah. Not what I don't, but I can't prove what's going on in there. You have to tell me. You have to show me. How would you show me if you're being abused? Screen? Yeah. So these animals here, how do you know if they're suffering or not? How would you know? Would they make a sound? Yeah. Have you heard of pining? No. I don't know what pining is. So when you go on a dairy farm, I've been on a few dairy farms, and you'll hear a sound, and it sounds like a cow belching out, but it sounds really painful. And what it is, it's the mother pining for their young. Well, they're maternal animals. Very maternal animals. They carry their child for nine months, and it's a horrible process in the dairy industry now. For a product like their breast milk, that's what milk is. It's breast milk, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. We're exploiting mothers and killing children, essentially. Well, they're anthropomorphizing a bit, but it's a child of a mother cow, isn't it? And even the egg industry, these are egg laying hens. They're being exploited for their eggs as well. Okay, that. I'm not necessarily, not all farms exploit chickens for their eggs. I agree. There are a lot of factory farms that do exploit chickens. Can you talk about the farms that don't? Like local farms. Like, I'm not saying, I mean, there's a local farm around the corner. Yeah, that. I can't be sure where all that meat comes from. I can't be sure that all of it's humane. Like, I know it's local farmers, but that's all I know. I don't know how the farmers treat it. So if I tell you something's local when it's a hacked up dog's body there and I say it's local, does that thereby make it more ethical if it's local? Nah. So what does local actually mean? Local is just something nearby. Is that just something you've been repetitively told over time? Yeah. So if I say local, that there by justifies what we do to animals. Not necessarily, to be honest. You don't think local animals are exploited and killed? Local animals can be. Yeah. There's a slaughterhouse local to here. Would that be an ethical one because it's close? No, it's not. I could drive you to a slaughterhouse. You'd be local to it then. Yeah. I could also drive you to a factory farm. It would be local once you were there. Yeah. But what I'm trying to say is not every single farm in England is all really inhumane. I agree. They're called sanctuaries. Do you know what an animal sanctuary is? Go on then. Hit me. It's where they rescue animals from animal agriculture and they let them live out their lives and they don't exploit them. They don't take the animals eggs. They don't use them for their milk. They don't hack them up and eat their bodies. They just leave them be and look after them, protect them. Right. But you might as well say like, what's the point? Like, I don't want to sound like dick, but I mean, what's the point? What's the point in looking after animals? I don't know. People kill people. What's the point in not? What's the point in not? What's the point in not abusing people? People like, actually, people have more sophisticated minds for animals. Like, animals, I'm not going to say animals aren't intelligent because animals can, they are. I don't want you to fall into a trap here. That's all, brother. I don't want you to fall into a trap. I'm just going to say what's the moral difference between a human and an animal that makes it okay to stab an animal in the throat for a burger, but yet we have to give human beings moral treatment? Like, what is the morally significant difference? Do you think it's intelligence? Maybe. Like, people, they have, like, look at this. You don't see animals in the city. Like, look around you. You don't, animals, like, animals are intelligent, but they're not, like, the same. Okay. There's humans that are less intelligent than animals. I do know that, right? Yeah, I know. People are born with mental retardation. Yeah, I know. So we can't treat them immorally because of their sentience or their intelligence. No, you're right. Yeah. Look, like, you have a dog? Do you have a pet dog? Do you have a cat? Do you love your cat? Yeah, I love it. Okay, your cat's not as intelligent as you? I love it. I mean, your cat, do you think your cat has the same cognitive abilities you have? No. I think they're quite smart, but they're different, aren't they? Yeah. I think not. It's not true. I've never said that. I know, I know. But, like, I'm just saying people will try to make out every single person that's equal. Not in every way, but we deserve the equal right to life. Do you agree? Everyone deserves equal rights, but not everyone's equal in the same way. No, I don't agree. I mean, we're not equal age. No. We're not equal size. No. Nothing about us is, like, could be equal, but we need to be treated equally. Yeah, but we deserve equal rights. No. We don't always, we don't necessarily... Everyone deserves equal rights. So your cat, you don't really know if your cat's suffering. How can we really tell? I mean, we might as well just kill them and exploit them and, you know, who really knows? They're less intelligent and would all your justifications apply to your cat? This is how you navigate these moral issues. Are there contradictions when you put it in a different context? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, if you go, it's okay to exploit cows. It's okay to exploit children. It's okay to exploit cats and dogs. It's okay to exploit. You can't apply it in one context in other contexts. So, put yourself in the animal's position. Put your cat in the animal's position and then recalibrate what you think about it. Yeah, right. That's how I... It took me a while because I was taught by the same society you were. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Catch you, man. You know what? Fuck it. I'll go veggie. I'll go veggie for, like, a week, I'll go veggie for a week, see how it goes, maybe even go vegan. This is just a vegan challenge. I don't advocate for vegetarianism or egg-laying. Hens are suffering horrible lives. And exploitation is exploitation, whether it's in the meat industry, the leather industry, the egg industry. It's all exploitation. Veganism's anti-exploitation of animals. It's not meat-free Mondays. It's not vegetarianism. It's a philosophy against animal abuse. Yeah. Catch you, man. This is a good way to start. All right. It's a Facebook challenge. It's free. They'll give you guidance. You can go check in and just do it for 22 days and then go, okay, I've been anti-animal abuse for 22 days. Do I want to continue anti-animal abuse for the rest of my life? Yeah. I'll give it a try then. What's your name, bro? Milo. Milo. Good to meet you, brother. Here. That's my email address. Let me know how you go, brother. Cheers. Take care, mate. Hi. His friend goes, are you vegan yet?