 Right, I am not seeing. I'm not seeing the first media. It's going to be one of those nights. So, Mike. Yes. I've been to some interesting places going off Janet. Hickory Ridge. Yes. Makes for a wonderful dog walking place now. Yes. I know, but that's how us, you know, the dog owners have to kind of go by that, you know, Christine, I do see Amherst media now in the attendees. So they're ready to record. Have you gotten text confirmation? Well, I knew that they were standing by, but then I said I didn't see them. And they are there. They're ready. Okay. Great. I see recording. Okay. I will call this planning board meeting to order. Welcome to the Amherst planning board meeting for June 3rd, 2020. Based on governor Baker's executive order, suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law, GL, chapter 30, a section 20, and signed Thursday, March 12th, 2020. This planning board meeting is being held virtually using the zoom platform. I'm going to call this meeting to order at 6.33. This meeting. This meeting is being recorded and is available live stream via Amherst media. Minutes are being taken as normal. I will now take a roll call. Board members. As you hear your name called unmute yourself, answer affirmatively, and then please place yourself back on mute. Michael Burt whistle. Yeah. Maria Chow. Here. Jack Demsic. Here. David Levenstein. Here. Doug Marshall. Here. Janet McGowan. Here. Board members. If technical difficulties arise, we may need to pause temporarily to rectify the problem and then continue the meeting. If you do have technical issues, please let Sean of it or Pam know. Discussion may be suspended while the technical issues are addressed and the minutes are up. Please use the raise hands function to ask a question or make a comment. I will see you raised hand and call upon you to speak after speaking. Remember to remute yourself, please. Opportunity for public comment will be provided during the general public comment period. Which is held towards the beginning of the meeting and at other appropriate times throughout the meeting. Please be aware. The board will not renew the meeting. If you wish to make a comment during the public comment period, you must join the meeting via the zoom teleconferencing link. This link is shown on the slide. And it can be entered into a search engine. The link can also be found on the meeting agenda, which is located on the town website in two ways. One is to go through the calendar listing for this meeting, which is on the site of the meeting. If you wish to make a comment during the public comment period, you must join the meeting via the zoom teleconferencing link. The link can be found on the calendar listing for this meeting, which is on the town homepage. And then find the link within the event details. A second way is to go to the planning board web page and click on the most recent agenda link. And on the agenda, there's a link towards the top of the page where it states virtual meeting. Which you will see the agenda in a few minutes. Please indicate you wish to make a comment by clicking the comment. If you have joined the zoom meeting via telephone, please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your telephone. When called on, please identify yourself stating your full name and address and put yourself back on mute when you're finished speaking. Residents are welcome to express their views for up to three minutes and at the discretion of the planning board chair. If these guidelines are not complied with or the speaker exceed their allotted time, their participation will be disconnected from meeting. If you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your telephone, please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your telephone. Included on tonight's agenda item four is a joint public meeting with the community resources committee of the town council known as CRC. The board and the CRC intend to discuss a plan for approaching zoning by law revisions. This item is expected to begin approximately at seven 45 p.m. I also would like to note that under new business on our agenda item four, I would like to make a comment on this. I would like to make a comment on this. Article 14. The temporary bylaw that's being discussed right now. And we will have Q and A for planning board members only and not the public at this time. The public will have time to comment on this and they're always welcome to send in emails. And that will be coming up at our next meeting. And we will also have another. Public comment tonight. We're discussing another possible bylaw on. Planning board voting requirements. And that also will not be taking public comment tonight due to time because we have an extremely full agenda. And we want to get through it all tonight. Hopefully in less than four hours, right? Everybody. Okay. So without further ado, I'm going to move to the agenda. We see it there on the screen. We have a virtual meeting link. The first item is minutes, but we have no minutes is my belief. And I'm just pulling up a 10 D. So I can see any possible hands because I'm going to move to item two, which is the public comment period. So at this time. You can speak on something that is either not going to be discussed tonight, but I'm going to move to item three. Public comment. Right now I see nothing, but I do Pam see two phone call-in listeners. They do not have their hands up. I do not see their hands up. Nope. Okay. Great. So we're going to move to item three now. Public hearing site plan review. We have two of them tonight. I'm going to go to the first one and read the preamble. Do I have enough? Yes, we do. I'm going to move to item three. I'm going to move to item four. I'm going to move to item eight. So in accordance with the provisions of MG. L chapter 40 a, this public hearing has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and is being held for the purpose of providing the opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding. SPR 2020 dash there are nine. All about learning LLC. Seven Pomeroy Lane units one through five request site plan to accommodate tenant lease area expansion. And to approve the expansion of the preschool into units one, two, three. Sorry. Three map 20 C 29. B VC zoning district. Chris, I just want to call on Chris best trip. Are you there? I just got a phone call from her. Pam, do you know where it's go? Can you hear me, Chris? Oh, Okay. Did the zoomie thing go? That's weird. Is, can you tell her to, to come back in? Hmm. Hello. She's here. Texting me, I think. I cannot hear Christine. Oh, she cannot hear Christine. Hello. Hello. Hello. Yeah, hi. This is Dwight Scott calling into the meeting. Oh, okay. Great Dwight. We're trying to get Christine back in. I think I'm here. I have no idea what happened. She cannot hear me either. Can you hear me? I'm here. And is Chris there? Let me look at the camera. I can hear you, Christine Allen sharp. I can hear you. Yeah. I can hear you. I can hear you. And see me. Yes. Okay. She's trying to call it. Yeah. I would go out and come back in. Yeah. All right. Okay. Something. Yeah, you can hear me though. I can hear you. And see me. Chris was saying she could not hear anybody. Strange. And my zoom screen just disappeared. It left the viewing panel up, but the presentation disappeared. So I don't know what happened, but we'll give her just a moment here. So could you hear me read the preamble? Are we good there? Okay. I heard you read the preamble. Yes. Chris isn't here, but I will ask the board. Are there any board member disclosures? And I'm looking at hands. I don't see any. So we'll give Chris a moment here. I'm here. Great. Great. Welcome back. We're going to have the applicants presentation. And who do we have to speak for all about learning? We have Alan Sharp. And I think we have. We have a lot of. And we have a lot of, a lot of things that is going to speak for us. And I think is, um, is Judy on the line cause she was having trouble earlier. Judy Wilder on the line. She is here as an attendee. She is there. And she's got her hand up. I'm going to actually move her into a panelist. All right. Thank you. So, and there's three phone numbers. Are those public or any of you like is one Dwight? I know Dwight was on I heard him earlier. Yep I don't know where he went. Oh is this him? Hello? Can you hear me? 978-544-2773. Yeah that's Judy. That's Judy okay. Dwight it should be 478-3913. You see that? I'm here I guess. I just heard him a minute ago. No I do not see Dwight. He was here. I'm on Zoom. Good luck guys. They're wonderful. I will ask the members of the board to mute themselves because sometimes when there's a lot of feedback like that if more people get off the system. Did you see Dwight come back? I'll call Dwight. Oh here he is. Oh he's back. Okay good. I'm gonna promote him to panelists. Great. He's back. Let's see if he makes it over there. Yes Dwight can you hear Dwight? Yeah unmute him. Yeah I've unmuted him. Dwight Scott are you there? Yes. Can you hear me? We can hear you. So we're at that part I don't know if you've been watching but we are at the point where the applicant can give a presentation on what's going on with this SPR for all about learning. Okay I'm having a real hard time hearing you for some reason. Hold on. Can you hear me better now? It's real. I'm trying to adjust my volume here. I'm gonna listen as close as possible. Go ahead. Okay we're at the point where we listen to the applicant talk about their application for the SPR. Okay. So if you and if there's anything you'd like up on the screen a certain drawing or I can show you what I have. I have this. Can you see the screen? Yeah that would be fine. So we've we are applying for all about learning. It's a daycare center that's going to expand into spaces one two and three and by doing so it's prompting that we have a larger play area in the rear and so we're going to accommodate them by doubling the size of the play area by basically lengthening the same cross section of the play area that's there now down to the west end of the building. That's basically what we're applying for. If we can notice there's yeah that's where you're pointing now that's the new play area that's proposed okay and connecting to the old play area this is existing play area existing sand play area. Yeah so I believe this all came to the planning board back in 2016 so a lot of this is an expansion of what it was already approved and has been in existence. This is because you're expanding into another two units which you can see their unit which are the ones removing one in one of the new units one two and three. Okay and you were in four and five so a lot of this is expanding that play area expanding fences and adding gates for the safety of transporting the children from the building to the play area. That's correct. At this point we could go to the site visit. I think I had I think David volunteer to give a site report. Sure um well a healthy crew from the planning board met our leaders Christine and Chris at 7 Pomeroy Lane where we met Judy Wilder and Mr. Scott and Ms. Wilder and Mr. Scott um as described it's it's fairly straightforward. It's a seven unit building with a parking lot right at the Pomeroy West Street intersection. The children's the daycare center wants to expand three additional units and have the play area in behind the building expand the length of the building to the to the west end to the to the I assume unit one um and we saw the gates we saw the we discussed with the applicant the concern raised by the fire department and that seems to be addressed by the way in which the gates are able to move both directions and that looks like they're going to level off the area. There's a hill towards getting moving toward towards the western end of the street and they'll address that and with whatever they need to with the fill I assume um but and that's about it but there's no there were no apparent issues on the front end of the building this is concentrated on the back end the building as I understand thank you. Thank you David um at this time I see Judy's hand up uh Judy would you like to speak and add something to the applicant's uh presentation I do see your hand up but I don't know if you're actually want to speak all right her hand is down so maybe she's all set um okay so at this point I'm going to take question up Judy's hands back up would you like to speak Ms Wilder can we unmute her Pam? I'm I'm trying. There's no reason I can't. It doesn't seem to be. Oh is that better? Yes. Welcome Judy. Yay. Yay. Okay I hate computers guys um what Dwight said is perfect. Welcome. Thank you. What Dwight said is perfect I don't have anything to add unless you have any questions. Wonderful at this point then we will move to the board um and any questions they have I'm watching for raised hands um does anyone have any questions that the board would like to ask the applicants or Ms Bestrup um about this project I see no hands at this time um I can move to public comment I will move to attendees um I do see two hands up Pam do you have any idea who those two hands are or should I we just bring them online? I think we should just go ahead and give them the opportunity um and just remind them to say who they are okay so well uh how about the uh great so uh nine six three nine could you please uh announce yourself with your name and address? My name is Craig Cody I live at 500 West Street and I am the uh president of the Courtyard Communion Association. And that is to the south just south of the um this site? That's correct. Okay welcome do you have a question or concern? No just a comment in terms of um Dwight and I have had a very amicable relationship over the past three or four years and uh we have no opposition to the expansion and I know that um if I had any concerns that I could uh directly address them with Dwight um I'm pleased to hear that there'll be the leveling off part of it because that will actually help expedite the drainage great so it's just more more to um chime in and advocate for Dwight and just thank him for being a good budding neighbor. Wonderful to hear and thank you for making the effort um to come to our meeting and tell us that. No problem thanks Dwight. Thank you Craig. Appreciate it. Oh at this time we'll move to uh Pam you've got it's a seven one six three number uh I believe you're almost there I can still see uh. I got it unmuted. Okay you should be able to speak now welcome uh please announce yourself and give your street address. Yes hi my name is Tony Wenceski I'm the engineer on the project working with Dwight Allen and Judy I work for FCE Associates in Brattleboro Vermont and just on the line in case there are any technical issues that needed to be answered but my client Dwight did a very good job so thank you. Good to know that you're here thank you for coming so uh I see no other hands in attendees I will go back to panelists I see Janet McGowan's hand up I call on Janet. Hi um I just have a few questions um um on the you're asking for a waiver of the lighting plan and I noticed on the development application report that you have exterior lighting um from dusk to 2 a.m. Is that in is that lighting in the front parking lot or behind the building or both? It's both and then the follow-up question is why why are the lights on so late is that seems unusual to me but just cute um it's that's been something that was a design a way that we wanted to do it ever since we constructed the building and it hasn't seemed to be a problem we we have that back kind of area back alleyway that goes down the building we wanted that to be lit at least until 2 a.m. Okay um another question I had was um are you on your site plan it says that the new play area will be grass surface is that going to be grass or is that going to be converted to sand like the rest of the playground? It should be sand um it's going to follow the original design is there existing. Okay and then my last question is about how cars come in and out of a lot for a drop off like do they're in the front of the building um right at the Pomeroy it's the first turn in from prominent from on Pomeroy Lane from the intersection so like every kid gets dropped off like in front of the building and then they pull out that that's correct okay those are my questions thanks okay thank you um I see I'm going to call on Judy you have your hand up would you like to say something the question got answered I'm all set wonderful Chris Bestrup I see your hand is up I just wanted to point out that there is a development application report for those of you who didn't have a chance to read it I sent it out about five o'clock this evening but I think that Janet um did ask some of the questions that I suggested so that's all I had to say okay um I will ask again to the board anyone else have any questions on this I don't see any oh Doug Marshall I call on Doug yeah I guess I'm asking a question I should have asked when you wanted uh or you asked for any disclosures I think I do want to just state for the record that through my professional work at UMass I know uh Alan and Dwight uh from some of the interactions we've had with them uh as a university thank you thanks Doug um um so Chris you have your hand up do you have something to say or should I know okay so I see no hands up and um if there's no David I see David's hand so is this where we I make a motion to close the public hearing and to vote on the application we could do that at this time so I'd like to close the poll I'd like to move to close the public hearing and to approve the uh site plan review application for all of that learning and do I see a second hand to second that motion I second that okay I hear Michael so it's been second um are there any other final comments or questions uh we have a motion on the table um David your hand is up if you have a question and I also then recognize Chris okay I'm moving to Chris so I just wanted to suggest that you make reference to the criteria um that you find that the uh application meets all of the relevant criteria of section 11.24 of the Zoning Bylaw. I believe that is that in the development application here? It is not it's just a standard thing we usually go through all of the criteria but this is such a small project that um sometimes with small projects you just make that blanket statement about that this project meets all of the relevant criteria of the site plan review criteria list. Then please include that and I just the only conditions or what findings that I remember from the site visit was that they have air conditioning units in the back of the building that the ones that have been impacted so far they put coverings on and there's like three more units for this one through three that would need to be covered and I do believe a fire department weighed in on this and there was two new gates that need to be put in that need to swing outward but I do believe the applicant said that they'll be similar to the gates that exist and they swing in and out. Anything else anybody? I don't see any hands so if we're ready we could take a vote at this time. I can do a roll call so first uh I will call on Michael Burtwistle. Approve. Someone's getting a call. Michael did I hear from you? I approve. I'm trying to can you hear me? Now I can hear you. I heard approve. Thank you. Maria? Approve. Jack? Approve. David? Approve. Doug? Approve. Janet? Approve. And I also approve. Unanimous seven. Thank you so much. Good luck um all about learning. Thank you very much everybody. Thank you. Have a great night. Thanks. Good night. Thank you. All right so uh just give me one moment here to get organized. It just means throw things on the floor. Okay so we will move to the next site plan review uh which was uh on our agenda for 645 it is now seven o'clock and in accordance with provisions MGL chapter 40a this public meeting has been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and is being held for the purpose of providing the opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding SPR 2020-10 the Common School 521 South Pleasant Street request site plan approval to repave the existing driveway and pave and reconfigure the existing gravel parking and turnaround drop-off area including the emergency drive walkways and other site improvements map 17a-78 our end zoning district first off I'm watching for hands do we have any board member disclosures and I see no hands so I will move to the applicant's presentation uh just Pam I do believe I saw yeah Mike Michael yeah is does he need to be he should be over in the panelists now ready to go there you are Michael hello Michael can the board hear me we can but please fully introduce yourself and let the public know who you are and who you represent all right um excuse me um my name is Michael Lou I'm with the Berkshire design group uh we are landscape architects and civil engineers um and we have um worked with the common school in the past on some smaller projects um with us tonight should be Kevin Campbell is I don't know if Kevin's on the line or on video I can move him over um his hand is up so yes he is here okay um I'm going to move him to panelists is there anyone else I can't seem to I need to decrease um the screen here on my home computer so I can access my thumb drive and I can't seem to alter the screen like I have some slides okay we can okay great um I I do have another graphic to show um at the end but we can do look at maybe sheet l one yeah that one okay start um I also have a nice color rendering that I was going to use um I should have sent that over to you um but I could I can oh I know if you can pull them up on your screen you can share your screen okay if you prefer and it should give you the option what to select right whoops oh that looks good well that is just an area okay well why don't I start with that and see if I can jump to the color rendering so this is an aerial view of the site um we had a site meeting I think most or the majority of the planning board members were present um the other day but if you uh look at the site it doesn't this doesn't show the property lines but the main parcel for the common school looks something like a big um big dipper with the small end being here at the entry road at south pleasant street the driveway is currently paved from south pleasant street to about the start of this gravel turnaround um the roadway or driveway is becoming cracked and there's several potholes and it's in need of some repair um the gravel turnaround here has always been somewhat of a problem in that you know it's it needs routine maintenance um cars are driving on it there's no designated spaces to park so you know there's there's no um there sometimes it's unclear if people you know are gonna they pull in they might take up two spaces when they really should only be taking up one etc etc the handicapped parking is not clearly demarcated with striping right here closest to the buildings um and then there's an issue of people um bringing dust into the buildings that has been a continuous problem you know over the years so this project proposes to repave the driveway in its present width pave um the turnaround and parking spaces which are located on the east and south side of the turnaround with a handicap here at the southwest end of the turnaround additionally we're proposing to pave a emergency access drive which you can see is kind of existing as an existing conditions located in this area in the worn worn grass and there's a bunch of old tree stumps in this area we showed the emergency drive being paved in this area with a small um a widened area for the dumpster um as you may know currently when you enter the site the dumpsters are located right here at the corner at the end of the paved area right before you get into into the turnaround and you know that's visually unsightly it's not a very welcoming feature into the uh into the property um and that moving the dumpsters from here to this location will also help the maintenance staff bring the uh refuse recyclables and litter and what have you you know to that location from the buildings rather than having to walk out and you know all the way across the gravel drive to this location um so it's a convenience and also it would improve the safety of of that function um I want to get to the paving as you can see from the area of the the gravel is kind of has no real defined limit it does move around so the paving will help keep that um the impervious area well defined um the proposed paving will not go beyond the existing limits of where the gravel is now and in the center the green space will be increased um and in the center our engineers had to have designed a rain garden feature um so that basically the turnaround the new paving of the turnaround will all be pitched inward to the rain garden so runoff will be uh flowing into the rain garden where it can infiltrate and be treated and there is an existing catch basin which is currently in the gravel but will now be within the green space of the rain garden and that will function as an overflow um from foot after you know the water has been treated and if it gets up to a level I believe it's the depth of the rain garden is about eight and a half inches so once it reaches excuse me that elevation any overflow will enter the catch basin and it basically exits to the south here at the south side of this fenced in garden area um we have presented the plans to the conservation commission last week um and we talked about the runoff and stormwater treatment and they they have approved of the project already um and then the one other thing I wanted to mention is that um we didn't I didn't talk about this at the site walk but we are also proposing to pave this walkway which comes up from the parking area into the courtyard of the school and this um gravel walk now so right now this is gravel this is gravel and this walkway that runs down back to the um turnaround is gravel we're proposing to pave this uh from the parking lot basically from the um end of the handicap spaces up into the courtyard and into the buildings in a flush condition so that we have um improved and maintained handicap accessibility so obviously right now it's gravel so again they're doing the maintenance on it with more stone dust and gravel and you know having to do that continually um you know it costs a lot of money over the years as well as all the time put in from a maintenance point of view um in the application we are asking for a waiver from sign plan um lighting plan and the traffic impact report nothing is changing here with respect to the student or faculty population so the traffic is will be remain remain as it is currently there's no change proposed to the lighting there are lights along the west side of this existing parking lot which is on a separate parcel and then there's um additionally I think there's five lights that run along this sidewalk which is under the trees but parallel to the driveway and into um um this area so the lighting has functioned well through you know for the so many years there's no change to that and then there's no change to the signage on the property either um we will be adding handicap um plaques at the parking spaces and likely they'll they'll um replace the existing worn out wood in like one way signs I believe once you enter this turnaround area there's a there's a sign with an arrow that points you know one way to the to the right to keep you moving in uh counterclockwise flow um but other than that um I'm not sure if I have anything else to present to you tonight Kevin I don't know if you wanted to say anything um I know that we had um an issue come up with the lot coverage uh it was a restriction on this parcel which differs from the zoning um and um I don't do I I can pause now if you want to cover can you I'm sorry excuse me Pam can you unmute um Kevin can't Kevin Campbell I um I'm here great I unmuted myself can you hear me okay yes we can um Mike I I think you should feel free to to speak to um the issue of of the lot coverage and the proposed you know resolution okay I forgot to jump to this color plan but this maybe depicts um the limits of paving etc a little bit more clearly um so we found out late in the game that there is a restriction on the main parcel for the common school which is shown in this red line um but actually for the exact parcel that the restriction applies to it um it only applies to this 50 foot width of the driveway this other 50 foot width was added to the main parcel um when the common school sold off this uh what we call the McKenna parcel McKenna's were the previous owners but they retained a 50 foot strip so that they could maintain this barn um but the restriction in the deed is clearly describes this um you know big dipper shaped parcel without this extra 50 foot strip so in looking at um that main parcel the coverage requirement or limit was 25 percent by zoning in this district it's 30 percent so we had prepared this plan and we thought we were doing a great job by keeping the coverage to um it's up in the table I can't quite read about 26.7 yeah 26.7 percent um on the entire parcel shown in red um I went back and looked at what it would take to get the main parcel here in compliance with the 25 percent and basically came up with um the the number of 5089 square feet that we need to reduce in pavement which is substantial it's a very significant amount um and I'm going to jump to another plan here that you haven't seen yet um so the areas highlighted in purple um we are proposing to change those to permeable paving and I can show you some images but basically it's a open concrete block that's set on crushed stone so it has good drainage it can support vehicle weight and then the voids are filled with um topsoil and seeded so you get a 50 percent of of the area being green um and I can show you pictures of that and that doesn't quite get us up to the 5089 square feet but basically we are proposing that the parking spaces turn into permeable paving but not the handicapped spaces here and then this section of um emergency drive turn into permeable paving and then additionally we needed another 1,040 square feet or so which is represented by this green strip currently this strip that was paved and there's like I think there's six um parallel parking spaces um we would have to basically eliminate that amount of paving and turn it back into a green strip um it's hard to tell here but this this little dotted area is the paved driveway and then the space to the north of that is is a grass strip and then to the north of the grass strip is the paved sidewalk that continues all the way into this area so we would return that portion to grass um and that would get us to 24.9 percent coverage on the main parcel that's described in the deed so I know that um we didn't have a chance to talk about this beforehand because our site visit was only two days ago or whatever but um we're we're asking that the board entertain the idea of using the permeable pavers to count as essentially green space um if if if that's acceptable this plan would work if it isn't acceptable then um I'm not sure it would be worth doing any of this if they had to eliminate all the parking for instance because the whole point of this is trying to organize some of the parking up near the school buildings because even though they have this lot it's it's not really used on a daily basis for parents to park and walk their kids all the way into the building for instance and that's what essentially the what they would have to do um to make it work if there wasn't any parking either that or people would be all jammed up you know in here in a queue and it would be you know complete chaos with people trying to park and run into the building versus people that just want to pull in pick up their kids or drop off their kids and pull out etc so there's just too much conflict going on in there um unfortunately this site suffers from the fact that it has a very long entry road that you know takes up a lot of the necessary lot coverage um and they're already I should note that in an existing condition this site the main parcel is already at I believe it was 29.1 or .2 percent coverage so right as it stands right now it's already over that 25 percent limit so for whatever reason that was forgotten about over the years and things happen incrementally and we're at the point now where you know we're at 29 percent coverage um so it's it's difficult to go back um but this is a way to do it and still be able to make these improvements for the school yeah thank you Michael um at this time I see chris bestrup has her hand up so I'm going to call on her she might have something to add from the town's perspective chris are you there yeah I just want to say a couple of things um that the town the zoning bylaw limits the coverage to less than 30 percent and it's the deed restriction that limits the coverage to less than 25 percent so really the conservation commission and the town as a whole is you know has interest in meeting the requirements of the deed restriction the planning board would be potentially more focused on the zoning bylaw but we do have Dave Zomek here in the wings he's one of the attendees and he's the director of conservation and development and I've spoken with him about this issue and I think he would like to make a comment I'm looking for him I'm I'm promoting oh I say he's an attendees okay he should be over there yes welcome David hello hi hello oh nice can you hear me yes we can hear you great um well I caught most of uh Mike Lou's presentation yes I think I think chris's previous comment captured uh an important distinction between the zoning requirements and the requirements of the deed restriction and I think the deed restriction really falls the the enforcement and and follow up to the deed restriction it it really runs to the town and more to I think the conservation commission if you will um so I appreciate that uh Kevin and Mike uh are now aware of it it has some it has been something that has come up through the year so um I think you know there may be some institutional memory you know at the common pool that may be haven't been lost over time but it it has been a prominent feature of the site for many many years um I guess I appreciate where Mike is going with this I had one question and that is with the with the emergency fire access um I think if I'm looking at the that's to the north of the building in purple that's currently not paved it is currently um beat up grass right lack of grass um so I'm just curious how how are you seeing that as contributing with permeable paving right now it's right now it's not contributing to the common school being over the 25 percent so right does that help you get the percentage down yes it would it would definitely help reduce the percentage by a few um maybe even one percent I don't know or maybe even 1.1 percent um but I don't think we it would um I don't know how close it would be to that 25 um actually it's it's currently permeable so I'm not following yeah if if if we were to leave it alone um I could take a look at the numbers again I know after talking with Michael Roy the fire safety officer that they would like to have some type of emergency access along the north side of the building that's better than what is there now um no I understand if I could through the chair um okay I understand that my question is more I don't understand how that helps it's currently permeable so if it's currently permeable I understand the fire department would like to see that access and I'm not I'm not disputing that but how does that help you get the percentage down from 29 point something down to 24.9 Mike yeah oh Mike go ahead Mike I just I mean I'm sure you're hearing this but at the at the end of the NOI hearing is when Dave you know brought this to our attention because you had noted the 26.7 percent uh you know calculation of coverage and and in in light of that it was a reduction okay and so I think what what Dave is trying to grapple with and I'd like you to explain is that is that the plan itself absent your pervious alterations here includes a paved emergency access route which which which had pushed which pushed the um coverage up right and now you're removing that right because in and what the what this paving plan does in defining the pavement we're actually taking away impervious area from the turnaround area and we were able to provide an emergency access drive in this configuration and now we're looking at that condition and peeling it back to 25 percent or less okay we're taking it back to so so yeah it in by defining the paving and and increasing the green space in the center of the turnaround and also on the perimeter or periphery edges of that gravel mess we were able to save enough on the impervious area to you know allow for this much of a emergency paved emergency drive so that that that was a benefit also another benefit of doing the paving project was we could get closer to satisfying you know the fire department's desires to have a you know access on the north side there i see just to be clear all the area in purple only counts as 50 coverage when you're doing your calculation well that's what we need to figure out with you or you know maybe conservation on is how we count this um if we have to if we have to look at the exact um configuration of the block and open space void versus solid ratio that i haven't done i'm counting the the entire area shown in purple as being um permeable pavers me right and that's what pushed the number down to 24.9 along with the new green strip that runs along the north well i would david do you have any more questions or no i guess i guess i would end by saying and i would defer to you christine um it seems to me that that the the lot coverage issue is is related but somewhat separate and i wonder if that's something that uh the applicant should work through with the town and and or the conservation commission um in a parallel discussion i'm not sure um and i would look to you or or christine breast drop on that but it seems to me that that that deed restriction is uh is to the town so the town has the obligation to make sure that that is adhered to um so i i'm just curious how the planning board sees that well how does uh chris how does the planning board see that if the zoning um restriction is 30 percent i mean all of this is below that um is this critical to our decision about the deed so my hand is up and i'm gonna speak um i would say that if the plan is what what you want to come to is you want to approve a plan that's going to be built and if there's going to be a conversation um outside of the planning board meeting with conservation commission or staff that's going to change this plan then i think you would want to wait until uh the final plan has been developed before you approve a plan so i would recommend that you continue the public hearing to date certain and then have mike and kevin work this out with dave zomek and the conservation commission and then come back to you with a plan that's satisfactory to the concom and you know i would say i would pretty much guarantee then it would be satisfactory to the planning board with regard to lot coverage that seems um sensible and i agree with that um so what i would do this evening is would finish some of this i'll do the site visit report and i will take if the board does have some questions at this time so that the applicants can go off and finalize this and then it can come back to us so um thank you so far you all and i will at this point move to the site visit report which i believe jack was going to report on yes so uh number of us met uh same group that was um at the all about learning uh visit and we uh congregated near where the proposed rain garden is um and you know discuss the project um the you know there is a catch basin there right now that uh adjacent to where the rate garden um is and uh so that would be removed and you know that rain garden would allow infiltration but within that central area that the depression area there um we just talked about um how the pavement right now is a same kind of a gravel pack um you know uh as it moves beyond where the straight driveway is coming up from from uh south pleasant and um and we talked about permeable pavers there and i think it's a great i think what might came up here since since the time we were there i that looks really good um but the there is you know we were asking you know why this or why that but i think the common school is it okay to talk about why we're you know paving versus trying to do something like permeable pay or the permeable pavers everywhere is because i think there's a there's a there's a cost really huge cost savings for the common school so that you know that that makes complete sense for for a school of this nature so and then we cast our eyes on that you know emergency area that the turnout which is i think there's a big stump right there so i don't think it's ever been functional but that stump will be removed you talk about lower the grade to improve access to the rear of the building but again here proposed you have the permeable pavers and that that that's you know definitely intriguing um i think that's about it yeah thanks the only thing i'm going to add is about the dumpsters that i think it would be we noted that there they're at the corner of the long driver when it um hangs left it all sits where there's now going to be a parking spot um and they're very visible and um like i think the applicant said earlier they're far from the door so moving that all over to that um emergency driveway would be practical and aesthetically pleasing um at this point i'll take well i'm going to call on chris and then uh raise your hand board members if you have any questions at this time you want to ask and then we can finish this up chris so i just wanted to note that i think um the catch basin is actually going to stay there it's not going to be removed but it will be um placed within the island and it will be able to it'll be raised up a bit above the bottom of the rain garden and it will be able to catch overflow drainage um in the rain garden so it's it's really going to stay in its place it's just that the paving is going to move away from it and rain garden is going to be created around it yeah it will actually function better and i think i remember at the site visit um the applicants talking about how the school was actually excited to have this rain garden and it was actually going to be an educational point right on site that um would help be a real world example of um surface water drainage so uh at this time i only see janet mcgowen's hand up so i will call on janet for a question hi um thank you i have a few questions i do want to say at the outset that i really like the idea of the rain garden and especially involving the kids in that that seemed like a great improvement um i also in support um having the planning board helping make decisions that preserve the conservation restriction i think it's very important for the town um and this to me at my first look um maybe not so educated look um looks like a good solution to what looks like an accidental violation of the conservation restriction um the questions i have one for the conservation commission is does the conservation commission agree with the idea of um creating counting um 50 of the permeable pavers as green space does that make sense to them do they accept that i think that's a good idea um questions for the applicants i have um i know at the site visit mr lou had said that um you know even though the road the roadway me at the roadway the turnaround is gravel that's considered permeable and i was wondering is if all kinds of if all types of gravel roads are considered impermeable um and then does the fire department need a impermeable road you know could that could could they accept either soil or maybe a heavier gravel that lets more water in so those are just um that questions i'd love to have answered now thank you um so in the town of amherst um this type of pavement gravel paving is considered impervious so it's it's to be counted against the lot coverage or toward you know toward the lot coverage which i really want to look at it so um that's what we've always had to do with you know on on all the projects in amherst um the with respect to the fire lane i i think i i've spoken with michael roy i think the fire department's willing to help to find ways of creating something that's more accessible than what is there now part of the problem is the steep slope as you you recall once you get you know they actually say they they can't get their trucks up that little incline so we're proposing to take the grade down and flatten that out a little bit so it'll be easier um but when it comes to a surface they need a stable surface that will support the weight of a fire truck the heaviest fire apparatus in town um i don't know if what's out there now complies i i doubt it does even though it's like you know much of it is devoid of grass it's a lot of stones and dirt and you know patches of grass or whatever you know i mean how often does a fire truck need to is a fire truck going to pull up there i can't say you know but in the situation that a fire truck needs to get access closer to the building they need a stable surface and one that's going to support the fire truck so their preference is to have something hard um that's designed specifically for you know the weight of the vehicle we can achieve that with the with the concrete permeable paver system on a good crushed stone base um which serves two functions to support the the top concrete pavers as well as provide drainage or infiltration capacity through the stone um so that's i think that's a a win-win so so to speak using this type of system there um plus the fact that you're you know you're not going to have a black top surface or or concrete or or whatever or anything it's going to be it's going to have the appearance of being mostly green if the grass grows well if it's taken care of right so actually that's you know that's i guess the third benefit is visually it appears to be green i agree with the stabilization uh those ladder trucks when they move out the stabilizers they need a solid surface to you know push off of to so um yeah so you'll continue to work with the fire department and the town they understand the nature of this site and it's it's a difficult thing to you know achieve i mean ultimately i think what the fire code almost makes you do is provide a loop around these buildings and that's that's impossible so the fire department's willing to uh work with the school to come up with a solution that they you know at least they can get closer to complying with the code that that sounds great um all right so before we pick a date to continue this too i do see one more hand i call on dug yeah i just wanted to say i don't have the deed restriction that was distributed in front of me but my memory was that 75 percent of the site had to be capable of supporting plant growth and i would not interpret the permeable pavers with a gravel subbase as meeting that uh condition so but i realized that'll be up to others thank you great um so uh this is sort of for mr um lou and mr cambell and chris first for our applicants how long do you need to finish out all of whatever new plans or um and then does this have to go to the conservation commission so when would we see this again as a planning board when should we continue this too are you asking me or well i i guess for i i guess on there and michael how long do you need to and does and then to chris it's do they have to go to the conservation commission first and then come back to us and how long do you think that'll i think if we can have um some sort of dialogue with dave zomek about and maybe he can act as the liaison to the commission i'm logistically i'm not sure how this will work because the conservation commission's already reviewed the project and approved it you know do we have to go back and and do another formal um hearing with them or can we find um if this is if we're headed in the right direction you know can we find out and have further dialogue about how much it's going to take or if you know for instance if we have if we can only count 50 of this area then i mean i've talked to mr uh to kevin about you know we talked about other areas where there could be in uh permeable paving for instance at the entry drive a portion of that it might be a nice entry and also some type of traffic calming to kind of make people slow down if you will because it's a different it's a it's it's going to be a bumpier ride you know across that type of um uh surface than than it is asphalt so that could visually look nice as well as serve the function of some safety um but if that were the if for instance if you're only allowing 50 percent of it to be counted as um open and able to support vegetation then we would have to add this permeable paving um in other areas okay so i think we need a couple days to try to work out an understanding of you know what's acceptable and then for us to figure out how many but i can see that we might be able to come back to the next planning board hearing if there's time on that agenda so chris if um they sound on on this and very reasonable and they can get this done quickly so dialogue needs to happen when do we think this would come back uh the 17th or the first um it could come back on the 17th i think you have a public hearing on the 17th about a voting requirement um there's one other thing that i think we put on the 17th but it's not springing to mind right now and i don't have my schedule with me um but if if the applicant needs to go back to the concom and say you know concom do you think this is a big change do you like but what you're seeing here you know then it'll take a little bit longer so you do have a meeting on um july 1st um the amherst media project is coming in on july 1st but you might be able to sneak this in um you know if it's going to take 15 or 20 minutes to approve it before that um so and then you have another meeting on july 15th so i guess those are the choices july 17th which seems very soon if they have to go to the conservation commission maybe you could ask mr zomek when the next conservation that's i was going to say is do they have to go back to the conservation commission there seems to be um confusion on that point david's going to stand up yeah david yeah i'm just looking at the calendar um um so we have a meeting on the 10th i'd like to confer i have a i have a another scheduled meeting with our town council tomorrow on another matter and i'd like to just run this by her i'm not sure the commission needs to weigh in this might merely be the town of amherst um so um i think the 17th is is possible but um the first might be more realistic okay if that's okay with the applicant i i think what i've heard is very positive and i and i think um working with kevin and working with um with mike i i think we can work through this and come back to you with a with a plan that that meets uh all of the requirements so i'm optimistic um but i just like a little time i i feel a little bit rushed to promise it on the 17th okay so let's go with the first let's continue this to july 1st um christ time yeah we have is there any way you put that first could you meet at six o'clock on july 1st would that be possible you're asking the planning board members if we can have a meeting on the first on the first and six p.m how about this yeah can i see a show of hands of anyone who cannot do six o'clock on july 1st for an early 30 minutes start earlier for planning board i don't see any hands so everyone it appears jack gem sick has his hand up where his physical hand oh physical jack um well if everyone else can be there yeah i think we have enough and then jack i know you have a meeting before um when you're done with that if you could just join us if we start 30 minutes earlier does it mean that we'll end 30 minutes earlier no yeah i can make i can i possibly can make six but just um i do another meeting beforehand but i'm aware of that yes so christ just is it because we've already set a time for something why are we um shuffling we haven't advertised it yet no we haven't that's well we haven't advertised it yet so we could go with 630 yes that would be fine or 635 on 635 635 on july 1st for this on july 1st and then we'll make the other meeting um we'll probably put that on seven sounds good one o'clock and then we can get rid of some other stuff hopefully too all right so everyone i think has their next next steps and uh to our applicants thank you for coming and um we need a motion right motion and a vote motion and yes so if there's if i see a hand i'll call on someone for a motion thanking me applicants we'll move this i assume mr lu that this is whoa good to um good for july 1st will be all right for you and mr cambell yeah it is okay with me kevin me too right all right all right so we'll see you then at 635 on july 1st and let me see if there's a do i have a hand i still need someone to oh i see dug go go for it dug i'll move to continue to july 1st at 635 i need a second i see jack thank you very much um and this i'm just gonna say all in favor you you can just raise your hand oh do i again okay here we go michael it's hard to say michael michael he's muted oh dear okay no he's michael i approve okay uh maria prove jack prove david approve dug approve janet janet approve sorry and myself so unanimous off until july 1st thank you very much thank you everyone for coming and uh we look forward to seeing this coming back in a final form thanks so much thank you for hearing us great all right so it is wow 746 so we're almost exactly right on time so at this point we're doing something historic here we are going to have our first joint meeting with crc and i want to welcome the chair of the crc i believe uh uh is she here mandy joe if you want to recognize yourself i am here welcome nice to see you so um if you could let me know who is here from your crc committee so i will call our community resources committee meeting to order at 747 p.m because we have a quorum um it is virtual governor's orders uh suspending the provisions of open meeting law and at this time i'm going to recognize all of our committee members so that we can test their audio and you can see who our committee members are so i am mandy joe hannicky i am the chair of the community resources committee i thank you guys for bringing us in and and having this joint meeting sarah swartz we saw her earlier i'm present i'm steve schreiber president hi evan ross i'm here and shallony ball melton hmm she she's stuck in by him she i'm gonna get back into the attendees hold on okay yeah oh right i'm putting her back in there there she go okay she's she's there here now shallony if you are connected please say hi hi okay welcome thank you for having us so do you want me to just start in christine sure um at this point um so we're in a joint hearing both planning board crc and uh this is to just discuss zoning bylaws how to handle it process and i want to make note that we have a flow chart um which i don't know do pam could we put that up can you see it this flow chart and if we put that up as a visual others can see what we're looking at and then at that point Mandy joe please feel free to tell us about it wait a minute can you see it no i see you up it looks wonderful fab fab great job so this flow chart uh to give a little introduction is sort of is an attempt to sort of set forth how zoning bylaws amendments or revisions or even new bylaws how they might flow through both the planning board and the town council and particularly the community resource committee um we were asked to do something like this by the town council and we were asked to work with the planning board so we are here to hopefully have a conversation about thoughts on what this looks like um and and anything that might need changed or desire to be changed this is slightly different from i believe a prior flow chart that the planning board has seen the main difference um besides some fixes of clerical issues is the first two boxes i believe the planning board last saw a flow chart that did not have those boxes but instead had a small box at the very bottom that said things will happen before the start of this flow chart and we hope to collaborate during those things um and so the attempt here has been to sort of indicate what those things might be and how that might look um this flow chart is meant to be able to work for almost any situation that a zoning amendment might be presented to the council um we recognize that many of them will start with planning staff or planning board but given what our charter says and our role as counselors and legislators we also recognize that some of our our counselors may actually propose a zoning bylaw amendment or new one on their own directly to the council um or we may actually get a petition article from residents in town and that would come directly to the council and so those when it starts there they would start in box three the third blue box um but we're trying to accommodate the bulk of what we perceive to be the bulk of zoning bylaw amendments which would come from staff or planning board um and how that might look and so what this attempts to do beyond that is to sort of set forth and include all of the required state law steps and charter steps in this flow chart in hopes so that a visual gives people an idea of what it may look like as things go through the system and so it requires you know both in the in this new council manager form of government both the planning board and the town council are required to hold public hearings town state law is allowed to designate the holding of that public hearing to a subcommittee and it has designated the holding of that public hearing to the community resources committee at the same time the council asked that we as community resources committee work as much as possible with the planning board to hold those hearings jointly um which is why there is that joint box down at the bottom um and then there are timelines as you told a hearing there are subsequent timelines for when after we've held the hearing on the community resources side how long it can be until the council actually votes on the proposal so that's all in the bottom half but I do want to talk about the top two boxes um because those are the ones that you haven't seen yet and this starts with um it the first one is that the council would hear a presentation on potential bylaw revisions from the planning staff this came as a recommendation from staff but also um as a result of hearing that from staff that the planning board um was looking for some sort of um guidance from the council as to what potential zoning amendments they may want to see that the council may want to see and so in talking through this or options this was an option that that came up and that I've presented here in this this flow chart of if the planning board is looking for guidance the best way to get that guidance is to get it directly from the council by maybe having a presentation as to what might the planning staff be looking at um what um when councils counselors were elected what their their platforms might have been what they wanted to focus on and things like that and then but but that presentation wouldn't have specifics so you know to to give examples if we're looking at um you know something about say downtown zoning it wouldn't have specifics on what you know one thing that's been mentioned in council a lot is setbacks on sidewalks or like size of sidewalks and stuff it wouldn't have specific proposals it would be do you want us to be working on that type of thing or do you want us to be working on inclusionary zoning or the sign by law or form based zoning or the rezoning of of various parts of town um or or fixing zoning in somewhere else it would be that general high level conversation that then the council could say here's the five or six things or three or four things that we'd like most to see come back to us first um so that's where the second box is on prioritization of referrals to work on the specific drafts that's that's when council might say this is what we'd like to work on that what what we'd like to see and then it would go back to staff back to planning board uh CRC might see a couple of drafts in the middle of that this is where it's not really fully set and then when it's when it's a better draft when it's ready to sort of go prime time as some people would say then it would come back for that formal referral to hold those hearings um and start that sort of formal process timeline that state law sets forth on all those requirements for hearings and timelines and getting recommendations and all of that um so I think I'll stop there um we're really looking for comments you know we're we're hoping to be able to present this to the council in approximately two weeks um as something that planning board hopefully if it's well received that planning board and CRC is is sort of sort of above um I will open it up to questions from the board I also want to ask chris bestrup if she has any comments on this um she plays an integral part of this is the planning department uh director and how does this impact her resources and um obviously it affects a lot of what they're working on chris are you there yes I'm here so um I think you know there's enough flexibility in the first two boxes to um be able to work with that well um I guess the one comment I would make is the first line town council here's presentation I've been head till bylaw revisions from planning staff and I'm thinking you know bylaw revisions may come from council members or other sources so is this are the first two boxes only related to things that the planning department or the planning board is uh seeing as initiatives and then anything that is other than that would come in in the third box is that like mandy joe an example is this article 14 the temporary bylaw who did that like what do we credit how did that come into these boxes and who did it come from or start it I guess it came from town staff it came from yeah rob mora and myself you know the idea was robs and then rob and I drafted it um so so maybe we should add on from just planning staff that it could be other staff director level staff how about staff of the conservation and development department or oh that's bigger right does that make sense mandy yeah that's a good point chris any other issues you say at this time chris with this nope okay so at this time I'll um open it up to planning board members if they have questions to ask um the CRC or specifically mandy joe uh Doug I recognize you the CRC committee to come again and but my committee too if they have questions we haven't okay so I'm watching all hands so I'll also watch for CRC and I'll take you um in order as I see you so right now I see Doug and then Janet and then michael burt whistle so Doug yeah I was just gonna say that at least based on the way mandy introduced the diagram I thought that submissions of zoning changes that came in by submission or by petition or via a town counselor would arrive at box three and so uh you know boxes one and two are in fact only planning board related uh and I thought it would clarify the diagram if there were uh an arrow coming in from the side next to box three that said something like you know submissions via petition or town counselors and and then went in an arrow to box three thank you does that make sense mandy joe yes and that's a fantastic idea great thank you all right I recognize it will be Janet and then I see michael and I see shell and I so Janet are you there I'm there thank you um thank you very much I'm glad to see this meeting taking place I know the CRC has been discussing this for a long time I have some questions for um uh the planning board members about past practice um and and also Steve Schreiber um on past practice on the timing of the public hearings basically the question is I have two questions and let me ask the first one please um when in the revision process did the planning board hold public hearings did the planning board hold the public hearing just before they sent a zoning bylaw revision to the select board in town meeting or did they send do they have a public hearing earlier in that process and then I have a second question um Chris do you want to answer that how it worked with town meeting sure um it it really I think town meeting um was less constrained with regard to timing of when public hearings were held the planning board would usually hold public hearings whenever they were able to um and the formal um method of having a zoning amendment arrive at the select board and then have the select board refer it to the planning board didn't usually happen unless it was a petition article or something that was being proposed by someone other than the planning board so it was usually the planning board decided that they wanted to work on something they worked on it they scheduled a public hearing they made a recommendation um to town meeting and it was you know within well if town meeting happened in November the planning board wouldn't really hold public hearings until September so it was probably you know as much as two months before um town meeting met that the planning board would hold a public hearing and then my my second question is what was the purpose of the public hearing was it listening sessions to get ideas from the public their reactions then robot make revisions based on what they were hearing or was it just you know checking the box we need to hold a public hearing like presenting the the revision listening to comments and then saying okay we've held their public hearing was it more of an interactive pod process with the public yeah go ahead chris yeah it was an interactive process we often had members of the public we always had members of the public at our public hearings and um in fact the zoning amendment could be amended until it arrived um a warrant and you know zoning amendments were constantly amended they it would be presented to the public at a public hearing the planning board would hear what the public had to say staff would go back and tweak it but then all all the way along the line the planning board would meet again the next week and say oh we want to change this or that so it was really a more fluid you know flexible method um and sometimes even things changed you know the night before they got to town meeting or the night of town meeting so they were they were constantly um you know looking at things and changing them i that's my that's my experience okay i also just want to add one of the things i like about this flowchart is it gets the key players involved earlier so there's not surprises as much and the people who are actually voting on this in the end are seeing it as it develops um a lot of what chris is talking about was is it got close to town meeting um and it it it was changing up until the very end which isn't always the best um way to do it as a moving target and this i think flows a little bit better to get people's input all along um janet do you have more questions not not now thank you okay great um i saw steve schreiber trying to wave his physical hand oh physical hand i'm like i don't yeah you guys don't do physical hands steve you like to add a comment do you have some historical no but uh it brings back great memories but um so the zoning articles were the only articles i went to town meeting that i believe were statutorily required to have a public hearing you know by you know by that name which is a you know kind of the highest level of public comment so i uh the fact that it could be changed after the fact in fact on the floor of the town meeting to me always was a kind of a conceptual problem that in other words you've had this public hearing but then it can be changed quite a bit you know along the way but there doesn't need to be another public hearing there never needed to be there only used to be one public hearing as i understand it so it never was completely clear at what point has it become a different animal you know that it's changed so much that it needs to be stopped in republic hearing thank you um i'll go to um shallony and then i see michael next thank you um i just wanted to add a respond also to janet's question about involvement one thing we learned from right i learned from jim nash from north tampton when he came down is that we can get the public involved early on in the process not necessarily in the public hearing itself but you know through the district meetings and through emails through neighborhood associations and so there are ways we can collect information and keep people informed and get their perspective throughout the process um the other question that i had for the planning board was given your level of work and quantity of work how involved would you all like to be in this process and where and you know like i mean many of us agree that we don't want to feel like we're stepping on anyone's toes and taking away someone else's job or whatever but it's more like how do we make this process really effective um and make the changes that are needed in alignment with a master plan do what's needed for our town but do it in a way that's it's seamless it's involves everyone it's transparent and it doesn't burden anybody and more specifically like do you want to be involved in some of like i feel like there's a lot of going back and forth where you all look at things and so i you know like you all provide the technical uh feedback which i think is definitely required but then there's a lot of continuing to go back and forth between the crc and the planning board and so how much of that is something you all want to be part of and if there's anything else you want to be part of in addition to what's there in the full chart thank you um the next hand i see up is michael michael burt was thank you um one of the primary arguments for the elimination of town reading and the adoption of the present charter was the was the desire for a more efficient means of changing the zoning bylaw that was one of the main selling points of those who were trying to get rid of town meeting and to create a new charter uh in town meeting days zoning bylaw change was a fairly simple process in my experience first step was based on suggestions from the public the planning the department staff members of the planning board its zoning subcommittee uh a the zoning subcommittee discussed an issue at some length the source of that issue was varied the chapter 40a of section five of of the master's general law suggests nine possible ways in which a zoning bylaw change can be brought to the legislative body uh any one of those uh results in it coming to the planning board uh in terms of the uh the uh first paragraph of section five says the board of selectment or the city council shall within 14 days of receipt of such zoning ordinance submitted to the planning board for review pretty simple pretty straightforward um the planning board then is step two uh after a public hearing and discussion voted to recommend it after several changes or suggestions or a variety of ways of working out the uh the suggested uh amendment and then part three after debate in town meeting with or without the endorsement of the board or with or without the endorsement of the finance committee the zoning by the proposed zoning bylaw was passed rejected or returned to the planning board for additional work uh that was seemed to me to be pretty simple and straightforward and in my five years in town meeting some proposed changes passed some did not uh which is as it should be i think however this may 6 2020 flowchart in that we are presented with it seems to me an extremely complex process involving multiple referrals time consuming back and forth negotiating among the council two of its committees town staff the planning board and the zoning subcommittee and perhaps even the zoning board of appeals this certainly does not serve the goal of greater efficiency it does however significantly reduce the responsibility and authority of the planning board please note that the chart states that the planning board's role and this is in let me find the right place in in box two the second box it says states that um the planning board's role is to quote work with the planning staff to decide on technical wording of revisions end quote while the crc is empowered to quote put forth the vision of how the zoning bylaw should work in town unquote i respectfully suggest that vision is more properly belonging to the master plan which of course is the responsibility of the planning board now instead of the cumbersome process proposed by this flowchart i respectfully suggest that the planning board would be allowed to do its work arguably its most important work the creation of suggestions for zoning bylaw revisions that has previously been and should continue to be the planning board's main responsibility proposing revisions to the legislative body it worked formally with the town meeting there's no reason it can't work now with the town council when the council receives a planning board recommendation for a change in the zoning bylaw it is of course free to accept reject amend or refer it as the council chooses if it wishes to elongate the process by delegating consideration to a committee or committees that of course is also its privilege but that's not the purview of the planning boards planning boards purview is to present the suggested bylaw changes as far as this particular issue is concerned and i must say that it is an added benefit that if and when we take the model that previously served as well and use it in the context of the new charter two separate hearings will necessarily be required for the passage of zoning bylaw changes hopefully the two separate hearings will lead to an increased level of public participation and scrutiny which i think is a significant benefit when it comes to changes of this magnitude thank you janet do you have your hand up or no um maria yeah sorry um so those are really great points michael and i i do understand how this seems a lot more complicated but when we transition to town council from town leaving the zoning subcommittee in the planning board working on a series of amendments and also this priority chart i know we've shown many times where we were hoping to get guidance from town council because they were the newly elected you know officials to sort of help us prioritize where to put our energies and so i think what this flow chart is doing is not saying necessarily like the planning board no longer is involved or even able to bring you know zoning amendments i think what it's saying is just trying to set up a process so that we can move forward in a way that works with state law and the way our town charters now written and so um i appreciate all work that's gone behind it it's a very complicated thing all these arrows and everything but i think that we are moving toward that original goal when we transition where i don't know if you remember we had like three zoning amendments that were just ready we're like let's test this this process with those three zoning amendments and then also we had that big matrix of all these priorities and we basically waited for town council to tell us you know how do you want to move forward and i think this is there you know this is them trying to do just that you know it's as clear and simplified way as possible while meeting all these many many requirements and so i i wouldn't i mean yeah it seems like there's a lot of steps but i think a lot of marks are just mandated i think that's like what Mandy joe is saying the first two boxes are the new ones but the rest is you know it's um it's kind of just cleaning it up and saying who drops what in at what point but it is still a lot but i i just feel like we are moving in the right direction because it's we we just got to do that me especially with this um zoning i'm in it coming up with the um outdoor for the restaurants and whatnot so i i think we should just give it a go um see how it goes for um this first few amendments um i would hate to have to keep rehashing this over and over i think we should just dive in we've been waiting for i forget how long um to get something if i you know uh done and i felt like at the zsc member we were just treading water for a long time and i don't know how the rest of the planning board members feel but um i think that yeah i i i hear what you're saying about this seem very convoluted but considering what we're waiting through um it's it's a really good first step so thank you maria i call on jack yes um i i appreciate you know mike's viewpoint on this it's it's really interesting you know going back to town meeting and how things were done and you know how it all you know is changing now with the town council but i i did appreciate uh shalini's points about wow they you know it seems like there's opportunity for much more grassroots involvement you know that is steered by people that were elected to their positions where you know planning board we are appointed you know i feel like uh we know we're good at um you know say auditing decisions or proposals excuse me proposals made um by others and and proposals generated by us as well but i just feel like i think we have a more valuable role in terms of more in an auditing thing versus a directive because i mean i certainly uh did not campaign to join planning board with any particular viewpoint other than i just you know want the town to be uh you know maintain its you know it's good standing and and and grow and and and provide the best to you know are the citizens in amherst so um i'm i'm very intrigued by town council taking on and shaping way things in a way that you know planning board really would just be stabbing in the dark you know in the past um and and again i think we're looking and also at expediting uh changes that again are mandated by the representatives who are our town council so but it's so interesting going back to town meeting i was done and you know it was that way for a very long time and it worked to a certain level but we want it with this charter change to work in a different way i guess at this point thank you jack i'll next call on janet so um i'm i've been on the zoning subcommittee for i guess almost a year now and um we have spent a lot of time on the zoning subcommittee trying to figure out how to bring these three amendments and then there's you know we've been talking about inclusionary zoning and a lot of other issues and i you know that the chart that maria has put together or the zoning subcommittee put together with the planning staff is there's a lot of things on there and there's a lot of expertise in the planning staff and the planning board there's a lot of work that needs to be done and i do see the planning board as sort of working with the planning department as a repository of sort of expertise on how the zoning bylaw works or doesn't work um we were told in the fall not to bring zoning to the town council because the town council's not ready and so i see this effort as a way of sort of the town council getting ready um i also find it kind of confusing and i as usual have a question another question which is um when if we get to box three it says the town council receives proposed zoning bylaw amendment say from the planning board and so would the planning board bring a proposed amendment which i think would be you know workshopped in the zoning subcommittee and working with the planning staff they have an amendment they think needs to be done they have the language down would we come to the town council with the proposed amendment without a public hearing or would we be waiting to have a public hearing to have referred back to us and then hold it or work on it i just i found that piece super confusing what like what like i don't know maybe chris um best up or mandu joe can add to this but it's my understanding that you know by the time we have something that's coming that we're sending to town council we've had numerous meetings on it and all of the planning board meetings are open and it's on our agenda and it's it's not like a permit hearing process it's just on our agenda and the public can comment any meeting on it and we would discuss it from my history of working on planning board it would be numerous hearings that it would come to us and we would keep reworking it and sending it back and chris and her staff would work on it and we'd fine tune it and would hear the public and that would fine tune it so there's what's not in this is our process because crc is trying to not tell us how to do our job we would still be doing our job in this it's just sort of then where does it go and you and there's like mandu joe was trying to explain there's a lot of deadlines and listings and notifications that have to happen and that's more what this shows so just those orange or red boxes on the left hand side it's not meant to simplify us or delegate us and or shrink our work all of that still exists it's just how are we communicating with crc and how are all the players involved to actually then go and send it and have the powers that be town council approve it well i guess i guess my question is so we so when when the planning board notice like when we hold the public hearing under the statute there's all these requirements and it's it's a significant thing and so i agree with you that we should be involving public early on um but notification goes out i'd love to hit all the networks that the town council has and have a hearing but also when we when we notice that hearing it has a legal effect of at that point um the zoning change that the planning board has proposed is have holding a public hearing on will apply to any permit that comes in that's pending at the moment and so that that's kind of an important you know inflection point and so i would think you know but if if the proposal is the planning board has done the workshopping we've spent a lot of time on it we're ready to go we're holding back on the public hearing to send it back to the town council to send it back to us to work with the crc to schedule and they have they go and they review the whole process and then we have a joint hearing a public a public hearing that could just push things back for like months and months you know and you know i think crc also has a very big agenda and so i wonder like what's is that a good idea like you know michael's sort of suggesting a more separate path we do our job we love this town council we want them to pass rezoning we work with the crc they everybody knows what we're doing but we retain some autonomy and a little bit more nimbleness in terms of just getting things moving and so in a process you know so that that's my thought right now thanks yeah i just wasn't clear on your where it would get held up for months and months if you can just give an example um and then maybe someone can address that later but i i wasn't sure where in this process it gets held up for months and months like i you know i you know we all have problems with their schedule as a group and i you know i've gone to a lot of crc meetings and they have a very big purview and you know they do they have been kind of remodeling and working on this for almost 11 months and so you know things are slow they also have trouble having a meeting date because they just because of their schedules and so i just wonder like will this help the planning boards process will this really help the process of moving zoning ahead when we see priorities we want to put them in the hopper get the town council activated get the crc activated you know do we all have to work together as 19 people or how many we are as a group um am i counting wrong 20 you're talking about planning board and crc yeah so you know that would be 12 people yeah but we also have to activate the town council who has to refer it back to us and then we're still waiting to trigger the public hearing date i like i i kind of it seems it just seems harder or something or more complicated okay i think i hear a little private conversation or no so i think i hear your michael please unnecessary stop oh you guys are so i asked janet and i have hands up i've had a hand up again michael if you remember she asked a question i was unclear how to handle it so she just clarified so at this time i was going to turn to mandy joe who has her hand up as chair of the crc i was going to ask her there is a point here crc is very busy we see your agendas you've got a lot going on where does this kind of bylaw flow chart fall in your priorities um you know you've got a lot going on how would this fit in how would we ensure that things wouldn't take weeks i don't think months but weeks to um get into this flow chart mandy thank you um i just want to respond the crc meets every other week um every two weeks essentially twice a month at a minimum um with the three planning board meetings coming up in the next two weeks we will be meeting five times um and so one of the things the council just did uh janet is right that a couple months ago as of you know last year crc had a huge huge purview um it had public ways it had um town services it had you know it had zoning and planning and economic development and public ways and higher education and a whole lot of stuff and back in january the town council split those responsibilities among two committees so right now the community resources committees main responsibilities are planning zoning development and economic development um and therefore our our i would say as chair the priorities are master plan and zoning and economic development um as they are and and as many people know zoning directly relates to economic development and and i you know so so i think we can look at the two zoning amendments that were actually on the table right now the temporary zoning bylaw that was proposed by staff to get an idea of how quickly if necessary both crc and the planning board can move um we at crc it was it came to staff it came to town council it was on an agenda for a referral and frankly referrals really can occur immediately um they they just show up on an agenda and they don't take a lot of time and they immediately go back out and it is being held a hearing is being held next week as everyone knows we'll be back here in a joint meeting to hold that hearing approximately three and a half weeks after it was brought to council because we could not get the hearing any earlier um and then it will be back at it is planned to be back at council on june 15th so i wanted to point out a couple things if we hold joint hearings the planning board has that 65 days to get to the hearing um you will see on the green side of this chart that the crc and the council i think it's not the green side sorry it is the last blue box the council has 90 days from the date of the crc hearing to vote so holding a joint hearing actually almost guarantees quick turnaround of zoning bylaw proposals because once crc is held a hearing it has to get to a vote not the first reading the second reading within 90 days so that that automatically puts a limited time on that um and then i wanted to address one more thing about the the whole process janet was talking about um the whole refers back to planning board and yes it would come to council without that initial hearing but that's mainly to start that clock and to allow the the council the community resources committee and the planning board to start really working together to plan that hearing um hopefully the the crc will have already seen the amendments that the planning board's been working on and and put in some public comments and comments to the planning board about its thoughts and all um as we get through this process but at some point um the council technically has to let the planning board let the let the not the planning board let the community resources committee formally take um a recommendation and a hearing stance um we are our charge as a subcommittee is written such that we can't just do that really without the council saying go ahead and do it and so that third box is really sort of a a check box that's very administerial to get that formal authorization from the council to really just start the process it could start in the beginning but if it starts in the beginning before the planning board has really been through its you know work on on timing then you're limited to 65 days which is a very quick turnaround for you and so this is a way to say well we can take our time the planning board can take the time it needs there and then when it says when it's ready for that hearing um it can bring it in and say let's get this hearing going let's start really communicating with CRC to plan that hearing and get it going I hope that answers the questions yeah that's very helpful thank you I'm going to move to Doug Marshall now thank you um in Michael's comments he mentioned that one of the purposes of converting to the town council was to make things more efficient in the way they operated um I would argue that there was a second objective which was to have a more accountable legislative body the fact that we now have a more accountable legislative body is reflected in this flow chart because as accountable representatives they want to be involved in what these proposals are so so that they can keep their seats so that they can be accountable to their districts and so that we don't waste time on something that they're never going to approve because it's contrary to the interests of their constituents so I view this flow chart as a necessary partnership between the planning board and town council because we need town councils support for whatever we put forward or we're wasting our time and they want us to be working on things that are consistent with their platforms and with the way they understand the interests of their constituents so I support Maria's position that we should give this a try the way it's written if it doesn't work we can adjust it and then finally I would say that although not every one of the planning board members have has commented thus far I think Shalini is probably getting a good answer to her question about how involved the planning board wants to be thank you thank you Doug I'm going to call on Evan Ross yes so actually Doug said a lot of the things that I was going to say and so did Mandy Jo but I'll just speak very generally for a second to say that some of our conversation has been about what things were like in town meeting but of course we're in a very a dramatically different form of government and I think that allows us to think a little bit more creatively one about what the relationship between the planning board and the legislative body is and that's what I like about this is it starts to articulate a clear relationship between these two bodies that both have some jurisdiction over zoning the other thing I think it allows us to do is it gives us a little bit of freedom to reimagine the role of the work of the planning board and so you know I think that Shalini's question was born out of a concern that I also have which is I've attended a few of y'all's meetings and y'all work real hard and those meetings are really long and I think there's a thought behind it of not trying to take things away from the planning board but essentially trying to make things easier for the planning board to do the necessary work and I think Doug's point about making sure you have buy-in from the legislative body that inevitably has to approve this and also bringing in some of the priorities and objectives of the representatives of the council early actually makes the work better and more efficient and it also allows you to some extent to ship some of that work to another body that has people who are eager to work on these things and I don't think that compromises the autonomy of the planning board at all I think that actually helps create a better dynamic and to what Doug said about accountability I think that's important too that you have collaboration between an appointed body and elected body and I think that creates a better product in the end because you have people who are accountable to the people and then people who are there largely for the expertise they bring working together that doesn't mean that I'm in love with this process and perhaps there are things that I would change but I do like that it articulates a clear relationship between the two bodies and how they can work together and I think it's worth trying out because what I think it's going to show us is where there are opportunities to reimagine the relationship and reimagine how the planning board might operate so that it can be a more manageable body as well and so I you know I think there's a lot of good things in this that are worth trying and the one other thing I'll say is I agree wholeheartedly with a statement that Jen made earlier which is that our planning department and planning staff just have so much expertise and knowledge and one of the things that isn't as clearly articulated here but I would like to see is really more involvement of that planning department because I think that the planning board and the town council should not be doing all of the work writing zoning proposals or any of that we're I think ICS to some extent as review bodies and so I'd actually like to see both the council and the planning board generate fewer zoning amendments and see the planning staff generate more zoning amendments based on their history their institutional knowledge their expertise and then have the council and the planning board function more as review bodies and also trying to align them with our visions for the town and which are driven of course by the master plan is someone who's been on the board for five years you really see us I agree with so much of that Evan. At this point I'm going to call on Chris and I just want the board members to think about I so agree that this this is a lot of thought has gone into this a lot of effort but I would be willing to try this and it's not written in stone it could be adjusted and I think we'll learn a lot as we roll forward and actually try to get some of these bylaws going so if the members can think about specific things that they want to change like Doug had a comment about that third box like things like that what could we tweak or needs to be tweaked right now but that overall it could be let's let's try it kind of thing Chris I see your hand best. I want to say exactly the same thing that Christine Gray Mullin just said I think we should try this it's not cast in stone it's not like you know chapter 40a of mass general laws it's a guide a guidebook the things you know below the middle of the page where there are you know specific numbers of days that have to occur between this and that and how many readings various groups have to have those are cast in stone but the whole top of the page really is just kind of a guidance for us and if it doesn't work we can change it and everything that the planning board does as a body is completely outside of this picture the planning board can go along and do what it does now working with staff to create zoning amendments and then present them like it says in the first box so I think this is a good outline of how we should can and should proceed from now on and then when we find that it is troublesome for whatever reason we'll make suggestions for changing it and I think it's really good to have guidance from the town council because I can remember so many times in the past where the planning board was very passionate about something and the planning staff was very passionate but the town meeting wasn't passionate at all about the same thing and the town meeting would say no we really don't want to do that or we don't want to do it that way and that was you know somewhat disheartening for both the planning board and staff so in this guidance that Mandy Joe is providing us I think there's a lot more opportunity to know what what town council might choose to go along with or perhaps there's something that's proposed that they don't exactly like the full package but they like aspects of it so that back and forth I think is going to be really helpful and we're not going to get into a situation where we work for months on something and then have it voted down so I think this is a good a good start and let's try it and see how it works thank you for that Chris at this time I only see one member's hand up and I will call on her and then I want the members I see and then all right I see Janet then Doug and I want the members to think about if you would be up for taking a vote on this in support just recommending yes we're willing to try this let's move forward um Janet so I um I would like to have the planning board talk about this more it's it's I'm sort of struggling to understand why it would be more efficient to hold the joint hearing when the planning board can get a referral or initiated some zoning change or get something from the member the public and work on it with a zoning subcommittee hold the public hearing and then pass it to the town council and then you know work with the CRC in just a sort of more organic way um then waiting back and holding back to schedule and joint hearings like I don't I think that I don't see why it's faster or more efficient overall um I do think that there's this amazing opportunity to work with the CRC and town counselors to the planning board to and and the planning staff to work more quickly closely and earlier with the legislation legislative body I don't think we need this chart to do that I think it just makes it makes political sense and it's common sense I've spent years asking that town meeting be more informed on the zoning things as they got along and not just waiting to that you know final warrant review and you know asking um the planning board and the planning department to involve the community more and so I do think we have a new form of government we have town counselors that have you know more um they have their kind of their contacts in the community I think we should tap that now for when we have hearings on important issues um that are you know permit hearings or any kind of issue the master plan it's great to tap that we had the planning department and the planning board could have done that in the past because there's lots of ways to reach people there are lots of community organizations but I still I'm still I'm I still just in terms of flow and efficiency I don't see why this is more efficient for us I sort of don't get it and so I'd like to reflect on that more it's been great to have this discussion we could like sort of get the chart more which is never you know it's always been a struggle for me but I think that um if the planning board can hold the public hearing start the clock pass it up um and then you know the town council has its own clock and then of course the planning board would want to work with the CRC as they do that of course they because it's their proposal you know or anything so I think the committees will naturally work together and should because that's you know that's good practice so I'm sort of on the fence here um so Mandy Joe this one part I heard twice in there um planning board working on it getting it ready and then sending it up to town council I think I don't think we can do that don't we have to have a joint hearing so the hearing does not legally have to be joint um the town council voted to ask voted to recommend that as much as feasibly possible the hearings be joint that vote was a recommendation it was also a recognition that there are sometimes where the hearing may not be logical to be joint um but that in most cases it can probably be a joint hearing um so so that's why this proposal has it only considered a joint hearing I don't think anyone you know my committee can correct me but we've had discussions where there are going to be some instances where we might say very early on you know we're going to need two hearings on that why don't you go ahead and do your own hearing at some point because hopefully we will be in that constant contact about these items and be able to determine that earlier rather than later but both hearings still have so if planning boards did have something and the whole send it up it goes up but then it would be sent right down to CRC to have their second on their own okay so there's no direct us to town council it still has to come back down to you all and do your thing and okay that's what I was clarifying all right thank you um I next see Michael and then I see David Michael thank you um I want to comment on something Maria said about an hour I can barely hear you Michael either okay good yeah I want to comment on something I think that Maria said about an hour ago uh relative to the way the zoning subcommittee has been essentially holding two or three zoning amendment proposals because they didn't the zoning subcommittee didn't know whether the town council wanted them or I can't paraphrase her exactly but the fact that there were in several amendments ready to go to the next step which would have been of course a public hearing uh at the planning board level and then passing it on to the town to the council that seemed to me a reasonable process um and then there's something that had already been said by someone else I can't remember who a minute ago the notion that uh the the CRC is uh uh a desirous of leading the way in which uh the planning board uh understands issues and takes up issues that there are certain issues that the council and the CRC want the planning board to take up uh and great uh I think they if there are issues like that they should tell us what they are and we should take them up and I think we would be very happy to take them up if we got a communication from the CRC or the council or any individual member thereof that this is something that I or we are interested in and planning board will take it up I think that would be great I think a good example of of how the process can really work effectively is the proposed zoning bylaw amendment that we're going to talk about uh about the uh the temporary needs for for outdoor vining uh that just that came as a as an emergency measure essentially to us uh and it's going to be received and adjudicated on an emergency basis and it will happen really fast this that's one place where a joint meeting of the council and the CRC uh sorry of the planning board and the CRC is a really good idea but as a regular process I don't think it's necessarily a good idea uh each zoning bylaw idea has its own basic uh good sense process uh and to try to codify this I appreciate the work that the CRC has done in putting this together uh but I just think it puts us in a in a situation of having to check off boxes and making sure everything works right when we don't really have to do that the logic of the state laws that requires this the the town charter that requires certain things uh and as long as we follow those regulations uh I think whatever way in which the bylaw the zoning bylaw change comes to the council is fine and I don't think we need to spend all the time talking about process I think we need to spend the time talking about specific zoning bylaw changes and I want the zoning our zoning subcommittee I've been saying this for a year I want our zoning subcommittee to process these change of these ideas that they have and get them to the council and I want the CRC or the council to tell us what they want us to work on and I don't think we need this chart to do any of those things thank you Michael um David hi thank you um I appreciate the robust conversation that's been going on um and I agree with a lot of it even though it seems like divergent it it seems to me that we are I'm going to echo what Michael just said lastly I think we're we're in like high mode of process processing and let's just get out of them let's just start stop spinning the wheels here let's give this a ride see where it's bumpy see where it can't get fixed see where it leads us it'd be great if we got some if the planning board and the staff receive more specific concrete direction on things to work on for development and for zoning changes and for economic development for this town but let's just start doing the work and this seems like a let's start with this framework great um it's important I think that it's really valuable um to have the timeframes so clearly worked out because that's where things could become fatal um that would be just unnecessary unnecessary um and and so having these these timeframes worked out I think is a valuable resource whether they're joint or not joint hearings again we'll figure that out as we go along let's start doing the work I would be comfortable tonight voting on recommending this as a you know as a step forward and understanding that it's a you know all step well it's always under reconsideration for reevaluation on how well the process works let's just I'd say we should I would be comfortable voting and recommending that this process start now um and I look forward to it thank you okay thank you um at this point I've heard from a majority of the planning board members who seem to be in support of uh let's give this a go and see how it works um I'm going to call on Sarah Schwartz I see her hand and then um we could do a vote Sarah yeah so I just wanted to say that um one of the things that town council found out pretty quickly is that we really we had no rules of procedure and and a lot of things and when you come from a place that this is how it was always done you really rely on those rules and you can bend them as you need to bend them but we had no established rules and it made things very difficult to go forward and so I think for us it's just establishing trying to establish rules that will help everybody as we go along I hear the the planning board is what okay what I'm sort of hearing inferred is that the planning board you guys know what you're doing right you're there for a reason I can totally understand the planning board is saying please let us do our job and please respect the expertise that we have and also I myself don't feel like the planning board is this is another thing that I I feel like maybe I heard it wrong but there's maybe a fear that planning board will then become a tool of town council for individual town counselors to get you know zoning change that will help us get reelected and and I don't I that's not true and I don't see that at all and I have tremendous respect for the planning board I think that the things that we've put forward here are just better ways for us to work with you as a team with the utmost respect that we have for you and so for us it's just starting to try to figure out the rules and then figure out how we work as a team and then going from there if something doesn't work and and it's from where I'm coming from this is just meant to try to establish a good working relationship when we just don't have any rules yet and how to do it thank you Sarah so at this time um is there someone who just I it's a motion of um how to vote on this I I see Doug's hand yeah I'll make a motion that the planning board uh vote uh to express its support for this protocol for navigating zoning bylaw amendments uh as a recommendation to town council that we adopt the protocol and uh see how it goes is someone willing to second that David I do see your hand up are you second yeah I've got a question actually I've got a procedural question if this is a joint meeting of the two bodies is it a joint vote or or is it like a planning board vote so do we sequester the planning board I don't understand how it works no so even if this was a joint meeting for the bylaw which will run through next week we would still take our separate votes so the chair of CRC if this was a bylaw right now they would then do their separate vote but we're just doing a planning board vote right now okay then I'll second Doug's yeah great thank you uh it's Mandy yes um and and I just wanted to answer David I hope that after you guys vote that my committee might be willing to entertain a motion too so hopefully some committee members are thinking about a motion okay so we have a motion is there anyone who would like to make a comment or a question to it I see only one hand Janet so um this so I have a question about when it would be appropriate to have separate public hearings and who would decide this would the chairs decide that which would it be a vote of the two committees to have separate hearings and what would be the circumstances that would lead to a separate hearings um I just you know it's I you know I just and sort of just a simple question that's a good question uh I know Mandy Joe and I talked about this at one point and sometimes it's just as simple as it would be timing timing's not working we can't get the two groups together they're either having too many meetings or there's not enough members for a quorum that was the first level that we saw that there would be a problem um Mandy Joe do you have anything to add uh that that's that's definitely one of them um another one would potentially be and and my guess is and and my committee hasn't fully talked about this but we have mentioned sometimes there's been committee members that have mentioned maybe if a bylaw is suspected to have a whole lot of public interest say or that maybe the public interest might um necessitate necessitate potential changes after hearings um that it might be wiser to have two instead of one um I think Janet you mentioned some of that as a possibility on on some things anyway where where it was either you or Michael that said sometimes it's better to have two to give two opportunities for the public to formally weigh in um and do we do we does the CRC and planning board have to be voting on the same bylaw like what if the planning board loves this zoning bylaw it goes to the CRC and you don't like it can you hold that up are you going to vote it anyway like what happens if we have two versions for there's not support amongst the CRC for it but there might be support in the larger town council so do we have to be having a joint hearing about the exact same zoning bylaw no I mean in in the sense that what at least my my understanding is in the sense that it has to be the same concept um but it could potentially have changes between your hearing if there were two separate hearings your hearing and CRC's hearing um there's also let let me finish there's also the ability for the town council after hearing as was mentioned in town meeting you know and all of that I think Chris and going through the town meeting stage there'd be a hearing at planning board and then it could go through 20 different amendments before it even made it to town meeting the town council has all complete ability to amend anything on the floor anyway and there isn't that requirement as as Steve mentioned there's no requirement for an additional hearing so if the planning board feels like it has a zoning revision it really likes it it sends it up to the town council town council sends it back and then the CRC starts working on it and we're going to be we like our we like our revision you guys don't like it you start changing it but then we decide to at some point whenever you're ready if you're ready to have a joint hearing maybe on two different bylaw ideas or maybe the CRC just wants this one thing you have to remember Janet is CRC is five of the voting members of town council they're the ones who are going to vote on this and pass it so we can propose all we want I mean this is the reality we don't have the power to make it a bylaw we can propose a million different things but that's why we want to work towards agreement and ideally it would be the same article we're going to work with staff like why would we have something so radically different than CRC staff is you know the ones who are fully working on this and they would have best practices and certain recommendations so it's a group effort and it always has been when it was going to town meeting to find compromise and common ground and people agreeing maybe not wanting it exactly that way but you have to send one thing forward so ideally you all want to be on the same page let me respond to one thing Janet said if the hearing is held jointly we'd have the same bylaw in front of us but if we decide to split the hearings up it's entirely possible that the hearing that the bylaw that the hearing that the planning board holds the hearing on by the time CRC holds the hearing on that same concept the language has changed changed if they're not joined so as an evolving article does when we have the joint hearing the goal is to have language at the planning board and the CRC all agree on I can barely hear you but I think yes ideally you want a joint hearing would have the same language and we want everybody on the same page and staff would have to work with the different parties to get everybody to understand why certain parties weren't want something in a certain way and if the planning board doesn't agree then you would hold separate hearings I guess okay I can barely hear you but yeah sorry if I've left I'm still here okay so thank you Mandy Jo um that's a very different understanding that I had I'm glad okay I can't really hear you so um David has his hand up and then sorry it's moving David and then Michael and we do have a motion on the table so this is where we're asking about questions to clarify for our vote no I just urge the planning board members to um I mean I was feeling the love from Sarah earlier as a planning board member and that that you know we're we're just we're just we're all let's just start figuring out how we work together and we'll as the hypotheticals become real scenarios that that'll that'll inform how that gets uh we hope improved um and and so that we can you know work out the kinks there are a lot of kinks we've got to still you know vision vision vision but you know I was I feel sufficiently loved that we're not going to be desk respected and and I would urge us all that we we vote with that good faith and optimism that we could benefit from these days thank you well said David uh Michael yeah I'm all for good faith and optimism too um and the the notion of let's try this and see what happens um I don't want to you all know how I feel about this and I don't want to be a stick in the mud here but uh if we're going to try this and see how it works are we going to have a time limit on that is this going to it's going to be a sunset on this is what we're going to try for two years and then reevaluate it uh what's sort of next or is it just going to evolve and uh the problem is it's it's written down uh and something written down and approved then it has a different level of of of importance than something that's just an idea that we're all talking about so uh what about that what about a sunset uh Mandy Joe um I just wanted to respond to the it's approved and all um I know as chair of CRC I have heard clearly that from the planning board whether or not this vote goes through that it's a try um this is set tentatively to be heard at the council meeting on the 15th but it is not up for a vote on the 15th and in fact one non-CRC member of the council um indicated that maybe the council shouldn't even vote on this process that it really is a CRC planning board process um and and that we need to just keep the plan the council informed of how we're going to deal with all of this I don't know how that conversation will go with the council but I wanted to point that out because if it really doesn't get voted on by the council if it really just stays our two processes um that we're hoping to follow then then we can in some sense continually evaluate it after three or four different zoning amendments we can see was this working did joint hearings work did they not work um and then come back to another joint meeting of the planning board and CRC and and talk about it and see if we do need to revise it um one thing that council in its first 16 months has found is that processes are almost never set in stone the first time you create them because you don't know how it's going to work until you actually have to do it and so the council has revised a number of processes and committees have already revised a number of processes multiple times because they've found the first thing they thought might work doesn't work so at least this this body of counselors is is very open to trial and error and retry and go back and fix again thank you um at this time I just want to check in with the public um and I don't think we have any comments at this time I Pam are you there I see we am here phone in caller did anyone pound start no one has um their hand up to share a comment in the attendees okay I just want to make sure we weren't forgetting anyone um I do see two members with their hands up but I assume that they've already spoken and they're done um I think we're ready to take a vote oh Michael you want to speak again yes my hand was up because I had something that I wanted to say in response to what many judges said um with if the council approves this as a process that casts it in a different kind of stone than if we just approve is that right it casts it in a harder stone it's in granite as opposed to uh sandstone I wouldn't say it's in granite um it it it adds one step to the process of revising simply um the only step it would add is um that the council would then have to refer it back to the planning board and CRC to revise but I feel very confident in saying that if the CRC or the planning board approached the council president with a request and then to put on the agenda and then approach the council and said you know this process really isn't working we need to revise it that referral would happen immediately uh Janet do you want to speak again yeah before the vote so we can't hear you at all willing to try this like one or two maybe three times um you know we have sort of easier issues you know we've been waiting with but I'd be interested in trying this once or twice to on harder issues I think it might get very thorny about you know when we before we get to the joint hearing working on language working instead of just with seven members working with 12 people um who you know we're an independent body and that's that's our strength in kind of you know way a small weakness I'd be willing to try this but I really don't want to say yes to this chart for the next year or two let's just see how this goes and after two or three tries to revisit it I think that um it's if it's cumbersome and long and nothing gets done or we're arguing over language which people are known to do and the more people who are involved the more you know is then you know I'd be I would be like okay we tried three times two times it just didn't work for us we'll have to figure out something else um that's that's my suggestion I wouldn't want to say this is how we're going to work forever or without a time limit to it for a number of limits okay so we have um emotion and uh I'm gonna do roll call to vote um to refresh what we had um Chris or Pam in the minutes it's been a long time now um what did we have is a motion from David the motion was from Doug and it was Doug oh thank you it was Doug and seconded by David I I got part of it I didn't get the whole thing I think he just said to um now remember since it was Doug it was very short he just said to to give this a try and move forward with it for the board to express their support for this process support recommend and give it a try so on that I'll do a um uh I have a question yes about the motion exactly uh this is important because if we're approving the idea that's one thing if we're approving this document that's a different thing I'm willing to approve the idea but I'm not willing to approve the document I think the document is is not helpful I think the idea is helpful so what are we what are we doing well why don't we make uh Doug maybe you can refine but to me I'm just trying to say that we as a planning board will start to follow this document as our procedure in working with CRC and the town council to get bylaws to them for approval Christine you want me to repeat myself sure specifically sure yes all right moved that the planning board expressed its support for the use of the flow chart for zoning bylaw amendments dated March 11th 2020 revised May 6th 2020 as the basis for its procedure in working on zoning bylaw amendments with the CRC thank you Doug for that clarification and can I hear a second again for that sure I second great okay so are there any further questions Michael I see your hand up oh I'm sorry okay I don't see any hands so at this time I will roll call for the motion on the table Michael Burt whistle no Maria chow yes approve jack gem sick approve David Levenstein approved Doug Marshall affirmative Janet McGowan no and myself Christine gremelin affirmative so that's uh five two zero uh Mandy Joe since it's a joint meeting what is there anything you'd like to do I gotta unmute myself where are you is is there anyone on my committee that would like to make a motion to recommend something to the town council Evan so first you said that there was some opinion expressed by someone who was not on the council that this would it's not something they needed approval by the council you're muted we can't hear Mandy where I didn't even mute myself that time at agenda setting this this afternoon um counselor Brewer attended the meeting and when we were trying to decide whether to put this zoning flowchart on that agenda as a action item or as a presentation item she believed that it should be a presentation item because it is more of a process for a committee than a council process so she made that argument very strongly and so it will if the votes go through tonight appear on the agenda as a presentation item and if there are counselors that believe it needs to be voted on based upon the referral vote that the language of the referral vote that had us starting this in the first place then it may turn into a vote at the at another meeting otherwise it would not I hope that's a little clearer it I mean yes it's clear as it's clear as it could be given that it's complex so I'm not sure how you feel about that yet and I think I actually might agree with Alyssa on this um I'd have to think about it so um I'm not sure that I'm ready to make a motion to recommend this to the council I would be willing to make a motion to the CRC adopt this why don't we start with that motion and after the council meeting if we need another one we can work on another one I kind of want Sarah's hand something I kind of want to hear how I see yep I see Sarah's hand Sarah unmute please okay so I will say that um because of work on a prior committee um I also feel like this would be considered one of the things that is a case of work and that doesn't have to be approved by the town council and also one thing that I would maybe have us think about is in order to maybe allay some fears the planning board has maybe we could put a date in it that is like an official review date and I'm not really sure how we would do that um but if there could be some language in there so that they would feel more comfortable you know that we are working with them as a team thank you Sarah Evan Evan thanks Sarah for both agreeing and also complicating um so I think that for now I'd like to keep my motion simple because I'm not sure what date we would use to review and I also think given the experience that I've had on a different committee that Sarah is very familiar with we did continue it was an iterative process of reviewing our own internal process and recommending changes as we saw them needed so I worry sometimes that a date that we say we're going to review this in six months means that we put off reviewing it until six months instead of doing things as we see them so I think I'm going to put for now I think I am going to put forward just a simple motion that says um that I move that the CRC adopt the flow chart described in the document flow chart for zoning bylaw amendments March 11 2020 revised May 6 2020 do I hear a second second shalini shalini seconds is there any additional conversation shalini oh you just lowered your hand seeing none we will move to a vote of the CRC I will do a roll call I think I'm going to try and do this in order I don't always get the alphabetical order correct though so shalini yes um Mandy is a yes uh Evan yes and then it's Steve yes and Sarah yes that is a unanimous um so if I may Christine yes at this time I I want the CRC has concluded its agenda I want to thank the planning board for hosting us tonight um I want to thank you guys for being willing to work with us on zoning amendments and the master plan I know that one's in process right now um and you guys have been hearing stuff and we look forward to seeing what those revisions might come out of your your committee looking like um we appreciate your work on all of that I want to say we're looking forward to the next two weeks where we will be in front of you and joining you again especially next week for a temporary zoning article for a hearing we will get to try this out in some sense for the very first time even though we're kind of starting it in the middle of it but thank you all for your time we appreciate it and we look forward to working with you all and at that um unless I see any hands from the fellow committee members of mine I'm going to adjourn the CRC meeting portion of this at 9 16 p.m to allow the planning board to continue on with its agenda thank you we'll see you next week thank you thank you see y'all real soon thank you at this point it is 9 16 and I would um I've been requested to that we take a five minute restroom break so if we can let um Amherst media know that we're just taking a five minute break so all the members can go off get what you need and then we'll be back here I have 9 17 so at 9 22 we will resume actually I just thought of something Pam we should probably have a slide that says we'll be right back break yeah we'll resume shortly uh boy we're going to have this down perfectly eventually I will make that how fun will that be and then you can just keep that on your desktop or something but um yeah that would be great thank you okay I'm going to take a minute I'll be right back okay I'll stay live for now so this is currently the Amherst planning board meeting for June 3rd it is live but we're taking a five minute break as we are almost three hours into the meeting we will be resuming at 9 22 so it's 9 20 right now this is the Amherst planning board meeting we're on a five minute break and we'll be resuming at 9 22 I was just gonna ask what time are we starting back up yeah 9 22 so we got a couple more minutes here it is so humid in my house oh really oh my gosh it was really humid outside yeah for the last couple of days it's been so cold my heat even came on one morning oh my god I know I had to run downstairs and shut it off like no mine came on too like two mornings ago yeah unbelievable June yeah burning oil in June I had put all the wheels away well we installed a mini split last summer because there was that week I don't remember in August where it was like a week straight of like a hundred percent humidity and it didn't drop in temperature at night so I finally installed one and we just have it on the lowest setting the dehumidified setting and it makes a huge difference is it yeah an entire house yeah just the lowest setting wow I missed shrimp and grits I can't believe it I'm sorry my favorite meal how much did the mini splits cost um if it's a real straightforward pipe that just exits out the back and goes straight down to the compressor the condenser it's like maybe 3000 4000 installed but ours was like twice that because of course I couldn't have the compressor visible I had to have it you know off to the side so they had to do this like 30 foot long pipe you know I had to architect it all up so of course you did yeah it was more like 7 000 for me but you have to do it room by room uh basically we had the one mega condenser and have multiple heads to that one so you don't have to have like a separate head for that's what we have we have a single head in our bedroom and then a second uh we hooked the compressor up to our old furnace so we do the entire house except for our bedroom with one sort of connection to the compressor and the bedroom to the other one we had the we had them put in last year and we have one condenser and three rooms and you can have bigger and smaller so we have like a large part go to our living room dining room area and then we have the smaller go to the bed two bedrooms so I mean our air can our window air conditioners are just like they're so disgusting and they don't last but you know before they start getting disgusting so yeah well as Maria said the best part and then we'll move on is the dehumidifier aspect of it because you don't have to run the air conditioner it just drives it out which is yeah so the comfort level I do I have it as 923 I think I heard Doug's voice so I know he's there I think we're all back so we're gonna hit the next thing which was um five old business Chris do we have anything on old business excuse me I'm eating a cookie there is no old business okay so we'll move to item six new business a temporary zoning introduction and preliminary discussion of proposed zoning amendment zoning bylaw article 14 temporary zoning regarding permitting for certain uses during COVID-19 emergency and it's aftermath planning board members discussion only public hearing scheduled for June 10th which is next Wednesday so at this point I'll turn it over to Chris if she's done with her cookie and if you can just sort of give us what's going on a heads up so we're ready for next week yeah so the idea here is that you know so many businesses have been suffering lately some businesses have closed most of our favorite restaurants aren't really operating very much right now and we wanted to think about what we could do in terms of zoning to make life easier for them so we came up with this idea of having a zoning amendment that would allow certain things to happen temporarily but it might also allow certain other things to happen long term and it's really um it's all about allowing approvals to happen on an administrative level and not requiring someone to go through um you know a two month planning board process or a three month zoning board of appeals process so um I I'll just tell you a little about it it really only applies to certain zoning districts so the business bg zoning district bl which is um there are three bls around the downtown and there's also a bl out on university drive the bvc business village center which is in north amherst comery village and um trying to think if there's any other bvc I'm sure there is oh yeah east amherst where Mr. Amir's building is bn business neighborhood which is where the elements hot tub spa is and the commercial zoning district so in those business zoning districts we would for uses that are currently permitted by site plan review or by special permit and for other some pre-existing non-conforming uses for instance there's a pizza parlor on the corner of fearing street and sunset I believe um so for those kinds of businesses in those districts for retail establishments personal care establishments and food and drink establishments and also for accessory uses that are associated with these establishments such as outdoor dining live entertainment and drive-thru facilities so the idea is that the building commissioner would be given the authority in place of the permit granting board for special permit granting authority I'm sorry the cookie must have gone down the wrong way to allow these things to happen design review would not be required um as it is currently in the bg zoning district there would be an application process that would be set up and we've already set it up actually based on the governor's order but I'll tell you about that in a few minutes and the building commissioner would consult with me the planning director to make sure that what we were doing was in line with what had been done previously for instance if there was a business that had been approved by the zoning board of appeals it was a certain type of business that offered you know food and drink and um had outdoor dining well what we would look back and say well what kinds of conditions did the zoning board of appeals put on that particular use you know we would be very conservative in our um dealing with these but we would be in the same line as the zoning board of appeals or the planning board but it wouldn't require this lengthy process of approval and um the period of time that we're talking about is 180 days so we are talking about temporary zoning um to allow this kind of approval to happen however there might be some uses that would be new uses that you know say there was a downtown um uh storefront that was empty as a result of a restaurant going out of business well if there were a new person who wanted to take over that space and start a new restaurant um and perhaps have some outdoor dining that that person would also be able to take advantage of this um this article 14 zoning process and you know potentially be able to stay there I mean if he's going to put the money into um renovating the the the space and then putting um tables and chairs outside well certainly he should be able to you know take advantage in the long term of his interior renovation the exterior use of sidewalks would be um on a temporary basis and accompanying this zoning amendment would be the ability of the town manager this isn't part of zoning but it would be something that town council would grant to the town manager authorization to allow certain parts of the right of way to be used for seasonal outdoor dining and and this could take the form of using parts of the sidewalk or parts of the street itself potentially where there are parallel parking spaces along the street or it might take the um take the the shape of using a parking lot you know there's a parking lot over in prae street there's one in on spring street there's one right out in front of town hall so those all might potentially be used as um places for outdoor dining there's also a little plaza in the boatwood garage area that could be used so we're in the process of mapping out these areas but um the essential idea is that the building commissioner would be given authority during this 180 day period or six months to allow these kinds of uses to occur along with their accessory uses and we think it would really give a boost to the to the businesses downtown that are suffering so badly right now i'm getting back on track um so i think that's pretty much the extent of my presentation we you will get a more um complete presentation from the building commissioner who's planning to attend the public hearing next wednesday um now the governor i shouldn't mention i will extend my presentation a bit to say that the governor has um given an order that allows outdoor dining to occur without going through side plan review and special permit process throughout the state and he's also allowed the local licensing commissions to extend the area the premises they call it where alcohol can be served so in other words someone who has a restaurant you know say judies or something like that judies may want to set up tables along the sidewalk and serve the same things that they serve inside their restaurant as they would out in the sidewalk and in order to do that ordinarily they would need an extension of their premises from the abcc and they would also need it from our local licensing commission so the governor has given the local commissions the ability to grant those extension of premises a lot of this is based on the fact that i should have introduced this in the beginning but the fact that none of these businesses are going to be able to operate at full capacity inside um at first they're going to be limited to 25 of their um capacity and then you know probably work up to 50 but for quite a while they're only going to be able to operate at a fraction of their normal capacity so if we can give them some ability to extend their area where they can serve food and drink to the outdoors this would be beneficial to them now the reason to keep our article 14 going even though the governor has issued his order well our article 14 applies to some new uses as i described if there's a vacant store front and someone wants to come and set up a restaurant um there our article 14 would apply to that it also applies to personal care establishments such as um you know a hairdresser that might want to set up a chair out on the sidewalk i can imagine matt's barbershop doing that back in the boat with walk area and also um retail shops that might want to put some of their wares out on the sidewalk um so it's a little bit broader and we've also gotten um word from our town council joel bar that it's also a more stable form of allowing these things to happen the governor's order is great but the it's up to the governor as to when he's going to um you know rescind the order he could rescind it sooner right now it's scheduled to be rescinded november first or i believe it's either that date or sooner so he could rescind it sooner than november first but our order would go through probably at least through the end of the year so it's a little more abroad in its scope and a little more stable and joel bar has reviewed this and he's made several suggestions about improving the wording and this is the wording that he agrees with and so i guess um you know people can can ask questions or make comments oh and also i wanted to say janet submitted some comments which um pam has on her slideshow here and then i submitted janet's comments to rob mora the building commissioner and he wrote in response so we have both janet's um comments and rob's um and rob's responses but why don't we look at the original language first and then see if anybody has any questions okay so i see michael sand there we are okay i was i was muted i think this is a great idea um i have one question though uh the 100 the 180 days takes us to january first something like that depends on when this gets approved um really the last two months or three months even though that was not going to be really useful for outdoor dining so is that a good date the other part of that question is um an establishment is going to have to invest in some outdoor tables umbrellas and chairs and bollards to mark off the space or something like that does this permission then expire automatically uh at the 180 days or whatever whatever the day is and therefore next summer they can't use the stuff that they've invested in or that have to have a new application how would that work it seems to me that if this is a good idea i think it is a great idea the time frame ought to be extended at least to include summer of 21 as well as the remainder of summer of 20 so i think may i answer yes please i think it somewhat depends on whether they're using their own property or whether they're using um town right of way so if they're using their own property they could probably um you know extend this past the 180 days i think that would probably have to be a discussion on a case by case basis with the building commissioner um if they're using town right of way we wouldn't necessarily want them to continue to use it past the 180 days um so does that answer your question uh yeah it does but it also raises an issue that if if they're going to have to invest in these outdoor furnishings and it's only going to be useful for three months or so uh that's not really much of a stimulus may i respond partially to that yes please so one idea is that the town is considering purchasing some furniture such as picnic tables and potentially some sort of barrier particularly if the work would be done in the town right of way so if they did if they did that that would take away some of the expense that um people would have to make but um you know there there are probably entities like uh johnny's tavern for instance they already have a patio area they could easily set up something on their own property and potentially there they could you know have something this year and then could carry it on into next year they would probably invest in the furniture and then you know be able to use it next year but you know we haven't gotten into that level of detail i think it really would be um kind of on a case by case basis as to exactly um how this how this would be managed but that's certainly a question that you can ask the building commissioner when he comes before you next wednesday yeah that's good i'm not trying to solve the restaurants problems just to thought if they can't have people inside a lot of them will have furniture inside that they could bring out it wouldn't be weatherproof they might have to bring it back in or cover it but maybe they can make use of some of what they already have since they won't be inside or maybe there's rental things so yeah rob might be able to give us some insight more on what the restaurants are thinking when we have the joint hearing next week do you know if representatives from the bid or the chamber are coming because you know they kind of speak for the restaurants and they might have some ideas of how this is going to be helpful or any tweaks or suggestions they have i can certainly invite them okay i think that's a great idea all right thank you i see janet mcgallin's hand um i have questions um i do i do see the urgency especially after my trip to wealthly where um you know restaurants were shut down except for out and um you know it's it's it's very dire for our local businesses um i had um a few questions and one of them is is this a permanent permit is this just a permit for or is it a permit and is it a permit no can it can i interrupt for a moment is are these the questions that you submitted to chris that you're asking now or are these additional questions because if they're the same questions i'll have them pull them up on the um on the screen um is this no this is the actually these are proposed changes to the zoning language the bylaw language but um so i these are just questions i have that um in addition to this document with other suggestions you have yeah so in a okay the answers to this question to help me understand these amendment like if these amendments are needed so why don't we go back to the original document pam yeah so the first question is is are these permanent permits or are they just for 180 days because that's not clear from the from this proposed bylaw um and so like i think for existing businesses i could understand the urgency of getting just getting people out you know getting haircuts outdoors people eating outdoors you know whatever business can do outside i could see that and so but the question was is this a permanent permission to do that so in some cases it might be say in the case of johnny's tavern if they can set something up on their patio which i think they were considering doing anyway they would have had to go through a three-month process with the zoning board of appeals um the building commissioner could give them um an administrative approval to do that and that would continue through to next year but if there was something where someone was setting something up in the town right of way or on the sidewalk um that you know would would revert back to being needed as a public way eventually once more people come to town then um you know that wouldn't be an appropriate thing to do on a permanent basis and that type of permit would expire at the end of the 180 days so that's why i was saying it's it's really kind of on a case by case basis as to how we would handle these things and you know the building commissioner is pretty strict i must say um my experience with him is that he's letter of the law and he would always look back to the way that the zoning board of appeals or the planning board would have dealt with this particular issue he's not someone who's going to let you know mayhem reign and he is also um he's in charge of the inspectors the health inspectors and they're very careful too so i really feel like putting this in his hands is putting it in in very responsible hands to think about this kind of thing really carefully um my second question is about the new businesses i think i i i read that it um it takes an average of seven months to get the permits to open a new business and i wondered if you could just walk explain to me why that takes so long so obviously some businesses go faster some go slower but what are the steps that take so long and then um does it matter if you're a retail facility or you're a bar or you're a restaurant or you're a bookstore or you're in a neighborhood like next to houses like what what is it that what are the steps and what makes something longer than another thing so in terms of retail um usually in the downtown area retail already gets an administrative approval from the building commissioner um if they're not making any changes to the exterior other than signs and lighting there's no reason for them to go to the planning board or go to the zoning board of appeals um for a restaurant um a class two restaurant class two restaurant is something that serves alcohol and um you know could be within 150 feet of a residential dwelling unit um so they're more more highly regulated they can be open late uh as late as uh after 11 30 um i think they can be open until one o'clock or something like that so those kinds of things those class two restaurants do take a long time it takes approximately three months if everything goes well to get a special permit from the zoning board of appeals from the time you apply and then of course there are building permit requirements and liquor license requirements and common vitrular license requirements and you need to then do all of the work that you need to do in the interior of the space in order to you know build it to the way you want to operate and then you need to get that approved and inspected so you know probably from the beginning until you finally open a place might take as long as seven months i don't think the permitting itself would take that long but um it could take that long to get a a place up and running if you have an existing restaurant and you just need a permit to start operating you know you can um probably do that in three months but um this would give people uh an advantage because it would happen more quickly this could happen in as little as 10 days okay thank you those are my questions hey i don't see any other hands up chris do you so janet submitted suggestions to change the amendment and then mr morrow gave comments back do we need to go over those or are you just sending that out to us what i'd like to do is um email them to you i couldn't email them to you today because it would have been a breach of the open meeting law so i'd like to email them to you and have you consider them over the next week and i'll email you rob's responses and you can evaluate them and then um have an opportunity to discuss them next week so this doesn't show mr morrow's comments these are just this is just janets and then we'll get a separate okay all right great so we will watch for those at this time um i want to ask um and then i'll i think janet still has her hand up um i just want the board at this time if you have any questions or you think something might be helpful to get answered or for staff to look into or if there's certain people that should be at the joint hearing because that's next week with crc it'll be a joint hearing and we'll both vote on it sending it to town council so uh janet do you have something else you want to say yes i actually i sent these out as just to say these are the amendments i'm suggesting but i didn't give the reasoning and so um i could um how do i get my thoughts to the you say it right now okay so um i think i'm okay with i would i would let me get to my my my sheet janets um suggestions pam i can thank you is that so these are suggestions you want the building commissioner and and christine to change on the current article 14 well i because we're in sort of an abbreviated process i was hoping to talk to the planning board about them um and for me if the permit is just for six months or you know even till next summer i wouldn't suggest the first change um i think it should be clear that the permits so i would i would i'm actually if it's a temporary permit and then it will come back to the planning board the zba um and you know the crisis which seems like it's going to go on for a long time um if it's a permanent permit i would suggest the first change if it's a temporary permit which is my second um my second change is on the first section then i would be fine with just leaving the uses in so um so i'd like to and so i just think that we need you know i see this as a time of crisis but i also feel like the correct if we need there's no reason why these things can't come back to the boards for more consideration and once the permit is issued if it's permanent and it's not working out or additional conditions need to be made we don't have a lot of power to do that and so there's a lot of you know helpfulness in having a bunch of heads looking at different conditions and different expertise and so i'm fine on the dealing with the crisis getting businesses open issuing a temporary permit but at some point there is time to reflect and come back um so that's the reasoning in the first um application process section um i also was very concerned that with this process being so abbreviated and so quick that people who are affected by the decision you get butters who would include not just the property owners but the tenants in a building the businesses nearby and neighbors neighbors living nearby could easily have no notice whatsoever that the application has been made and a decision has been made and so i added the section that says on the day of the application the applicant shall notify all property owners business owners and residents within 300 feet of the applicant's place of business um it's still a tight schedule but at least people will have notification you know if it's mailed out i don't think it's going to help because it's taken me five days to get a packet mail to me and so easily somebody could open their mail on a friday realize this application has been made days a week almost a week ago try to get some information and the decision has been made so i was very concerned about like a butters getting noticed and having an ability to participate in the permitting decision or the the administrative thing so i think that's really important and then on the decision section i thought 10 days was really tight and i thought we should give more time to the building commissioner and chris to you know look at and process because if you get 11 applications in and you have 10 working days that just seemed really tight and then i threw a little language in for more flexibility which is 15 business days of receipt of the complete application or later if reasonably necessary so i just thought that that fudge would be needed to take a little pressure off of our town staff who seem very busy all the time and can you go to the next page yep and then i'm having trouble seeing my own writing here i think that was the end of that is the end oh great yeah okay so we hear you janet and then we'll also get an email with mr morr's comments on that thanks for that i was trying to yeah describe those uh sure go for it well mr morr felt that the suggestions would significantly change and limit the effect of the proposal um he thought that in in terms of the uses the change would only allow us to consider helping existing businesses and wouldn't provide an opportunity to help fill in the vacant storefront um he thought that the process um does this mean that's six months from when it was approved oh well you know what i'm like not in the frame of mind to read this myself i'll email it to you tomorrow and um yeah and we'll discuss the point is chris that mr morr is considering her suggestions yes and the powers that be all of you that are working on this um article 14 we'll consider this and uh i assume this week we will get a final final version that we actually consider that would be voted on next wednesday i don't think we're going to change the version that you're going to be looking at i think that you will be um hearing from janet about what her suggestions are and hearing from the building commissioner about what his thoughts are on janet's suggestions and then you can change the wording next wednesday i don't think we're going to change anything between now okay that's good to know all right so we'll watch our emails thank you janet and um we should all read this closely and and give it some thought and we will have presentations next wednesday mr morr will actually formally um describe it again on that kind of thing so i don't see any other hands are there any other questions at this time heads up you want to give chris or anything all right i don't see any so um we can move on to new business item b which something did get mailed out um today it's um yet another five law change that will be coming to us on um where are we june 17th um this went to town council and they talked about it i believe on monday uh from what i've heard it got favorably received and they're eager to move um so it's something that's been coming back and forth to us for over a year and a half um part of what's driving it is um the vote we have we require on a site plan review right now is um it's still it at five it never got adjusted from when we went from nine members to seven members so um that needs to be adjusted and then with further thought um it's just looking at best practices and um what other towns do uh how we can adjust so that site plan reviews which are sort of a by right compromise situation um can be um can be passed with a fair or just a majority rather than a super majority which is what we have right now with our five members so um it's pretty straightforward word it's not much to review it's just that one page not even a third of a page we got um so at this time it it won't be coming to us again it will be another joint hearing on the 17th but if i'll be looking for hands for any questions or comments or anything we want to ask chris to look into or anything like that um may i say something yeah please do really did come to us from um the crc mm-hmm and they asked us to um hold a public hearing on it yes and they have brought it to town council um that uh were in favor in general favor of it and are um waiting to receive it after the joint hearing so um if there's questions i'm going to wreck i think janet's hand's still up so i think she i'm going to skip janet for the moment i'll go to david and then if janet's hand is still up i'll go to her and whoever else david yes hi thank you i i support this um revised amendment however i'm a little concerned that i i don't think it there i think there's further work that needs to be done um although i would not want that to um delay approval of this amendment in section 11.4 of the current zoning bylaw as i understand it 11.41 and so they here's my point christine you asked christ this is my this would be my work for you i really regret saying that knowing that you're flat out um my understanding of 11.41 is that it allows appeal rights for site plan review decisions which are in 11.24 so subject to the section um within 30 days of a decision from the commissioner from the commissioner the building commissioner to issue a permit that's different than the appeal rights granted elsewhere in the zoning bylaw for special permits that's in section 10.1 and i think that they should be consistent i think that the any appeal of the site plan decision should have a consistent time frame to an appeal by a special permit granting authority which is refers to the statute in 48 i believe that's 20 days from the decision of the body not of the building commissioner and so i think there's further work that needs to be done on on on on making the site plan decision um process more consistent and effective in the working of the zoning bylaw overall what was that 10 point something the 10.1 10.1 point one i have to say this wasn't on my radar at all i know and and and i don't want to i don't want to flummox the drive to revise this site plan voting requirement which i believe is consistent is consistent and should be should be approved and so my intent is not to undermine this you know baby stepping towards uh amending the current zoning bylaw i'm just suggesting that i'm just saying that further work needs to be done in this because of the way in which the bylaws written that the decision for a site plan review and a potential appeal should be not longer than a potential appeal for a special permit is my basic point so there is no appeal period for a site plan review well what's 11.41 someone can appeal a site plan review odd infant item exactly so what what does that have to do with voting requirements if the planning board grants votes on and decides on a site plan review the the appeal to that decision should be limited by 40a which is consistent with section 10.1 as opposed to being odd infant item up to where the building commissioner issues permits i think that the the the site plan decision should be a reasonably definite point upon at which appeals can be made by aggrieved parties but it shouldn't be so indefinite that the uncertainty about being able to start a project is left till after the building commissioner issues permits chris i think your hands up is it no and i'm making and i i'm hoping i'm i i think i'm making sense chris but perhaps i'm not it's very late for me and this is long um meeting but but well if it's important to you david there there's i'm sure there's something to it chris could you look into this and let us know and maybe even have a conversation with mr levin steen to sort of find your conversation tomorrow might be the best thing because i'm not the best no i agree i totally agree analyze you know and again this is not to my comment is not to challenge the intent to change the voting plan requirement as a consequence of the change of the membership number of the planning board my comment is intended to try to make more consistent the whole site plan and special permitting granting authority and the appeal rights that are that are granted under it and it seems to me that they're not that's all thank you okay so you two continue this and then if there's something to bring back to us please do thank you david um i'm going to call on janet and then i see doug's hand up i have a quick question about this um partly after the um the seminar i just attended under this language if if the planning board only had four people voting on the site plan review the majority would be three and are people comfortable with that like that do are people thinking um it's a majority decision but we want at least four members is that because i that that seminar got me thinking about how small a majority decision could be so i that's just my so if the answer is yes it could just be three people that that affects my thinking it could be three and the thing to remember is that this is site plan review not a special permit um and i can't even remember the last time we've only had four members at a meeting and chris as the chair um and chris as director we make huge efforts to try to keep big votes like we had an spr last week on the three season porch you know i would have been okay with three of us deeming that okay and passing it um but for things like buildings and such like that they usually take many many meetings to ever get to the point of a final vote and usually the chair in my experience that we make a tremendous effort to make it on a meeting that we would have as many members as possible if not seven six at a minimum you know um so i'm just looking over the last five years just general practices too how how it works but yes you're right in in essence it could be three only but sometimes i think that's just fine let them build the three season porch um the other thing i just wanted to add is i asked this question on the planner's listserv about what towns had you know the super majority for site plan review and some towns did and they the only problem they occasionally found with it was an issue of having a quorum but they they didn't see much difference and they also had you know um you know it seemed like there was often an agreement on the board and stuff like that so they didn't see a problem with maintaining it i just wanted to pass that information okay thank you uh dug i think you're out there yeah i'm out here um having spent most much of this evening talking about the process on a flow chart for zoning bylaw amendments i guess i'm a little surprised to see this just suddenly pop up and here that crc is going to recommend this to the town media to town council are we already uh are we being consistent with the flow chart as we just discussed it or are we already running amok thank you um so this is a long history this has been out there for over a year and a half um and it was set to move i knew of it before covid so what happened is covid happened and there's a lot of stuff that sort of including the process that flow chart you saw um a lot of things have been held up and bottlenecked up and this is part of the reason why we have so much coming on our plate right now because things are starting to move and it's built up over months so um and people have been aware of this having to be adjusted since since right after the charter was finalized because part of this is you know something that at the time they didn't adjust even though it's just flat numbers um they didn't want to touch numbers and keep it really clean easy when they did the bylaw review and they you know changing out like select board with town council and that kind of thing so this actually been around for a while but um i think it shows that town council and crc now that there's a process and they have you know they're gonna have elections coming up a year from this fall i think there's a lot of you know the politics of it they want to get some things moving and and start making changes so i think this is just the beginning of a lot of things that are going to be coming to us chris i don't know if you have anything to add um janet your hand still up do you have another question or no okay um anyone else have any questions right now they want to ask um i do see mandy joe is there i don't know if you're even listening to us mandy joe but if you could just confirm that this went to i believe it's came out of crc but it went to town council for discussion i think this week um yeah i see your hand great if you could just confirm what happened this week so yeah um to answer doug's question um you could consider this coming in on the third box of the chart at um my request as a counselor if you want to think of it that way um it was brought to my attention at some point that this number um probably should have been modified and this whole bylaw should have been looked at at the time of bylaw review and so as a counselor i wanted to move it forward um to to do that so i had requested a bunch of things um and one of that was um the council refer it for hearing and everything and and hearing and recommendation um so so i would say it started on the third box of the flow chart that we talked about earlier um it has had a very brief hearing not and i don't even want to use the word hearing a very brief discussion in crc um crc has not made any recommendations at this point that discussion was based on a packet materials um that were in the actual planning board packet for the planning board meeting in march that was cancelled um it is the best way to describe it when covid hit um and their crc briefly briefly briefly talked about options um and and kind of favored a majority vote option at monday's council meeting when it was on the agenda for referral it was actually on the agenda on the consent part of the agenda and one counselor removed it from consent because that counselor wanted to ask a question and make a comment um and so before referral there was a very brief discussion at the council meeting on this and the two counselors that spoke at that meeting also expressed favorability for this amendment but again the council has not had a full discussion it generally would wait until after hearing for the full discussion and crc's policy and align with the flow chart that was mentioned is to not vote at all or make any recommendations until after public hearings um and also i i hope that answers a couple of questions that i heard yeah that's good thank you that clarifies we'll see you next week um i see michael's hand out yes is are we having a joint public hearing on this issue next week no on the 17th on the but it's a notice this have to happen and i'll get back on the flow chart but this is going to be a joint meeting a public meeting of the crc and the planning board yep okay hopefully we'll be really good at it by the 17th it's been advertised already okay thanks chris for that um are there any other questions if not um we'll move on to um the next topic i don't see any hands so chris will move on to item seven form a and our subdivision applications and i know we have some we have some in our packet if you dig towards the back there's two of them so let's see um do you want to start pan which one do you want to start with pan the one on harlow drive yeah i believe i have harlow drive first yes thank you so um dana corson owns both of these properties the property that's outlined in yellow and the property that's outlined in turquoise and he would like to combine them into one parcel and i think we have do we have a picture of the um a and r no we don't have the actual application no but it but it was in their yeah the front page oh it was okay right yeah it doesn't say much but it's there right which is why i didn't put it on here all right so um anyway it's really just a combination of the yellow lot and the turquoise lot and um there's no reason to think that subdivision control would be needed here um this really isn't the creation of a subdivision it's got more than the correct amount of frontage for this um for this uh for the r and zoning district and more than the correct amount of lot area so will you authorize um christine gray mullin to sign this on behalf of the planning board yes yes um you can click your hands on if a majority of oh yes i don't know how but david's there twice that's amazing um he's been there the whole time at both times i'm working on fixing the vote i'm more i'm perfecting it for november mr mr marshall has a question yes doug yeah the uh application form says the proposal is going from an existing number of four lots to a proposed number of two lots and i don't understand that especially the way chris described it well this must have been written by um the applicant i don't know why they did that um it's really well there were three lots originally you can see where the purple line is and so the turquoise lot used to be two lots and it was combined a while ago um so now they're really going from two lots to one lot so i don't know why there's two lots that doesn't how many acres is it how many acres um that's a good question like i don't have my i don't have the ability to get into gis right now but it's bigger than what was previously allowed to have a house on it i think that there was some um kind of a right of way you can see between the purple line and the turquoise line to the east there was some type of right of way in there and eventually um the person who owns the yellow lot acquired half of it and the other half went to the fellow on the east um so i can circulate a copy of the anr the actual anr plan to you tomorrow if that would help and then you can let me know whether you would authorize christine to sign it or you can just authorize her now i can't really tell you exactly how much acreage there is there i'm going to guess probably 30 000 square feet these lots are small the frontage lots are small is uh is that turquoise lot a buildable flag lot at the way it stands now no no i don't think it could contain the building circle again i'm not sure of that but it doesn't i doubt it could right and are there two dwelling units on the on the yellow lot or is that a dwelling unit and a garage it's a dwelling unit and a garage yeah i think we should one acre total i think we should just let this it's so it's one acre combining the two lots yes yeah i'm good i'm good okay i'm good um i see david or dug your hands up do you up and then david and nope he's gone david you got a question on the no i'm sorry he's gone okay so the hands are up i think we're good with it so um i still haven't signed the one um that we last okay because we were waiting for the town engineer to finish something so that one's i'll sign tomorrow and this one and now we have a third one there's the third one everyone has to do with the ever source ever source wants to um purchase some property and this doesn't show the a and r e form so sorry uh christ we didn't get those electronically sorry is this the same parcel that the town declined the purchase it looks to be it's all a it's all a property is that right yeah it looks to me like it is yeah that two a seven and yeah it really does it's got the access between the wetlands in the southwest corner and then the small buildable area shaded in the middle yep i agree pam we don't have the electronic copy of this no i'm sorry oh gosh so we do we have no plan of of the split that is proposed here right i don't know what i'm looking at no i don't either i mean i know what i'm what i should do i'm not looking at it now so i'm gonna have to send you um your electronic i'll have to somehow figure out how to scan or get it from the surveyor um the survey plan and i might have can we conduct this by email or can't does this need to wait till our meeting next week well it could wait till the meeting next can we move it to next next week on the 10th i mean it'll only take a few minutes i think we have the right stuff i move we postpone this to the next meeting anyone want to second that yep janet i saw her hand i'm good with that in 10th okay so i need to do a roll call or can we just roll this to the next no i think you can just put it on the next meeting okay good so you're good to sign harlow drive but not this one okay i'll sign two of them tomorrow i think i see you at noon um and we'll do the next one next the following week yeah are there uh item uh eight upcoming zba applications any of those pam nothing new great uh nine upcoming spps pr subs applications nope nothing new great move on to uh 10 planning board committees and liaison reports first i want to give a huge shout out to jack gem sick um he was asked by pv uh pc to be on their executive committee so that's very nice he's got more exciting meetings to go to though they're probably on zoom right now um but anyways that's a great honor it gives uh amherst a good place to be on the executive board and i know jack uh really likes the organization and is probably really excited about this so um jack do you have a report or anything you want to say no there hasn't been anything um you know recently but um i'll shout out yay yeah so that's it that's it they do monthly meetings whereas right now uh the general membership does quarterly meetings so anyway it's yeah i am i'm very interested in doing i i accepted so great so you'll have more to report in the future well congratulations from out of you thank you um the other i'll just ask anyone um you can just speak out or anybody else here have something to report on one of these yeah i do uh for the for cpac okay go ahead michael briefly um the cpac proposals uh with the exception of the library of uh record preservation uh were all approved by council last this week uh there were the cpac is meeting a zoom meeting again apparently next week to review their proposal of their recommendation relative to the library's proposal uh and there's some there's some need to reconsider it according to the chair so that's in process so a decision of vote will probably happen at that meeting i imagine so about what um the excuse me the issue is whether or not the one million five hundred thousand dollar request for the library which was subsequently reduced to one million uh which is earmarked for the uh historic preservation of the documents and the special collections uh material uh whether that is in fact legitimately a historic preservation request uh there's some controversy as to about that uh and that's the that's the issue the the cpac wants to resolve thank you looking forward to hearing how that outcome happens um so if there's no more committee or liaison reports uh i have no report of chair report of staff i'm ready to go to sleep yeah so i think we can finish this meeting it's 10 uh 20 did uh yes a third fifth everybody so uh that's nearly four hours we had a lot in here i'm so sorry there's we're just bogged up and we've got a lot to do but thank you everyone i appreciate it here see you next week bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye thank you amherst media i'm gonna stop the share and stop the recording you want to stop cloud record