 Thank you for joining us. Welcome. Good afternoon. Think Tech, Hawaii. And we have some wonderful people with us today. We have retired Hawaii judge Sandra Sims and noted author. The view from the bench. We have David Larson, not only one of the leading professors in law and dispute resolution at Mitchell Hamlin in St. Paul, but also leading expert on bringing access to justice and online case resolution to the courts in New York and hopefully elsewhere. And Tina Patterson, mediator, arbitrator, entrepreneur and coach from Germantown, Maryland. Diverse group. Very insightful group. And while we were waiting, we were talking a little bit about one of the most pitched battles between resilience and resistance in our society now is over health care vaccines masks treatment. Sandra, your thoughts. Where are we going wrong. At the same time, it's a very different kind of discussion. I think you have a very different public perception of what the roles of public health are for society for our society. And then we have this, this other part of it to me, I think which has been occurring over a period of time this sort of a D little delegitimizing the value of science and education as well. Our, you know, public school systems, we're not treating education in the same way that we are valuing it in the same way that we previously done. We can kind of look around and see how that many of our major universities. And David, you probably know this better than I do, have sort of lost some of their statue as valued institutions. They're not the, you know, there was a time it felt like there was a time when more people crave the value of American education because our education system was deemed to be pretty much superior to much of the world that's not always the case now. Instead of our elite universities that's still the case but in many places it's not and in our communities that's also affecting how we view science and how we respond to, you know, to professional information that comes to us that we don't, we don't necessarily, we're not necessarily expert at nothing other words rather than listening we're just sort of everybody has an opinion, so to speak. And social media technology lets you express your opinion. However, however uninformed it may be. And we have that. Tina, David. Well, you know, we've had some leaders and currently have some leaders who profess to along the lines of what's under saying to not really pay attention to science and literature, but to go with their gut. And the guts, their gut is kind of the best guide as to what policy should be. And, you know, I think that's just dangerous. My feeling is we're entering a period we're kind of moving back towards the dark ages, where we're rejecting science and information and data, and we're going back towards emotional responsible responses to different circumstances and things and I think that's dangerous. David, I have to concur with you, I was, when you first posed the question Chuck I thought about public health and I thought about the role of leaders appointed elected and upholding public health for the greater good of the community not for one or two individuals, or because it's profit making but because for the greater good, we need to wash our hands or boil our water. And I use those two as examples because for a while, those were things that were not considered public health need necessary but they are necessary. What I'm seeing or what I'm witnessing is this division where what's going to garner votes, what's going to curry favor. We have, in some states I talked with a colleague last night who told me the state where he resides, the governor has filed an injunction, so that a local municipality can have their mandate for wearing masks lifted, because he doesn't agree with it. So, you've got a metropolitan area of millions of people, and you've got this battle between two elected officials when the public health crisis isn't a matter of Democrat versus Republican it's what is what is going to save the most lives. What is again back to the greater good and this seems to be playing out over and over and over again. I know in the business community, some businesses are saying, you know what we'll come back in 2022, we're making profits, and our people are healthy, working from home. I understand that there's frontline workers who have to go in, but I think we're, we're, we're losing the message, which is public health. Before we started the show we talked about measles, polio, there's been other diseases that have been global. Again, it was back to public health. How do we save as many lives as possible. And that message seems to just be drowned out with other agendas. That's my personal opinion. On the other side. Let's just say the idea of the whole notion of public and what that word means is basically lost its lost its strength lost its value. Now it's now the emphasis on private. You know what, what does all of this mean to me. Now how is this impacting me, what do I want to do. This whole idea that public health means that we are particularly concerned with you at the moment, because we're looking at a pandemic, we're looking at catastrophic consequences. You know, there are moments in time when we're going to be a little less concerned about what you believe your private rights are for the benefit of saving lives. Yeah. Look at all the things going on you've got governors in several states who exactly for the reasons you just outlined saying our votes are with people who are anti mask and pro gun there. It's our right to do this. It's our right to do that. Regardless of the public interest in the public health, you've got school districts and schools for saying, we have a responsibility to our teachers and our children and our people, and we're going to protect them so we are going to require masks. And we now have battles going on at all levels between political leaders and community leaders over the public health of employees of children of public space users. I don't think we've ever seen anything like this, certainly never happened with the polio vaccines with smallpox with measles with any of those things. What makes this so different what makes this so susceptible to that kind of politicization and division. Tina we were talking before the broadcast I think Tina made a really astute observation that. Maybe both Sandra and Tina Tina were talking about this, but in the early stages of COVID. The results of the disease seem to be centered on older older individuals, not even middle aged adults but older adults, and it didn't seem to be didn't seem to be affecting children very much. With this new delta variant, and we're talking now about Lambda variant and other variants, they seem to be affecting kids much more significantly. And they both made the observation that when you start affecting children, that maybe grabs people's attention in ways that we haven't been able to up until now. So one difference I think is that when we think about other public health crises in the past, they often did involve children who've risked kind of a lifetime of disability, and we didn't want that to happen. And that wasn't in the in the calculus up until now but I think that's happening now. And if you look around the country, those statistics for kids are starting to take off. And, and hopefully that will get enough people's attention that maybe they'll change their behavior. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think Chris and here we just started our schools just went back public schools just went back last week, and they were going back to in person learning. They are the option of, you know, doing online. But again, you're seeing far, far more parents and people within that, you know, people who have children who are really, really having more of a stance. That's another dilemma. It's because on the other hand, what's happened in education is that the year of online education for many kids has been disastrous. They've fallen way way behind. They've not been able to develop the skills that we normally associate with with childhood education. It is it's certainly there. You know the technical skills, you know the readings, but it's also the socialization kinds of skills that are important part of education. COVID took that away. Took it away. We've got a whole year. We've got a whole bunch of kids that are, you know, coming out of this situation. And also adding to that the trauma of it as well for children. So that's another piece of it in terms of, you know, where this resistance and discussion is taking place is because kids we have to acknowledge the trauma that they experienced during this time as well. Not being, you know, we sort of make fun, not make fun, but we sort of minimize the importance of children's interactions with other children. You know, with the developing of their friendships and those socialization skills. It's a key piece of education. In the early, you know, in those early ages, and that's, it's, it's kind of gone for many of them. And so that impact that's another piece of the impact that I think will help maybe it'll be helpful then for people responding to these times and maybe seeing it in a different way because it affects children. You know, I think, you know, I think kids are kids are really adaptable. At least that's been my experience. Yeah, that you know, you ask a kid to wear a mask and pretty soon they're fine wearing a mask. What's more important is them being together and being able to play. So I agree that that kids lost a lot. And they lost a lot in terms of socialization and getting them back together is really important. But we want to do it as wisely and intelligently as we can. And, you know, that kind of additional part of requiring masks when they get back together I don't think it should be such a great deterrent. Because, at least from my perspective, the thing that is most destructive is the isolation of when everybody's home and not seeing each other. So if we can get them back together, but get them back together as safely as possible. We've, we've overcome one of the greatest losses of COVID, which is that with that isolation, but we have to do it wisely. Yeah, no, yeah, kids can bill adapt. Like you say, they'll do what they need to, but I mean, it's, and we also know this is hitting the most vulnerable kids and families. Part two, those with the least resources, those the least able to deal with it. And the ones where fathers and mothers are losing jobs, where they're at risk of losing their homes, whether rental or own, where the kids aren't able to adapt to the home learning they don't have the resources they don't have. Right, yeah. Yeah, kids learn with them from each other. Yes. There's always been a really key part of the system and one of the things that the best teachers do really well they reinforce that mutual collaborative learning that kids do. And so another thing that may seem to be going on here is not only extremely high distrust of government. I would say, there's a pandemic, you got to do this you got to do that high distrust of government related medical institutions, but of institutions generally whether their schools or others. So where did that come from. How did we get to this one. If you look at it historically. Hey, and you see some of the differences in how our society gets its information and communicates now compared to the times when we were growing up. Polio and small packs and small packs and other vaccines were considered unquestioned public health resources and benefits. We now have central means of communication being used for exactly that division for exactly that misinformation for exactly that mistrust of leadership and of government. How we turn that around. Well, you know, we've had kind of a cadre of publication of recent politicians who've been successful in their claim that they're not, they're not politicians. They're coming from the outside that they're going to reject all the traditional institutions. And they've kind of leverage that. And it's been successful for them. So they're going to stay, they're going to stay loyal to the type. And, you know, I am contrary institution. I'm, I'm contra government, and consequently, I think we should question and reject things that perhaps we've accepted in the past because because I don't think it's gotten to the place we want to be. And I think that idea that that because I because I'm not a traditional politician and I don't represent traditional values, and you know come follow me. I think people have followed that to their detriment that it's almost it's almost blind allegiance. Yeah, yeah, I see that I see that. I see that. So what's ahead. Part of what's ahead is looking at how information is disseminated. I was thinking about what David and Sandra were saying regarding the message messaging and how we message. And I know there's people who wish social media will go away. I don't see it going away, but I do see us taking a closer lens at at the need to know, and how, how we find out information, whether that is through our social media or through a social media site, how, how, how it's curated or how it's not curated. And I don't want to call it truth and information because that brings up a whole another, but literally, how do we disseminate the information that we've seen happen in the past 20 years with the advent of social media are things that in the past we would have known about 10 hours later 12 hours later a day later, and now we know sometimes within minutes hours. So that's that advent of disseminating information, whether it's true or untrue that I think we'll be looking at more closely. And, and how do we get the message out. And I'm going to use the example of washing your hands. How do we get the message out. You need to wash your hands. You need to wash your hands for 26 seconds. There's a reason, you know, if you want to recite your ABCs, or the Roman alphabet while you do it fine but there's a reason. You know, we get everything from the sublime to the complete fantasy, just thrown at us and trying to, to make sense of what's what's true what's not true, what's really fanciful or being made up to, to carry a story forward becomes more and more of a challenge for us. You know, and I'll use the, the example of, well, I'll use the example of Clorox, I'm sure they're not happy about me saying this but the whole idea that you know, you should use basically cleaning solution to address COVID. There's some who, and I'm with some of my colleagues, you hear that and you think there's a, there's that symbol on the back of it that tells you this is poison. So how do you think this is going to work. And then there's others who say, well, you know, if Chuck says it, then it must be right. And it's that examination that we, I think we'll be looking at more closely, just because Chuck said it doesn't make it true. And where does common sense step into this conversation, where you see, you know, there's a on the back of it. If ingested contact the National Poison Center. Yeah, you know, I think schools are going to do this. You know, but we have to kind of refocus on critical thinking and teaching critical thinking. Yeah, we're talking about the distribution of information through all these different channels, you know, to step back and just say okay let's, let's talk about how you learned about what happened yesterday let's have a conversation about that. You know and do that in our schools and talk to the kids and say that okay. Did you believe that didn't you believe it why did you believe it and began to have them think a little more thoroughly about sources of information and where it's coming from whether it's reliable. I think I think we can do that when they think we can improve our critical thinking, and our ability to to teach people to be a little more skeptical about what they hear on first impression, and to to look a little more deeply. Is that is that happening more or less. I mean I'm not, I'm not a teacher I'm not in involvement so much education so that is a question that I think is an important way for for young when I say I want to say kids but young people is to be able to do that and I'm not sure if that if that skill is as developed. You know, like even in the high school, middle school, high school, and even some college level I mean I've taught a few classes at, as a adjunct lecturer and some of that kind of critical thinking is just not there. No, I, yeah I'm not. And I'm not. I'm not sure it's being done. I'm just. Yeah, and I think about it. Yeah, and that was kind of one of the things that I picked up during that time period was kind of concerning that, you know the way you get information the way you, you know this fence information. What you hold as truths was was a was a bit disturbing it really actually was to me a bit disturbing is I don't see that happening as much. I've never a class site. This is digressing but I have done to do to watch the movie, Marshall, the movie about their good Marshall this is in a criminal justice class and one of the things I mentioned I had some questions posed about things about him not in the movie but for them to find out. And, you know, going to the question of, why didn't he go to the University of Maryland law school when he applied. He went back and you know it was like, they were just stunned to understand what happened and why he could not go to that school because they didn't allow blacks to go. But simple things like I mean that seems simple to me but, but these are college students didn't understand these sort of critical pieces of our history that that, because that wasn't that long ago in terms of that wasn't. And when they learned when we had when they found that out it was like, it sort of sparked some more discussions about other things that they sort of just take it for granted. Yeah, you're just supposed to do these things and it's supposed to happen. It's like wait a minute there's some barriers here. There's some barriers that exist and we need to be more aware of them. And it sparked a whole whole discussion. So, so check was kind of asking what's the way out. And I'm not sure it's being done I, I'd like to think it's being done, but I think it is a way out is to really emphasize critical thinking. I think we can do that. And that perhaps is a way to a way a path out of this. I have some insight with you since I recently obtained my master's degree. Critical thinking is discussed, but it's not discussed with frequency. It's not discussed as a wholesale topic. The thought or critical thinking is usually taught for people who are in philosophy or other majors where you are literally looking at something for ARC for the sake of argument. And I would like to put forth that critical thinking doesn't necessarily mean that you're arguing with someone. It simply means that you are looking what's in front of you and does it does it ring true. Does it make sense. And I think this is where it kind of gets lost that it's a stuffy topic. It's actually, for me, I'm actually taking a course now on critical thinking because I feel like I, it wasn't emphasized enough. And, you know, whether it's the, the reporting of an event and how you think you saw something and you report it, you're confident. But the, the reality is it didn't happen exactly as you said it's not because you're lying, but because when the critical thinking sets in, or you start critically thinking about what transpires some pieces of what you're saying just don't make sense. And part of it is physiologically our brains do things we we we think we saw something then we didn't. When we delve into critical thinking at that level people usually get the. Are you done yet versus the, you know, the simple question like you said, Sandra, you know, why didn't Thurgood Marshall go to the University of Maryland, and why did he end up at Howard, and it. That's the fact that you know the fact is University of Maryland law school didn't admit black students back then and he opted to go to Howard. But he suited later but. Yes, he did. That was a fun part. But, but it's that taking a pause and analyze and, and in a world where, and I hate to sound negative about this instant gratification. I said I really, you know, can you just give me the answer. Can I just Google it and get the answer can you tell me I don't want to think about it. Exactly. And that's why you got multiple choice exams I was like, no, no, no, no, no, you know, we don't do. Give it to me quick. You got to tell me what you know you got to. Maybe I think it's the lawyer in us that court sort of makes you do that but that is the way I mean people just you know you have you can have a discussion with someone in my own kids do this and rather than discuss something I'll just pull up the phone and let's just Google it. Here's the answer. There it is. Instant gratification just give me the answer Siri. What's the answer. The answer exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you know, you want me to look at what that's going to take that's going to take longer than I really wanted to put into this. Yeah. So I, going back to your earlier question Chuck, I do think it's the advent of the super information. You know, I can type in the word. Avocado fries and get five different recipes at once on my computer and make a decision about which of those recipes I want to follow. Some of them may be good. Some of them may not be good but it's quick. It's fast. I've got an answer may. Is it the best answer that remains to be seen but I got it. We know people are going to look for the answers that they want to hear. They'll keep looking until they find a place and then they'll pick that rely on that. So we've run out of time for today. But we're at a point where if there's anything that maybe pulls this all together. Taking learning in a truth seeking public safety direction is something that we're going to have to do together, multi generational multi disciplinary. We're going to have to team up not divided fighting each other about it, engaging in it together respectfully and understand. Absolutely. Hold that thought and come back with us in a couple of weeks and we'll see where it goes from here. Thanks so much for joining us think that Hawaii. Tina Sandra David. Thank you so much for your insights. Thank you. Thank you.