 Good afternoon, a very warm welcome to you all, it's a beautiful day here in Dublin and I hope you're all keeping well and staying safe. My name is Joyce O'Connor and I chaired the digital group here at the IIEA, and I'm delighted to welcome you to our webinar today which asks the question, digital to drive Irish and European recoveries, a rhetorical question, but I'm delighted that we are joined to discuss this with Kasper Klum, who's the Vice President for European Government Affairs at Microsoft. Kasper, thank you so much for being with us today. We're delighted to see you and I know you've had a very busy schedule so we're really pleased to welcome you to the IIEA and we look forward to your presentation. Kasper will speak for around 20 minutes and then I will go to your audience for questions. We'll have around 20 minutes for questions today. Please join in our discussion with Kasper using the Q&A function on Zoom, which is at the end of your screen. I'd really appreciate it if you give your name and designation when you ask a question. I really appreciate that and thank you so much. Please also join us on our discussion on Twitter using the handle at IIEA. Over the last year, I think I can safely say that we are all preoccupied with COVID-19 and its effects. It is certainly true for European and Irish leaders. I've never seen how digital and emerging technologies have helped us address some of the COVID-19 issues. Digital transformation occurred at a pace. Many were surprised how individuals, agencies, systems adapted so quickly. All governments, including Ireland, look to secure economic recovery now and the EU is embracing both the green and digital agenda. So it is timely to place technology and emerging technologies at the heart of societal and economic planning. Kasper will argue that the remarkable cluster of technology companies and world-leading research centres located in Ireland provides a unique opportunity for Ireland to emerge as Europe's digital leader. EU President and European policy makers are seeking to foster a green economy with tech policy. The digital agenda is at the centre of the European recovery agenda. Kasper will discuss with us how the role of digital solutions technologies can play a core role in economic recovery. He will discuss the question, can Ireland build on a successful export-oriented enterprise model with three additional attributes, such as digital policy leadership, innovation, transformation? Can Ireland provide leadership to a digital partnership across the Atlantic with the US? And will Ireland become Ireland's digital leader for 2025? Can we make this ambition a reality and in the process transform Ireland's society and economy on the way? So Kasper, as we were saying earlier, this is a very timely presentation, and you have the background, expertise, vision, and indeed passion to ask these questions. Kasper is a Marshall Memorial Fellow. Prior to joining Mark Russoft, he served as Denmark's and the world's first ambassador to the global tech industry. His duties include ambassador to Indonesia, Timor-Leste, Papua New Guinea, and ambassador to Cyprus. Kasper worked in several posts within the Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and also served as head of the European Union's Civil Crisis Management in Kosovo. He is currently Microsoft Vice President for European Government Affairs, with responsibility for all of Microsoft's government affairs and public policy work across the EU. He serves also on the senior leadership team of Microsoft's corporate, external and legal affairs groups. In 2018, Kasper was named among the world's 100 most influential people in the digital environment. You are very welcome again, Kasper, and we look forward to your presentation. Well, thanks a lot, Joyce, and don't believe everything you read, but it's a pleasure to be with you today. Very impressive, though, Kasper, we have to say. Not at all. I pay people to afford those information, but anyway, thanks very much for saying. As we just discussed before going live, I think the only thing that is said about today is that we aren't able to be together in Dublin. I have been looking forward to that and some of my super good colleagues, Katrina and Kiran from Microsoft and Ireland, we'd actually postpone this visit so that we could make sure they could happen in person, but that's where we are, Joyce. But it's a pleasure to be with you. Thank you. I think I will talk a little bit to begin with and whether I will reach the 20 minute mark, I don't know, but then we can have a few more questions perhaps at the end. And Joyce, perhaps if I can begin by saying that one of the reasons that we are virtually visiting Ireland is that in many ways I think we are at a pretty crucial moment in Europe's history and to some extent also an individual member states including in Ireland. And if I was a little bit cheekier, I would say all the questions you asked in the beginning, Joyce, the answer is yes to all of the above. Yes, I think Ireland can play an incredibly important role. Yes, I think the approach to technology that Ireland is playing is important, not only in Dublin, but also in Brussels. And yes, I think as we look at a world where, let's be honest, we have to rebuild and reconstruct the transatlantic relationship. I think a country like Ireland can play an incredibly important role. But just to sort of start off where you teed us off, Joyce, I think when you look at the world here in 2021, and looking back at a very, very particular year, not an easy year, but certainly a year where we've been struggling, not only with with COVID-19 and the immediate impact of the global pandemic but also and how do we set in motion, sort of the preparation for a digital decade if you like because I think one of the conclusions that many of us have come to. I count myself in that category, also before joining the private sector before joining Microsoft. It is that digitalization and technology is going to be a major game changer, primarily for good. And it's going to ultimately transcend every part of our society, every single sector, every single industry and that's one of the reasons why we have to take this, and not as an issue on the outskirts of government or governance, but really as something that is mainstream and we need to focus a lot more on. And we've been through some very, very difficult months and unfortunately we're still not completely through I'm sitting in Brussels where we just had introduced a new lockdowns a few days ago because of a rising numbers. And there's also evident as we struggled with COVID-19 that had we not had the 21st century technology that we have today, we will probably be facing an even more difficult situation. We have lost thousands of jobs across Europe. We have people that are struggling, you know, I have two teenage boys at home. And I think they've been doing as well as they could, but it hasn't been easy for them as a remote schooling and remote education. But the alternative, I think to having a situation where that is possible would have been much more devastating both at individual level, but also for our economies that would probably have contracted even more we would have seen an even greater loss of jobs. It's also evident that these technologies have been instrumental in making sure that we've been able to handle the immediate impact of the pandemic in the way that we have. Whether it's helping first line responders at hospitals, whether it is making sure that the scientists and researchers involved in the vaccination programs they have access to, you know, frontline machine learning technologies that have helped them move. And I think it's really quicker in the development of the vaccines that we now see rolled out that has been a game changer in so many ways. It has also, and this is why I want to be quite honest, revealed. I think that I think European decision makers have been struggling it for starting with for many, many years and that is Europe's role in an increasingly bipolar, digitalized the world where especially the US but also Asia and increasingly plays a very, very important role and I think there has been a feeling both before COVID-19 but certainly perhaps gain new momentum during COVID-19 of the fact that Europeans in Europe is incredibly dependent on technology that is not developed and deployed inside the European Union but comes from the outside. And that brings me to, I think, one of the topics that we really want to talk about today. And that is the discussion around digital sovereignty or strategic autonomy, whatever you want to call it. This feeling in Europe of being dependent on technologies that come from the outside and perhaps a feeling of lack of control or perhaps a feeling that we're not building, you know, the startups and the entrepreneurs that we want we're not scaling those companies to the level where they become global companies with with a massive impact on the outside. And I think, you know, there are two ways to approach this discussion one is to say, and that's how it is. And we need to make sure that we focus on those aspects. And I think another way of looking at it is to say that there are really good reasons why you have this discussion unfolding in Europe, and as a global technology company we have an incredibly big responsibility to try and make sure that we help and assist Europe. And that's to stay a global power, making sure that we help Europe recover from COVID-19 create the jobs of tomorrow. In other words, I think it is very appropriate for us to acknowledge that the sovereignty debate or the digital sovereignty is here for good, valid, legitimate reasons and we have to make sure that we align ourselves with with this new reality. And that in many ways is part of what we formulated in Microsoft in Europe as a campaign we call take fit for Europe. And of course that's just a clever way of responding to to the European Commission's Europe fit for the digital age vision. But it is actually more than just a fancy slogan it is, I would say a mindset of how we make sure that the technology we develop the technology we deploy in Europe that that is fully aligned with European values European traditions and European aspirations. And it's not a small thing because for example when you look at the discussions around privacy or more recently about cybersecurity. These are issues that I would say almost existential to to Europe. And it matters a whole lot that we take those discussions with us back home and we focus on what we can do to make sure that there is trust with the technology that we deploy. I mean our motto inside Microsoft is that technology runs in trust. And I think from my friends from my family, it is so easy to dismantle that trust with a few difficult handlings of for example data, etc. And I think that's one of the key lessons that we have to take with us that we make sure that we focus on these areas. I think the other side of of COVID-19 the other positive if you like aspect that has come forward is of course the dual focus on the dual transit transformation of both going digital and also focusing on sustainability. And I had the pleasure to meet with a number of Irish ministers and officials over the last couple days. And I think it's been really reassuring to see how rounded the discussion around sustainability and climate change is an island as well. The island being one of the epicenters of foreign direct investments, including by we have a massive presence in Ireland, we have data centers as has some of our competitors. But I think the focus we have both an island in Dublin but also at the European Union level is now that we have to make sure as we digitalize our countries and again we have to do that. Not because we think it's interesting or nice to, but because it is absolutely necessary to compete in a global digitalized world. But as we do that we have to ensure we do it in a way which is consistent with fighting climate change and making sure that we do it in a sustainable way. So I think that's one of the few positive things you could say that has been the outcome of COVID-19. When you put all of this together so you know COVID-19, the digitalization of our societies, if you combine that with, you know, the dependency on on perhaps a lot of foreign technology. And then you add to the mix, something that I think is top of mind in Dublin and I'm sure Joyce you've spent a lot of time on Brexit. And then I think you have to some extent that the perfect storm or the perfect mix where it is only natural that the European Union. Also with the European Commission that has been on office a bit more than a year now is now beginning to pick up pace and rolling out a fairly impressive or frightening regulatory agenda depending on where where you're sitting. I think one of the aspects that we've also been discussing with with Irish decision makers in the last couple of days is of course, this regulatory wave or regulatory freight train. How do we make sure that that is focused on defending core European values defending, you know, Europe's ability to take its own decision, but doing it in a way which is consistent with what Europe has always been about. An open market, free trade, strong on human rights strong on fundamental rights, but always looking to to deal with the outside world always having a strong link towards the US. And I think that is the only area where we've been perhaps a little bit cheeky with with some of the Irish ministers and saying we would love to have a bigger Irish voice. Certainly in Dublin but also in Brussels and across Europe because we are at a moment where defending that approach to European history is certainly something that we feel is quite important. And with Brexit. I think the traditional forward leaning digitalized countries have lost an ally, let's be honest about that, which perhaps has tilted the balance in Europe, a little bit in a different direction where there is more focus on making sure that we, we defend the European approach. And what I think both as a European but also representing the company that I do, it will be incredibly important in the next months and the next couple of years that we get those regulations right. They will increase accountability and scrutiny, including on a company like Microsoft, we welcome that, and it won't always be easy for us to comply with the new regulations but whether we talk sustainability or we talk cybersecurity we think that is a scrutiny or a requirement that we just have to live up to because that is a core part of making sure that we have trust in in our new technologies that we have trust in using the opportunities that the digital age will also bring about it. And it is going to be important that all voices will be heard across Europe in this direction. And again, if I if I just turn back to the beginning of our conversation. And what we spend a few days in Dublin talking to, to the Irish government about. I do think that I islands sort of history and its experience with attracting investments by focusing on how Ireland can also be sort of a beacon of hope in a broader sense creating the jobs of tomorrow, transitioning society into a digital direction is going to be incredibly important. And I think, George, you sort of asked three, or you pointed to three areas that we think are important so the digital transformation I think is where Ireland can be helpful also making sure that Europe will will say its course. I think focusing on making sure that connectivity will will reach everybody because without connectivity it is very difficult to be part of the digital economy. There are areas where we're doing fantastic work together with Ireland on broadband connectivity. Interesting things happening right now where more rural area, more less connected areas where they're now being hooked up so that you have the students and schools that can get connected, a broader populations can get connected. Those are examples that we would like to use and scale, not only across Europe but in fact across the world because I think this digital divide that we very often talk about is going to be one of the main challenges for all of us as we look into the next decade. And similarly to what we've seen with previous challenges or prizes, not being connected today is such an existential issue that I think we have to do our best to make sure that we invest in connectivity in Europe but also outside Europe. And then you mentioned Joyce, the question of policy. And, and, you know, being a person who've been dealing with policies for a few years in this area. This is this is one point where I think we just have to acknowledge that the pace of development of these new technologies is the gap between where our policies are today and where technology is that that gap hasn't been reduced to some extent to some extent it has been expanding. So I do think we have to invest both from the public sector but also in the private sector in bringing a new generation of decision makers up to speed with digital policies that we will need tomorrow. And it's one of the reasons why we've teamed up with with UCD and developing a program in, in, in Ireland in Dublin. And I can tell you I've had several of my own team members attend that course. And I want to give credit to my own team member Kieran for really driving this program program forward. And I think that's just an example to be used in a lot of other places. I wish I could have taken that course a few years ago to some extent I should still take it, because I think I could learn quite a lot about how we work together and defining the policies of tomorrow. If I just end up with one word that I think is going to be absolutely critical in in everything we're going to do. That word is going to be multi stakeholderism, because I think this is in many ways where the 21st century or these 2021 might be different than the world we knew 10 or 20 years ago, because many of the challenges we face are whether it's on education, skilling, whether it's on sustainability, whether it's on cybersecurity, whether it's on privacy, those are issues that cannot be solved either by the private sector or by the public sector and isolation. We have to work together. We have to find common solutions. We have to make sure that we all act in a responsible way. And in many ways, I think that's what what we're what we're facing what we're looking at in the next couple of years and decades perhaps so I'll finish up with with the first sort of short introduction on this and be very happy to answer any easy questions that you have the difficult ones we can say for other times. Thank you so much, Casper. I think you ended on a very positive note of working together and and that complex nature of technology. There's so many stakeholders. But can I bring you back first to the that first comments of the first comments you made about digital sovereignty and the importance of that for Europe and for Ireland, you know, for the whole of the European community in terms of autonomy, but also perhaps that issue of collaboration and working with others, particularly the US, particularly also because of the dominance of China and bringing in your really strong focus on values and trust. Is the retention there between that digital sovereignty and the idea of developing a stronger EU US partnership. You will be shocked Joyce, when I say I don't think there is a contradiction or tension between between the two of them, or at least I would say I don't think there should be. Because I think it is only natural again going back to what I mentioned early on that Europe wants to further develop its skill sets its competences but frankly speaking also defend its role in the world. And I do think there is sort of a couple of different approaches to technology one is based on, you know, the free market very limited regulation where you can do more or less whatever you want. Perhaps another version of it where there was very heavy involvement of the of the public sector and defining, you know, the technology application of tomorrow, and then I think there is a European way. And you will probably very often hear from the private sector that regulations are something we don't enjoy. We, we, to some extent I think I perceived as wanting to to fight back on regulation I think that's a misconception, because I think if you get regulations right. It clarifies. I would say how it operates and what is required for us to operate in those markets and I would just say, you know, going back to one example that I that I often enjoy I'm Danish as you can hear from my heavy accent. And of course we we went through a sustainability transition in Denmark, dating all the way back to the 1970s. But it's quite interesting, especially my my former role representing the government how often, you know, I heard that it was done out of altruism and just because I think that, you know, Denmark focusing a lot on climate change and sustainability, where in fact, the reality is that this was driven by every regulation coming out of the government in the 1970s as a direct response to the oil crisis, which basically led to an existential crisis in Denmark, you cannot cope with the increase oil price and therefore you had to green the the economy and make that economy much more sustainable. Fast forward to the late 90s then you have a new, you know, sector with a lot of sustainable companies that are doing well on the global state. So I think, in many ways what the European Union is doing right now is increasing the requirements to everybody operating in Europe. And I think for us, that is an acknowledgement that digital sovereignty is not something uniquely European. I'm pretty sure, Joyce, if you went to New Delhi or if you went to Brazil or if you went to and asked you want digital sovereignty. I would be very surprised if they would say no, no, not particularly interested. I think, I think where the world is looking towards Europe is to define what digital sovereignty means in 2021. And I don't want this to sort of turn into a two historical discussion but in many ways I would argue that the European Union has always been a response to a particular set of challenges around sovereignty. You know the European Union is in many ways a response to the second world war. And as we've seen Europe integrate evolved over the last couple of decades. That has been about, you know, finding a way of maintaining the sovereignty while at the same time expanding sort of the sovereignty notion as we know it. And in many ways I think this is where Europe has a unique opportunity to also get the digital sovereignty right. Of course, in my view, that should happen together with with the United States. I do think we share a similar approach to, to the way we look at societies. And ultimately, this is about also defending I would argue that our democracies and besides societies we build over the last decades. You know, it's interesting. We had Roberto Viola here there in early in January, talking about digital sovereignty too. And, you know, there is, there isn't a common view of what that is but he kind of summed it up. I think you might be happy with it about empowerment and resilience that it gives you the empowerment to do things and the resilience to go with your values, your, your trust and so on. So I think maybe there is a change coming in that tension between regulation and innovation and making technology such a central part of of who Europe is and what we're doing. There's an interesting question here, if I can go to from from the Department of finance finance retired he says, does Casper agree that even if supplied by commercial interest broadband is now a public good and should be regulated again accordingly and universally provided. What are the obstacles here. Yeah. First of all, I'm happy that the robot to set something along those lines and just a final remark. Discussion. I think Commissioner Vista Agar, who is, of course, the executive vice president of European Commission have have said publicly that in her view, digital sovereignty is very much about regulatory sovereignty in other words, the ability of the European Union to set its independent of other interests. And I think that's the control dimension of sovereignty notion. And again, you know I'm a European, I get that I think it's, it's necessary I think it's fair. And I think for us in the industry. That is the starting point also when we engage, hopefully constructively discussing how do you get, you know the digital markets act or the data governance act or the digital services, right. But if you do that with a starting point where you say, we get why you're doing this. There is an issue with with gatekeepers there is an issue with with safety online. And, and sometimes that requires us to do things that are difficult or complex or expensive. But, but if it's doing the right thing, then I think that's the kind of partnership we would like with with Europe across across the board, then coming back to the question from the retired gentlemen. I wasn't too retired Casper but that's what he describes and sounds fast. It's interesting this discussion about public goods, because it actually goes back to to the high level panel on digital cooperation that the United Nations Secretary General established a couple of years ago and it was one of the communications coming out of the report saying, there are certain public goods that that we can compare with other public goods and in broadband connectivity was certainly among among those. So, so I think the short answer and I'm sure there's complexities around this is that, you know, investing in connectivity in broadband is going to be, you know, one of the key challenges of our time. We're on the board of a of a small company called Blue Town, and, and what they do is to try and connect the unconnected and they're focusing on developing economies very heavily engaged in Ghana and Africa, where they're trying to establish basically sort of expanded Wi Fi hotspots in in in rural villages, which means that the schools can get online, you can sort of serve the broader community also with access to basic health care, etc. And again, I think it just shows that, I think all of us have a responsibility in making sure that we make those investments, and that we also make it in a way where we get the last three and a half billion people online. If you want a cynical version of enjoys sitting here in Europe. I think the migration crisis that we saw a couple of years ago. And in many ways that was driven by perhaps, you know, poverty or escaping from conflicts, etc. I think we have to recognize that not having access to broadband today is what sets you apart. And will you have the possibility to have a job in the future or not in some extent in many areas in many states that will depend on your your connectivity so I think the short answers. We have to make sure that we increasingly treat connectivity as a public good. And whether we regulate it in such a way is perhaps, you know, you require a bit more insights than than I do, but I think the overall approach is clear. Yes, and I suppose you've shown by example Microsoft has, as you said worked with people I know in Ireland here. There are a number of initiatives you've taken around broadband. And it is one that everybody agrees should happen. So it's actually working together again isn't it with the public and private sector to ensure that can happen in a way that's positive and inclusive to all all people in in society. And that's particularly critical. And the question here from Ashton and Kelly, from the Office of the DPP. And can you current regulatory response from various EU member states to online state safety, the example in Germany and France, and whether Microsoft would prefer a pan European response, which would require a change in law, rather than a more fragmented approach. I think she almost gave the answer herself. I think, you know, I'm a very big believer in the European Union, and therefore I'm probably also more on the side that I think Europe wide regulation in general is not a bad thing and I think it makes it raises sort of the I think we've seen the same on the environmental policies we've seen the same on sustainability policies so I think our general response would be, we will comply with all national regulations, completely, whether they're national whether the European level, is the most fast to work together with with the European institutions and have this kind of multi-stakeholder dialogue where we try and provide our insights. You know, we make available what we think is going to come in terms of new technology developments where we have challenges and, and, you know, complexities inside I think that is of course where where the European Union provides some some opportunities in terms of the size of Microsoft. Thanks for that, Casper. There's another question from Adrian Weckler who's from the Irish independent. What specific issues should Ireland be louder on at a European level. What are the barriers, the biggest barriers to European tech. Big question. I think it would be, you know, very inappropriate for me to refer to the conversations we've had with ministers over the last couple of days but I'll give it a shot at least trying to be a bit generic. And then Katrina and Kiran from from our office in Ireland can can kick me virtually under the table in the next couple of minutes. I do think that this range of the balance of power in Europe, if you like, with due to Brexit, it has had an impact. And again, I think when you look at the countries that we normally call the digital nine plus countries so the most digitalized countries in the European Union, traditionally the most most forward leaning tradition the ones that have been arguing for, you know, like regulation rather than heavy regulation. I think those countries have become a little bit more vocal, a little less vocal sorry in in Europe over the last perhaps 12 months to 24 months. And, and again speaking both as a European but of course also in the job that I have. And I think we want to make sure that those discussions taking into account various views across Europe. Those discussions are at the core of what is happening in Brussels, including when you're discussing the regulatory framework coming forward. But I also wanted to mention one specific initiative and that is the guy x initiative, which is about creating a federated cloud in Europe so it's very much about intro probability, making sure that customers can choose between different providers and yes we are of course one of the main providers of cloud technology in Europe. I think that's a discussion where, you know what originated in Germany then became sort of a Franco German initiative now it's reaching the European Union level. And getting that project right, and we've been a supporter from day one we've been a member of guys from day one. But of course, it, in our view that requires a lot of different voices and a lot of different experiences and I do want to again point out to I think a fairly unique situation that island is in because of the massive presence of technology companies because of the focus on the government on on on digitalization and then lastly, also because of the strong transatlantic I think island has the opportunity to play a really critical role in getting this right to the benefit of island. I think that's important to say as well, but also to the benefit of European Union and you know, all of us including myself that I would consider citizen in Europe. I mean, in a way, and thank you for that Casper this guy X project does that demonstrate how Europe can pursue digital sovereignty at the same time as digital openness do you think that is a good example of that. Dual approach of being open and yet looking at the autonomy and sovereignty and empowerment of Member States. Yeah, well, I think that should certainly be the aspiration. I mean, again, I think the idea is to create a market also for for cloud technology. And again, I just want to what do you what do you want that well it's because the cloud offers unprecedented opportunities and by the way, if I may just add this choice. I think there is a misconception that the cloud has bigger benefits for bigger enterprises when in fact we know that small and medium sized enterprises are the ones that benefits the most from going out because of efficiency opportunities but also because of access to technologies. Almost regardless of what what area that you in. And by the way, then you get better cyber security and it's also more sustainable solution than it is to have on premise servers in your in your basement. And, but I do think that, you know, moving forward with an ambitious plan of going to the cloud is very much also what the guys project is about and needless to say, that's something we embracing your whole heart. And combine that with the data governance act, which is another piece of regulation coming forward which is very much focused on the opportunities around data. And I think what is what is fantastic about those two projects in combination is that it really focuses focuses on the opportunity data. Not only the challenges and where we have to be very very cautious and there are areas where we have to be cautious because of the sensitivities of the data sets. And also about acknowledging that the data driven economy holds enormous potential, not based in a European context where we have, I think, you know, worldwide unique data sets, historic data sets that are sent to non on the global state. So I think the guy ex the data governance act. What we're seeing in many of the regulations coming up forward is very much also push of saying, we have to move in this direction, we have to take full benefit of what what the what the digital economy will bring up bring about. And for all companies, and I would say all governments, having a digitalization strategy is going to be absolutely critical for us in the next couple of years so I think we get the guy project I do think it's an operational operational way of looking at a digital sovereignty, we just want to make sure that that sovereignty will still make it possible for companies including Microsoft to participate and contribute to the economy of Europe by providing responsible technology that lifts up the high standards. Thank you Casper and I have a question here from Seamus Allen from the IAEA. And you discussed earlier the importance of trustworthy technology in fact it was a team all the way through your presentation. And the EU is due to release its proposals for trustworthy AI in April. What are your thoughts on establishing trustworthy AI, and the EU is thinking of the issue so far. Yeah, I think we know a little bit about what's coming because the EU launched a white paper a year ago, that sort of gave the indications of where the European Union might move on this one. And you know it's interesting including for companies like Microsoft because of course we believe that AI pulls again unprecedented potential unprecedented opportunities and identifying patterns and helping us, you know solve some of the global issues by the way including sustainability where we believe that AI is going to be one of the main game changers in looking ahead in the next couple of decades. But there are also areas where we have to be careful and cautious. And those are areas where it could have a huge impact on your fundamental rights, or it could create biases and decision making. And I think we've been among the first companies to say that facial recognition technology based in AI is a good example of technology that we really need to make sure that we have the proper regulations around to make sure that it cannot be misused by by anybody. So what we like about what we think will be in the draft regulation is a distinction between what I would say, what are we called sort of high risk applications of AI and non high risk applications of AI. It's a choice if you're probably a better person than I am but if you theoretically tonight would go home and would like to watch Netflix movie, you know, there will be AI providing some suggestions for you, and, and I will probably call those suggestions, you know, not really high risk application of AI. But there might be other examples where application of AI could have a fairly dramatic impact on on you as a citizen and your fundamental rights and those are the areas where we have to double down, and make sure that we have a very clear set of guardrails in defending, you know, the fundamental rights so so I think that's what we're hoping to have come out of the other proposal, but at the same time also making sure that AI is not seen as as an enemy or risk but rather as an enormous opportunity not least in a place like Europe. Last but unfortunately, we could keep you here for much longer, but time has caught up with us. So thank you very much for your presentation I think you made a number of really key points, one of which I think we've heard loud and clear about the voice of Ireland. And thank you for that confidence that you feel that we can have that voice and the importance of strategy to ensure that that will happen. Also, the emphasis on trust and values and, and appropriate rules to help us negotiate through the very, I suppose, challenging areas of technology that we don't fully understand as yet but are going to make such a difference to our lives, which it clearly showed on three areas at least as sustainability cyber security, David privacy, what can be done both in a sustainable but also for tech policy. We would have loved to talk to you about other areas like skills because I know you're very, very interested in that. But thank you very much again, and I'm sure we will invite you back. Hopefully, things will be better, and we can invite you in person to Dublin so thank you very much again. Casper that was really very important to us and an excellent presentation. Thank you very much.