 Hello everyone, this is Ross at teacher talk at the most influential blog on education in the UK today. I am delighted to be joined by Erica Maldonado Erica. Good morning to you and in the East Coast or the West Coast I should say. Hi, good morning. It's a pleasure to be here. So for listeners, Eric and I follow each other on Instagram and some people over in the UK might not be familiar with your work Erica, you're a kind of EdTech online specialist higher education particularly can you tell a little listen a little bit more about you and what you do. Yes, absolutely. So I work for an online education company called to you. And we produce, we work with universities to put their, but to put their content online so we have I work on the degree side focusing on on putting graduate degrees online, but there are parts of the company that also focus on short courses and more and short different types of approaches to online learning so I'm on the degree side. And my background is my master's is in learning technologies so it's really been something that I've studied been saying for quite a while I got that about 10 years ago and then I, I also have my doctorate and organizational change and leadership and in my background training teams to build effective online learning. So it's been quite a ride I really love this field. Yeah, so well let's go straight to the kind of online technology so you've been doing that for a number of years so I guess the switch during the pandemic COVID was relatively straightforward for you and I suspect your expertise was in in great demand. Absolutely. I will say one thing that has been frustrating me about the pandemic and online learning is that because we have programs coming in. I'm not saying my company I'm just saying online learning as a whole some programs have had to come into online learning so quickly and really just have to adapt to this to the technology just quickly and coming in and I think that's frustrated learners and, and instructors because they've had to learn this new technology and and really that doesn't really aid in how they teach. So why that frustrates me is because being in the field for so long, I know that to produce a great high quality online course it really takes some time. Generally I would say about a year or so to produce something that's really great. And that's because you give so much thought into making sure that the content that you're producing online for your asynchronous components. They're all really tied to the goals of the course that takes a lot of thought. And then the other part of it too is planning that synchronous live session time tying it in with the asynchronous components and then developing assessments, formative and summative that that give the students opportunity to really develop their learning in the course. So there's all these different components that take take some time so I think the pandemic has shown us are really highlighted that the online learning space. Putting a course online it isn't just turning on your camera and teaching saying hey let's go. So in your kind of experiences over the last year, generally you know the teachers and kind of colleagues or students even around you. How's the bell curve been high anxiety high workload at the beginning as it kind of settled down with it still just as stressful. I would say it's just it's just about the same. Just, I think the good thing about the company that I work with now is online learning it's really what it's what we do so having more programs come in is certainly giving more work to the company and kind of as to that stress going up and down but it's it's something that I think we've had to you know manage previously. Right. So part of my show Erica, I like to get to know who I'm interviewing and so I'd like to just unpick your 16 year old self what do you like at high school. In high school high school Erica was. I think I was reserved and really just finding myself I think I was. I was one thing that I didn't know at that point in high schools that I did want to go into some some sort of production. So that ended up being educational media production working in tech but I had the I was in the TV production program at my high school Notre Dame high school instrument of California and luckily had a really good TV production program where I was able to produce some some some segments for our TV, our news channel there which was really fun but high school Erica, she had a lot of growing to do. What happened, I assume you've always been in California. So that's actually not not from down University you mentioned. Yeah. High school. That's the name. Okay. And so the degree was in tech specifically. University. My, yes, my master's university. So I have my bachelor's degree. I'm realizing that our, perhaps some of our education system is a bit different. My master's degree was was was in social and cognitive science and then my master's in learning technology, and then my doctorate was in organizational change and leadership. Fantastic. Now, the reason we got in touch was because then I saw you posting a bit of content about cognitive load theory and prior to coming on live we kind of shared that a lot of British teachers becoming quite interested in this cognitive research been around for a long, you know, a number of decades. Can you just unpick, or could I ask you to maybe summarize cognitive load theory for busy teachers in a minute or two, is that possible. Yes, absolutely. So cognitive load theory it's really referring to the fact that our working memory can only hold so much information. And so when we're teaching and I can talk about that, how that works especially online is we really want to focus on helping that working memory to really develop long term concepts and to do that we remove kind of the extra fluff from that so that a learning can really retain the information. And then learning that's been really important or how that's applied is a few different ways. So, I think one of the most immediate ways I can think of is when instructors for start teaching online, especially developing asynchronous content. And once the belief is that you can just lecture for an hour or two straight at your camera or maybe just film a lecture and that's great it's there for students, but that's not general that's not the case, especially with taking cognitive load into here and applying it. So, rather than lecturing for an hour or two hours or just posting something of yourself in your classroom you want to think about how you can segment the video to give the learners time to process. Let's talk about how you lay a layer out different I'll say chapters, let's say of that our lecture so rather than posting that 60 minutes of one topic. Let you want to take a look and see how can you segment it so there's different pieces maybe, maybe instead you, you do a five minute introduction on the topic that's one video. The next topic is kind of setting up the concepts for it. Chapter of the video is whatever the topic is and you're putting it up so that you're taking into account that learners cognitive load, not throwing in so much information right away. And then within that content to when developing asynchronous materials for online students another way that applies is we'll think about we can think about the swallows online media principles here we're really it's it's taking cognitive load into account. So I meant I talked through, we want to be careful to not just upload in our video we want to make sure it's segmented in different ways into shorter chunks, you know, maybe before you mentioned on a post some of five to seven minute video clips. Is that based on the research or analytics or what people are clicking on. It is based on research it is, you can find research there there is one particular article that I found really helpful by gentlemen go GUO on ed ed X, and he really focus those researchers. And I'm sorry to not be able to give you all of the names of the researchers but he really that article really focuses on showing the data behind behind that particular number. But I was going to say another another way cognitive load plays into this is within that video contents. There's another factory I want to think about, because you're not generally just talking to a camera you might have a point, or you know something something resources that that helped to visualize what you're speaking about so you want to also think about cognitive load in terms of those visuals. And really the basis of cognitive load is removing that those what we call extraneous factors things that really just take away from what the learner would want to grasp. And keep and focus on on on really making sure that the information those graphics or PowerPoints are simple we're not having a whole bunch of text everywhere. And that you're, you're being you're making sure to tailor. We've all been in those lectures right with lots of right. I'm assuming the color of the graphics or the text is also going to matter. Yes, I can speak. I'm there's definitely people out there that can speak a lot better about this in terms of the colors and how that relates to different screens and what looks better. But generally you want to make sure that their screen, you know screen reader friendly, because that's actually another part about accessibility is that if we have students that need to have materials so that they're accessible. On the on the technologies that they use to access our education. You know general tips for high school teachers what would be your recommendations with cognitive load in mind if they're just kind of delivering online zoom lessons, what would be your kind of top bit. Yeah, I think, yeah for for the zoom lessons and taking into account cognitive load. Again, I can, you can think about potentially not lecturing, you know directly for the hour two hours however long that is, and instead of breaking up your content into smaller pieces and then within those chunks you can in your zoom lessons. You can do breakout rooms. That's a great way to add in some active learning creating a really a more social environment for those students. And then that gives you the opportunity to to to give students some some some problem problem based learning activities within that too so not not only are you taking into account cognitive load by not let less lecturing let's say for just an hour but you're giving them the opportunity to apply. They're learning within breakout rooms by giving them problems based on the information that you're talking about and then having them solve it together within those breakout rooms. And do you, you know, being a tech specialist that you are. What are your particular favorite pieces of technology that you relied on throughout the pandemic. We use. Well the organization I work with has some proprietary tools that we use to build out the asynchronous components of the work that the students go through. So, I really use that that a lot. I think I'm trying to think of a tool that has stood out to me besides those. That's right. Well, I might pick your brains at the end. I'm really interested. I've just started my doctoral studies. I'm really interested to unpick yours. And you mentioned educational organization teams. Yes, organizational change in leadership. This is a silly question but just for listeners curiosity, could you give us a brief summary of your kind of focus and maybe your conclusions apologize for asking such a simple question. No, that's not a simple question at all I'm happy to talk about it. So the, I was really happy I will say that I wrestled a little bit to figure out which to great which what I wanted to get my doctorate and I knew I wanted to get it. And I thought I would get it in learning technologies, but it ended up being that my job offered a great benefit to pay for this doctorate. And the one that was with the closest to our learning technologies was organizational change and leadership and I was able to talk to the program. And I asked what can I focus my dissertation, you know, and learning technologies and it ended up being that the large part of that focus of the degree was also understanding and knowing learners and the motivation behind how we how we learn and the theories behind that so it was very, very applicable so my dissertation I focused on building, or in my, by the way it's an EDD so I focused really on building a framework for training teams on building effective learning technology so really laying laying out that whole, that whole structure. So, so back to the question of what the, what it was exactly is generally building, building teams really is is was the program really is building organization. And it's about your actual practice so did you do it full time part time full time full time so that was so it was great because I actually during my EDD, I use my department for that so when I say I built for my dissertation I had to build some really a lot of training. Use your resources around you. So I was able to interview a lot of people in my department figure out where the gaps were in the organizations what so as a big part of is identifying what the gap is in the team and and and what the vision and goals are of a department so I was able to identify that and then the result was building a, I was able to do with my colleagues build a course that focused on training the course development team on principles that are important. Because one thing I did identify actually in this part which was interesting is that the way our course developers on our team and just to reiterate the team that I work on that I manage their course developers that they work together with university to put university degrees online. And so we work really closely with them to develop talk through what their goals are of the course and talk through what are the best modalities to produce to create these great courses. So one thing that I realized when I was talking to a lot of people is that the way we define success in in developing these courses, generally was are the faculty happy at the end of the course development with process but yes that is a that is a definitely a big success metric, especially in terms of business but really at the end of the day, the students are the success metric is are we reaching the, are we making sure that the students are learning what they're supposed to be learning. So this was part of the switch that I wanted to make that we needed to make in the department was making sure that success metric was was not only highlighting the, the, the satisfaction of the people that we're working with but also that we're highlighting in the department that achieving the students academic goals. Now it sounds I'm very fascinating. When did you complete your studies. 2018 so almost relatively recently now I'm a lot of teachers in the UK getting really excited about getting interested in research. What would be your top tip for a teacher who's maybe a kind of kind of bachelor degree level maybe a master's degree and wants to start to get into some academic research, you know, particularly swellers paper for example, and what would be your tip for those busy people. I have it's hard for me to say that because I think I have been bad at taking my own tip, because I have gotten myself sucked into a lot of research articles, just downloading them and trying to synthesize things, even if they didn't really relate to what I had to do for schoolwork because they're there is some exciting things out there. Okay, so for starters I might say go into Google scholar and look up something that's interesting to you. So for me at one point, it was really digging into cognitive load and understanding video metrics and online learning so I think zoning in on a topic that's interesting to you, and then really digging into the research on that. And then this is part of why I started my Instagram feed and providing some of those visualizations that are important online learning because I did start to realize that there, there are a lot of resources building up. And we don't always have a lot of time to read all the research. And sometimes it's just easier to get, you know, quick visualization and to understand how we can reply that. And that was actually part of the inspiration of why I started to create some of those. Right, it's really interesting, and particularly in the world now where you know social media dominates us all and you know the kind of swipe up feature the six second, I used to use Vine a number of years ago and that was a success video. It is and you know now there's TikTok back and you can do all sorts of things and you can see them all emerging. So yeah it's really, really interesting. I guess one question I always ask people that I work with is, you know, on kind of workload. You know we know teachers are very busy people and I guess in your context online educators and things like that. The challenges be slightly different but broadly the same, you know, delivering lessons, lots of students, those types of things. What workload pressures face, you know, professors, lecturers working in an online higher education tech world, are they the same as the kind of typical physical classroom or does great differences. That's a great question. And that's interesting because the most of the, most of the faculty that we work with actually also teach on ground. So they're developed they're developed. They're teaching on ground and then also teaching online, and then doing research and if they're not professors that do research for schools and their practitioners so they're busy with their real jobs. One thing I do that I do love, even though it is it does make it a lot of work for professors is that when they're teaching on ground and online. One piece of feedback that I really loved hearing is when they come back and say this was a lot of work but I'm actually a better instructor because I had to teach online, because when you, when you teach when you are almost kind of forced to, you know, really run out every single part of your, your online online course because you're developing asynchronous components, it really kind of, I think helps professors to really outline where those really fit into the goals for their students. And then also kind of forces the brain to think through more of what they're doing on the synchronous component to so there's just a lot more tie things together. So I'm really glad that I've been talking to you because I've been trying to do an online course for years I've got loads of resources and materials. And I've got my website in a place where I can actually deliver one of my kind of core book or picture resulted called Mark Plantiche, and essentially the 30, the 30 core ideas in the book but I suspect in each chapter alone of the book and the lot of there's lots of ideas inside so I'm hearing you hit loudly but I need to create lots of five, five, seven minute videos and maybe divide one idea into maybe five or six little chapter might as that is that would I be on the right track there. Yeah, absolutely. You workload ahead for me isn't there. Yes. So, you know, what's your work I know you know pandemic aside with your work with, you know, your own organization and others, can you give us just general insight, maybe not to do with the COVID but just generally how people are, you know, where's where's the kind of future where problems emerging. What are kind of general things that people actually to do the kind of, maybe the kind of barriers that the kind of unleashed people potentials in organizations. What are your insights and patterns. So I, so I, I work with a team, I oversee a team that works with faculty across several different universities to to put their degrees and courses online. And I love that. Another part of my job that I love is that I was able to work on a project where to get the actually get those data sets to show how students are engaging with video. And that has been incredible to see, and we're starting to use those insights to guide how we how we continue the conversations with universities. But generally speaking where I see trends going is that I see a huge opportunity to use that data, whether it be that are also really starting to pull in another part of another thing that I do want to mention too is that there are online learning rubrics out there and I think that there's work more work that can be done to even enhance how those work for for building online degrees. So I see the future of this is pulling in data, pulling in data as it relates to the rubrics also to really see how we can be more effective online. And then going down the line, I think that there's going to be some work, some more work in the VR world, and applying that to online learning to I haven't really seen it pop up and anything that I'm doing but I think there's going to be some really big things happening there. One last question, you know, as a result of the pandemic and it's all working at home or online. Well, once we do return to normal we're all back out you know it's schools cafes you know shopping those types of things. What do you think the one thing in education might stick. I think online learning will stick. I mean, I mean it is going to stick and that's one thing that I like to reflect on is that the interest in distance learning this it's nothing new online learning is nothing new distance learning there's an interest in that I think it was somewhere in the 1800s, no internet back then but you know mailing back and forth to engage with academics that were far away. And then we all we all know, well at least here University of Phoenix was a big thing and all we've done is continue to evolve. The pandemic has just put a microscope a big lens on this but when life goes back to normal. Online learning it's still going to grow because there's so much still to be to be done. An education every teacher around the world's had the fast track their skills very quickly. Yeah. And I guess all our children have got that kind of resilience and those skills very early on much much quicker than maybe you and I didn't have until our like. See how they learn this generation. We're going to have to all do tick tocks I think to be great instructors. Yeah, no, it's really interesting to see how that's changing. Well, I think I'm a 10 year old son, you know if I show some YouTube videos that I'm medicine myself obviously the education says sometimes the topics are a bit dry to him but there'll be the occasional one that he's hooked into say that oh that's a really good start and then after five seconds he's gone. So, Erica, you know we've done about 25 minutes which is, you know, my podcast optimum time. So I tend to throw some quick five questions to people that I'm interviewing so you can't pause or hesitate. And I want to see if I can catch you off guard and catch you out. So an easy question to begin with today. I know it's very early in the morning for you what project are you working on this morning. This morning I am working on a program that is a is a physical therapy program at a university. And so really just working on the different complexities fun fact putting physical therapy degrees is quite online is quite a beast. Yeah, no, we haven't really talked about an organization you work for is it Cal Calicia care. Oh, okay so police here care is actually a separate company that I'm working on with my sister. I work for a company called to you and that's the one that I work with to put with my team that puts degrees online police you care is a post off recovery business my sister is a partner. And so I'm working on that together with when I'm really excited to online potential there as well and what do you do to relax. What do I do to relax. That's interesting because I have not relaxed this whole week. I like I love going on walks with my dog. That's my favorite nice body dog. What's your dog type of dog you have. He's having these and cool. Fantastic. If I haven't been to LA for a long time probably 20 years and if I came for 2440 hours where would we go what would we do. And what would we eat. We would go to a we probably go to something like. I really love synastia is it's something they do outdoor movie nights. And so right now with the pandemic they've been bringing back the drive drive in concept those students bring sorry students, you can go with your car and watch a movie and I love that so pre pandemic you'd be able to watch a movie at the Hollywood cemetery bring out a blanket bring your own food your own snacks and they put movies up on there. Okay what would be on the menu. That's tough. What would be on the menu. Okay. Man, I think that I'm supposed to answer the I'm supposed to answer these fast. Yeah, well that's all right. It's more than you know there are a lot of preconceptions about burgers in America isn't it but you got I was going to say I was going to say in and out but that's so basic everyone goes in and out is the huge thing in LA everyone does that no it would be something to do with an outdoor and okay great. Who's your kind of key person to follow on Instagram I know you're an avid Instagram user who's your go to person. My go to inspiration. I honestly have a few I don't have just one person I've really been enjoying making friends on Instagram so I can't. I don't think I would just say what it's been fun to just figure out and delve in people who are kind of in education and taking great connections load description in less than 10 words. Keep it simple. It's really really simple and okay and what book are you reading at the moment. I have a couple of really great books one is right there. And it's actually really basic when it's called chicken soup for the title. Chicken soup for the soul living your dreams and they're really beautiful stories of people who are living their dreams and I've really enjoyed one of the best exercises in the beginning of that book actually. Not only to talk about a lot about visualization and all the stories include that one of the best things that I did in during this pandemic because of this book is that it told you in the beginning. Yeah, all those little things in your life that kind of bug you a little bit, you know, and it just makes your mind a lot happier and clear so I had us do a lot of little fixes around the home probably like everything. Yeah, no me too. I mean, actually, if you want a really good chicken soup you have to take out all the little pieces and when I left full time teaching become, you know what I do now. One of the first things I did was make a real good chicken soup and buy by another friend who left full time teaching and did the same. And it's kind of a we know chicken soups good for the soul it's good to heal you make feel very homely and especially if you're not feeling well. So that's a great book a really good top tip. And what's your biggest career achievement today. I mean, I mentioned the video data project that I that I got for my current role it to you. That was a humongous accomplishment for me, just being able to navigate and figure out how to pull all of those metrics out for all of the programs that to you works with. So, you can with this data we can you can go into the back end of this and see video engagement across every single program and every single video. Fantastic post lockdown where where's your first vacation. I think that it's a toss up between Japan or the Maldives. But there's a really tough decision. Okay, and I know we're mid 2021 but well let's let's push a bit further what would what's your predicted trends in education 2022. I think there's going to be more opportunities for students to pursue education outside of the traditional degree. Okay, and who do you recommend I interview next and why. Have you brought in Ronaldo. No, not yet I know Ronaldo really well we haven't caught up physically obviously for a while but yeah I'll hook up with Ronaldo because I know he's also an ed tech guru here in the US. That's a great recommendation. I'm working listeners find out more about your online Erica. Sure. So you can find me on Instagram so it's Dr Erica maldonado is a d r e r i k a m a l d o n a d o. And so I've really been working on there to, like I mentioned post a lot more easy to easy to grasp images related to online learning. And that's it and my final questions are deep on this and what do you hope to be your legacy. I want to. It's, and it's nice that you asked us because I've really been reflecting on this so much lately. I think when you asked about 16 year old Erica 16 year old Erica didn't have really very many or any women of color in positions that could that were inspiring to her. So I want to be that for girls at that age. And, and so everything that I do I want to be absolutely confident you're already doing that Erica so that's a fantastic answer. And so that brings us to the end of our podcast everybody and you've been listening to Ross and teachers talk it and I've been having a lovely chat with Erica maldonado from California thank you Erica. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Keep up the amazing work.