 Again, we're just letting everybody in, so we will start the discussion properly in literally just a minute, so just please be patient. You have a little bit of time to go and get your coffee or tea depending on where you are, and we will start in a minute. Okay, we already have more than 100 people, and it seems the numbers keep rising, but it's already two minutes past the time we're supposed to start, so we're going to go ahead. Hello everybody. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening depending on where you're logging in from. Welcome to the Land Dialogue Webinar Series. It is being organized in partnership with the Ford Foundation, the Land Portal Foundation, the Tenure Facility, and the Thomson Reuters Foundation. Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Thin, I'm a journalist specializing in food systems and climate change issues, and I'm delighted to be, I'm delighted to be moderating today's session. Now this is the first Land Dialogue discussion for this year, and we're going to be doing things a little bit differently. What this means is that instead of having a 90 minute session, we are going to have a 60 minute webinar. Now don't worry, there is time set aside still for Q&A. And we're also going to be keeping a lookout for interesting questions that's going to, that I'm sure will come up during the discussion and we'll see if we can fit them in even before the Q&A starts. The idea behind this whole webinar series is to raise awareness on the land rights of Indigenous peoples and local communities. This is because these rights are a prerequisite to achieve national and international goals around many, many things. And those include forest governance, food security, climate medication, economic development, and human rights. Now there will be four land dialogues in total this year, and each one will be focusing on a different topic. Now before I get into today's discussion topic, I would like to just go through a few housekeeping rules. First, this webinar is in English, but we have simultaneous translations in French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Bahasa Indonesia. To access your translation, all you have to do is to go to this little globe icon that you can see at the bottom of your Zoom window. Now you can click on it and then select the language that you want. Like I said earlier, the webinar will last 60 minutes. We have about 10, 15 minutes for Q&A. So if you have any questions, please post them in the Q&A box and not in the chat box. However, please use the chat box to let us know who you are, which organisation you belong to, and where you're joining us from. Also, please feel free to tweet using the hashtag LENDialogs. That's just one word, hashtag LENDialogs. And you can also follow the live tweets from LENPorter and Tenure facility Twitter accounts. Finally, we're also recording today's session and we will share the link with all of you later. Now that we've gotten all of that out of the way, let's turn to today's topic. That is taking data back, women's sovereignty over LEN data. Now we so often hear these days about how important data is, right, that data is the new oil. So we want to better understand where the current model of data science is and whether it includes and reflects the realities of Indigenous women and their LEN rights. We want to know whether they are able to participate in data collection and use, particularly when that data is about them and their LEN tenure. And if they can't participate, we want to know why and how this can be remedied, how they can take back control. Now, it's important that we define a couple of key terms before starting this discussion because you're going to be hearing these terms throughout today's conversation. And the first term is Indigenous data sovereignty or IDS for short. And this refers to the right of Indigenous peoples to control data from and about their communities and lands. Articulating both individual and collective rights to data access and to privacy. The second term is called data feminism. Now, this is a framework for thinking about data science and ethics that is guided by ideas of intersectional feminism. The work of data feminism uncovers how standard practices in data science, how they serve to reinforce existing inequalities around the world. We're going to be sharing some of the links about these terms in the chat box. So keep your chat box open. Now, I'm going to introduce you to our speakers who are going to help us understand the whole debate around data better. And the interest of fairness, I'm going to introduce them in alphabetical order. Now, first we have Betty Rubio who is a Quechua leader. Unfortunately, Betty is in the field at the moment and we haven't been able to reach her so she might not be able to join us today. However, we do have Danique Puriati who is director of Vishnu Foundation in Indonesia. Now Danique has been involved in grassroots activities for over 25 years and she's an expert when it comes to organizing local communities, village planning, customary village empowerment and community based ecotourism. We then have Lydia Jennings who is a Native American soil microbiologist and an environmental scientist. Lydia's conducted research on soil health, environmental remediation, indigenous science and environmental data ownership by tribal nations. Lydia's currently a presidential postdoctoral fellow at the School of Sustainability and the Nicola School of the Environment. And last but definitely not the least is Rudo Kemper who is chief program officer at the Cadesta Foundation. Rudo's a geographer and a technologist and he has over a decade of experience supporting indigenous communities in mapping and monitoring their lands and also to build digital tools that increase community self determination, access to land rights and land management capabilities. Now, I've already talked far too much. So I'm going to turn to the experts and then ask them a couple of round of questions, and I really encourage them to respond to each other's answers and to build on them. My only request is to keep your answers to maximum two to three minutes. Now, again, to the audience, please use the Q&A box to send your questions and it would be great if you could also identify yourself and your organization. Now, Deneke, can I turn to you first. I would like you to sort of help us set the scene in terms of what is happening right now. And when it comes to data because you have extensive experience working with local indigenous communities. Can you tell us, you know, who is collecting this data, who has access, who doesn't. And what are some of the main problems. Deneke, can you hear me. Yes, I'm sorry. Sorry, I'm having a bit of my internet connection so really apologize for that. Can you hear me now. Yes, we can. Thank you. Please go ahead. If you don't mind repeating the question then I'm sorry I'm having a bit of an internet problem. No problem. I was just asking Deneke to sort of help set the scene, you know, in terms of what's happening right now, when it comes to data collection, who's doing it, you know, who has access, and who doesn't. What, what is the, what are some of the problems that indigenous women in particular are facing right now when it comes to data. Thank you so much. I'm really sorry I don't think I'll turn off my video camera. I hope I have will I will have better connection. Thank you so much for having me I appreciate the moment. Thank you miss 10 and everyone else. So you inquire of data you asked me to, you know, start the scene here in Indonesia and at least an in Bali. The majority of data collection work is still being done by the government. So most land data would be collected with and then be stored by the government. So you inquire about women what does women have access to it. It is very much contingent on the, well the ability of the women themselves to do so. And the thing about it is that land ownership in Bali. It's not just about the economy or the land value but it's very much integral to cultural aspect. And this is something that I think can be very problematic. Because there's an issue of individual certification on lands located in Bali. And this is causing issues such as limited access to women and women as you know women and then indigenous group. And, yeah, there's very restrictive access because of there's there's a priority over investment rather than women's land tenure. Maybe that's all for now. Thank you. And that's that's that's really helpful to give the very specific example from Bali. Rudo, can I bring you in because you've worked with a lot of indigenous groups. What are some of the problems you are currently seeing right now and what are some of the issues. Yeah, certainly. So thanks then and hi everyone it's really great to be here with you today. Yeah, so thinking about this question of setting the stage I think of a lot of my experience working with indigenous communities, especially in the Amazon region in South America, where the villages are very remote and community members have had limited access to technology. And certainly, you know, what then I said around most of the initiatives have been government led until very recently I see that happening in the Amazon as well. But one of the more interesting recent trends is that you do start to see a lot of communities driven data collection processes taking place because community members have found the need to collect their own data or make their own maps to be able to go under the maps that either the government has or that outside interest like extractive industries, you know, have, which shows a lot of data like concessions over the land but it doesn't show any of the indigenous knowledge, or any of the community's perspective on what their land looks like. So community members are starting to do more data collection. And some of that is also due to the increasing availability of, you know, easy to use smartphone applications for data collection and mapping. But there is kind of a disconnect and an incompleteness about the data cycle that I've seen that I think a lot more work needs to be done on because you have community members including women that are involved in data collection, but then there's a gap once that data has been collected and has to be submitted somewhere to be processed. And that's where I start to see that a lot of the communities have less and less control or autonomy over that process because it has to be sent somewhere. But for example, in which case if a community is remote or offline they don't have access to that data or there's a latency, they don't have access to it for months. Frequently an outside party like an NGO or researcher or sometimes even the government has to get involved in helping process some of that data, or analyze it. And so you start to see less and less control by the community over the data once it has been collected. So the data cycle there's still a lot of incompleteness and gaps. And I think also in terms of indigenous women, you know, their level of access to that data gets to be diminished as well as more dominant interest within the community might be the only parties that are receiving that data once it has been processed or collected as well. So I think there's some promising trends in terms of the increasing availability of access to data collection tools, but there's still a lot of gaps. Maybe I'll start with that. Thanks, Ruto. Lydia, I saw you nodding when both Danique and Ruto were talking and I just just want to give you, before I go back into the need if you wanted to add anything. Oh, you're still on mute. Yeah, I think both have made really important points. I also just want to make sure that we are more expansive on what we consider as data. And so I think when we talk about data science and a lot of these conversations about land data we tend to think through this very colonial lens of these binary numbers are collected. And really making sure that we step back in a reflective that data is inclusive of our languages of our locations of sacred ecosystems of our relationships to our human and non human kin. And that's a really important piece that women indigenous women have always held in different capacities and are typically part of the dominant narrative of data. And so as we talk about today in this conversation of women being knowledge and data experts, it's really important to recognize that in different cultures. And I think of my own, you know, the type of knowledge and data that women are experts and might be different than the men and it's not because of gender disparities it's because we recognize that we each have different roles as knowledge keepers and knowledge experts. So really making sure that we're expansive as we talk about these pieces in this conversation today. Great, thank you Lydia, the Nick I want to come to you, and that sort of links to what you talked earlier about, you know indigenous women and the cultural values and also, you know sort of link to what Lydia just just talked about how we see data as you know how, when we, you know, you talked about the challenges, you know in Bali in Indonesia, in particular, your experience, how could you know this collection of land related data can be done in a way that reflects cultural values, right because I think you talked about and I think Lydia also talked about just now as woman as the center of you know data and these values. Yeah, how can this be, how can data can be collected in a way that reflects cultural values for indigenous women. Thank you, thank you for the question. Well, at least I'm going to speak from Bali but before I go further with regard to land data, especially land data in Bali, because we also understand the connection the relationship between Bali niece and their lands. We have the conviction. We have a local belief, and we believe in, we subscribe to the five elements that is, you know, that is underpinning the creation of the world as a whole, and we share the same elements with the nature with earth, and so it is within our obligation to be the guardian of the land the earth everything that is available to us here. So with regard to, with regard to the recent development you know in the past we have we've had our religious, we have we had our religious leaders our, our figures who have govern, who have set up the whole land management we have the administration system. We have spatial planning residential area was good for public place everything we have that management but then there was this was in the past but then after independence, and then when government of Indonesia acting on behalf of growth or economic development, and then starting to when then when investment starts to take precedence. So sooner than later, the cultural value starts to diminish, and it creates, it creates chaos in Bali. So most Bali, Balinese who have what we call a prasasti, and then we have local beliefs we can we can no longer talk with the government because the government refused to acknowledge the significance of that so our belief system that edit, and they call it invalid, and they caught, and then they, they, they introduce classification and then with the whole basic agrarian law that's causing massive disputes and yet even more problems. So when there's a shift in the policy that I guess started back in the reform era. We started to, in, we started to introduce participatory mapping, I guess this is similar to what Rudo mentioned earlier, we start to engage the community to be to be part of participatory mapping to, and to do that more actively. And yeah, it's more, it's a self that their individual their independent exercise. And so, from wisdom foundation, we started working with the community groups the community organization to educate them about, you know, land and the whole spatial have more spatial awareness, and we mobilize them we work with them more closely. We work with the village, village apparatus, the village community organization we work with the youth. We work with many local groups. We start to educate them, make them more aware about what they have, and their ability, and then we start to build a an agreement with the village government as well, about the steps that they have to, that they have to do. And since we're encountering the, the reality of globalization. And I'm sure you know I'm sure everybody knows about investment in Bali and how that is. It is penetrating our daily lives, it is, you know, entering into indigenous lands, and we, we think it's a tad too late it is, it's very so the huge flow of tourism, and that's making. I guess making the local body needs had forgotten about our local values about the whole five elements, we want to remind them again about the the local values that we, that we have that we should have upheld. And so we want to, we want to make, we want to remind them again about these values and so we started to do, as I mentioned participatory, participatory, participatory mapping with women and youth, the, the, the male youth, and that is, I guess it's easier to work with them, they can work with. And if we can, and we also encourage the women to do not, not only land data but also social data. So in, in this exercise we also allow facilitate transfer of knowledge. We want to have a transfer of knowledge between, you know, the elders to the youth, but that is very fluid it happens easily. And we in that we facilitate the dialogue between women, elders and the youth, because social data social and cultural data are abundant actually. And yeah, I guess, and I think women are in possession of this abundant cultural data to be honest but that's just my opinion, thank you. Yeah, Danny. Lydia, can I come to next, you know, Danny talked about how they're doing to try and ensure that right the collection is, you know, reflecting cultural values but what about in terms of practicalities of just, you know, trying to take back that land related data. Can this be done if so how. I find a lot of inspiration that looking at the scores of indigenous communities and indigenous scholars who are really working to both reclaim their data of their communities and also make sure policies in the future, really assert their rights to have access to that to have governance authority over that types of data. And I think it's really important that we contextualize a lot of data and and material culture that about indigenous peoples and our sacred ecosystems has been collected through very colonial expedition processes and so there's both in the museum center of going back and reclaiming ancestors that are housed in museums, but then also going through and retroactively looking at databases that are collecting information about indigenous peoples lands and ecosystems. So I work with a collaborator for indigenous data governance at the University of Arizona. And I think what's really powerful about this collaborator is we have indigenous scholars from a variety of different disciplines we've had brutal come and talk actually talked to our group before, and really look at how people in a variety of different disciplines are thinking about how do we embed indigenous governance and indigenous rights into data infrastructures into policies and utilizes to support indigenous sovereignty in every capacity. And so I think it's those types of partnerships and recognizing them that they translate across political boundaries that are often not boundaries we assign or not boundaries that ecosystems assign and making sure that we can support one another and learn from one another's examples and develop technologies and data infrastructures that really assign rights embedded within them. And to see some great examples happening here in the United States right now the University of Maine has an E DNA program, right so any environmental DNA samples that are being collected in the program itself it will actually send a notification to the tribal nations that it was collected from and let their tribal historic preservation officer know about these programs or these projects happening. And so we need to really be thinking about as researchers as community scholars, how do we start facilitating and building more programs like that, and technologies like that to make sure that when we as an environmental scientist or a cultural anthropologist are collecting information about indigenous peoples, they are not just a collaborator, they are leading those pieces they are knowing what's happening and telling us how good our data is, because I think this is a really lost piece is that as and that this is partially how I was trained, we don't enough learn from the indigenous peoples whose lands we're working on and with. And I think we actually is really hinders our scientific process, because we know indigenous knowledge has gone through the ultimate period we process of being tested across millennia of generations. So that is often really lost in our today's contemporary peer review process it's only three people who are trained to think the same way. And so I think making sure that we can embed this into the practices into the data infrastructures as a really vital piece of this work. Thank you. Thank you so much Lydia that's really interesting, particularly, you know the examples that you gave, but also can I just reiterate I've been requested by the interpreters to try and slow down the speed of our speech I know you know whenever I get excited and you know really into the I tend to speak faster and faster so I guess just take a deep breath and slow it down again so the interpreters can, can, can follow everything that we're saying, Bruno I'm coming back to you and my question is actually you know because you talked about the challenges. And I was going to ask you about what can be done to include indigenous woman in the data cycle, you know in a way that's respectful, but there have been there are quite a few questions that are already coming addressing to you so I also want to throw a couple of them to you in case you are also able to address them in your answer. And essentially, you know you talked about the lack of autonomy. The first time when I was asking you to set the scene. So if you can perhaps, you know, they're asking can you expand on the point you made about not having autonomy router, and the challenges also on the land data connection collection in areas dominated by indigenous communities what is the role of the woman in those particular issues. So I'm sorry, asking you to condense three questions in one but I'll give you an extra minute or to answer that. So, you know, perhaps, again, you might still need to set the scene a little bit more and then talk about what can be done to include women in the data cycle. Okay. Yeah, so maybe first just starting with a quick reflection on what we mean by a data cycle, right when we talk about indigenous communities. And I think there's a lot of alignment here also with what then it can Lydia just said, and I think if you, you know disentangled data from any modern constructs and take data to just mean knowledge. And the communities have always had their data cycles about their land. Right, for example, in the form of oral histories, or through practical teachings on harvesting and planting, or you know the example from Bali that then it brought out so spatial knowledge that's inscribed on to palm leaves. And at least for all of the indigenous communities that I've had the fortune of working with women have always had a strong role in those data cycles so first is to mention that to maybe set the stage a little bit. But right. So as then it pointed out, you know the problem arises when those indigenous data cycles are somehow invalidated by outside actors who come in with their own worldview and conception of data, such as that of geospatial data shown on maps, which is why for indigenous communities they found it really useful and powerful to collect spatial data using some of the same tools to be able to stake out a claim and defend customary and collective right to traditional lands. So, you know, in terms of how to include indigenous women and some of these data cycles that may involve using something like digital tools for participatory mapping. I think there's a few things to consider. One is that it's important to design a project in such a way that indigenous women can be included in the data stewardship process at every step of the way as I mentioned before there's something completeness there. The mapping process tends to only be inclusive during the data collection phase, and that's where the question of autonomy and perhaps reduce autonomy gets comes into play. And some of that has to do with the technology right, the fact that the technology only lends itself to that initial process of data collection, but that afterwards there is a lack of access to that level of data and therefore reduction in the overall autonomy over the ownership of that data, at least for remote communities. So to answer that question that came in there. One is that the progressives to this kind of analysis or decision making phase there's much less representation, and the perspective of women in particular tends to be muted out by more dominant voices in that process. So in terms of project design being able to find a way that indigenous women can be included throughout the entire process is I think really key. And we're pointing out that even during the data collection phase that can be a challenge, frankly, to achieve the full participation. Often women in indigenous communities and other local communities as well, carry a higher level of responsibility for domestic or agricultural work. And so when mapping trainings or workshops are organized they're not always able to come or only able to come a few times. And at a certain point, it tends to be either the younger people or the men that take over that process. Which and then ends up leads to this unequal transmission of knowledge right. So, even though the project design was intended to be kind of more democratic and inclusive. In practice, it doesn't always play out that way, right. So it's important to ensure that any planned activities are grounded in these practical realities of daily life in the community. And if you are implementing a participatory mapping project to think about maybe extra investments to be made so that to ensure that women can participate in these activities in an equal manner. Maybe just one final observation is just to be careful about what kind of data is understood to matter when it comes to land in particular we're talking about land data today. And what I'd say here is that although different members of a community they may possess different kinds of knowledge based on their lived experience. When it comes to land data, it's often the knowledge of men that ends up being privileged for a variety of different reasons right some of that just has to do with patriarchy some of that is maybe because men have had more of an opportunity to travel through the land, because of their essentially their their profession as maybe as hunters for example or as resource gatherers. And so male knowledge. There's a tendency for that to be privileged. But women may also have a difference and complimentary form of knowledge about the land, which is often just as key for thinking about decisions around land management or land use planning. So when designing this kind of participatory mapping methodology. It's really important to make sure that the perspectives of women, and really also that of youths and elders and the entire, you know, corpus of the community is just as well represented and sometimes that takes an extra effort in thinking about the project design. Thank you for being able to put all of that condense all of that in your short answer and all the different questions as well. I have a second round of questions but I also see that there are other questions coming in through the Q&A as well and Danique. I actually want to go to next because there's a question from the audience. Members asking about your opening statement. The question said that you mentioned that data collection in indigenous communities, at least in I think in Bali that you were mentioning, they're done by women with some level of ability. What kind of ability and I'm assuming capacity. Can you explain a little bit more? I guess the person is asking if you need to have some level of qualifications or some knowledge or some, I don't know, access to technology or whatever abilities that they need to have in order to do the data collection. Can you explain a little bit more Danique? Thank you, what I meant is that based on our experience in data collection, the ability that I was talking about is women, they're more sophisticated in communication, in digging data. So this is where the important role for women between women and men so the collection of data is done more by women and after the collection of data, we also train them to process this data from spatial, the use of data and how to put this in written, how to put the written social data after we process it. Usually we invite academics, as Lydia mentioned, we invite academics to analyze the data that has been collected. The special data by, may that be the social cultural data, so it's not just the perspective of us indigenous people but the academic perspective, the view from this analysis. All members of the community, that's where we will then manage our spatial area. There are several villages whose cultural and customary is still very strong, so they build their own strategic development, so this is the involvement of youth, women, and the elderly of the village, because in Bali, even though the system is the patriarchy system but the role of women is much, very much needed in developing planning, so they will be involved in all, in the rights to develop or in the mapping of data and the women exist, women is there, so youth, mid-level or elderly, they're involved in these processes. After the process, in the data collection, in the planning, as we assist them to push this towards the government policy, but more often this action failed because the government has its own spatial management, so this is what needs to be synchronized in the space management within the government. We have done this several times to push for indigenous village spatial development towards to be included by the government, and all these processes, even though they still below ideal, but the involvement of women are really needed, and this is what we meant by what we need the capacity, as long as they need and they can put aside their time for these processes. So, there's a question about how women can access this. Now, right now, in Indonesia, there is what we call SID or Village Information System, so they can access this within the village level. If it's a customary village can be accessed there too, so not all women want to be involved or access data, so they need to be represented that they say that they need this data or that data. So, it's not about how, it's not about the limitation, or they be limited, but actually it's the limitation within their own customary to access data. This is where we come in, so how we can help them to access data, to use data, the mapping. Those are our tasks on the field to help these community to how they can use and collect and use and they can benefit from the data and the mapping. Now, and we, as I said earlier, our ancestor has inscriptions, but now the youth, I don't use that, they are digital community, so we try to make these adjustments that is currently being used in Indonesia, which is a one map system. That's what we have done so far. Thank you. Yeah, sorry. Thank you so much, Denic. Sorry to interrupt. I believe Batti has joined us from the field. Is that correct? Can I get confirmation if Batti has joined us? If so, would like to hear from Batti. Batti, are you there with us? Okay, maybe not. Let me go back to regular scheduling. In that case, while we try and see if Batti is still able to join us in the last few minutes. Lydia, just very quickly, there's another question as well in terms of getting more youth involved in, you know, in terms of data collection, but also just, you know, maintaining and I guess land tenure rights for indigenous people. Is there a strategy to have more people involved? Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah. Yeah, intergenerational involvement in land data, land based data is really vital to this work. So we definitely are losing our knowledge holders and experts at alarming rates, but making sure that we have more educational programming about teaching youth about cultural sites, about how we refer to plants, animals, our non-human kins, all of that is really vital. But I also think that youth play a really significant role because they've always existed with these data ecosystems, these very rich data environments that we have today. So our vital role is really how do we build technologies and infrastructures that support the needs and priorities of our communities, as well as survive within these digital environments. And I think that's the power of education. That's why I'm in a researcher and a professor or a teacher is because of those pieces. So it goes that it's an intergenerational piece where we need elders there to be able to tell us the pieces of the ecosystem that we don't know, or help us understand what was once there to envision what's possible. And so I think that those go hand in hand and far too often, both of those sides of the spectrum, the elders and the youth are often left out of these conversations, but I think that they play the most important roles. Thank you. Thanks for that Lydia. Okay, we're going to try again, because Betty apparently is online, she's just having issues with her audio. So, Betty, can we, can we check if you if you are around. Like I said, you know, Betty is she was, she's a teacher leader. She was the president of Puerto Rico community before and then she is now the first woman president of the Federation of Native communities. In the region of Loreto in Peru, and you know Betty's known for being a very tech savvy environmental defender and you know that's why we're having trouble connecting to her today because she is out in the field doing the difficult work. Betty, can you hear us and are you there. I'm thin, I think Betty would need some translation but she hasn't worked out how to do the translation. So, if one of the Spanish translators can just join and translate to Betty to figure that out for her. Thanks. That would be fantastic. Thank you so much Eleanor. Yes, can we can we receive help from a Spanish translator perhaps even on the English channel that Betty is possibly in to to see if you can translate to her how to select the Spanish channel. That would be really helpful. Thank you. Betty. Where there's access. That would be great just very briefly. Yes, thank you Diana. Can you just repeat what you would like me to ask her I'm sorry then. Oh just tell her how to access the translation button on the zoom so that she can then hear us and be able to speak. Okay, and that's the question is for the information is for Betty Betty. Betty. Hi Betty. I'm Diana. Can you hear me Betty can you hear me. Yes, I can hear you Diana. That's he can you select at the bottom of your screen. There is a globe that says interpretation. Touch. If you press on that globe, you can choose the language you wish to hear if you want to listen to Spanish. We will have interpretation in Spanish. You can listen in English, etc. Can you find it Betty. Can you find the interpretation button. Yes, yes, yes. I'm in the Spanish channel. Are you in the Spanish channel. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Okay Betty's in the Spanish channel. Fantastic thank you so much Diana for all of that help and everybody else behind the scenes is making sure that this work that he very very welcome to you even though you're joining us in the last 15 minutes. Thank you to give you a chance to speak we've been talking about, you know how to get indigenous woman involved in data collection and use and empower them, you know, it would be great to hear some of your experiences in terms of some of the challenges for indigenous women and what are some, what are the things that can be done to improve the situation. Good morning everyone sorry about being late. But it was because of the signal. What I do would like to say is that indigenous women, honestly, they have gone through. It is very difficult for indigenous women to have higher roles or access to certain things we do not we are not free to represent other people or other women in public spaces. So that's a great challenge. However, I believe that if we promote women being trained and to have greater opportunities to go out and see other experiences to share experiences with other women who are doing more things it would be a great challenge. It would be a great help. So we make it have access to those spaces which is already difficult. But yes, we do need somebody or maybe we will need some events, more meetings where we can invite more women that can participate and therefore will have a great, a greater opportunity to strengthen some skills in different spaces from our community from our local spaces and if there's a possibility to have virtual meetings like we are having at the moment that would be a great achievement for women to for other women to also are in the following. Thank you very much. So glad to have you. And thank you so much for joining despite, you know, being in the field and having issues but signal. We don't have that much time and we still have a couple more questions and we want particularly we want to make sure that we answer questions from the participants. So this is a question. Let me read it out. It says, you know, right now, because the participatory and inclusive process is inculculated in community processes, such as data gathering. How does this help women in securing their land rights, particularly in cases where they're not allowed to own or even have rights over lands. So we have a practical example of how, you know, these this process can help women. What Lydia I was wondering whether there's, you know, we speak briefly and you say you don't necessarily have an example but you know you can talk about the general issues around it so be great to hear from you and, you know, I think Danique, Rudo Betty if you want to answer this question as well after Lydia I'll come to you. Thank you. Yeah I just think that it's a really vital question. Since today our conversation is around women in land rights, and I think making sure that we're really clear about identifying some of the factors of this so that violence against the land and violence against women are interrelated. We see that in man camps and up here we see that with domestic violence issues. So this violence happening externally and internally within communities is a really important piece. But I also see empowerment that I feel like it's these collectives of indigenous women landholders that are happening you see some great examples in the Bay area of women led land trust and land buying back land as a collective that are really empowering pieces. And specifically in regards to these places where women don't have land rights, how do we get above that and that's where I think that some of these economic factors and organizations that are wanting to support land back movements, really putting their funds towards indigenous women led initiatives and I do think we often talk about the spectrum of indigenous but I think indigenous women led are really important pieces because we're often the communities that are most marginalized in land discussions. Thank you so much Lydia, I just wanted to I have a couple more questions but I wanted to ask if anybody else wants to join. Yes, I do like to add something. Yes, please go ahead. In that case, I think it is important for women to participate as I said before there are organizations that are promoting women's participation and that is important. It's important also to strengthen that for other women to participate and to be able to gain the gain land rights, of course, women are very vulnerable. And, however, the important thing is that in indigenous communities, women are the core thing because women are on the top of everything that is happening in the community and what we're leaving behind for our future generations so there are discussions that can strengthen these organizations based on women led organizations that is important so we can give more opportunities for women to assume those roles and to have those space available for them. Great, thank you so much. Bruno, can I just ask if you have any specific examples that you might be willing to share if you remember any, you know, because the question was asking whether there are any practical examples. Yeah, I think so. Just briefly I can frame this question just in terms of, you know, mapping for land rights and tenure, which is also what we focus on at cadastra. And, you know, I think there's sometimes a tension between on the one hand introducing a participatory mapping project that allows communities to map the things that are important to them and to really focus on those cultural values that were mentioned earlier. On the other hand also the requirements for formal land demarcation which sometimes may feel like an outside of position something that comes from the state apparatus, rather than something that's reflecting the community's internal perspective on their land, which is I think kind of related to this question and you know the two goals are not opposed and there's some great methodology set I'm thinking of from South America in particular kind of speak to this like the plan to be the approach, which starts by asking the broad questions about what the territory used to look like, what it looks like today, and what we want it to look like. And these kinds of broad framing questions enable different community members to speak to those different kinds of things so when you're thinking about what the territory used to look like, you're not just thinking about elders but especially elders have a lot to offer in that perspective. Then when you get to questions like what it looks like today. That's where you start to have different members of the community, like for also women being able to contribute on the nature of land management and what the community and the territory looks like. And then when you're thinking about what we want it to look like. That's almost a question that's targeting the youth right and the coming generations and the territory that we want to leave behind for the coming generations. I think it's a really good example of an approach that can really frame the questions around land management, and even thinking about land rights. Because asking these kinds of questions ensures that the discussion stays focused on that indigenous point of view the territory and it captures all of the voices, including women, but then it also yields concrete plans of action, right about which the land the community wants to map, protect and hold collectively so it's a way of getting at land tenure and land rights, while still making sure that you're answering those questions from an indigenous point of view, and getting all of the input from all of the different members of the community, including women. Great. Thanks, Rita. We are actually running out of time, but there's quite a few more questions, and I want to take as many as possible so I'm going to throw, you know, three, you know, questions, and I will just let any of the speakers just take them into one they want. So three questions, and I think they're quite interesting one. One is, can somebody give an example of how community gathered data can be used, and what would women bring to to that process exactly. That's number one, number two. Is the risk associated with data collection by indigenous women. I think that's interesting. Are there any risks, particularly I guess in, you know, communities where women, you know, are not allowed to go to land or whether they're very conservative are they are are there risks associated if indigenous women collect data. And the third one is, you know, inclusion, you know, how do we deal with this feelings where in some communities perhaps women feel that things like land registration process and data collection and data usage is the man's role. How do we overcome that. So three interesting questions that I'm throwing at you in the last four or five minutes of the session. Example of how community gather data can be used and specifically what women would bring second risk associated with data collection by indigenous women and inclusion how do we overcome perhaps the feeling that perhaps this is the role for men. Betty, I want to come to you first, feel free to take any of these questions or, or, or, you know, just one or if you can condense all the answers in one go that would also be great. And then the Nick I'll come to you after Betty and then Lydia and Rudo, if that's okay. Betty, would you like to go first. How to deal with this information. Well, women in my territory, we are doing monitoring in the indigenous communities in all the communal area that we are surrounded by we have communal assemblies according to the, the information that we collect from the forest. So through those assemblies we discuss and we make decisions about what is going to happen with our territory what is happening at the moment with our territory that's what we do in the communal assemblies and we do some decision making so the community can manage according to the problems that we run into the territory. And those two gender equality women are not being given the chance to go into the territory but it is important for for us for women to do the work. So we can show our children that they have to know in depth their territory what is happening within it. And another thing is that the conflicts and the risks that we run into. In the work that we do certainly as women have some hardships when we do this type of work, we are written because of the things that we have complained to you know environmental issues and legal login money. So we as women are very concerned, and that is so great risk that as women and even myself I had gone through that I myself threatened to be a spokeswoman for the community from the community itself, and I've been defending the territory of indigenous communities but that has never limited me that has never I could have continued fighting and raising my voice in this case that we have to see the possibility for women to have opportunities to strengthen our capacities to all the women can come by continue the work that we do. Thank you Betty, Denik, your, your final thoughts before we wrap up to those questions. Thank you. Thank you in for the time. Let me just add. It's a little different in Bali because we in Bali. This is small community it's not very big so we're so all the space in Bali has been in the indigenous village how the right between men and women. They're married, so that's become it's unified so what becomes the right of a man becomes the right of the wife so the access to land is something is unified so the Balinese don't just look at land and in individual way but all has been governed. To us in Bali this has been determined and sometimes because this there is there is a infrastructure development the need. We understand with that me with the investment that come that comes in that flow in. But there's also a question. What are the risks to women for women if they're not involved in this processes for us in Bali, maybe the risk maybe there's little minimalist risk. We don't feel that yet, but in general this is if the women are not active, this will in itself close the access but the space is always open for women to be involved. But, so, yeah, so this is very little risk here because we don't have mining here but in the household itself. There might be a little disruption. If, if the women is not involved or not being involved in these processes. So, thank you what's happening in our household here in Bali. Okay, thank you to Nick. Lydia. Yeah, I think I'll answer the question about what are the risks associated with data collection by indigenous women. And I think I would just summarize that I think it's recognizing the risks of being an indigenous woman and going out into the world and that there are going to be associated with that I've been field outfield sampling and got harassed and propositioned for things that may be really uncomfortable while without been outfield sampling in California, you know so I think it's recognizing that these risks exist everywhere. And that a lot of, a lot of these are environments that weren't designed for women or for indigenous peoples. So I think recognizing that those can be compounded risks associated in these spaces. And then when you go into places that also have more political contention that those risks just get amplified. I hope that answers that question. Thank you. Yeah, no, that's great. Thank you. Yeah, just quickly add to also the risks question that's where my mind went to as well. And I think a lot about, you know, data extractivism in general when it comes to indigenous communities of course historically there's been a lot of that which Lydia spoke to. And that's why the indigenous data sovereignty movement is so important, you know, when thinking about technology and methodologies and ensuring that communities are in the driver seat at all times when it comes to their data and have full decision making power over who has access and who doesn't. And I think the same thing applies to that of indigenous women when it comes to their data is perhaps a greater risk in so far as potentially indigenous women may not be involved in those final decision making process of what gets to be done with the data. So even internally there could be a risk of extractivism where you know indigenous women's data is used somehow for making certain decisions about the land but they're not involved in those processes right. So even I think internally there's potentially some risks about that. And I think the best way to really mitigate that is just to enable communities to create their own data methodologies and solutions as much as possible, and to not rely on kind of outside approaches or tools. Those can be useful but they're often not really serving communities in the ways that they want to and demand to. So I think that's one way of mitigating that with the risk silver main of course. Thank you. Thank you for for for not only talking about the risks but also how to mitigate them that's really helpful. Unfortunately, we have run out of time we're four minutes over. We did start a couple of minutes late so I guess, you know, we're forgiven but we do need to end the event right now so you know, I would just like to say thank you so much to all of our speakers who joined from all corners of the world. Right back connections different time zones and everything. Can we give them a virtual round of applause please for all of their insights and to helping us understand this whole issue around data better. And of course, thank you to the audience as well for your participation. We would also like to thank our host at the fort foundation, the land portal foundation, the tenure facility and the Thompson Readers Foundation it's been a real pleasure for me to moderate this event. Thank you to the audience for all the questions that we weren't able to take, but we hope that this is just the beginning of the conversation around data and indigenous women, and that you will hopefully continue this conversation in other avenues as well. So, have a great day afternoon and evening or night. Goodbye. Thank you.