 call this meeting to order. It is 6 0 5 p.m. on February 22, 2022. Um, we have a quorum and every commissioner minus you all. Um, so with that, um, there's any modifications or additions to the agenda. I'll take, I'll take, um, I'll take that now. Not seeing or hearing any with that. I moved to adopt the, the agenda as is second, seconded by Susie. All the favor raise your hand or say aye. Aye. Aye. That passes unanimously. Um, next brings us to, um, the approval of the last, last two meetings minutes. There's a typo, I believe there's a typo on my end on the agenda. It should be approved in minutes from the executive commission meeting for on 126. You set up copy of approved in minutes. My apologies on that. Anywho, I would take a motion to, to approve the minutes from the last two meetings. The 21st, sorry, the 25th of January and the 26th of January. So moved. Seconded, uh, seconded by Milo. All in favor raise your hand or say aye. Aye. Aye. That passes unanimously. And with that, it brings us to agenda item 3.01, which is public forum. Um, Shannon, did anybody reach out to you by email to speak? Um, I, I have Trish O'Kane who sent an email and then I think I'll just take one quick look after that. All right. And if anyone is out there in the public on the attendee side, if you would like to speak there in public forum right now, please raise your hand and we'll acknowledge you if much to a panelist. Hello. All right. Uh, hi Trisha, floor is yours. Hi. Thank you. Um, so first of all, I just wanted to thank you all for your service. Um, I think your, your board, your commission is so important to have civilian oversight over the police. And I have attended some of your meetings in the past. I am very alarmed at what happened at the city council meeting a couple of weeks ago, where the mayor has imposed his will on the city and appointed the police chief regardless of the views. I understand of your commission and I want to make sure I understand correctly because a couple of commissioners did testify and said that a majority of your commission did not approve of this police chief. And I was very alarmed when I heard that because I respect your work very much. And I think that if, if you, a majority of you did not want this chief, he shouldn't be in, um, because I think, and I think the mayor is weakening this commission and we need stronger civilian oversight, not weaker civilian oversight. So I'm really disturbed about that. I'm also very alarmed at what I see as the manipulation of public opinion and this fake, what seems to be fake, but that's a question I have public safety crisis. Is there a crisis or not? Do we have more crime or not? I've been reading the media and I'm confused. I was also very alarmed at the ACLU report from September, um, accusing the police chief of fabricating this campaign and withdrawing police officers on purpose from downtown. Um, so, and I think knowing all this or hearing all this after seeing what happened with former police chief del pozo and his deputy and the social media scandal where they created these fake accounts, it just seems like public opinion has been manipulated, been manipulated, um, for a few years now in Burlington. Um, and, and this is not, this is not a good sign. So thank you for your work. Please continue to, um, to be, to be, um, aggressive and on top of things and don't give up. We need you. Thank you. And, um, Shannon, I was unsure if there's any more on your end. I just, uh, just took a look through and that was the only one that I received an email for. All right. Thank you. Uh, is there anybody in the attendees that would like to speak now during public forum? Please raise your hand and we will promote you to a panelist. I am not seeing any right now. And with that, I'll close public comment for the evening. Um, all right. Moving on, seeing how our discussion with chief no more hearty from Brandenburg police department is time certain that 645, um, I'm going to jump ahead of that to the chief's report. And, um, if DC LaBreck is ready, it's a point to give the truth for, uh, we'll happily take it. Oh, I'm sorry. I believe you're muted. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Absolutely. So for, um, January, we, and into part of this part of February up till now, our call volume compared to, uh, January of 2021, we're up about, uh, 200 incidents. So this January, we had 1451 incidents. January of last year, we're at 1,250. So we're up about 200. And so far this month, we have had 1,065 incidents as today. And February of last year at this time, we were about 987. So the, there's a slight uptick in the volume of calls for service through the last month and a half. We'll see with the lifting of some of the bands, the mask mandates and, uh, some of the bands on the number of people you can have in gatherings and indoors and stuff like that. We'll see how that tends to trend over the upcoming months. Obviously, the weather itself plays, uh, plays a lot into that. So moving on from call volume into staffing currently, uh, to give you a staffing update, we have 65 total officers on payroll. So that's officers that are actually being paid as police officers. That is, um, 50 officers, uh, uniformed officers or detectives, 15 supervisors that gives you the 65 out of those 65, we have three on military leave, three on injury leave, and one that is still attending the academy. Uh, that leaves, so seven of those 65 are not available, which brings us down to approximately 58 officers. Breaking that up even further, just to give you an idea, the detective service bureau has 10 officers assigned to them right now. The airport has the, their normal, uh, cadre of seven officers. We have one officer in the recruitment department and one officer that is now the domestic violence, um, police officer. So that leaves us roughly, uh, 25 uniform service officers. Those are the officers that will, that are able to work the road. And roughly, uh, we are running right now, um, four on day shift, four on evenings and two on one midnight shift and three on the other midnight shift. Cause there is an odd number in that 25, uh, last month, we had three resignations. One officer went to the Vermont state police. One went to Manchester, New Hampshire PD, and one is going to the, uh, DEA, uh, moving on to training and recruitment. We do have one officer graduating from the Vermont police academy this Friday. Uh, he will then attend one week of post basic training that's next week. And he will start his field training with us on March 8th. And that is 14 weeks, uh, field training as long as, as long as he does not receive any extensions, uh, in his training, which can be possible. And that's not unusual for an officer to have, you know, a couple of days up to a couple of weeks, depending if they're struggling in one area or another. Uh, he, without any extensions, we should have him available as a solo officer on June 12th, the week of June 12th. So that will be a welcome addition. Uh, the CSOs, we have four working CSOs right now. We have two that will finish training next week. That will bring us up to, um, six CSOs and we have two more hired that will start their training on the 28th of February. Uh, let's see. Our CSLs are fully staffed. And just to give you an idea of what they've been doing since roughly mid October, I ran some numbers. So since mid October, they've responded to 291 calls. And out of those 291 calls, they were the primary person, um, on those calls for 217 of them. So that means they were, they ended up either being the only person that responded or they responded with an officer and took over the call. We normally call it primary officer, the person who's responsible for the report, uh, or finishing the, the incident up. Um, so they, they've taken over a 217 of those. And if you just kind of average it out over the last four months, they've, they've responded to about 72 calls per month. And, uh, they've taken 54 of those 72 calls per month. Now, the other thing you have to remember too is like a lot of those calls probably involve a lot of follow up that continues in the days after that, you know, normally an officer would have to try to do, or we might have to reach out to street outreach through the Howard center. Um, and they're more like we are, they respond in the moment and help try to calm things down and get things moving in the right direction. So, you know, that's harder to track, uh, you know, especially with our record system, because it's not really built, built for that. Um, so there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. I will tell you from personal experience, when I look at, um, I guess a good example would be when I look at the weekly, uh, reports that we get that show us people in Burlington that either call us the most or we respond to and deal with the most. Uh, I mean, most of those do deal with mental health calls. I have seen those numbers shrink. Um, and you know, we'd have to dig in deeper to see how many of those people had contact with CSL's. Um, and that just helped, hopefully helping drive that number down. There's also a, not only do the, um, city, but we do county wide because we can look at, you know, South Burlington, Colchester and a lot of the people we deal with in Burlington, they also appear on the, you know, county wide most, you know, people that have the most calls for service, whether they call, like I said, that they call or we respond to a call that they happen to be on. Um, so that's, you know, that's definitely a good sign. And, uh, you know, quite honestly, you know, in a perfect world, hiring two more CSL's would be, uh, really helpful. Uh, it would allow a much more robust coverage on evenings and weekends. They are covering those, but you know, it is, it is tougher. I think they have one, they take turns covering the weekends. Um, but, you know, if we ever get, you know, if I ever have a say in any of that, I would say, uh, hiring two more CSL's would definitely be a, uh, a boon, um, to us, you know, and in some ways it's kind of a, you know, a hybrid type cahoots plan in the sense that, you know, we have officers that respond with them. They'll go with the officers. They'll both show up and a lot of times they're like, you know, we got this and the officer will just, that will be the end of their involvement on that call or a sergeant, uh, lieutenant will hear the call and they'll be like, can you send a CSL to that first and we won't send any officer at all to the call. Um, so other than they're not riding around together, uh, officers email them all the time. If they do go to an incident like late at night and the person's obviously having, uh, you know, some mental health issues, some distress, they will email the CSL's in the morning or that night and in the morning the CSL's will get that email and I'm privy to them and they're like, yep, we're on it. They'll look up the incident. They'll make contact with a person. Uh, I probably should check and make sure that they're adding themselves to that incident that might, I think that, I don't think they are. I think they may be just doing that behind the scenes work that I was, that I was discussing. Um, so we helpful if they added that themselves to the incident, uh, because that would have helped show when I run the numbers, uh, that they've, they've actually participated in those. Yes. Yeah, I just want to, um, affirm what you said and say if you're trying to make a case for two additional ones, having the data will be really helpful. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I'm lumping in everything. Yeah, I do have like the, the email knowledge as well that's, uh, you know, helping me like kind of form the opinion in my head, but yeah, the more, uh, the more information we can get out of the Valkor and have them make sure they're added to the incidents that will, I think that'll help, uh, help our case for sure. Yes. Question DC. Um, do the CSOs and CSLs, do they wear body cam as well? The only the CSOs do the community service officers, uh, you know, the CSLs that I think that that's way too much associated, I think with the, with officers, with police, maybe people would think they're police officers or, uh, or not appreciate the, you know, what they'd be used for obviously a good purpose, but it might be hard for the CSLs to really, um, put that out there. And the other thing is we do have a body warrant camera policy for the state. And one of the things is, is you have to ask, um, before you film in somebody's, uh, private residence. So I think that would be an awkward start for them, uh, on those occasions, but the community service officers, yes, they're there. That isn't a change in the past. We had not, but, uh, done that with our, just the two that we normally had. Um, but with the addition of all these CSOs and the changing calls that serve calls for service, they're going to go to, they are all issued body cameras now in there. They go through the body warrant camera training too. And really for them, it's just like the police officers, it's really for, you know, their protection. It shows exactly what happened in the moment and what people said. Um, so yeah, we are, you know, we're definitely looking, uh, looking, looking at, um, uh, sorry. Uh, the other thing I will tell you though, we did have the CSOs and the CSLs, they came to us and asked us for some sort of type of, um, um, body armor, I guess, you know, the vest like the officers wear. So the CSLs were fitted and received, um, uh, those types of vest, not to wear all the time, but in case there are certain incidents, if we have negotiations going on, we have some sort of, you know, more serious situation and they're going to be on scene, you know, up with the officers. Um, they, you know, they wanted some level of protection. So they were issued, uh, fitted and issued, um, uh, the body war, the body armor and the CSOs have always worn that, um, just from the nature and the representation they are out in the public. Sure. Makes, makes perfect sense. Yeah. Yes. I feel like, I feel like, yeah, I forget you can't see me. I wasn't sure. Yeah. Uh, just a couple of questions. So I was, uh, I was looking at these data. So you said there were 1,398 incidents this January. And so if we compare to last January, that was before the vaccine. And so there was much less movement last January. If we compare the incidents this January with 2020, which is, you know, more of an apples to apples comparison. Um, there were 2200 incidents in that month. So basically this represents a 36% decline in incidents. Uh, and I wondered if you would, you know, would like to speak to the composition. I, one of the, I'll just say more generally, um, folks are feel alarmed when we talk about incidents and many of them are mental health or overdoses, uh, things that are not related to so-called criminal activity. And so it, sometimes I think it would be useful to break that out for folks. Uh, if you can do that when you're presenting these is rather than just talking about overall incidents. But I was looking at, for example, simple assault is down from 2020 overdoses are down from 2020. And I just wonder if you have any other observations about, um, the, the incidents that you saw this January and as compared to previous years, uh, yeah, if you give us some detail on that, that'd be great. So I'm not really putting this out there for detail. I just want you to know how the number of incidents to how busy officers were this year compared to last year. Um, you know, to break it all up. I don't really want to, I mean, you can talk to the chief if, if you'd like him to break it up. I just didn't really want to take up all your time going through individual, uh, individual, uh, incidents or, or types of calls to the know he's, he's done that in the past. And I'm not certainly putting this out there to alarm anybody. I didn't haven't talked about any, about violent crime or any part. I'm just saying these are the number of calls that people came in or very few are officer generated. Um, and compared to the year ago, uh, where the trends just seems to be where we're at. Now, granted, yeah, if I completely agree with you, it was probably down 30 some odd percent, which is good since our department's been cut almost 50%. So that's a, that's a good thing. Uh, that we're down that much, at least that much. Um, hopefully another 20% would maybe even us off a little bit in there. Um, but yeah, I can certainly, if I do this again, I'll certainly try to break it up into maybe a little more categories and stuff like, uh, stuff like that. Yeah. I just think in general people probably, uh, the over, I hear your point, which makes a lot of sense about understanding how busy officers are. And I think just any observations you or the chief have about what are the kinds of things that you're seeing would be helpful. And for the public that is watching, I want to just remind you that you can also access these data yourself, that they're on the police department portal and you can actually identify the number of incidents by type, uh, and get that detail yourselves if you want to look at it. Yeah. Past experience, um, I would say, you know, a majority of our calls recently have been mental health calls. And I think, you know, just to me personally speaking, like I think some of it is, you know, the long two years of COVID and isolation and that type of thing, I think we'll probably see, you know, calls, maybe not, calls not going up, uh, incidents not going up. Uh, but the, the type of incident within those calls, mental health calls, um, certainly I think people are probably really struggling right now. Uh, and, you know, hopefully with some of the restrictions being loosened and people being able to get outside and hopefully spring sometime before June, would be nice. Uh, that will, you know, hopefully, uh, help, help. But I think going back to the CSLs, like they've, uh, I think they really have been, it's been a really, the start of the program has been really great. I'm really pleased with, um, where it seems to be going. Lacey's been doing a really good job. They've been very responsive. They also, they were issued, uh, they're issued portable radios. Just, uh, they don't usually, you know, once again, it's one of those things that they don't really want to carry when they're going right up to the, to somebody they're speaking with, because it does. People like, oh, it looks like a police radio. You must be the police. And they're trying to, they're not the police. They're, they're to help, but they do have radios that they can keep in their car. Um, if we can't reach them by cell phone on a call, we might try to reach them by radio. And we're hoping to at some point have dispatch be able to dispatch them, not have the sergeants and lieutenants have to, you know, be the ones that make the decision, but we're still, you know, it's still in its infancy and we're still trying to, you know, work through those and the radios just got, just got issued to them. They've had cell phones and that's how we contacted them in the past. So I think, you know, is that the program grows? I think we'll see that. Sorry. I think my wife just pulled in. She heard the garage door. Don't worry about it. My dog was the same thing. Yeah. So apologize. You might get a couple more barks out of her. So yeah, so yeah, I've been really, I'm really excited about the CSL program and the CSL program as well. I think they're, you know, they're, they're building a steam. Just going back to, I'd like to, um, we also, so the police academy ends on February, this, this Friday, they'll have graduation and there's a new academy that starts on, um, the 21st of March and we have one confirmed officer going to that. Um, and he actually is a new American. He immigrated here from India. He is, um, confirmed to go and we have one more that's in background right now and we're hoping to get that finished and it looks like we will to get him in as well. We have, it's due not next week, but the week after. So they gave us, the academy gave us a little bit of a leeway there. Normally it'd be due, I think at the end of this week, but just like everybody else, we're having issues just trying to find the polygraph, you know, it's something to do to the polygraph and stuff like that. So we have, hopefully we'll have two more in the academy at the end of, uh, at the end of March and, you know, that would roughly push that out on the road. Hopefully, you know, sometime in the early fall, it's about, if you add it all up, it's going to be, uh, 30 weeks. So seven months from, from then. So somewhere around the end of September. So that would be, uh, that would be very welcome. Also in the training recruitment world, uh, we're working with WCAX on a promotional video that will also, uh, work with ads online and TV, uh, through WCAX. We posted a Lieutenant position. We're down to Lieutenant spots. Uh, we did post that with Noble, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement and Executives that's posted on their, uh, on their website for careers. And we do have two job fairs that are, uh, that Officer O'Leary will be attending at SUNY Plattsburg and Norwich University that are coming up. I'm sorry, Milo. I didn't see, I'm sorry, Councilor Grant. I didn't see your, uh, Commissioner Grant. I didn't see your hand up. Apologize. Oh, that's not a problem at all. Um, I just had a couple of questions. Um, do you have the report in, uh, the format that the chief usually presents it? No. Or are you just moving off some notes that you made? Uh, this is what I put together. Okay. Okay. Um, I was wondering if, uh, maybe this might be a note for Shannon. Uh, the January chief's report was never added to board docs. So that would still need to be done. And if you have any printout, um, for the numbers that you just reviewed this evening, um, can that be added to board docs? Sure. They were just notes that I made, but yeah, I can, I can certainly do that. Okay. Thank you. Yep. Commissioner Grant, I'll get that, um, put up. I didn't realize it wasn't. Thank you. Thank you. DC Libre, can I ask you a couple other questions? Sure. Um, so you mentioned that it would be good to have two more CSLs. And, uh, I wonder have you have, has the department made this formal request to the mayor and city council? Is there any effort you would like us to support you in with regard to that? Uh, I have, we have not made that because we rigid, we've maxed out the original number of three. Um, so yeah, I think any help we could get from, from the police commission would be great. Uh, you know, where, you know, where's the, where's the money going to come from when it comes from the police department? Um, I just, you know, I have a really good feeling about this program. Uh, and just, you know, having that coverage, you know, and it comes, a lot of it comes from seeing the officers using it, like using the program, like using the CSLs, the emails, and the collaboration that they're, uh, that's working. Like I think that really is, it really is kind of how we pictured it. It's kind of, for once, it's, it's kind of, you know, kind of coming together and how we hoped it would. And I think, you know, one of the areas that we do from having been through this, you know, uh, especially working the road most of my career and working nights, uh, is having that coverage, not, you know, till three o'clock in the morning. Uh, I completely understand that. But, you know, when Justin Barrett worked for street outreach, he worked in the evenings and you know, he was invaluable till like 11 or 12 o'clock at night. So having that coverage, having enough CSLs so they're not, you know, you know, it's a tough job for them having to deal with, uh, all their clients and stuff like that. Um, it's just, it's a strain, you know, a mental strain on them having enough that they can rotate through evenings and rotate through like the weekends and stuff. And it still allows everybody to have, you know, their weekends off, you know, and not always have to be at work. And, you know, the other thing is, is people need to take vacations and their time off. And, you know, that's, they've been, I know that they post overtime and some of them cover those, those shifts, but, you know, I really think having the same, uh, availability at, in the evenings where you have one available. And a lot of times those are the calls in, you know, up until around midnight or so, those are the calls at night like can, that can turn serious or people are really in, uh, place that they need help. And it's not always a police officer. Like, you know, fortunately we have a lot of negotiators now. And I think, you know, the negotiators we have are outstanding and they really do a really good job dealing with those types of crises, but having a CSL there as well. And, you know, my goal would be also for them to go to some type of negotiation, um, school as well, or even, uh, excuse me, just attend one. So they see what the officers are learning so they can play off that or understand where, you know, we're coming from. But yeah, I think it's one of those budget things we'd have to look at. And, uh, I know I've talked to the chief. We've talked about it already. Um, because like I said, just now we're starting to see everything kind of gel together. Um, so yeah, I think that's a, that's a really good, uh, direction going. Yeah. And certainly if we start putting it together, any, you know, and, you know, help you can give us with the city council and, and city hall with it too would be, would be a terrific. And just one quick last question. Um, so you have two, uh, recruits going to Vermont police academy. Uh, am I correct in understanding that if you were to do a lateral hire, that would be somebody who's already gone through the police academy and therefore would be more available and then it would ask you, are there any, um, any, anything on the horizon there with regard to lateral hires? We don't, yes, that's correct. If we had somebody, um, from, uh, in state is much easier because they, that means they have their, they've graduated from the Vermont police academy. We still require them to go through our 14 week field training program. And the reason for that is, you know, sometimes if we've had, you know, really good officers from other departments, like, wow, this person could probably jump right out on the road and, and be fine and be able to do a really good job. Um, until something happens, right. And then if we only gave them like an abridged version, like a seven week FTO, they're going to say, I didn't get the 14 week FTO like so and so did. And that's why this happened. Um, so we, we, you know, we've always made even people in state do the 14, well, you know, it's kind of grown in weeks over the years from 10 to 12 to 14 weeks. Just so you know, the national average is around 23 to 26 weeks of field training, um, for this type of, uh, job. Um, but yeah, they go through that even out of state, you know, if this academy will recognize their certification from whatever state they're from, they only have to go to a part time, which we call level two academy. It's a two week academy. It kind of gives them an overview of Vermont laws and put them through firearms and all the basic stuff. And then they give them a, what they call a prescription, a list of classes they have to attend here and there down at the academy or some of the, we have a lot of trainers in our department that teach at the academy. So our trainers will put them through it up here and they have to go through the check sheet. And once they're done that and they go through field training, then they can go to the road. And it does, it is a much quicker. Usually in that 14 weeks in the field training, we also get them finished up on, uh, everything else, um, that's needed. It, but it's, it's definitely a tough market. We've had a few, we had, um, some officers from the New York police, uh, and, uh, New York city police department came up. Um, it had chosen interest, did some ride-alongs, but we haven't had, uh, much luck with that in state. We've had, um, really nobody so far. The really what's happened is everybody in the state is cannibalized, everybody else. So everybody, cops that worked in the state have now moved to wherever they're going to go. And there's like this equilibrium that's been reached, uh, within the state. Um, but, you know, with COVID ending and, uh, hopefully we'll be able to get out more and, and, um, you know, really show folks what, you know, coming to work for the police department, the benefits it'll have for them. Thanks. Yeah. Uh, the only thing I have left is that there's just, just keep in mind in the upcoming months, there's two large events that will be coming up. Uh, the Vermont city marathon may, I think it's May 29th, Sunday, Memorial Day, Sunday of Memorial Day weekend, believe it's the 29th. Um, uh, that's going to occur. It's going to be the same, um, a route that they ran last fall for their half marathon. They're just going to run it twice, which is good in some ways for us because it required a lot less officers than they normally would. Uh, but that's coming up in May and then we do have the July 3rd celebration that, uh, hopefully the weather will be much nicer and less rainy and cold, uh, than last year. But that's also a large event that will acquire a lot of, uh, officers. And we've already reached out to the state police for, uh, both those events. They always have their, um, like their, um, their bomb unit, the bomb dogs and stuff are always there. The National Guard comes out for those events. Um, and they, um, they don't charge for the, for those special units to be there. And we did reach out to their, um, to their union as well as posting over time to see if some of the troopers can come work. They usually work the marathon they have in the past, but seeing if they'll expand that to the July 3rd celebration as well. Unfortunately for them, they're, uh, percentage wise, they're in the same kind of boat. They're down like 50 or 60 troopers out of 300, uh, over state. It's all over the state. So it doesn't, you know, it doesn't appear quite as well, uh, as it does, uh, in Burlington, but, you know, they're down to like two troopers in barracks in some of the places. So, um, but yeah, I just, uh, that pretty much covered my report. I can answer any questions if anybody has them. Yes. I have a question. I have a comment and a question. The comment is that the reduction in the number of available police is a national issue. It's not just, you know, Vermont and, um, my question is the CSLs and the CSOs, how do they go from place to place? Are they using their personal vehicles or what's happening with that? The CSLs right now are, um, we have cars ordered for the CSLs, electric cars, and for the CSOs. The CSOs have a truck. So right now it hasn't been an issue because we only have, um, one working in the day shift and one working the evening shift. Uh, but when these folks come off, uh, there'll be one on days, one on a split shift during the day and then one working evening. So they're going to have to share the truck for right now. The issue is I just talked to Lieutenant Brownell who runs our fleet and the global supply chain is struck again. Um, and there's just no cars. There's, they're not making, uh, vehicles for, you know, for, um, municipal municipalities, they're filling the orders for individuals right now. And it wasn't really great news. He said, this year, well, the ones we were supposed to get last year, that's not going to happen. The ones this year, it's going to be less. And then next, it's going to stretch into next year. So, but there, there, we have secured, uh, there were going to be three, uh, four vehicles for the CSOs and three vehicles for the CSLs that they will have available to them. And, um, you know, one of the CSL vehicles we, we're not going to put like you would see in a police car, like a cage, you know, like we have in the back. Uh, we're going to put a partition up though. So it'll allow them to transport somebody up to the hospital and still keep them safe in the front seat, but it won't be, it won't be like a police cruiser, but it'll put, you know, something there that will protect them in case something happened. And then once again, the CSOs as well, you know, yeah, it's not going to do any good if we have four of them working a day and, you know, everybody's packed into the Ford F-150 that we have right now. So we're hoping the, you know, at least maybe the electric cars, we can get some of those. I know that Lieutenant Brownells thinking outside the box, we have some cruisers down there that have been decommissioned that we replaced and getting those completely stripped down and putting yellow lights on the top and having the CSOs drive those around. So he's working, he's, he's working as best he can with what he has and trying to, you know, get those added back to the fleet because they've been taken out of our fleet and, you know, the city has X number of cars, I guess for the entire city, not just the PD and, but if, you know, if the fire department's not looking, maybe we'll go borrow one of their ambulances, one of their new ambulance or their older ambulance. They won't maybe miss that as much. You were right the first time, the newer ones, right? The newer ones. You all wanted to check in with you, all of us, you know, you're, you've had a big jump in your responsibilities. We just want to know how you're doing. Yeah, doing good. Yeah. We're all behind you. Yeah, I appreciate that. But yeah, I think I gave you a minute left before quarter, quarter seven. What a deal. Thank you very much for that. And Shannon, would you mind promoting Oh, you're good. Never mind. What's the mile? I guess I'll give it before the Stephanie. Hey, so Chief Hardy is logging on here. And I want to, I'll just preference it by saying that for the public that every month, we have an educational component to commission meetings, part of our effort to train ourselves part of our effort to educate the community and also share with the VPD some of the information that is coming out in some of the perspectives that we're hearing. So Chief Hardy, so nice to see you and we're really honored to have you. Chief Hardy and I had a discussion this morning about what she talked about and I'm just going to turn it over to her. She's going to talk for a bit and then we will all ask questions. Shannon, if you could help me with this. If anybody, if the attendees want to ask questions, how should that happen? Can they post questions in the Q&A or would you like to go ahead? Oh, sorry. I did enable the Q&A this time from last time. So I think that's good if we want to, I think all of the commissioners should be able to see the Q&A at the bottom of the screen. And I don't know if just afterwards, if you want me to read the questions, commissioners, I'm happy to or if you want to take the lead on that, it doesn't matter. But I'll pay attention to the Q&A at the bottom. Okay, I'll probably take the questions. Chief Hardy, welcome. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me tonight. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Sorry. I'm kind of like trying to make sure I have everything running. We're waiting with faded breath. Okay, well, I guess I'll just introduce myself, you know, Norma Hardy. I'm the chief available police department. I've been here in Vermont six months. I actually was retired from the Port Authority Police Department in New York and New Jersey, where I did 26, almost 27 years, retiring as assistant chief, one of only three two star chiefs in that department, and the first woman to reach that rank. So I've lived through terrorist bombing, and I survived the terrorist attack. So, you know, just throughout my entire career with the Port Authority, we were a by state agency. So we had police, police privileges in New York and New Jersey. We ran not only the World Trade Center, but also all of the airports, Canada, Guadalupe, Newark. We also controlled all bridges and tunnels, and also path train and the Port Authority bus terminal, where I did seven years as a rookie at the at the bus terminal. I did my first year out of the Academy at the World Trade Center. I am a middle of valor recipient from the 1993 bombing at the World Trade Center. I was well, I had just gotten out of the Academy, I had less than four months on, and I happened to get trapped into the building for the first body. And I know everyone knows the story of 9 11. So they know that, you know, many people, you know, Port Authority police lost 37. NYPD lost 23 officers and the New York City Fire Department lost 343 firefighters. I spent most of my career. Before I retired, I stayed at the World Trade Center site. I was assigned there as a construction sergeant, and I worked on all the programs to rebuild the trade center. I also was the liaison for 9 11 families. So I forged relationships with the family, surviving members of the people that were killed in 9 11. And we were able to also develop the 9 11 tribute center, which is a museum that was created by the families that is in lower Manhattan. And it's not the 9 11 museum, which was a much larger project. This was the tribute center, which was actually started by actual family members. So I did that. Like I said, I was the first woman to be named a chief with the Port Authority police. And that was in 2013. And I have commanded the Newark Airport. I've commanded almost every command that the Port Authority had, with the exception of the New York Airport, Kennedy and LaGuardia. So at any time I've had anywhere from 60 to 400 officers under my command. I retired. And that was wonderful. I retired in 2018. And it was time for me to do that. But I have not really slowed down because I had asked to speak at Academy graduations, schools. Usually I will speak whatever someone wants to hear what I have to say. So I never really even tie it. I sit on a lot of law enforcement panels. And women in law enforcement, particularly I belong to three women in law enforcement groups, including international women in policing. So when I saw the opportunity to come to Battleboro, I thought, you know, this is a great opportunity. It's a time of change. And I think that I can bring something to the table. And, you know, and just talking to them and seeing their vision for change. I was like, okay, I need to come out of retirement and do this. And here I am. So, and here I am going to speak with all of you tonight. So I just, I think that's it. Oh, and I was living in Virginia. And I like, you know, but I'm from Brooklyn, New York. And I think people will worry that I wouldn't be able to deal with the weather in Vermont. But I also lived in the Catskills for five years. So I did have a chance to deal with bad winters. So now any questions for me? Thank you so much, Chief. Chief Hardy and I talked about that it might be easier and more rewarding for people to pose questions to her. She has a lot to say, but we thought we'd frame it around the questions that commissioners wanted to ask Commissioner Hart. Chief, thank you for joining us. My question is what you are experiencing to be the biggest challenge so far for you with your department? I think one of the biggest challenges has been just finding that line where you can still uphold certain laws and also policies and procedures that have already been put in place and also develop a relationship with the community. And so, you know, that's been one of the things that has been a challenge. Just not all of the community. I do have an open door policy. So I do a lot of community interactions. You know, I have people that they will just show up at my door and see if I'm available. And I try to make sure that I give the equal time for everyone. So it's not just people that are pro-police, not pro-police, kind of in the middle, doesn't matter. And this is what I talked with Stephanie about. Anyone I will sit down at the table and have a conversation as long as it's respectful. Thank you. And how I'm just going to ask one other question because I presume there are a lot of questions tonight. What is the, do you have open positions on your force? And if so, do you have an approach and aim in order to make it a more diverse force if that's identified as a need? Oh, absolutely. My force, right now when I took over, my force had 10 openings. It now has nine, because I have a young officer that's about to get out of the academy now, this week actually. So they were facing a lot of challenges to begin with when I took over the department, basically staffing major, major, major, as with everyone else. I listened to DC and it has been an issue. I meet with other chiefs. I meet with state police. I've talked numerous times with the colonel from state police. And that has been a big major thing is staffing. I've addressed it that I have opened up. I think that there were certain things in place that you didn't like do a lot of interviews. I've opened up my interview. So, you know, I've, and I've framed it so that we can go to places like Indeed and give more people that would think of a police in Korea to come in. And so far that has been very successful for me. And I've had way more interview candidates coming in and actually interviewing with us. You know, and I've told HR to put it on Indeed, put it on Glassdoor. I actually found my position on Indeed, you know, and also to some of the restraints and constraints that have been with policing, you know, if you can have a certain amount of other things, other life experience or things going for you, you don't have to have a master's degree or a bachelor's degree, which most police departments will ask for. You know, I take into consideration all, which was taken into consideration for me because I had military. And I feel that if you can be that kind, like be in that kind of structured environment, then you should be given a chance to come out and be able to participate in these jobs also. Thank you. Hey, thanks for being here with us. I guess a quick question, not so much a quick answer, but I'll go anyway. So trust is a big, is a big issue right now between the three members and police departments all across the country. And I'm curious, well, what kind of things are you going to try to do to kind of, I guess, rebuild that trust between Brattleboro and us and some of the community down there. And I know that's it's going to take time, obviously, but it's kind of any any ideas we have right now. Oh, absolutely. You know, just things that I'm doing, not just talking about them. You know, since my day, since my first work day here, I've been, I went out into the community myself, you know, personally and address issues. I had a open forum for community, put an entire community at the library, where they could come and they could talk with me and ask me questions and want to know what's going on, because I think a lot of times it's so much secrecy, you know, that we tend to have secrecy within the department and we and we've always felt kind of like it was the way we needed to be, you know, although I feel I am a proponent of procedure and policy, of course, and certain times you have to have secrecy just because you want to make sure that you're doing everything that you should be doing the way you should be doing it. But at the other times, there are some things that you don't need to have secrecy. I've started on my Facebook page, I put numbers, you know, I put arrest numbers, I put calls per month, things like that, like open that up to the community, to the public. And, you know, just to have that back and forth that I'm really trying to have more transparency with the community. You know, I walk, you know, I haven't done it lately because it's just been cold, but I try to walk, you know, I walk around the whole town, you know, if I, if it's some way that I don't know yet, because I'm still learning, but I walk downtown, I go out with my officers, I make my face known, everyone knows who I am. And then to, you know, I have an open door policy, as I said, so I have people that will come talk to me whether it's for a complaint, whether it's for what they have to have dealt with in the past, and whether it's that what they see as a future for their police department. Because I've already stated that I want them to be able to feel like we're at their police department. But if I say that, then I have to actually, you know, walk that walk. So they can come in and they can say, well, I think you should do this. And I have people that trust me, they come in and they tell me exactly what they want. And well, why can't you do this, you know, and it can be this spectrum all the way up here, that some people want us to just be able to arrest everybody, all right, that it should be down to the spectrum of here, where we have certain groups that want us to not have guns. So I have to deal with that spectrum from all the way up, you know, what people concerns are. And, and this thing is that I don't, if you're not, I feel like if you're not honest, you know, just say I will say what I cannot possibly, you know, that I can't do, I don't make promises, I can't keep. I think that matters with the community, you know, because I think that, you know, I'm not a politician, you know, I don't always speak, you know, PC, all right, I say point blank, what's, what's going on, this is what's going on, and give me a chance to work on it or give me a chance to fix it. And if I can't fix it, I'll find someone that can help me fix it. That's, that's just how I am, you know, I've always been like that. So that's how I spent my whole career. So it's, I'm not bringing anything differently that I did for 27 years to battle bro PD, you know, and, and so far, you know, like I said, I go out into the community, you have to. Thank you. Commissioner Cumberford and then Commissioner Garrison. First thanks for being here. And you're definitely my kind of woman straight out there. I love it. So I have a two part question. And the first part is, you know, thinking broadly about, you've had a lot of experience in a lot of different venues, including now in Vermont. What are the reforms that you see police really need to move toward? That's the first part of the question. The second part of the question is, how do you then bring along your officers and help them to understand? It's not really about them personally, you know, but it's about generally, you know, sort of serving all of the communities in a particular area. All right. You know what, I think, I think we'll do the first, we'll do the second part of your question first, because that's the part that's staying in my head right now. This is a conversation I have often. And I just have to just state, you know, it's not, I try not to come on to, especially like these kind of discussions and these kind of boards, and, you know, ever act like I have all the answers, you know, I think it's an insult to the leaders out there, particularly in law enforcement that are actually trying to make change. Okay, so I just like to say that I don't have all the answers. But I also have to say that I've been very fortunate where I came into Battleboro at this time, because it's the officers that have stayed there, you know, I have been able to have an open rapport with them. And I talk to my officers, it's not, you know, I don't come in, I'm not a nine to five person, I'm not an eight to four per, I'm there, I'm there, sometimes 10 at night, so I can see my night officers, I'm there on weekends, you know, I went in yesterday, I couldn't stay home, I went in yesterday, you know, because they need this constant reminder that if you're going to be officers for the community, you know, it's not going to be an easy thing. You know, we have a lot of trust issues that we have to rebuild, right? I'm very outspoken about criminals that happen to be in uniforms. Those are not police. And I don't consider them police. Okay, and I say that just because it's the truth. All right, but what I always say is that these officers that I've been fortunate enough to come into that have stayed the course that are doing their job every single day, that have been the morale has been at the bottom that it could always be. And I tell them all the time, you know, I appreciate you, whether you're good, bad, indifferent, I appreciate you. And if you're willing to learn, then that's what we're going to do. We're going to pick ourselves up and we're going to do what we need to get done. So once you start to know that, you have to be able to make your people realize that you remember that they're humans. The human beings, they make mistakes. Okay, if you make a mistake, let's come and talk about what your mistake is. Because you have to, I mean, especially coming here, I had to, like, I'm still learning so many things that I didn't know I couldn't say, or I couldn't do, or I couldn't be active. And I'm, you know, and I heard the assistant chief talk about the some of the prescriptions for officers. Well, I have to follow a prescription also. So I'm learning things in Vermont that I just never knew, you know, but what I do is I come in and I talk about those things with my offices. So I talk about those things I asked them, you know, I asked them point blank straight questions. Are you, you know, some people never had to deal with minority, you know, they never had to do it by pop, they've never had to deal with different people. You know, now this is the day and age that you're in. You know, and then I encourage them, well, you know, since we are getting more diversity, we are having more people come in that are from different cultures. Because a lot of times people mistake diversity for colors and forget about cultures. And I say, go learn, go find out, I do, you know, I do my research. Now, and if I'm not sure of something, then I ask. And if you ask, that's how you're going to learn. And I'm fortunate to have officers that are willing to do that. So, you know, so it's a little bit, I won't say totally easier for me, but I believe that some of the issues that are going on in Vermont right now with other departments, it's a little bit easier for me to be able to deal because it's on a smaller scale. And it's also officers that are willing to learn. My officers will sit and talk with me and ask me questions, you know, and we have straightforward conversations. You know, we talk about everything from the fact that I'm in Vermont, and I have to find some place to get my hair done. Okay, so they know that we have those open conversations, those back and forth, you know, I'm part West Indian. So I can find some place to eat, you know, like that I want the fruit that I like, even those little things. And I tell them, now take those things that we talk about and think about how that might be for other people that are relocated here and that are coming in from other places. All right. And so remind me of the first part. The first part was broadly, what do you see the major areas of reform that need to happen in the police department? And I want to put that in the context of, you know, in my, from my view, there are many of the same things that people who are white in the United States also have to work with, but I'm asking for your opinion on what are the major reforms within police? It's so many. Policeman is just, it is such a, well, you know, and that's the thing. Okay. So like you said, it's so many people. So I like that you, you know, put that first that it is other things that people have to deal with. And that's really what any other reforms now I think, I do believe that Vermont is really trying really hard to bring a lot of those things to fruition. You know, when I saw that you developed a statewide use of force, that's like, you know, no one's done that that that's outstanding. You know, because then that holds everyone accountable with certain principles. You know, the part about not utilizing police officers for immigration statuses. We actually did that at the Port Authority, we actually had that kind of policy at the Port Authority way back when. And so when I saw it here, I thought that's really, really a step. It's like this, these long, slow steps that have to happen. But the mere fact that you're even having these conversations, as far as reform, you know, are great. I do believe that some reform is just too much on the other spectrum. And I think that people have to be willing to sit to the table and maybe come here with reform. Because I think that most people that I speak to, and you know, and it's hard, I have to say that being in law enforcement, and being a black woman, you know, that that has had its own issues, you know, as far as community. So I think that you really have to sometimes say, no, you can't just, you know, that expression of baby with the bath water, you can't. If some of the things are just there, because most people that I know, that are within these communities want the same things, you know, they want to feel safe. They don't want to be harassed or bullied. And that's not just by police. They don't want to be harassed or bullied by under individuals, other individuals that would do that to them. So I think when you think like that, and you, you say you want change, you want this. And like I said, I'm not talking about the bad, I'm not talking about criminals that happen to be police officers, or they're not police officers, they happen to wear police uniforms. I'm not talking about that. We all know that that is not acceptable. What I'm talking about is the men and the women that come out and, and really try to do their job every single day, regardless of the fact that they're not accepted in community, especially nowadays, because they've been put into that group too. And then when you have minority officers and BIPOC officers that are still trying to do their job, you know, they get a whole, they get a whole nother level of being disenfranchised from their communities. So I think with some of the reforms are great. I think that a lot of them are excellent stepping stones. I think they're going to get some of them are hard to implement. But like I said, I'm really impressed with some of the ones that I've seen coming out here, because it shows that there's a willingness for change, which I like. And it's the reason that came out of the time. Thank you so much. Thanks. Commissioner Garrison. Hi, Chief. Thank you for being here. Hello. Thank you. It's glad to meet you. My question is more direct. It's a kind of piggybacking on Commissioner Comfort. But what, what kind of progressive police changes are you implementing currently in the rather broke police department? Are you, are you working with any consultant agencies or, you know, kind of like what we're doing with CNA and Nicole? Are you doing any of those things currently? Currently, we are actually is, we're doing quite a few things. And actually, I heard the conversation about the, the community officers. And that's one of the things that we started looking into implementing. So I'm going to be asking questions from the chief and the deputy chief about that, because that is one of the things that we started working on with our new town manager. And I need guidance in that. But that's one of the things that we are trying to implement. We also are working on creating a CIT team. I work with the fire chief of Battleboro, the mental health agencies, and also the emergency services agencies. We've been having meetings to try to develop a CIT team, because I believe that there are aspects and things that you don't need the police to respond to. And I'm a proponent of that. You know, I believe that if there is another alternative, we can use it. So I don't believe that, oh my, my, my, my, my, I'm not like that, you know, as long as everyone's safe in what they're doing. And I've heard good things about successes in that program. So that's why I'm going to talk about it. I also have implemented, I go and I ask questions of the other entities that we have. I believe in restorative justice. I think it's a great program. I just need to learn more about it. But the idea of it, I'm all for. You know, I love to be able to stop the pipeline, you know, the school, the jail pipeline. I find in Vermont that some of the conversations I have to have come from people that completely want to disarm the existing police. And I have a problem with that. I have an issue with that. And I have those conversations too. My first week here, we had at least three gun runs and we had at least three threats to a school for school shooting. So I think that when you, you know, and people don't want to hear that, they don't want to talk about that. It's not something I make up, you know, that's why I have an open door policy. I tell people to come in and we'll go for a ride along, you know, come ride with us. It's open to the community. And I think once the community, you know, really wants to have that conversation, I think then we can really talk about what things we can put in place. You know, and I also, I'll say this, what I find that I deal with a lot in vital growth is that people have great ideas. You know, they speak about great ideas. And when I say, okay, let's go try to put them into place. Let's see if that's something we can do. Then I hear credits. You know, so it's like everyone spouts them at me and throws them at me. And then I go, well, I'm listening. I really am listening. Let's go try to see will this actually work? Where can we get funding for this? You know, as a matter of fact, our town manager has actually, because I had such a shortage of police, what they did was they took some of the money that was left over from my budget. And we actually put it into a community fund. All right. And that now that belongs is not, it's not mine anymore. It belongs to our select board who can have people come in and say what can, you know, what programs can we get started with this? So we're moving very progressively. We're trying to put some of these reforms in place. So one more, one more question, quick question. I don't know if you I'm born and raised in Burlington for the last 53 years. So one of five families grew up on the system, lived in housing. My life is a little different today. Thank God. I was able to come out of it, you know. But, you know, I always go back in town. I always go back where my roots are and my memories of situations downtown. And, you know, lately, I've been seeing a lot of, you know, drug use, mental health is on the rise. Obviously, like the deputy chief was talking about, you know, we're at it, we're in a tough time right now with COVID. But what are you seeing in a lot of roles around mental health and drug use in your community? And what are you guys doing about that? I'm glad you asked that. I appreciate that question. Because I talk about this all the time, you know, I think that sometimes I get people that are kind of rose colored glasses kind of thing. And when I say it, they think that I'm trying to divert the conversation. And I'm not, I just want people to be aware, right? Because I've seen the drug use, in this past week, we have had six overdoses and three deaths. And that's been in just a week. And that is like, my detectives have 70 open cases of all kinds of things. But I really pay attention to these overdose deaths. Because I feel like it seems like so overwhelming sometimes. And it's like, it's not something that, you know, you have one on the one hand, you have people that don't want police intervention. But you know, what we do is when we go out, if one of my officers has a someone that it's a drug case or drug overdose that we happen to respond to or anything with drugs, we actually give them referrals to contact Project Care, which is our drug peer, peer group, you know, or else we'll call them and say, hey, can you come talk to this person and see if we can get this person in the rehab. And, and we've been doing that, you know, my department, my office has actually started the program. And, you know, because they were so concerned of everything they were seeing with the drug overdoses. So they actually stepped up because they want just talking, they actually started it. And it makes me laugh now, because now when I come in, and people talk to me about the Safety Committee review board that I have to discuss all the time, one of the things is, they don't want us involved in Project Care. And I'm like, okay, but you do realize that my office has started Project Care. But you know what, we meet with them monthly. We don't need to police them. We meet with them for support. And we use them as a resource. Because, you know, we are not both, no, I grew up in Brooklyn, right? And I work New York City EMS in the 80s. Do I need to tell you, right? Do I need to tell you what I saw every day, right? Because that was the ever of fact, you know. And so when you talk about these things, I'm glad to see like you, I'm going to appreciate in this honest conversation about it. Because, like I said, I grew up in Brooklyn, I'm from a family of 10. And, you know, I got out of it. Look at you now. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So, you know, when you got to talk to young people, you know, because what I'm seeing is people want to talk about the people as quick to talk about the drug crisis. But no one wants to talk about the drug dealers. You know, we have a drug crisis. But people who are addicted are getting drugs. So let us handle that. That's what you got the police for. That's what I want to do. Because someone's presiding the drugs. Someone's selling the drugs. Yeah. So, yeah, let's have an honest conversation about it there. You know, because Vattleboro is, you wouldn't think so. But I mean, it's really a lot. It's really prevalent. And drug dealing is really prevalent in Vattleboro because, you know, COVID has just imploded society right now. Because people, you know, I have people that come to me and tell me they're afraid that they're going to relapse. You know, I've had conversations with people that have told me that they've been clean for some years. And now they're afraid because you can get drugs like anywhere now. Because no one's been keeping that shit. You know, nobody's been paying that attention because you have so much other stuff going on. And think about this. With COVID and isolation, you have a rise in domestic violence. You have a rise in sexual assaults. Okay. All of those nitty gritty things that no one wants to sit down and have a conversation that's going on. And then realize that you do need us. You do need us. You might not need us for everything, but you need us for some things to keep that kill. So that's what I try to do. Just like, and I talk, I go out and I talk to youths if they'll have me, if they want me to talk, I go out. A lot of times I go out and play clothes. Because that's another thing that people feel like if I go out in uniform, I'm too militant looking. Or I don't know how I'm intimidated because me is my mouth, not what I wear. So I'm the same person in plain clothes that I am in uniform. But I respect their thoughts on it. So that's why I do it. So I think all of those combinations of things I have made, I've been able to make pretty good progress in the past six months that I've been here. I feel like I still have a lot to do. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you. Commissioner Comfort, would you mind waiting just one second? We have a Q, a question from the audience. Be happy to win. Okay. Chief Hardy, one of the members of the audience asked, how do you feel about citizen oversight committees working with law enforcement? You know, I think that they have a place. I think that they have to have a place with them. I worry sometimes about who decides who's on them. Who decides who are the people that are going to give a fair and partial. We talk about fair and impartial policing, but we also need to talk about fair and impartial oversight of police. And so that worries me sometimes. And that's what I was telling, we were talking about that this morning, how I appreciate this group, this commission, because of the fact that you are open to conversation. And I think if you have community oversight, I think it has to be a combination of both. I think that the oversight committees should sometimes have not just civilians, but also you may have to come to the table and talk with the people that are policing. You know, to really, and like, you know, and this other thing too, Stephanie, and I like to make sure that I make myself clear on this, because when I talk about, you know, you need people, you need leaders in policing, unless you're just someone that just does not want any police ever, you need leaders in policing that are willing to stand up and take the challenge and make the changes. But when those leaders stand up and do all of that, if they don't have the, if no one has their back, then it becomes too much for them, and they give up. And if that happens, then you'll never see change in policing that people that the communities are looking for. Thank you. Thanks. Commissioner Comerford. Thank you for that last comment. Norma, I think if it was, I think right on, I think we, it's a two-handed operation, you have to hold both at the same time. And you also have to be recognized as doing both at the same time. So my last question really is about how you as a chief, you know, how do you manage the situation when you find, you know, racial disparities in data? What do you do in the department with that? Well, the first thing I did, when I first took over, I did actually see the report, and I actually saw Stephanie's report on the car stops. And so the first thing I wanted to know, of course, is, you know, is this, is this here and why is it here? So I, that was just before we switched over. We just switched over to Balcor right now, but we were on Spillman. So I would have my management, office management team to pull me numbers and pull them as separate numbers. So I would, I would give, I would get reports each month of car stops, race of the car stops, what tickets were, were issued, the race of the people that received tissue, tickets, arrest, a breakdown of arrest, male, female, those kind of things. And what I think is that we're even with, even with data, because data can be true, but data can also, if you don't look beyond data sometimes, and I talked with Stephanie about this, if you don't look at other things within the data, that I think that it becomes more damaging. I think that when you have the data and what it could be about, you also have to look at what's going on at that time you're collecting it. You know, because I looked at, you know, and I still do, it's just that it's now I've stepped, we've actually taken a step backwards while we're all learning Balcor, not that we're, because I hear that it will be able to collect even more data. But we're still learning because we only went through it the beginning of the year. But I think that that's going to help because data, I don't have a problem with, but when you have data, I also want to be able to sit down and say, well, what does it actually mean? You know, what is the time of day? What is the group dynamic? What is the location? You know, depending on what data you're collecting, you know, if you're collecting, like the one that I read was the cost of inventable. So that's why I wanted to see what is, what are the cost of inventable? What are we, what have you been doing here and why? So that was one of them. We talked about other data. We had a data discussion, actually, where I said the same thing. So I say it the same way that I'm not afraid of data, but I just want to be able to sit down and say, well, let's break this data down because most, you know, the general public, they just will hear data and not understand what it actually means or says or what it, you know, how do you break it down? Most people don't know. Thank you so much. Thank you. Commissioner Grant. And then I have a comment from the audience. Thank you. First, I have to give a New York City shout out. I was born and raised Harlem, Washington Heights. I just got to say, hey, I had a question. So earlier, there was a reference to a report that we had done here in Burlington from a company called CNA, which is a review of our police department. And we also had another consultant do a report about the community's relationship with the police department. And I know there was something done similar. I'm just trying to find the exact name, the community safety review process. And they issued a report, which I'm sure is what you were referencing that you reviewed. In addition to some older data from when they were putting together the report that showed the that there were racial disparities. And then also within this report, the community feedback, especially from black citizens and black youth, reporting their difficulties with the police department. So I remember you did very early on, I don't even think you had been in your position for a week. And he had done an interview with VPR. And as you alluded to earlier, you've been having these many discussions within the community. When it comes to racial disparities that existed, not sure what the status is now, and the feelings within the community, how would you say you've been able to work through some of this with the community and with the officers in the department? What type of training have you enacted to help improve those relationships with the officers in the community and to lessen the racial disparities? Okay. Well, first of all, if you go to training, I've been fortunate because I've been able to reach out to certain people that I've known to have exceptional, they've been known to be the top in their field as far as training. And they've been known to have an honesty barrier and an ethical barrier because I think that what's happened now with all of the anti-police sentiment that has come about because of the actions of those that have done bad acts, there were also on the other side, people that were coming out and claiming to be experts at anything you want to know, we're experts and we'll treat you and we'll train you. And so I was fortunate to be able to reach into a plethora of being able to make phone calls and I've had individuals come and train my officers. I've had them come train them in de-escalation tactics, but I used a group that is world renowned for their de-escalation tactics. That group has actually now been called to come to Hawaii to train people there. The Vermont itself just making that you have to have an impartial policing, not only that you have to have the training for fair and impartial policing, but you have to model your policies and your procedures to fail impartial policing. So we follow all those guidelines and I actually, Battleground Police Department actually hosted one of the fair and impartial policing seminars. So we actually had them come to Battleground so that way we could afford other departments, smaller departments to come to us and do their training. You know, and with all of the, a lot of things have changed too since I've taken over. Before I even came to Battleground Police Department, there were some people that had left the department. So when I talked to people that and asked them, well, what has been your experience with Battleground Police Department? You know, I've talked to a woman that she felt that her son was overpoliced and I, you know, I've sat down and I've listened to her and we've had many discussions about that. And also, even with racial disparities, you know, I find myself that I once I listen to true stories of people that have felt these harms from policing or maybe, like I said, I don't want to think that everything has been just an outward and outright just a bad act because I don't feel that with the group that have stayed with the department. I don't know how to, you know, I can't comment on those that have left the department and I can't comment on if those things were going on. Some of them I think even now my officers understand that even any mistakes they've made, they're happy. Like, you know, when we talk about these things, even now when they interact, they're happy because they want people to know that that's not them. I think with us having the body worn cameras, I think that makes a lot of more interaction with the public that they know if someone makes a complaint, you know, they usually will call me directly. And if they make a complaint, they know that it doesn't just stay with me, that we fill out all paperwork, it goes to Vermont, Justice Council too, so they know that there's a complaint been made. I have an internal investigation and I also view all video. I view body cameras, I view dash cams, you know, and I submit everything away from me because that way I don't want anyone to feel like it's staying in house kind of thing. I think that works on building the trust with the community also. And what else are we doing? I have some other training that's coming up. I also have other ideas I have for my department that I'm very excited about. And I will talk about too the fact that when we talked about how you fill these gaps and get these people to come in, I'm very excited about some of the candidates that I'm bringing into the department. Thank you, that was great. I wanted to share a message with you from somebody in the audience since her name is Jackie Lehman. And she says my name at height, my name is Jackie Lehman. I'm a person with lived mental health challenges and I'm a team two steering committee member and training presenter. I'm also originally from Brooklyn and want to welcome you. I'm from Brooklyn tonight. Chief, that was wonderful. I want to just check with everyone to see if there are any last questions or comments. I can't thank you enough. This has been really helpful just to learn about what's going on in another town in Vermont, but also the perspective that you bring. We are really grateful for you taking the time to do this, Chief Harding. I'm saying thank you for having me. And also, like I told you, I had come to Burlington with Mr. Brown for the panel. And what I found really, really wonderful about Burlington was that you had a panel of people, totally different people there. And here I come and I'm actually the Pope. I'm telling everybody who I am now because no one knew when we came and it was just such an enriching thing to me and getting to sit down with George Floyd's brother and his sister-in-law was one of the things that I will always, always cherish. But also the fact that the young people, the young people, they were so respectful and they had serious questions for me. And I just want to say that. So that's my shout out to Burlington because you do have some future leaders there that, you know, you need to cherish them. Thank you. Chief Harding, actually, somebody just typed me that they sent a message and Shannon, I can't find it. It is Andy Higby. I wonder if you would mind promoting Andy to the panel so that they could ask Chief Harding their question. And then Chief Harding, I promise we'll let you go. Okay. Hi, Andy. You're muted, but when you're ready, if you'd like to go ahead and unmute and ask your question. Maybe here's the question. I got an email, so I'll read it. Andy is not unmuting, so it says, I applaud you for your accomplishments throughout your amazing 27th career. And I appreciate your time tonight. I love hearing about your career course. Congratulations to you in breaking the glass ceiling. And please keep going. I have to say much of what you are doing runs parallel to what I understand BPD and Chief Murad are doing. I'm not surprised since Chief Murad, you two seem to be a change agent. I'm happy to hear that what you are doing already, that what they are doing at BPD already is being recognized. From what you have seen and read most recently about Burlington, what is one nugget of advice from your experience that you would give to Chief Murad from your point of view? You know, I've actually spoken with Chief Murad. So, you know, we've talked and I will say that I applaud this person for recognizing him as being an agent of change. You know, I think it's not a whole lot of just it's not one thing I can say when Chief Murad, you know, because I feel like that's really not fair for me to just be like, hey, I'm going to give you this magic pill and you just take this and it's all going to be all good. You know, I think that it's a continual conversation that we need to have. And as leaders in law enforcement and as change makers, I like to have open conversations with other law enforcement individuals, particularly leaders. But, you know, I'll talk to a law enforcement leader and I'll talk to a law enforcement officer. I'll talk to a patrol officer, because sometimes right from the bottom. So I think that that's the one thing I would say is that keep that door open for all of your people, especially the ones that are out on the streets on the on, you know, boots on the ground people, because sometimes I think the other ones that don't feel like they're being heard, and that, you know, will damage your morale of the people that have stayed the course. Thank you. Thanks so much. A round of applause from everybody for the change. So thank you so much. I really appreciate you. Thank you. This was great. Thank you. And I need you to contact me. I have questions. I think I spoke to one of your supervisors already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my captain. Yeah, please feel free anytime. I'd love to share what we've done so far. Absolutely. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Back to you, Chair Gabbach. Awesome. Thank you, co-chair Sigrino. And thank you. Sorry for being here. Really appreciate it. All right. Back to the agenda. We are on 6.01, which is an ethics statement for the commissioners. And I just want to preface this and say that I don't believe we're going to be putting on a code of ethics for the commission at this point in time, but we did post to the board docs the code of ethics from NACL. And I hope it's here to kind of talk about a little bit, see what parts we like and parts we don't like, and see a path forward in trying to adopt some sort of code of ethics for the commission. So with that, I open the floor to Susie. Even if you did, I'm sorry. No, I'm the one who should be sorry. I should be paying attention. So I think where we are tonight really is to just, everybody has a copy. And I guess we've gotten some communication from the city lawyer that we need to chat about at another time. But maybe just think about in general, if we could get a sense from folks, if there's something that we think we should move forward with and get a sense of the group, that will be good. And then think about what kind of process we might use to move it forward. That's what I would suggest for tonight before we get into a conversation about the code itself. That's a proposal we can either accept or reject. And the floor is open. That makes a whole lot of sense to me. I'm happy for anyone else who didn't put on that. Shree. Yeah, thank you. I'm grateful you brought that forward. I think it's a great idea for us to look at it and develop our own based stuff of that as a starting point. I think it's a great idea. So thank you. Just in terms of process, if we followed the model that several of the city council committees do, we would draft a code of ethics based on this one if we want to and add revisions to it. And then we would run it by the lawyers for any input. So first of all, I think it's a great idea. And I think then that would be the process if the chair would like to designate somebody to work on that draft with input and then sequence this with input from the lawyers. I would like to suggest you and Stephanie on this one, only because I think everybody else is working on other things right now, which is around the bat way to say that I don't have any more time to do that. We're still working on the mental health stuff. And so there we go. Honestly, it's the best policy. I think all of our heads are in a little bit pops right up, but I mean, I'd be happy to work on this for a little bit. I had, yeah, I got to thank me for a week and then I'm on vacation for 10 days. But yeah, I mean, Stephanie's a medal to that. I'd be happy to work here or that. Or if anyone else wants to volunteer, I will always take a volunteer, but if not, be happy to help. I'm happy to help as well to weigh in. I'm also happy to help at the tail end for input. So it seems like there's agreement that this is something that we want to do. I think it, I think that we maybe consult with Haley for some advice on the process, but the, the, the nickel cold code of ethics is on board docs. And I wonder if anybody has any specific comments about that code of ethics right now that they want to talk about? Or would we say that we're in general in agreement and then work through the legal details with the lawyers? We just have a show of hands, you know, for, for agreement that we should go forward with this. Yeah, I, I think all the work is mostly done on that report already on that code of ethics. I mean, I read the whole thing. I could read it a couple more times. There's a lot there, but I think the work is pretty much done there. And it's just tweaking it from, from here. And working with the lawyers on this. Okay. Yeah, exactly. All right. So I would just suggest that then we put this on the agenda for the next meeting and in the interim that we have a conversation with the lawyers and come up with our own draft, which will be up for public, which we would take up at our next meeting in March. Sounds like a good move. Yeah. Haley, do you have any, any, is that sound okay with you? That sounds great to me. You know, Dan and I have kind of talked back and forth about this a bit after you sent it over, Stephanie, and I think it'll be, it'll be good for us to, to have a conversation and, and talk about how we can tweak what's already a really good general document and make it work within the, the structure that exists for the commission currently, as far as authority that it has under the charter right now and how we can make it applicable and work best for this group. But I think it's, I agree with Dan Fully. I think it's an excellent idea. Great. Okay. That sounds great. Thanks. That's easy. So I would just like to just remind us all again that police reform is not just in the police. It's in all the associated, you know, organizations and support systems within it. And so it's not just changed within the police. It's changed within the entire system. Just want to keep reinforcing that because we keep focusing. I know with the police commission, the police are appended by a larger institution that also needs to change. So I just want to put that out there again. Awesome. Any further questions or comments or discussions on this agenda item? Not seeing or hearing any. With that, we should move on to agenda item 6.02 update on the mental health summit. And with that, I give the floor right back to Susie. Okay. So we had a discussion about this at the mayor's meeting. Both the one that I attended, I think also the one that Stephanie and that group attended. And Jordan has connected with Lacey Smith from the CSLs. And also Mariel Matthews from REIB. And those two are basically doing most of the planning it looks like because of their work already ongoing with Comstant. So there was a meeting on 216, Stephanie, Susie and Milo. And then the summit is now being planned for some time around early April, but my suspicion is it's going to go longer than that. Anybody want to add anything to that who is also present? That's good. And maybe I'll just add one thing. This is informational for the commission, but also the community that's listening. And that is that we discussed with the mayor, the RFP, for the CAHOOTS type model. And we understand that will be going out soon. And it's very possible that by the time the mental health summit happens, that there will be proposals in so that will enrich that summit as well. Thank you both for those updates. Anyone have any further questions or comments with regard to this? I'm not seeing or hearing any. Close that out and move on to agenda item 6.03, which is an update on some of the policy reviews and original processes that we've been working on. And specific D13.02 and 3, personal diminished capacities, personal disabilities, and on our complaint policy. Well, we can start with D13.02 and 3. And with that, I give the floor to commissioners Hart and Cumberford. After you, she said politely. So, Commissioner Cumberford was kind enough to write up a good report of where we are now. And that's on board docs and with the agenda. So our goal is to have draft revised policies by the end of April. I think it was by the beginning of April. I'm sorry, beginning of April. And so we've had two meetings so far. We're meeting again this Friday. At this point, we've invited the police, the department to redline the two policies to get a better sense of current practice and more accurate depiction of their practices. And we are the information gathering. Yes, sorry. Could you explain to everybody what redlining means? Yes. So we've asked them to edit the current policies to indicate changes. Whether it's removing material, adding material, just to make those policies an accurate depiction of where they stand and what they're doing. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. Any commissioners have any questions about that process? I'm not seeing or hearing any. That will move on to the complaint policy. So, Commissioner Garrison and I met on this. We developed a list of areas for changes based on the recommendations in the CNA report, based on recommendations from Nicole, who reviewed the complaint policy. And our next step is to work with the chief with regard to the changes. Some of them are changes to the process of the complaint itself and also to get input on the complaint process from stakeholders. And in particular, that means connecting with people that have filed complaints or have had difficulty filing complaints or have used it and are happy with the process. So we have to figure out what that is going to look like. How are we going to get that input from stakeholders? I actually would welcome some input from fellow commissioners. One possibility is that we ask people who have filed complaints or have tried to file complaints since the new policy was adopted, which was August 25th of 2020. That's really the complaint policy that's being reviewed not prior to that. And so there are a variety of ways to do outreach to get that input, whether it's done through an online portal or many other mechanisms. I would welcome any thoughts of commissioners on how to do that. I want to just add one thing before I say that and our attorney Haley, if you might have more to say about this, but in the interim, in the last several months, the Public Safety Committee is changing the ordinance around the authority of the commission. And so some of that is going to impact the complaint policy. So we have to work in tandem with those changes and we'll be meeting with our attorneys to learn what those city ordinance changes are. So it's kind of a complex process of both wanting to revise it, but also having to wait for the ordinance process at the city council as well. So two things. One, if Haley has anything to add and two, if any of you have any suggestions to add about how we might get input from people who have used the complaint process or who have had trouble using it. Haley, do you have anything to add to that in terms of timing, for example? Yeah, not too much other than to say that I can confirm that there have been discussions about changing or adding some language to the ordinance along those lines. My understanding is that it's still in sort of the development and review phase. So what ultimately ends up sort of being a final more polished product to go forward, if it goes forward at all, I think is still in flux is really all I can say at this time. And my understanding is at some point in the near future that the commission would be consulted once other stakeholders have had a chance to weigh in on the language as well is my understanding. And that's my best knowledge to date and just know that that it could it's things are always in flux. You know, in the city, things happen very fast. So I try to stay abreast. And if any of that is outdated, I will certainly update the commission. Thanks. Awesome. Thank you for that question, Susie. Well, it's not a question. It's a response to Stephanie's second question. I wonder, you know, if we could do some public relations work and either put it online somewhere or an ad of some kind that would invite people in to respond to this. The other possibility is we probably have a record of the people who have been in those situations, you know, through the police records. I don't know what the ins and outs of doing that are to contact someone in that way. I'm not sure what the legalities of that are. But if we put out some kind of a public call that might bring people to us, it'd have to be a call with, you know, some kind of an address to respond to. But those are some thoughts. Thanks. One other thing I wanted to add to that is if we could get a reporter to do a story on looking at the work of the police commission revising policy, and then they might, you might be able to get them to highlight this policy and the need for people to come to us to talk about their experiences so we can use the wisdom of their experiences going forward. I don't know. I don't know if that any of these things are legit or not, but their thoughts. That sounds good. We'll check on their legitimacy, but they're good ideas. Thanks. Shereen, do you by any chance have any thoughts on that? Issues of confidentiality? I'm happy to think about things more, but not sitting here. Apologies. I'm just, I have to think about it more, but I'm happy to weigh in and, you know, happy to meet with you offline. Great. Thanks. Thank you. I just wanted to add that I think the majority of people that probably are putting in complaints probably aren't on, you know, front porch form or, you know, our neighborhood form. So they, maybe we need to dig a little deeper to kind of find the best way to kind of polish off that process. Yeah, I think that's really important. And one of the issues we want to find out is how accessible is the complaint process. One of the things that we advise, we got from Nacoal on this just to give you an idea, is that they suggested that any complaint form have paid postage attached to it so that the person could mail that in without having to find a stamp to mail it in, for example. So there are a bunch of innovative ideas, but we do want to reach even those people who may have wanted to file a complaint, but for a variety of reasons, the process hasn't been accessible. So once again, that's really the big challenge in doing the outreach, but we'll work on it. Yeah, one thing I actually do want to point out is that you're reminding me of our conversation where this is a change in our practice. We had previously invited folks to approach individual members of the commission to help facilitate complaints. But no, I think one of the outcomes of Nacoal and speaking to them was that that isn't a great idea to have commissioners involved in the taking of the complaint. Right. And just to say that the staff person that is being recruited that will support our work might be that person instead of us. So there are a variety of balls in the air that might be solutions to some of these things, including that one. Okay. We don't have an ETA, by the way, unlike we are a little bit later to start than Shireen and Susie on the mental health policies. So we may be more towards the end of April or mid-May, for example, for this change. And that also will really depend upon the city's ordinance and how fast that progresses as well. But there's a lot of work we can do now even before that piece is done because some of these things don't depend upon the city ordinance. Milo. Thank you. I just wanted to mention that in one of the community meetings that to leave the consultants had, there was actually some really good feedback about barriers to the complaint process, even the online process, such as the lack of multiple language. As we all know, we have a lot of languages that are spoken in Burlington and the lack of the languages that were available online and some other things. So it's possible we may want to go look through that to see if we can get some information that would be useful. Great. That's a great idea. Thank you. We'll go back to that then. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you for those updates, everybody. If anyone has any more questions or comments, I'm not seeing or hearing any. And with that, we should move on to agenda item 6.04, which is an update to update for the commission on the CNA recommendations being done by the public safety committee ad hoc committee. I will start out and if I missed anything, I know Milo shall correct me. So we met this past month, every Tuesday. We have finished, I guess, personally back up, we were out there in the public. The public safety committee was tasked by city council to write a report on how to implement the recommendations on the CNA report that came out back in September. We are working on four sections of that and we just finished section one of that. And within section one, there was a fair amount of BPLA bargain ball recommendations on there. And while our report isn't due for another month or so, we did come to consensus and decide to pass on the BPLA recommended, bargain ball recommendations to city council, to the council president Tracy, just so they can be part of the negotiating process when they'll start, which I believe is relatively soon. We didn't want to drop the ball on that one. We were supposed to meet tonight, but we were unable to due to the holiday yesterday. City council meeting today. Next week, we're not meeting as well due to town meeting day. And so we'll be picking back up on March 8th. And the next three sections are significantly shorter in recommendations than section one. So it is our hope to be able to finish up sections two, three and four by the end of March and then hopefully submit that report by I believe the first week of April. And if I missed anything there, you know, please jump in. But I think I might have covered most, if not all. Yeah, the only thing that I would mention is that there is this, so we took the recommendations and we put them in the spreadsheet. And so as we're making updates in terms of prioritizing the recommendations and indicating who's following up on the recommendations, it's being updated and it's being posted to board docs for the public safety committee. So for members of the public and members of the members of the commission that want to look at that information, you have access to see that information just as FYI. And as we continue to go through the other sections, we'll continue to update and then the most updated spreadsheet will be posted. Something that's problematic right now is that even though the meetings are being recorded, they're not being posted. So for those individuals on the commission or the public who would like to listen to those meetings, there isn't access to those right now unless you ask for the Zoom links, which I find to be highly unusual and very problematic. I've bought up the issue multiple times. For some reason, the public safety meetings, they were posted through December but nothing's been posted for January or the February meetings. So I did send out an email again just asking for update on the situation and hopefully we'll get an answer, but I believe very strongly that as previously we've been posting all these meetings, they should be posted. And I'm getting kind of a very general, you know, like it's some type of oversight or there was confusion as to whether meetings are previously. I'm not really sure, but I'm just something that I personally am working on because I believe very strongly all of the, all these processes that we were working on need to be accessible. And so the bottom line is I'm just going to continue to work on that and I'll let members of the commission know once they're available in case you want to listen to them in addition to looking at the spreadsheet to see how we discuss the different items and how we came to the decisions that we made about the priorities, etc. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you very much, Mila. Thank you very much for that. Any questions or comments for us with regard to that? Was that a hand raised by Shannon? Sorry, I just, Commissioner Grant, I was just going to speak to the recording, they did reach out to me and asked how we are able to get ours recorded so I provided them the information so hopefully they will reach out to Town Meeting TV to take care of that. I had personally reached to them to record the joint commission and so I just think it was just an oversight on their part that they didn't understand or know that that was how they were supposed to do that or something. So hopefully I'm with you. I hope that gets rectified soon and that they do end up getting recorded. Thank you so much for that update, Shannon. I appreciate it. No problem. Any other questions or comments with regards to this agenda item? Not seeing or hearing any. Close that out. Move on to agenda item 7.01, just to use the force to listen to the report. This is post to the board docs when the agenda was posted and I hope we had time to review it. If there are any issues stand out, we want to have a view. Please let me deselect right now and they will forward those to us. I saw a couple of hands up. First up I saw was Kevin followed by Stephanie. Yes, so I read those UOFs and you know I don't have any major concern but I do think it's important that we do audit periodically certain body camps. So I'm going to request 1 and 4, number 1 and 4, if you could do that, DC. How long does it usually take for those to be sent to us? I know you guys are kind of busy. I'm sorry. I just didn't mean to. Yeah, I needed. Sorry. Thank you, Commissioner. It's easier if I know the incidents like these are already here. It's easier to send them to you. You have that 3-day window to look at them. If it falls outside of that, you can email me back and let me know. So 1 and 4, you said? Yeah, 1 and 4. Okay. Thank you. Yep. Any other ones? I'm sorry, Stephanie was right. DC LeBret, we had talked about an incident in executive session the last time and requested the video. Same issue. We sometimes can't get to it in 3 days and I had asked Chief Murat if he could reissue that and I wonder, I think he was going to talk to you but I wonder if you could send that to us as well. Yep. I believe the chief did reach out to us via email. At least I thought I saw something about that particular video. He did respond by saying that he was going to ask DC LeBret. They do us and I think, understandably, you've been busy. Okay. Yep. I got that. I can do that tomorrow. That would be great because I know my spam filter is acting up. Sometimes our emails just out of nowhere start shooting things that I know this video went into the spam filter. Yeah, so I discovered it after the 3 days it expired. So that would be great. Thank you. Yep. Susie, I think I saw your hand up there. Is the 3-day period one that is typical for the department? Yeah. Does all of us have other full-time jobs? So 3 days often doesn't work for us. I'll look in the system and see if maybe I can find a longer period. Thank you. Maybe 5 days or something like that. 5 days would be much better. Thank you. Yep. Okay, I'll get that down. Any other questions or comments with regards to the use force apart? Yeah. There's one that mentions that medication had to be administered. I don't, I can look it up. I'm sorry. I don't even have... That's number 6, I believe. Is it 6? And I was just wondering, do we know if that's a ketamine case? Yep. That was the, based on, that was the fire department that did that. I had nothing. We had no input into that. So that's number 6? Number 6, yep. Okay. Thank you. This actually reminds me of Milo's comments in the fall about making sure we have the ketamine conversation just also with the fire department. Just want to note that. Yes. I thought about that as well. I, you know, I just, I don't know. I mean, we're not medical professionals to be, you know, suggesting what someone needs for medicine. You know, it's not the police that are doing it. And I think, you know, we're pretty much our... We're oversight of the police department, not the fire department or the EMS. So I think we, you know, just need to concentrate on what, you know, we're supposed to be doing. But I know it's very important conversation. But, you know, like I said, it's not the police that are administering this. Well, I definitely hear what you're saying. Ketamine is a legitimate drug that has legitimate uses in provider offices. When administered by EMS professionals in response to calls from the police department, it is shown nationally to have wide, wide racial disparities. And there are numerous lawsuits. The Elijah McClain case, two EMTs are actually facing charges because it was, they didn't do due diligence when administering it. So it is a very complicated issue. I believe if there is a need for someone to be medicated, that there are other options that what we would need to ask to be looked at, because yes, we are the police commission, but because our police department works with EMS or EMTs when they show up and is also giving them information. And in the case of the Elijah McClain, that whole situation, I encourage anyone who's not familiar with that particular case to definitely review it. It is a case that contains a lot of elements related to numerous lawsuits across our country. And I think it is something that we have to look at or encourage the fire department to look at and maybe the Public Safety Committee to look at to say this needs to be looked at and these uses within our city because it's not really a drug that I feel is being used appropriately. And then there's just so much being written about it right now. I'm happy to share some information about it. It's being used in a way that it's not meant to be. And it's also being used and people aren't being told what it is that they may not be in a state to really give permission to be injected. And if their loved ones are there and are not being told what's being used, then they don't really have an option to say no. That's one of the things that we have to think about as well because we know this can kill people because it has. So those are my thoughts on the issue. Thank you. If I can just add one point to Commissioner Grant, I agree with you. It is something that needs to be looked at, but I just think with the work that we're doing, we have enough work going on that for us to go outside of our responsibilities as oversight committee, police commission, it's a lot. But I just want to say, fentanyl is a drug that is commonly used in the hospital. You know, my sister and I had a big discussion with the hospital about administering fentanyl to my mother. And she didn't know what she was getting. And this was years ago, but it's the same situation where these people are not in a state. There's usually nobody around them and they're in a horrific situation. They're going through something tremendous. And I think it's why I stand on that. We may have to have a private conversation because unfortunately we can't talk about issues that are talked about in executive session. But we have seen an issue where a loved one had to give permission for someone to be medicated and would not have given permission had they known it was ketamine. So if there's a loved one there and they're being asked questions but are not giving the full information, that is problematic. And I do recognize that this is not something that, yeah, we've got a lot to do. I personally feel that this is an extremely important issue due to the misuse of this drug by police departments and by EMTs. And the fact now that we could potentially have our EMS people in our city in a situation where they could be subject to charges for using it. Because we now have this case that's setting precedent. But speaking on what we do, it may be a referral to the public safety committee, the city council's public safety committee, to say this is something that you need to be looking at because it affects public safety overall even though it's through the fire department because the EMTs are managed by the fire department. So just so you know that this also would involve the ER because that's where the permission actually comes from. So you'll have to get the folks up at the ER involved as well because it's a three, it's their communication between the paramedics and the EMTs and the ER doctors. So that would say it has to be part of the conversation too. Yes, I'm aware of that and thank you so much for that reminder. And also just whoever can be told as well because we're looking at a case where there was a loved one there who was not fully, was not given the information that she was expected to receive. So there's a lot of different ways to look at this and especially, yes, they call up to the ER but if you're not talking to someone who is a regular medical provider for an individual, the use of that type of drug is what other things do we have available. So that would be things that the Public Safety Committee would need to take a look at. And the national trends and things that are being discussed nationally and changes that are being made nationally, we have to be paying attention to that here in Burlington. We really, really do. We can't keep doing things because we always have done them. So that is another concern that I have. That answer of well, we've always done things that way. That concerns me because I hear that too much sometimes. Thank you. I just want to encourage the two of you to have a conversation offline about this and if you come to anything that you want to share to bring it back. I think this is really important also. But I think if you and Commissioner Kevin have a conversation that might be good. Awesome. Thank you for that. And I was going to say that's the last comment on this because I know we could be here all night talking about this. But yeah, I definitely encourage chat between that. All right. Moving on to agenda item 8.01, accommodations were received for January 2022. With that I give the floor to Shannon. I just have one to share that someone sent in for a heartfelt thank you to the officers who responded to their location last evening. It actually turned out to be a false alarm. But the feedback that they received from the employee was that the officer was met with one of appreciation. He was professional attentive to the situation and very understanding. And she thanked him for responding and what seemingly now after the fact ended up being nothing but that he could have been on more pressing business but felt that the officer gave her the time and that's what mattered. And she sent her thanks over for a job well done. So that is all. Awesome. Let's take it for that. Suzy, do you have a question? Not now. No. Thank you. Oh, sorry. Sorry, Henry. My apologies. No, sorry. All right then. Moving on to agenda item 9.01, commissioner updates or comments. And time of the meeting where commissioner may give an update or comments for us public. This is your time. Suzy. I promise I won't talk so much the next time. I just want to send out a gentle reminder to all of us that in a few short days, it's going to be March 1st. And in a few short weeks, it'll be June. We need to have some discussion about what we're going to do in terms of who's going forward for another session or whatever we call it and who's not. So we also need to be thinking about, you know, possible replacements and et cetera, et cetera. So I just want to put that on the table. As a surviving member, I want to make sure that I'm not sitting, Kevin and I are sitting by ourselves. Very true. And I make a promise to have a decision with that by next meeting. So I give you an update on that. Yeah, maybe we should make it an agenda item so that it calls the question on all of us who are on the table. I believe it is four of us. Yeah. I would issue a gentle reminder and a plea that we think about continuity through change. If change is to happen, we need continuity to make it happen and to see things through. Especially at a time when the police department's at very low numbers. I hope I really agree with that. Awesome. Thank you for that, Susie. Any other questions or comments or updates? I am not seeing or hearing any, which brings us to agenda item 10.01, which is next meeting agenda items. I know Stephanie had to sign or had to jump to a different thing, so I don't think she's currently present here. But a couple things that she sent me and that we discussed already for next meeting. The ethics discussion. I'll provide another CNA committee update. We have an update on the policy reviews that we're working on. And for the educational component, I believe Stephanie is going to set up having some of the ACLU speak with us next meeting. The next meeting will be on March 22nd, which is the fourth Tuesday of the month. And I'm forgetting anything. Please jump in. And as always, the agenda item is set in stone from what we say here. We can always add things as the month plays out. So if something comes up, please let myself, Stephanie, or Shireen know. If I'm not hearing anything else to add for next meeting agenda items, I would entertain a motion to adjourn. So I think Susie, your hand is up by hair. So I would like to let Shireen go ahead, please. Motion to adjourn by Shireen, seconded by Susie. All in favor of adjourning to say aye. I think Technus and Stephanie is present in the meeting but didn't say anything. I didn't have to do a roll call. I vote in favor of adjourning the meeting. Susie. In favor. Shireen. In favor. Milo. Yes. Kevin. And Stephanie in abstaining. So that is 5-4, one abstaining. With that, I think everybody for, am I forgetting anything? Hailey, am I forgetting anything? I don't think so unless you wanted to make mention of tomorrow night's meeting as well. Yes, sorry. Tomorrow, as of late, we'll be holding our executive session the day after a regular meeting just so we don't stretch till the late hours of the night. And I messed up and thought I could send that out a little Monday, but it was a holiday. So it was the proper 2048 hour notice. We're meeting tomorrow at 6 p.m. for executive session. And that is the sole thing on the agenda other than public form. So if you want to join in for that, that's at 6 p.m. tomorrow. And I think that's about it. So with that being said, thank you everyone for being here. Have a great night and I'll see most of y'all tomorrow at 6 p.m. Thanks.