 Not only did he have a relationship with the government, but he had a ball in the FBI In this world, you look out for number one People take that ball to the grave these guys are on the street. So they're involved in possibly All right, welcome back into the OG podcast. I'm Scott Bernstein a true crime journalist author Historian organized crime expert, etc. I'm with my partner Jimmy Guicholato I'm Jimmy Buccellano. I am the author of early organized crime in Detroit. I Research and write about organized crime. I was a faculty member at the Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Northern Arizona University, and I'm happy to be here co-hosting the podcast I want to give recognition to our producer senor a Roberto Boschane Anyhow, we are happy and fortunate to have a great guest today Larry Mesa He was a captain in the Colombo crime family The Colombo crime family is one of the five families in New York Some of the most colorful and violent gangsters in the history of New York organized crime Emerged from the Colombo family characters like Joe Colombo crazy Joe Gallo Greg the Grim Reaper Scarpa Carmine the snake Persico so a very colorful history Larry Mesa was a member of the family. He came up under the tutelage of Greg Scarpa So he's going to talk about that experience Greg Scarpa not only an notoriously violent criminal but Behind the scenes and informant for the FBI so a very interesting story here and then during the 1990s a Civil war erupted within the Colombo crime family and there were shootings gangland shootings on the streets of New York Number of individuals were killed and Larry was part of this So we're really happy to have him talk about his experiences in the New York Mafia on the OG podcast All right, so Larry there was a lot of news out of the mob Gangland landscape in New York over the last couple weeks. We had a what looked like possibly the start of a mob war But it turns out it was considerably less benign than that with the with the murder of Gambino Street boss under boss Frankie boy Cali it looks like now that it was just a kind of a mentally deranged love sick young man from Stanton Island that did it I've kind of been analogizing it maybe kind of to the John Lennon assassination of The mob world but kind of talk about when you when you first heard about Frankie boy Cali's murder Well, I saw it online the murder of a Frankie boy Uh, and I got a chuckle out of everybody trying to figure out how it was done Who did it? Of course Jean's name came up. I doubt that myself. I mean, I've been in prison not as long as him But the last thing on my mind in my first year of freedom is going to be to get involved Especially while you're still on the supervised release I really pretty much canceled him out in my own head in your referencing your referencing Jean Gotti Who is John Gotti's brother who had just recently come out of prison and when? The news broke of Cali's murder. There was a lot of people Speculating that that possibly this was a power grab on on the Gotti family's part Yeah, and the newspapers loved that I as you know, so they were probably Hoping it was him and there would be a walk But like I said, I didn't really jump to that conclusion I don't rule out that's there's a little more to it Because everybody starts writing that you need crash cars and this and that things have changed I mean, you know, we did a lot of work without crash cars and I wouldn't make that the deciding factor in ruling out the mob because what's in the crash car? It's still, you know, one of my first ones that I ever did and I put it in the book What I was involved in I had a ice pick somebody's tire and the next day's paper said man killed fixing flat tire So this was similar where they banged into his car to get him out now I'm not closing the door on that being a possibility that still was a setup Explain to the audience what a crash car is and how that would play a role in a mob hit and why that's kind of Typical ammo a crash car traditionally in the old days was always on on the scene if you had a talk it somewhere and You were the pull-up in one car the shooter gets out when he gets back in the car to drive away In case there's a cop a police car or anybody that wants to give chase The crash car which I did a few times has and I didn't have to crash into anybody is Expected to crash into a pursuing cop or you know, whatever anybody even a bystander So it was a safety factor, but if he has one that's been pretty much, you know, it's not always there I guess as we did plenty without remember that guy with the Spamone garden the Ellenby's Bermony garden that got killed a guy just came out of the shadow shot and took off And the other thing is the less people involved the less mouse to talk about it So a lot of guys are doing work on their own now. So well there you grew up in Brooklyn Um, I did kind of grew up in Brooklyn talk about your childhood and in the the neighborhood that you grew up in in Brooklyn and how The mob kind of maybe played a role in all the in all the old-school neighborhoods of the boroughs. Well, the neighborhood I grew up in School graves and it's between sheeps at bay and Bensonhurst. It's one of the you know, the More popular Brooklyn neighborhoods was very, you know, it was a very tight-knit community a lot of different ethnic backgrounds But basically where I was was mostly Italian and I grew up in a normal family went to school. I Went through high school. I did about a year in college. I was always working My dad was a vial attendant my mom worked on and off just you know banks and stuff as you know We got older, but there was always a mob presence There was social clubs all around as I grew up. I started noticing You know that the fancy cars and different things like that that you always read about And it was really prevalent in the neighborhood. You you you know, you couldn't walk too many blocks without a social club or cafe With a mob presence. Can you tell us about your first exposure to an actual made guy and How that that process of you Thinking about joining that that life. Well, my uncle Albert was a member to Colombo crime family for many many years So I had an uncle that was right there But he always kept us. I mean his son and myself and my brother kept us away from it Wasn't so I really never met a Made guy until I met Greg scarpa in the craziest way possible. Yeah, you just for the Audience to kind of get a better understanding of your background and who you are So you had a pretty unique entry point into the into the life a little bit tawdry Kind of maybe talk about that situation and how you met gred scarpa through his actually through his wife, right? Well, like I said, I had a Perfectly normal childhood. I had everything I could ask for from my parents. So there was I wasn't looking to join come up At one of my jobs. I met an old woman that was very attractive and Literally seduced me. I mean, I was only I wasn't even 18 when we met. She was probably about 32 33 And as the affair got more and more heated and tighter She decided it would be a good idea for me to meet her husband and Oh, and behold the husband winds up being Greg scarpa the grim reaper who is a heavyweight Street boss in the clumbel family So that was my entry into the life. This was the late late 70s. Oh, yes around 78 78 79 so without without that meeting without me having that job and delivering groceries to her house I Certainly would have been a fireman like my father or maybe more. Maybe it are your chief Unfortunately, I went in a different direction kind of describe Greg scarpa with what was he like as a gangster? And what was he like as a man? I hate to use the word, but he was likable people liked him because he had a You know a very charming way of speaking to people and always had a good sense of humor He was likable, but as you got to know him you saw the the greedy part the treacherous part of him, but he was a fear of ice cold killer and probably the most murderous Gangster You know right up there without capone. I mean There's not too many words to describe his vicious He seemed I mean from reading about him and studying in me. He seemed to kind of get some type of titillation from violence like it was He like he fed off of the the kind of the energy that came from being a murderer Yeah, you know what you could like in that too and I said to my partner Jimmy a few times when we would get the Butterflies in our stomach It was like before a game a big game when you were playing football in high school Your adrenaline started going that's how he got he got very Excited about doing work. He wanted to make sure Everybody knew it was him which was always peculiar but later on we found out why it didn't matter to him that they know But he was very he once said he loved the smell of gun gun smoke or gunfire gunpowder You know, so he was definitely definitely The team captain he loved what he was doing. He could bottle that that sent he'd he'd marketed it as a as a cologne Greg's Greg's car for special That's funny, you know, so maybe we should do make you smell like gunpowder. No, he would spray it in the car You know how we hang on yeah things like that. He would hang that You also love the smell of money and get the ink on his fingers So he was very flamboyant about that stuff Not in a John Guy way, but amongst us very you know with puff his chest out about things like that He would show me the ink on his hands when he was counting money One time he I asked him how much money you have I was when I got really close to him He told me if I piled my money up in one column to the sky You point to the top and jump you die So that's a lot of money to pile up So so as Greg takes you under his Wings so to speak and you have an uncle who's part of the Colombo family and and as you're beginning this process of Joining the organization yourself. Do you think about as as someone who is going to be a made member? Do you think about the history of the family and its totality because some of the some of the most important? Mafia figures in the history of New York organized crime come out of the Colombo family Joey Gallo Joe Colombo Joe Profacci Carmine I mean do you think about Carmine Persico? Does that matter to a guy like you or is that just for us criminologists aren't as a criminologist? I'm impressed with that pedigree that lineage right that lineage But do you think about that as a guy who's actually going to live the life? Well, you know all of the families had Prominent type of names There's always somebody that rises to the top and all the guys you mentioned had their prime the limelight Most it doesn't last long unfortunately, and I learned that too late But growing up these guys were folklore almost they were legends so You know, I never thought I would be like them in any way I really the first one to Propose me was Linda Linda wanted me to be a good fella Then she convinced Greg that I would be good and he took me in closer and closer and That's when I would start hearing about, you know, these guys like, you know, Scaffi and and Junior and But you know Greg himself I would learn more about him Joe Gallo I heard plenty of stories from Greg about You know because they went through wars on opposite sides He stayed with Profaci and Perceco back in the day and when they were fighting Gallo the Gallo brothers So they were like a history of our family But we it seems like the Columbus were always at war. There was smallest family number-wise Didn't mean they were Respected as much if not more than all the other families at times Especially to the 70s But those guys were like legends like you as you know, Junior just passed away and there's still Turmoil around that they're saying they killed him in there. They didn't give him help. You just give the listeners some context so the Colombo family In addition to being one of the smaller families and being one of the families that's produced some of the most colorful characters in the mob It's also been one of the most destabilized mob or goddess In New York City over the last 50 60 years There's been three mob wars Larry was involved in in the most recent one which was in the 1990s but there was a mob war in the early 60s and then there was a mob war in the Early to mid 70s the long-time boss of the Colombo family was a guy named Carmine Perceco his friends called him junior his enemies called him the snake and Perceco was the longest reigning New York Mafia Don as of about two weeks ago when he passed away in prison He'd been running the family from behind bars since the 1980s Larry kind of talk about the state of the Colombo clan When you started to Be on the fringes of the group and then kind of work your way Deeper into the inner circles of the Scarper crew. So that would have been the early 80s Kind, yeah very late 70s early. Yeah discuss the state of the family. Yeah, get a you know getting closer to Greg and close to that You know to the Colombo family He would be he would take me around to lots of different places different meetings There was a time, you know when junior was only on the street junior Perceco for about two years if that long in my whole tenure But one time I had to take him To junior's club. I didn't go in I stayed outside when he went into talk to him And I remember when he came out and he started talking and saying some things one of the comments He made to me was they don't go on the snake for nothing. So even his friends called him the snake It's funny, but not to his face. Right. Yeah, and the family was very we were very tight and powerful but with that I Learned the Colombo family kills their own a lot more and quicker than most of the other families And I think that's why there was always tension. There's always bodies turning up bodies disappearing and always You know and that's pretty much how he held it so long I think he kept the Machiavelli thing going, you know kept all divide and conquer Because there was you know Like you said since the 50s. There's always been troubles Even Joe Colombo we forget that when he got shot, you know, it wasn't a war, but you know Somebody had an axe to grind obviously and they say it was Joe gala great always told me it was the government because after Joe Colombo was shot Chubby one of who was good who was Joe Colombo's bodyguard then killed The shooter got him right on the spot right He was Practically escorted away and Greg saw this happening. He said he this guy was Rushed out of there, you know, they were cops all around they could have grabbed him They let him go and a few days later. He got straightened out chubby as a reward for that heroic act Because he wasn't a good fellow even though he was his bodyguard at the turn I believe it was chubby Rosillo was the name of the guy we're talking about Chubby, you know, I don't know was last night. Yeah, that was the last time. Yeah, so yep. I could use your help Did Greg ever comment on his feelings about Joe Colombo? Attracting headlines and being this Italian civil rights activists because we know that some of the other families Especially the Gambino's do not like the not just to give a little more context Joe Colombo was the godfather of the Colombo crime family that took his name from the early to mid 60s until he was for all intents and purposes assassinated at a Italian Pride Day rally in in New York City in 1971 yeah, it was a Columbus circle in Manhattan What happened that was the really the pinnacle of his Italian American Club Uh, or movement. Yeah, he came in at he became an activist Yes, because his son had problems with the FBI So he thought this was the way to fight them to say it was all You know made up stuff and they just Prejudice against Italians. Yeah prejudice exactly and what happened at the beginning he had a lot of Wise guys rallying around him including Greg But as it became bigger and bigger He was asked to put somebody else up front maybe an actor or anybody but him and he Refused then they was he's going on talk shows too like he was like going on television talking about this Yeah, he exactly he was too. He was too much in the limelight and he was a known mob boss So everybody knew the name. I mean my say everybody I mean anybody who needs to know no sure he is doing that and Then he was Requested in a strong way to stop and he still didn't he was adamant. He was a boss and he was gonna do what he wanted so ultimately He got killed and all the you know all the conspiracy theories, but Greg told me it was the government that was his exact words to me So junior Persico took over for Joe Colombo. He was in and out of prison quite a bit at that time and Really was only on the street for a handful of years in the 70s and in early 80s then eventually Got brought down in what was known as the commission case where they brought down the five leaders of the of the five families in New York City so now the Colombo family at that point started to fracture and You had people that were loyal to Persico who was gonna have to serve the rest of his life behind bars, but was insistent on leading the family and and using blood family members and loyalists as as buffers in fronts and then you had a group an offshoot group that eventually became an insurgents led by a Kapo named little Vic arena that opposed the persico the persico's reign from behind bars and Kind of talk about the the the foundation that was laid for this unrest that eventually You know bubbled over in the 90s, but I'm guessing in in the late 80s. You could see some of the moving parts Setting up to what eventually happened in the 90s. Well it in the middle 80s or an 86 87 Vicarina was Put in the acting boss position by junior person because he was gonna be gone for through, you know life He put him there and I remember Greg telling me at one point that he didn't put a strong enough guy there Vic wasn't a real street dog or a tough guy In the in the way of a guy like Greg was Junior So ultimately he was able to have his strings pulled there's a lot more to how the war started First of all first of all Junior is a boss until he decides to step down or get voted out unanimously That possibility is minute because once you become a boss you put your closest friends Family sons brothers in important positions So they're not all gonna turn against you So that's not likely to happen, but Vic Being asked by other prominent members of the family and other families like John Gotti who was a catalyst Wanted Vic to be the official boss for their own selfish reasons So he's told Just have all your captains vote him out He asks his consul here at the time it was Jimmy Angelina To approach all the captains Which he does And I was there directly next to Greg when he was talking to Jimmy Angelina and Jimmy asked him Meaning Greg where he would stand if Vic wants all the capos to vote him out Greg just got back from being very very sick as we all know he he ground up with the age Virus and all kinds of things are health issues So he told Jimmy That he is semi-retired until his health gets better and wherever the chips fall he'll fall Once we got back in the car I asked Greg Why didn't you tell him pick a site? Why didn't you declare yourself? I was surprised knowing Greg all these years that he didn't declare himself He explained to me he didn't know who Jimmy was speaking for If he was speaking for junior Vic will have him killed a junior would have him killed if he goes on pick site And vice versa if he says okay else and I'm staying with junior Vic is going to tell Jimmy Greg's got to go so he was in a very precarious situation And then Jimmy Angelina ends up being killed uh allegedly by vicarina. That's my next point. Uh Jimmy Angelina now disappears Okay, nobody knows where he is for weeks and weeks and weeks Of course we find out he's gone now He brings Carmine Cessa Who he knows is close to Greg The guy that you need to have on your side in the family And makes him the consul yet He asks Carmine to do the same thing go to the capos go to break Soon as Carmine came to Greg Greg busted out less. He's sick. He's going to do the same thing to you So now Carmine gets paranoid Cessa and He feels he's going to be killed. So he goes after Vic first Well, doesn't he also doesn't didn't Carmine Cessa then at that point go to the persicoes and tell them what was going on Um, I don't know for sure. I mean he was talking to teddy persico And senior teddy persico senior and teddy persico senior was a very simple minded guy So a lot of times messages didn't get sent around the right way So he very well might have said something to teddy But by the time teddy brought it to junior it could have come out differently So i'm not going to go into that because I don't have first-hand knowledge of it But I was there when he came to ask Greg for help and Greg just thought it was hysterical That he was going to do this all over again Uh, so again, that's really what started the war On my now went after uh, Vic I don't know the you know, some of the listeners that that we have aren't always going to be Mob aficionados or whatnot, but I think it's important to note that you know There there are a ton of politics involved in running a crime family Um, and and it's not just uh, you know guys getting together and playing cards and and uh, you know, uh Robin uh hijacking trucks and and and dealing drugs there's a lot of um diplomacy that's involved in it and a lot of Buffering and placating and and when it doesn't go right you you have the situation that that you had um, you know in the columbos and You have a an all-out street war erupt in new york city for up to two years that you were you know You were smack dab in the middle of kind of talk about when things really started to pop off I know that um Greg himself and I believe his his daughter and granddaughter Survived an assassination attempt, which then kind of ramped up the violence that that had already started to to get going Yeah, once uh karma made his move, uh on vic, uh They They became now went from a cold war, you know of two sides sort of forming to a shooting war and ultimately greg was the first uh Target, but it was a botched attempt and even Though greg insisted at that point that we come back and make a move Carmine was still trying to use diplomacy and you just touched on that There is an administration with all the families so they're Each and every family has a representative that would be on the peace committee to try to keep us from going to war but uh As time went by Our own side just kept cracking so there was no through administration anymore. We had two separate families within the family Uh, and that's why you know vic had to make a move now. So he went after greg Once he failed we wanted to come back But we're told only a top guy. We can only go after vic Uh other guys like oloy Uh, Joe scopo who was the underboss mickey black Then another one of our guys gets killed Hank, thank the bank. So Hank the bank's murrah just again for for listeners. Um, the first casualty in the Uh, what was known as the colombo mob war of the 90s was henry hank the bank's murrah Um, who I believe was killed in front of a duncan doughnuts in brooklyn Um, uh in chief said bank. Yes. He was killed. Uh, and that was a night. That was in late 91. I believe Um, no, it would have been that late because I I Think well, don't hold me to that because I got yeah, I got an oveb to present in 90 the end of 91 So I would say in maybe 90, but you you probably know, I'm looking at it says november 24 91 It was 91, huh? Okay. So then I must have went in in 92 The pretty or something. Uh, anyway, uh, well if you got it there that that's right My time frame is a little off. It's been a while back And sometimes you try to put it out of your head. I saw it as it is But yeah, hank was He was with another guy. I think it was louis black the guy on our side that They were gonna try to get an apartment in sheep said bay, you know, like going through mattresses at different places around the city louis ran over to a payphone To call the realtor to let him know he was there and that's when hank, uh You got killed and it I get to came out somewhere along the way and I hate to say it like that I wasn't there to see it But they say that it was chicky Uh, the martino was on the right sentence now and who was on wild bill side Who was on vick side and he was a heavyweight. Uh, it does get confusing with all the names. I understand that But hank was the one that would fall asleep anywhere And that sleep apnea disease or whatever it is and he fell asleep. It's narcolepsy Yes, yeah, that's the word And so he was an easy target That was just to give further context So the war breaks out carmine persico's in prison and and greg scarpa kind of becomes his His muscle on the street leading the war on the other side Larry just referenced wild bill. Uh, you had a guy named William wild bill katolo who became arena's Main muscle on the street. So they were uh, kind of counterparts in that regard where Greg scarpa was was the muscle for for persico and and wild bill was the muscle for for arena. Would that be accurate Very accurate and it was uh, there was a comment made by wild bill wants two vick arena Let me take care of brooklyn meaning greg So meaning let me kill him Yes, right. Yes, because he wanted a uh, he was a very prominent brooklyn And greg was the other real prominent guy in brooklyn because on 11th avenue persico's worked on so it wasn't that same prominence Uh in downtown, he had the rusos and he was still uh, you know, a heavyweight team there The rusos were cousins of of carmine persico, right? Yes, and that goes to what I said before they all were made captains uh, very young ages Because they were blood relatives and they're not going to turn on their uncle You know, well in rusos son isn't going to turn on the persico's obviously and carmine's cousin the the kind of the The patriarch of the rusoclan Andrew andy mush rusos has been one of carmine's Acting bosses is best friends with james con sonny corleone himself. Yes. Yep. He came into a bunch of trials Which is a another funny anecdote Maybe for another tone. So now If the hank gets killed carmine literally comes to the house crying. I mean he was pretty tight with hank and uh We insist That it's open season Basically greg but at that point I agreed and I was tired being hunted And knowing that these guys were looking for us So I was 100% behind greg uh when he said it's open season I was looking forward to protected myself and letting them know not going to be an easy target So, uh, then we just went out every single day driving Around the whole city Looking at various, uh Social clubs you're stalking your prey Yes, we you know, we knew the social clubs on ebony. You we knew this You know the cafe on em which i spoke about was we went to wild bills clubs several times Uh, he wasn't you know there anymore knowing that there was going to be retaliations Uh, obviously vicarina was deep in hiding Joe wavley popped up a few times at his clubs. We had some shootout with him With him, uh And ultimately the left threw that we hit him pretty good although he lived he was very lucky There was a an ambulance on coffee break right around the block So when he got shot he was getting a transfusion within minutes And they kept them alive You guys also, uh Ended up taking out a guy that was uh hanging christmas lights right vinny venus Yes, that was uh after With the first attempt we uh Had was on uh funsy dembrosio He's a long time made guy in the family who for some well he had his reasons, uh They all had their reasons usually money or a vendetta His brother had gotten killed years ago and I guess Uh, he had that vendetta against persico His brother was sally d a real real tough guy from the old days One of my all these best friends so We targeted that club and we shot it onsy But we wound up hitting joe t who's mickey blacks nephew and Tommy demado who was with the genovese family So that could have caused a lot of problems, but it didn't uh because he should have been there Uh his own boss the chin told him that don't be hanging out in his clubs. He told all his men that So greg told karma and the same thing. He said he should have been there. We did nothing wrong And ultimately there was no problem with the other family uh But that was just uh a weak answer, but at least they knew we were shooting About a week later, uh, we see veni venus Who is a wild bill's first cousin vincent from sorrow who went by the nickname veni venus just for the listeners Yes, yes, and uh He drove by my pool room after the attempt on greg but some of my guys were in front of Uh, you know the pool waiting for us to come And he flashes us the middle finger Because he was on the scene we found out later. He was one of the crash cars So after the shooting he thought it was successful. He drove off or he was just wanted a extra cars around or whatever Uh There was a big plan they had they had a truck to block them in they had a van You know to to pull up behind them and that's where you had mentioned Uh, the daughter was they all left the house together that day And these guys really should have called it off But they shot with the with the girl in between Uh with a baby in the car. So that wasn't a good thing and uh, anyway We come we were driving around these different areas looking and jimmy takes it was my partner Takes her right to go a different direction to get back to the pool room because he avoids the lights And it takes us past Where we see veni venus's big black lincoln And he's hanging his christmas lights So we had a a car behind us the whole way But the car that was behind us went up straight on to the pool room. We came back around the block And uh, greg just put the rifle out the window Uh, that's what we were all going to get out. He says none and I'll do it right from here He opens the window puts the rifle out And he hit some uh one time right You know behind he had a shot was incredible guy went right down Uh, jimmy was about to drive away. He was told to stop and greg put two more of them from you know, uh, Maybe 20 feet away with a rifle And that was now uh sent pretty much a strong message back to them So now it became who can get who We just kept driving around we heard about another guy of ours black sand getting killed He was a dinosaur in the family. He was probably 85 or 86 Uh, they killed him in a social club, I think Yes, they went to social club. Got him again. Chicky's name came up. I don't know if you're sure it was him But somebody said they saw him the last time greg and I saw it uh black sand We would go in a lot Uh, greg was tight with him because they both got made the same day back in the 60s, whatever it was 50s I don't even know. Uh, but he was that old black sand And we told him he's staying in his club. Why don't you you know Keep the place closed for a while He reaches into his draw. I'll never forget it. He could hardly pick up the gun He's let him come in here You know, he was trying to press us that he was ready and easy. He's not gonna run from anybody Soon after he got killed Uh, it wasn't quick enough on the draw. No, no, I don't even think he he had any chance You know, it becomes stormy. It's you know, unfortunately they hit his girlfriend too. She didn't die, but uh It became a pattern for for their side getting innocent people hurt and the kid in the bagel store was an infamous thing that happened Uh and disgusting They killed an infant kid that had nothing to do with the war Uh, they shot at one of our guys sat Larry Uh in the middle of a busy street where people were getting sprayed and Some got run over You know in the mayhem afterwards So it got floppy and that's I guess when you know the feds really got involved in the task force But there was like killings back and forth and attempts back and forth and then ultimately, you know, the nicky black thing uh He had sent the message and he was now Vicks consul here because Carmine was you know on the other side uh, we Went uh to the other families with our administration and said this is the family. They were still trying to do it. So he made uh Nicky black his consul. Yeah, and that's nicky black grancio Uh, and and he was murdered in a uh, a pretty brazen fashion And it's probably the most controversial gangland slain of the war because it's alleged that Greg scarpa's relationship with the fbi, which we'll get into in a second um Tipped him off to uh, where where grancio was was well a few days earlier Uh, maybe a couple of days earlier. Nicky black sends a message to my uncle out that I should come over to their side or he's gonna kill me He thought if I came over and jimmy came over and a few of Greg's crew came over It would be easier. It was weak and Greg and he was right I mean Greg was you know old and you know pretty frail at this time without us guys around him He would have been you know, uh What he once was so We made him on a born target after that and we were lucky in quotes That he showed up that day that we were doing our own little surveillance Uh, and we started using that word because we were uh, we had a little fake siren in the window We had you know coffee cups in the window. We had baseball hats on we wanted to look like That's what we were you know police doing surveillance and uh We had a scanner And we had a shoe phone the one of those old big I call it a shoe phone to this day. You know what i'm talking about, but it's like the stock broker Yeah, the zack morse the zack morse phone for the for the youngins Yeah, so and he was on that constantly. So you know, he he had He was getting information at the time. We thought it was somebody on the other side Later on as you just said we'll talk about it. Uh, the truth came out We did get several phone calls. We had the the scanner. So we knew where they were all times uh But he he did he pulled up and we stalked him to use that word again followed him around as he drove off he pulled over to Uh, get an envelope from I guess one of his guys under him and As he did we pulled up right alongside of him and he To this day, I I I believe he thought we were cops pulling up because We would never let any car pull up near us. We left space between us at red lights Jimmy had the left mirror. Greg had the right mirror. I was always looking around Nobody was going to sneak up on us. So I don't know how this guy didn't turn I Literally had my whole body out the window got within an inch of him and he never turned He was probably telling his nephew or something the law is pulling up. You know, it was like sort of stiff And uh, and we blasted him uh And it was it that was a Sand shock waves around the family that somebody that high up in on big side was able to get So if I can jump in here one of the more controversial elements of the story is the fact that Scarpa ironically was an fbi Informant and and he's receiving intel from specifically. I believe it's lin davecchio was the fbi A case agent there and um, would you say that? davecchio was also Protecting or shielding greg scarpa from prosecution from other government agencies or agents absolutely And one thing I saw from a forensic person uh, a girl Showed me official documents that jimmy and I were listed as the street informants To protect greg status. Wow. So yeah, and I saw the paperwork. Okay They were going that far to protect him That they jeopardize us we could have got if that would have leaked out I mean our own side would have to kill us Right, it's it seems remarkable to me that that story Has not generated the same type of publicity that the weddie bulger boston fbi scandal well It kills me and there's so many things like the uh, that I I don't understand how they were swept under the carpet when I told them we had the secret Frequency that only the task force and the fbi had but we had it. So we were listening to them follow us We were listening to them follow our enemies We knew when where we're all where they were at all times and who they were following So that was helping us find our enemies So I gave them that information nobody either side the defendants or The government really pursued that I gave them the records of The the the big phone that we had and if you remember back in those days every phone call was itemized So they're asking me was he calling the vecchio or you know who he called I gave them that list They can find out very easily who greg was calling or who was calling him Neither side ever Demanded that information. Where'd that happen to that phone list? So they went above and beyond to protect this guy uh, and the funny thing is you know The prosecutor out there now weisman is under can't screw me right now He was like one of the The spearheads of this whole thing Now during this whole war Greg scarp was also dying of AIDS, which is another kind of soap opera-esque Strand of this entire story Can you kind of just very quickly recap how he Encountered the virus and then how it played a role and kind of maybe him You know feeling like you know, he was dying Anyway, you might as well go out in a place of glory And did you know that or did was he always he always kept it under the guise of cancer No, I knew he had it. He told me sat me down one day and told me He wanted me to be sure that I was safe and anything like that and uh Uh, how it had happened through the blood transfusion and obviously he has to abstain now and whatever Uh, although we were you know, Linda and I were long time finished by then uh But he's still I guess at a courtesy or whatever you want to call it. He wanted to let me know so No, I knew that he had that and then little by little his family members started knowing Uh And he got it, uh, you know after I I said before his health ailments would happen He used to pop aspirins Like six a day without just eating them without Water without a glass of milk was not just just eating them and they were literally burnt holes in his stomach So he had these bleeding ulcers And he goes in for an operation And uh, ultimately the doctor that does it just came off an operation and he wasn't really prepared and and they They wound up with water Left, uh, arteries hanging and stuff. So It only got worse. He his whole stomach was full with blood They had to have like 10 emergency operations to save him. So he needed blood All the men came in and women that were close and we all came to give blood He insisted it had to be from us because he he was comfortable with that Uh, he wasn't comfortable with the hospital's blood and they tried to tell him we screen it and all of this He insisted one of our guys paulie paul melie is a weightlifter And he used to use a needle for testosterone Obviously it comes out that he shared that needle with others and winds up with the hiv what he aids His blood is the one that matches So you can go a lot of different directions with that was it the fine intervention was You know what you got common for being the way you were but the one person was paul and he gets that blood so yeah, the war he Was getting worse and worse Both mentally and physically he's losing weight to you know by the end of the war. He was down to like a hundred pounds Right. This was the guy that at one point was a a strapping 220 220. Yeah 230 but solid not a fat too. I mean a solid solid man Uh, but yeah, he became very very frail and skinny, but then it started getting his head to where He uh had the dementia setting in so his decisions weren't good and I just get an argument with him linda Uh, other members now as I was able to talk to everybody at this point Uh, that it was getting, you know, he was getting dangerous and careless Like you said he I believe at this point he was Figured he's going soon. You know, he almost rather go out of blaze of glory And be remembered that way Uh, but you know, he was failing to Consider jimmy and I with young wives and young families and young children You know and their futures So, uh, it got uh, it got very frustrating. You know, we thought at times You know, I Are almost, you know, looking at each other and saying should we do it? Should we take this guy out just ended? You know, we were the ones that could do it. That's how bad it got You know But you know the bottom line we'd never be trusted by anybody and it wouldn't have been a a loyal act obviously But we did get to that point where we looked at each other several times with the look that you know It is Very very very very edgy. So larry if I can jump in here. We're almost out of time and um One thing that I I found online and I'm very impressed with is a Picture of you and robert deniro So I'm wondering if we could finish up here with you telling us a little bit more about what you're up to Lately and future projects and Yes, just what's going on now, please and then we'll promote your book as well Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Uh, yeah, well, I did write the book. It's called the life and You know some of the police officers that uh were first on the scene and that Of some of the hits and one or two or might I grew up with Uh are now robert deniro's uh security so when he When they made the deal to do this movie called the irishman that's coming out as most of us know in october now he asked them if They can reach someone Who was or is in the life and would really Talk to him about how things really happen meaning hits and disposal of weapons and a variety of information he needed So they all set me So a couple of months later Uh, I go meet with him And it was supposed to be an hour He kept me there from 12 to 3 Just listening to me a few times a few times. I had to say Mr. Benero, I says am I talking too much? No, no, no, please Little bit. She did a little bit Well, wait a while. That's funny So now uh, he wants me to be he calls me back a few weeks later He asked some more questions and then he asked if I would go if I would like to meet Marty Scorsese So I say of course, I mean it's been an honor meeting you imagine, you know being me to both of you You know, wonderful. The next day I'm at Marty's house And he has his casting directors there and Ultimately they give me a screening They had one part in mind for me, which would have been an incredible part I would have been sitting with him and Pacino and Joe Pesci several times through the movie with a lot of with a lot of lines But there were various things uh that didn't make that possible So I wind up being in the movie anyway. I I'm the hitman that kills Alvin and his vasia in the barber seat So when you watch the movie watch for me That's me doing that and that's the irishman. Uh, the marty scorsese. He's new like 200 million dollar netflix I think it's about 200. Yeah, and it's uh, it's gonna be about uh, we got a very detroit Edge to that film with the it's the story of the relationship between frank the irishman Sheeran who was a east coast teamster slash hitman and then jimmy hoffa who was the most uh Iconic labor leader probably in american history and whose murder is still unsolved here Almost 50 years later So, yeah, yep, that's a great it's really a great story and some of it brings true Some of it still leaves questions, uh, but there's a few things and i'm looking for in the movie to see if uh, mr. Benero Uh took my advice. I think he will Uh, I gotta tell you funny and I know there was one thing I told him he asked me about going into a place Would you ever use two guns? And I said it's hard enough you won and they even won I said it's not like the wild west where you are And just starting with some people I said I I might have a second gun on me And I said the other thing I said there's no way I'm gonna walk into a place And specifically the one i'm talking about is a joke allo hit that this guy claims to have fun and have my driver Take a ride around the block I'm gonna tell him you sit right here till I come back out Because you know you drive around a block in New York you can get stuck behind sanitation that lights Double parked cars. So you're gonna shoot this guy come out And nobody's gonna be there So there was a funny picture When he's filming the scene He goes in He does it the guy drives off to go around the block Benero comes back out And there's no car he's got two guns in his hand and he's got his arms wide open So hopefully uh, that ran true to him that's what I told him Among other things I got into a a show called the perfect murder I played this is also a funny coincidence. I play a corrupt x cop named, uh, Joe Blasco out of Las Vegas Who works for tony spolatro? Who is joe pesci's character in casino? And it's a true murder story about a guy named Ron Rudin who got killed in the 80s And one of the suspects was the mop angle and spolatro and myself So that's what's called the perfect murder Uh, and it's the reason I bring that up is one of the lines I you know, I was able to improvise they wanted me to do that be sarcastic So I stole a few little Ways, uh, like one of them. I had to say how to call is very very dirty Uh, and that's if you remember james con When he said he's taking this very very personal. Oh, yeah So I used that and I told him that I told him that I also said I had a smart and the guy up I had well they didn't use that word. I was taking it for a ride. I got to convince you Why's that would say I'm gonna convince you to do this? So I said let me smarten you up a little bit And I told him I use that line too and he says well, that's good. That's what you're supposed to do You know, you take something that worked. So anyway, yeah, so hopefully I get maybe I'll get a few more calls Uh, we're working on a high-end documentary right now. I can't name the company yet But they're very prominent. Uh, and they want to do a high-end big budget doc Several episodes and hopefully that will impress the network into turning it into a Sopranos like series Awesome. It's not too far off. Uh, I have to go back to new york in about a month to Uh, complete my filming and then we're gonna we have a lot of good people coming on there some agents some cops Uh, a judge jerry capizzi. Uh, I have to reach out to him. He says if I if I call him, he'll you know He wants talk to me. He'll do it. Uh, so Uh, that's pretty exciting to him hoping that doesn't hit us. Uh, you know Any skids and the narrow is still very interested, you know, the last I heard, you know, after I met scorsese He then sent me to nick collegi's house and collegi already had my book and he had hundreds of notes made So, you know, there's something in there Thoughts too So, uh, one of you gentlemen said it's surprising that it's never come out yet It's gonna start coming out. I think now is the time. Uh, I think enough of uh The fb high agency retired that might not have wanted it to happen or pressure people whatever may be the case But it seems to be it's gonna come out now. Well, this was great. Uh, larry maza Just an outstanding storyteller. You can get his book the life On amazon anywhere books are sold. You can uh, go to the theater or stream Irishman on netflix in october If I may yeah, I may the best way is At all the books come signed with a uh, a dvd But the song that was written for the book as well as uh, a little trailer At at, uh, w w w dot larry maza dash thelife.com Okay, great. Thank you, larry. This was awesome. This was an incredibly compelling interview and Um, we really appreciate you joining us here on the og and you're always welcome back to come and tell stories and I'll always be there for you. Uh, just let me know when it's on so I can Listen in with you guys. Awesome. Thanks larry