 So welcome back to episode 126 and what we've snuck this one in because I think it's quite a good title and we might end up doing two podcasts on this a part one and a part two or a part three as well we don't know we're just going to go with it and see what happens but the topic is important psychotherapy books a review. Yes now I probably was more I don't know if I was more insistent on these podcasts on my own website bogcook.org and on the Manchester Institute of psychotherapy there's over a hundred reviews of psychotherapy books because I collect psychotherapy books like no one else in the world I think. I agree. I thought how can we sort of do all these podcasts which without reviewing at least some of the important psychotherapy books and then I thought well if we go down this road the next 40 podcasts are going to be on these types because I'll go through them. So we're just picking out the some if you like of what I and Jackie think are important books not necessarily from transaction analysis. In fact the two or three we're going to discussing here one of them which is one of my favourite books Staring to the Sun is by Irvin Yellow. In fact we could start with that as I've mentioned it. You can start with that one. I'm not ready so I'm completely at your mercy with this one Bob. Yeah but we can talk about the themes of the book. Yeah absolutely. You'll have lots of thoughts I think. So this book is I know off air you said Jackie that on order will be seven hours. Yeah. I only think it's about a hundred pages so I'm surprised to hear you say that because I've been listening to Harry Potter books recently. Yeah. Lots of The Stone and Order of the Phoenix and goodness knows what. They're very long books and they're more like 21 hours. So anybody likes books especially Harry Potter read them they're great much better than the films but let's get back to this. So a very important psychotherapy book which I think psychotherapists per se counselors per se should think about reading is a book which came out about 20 odd years ago by a very famous psychoanalyst psychotherapist. He calls himself he calls himself actually an existentialist psychotherapist. So even though he has a psychoanalytical background and a psychotherapy background he calls himself calls himself an existentialist. He's very very popular very well known throughout the world and especially in the United Kingdom and his name is Irvin Yellow. Y-A-L-O-M. He's 93 now and he still sees millions. That's amazing. Yeah and he's written many many books. His first book was called Love's Executioner about 40 years ago and what he takes is Viginette's from many of his clients' works and so he's somebody who wrote up notes after treatment successful treatment of clients. Now I always wish I had by the way I never really did. One of my supervisors I've been seeing for 15 years or so he writes notes up every session and he's 62 so he's seen many many clients and he's got records and records and records and Irvin Yellow did the same thing basically. So these Viginettes and tales are from the narratives of his clients. So his first book which I think must be 30 years ago which is called Love Executioner is a series of 10 or 11 of his clients which he talks about in a very skillful narrative way and very accessible for accounts of psychotherapy so people are interested in the world of psychotherapy and change to read. Yeah okay so he's written about 11 or 12 of these different types of books all on the same where he writes narrative tales and metaphors around the clients he's worked with. This book I think is about the fifth or sixth in and it's got a theme to it staring into the sun really means staring into oblivion. He doesn't call it staring into oblivion. That's my thinking about you know what he means by the title and if you think of the word existentialist it means the core themes of life which hit us at an existential level such as existential frightens me Bob. Well it's about existence. Yeah I think that's why it frightens me it's there's no right or wrong it's just. It is so it's core issues real core issues like hopelessness you know like loss you know real core issues of existence yeah like death anxiety like yeah these are core issues around existence not necessarily about you know how we get on in relationships or communication breakdowns they may lead to core existential issues of hopelessness and loss or death anxiety or whatever it is but when you call yourself an existentialist you're dealing with those core issues. And just a few that you've mentioned there about loss and grief and death and all those sorts of things they are topics that we will all come across at some point in our life. Always. Without a shadow of a doubt yeah. Yeah always and they may trigger off really deep issues around our own mortality our own our own existence on this planet. Yeah our issues around leaving this planet. So these issues can get triggered off in our life cycle. And often those feelings at an existential level are often always there under the surface even though we don't think about it they are there on our conscious level and may get triggered off by significant pivotal points in our own history. Yeah and I suppose for a lot of them because they are deep and meaningful questions we don't really want to go there. No no and what's interesting about this is I've always said this you know I've never smoked before smokers or people are not smokers they will know that on cigarette packets there's a sign which says you know these are damaging to your health. Now I'm not saying that should be on the front door of every psychotherapist or counsellor's office. What I am going to say is that often when we come in with certain issues like communication breakdowns or come in with issues around anxiety maybe as the person starts working on those issues they may be triggered off down layers to different parts of our psyche and psychological history which we may never thought about for ages. Yeah I mean you know that don't you know that when it comes in with X and they may be really the etiology of what they're talking about was way back in their history and they suddenly say well I don't know how I've started talking about this. Yeah I don't know where that's come from yeah. I don't know where that's come from and then it says well do you want would you like to explore this a bit more and suddenly they're exploring their sense of hopelessness from actually being a two or six year old or whatever we're talking about and remembering issues of when they were being defined or bullied and they felt hopeless we could go on couldn't we and if I had a you know a pound or even a 10p for every time a person said is that what you've just said there how did I get here a bit very rich about. Yeah absolutely I think it happens pretty much in every session I have no idea where that came from you know a client will say yeah. So in looking at this book carrying into the sun I think it's a lovely title. Yeah it's about it's really about I've said staying at oblivion what I mean by that is really you know centering or reflecting on issues of our mortality what happens next when we leave the planet anxiety which come up all the time which can be triggered by you know what I've just said loss or mortality issues because in this book he starts off talking about a central theme which is from his position that all of us from birth Harry echoes of anxiety with regards to leaving this planet or what he calls death anxiety which is generally there in what he might even want to call generalized anxiety I don't think he does because general anxiety is a DSM term but he's talking about that sitting beneath a lot of our issues if you want to believe that way is this echoes of anxiety to do with living and dying on this planet and they can get triggered off to a much more intense level through mortality issues yeah so I was reading this book so this is when I read it about eight or nine years ago I've just been into hospital until I I don't very rarely go into hospital by the way but it says about 1964 no sorry 19 about eight years ago sorry and it was for a rotary cuff injury which is really a very very small operation yeah um but I was reading the book after it and I think something was triggered inside me probably from that operation and I've been reflecting on my own mortality anyway which triggered off many vivid dreams and anxiety issues later on in my life we're now going back to about four years when I went into hospital for very serious heart surgery which was a very different ball game altogether I had more intense anxieties about existence so I think these crises in our life can trigger off anxiety issues which have been there for quite a long time and yellow and that's the theme of yellow's book yeah it's interesting I think the first time I thought about my own mortality was when I became a mum and I can remember I had this real strong fear that if I died they wouldn't remember me it wasn't about dying that that was the only fear that I am was that if I died when they were young they wouldn't remember who I am well it is about death isn't it yeah that your death and not being on this planet and have people xxx and but when I think about people having you know death anxiety I I think it then it's about how they're gonna die and I don't think that's the case a lot of the time is it well I think that's the cognitive right the cognitive that could be cognitive thinking if you explored underneath that though yeah so oh it was a therapist I mean yeah yeah that's interesting and what feelings do you feel as you think about this or you know what's happening in your body as you think about this I think you might get to different places yeah because it's a really big topic oh none of us know what happened on the other side so that's the thinking isn't it yeah you said and what are you feeling when you are thinking this yeah I get an answer like well if I really think about this I often get a sense of panic yeah well when I think about this I freeze and find myself my body's gone really stiff with fear or when I when you talk about what I feel you know I feel quite numb you know underneath the thinking yeah yeah it's often repressed feelings yes now also what Yellum does in this book which I think is really important for therapists and counsellors is a template or a treatment plan of how to work with people who express death anxieties interesting so there's a 10 point plan or I have many points yeah on how to work with people who present anxieties around loss or death not from just general presentations I mean not many people walking and saying look I have anxieties of death they might do I could either have walked into my therapist and said oh look this had this triple heart bypass and out of that has come panic and fear and death and etc but usually these anxieties which have been there since birth Yellum would argue may be triggered off by many other life crises as and you work underneath the surface you come to these feelings yeah he talks and he presents a chapter on how to work with this that's that's quite useful for a therapist to have in the toolbox anyway you know something to know how to work with that and and death many life crises I mean I was just thinking of it was in the paper talking about how you know two people's unexpected deaths for various reasons and how the the son who found and was coping with this and the anxiety and the panic attacks and the nightmares and the visions and here we are right into loss hopelessness lack of control yeah unpredictability yeah absolutely and to have a treatment plan like you like Yellum talks about is a useful toolbox isn't it it's useful to have in your toolbox yeah well the other thing I think like about Yellum it says readings are very accessible it's not long confuted psychiatric psychotherapy you know language if you like it's like really down to earth language George that's my sort of book then and there's quite a lot of metaphors yeah I know he talks about metaphors and he talks about clinical visionettes and examples but they're very accessible very very accessible good yeah I like the sound I like it I have actually downloaded it on audible then I'm going to listen to it because it just sounds really interesting yeah and the treatment plan is good yeah yeah so it's a book Irving Yellum Staring Into the Sun I can't remember when it was published I would imagine 15 and 20 years ago easily if you bought it on Irving's and it's in paperback so it's not going to be expensive but he is one of the foremost existentialist psychotherapists in the world and he's still alive and he's still seeing clients and if you want to then take another little book which I think you'd find interesting as a counselor psychotherapist or even if you're interested in what happens behind closed doors in the psychotherapy sessions his first book which is at least 30 years ago his exit loves executioner yeah I think you know for me personally if I find somebody that I can relate to or that I enjoy the way that they're writing I'm more likely to read more of the books you know when you're talking just his name and then saying he's an existential I kind of went into my thinking and think that's going to be way above my my own intellect but then when you're saying it's very down to earth and easily accessible and metaphors I've completely changed yeah really yeah I understand what you're saying existentialist psychotherapist is a long name but it simply means therapists who work with core existential issues of existence in this world but what's better about this guy better in the terms of accessibility is it's written very very down to earth normal language in inverted commas yeah not like a textbook for example no no it just from what you've said you know I downloaded it and I was thinking I'll I'll dip in and out but I think I might actually enjoy listening to that yeah I think well I think it's a book I certainly think counselling psychotherapist uh it's useful for and it said he's got a treatment plan on how to work with people who uncover uh or you know uncover anxieties and echoes of generalized anxiety to do with mortality issues and their time on this planet which can often be triggered by just being through a COVID pandemic for example yes yeah time and change yeah I could go on and on yeah I see quite a lot of clients and you know people that have health anxiety that kind of touches into that you know to me but I've not seen anybody really that has you know anxiety around their own mortality or death but lots of you've been those clients yeah I suspect come with the feeling out of control yeah yeah hopeless yeah fear yeah loss all these things trauma maybe post traumatic trauma due to xx and x that's that's why I'm talking about in existence issues yeah they may not term it death anxiety yeah but I think underneath it yeah I would argue that underneath it from what day we're born we're dying yeah and if you think about it that way it's straight it would be strange if the human condition there wasn't echoes of anxiety given where we're heading yeah I think that's what separates us from the animal kingdom isn't it really is that we kind of project forward we're not very good at being in the here and now who are always looking to the future or in the past so yeah it's it's there in all of us yeah that's my recommendation for a first book okay a bit deeper meaningful but staring into the sun by earlum yalom yeah earlum y a l o m okay great great second book which I know you know I know you know this book inside out but I could not mention it when we're talking about important psychotherapy books because you know I don't know any TA psychotherapist that probably hasn't got this book and people who are TA counselors don't have this book and I know just what you're going to do yay I couldn't do podcasts about book reviews with that I just mentioned TA today by Ian Stewart S-T-E-W-A-R-T and Van Joins first edition was 1989 but there's been many many editions I think the last edition was probably about 2016 but there's been a lot of editions on the way yes often called the transactional analysts bible I can see why I mind it's it's doggied and yeah it's really well used and I dip in and dip out I've never read it from cover to cover but I do dip in and dip out of this on a weekly basis I wouldn't say yeah so why would people read this obviously TA students would read this because of all it's a book which has got in it all the basic concepts and principles of transactionalist psychotherapy so that's obviously should be there for a TA student people who are interested in personality models or psychotherapy in general may be interested in this because transaction analysis in itself has a very accessible personality model and therefore it would be interesting for people to read TA counselors who perhaps there might be trained in another modality might find it interesting in terms of thinking about change and personality models and even techniques from a different way of thinking and it could add to a different dimension and how they might think about working with their clients so there's many reasons why I think it's an important book to read yeah yeah I've actually I have clients that have bought the book you know when I've been sharing because you know we both do do educative psychotherapy so I share a lot of TA stuff and they've asked what that book is and they've gone away and got it themselves yeah yeah yeah very good for clients to read it is primarily a textbook yeah so best to be unless you're doing essays and things like that I think you're on a TA course maybe but it's best to dip in and dip out and I think wouldn't read this type of book 200 pages from beginning to end just like that no be as I say dipping if your TA students often it's a major book the first years would have to buy and bring to weekends say on specific subjects so it's a student book in that sense it certainly isn't a book that you would just read from beginning to end because it's not that way no no but it is a good book it is jam packed and I know we've said this many times but there's lots of diagrams in it and I love a diagram it's got great diagrams and one thing I like about this book very much is that after each chapter it's got exercises that you can do yeah so whether it be on parent adult child model personality model development whether it be on contracts whether it's been games whether it's going to be on a script after each chapter there will be exercises for you to do regarding the chapter you've just read if you want to absolutely and there's a process to it I think as well you know the chapter before leads on to the one that follows and it kind of builds up as it goes along so you don't go into it and it's really heavy from the the first bit it kind of eases you into TA gently I think yeah I do like it and it's called an introduction to transactional analysis yeah it's not advanced no yeah no and it also has case studies as well as you go along so it's I think an accessible book it's it's taken over as the major textbook in TA and as we talk in 2023 even though there are many ever TA books it's still I think the major book that TA students would have and it'd be hard pushed to probably find a TA therapist that in the United Kingdom particularly that wouldn't have that book on their bookshelf yeah well it's on mine so so I wanted to just sort of bring that in because it's important anyway for TA people but I think it's important for all people who are interested in change and specifically counselors and therapists who are interested in different modalities and ways of thinking or they might have heard of transactional analysis and think well what is that and this isn't a bad book to read to just understand some of the introductory ways of thinking by the originator actually of transactional analysis who was Eric Byrne who was a psychiatrist was a psychotherapist and he died very unfortunately he had a double heart attack in 1960 on Carmel Beach in California so you know TA's got his roots quite a long way back but this is a book that goes through a lot of the concepts he talked about in a I think even a more accessible way than the original books that he wrote I've got a couple of the books that he wrote and I find them very difficult to read they're very 60-ish in the language and I need to read the paragraphs over a couple of times before I can take it in if that makes sense yeah so this is TA Today Ian Student Van Jones first edition 1989 but if you are going to buy it off the back of this review and I hope you do for lots of different reasons by the latest edition which I think might be about 2016 but I wouldn't swear to that yeah definitely one for the bookshelf and you know I know where we are both you know it's transactional analysis that we do but this podcast is about lots of different modalities of you know it's behind the therapy door so it's counselling and psychotherapy and lots of different modalities but I think everybody would get something from that book yeah so we've had two books one written by an existentialist psychotherapist and one by Ian Stewart and Van Jones two well-known TA Therapist I am now this isn't because I'm a TA therapist a third book but this is one of my do this in part two Bob oh we went out of time well we're kind of half an hour into it now so shall we okay we have three parts then because I've got we've got about eight books to go through so maybe the next three podcasts and take up on books okay okay so until next time Bob hang fire and we'll do another one do we tell them even oh are we going to surprise them or shall we tell them when the next two are you can tell them what the next two are because this next book I think is probably my favorite psychotherapy book of all time and this does not mean that it's your favorites or anybody else listening I'm sure you've all got your favorites uh that's fine but I this book is my favorite it's called counseling for toads it's a classic it's based on the wind in the willow stories which I read as a child yeah so that's what we'll start with okay okay until next time Bob okay see you soon you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode