 Welcome to NewsClick. Today we have with us Mr. Shashikant Senthil, former IIS officer and now who has been working as an activist in the anti-CANRC movement, especially in Karnataka. Today we are going to talk to him about a wide range of issues. So, welcome to NewsClick, Mr. Senthil. The first question I would like to ask you about is about your resignation, ahead of which you had said that it's unethical to continue as a servant right now. So, I would like to ask you why did you say that and what were the immediate triggers back then and why did you come to this decision? Yeah, it was not a very immediate trigger. I had been watching the way Senthil government has been conducting itself from 2014 onwards. So, I had been the district collector of three districts in that in those period and a close scrutiny of what has been happening in the country from 2014 for me was very clear that we were in a very, very specific framework, a fastest framework has was being deployed on the country. This was not from one issue, but the series of issues and the focus areas of Senthil government. So, I thought we were in the country was heading in the wrong direction, specifically with respect to the constitutional principles. So, 2019 when the vote share increased of the same forces, I found I think it's time that we need to do something about it and my decision to resign was because that if I need to do something, I have to come out. I cannot be a civil servant and do it. It will be not ethical on that aspects. So, I was very clear in my letter also the foundation of our democracy is being sort of compromised. So, that is why I thought I should resign and come out and do something about it. So, but as a bureaucrat, how is this government's functioning working, interfering with your working? Can you give us some examples? No, it was not interfering in a day-to-day activity type of thing because in Karnataka also we had seen three governments in that phase, but the general direction in which we were going and the indicators which I could see was very clear that we were heading in a wrong direction. Anybody who had heard the political theory would know that the this sort of a framework with a patriarch taking control of the country and then a mythical past and sort of glorification in the past and sort of constant indication of the outgroup. These are all classic framework of fascism and when they started attacking universities which is again a classic indicator because of the anti-intellectual thought process of the framework, I was very clear that this is happening and history has many indications for us how this will move forward and when they abrogated 370 and converted the whole state into a prison, I was very clear now this is going in a very very wrong direction and I see the CA, NRC is also a part of the framework of pointing at an outgroup and sort of thriving on the hate and fear of the majority. So that is the issue. It was not in a day-to-day interference into this thing. Okay and after your resignation you were targeted as usual like BJP leaders saying that you go to Pakistan and Kumar Hegde said that about you. So there's this mentality that you are either with us or is go to Pakistan. So how do you counter that or how do you stop them from painting you in a picture? You would seem like an anti-national. How do you deal with it? It's a very interesting question and we have to watch it very closely. The entire framework works on the concept of a hyper-nationalistic call. So all hidden agendas will be only taken in the name of nation. That's how fascism moves forward. So that is why when you find somebody dissenting or somebody raising a question, the first response and the only response will be anti-national. When I resigned, I was until then I was one of the best officers in the state. The people like me, the politicians like me, everybody were in favor of me. The moment I resigned and said why I am resigning, the first response was you are an anti-national. Now the response could have been something else also that you are anti-Hindu or you are an urban next line, whatever. But the response will always be anti-national and this is one thing that we have to watch and it clearly tells us where we are heading. So any dissent will be sort of counter-funded with this argument and if it gets a little boring, they will say go to Pakistan. So it's a very expected response. Okay. Now coming to the anti-CA and NRC NPR movement, can you tell us why exactly do we need to take a stand against CA, especially NRC and NPR? Yeah. Now CA and NRC, these two things are different. You know, CA is an amendment to the Citizenship Act. Now the current amendment which has happened, you know, looking at from any angle, you know, doesn't give any logic. It is absolutely discriminatory and it is also arbitrary. And why discrimination? I can understand because pointing at an out-group is what is constantly being happening in this country. You know, from 2013-14, you take all the issues which have been risen in this country, which will be all emotional and also so value-oriented issues like, you know, Garwabsi, beef-eating, you know, and also sort of Lao Jihad. In everything, the ultimate intention is to show this out-group. And also when 370 was abrogated, I think there also the out-group was, the Muslims were pointed out, you know, as if they were anti-nationalism, things like that. So now CA, when they did CA, the only logic I see is like, you know, again, they wanted to point out an out-group. Because if we see who is getting benefited out of it, you know, after all the RTIs and everything, we were not able to get any numbers except the last joint parliamentary committee's report saying that there are around 30,000 people from these three countries who have living in India for a long, with a long visa. So apart from that, it doesn't benefit anybody. So this whole argument of giving citizenship and all is just, in my opinion, doesn't serve any purpose. But clearly, the Muslims are pointed out as people who are not seen at par. I think that is what they have achieved. So I think it is a responsibility of every Indian to object to this because it is an unconstitutional amendment. And I think never in the history we have done such an amendment by leaving this bigger sort of separating religion out. So since it is unconstitutional, I think all Indians have this responsibility of fighting against it. So today, it could be the Muslims. Tomorrow, it could be Adivasis within the Hindus. Tomorrow, day after tomorrow, it can be schedule cast. So what will prevent the governments from setting these presidences? So I think every community has a responsibility of objecting to such discriminatory laws. That is the part about CAO. And NRC, I think it's completely evil. And also, I would say it's completely anti-poor because this sort of exercise, I would also say, is utterly foolish to do in India. And to take up an issue like citizenship and to question it within our country. And that too, how do you question it? You question it by presenting documents. How do you verify citizenship? You just do it by documents. We are a country where we have not even given documents to people. 50% and above, they don't live with any documents. We have not even ensured institutional deliveries. In that case, when you bring in an exercise like this, your intention is again to show the outgroup. But my point is, in this exercise, everybody is vulnerable, including me, including all the armed forces and all the police, their families are vulnerable because they will not have documents for their fathers and mothers and grandfathers to prove that they have, for citizenship, you have to prove you are born in this country. And the date in which you are born is both are important. There is no such documents which records both together. So taking the example from Assam, we have seen that even after having all other cards, water IDs, citizenship doesn't get proved by that. So I think it's an absolutely foolish exercise to do. And every one of us, especially the underprivileged is in a big mess as far as this NRC is concerned. Okay, but this is this perception that if you're a Hindu, then you do not need to be afraid of NRC and NPR because CAF will ultimately save you. So what answer will you give? That's absolutely a stupid lie. CA only protects those people who have from the six sort of religions who have come from three countries, you know, and they should have entered this country before 31st of December 2014. Now, let us take an average Hindu here, who is a resident of Delhi, let us say, and he is not able to present his documents. Now, can he get relief through CA? No. The CA is only for people who are from Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh. So this guy who is a Delhiite who's lived all his generation in Delhi, will he be ready to say that he is from Pakistan? Will he be ready to prove that he is from Bangladesh? For that, what he has to do? Does he have to go to Pakistan and get a birth certificate for him? It's a complete lie. This will not save any Hindu or any underprivileged from this matter. Everybody will be in a soup. Very clearly in Assam, it has happened out of the 19 lakh people, the reports say 12 lakh are Hindus. You know, so that sort of a thing is completely false. And CA will not absolve any Hindu from India who was not ready to present any documents. Okay, so if you look at the larger picture of this exercise, it will not come as a surprise because people have known that this government is anti Muslim. There's no doubt about that. So, but you still see that even though we can say that BJP is losing in some states and you know, maybe it's there down for some assume, but their vote share and number of seeds has been ultimately increasing. So how do you see the future of this political party and this future of hated of politics? Where will it take us? Will we be able to counter it? Yeah, I think, you know, a very positive thing is that now people have started involving themselves in these questions. You know, until the 370 was abrogated, I think the complete silence from the population as such. But now people have started questioning, started understanding these things. Again, I would insist their mantra is nationalism. You know, Hindutva and all those related agendas will be pushed as nationalism. Unless people see this in the name of nationalism, what is being pushed? It's very difficult to extract yourself from out of this. That is why I think we are in a very, very tough situation because a common man, when he is asked to do a national duty, he will be ready to do it. When they brought in demonetization, the argument was we have to take out black money. And everybody would accept that for the nation. But then what happened? They did this not bandi and who got affected? Everybody knows similarly when 370 also, they said, let's let's this is a national call and everybody accepted it. Now in this NRC also, they will say to get the illegal immigrants out of this country and to make this nation again great, we are doing this. So unless you extract yourself out of this nationalistic, you know, sort of face which they put, it's very difficult. So it's very important that people involved in politicize themselves to understand this particular thing. And I think what is right now happening is a very, very great movement because people themselves are getting involved. Secondly, another thing, a generally a fascist government will do is it will completely destroy the independent institutions. And now people on the roads who have come to the roads, they have come there because a lot of independent institutions have have lost their value in the eyes of the people. It includes media, other institutions, judiciary, whatever. So that is the reason why people have come. They have started asking the questions. I think from here we'll only move forward. Losses in state elections, you know, will not does not indicate much about the how the central elections will move forward. But I think this people's movement where people have started questioning and engaging in a debate, I think that will extract our country out of this mess and we'll be back to track. I have a complete faith on this entire movement and the way it has happened is very, very inspiring. Thank you for being with us. Thank you. Please keep watching NewsClick.