 I'm going to hit record, and we are going live in three, two, one, zero. I'm not connected. We're live. We'll come back. Welcome everybody here to Segal Talks at the Markney Segal Theater Center at the Graduate Center CUNY. It's week 13 for us here at the Segal Center as far as we know the only institution in the Americas and in Europe producing new work every day of the week to relate it or programming to Covid, corona, the social unrest we are experiencing and we listen to voices from all around the world from India and South Africa and from Chile and and Germany, Italy, all the countries, Hong Kong, Malaysia, we just said on. So we're trying really to get an overview of how artists make it in that time. They are hit first. They're going to be working, start working the latest again. People say many countries, massage salons and theaters will open at the same time. We are basically non-essential and what we normally don't have, we don't have space, we don't have money, is now amplified in a catastrophic situation. Up to the end of the year most people I know, most theater artists, musicians have no work, no gigs, they can't even work in the restaurants, which often normally they did, you know, they might be slowly reopening and they are and businesses are starting today. Offices are open for business. It's the first day. Cuomo said it's fine to start with low occupancy again. Numbers are not encouraging. It's up 15 percent infection rate. Of course there's more testing, but still it's not good signs. Also, not good news. There's a study done in Europe. They say, even if you had corona, anti-body particles are decreasing after three to four months. It's 90 percent disappear. Normally only 70 percent. You keep the anti-bodies, but there's something going on. Nobody knows yet exactly what it is and they all wish, of course, that we would be immune. Artists have been always, as we say on the right side of social change, of justice, and the fight for the complex history of freedoms and we need to listen to them. There's ever a time when art is important. It is now. We just had Saman Amini from Iran who was living in the Netherlands. He said, if anybody had any doubt why art is important, it has anybody gotten through corona without reading a book, listening to music, looking at paintings, having sculptures, in their replaced in the home. Now we do know, next to everything else, what artists do and contribute to society, how significant it is. And also for artists, it's time to speak up. It's time to be part of the conversation, rethink what we are doing, and we have to change ourselves also to see the world change. This is what we hear from many, many who are here with us. Today, we have two significant artists with us, two artists who represent, I think, also the very best of America and how it should be the dream of America and the diversity and the inclusion. The question of, famously said, New York is the melting pot that never melted, and today we have with us Muriel Muguel and Gloria Muguel from the Great Spider Women's Theater, Native American Indigenous Theater Company. Since the 70s, Muriel is a choreographer, director, and an actor. She's the founding and artistic director of Spider Women's Theater, the longest running Indigenous Women's Theater Company in North America. She has directed almost everything, what they have done since then, she has taught at many centers. I think also worked with Joe Jiken at the Open Theater, is that right? And has an honorary degree from the Florida, I think, University of Fine Arts. Gloria is a Kunam, Rapunak elder, grew up in Brooklyn and performing in circus side shows with her family, singing and doing drama in church. And she studied theater in Oberlin and then she joined with her sister Muriel to form Spider Women's Theater. Their first production, Women in Violence, was a big success, was significant. They traveled around the world, Europe, the Nancy Festival, and they have been producing ever since. They have been a couple of times to the Siegel Center and I've always valued them. One production was something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue with it. I had a dialogue between abstract patterns and the weavings and many, many, many other things. So this will be the end of my hopefully not too long introduction. Muriel and Gloria, thank you both for spending time without taking the time and energy. And maybe Gloria, we start with you, who got a minute or two before the HowlRound show started on her iPad and is doing in Zoom. Gloria, how are you and where are you? I am, I guess okay. For my age, I'm still participating, working and screaming and crying. I'm in my apartment in the West Village, West Best. That's where I am now, New York City. In New York City, West Best is an artist housing, one of the, there should be so many, many more, but a fantastic institution. Where I am. On the second floor, right over the door on West Village Street. Fantastic. Fantastic. And Muriel, where are you? Well, I live in a house, the family house, and I'm in Brooklyn. What neighborhood? Backyard. Oh God, what is this neighborhood called? I don't remember. Tell us the street. It's DeGraw Street, but it keeps on changing what neighborhood this is. It used to be Red Hook, it used to be the canal there, but now it has another name. What's the name, Deborah? Oh, Carol Gardens. That's what it's called now. It's Kwaishishi. So all of a sudden you are in the Shishi neighborhood. That gives us an idea of the history you both carry with you. So, Corona, what did this time of confinement and lockdown, what did it mean to you guys personally? Is that who me? Gloria? I had a hell of a time. Our show ended in January, February, and I had a bad cold and the doctor said stay home. So on the third week in February, I stayed home and I've been home ever since. So it's very hard because I discovered and I just, after talking to other Native women and then the corona mixed in with the Black Lives Matter whole situation for me. And for me personally, I became very sick. I just had some sort of attack and so forth. And I discovered that it brought up all the things that I filed away in order to continue living. And so I became quite ill and my daughter helped me. She lives in Toronto and then it was Monique Mojica. And I had a counselor and the counselor discovered that I hid all these horrible things that happened to me as a person of color in New York and the coronavirus sort of picking out, getting them out, making me sick. And then the Black Lives Matter, a George Floyd was killed and it was a double whammy because it brought out like people of color, not only Black, but people of color suffered. Suffered from the day they were born and in order to go on living, put aside all the hate, a lot of the hate, not all of it. And so all this starts coming out. All this starts coming out. Okay, I'm not going to go through any of the stories if you want any, okay. But it did affect me and I discovered it affected a lot of Native women I know. So that they were ill, they were upset, they tried to do something if they could. I was sort of handicapped because I'm so old. I had to stay home. So it is very interesting what came out of that file cabinet that I threw away and how it connected with Black Lives Matter and how there are Indian Native people who are trying to work in this and it's difficult too because we went through how also and it's still going on and it's all over the world because when I went to Europe I went through hell also. So personally, you know, I was never beaten up but horrible, nasty, unnecessary things happen all my life and it's happened to all the Native people all their lives. And I'm speaking but mainly for myself or what Corona brought up and how it clashed with Black Lives Matter and what to do now because sometimes when I start thinking of it I get sick all over again. My heart beats. I get chills. I don't know. So this is something that I have to work out on my own I guess. Not file it away but it's there and I'm sure I'm not the only Native person that has this and I keep on saying because of my age I am handicapped but I have to stay in truth and it's not easy for me to go out and protest. It's not easy for me to travel anybody right now and it's something that it's good that this talk came up because I will talk about it and hope I don't get sick but it's there in so many ways. I would say for myself, I suffered from the day I was born for me and Native in the US, in New York City, in Brooklyn and how it it's not only me you know we all suffered in our way and we were all killed you know about Wounded Knee and the police and everything a lot of people were killed and a lot of people are still fighting and a lot of people have grown and a lot of people I was um just let their fear hold them back so there's so many stories there's so many stories that at this point in my life I don't know where to start I sit down here and start writing they all know this is more important that's more important I'm going to make a new piece about this I'll where to what you know it but it this there is a lot of work to be done and I'm not the only one fortunately or unfortunately uh that and I have uh had a lot of stories and a lot of work to do to a recover emotionally and physically uh and historically and uh I don't have much time you know because I'm I'm an elder elder so um I'll stop there for a moment you can come back to me so you want me to talk yeah please please do it well you know I came I was in Canada when everything happened and we came across the border and I would just started to think about what what this meant this virus meant and then I started to hear things where I would say to my partner you know we really should clean the wheel and clean the you know the car and uh then I started to talk about putting gloves on to get the gas out of the tanks and then about pushing a button that we should have a gloves on but we still weren't wearing masks no one asked us to wear masks people were fighting over toilet paper and I was like I didn't know I didn't know what it was and it felt like it was going to leave and so um it was going to be like the flu and um when we got back it was two days later that everything was shut down and I was in the house and I kept on you know I heard that one of the ensemble passed away that was really shocking then I heard of another person that passed away and that was really shocking and then I heard about another person so it felt like it was coming closer and closer and closer and then my son-in-law passed and that was awful all from COVID all from COVID and my daughter was in our house and she had the virus and I couldn't touch her I couldn't go to the hospital I couldn't touch my granddaughter I was I was in the house and my daughter heard that her husband passed she couldn't do anything about it and you feel like you're not giving support you can't go out of your house and there you know it was like it not only did it get closer and closer but now we had this huge elephant in the room with us and that was the the virus and so I um it was very hard and the funeral was very hard I couldn't go to the funeral I couldn't do anything and it I think the worst thing is that we are like animals you know we are animals and and we want to touch we want to hug we want to do all of this and it was taken away from us so the suffering gets bigger and bigger you know and worse and worse and that's how I was thinking and then you get all the anxiety you get all the anxiety of what is happening and I think I've been out three or four times now out into the world and that that has been it so I have ended up I have a backyard and I have big trees and I I go there I I pray to the tree I touch the tree I put down stuff for my son-in-law and I've planted I planted a lot we've planted vegetables and and all of that we've planted a lot of things and so I can look out the window and see things growing and that was really it took a lot of the anxiety away from me was that just putting my hands in the dirt and and watering and and looking and looking and looking at the flowers and and the tomatoes growing and you know that it it soothed me in a way that I sitting at home didn't work for me then I started to use zoom and and I talked to a number of people from the ensemble and so we're working now on on a piece and see if we can work it the same way that we usually were the future to me is really scary because I mean how are we going to do this how in our work is with touch and breath and all those things you can't do you can't touch you can't breathe it next to each other so how are we going to do the future you know and and I think with that has to come a big talk a big talk and a big zoom with a lot of the old native theater people and and try to figure this out for us and that's that that's how I'm feeling that you know we have to now start preparing in a different way maybe we were too comfortable all of us all of us artists I'm not only talking about native but you know all of us have been too comfortable and this is a big big lesson I don't know I have to think about that you know I have people calling me up that you know a friend of mine said I have COVID-19 you know and I have to I have to be there like oh yeah well how you're feeling and so forth but me inside inside my my body I'm going ah you know you know she is she could pass so I mean that's that's how I am thinking you know is there something else you want to ask us yeah no I'm I'm just um you know I'm taking that all in and and and and and of course I think also that social unrest on the street and Black Lives Matter as both of you said that must have an impact yeah Gloria what what what comes to your mind when you uh when you when you well first of all yeah I understand that that phrase um white what is it called now white um supremacy the primacy and the other word privilege privilege right privilege because and I'm thinking uh this isn't new it's happened before I know how these people feel I know how it is to uh uh walk down the street and and someone spit on you I know how it is to walk down anywhere and have someone pull your hair okay that that that are things that that happened all your life and you store it away because you have to go on living I've never been uh uh uh uh attacked physically but emotionally yes all my life so I identified I didn't go you know I've never had a gun in my head or my back or anything but I I can identify and it's so wrong and so it gets me so angry that because of my skin color because of our skin color that because of uh where we were and and what happened to our ancestors we are being punished and the white privilege not understand maybe the young people are understanding uh because when you when you mention it uh people say oh you're too sensitive oh uh I never had an experience like of course when you walk into a room people don't stop and look at you who are you what are you what are you gonna do here you know you you don't have that initial bang bang that that that starts with you from the beginning so it's so it's difficult yes there are people who can identify there are people who uh allies I guess you can call but they still don't understand and they're just beginning to understand and maybe the young people will be able to understand that I know it goes way way way way back and that's I think what gets me ill and sick about uh okay yes there are one or two allies there are many allies on the street now it's very impressed with the group saying oh when the police were really on top of the of a line of people black people someone yelled out white shield and the white people white kids came in front and the police stopped and that's such a good example uh it's not only the police it's the school teachers it's the ministers it's your next door neighbor it's the children you go to school with the teachers in school that that it has to change from way back and understand what it's like to be that different in your eyes in your world and say you know uh every life of color matters all those children at the border all the people at the border all the people uh of color anywhere uh all over the world because I remember one time thinking I wonder what it's like to your in Europe I went to Europe it's the same people make fun of me oh in the street oh we don't mean anything we love you uh you know that that kind of it's really ingrained in the white personality and it's a hell of a lot of work that we've got to do and then I say to myself I've got to live my own rooms take care of my own people uh and and then make make a strong go out and and gather I it's it's a big job and and I think it's a job now with the young people very young people beginning to understand like when I hear that white shield and the white kids came in front you know that's the beginning to understand what we're going through and what stops from the word go when my daughter was gone in the hospital I was in the elevator with the baby in my arm and the nurses was looking at her saying oh what is she what is she what is it now I looked at them I said she's a human being like saying that says but that it begins with with with with with the the hate or the misunderstanding or the not understanding of the the ruling class and they want to hold us back and they're all holding us back and then and we have to fight not to be crazy and the radical and um full of hate in return and that's a long story so many stories but when I start opening that file cabinet of all the things that I threw in there in order to go on living it made me sick and I'm still fighting that sickness and I'm not the only one and and and many uh native women I've talked to are fighting that also and then uh the men are still fighting that plus the black men that I understand so well uh and women uh fighting for just uh uh just just to be able to exist take a glass of water to walk into a restaurant to go uh sit in the theater and uh those are the little things not the big things and maybe it will come out maybe the next generation of white people will understand but it's that I think about a lot of times what I think about is how um you know they talk about native people have you know high a lot of high blood blood pressure and diabetes and all all these all these diseases and and what Gloria is saying is that how can you not if you're walking down the street and people attack you how can you not if people say things to you how can you not you know it's not to me surprising that people have high blood pressure and diabetes and things and I think it comes from that it comes from being not able to really say something to people and now is the time to say things and now it's really important and what I feel is that with black lives matter you know I am I am there and I you know I I am there I I I I believe it all these young people old people and everything that has happened but at the same time here I am and I'm waiting for someone to say Native American and no one is saying it or very few it's an afterthought and I again I feel that that feeling of um what are we this was this is our land and other people talk about that being their land you know and I you know I bristle because I say to myself this is really our land this is where you got awful boats to be here on this land and uh so it's so hard sometimes and and then I I realize that a lot of Native people and the way we look at things is different and it's never taken into consideration that the way we think at times it comes out maybe the same way that everyone else but me have a different route and we and and that has to be appreciated that we have a different route I I saw in Minneapolis and there's a lot of Native people in Minneapolis and and where he was killed uh Native people came and made it a sacred place and then they brought the drum and then uh there were jingle dancers and I thought wow this is really wonderful and there were a lot of people surrounded but nobody else thought it was important what they made it a sacred place they talked about it and and and no you know you saw it like like as in passing how important it was how important that Native people came to that place how important that they danced how important it was for them to sing you know this is who we are and and you didn't see it on tv we're worth these these cameras and everything talking about it and and and so you know when I'm thinking when I think about it I I keep on thinking that you have to recognize us for who we are and how we approach because it's different it really is different and and then I think of the pipeline and I think of of I think of all these places where where Native people have been pushed down and and uh murdered and beaten up and so and and I see all these people on the street saying black lives matter so where were they where were they when we were getting killed when we were hurting when you know we're you know these pipelines and how it's going to kill the the land and the water and and reservations and reserves you know so some people came there but it wasn't this national thing so was it the coronavirus who kept everybody in for so long was it that that started this is it is it something that we have to learn that we're not learning and uh you know like black lives matter goes to Washington I want to be there you know I want to I want to be there and it's hard you know I'm an old lady but I think now it's it's so important for us all to talk to each other and we haven't been doing that we you know we we're sort of when I said I I'm tired of being an asterisk because that's what it feels it feels like I'm tired of being the also ran you know we have a lot to say and we're important we're important we're important to the the earth we're important to the sky we're important to how we talk to each other and and so that's where I am I I I feel that now you have to talk about us you have to really talk about us when you talk about black lives matter you really have to talk about us you know in the US the brown people's lives matter and certainly the red people's lives matter that you know we have to really start talking to us and that we're not unusual we're not cute we're not only spiritual but you know we're into the nitty gritty here and all this is happening and at the same time you know women are being murdered you know women disappear there's heavy trafficking and you know that is what's happening to us it isn't like nothing is happening to us I'm through and there's one other thing I was told and maybe it's selfish something we do have to also take time out and take care of ourselves our people because at this we have to be careful about being used and and and I'm becoming aware of that in terms of how to perform this experience because it is a double whammy experience of the protests and the virus and it's and it's a time to do something about it across the world and in in the states and we have a lot of problems a lot of problems to fight and battle listening that's important too and I remember one time there was an essay written about me in the paper and and you know it was one of those things that people do about a director of a native group and so on and and I remember the young woman called me up and she said well do you have any last words that you want to say before I finish this uh in this article and I said yes what is what's important is to listen listen listen listen and she said to me no I mean really what no really what what's important you know I thought I said a very heavy thing and I said again I said no really have to listen listen listen and and so when I realized that she didn't get what I was saying you know that I started to talk about it in in the classrooms with with the with the native kids and and how important it is to listen and and you know just sitting outside in my backyard to listen to the birds you know it's really important listen to the birds and listening listening to the swaying of the trees and it and that centers me you know I put my hand on my big tree and and pray to my big tree and I think and listening to the tree and listening to the tree and I think uh those things are considered airy fairy I don't know but they're not considered important and what's important is to really start at your own route you have to start at your own route to to to make everybody understand not only native people but everybody understand and you have to listen you really have to listen that's going on according to what you're listening to awesome what there's a young white of a child here uh what's different than what a young black baby or indian baby what what they hear and and and what there's a city person like I have a lucky enough to have two trees in front of my window so when it's quiet I can hear the birds but ordinarily you just hear sirens and and cars and uh you you can't hear you have to stay in a place where you are or be at a moment where you can listen and listen and smell and feel the tree of I don't know we all have to get together and really talk about what and maybe they be listening to the young people the young people do have a different outlook nowadays but we've got to all talk to each other in order to survive because I feel the ruling class which is the white class so they don't it's they're not aware if they're not aware they can't listen to become aware from the day they're born so thank you what was the story of your parents you say you and your parents as how did they experience new york and what what were their stories me they're they're both quite different my father was born in the city my father was born on islands the Kuna samba islands he had a absolutely different life than my mother born in the city in new york um my mother my father was definitely indigenous in every sense and form because he died feeling that way of fighting it or trying to see the white man's world and and destruction of his soul because of it and my mother her mother the rapper had it for christians so they believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and missionary so they they had a conflict i was looking up as a young age to see the difference i don't know how it became uh that i could see the difference the way my father thought and the way my mother thought and i knew there was a conflict and um so i i was aware of certain things and i would fight my grandmother i would listen to my father and his friends who came and sang and prayed and talked i was in both worlds besides going to school in Brooklyn i was born in the house where Muriel lives now and going to school in that neighborhood which is absolutely Italian at that time and uh being aware of the white world that didn't like me and uh all those things i stored away or i kept uh thinking about and i still think about it you know uh i got to a point when when i was younger wondering what this person's thinking how are they thinking the native person the black person the white person they're so different they don't understand each other and here i am in the middle you know trying to to understand it uh living a young youth's life falling in love uh uh getting married uh trying to to to go to school and study because i had a great voice when i was young i must say and um the schools wouldn't take me because they said i didn't have an academic background so i had to find another way to to to get voice lessons and i had to find different people who would help me and uh it was hard work it's hard work it's still hard work because after a while you don't know who you're going to trust and you're lucky if you find someone you can really trust and and it's still going on it's still still still working with people i think all of us feel that you know whether you're black or people of color i think we all feel that that you know you can't trust anymore and and that's hard but you know growing up i i think of uh very very uh centering ways that ways things happen to me i i was the youngest and so i was sheltered in many ways by my sisters and uh but i remember all my uncles and i remember on sunday them coming into the house and going into the front room and they would talk to each other in and they would sing and they would use the pipes and i would hear all of this very young when i go the way up and until you know i was a grown woman and it was very important to them to do that and so you know i have that feeling and then i have the feeling of a grandmother who came up from the south who came from a reservation there and and trying to get out of that hard time there on that reservation and when you think about it my grandmother was a midwife and her mother was a midwife and they would go buy horseback to deliver babies all over this reservation and so when they came to brooklyn and it's hard for people to understand that they came to brooklyn they had a hard time on the street because they were not white and the people that were living there at that time were irish and it and they put out a petition not to have our family on this on this block but the landlord was a man of integrity and he gave the house to the family to live in you know and i think again i think of those type of people that said this is not right i came from ireland and it was really hard here this is not right that we have to stop these people so there is one man in all of this who is talking like that so you know that is important i i think of that and i think of all the native kids that i grew up with because this this neighborhood at that time when i was growing up and all the way to irelandic avenue where it became a native neighborhood and that's what i grew up in i had a hard time with a lot of the kids on the block and again it was important to to leave that you know i was a tough little kid on you know on the street and that was tough i would be i would go go into a battle this is fast but what saved me was my friends all these native kids you know we would go back into the house we learned songs we learned dances and that's what was important to us and we went when here's another story i uh growing up and going to a grammar school you know the social studies teacher said that there are no longer native people as you call them Indians and they lost their culture they don't have a culture and they're not around anymore and i was like shocked i was like uh 10 or 11 years old and i was absolutely shocked that that this teacher could say such a thing and i got up and confronted him and of course i got in big trouble but then i learned that there were other native kids that were from the same group that i you know i used to play and you know fool around and was getting in trouble the same way they got in trouble because they said native people were no longer living and they lost their culture and there's nothing you know there's nothing left of it and they confronted them and they got in trouble so out of that came a group called Little Eagles and we went into schools and we talked about our culture now that's a long time ago we were from 11 to maybe 15 and we did that that's a long time ago you know that was in the around the late 40s that we did this and and so i i still i still have that feeling i still have that feeling of you have to go you have to do it you know you have to find a way of doing it there has to be a way of doing it and and that's so i mean that's what how i approached spider woman theater was that i had to do it these things were really important and i had to say them and i didn't know what the audience was going to be who was going to be but i had to say them and i was going to gather women together to talk about that and that was at that time being beat up and raping and also still going on it's still going on that you know women are disappearing women are being hurt it's still going on in canada many women and indigenous women in canada that's right and here not only in canada here here but you old usa you know that is happening here in both places so imagine what's happening in Mexico imagine you know if you're starting to think of people of color and you're starting to think of first of first nations people what's happening yeah the magic of of uh uh there was still a bit of magic in the whole thing about being native and indigenous uh different tribe because years ago or even before we were working with one we used to have a club of native people uh and uh we we uh we met at our home and uh we danced we sang for the people and it and everybody was interested in the neighborhood the churches everybody was interested in that so that little speck of of tradition in an Italian neighborhood i think did save us because i remember some psychiatrists wanted spider woman uh to to perform and talk to them and later on after we were having dinner and i said how come you picked us but would it would be what way you know what is that and that and one of the doctors said to me because you identified and your tradition helped you and you survived and those little words survival uh of magic maybe or interest uh against me confidence that i'm worth something and you know people make fun of me but it's good and uh and that's what my most magnificent stories come out of that that that background of of of doing something like i was reminded just now of a teacher who was very racist she was mad at me because i lost lost my space in the reading and she came up to me and she knocked me off the seat onto the floor and it was awful and i went home we used to go home for lunch in those days and i told my mother and my father was home that time too so in the afternoon without telling me without telling the teachers of my mother and father knocked on the door of that classroom and they both came in and my father was a very beautiful indian my mother beautiful woman and they walked up to the teacher and they gave her help and i felt so proud i felt so proud there's a way to fight it there's a way to do something about it and my mother and father were wonderful they told that teacher that that they don't touch me or hit me officially on the what life did she have to touch me and it was i was so proud so a little bit of of of strength growth that to show up and be proud of what you are and do something about it it's very important you know even if it is small because i from then on i could go back to school and hold my head up you know it's just being proud that of of of the distance and being proud of the song or the story and and and exploring it and telling people you know you might be italian and you have your italian song i have my song you know and uh it gave me strength in in performing just fighting back a little bit of a fight fighting back and i think uh that is probably still there although i do this drown a lot of the uh experiences but there are other people who have experiences i think i look at it in terms of of how you asked yourself the question and you're always asking yourself the question why did this happen how did this happen and and uh and really looking at it i mean i i realized as gloria was talking that one of the things i remember saying uh when we were working is what is the question and that was so important to me talking about what is the question and how how do you look at it with the question how do you come to it do you you know do you come to it sideways you come up tunnel it up from the ground or you hit it from the sky but how do you approach it and get all these sides working and getting all the sides because there can't be only one answer and uh and and that's how i approach uh directing and that's how i approach what when i'm all of us are talking that's why it's so important to talk and listen to each other is that that's how we get to where we're going in answers now and uh yeah and that to me is really really important that question you know what is the question you know that really is important to me anything else you want to answer yeah no this is all this is so um so important and significant you know what you say and i'm trying to take it in and i wonder you know what it means to you when you hear for good reason that said the original sin was slavery and then you say you know there was something before slavery and so how do you how do you um yeah how does it make you feel how does it make you all feel many years ago uh this was during the height of the american indian movement in new york city there are a couple of men um that were standing outside the museum of natural history and uh it's it's really a long long time ago and they decided to do something about teddy roosevelt and the statue yeah the poor downtrodden native people and all of this and when you look at it you really really hate it you really hate that statue and so they threw a paint on it and they got arrested and uh but all of us were like it was wonderful you know and then they scrubbed it up and did all this without any thinking of what teddy roosevelt meant to us and and the the idea of having these poor downtrodden indians that he he made them slaves and wasn't he a hero so yesterday in you know when it came on that they're going they're talking about taking taking away the statue outside the museum of natural history you know i saw war who'll be yeah it was like so wonderful you know that it only took uh let's see how many years is that uh 50 years it only took about 50 years for for people to realize it and and you know you know we're talking about confederate flags we're talking about you know Robert E. Lee and the conquistadors and so forth Christopher Columbus you know and so and then you hear Cuomo say well we can't take down uh uh Columbus circle because there are so many people and this is a nice man this is a nice governor because uh they all identify with Christopher Columbus you know you say damn you know a guy Columbus who never who never set foot on America or North America he was just on the island who was the first slave trader he was the very first to take slaves you know back and terrible colonial discover all those people that they don't want to become Italian whatever you kill them and he did that's right so do you think you will see the statue go down or i hope so you know i was like will you make a special ceremony will you do a special ceremony oh i don't know i don't know we need a lot of us i don't know maybe they should have a ceremony not just tear it down and destroy it but just take it down put it somewhere else and in context you know ceremony at a time like this um you know i guess i can't have it both ways you know that that it should be taken down and at the same time you know ceremony makes us special in a different way and is that good or bad i mean that's the questions i have is that you know so uh yeah yeah i i don't know i think there should be a park you know with all those statues of that southern whatever the confederate generals and they could be maybe they should face statues of other people of indigenous people and they should have a dialogue because yes they are pieces of art they should be destroyed but they had the context um it was interesting and Wilson you know this great african-american artist that's what he does he takes things he found shackles you know of baby slaves slaves for little children and he put at nights next to 17th century silverware from boston you know he said oh yeah yeah yeah it was produced in the same time think about it yes you know and he had i think he had a pole a whipping pole and then he had beautiful furniture done you know in Philadelphia and anywhere and they said he arranged the furniture that they would look at this portal and he said think about it he was done at the same moment you know not destroying but it should be taken away there and it should be replaced with something it should be a place for those statues because you'll learn something from it it was interesting there there was a mother of someone i knew who um you know she would see all these little black men you know the jockeys the people that the the slaves that held the uh what are they called they're they're just outside of houses you know people that uh you put your bike uh on it or you you sit you know you tie up they have here and they have a little uh saris and uh black and then they have these little black uh jockeys right and so she would go out and this was the mother and she would go out and paint them white she would paint their faces in their hands white and i said that's really wonderful i love that idea you know you go out and paint them white yeah no i like very much what you both said that's time to listen um it's also a time to talk to each other and also it's a time for everybody especially of us also yes the white people to realize it's not your burden to explain it's not yeah for you to do the emotional work it's not up for you to you know to say we should do that and as uh gloria said you have to also take care of yourself what a terrible time and everything that comes up right now you were you felt you got physically sick in this covid time clara if i understand you had a medical uh condition that developed right now in other people say oh it's a great time i spent with my family i can do reading you know i'm enjoying it so much and i can watch films for you both it's something very different that experience yes or even right now as we talk about my heart and people died yeah in your family because as we as far as we know indigenous people yeah uh much much higher rate you know for whatever reasons you know and they are you see your whole family going right there in front of you you know that's what got me was that you know my son and lord passed away my daughter was sick at home you know my grandchild was taking care of my my daughter and it was like right in front of me you know and you couldn't do anything it was like touching air or something you couldn't you couldn't you know you couldn't get to it you couldn't hug them you couldn't support them it was i think one of the hardest times in my life it was very very hard and and uh and i think probably you know in a year because you think of it every day in a year maybe there'll be some answers somewhere in for us or for me at least for me how to approach this and you know that and and theater now is is like how do we approach theater how do we approach these all these questions we're asking and and how um like i want a theater space a native theater space i want a theater space because it's everyone else in new york city has a theater space you know you don't not even a 90 seat theater you could get right yeah nothing we have nothing and i uh and i really really wanted and it seems almost started to appear that maybe this could be possible because i started to talk to people and and then the virus arose and everything i was going to have a convene and and bring in the old native theater people that have been working here for over 50 years and all of us talking together and and bring in uh some of the chiefs and some of the clan mothers and have us all talk together and come and and a way of finding a way uh to find a theater space and and how do we keep the theater space up and all of that i wanted to talk about that and of course the virus came and shut down everything and this was push it was supposed to be in may and and then one of the young men that was working with me was my son-in-law who passed away and so everything stopped everything stopped for me it was it was frozen in space for me it was really i taking and inhaling a breath and holding it that's what it felt like to me nothing was happening so i realized that's what i was doing so i i had to really start thinking and talking and and see if we can do this if we can find a space now what do we do we do with a space if you can't touch and you can't be more than 10 people and and people are maybe still getting sick what do you do what do you do as different theater groups together you only talk like we're talking now but then what do you do with the piece that you produce how do you work that so i i i bought a was a a theremin you know one of those you move the hand and the melody yeah yeah so i bought one of those and i sent it to one of the people from the ensemble and asked her to start just a song compose a song a native song with and use the the the theremin and and then i then we started to think uh my partner and i i started to think about how do we do it we could have a music uh forum on on tv like this you know and how how do we do it that we get all the ensemble in there and and who do we bring in and and and of course i i'm such a novice i i know nothing about this you know putting it together like this but that's what i'm thinking now you know there's a huge hurdle to come over and some people are not going to make it and some people will not want to make it and some people will go off on their own but my feeling is that we have to really jump the hurdle we have to jump the hurdle and find out what's on the other side and uh and uh and see all the things that gloria was talking about be aware of that be aware of that but still go on still you know still jump the hurdle and get to the other side and start working again because that's that i mean when i think about it that's how i started to work when i realized how many women were being beaten this is uh you know over 40 years ago when i realized how many women were being beaten and and uh i decided to to uh start spider woman but more than that was to tell the stories and you know as gloria was talking i was thinking you know now we really have to tell these stories now these are the stories that have to be told these are the stories you know the things like being invited to something you have on a panel and then people tell you what to do and that to me is not being an ally you know they talk to all the things about being allies and or cohorts or all of this stuff that i could not accept because they're telling you what to do and how to think and my feeling is you have to move over because we're here too and that's that's why i want to approach the hurdle you know i want to approach the hurdle of we're here too and and that's black wait a minute black lives matter is true but we're here too and that's that's really important we're here too that we support you you have to support us you know it's it's just not only one one color here there's all of us with all these colors you know we're talking about you know latino and and and asian and all of these we're all you know and of course we're gonna fight but that is what we're supposed to do i think it's fine you know that's how we listen to each other and it doesn't mean we're gonna get not get hurt and i think all of that is part of how we're how we're thinking is that we're afraid to get hurt we're afraid to die we're afraid to get sick we're afraid of a lot of things and that i think is part of the solution is how how do we make it that we're not afraid not afraid when we jump the hurdle and we don't know what's on the other side that's what's important even though we are sick and you know because i think uh all the stories we've always tried to tell that but i've been told that oh i thought you were going to sing a nice little song and do a nice little dance i didn't know you're going to make us cry and and people uh don't want to hear those stories but i think they're the stories that make us what we are and uh and and if we're sick it's because we didn't tell those stories and and and these stories are not only told by natives and indigenous people they're told by all people of color and and we have to listen to each other maybe not even to uh the white people stand back do another shield and we have to go ahead anyway do you feel with the time now of corona and thinking again existentially as you both did so hard i mean of all the interviews we have done this is one of the hardest experiences you know you you tell us about it and do you think your cedar will be different will you do something different than before will you do the do you feel it's going to change the way how you approach theater and performance will there be something different i should i think it should change it has to be different i i think um yeah i think it's going to be different i really do think it's going to be different how it's going to be different i have no idea and and that is what's exciting you know that i have no idea what's going means me just diving in to direct something and not having um well you know the white theater people are telling me what to do i think that that is a big thing that that we we have to really i've had too much experience now in um and not being a good indian not being a good native that i i uh you know and you and you fight that with people that really you know they want to they want to become famous they want to make money and listen i can't put that down i think that that's that's the way they're going and i don't go that way and i um as long as they don't put me down i'm not interested in putting them down you know i really feel that way uh but i think i think it's going to take a lot of talking i think because i i was thinking the other day i started to write other thing that happened to me was that i couldn't write after uh my son and little kevin passed it was like um it was like this black thing came into my brain and just shut it down and um i would have dreams i would dream about about him and what did you dream you do i don't know all i know he was there he was there and um and that and that was uh very hard you know and people would ask me that because i had a dream of kevin and uh and i don't know i don't know what i dreamt of i just know that he was there and so i in a way talking about it because i don't talk about it much um in a way i think this kind of talking and whatever he had to say because i always felt that kevin um had a lot uh work a lot of work in in his time he did a lot of work in his time and uh that i i have to if it's just his presence then i have to feel that presence and start to understand what that presence means you know in my mind and when i'm sleeping so i you know uh that's that's that's how i'm thinking about it and out of that all of that i think uh something will rise something will be and i have the slightest idea i'm excited about it now because at least this black curtain has risen you know i'm not that i'm starting to write again and that wasn't happening and so i'm i'm uh excited about that all i could do was crossword puzzles and and you know that you know it was like going into a black hole or something now i you know i'm i'm really thinking and i can sit down and i can dash off things and and questions and and uh and and and yeah yeah it's different it's a little by little the curtain is coming up the curtain is coming up but you know what i mean yeah absolutely yeah yeah i mean we this talk should go on for for much much longer we're coming towards a bit towards the end so my question is also for you with your you said earlier we see things different you know the time of corona what do you suggest young artists of every color well everyone what should they be thinking about and what should our listeners what's important and what's meaningful how should we use this time well that has to come from the individual each person had an experience i'm sure from the corona and and the protests uh to to dig up uh to discover to to work on there's so many things that you know uh uh i hid or i protected myself or maybe i don't protect myself as much anymore was i got to lose and uh and just you know tell the truth from where it comes and a lot of times uh you experience it you see it you'll feel it and it's going on and you you have to uh let it go you have to let it you have to seal it you have to put it out there uh the protection is you you kind of lick your wounds and go on and and that's what are the people i'm talking to feel either that or uh some silly story comes out but there's an answer there's a reason for that too for where people are for where they are i have a lot of faith in the young people thinking differently because all the people are protecting their ancestors their feelings their mistakes they gotta do a lot of thinking well you know we talked about elders and we're always talking about elders and and how uh you take care of the elders and so forth but i i think that uh young people are talking to the elders and um and more that the young people talk to the elders than the elders talking to the young people uh that's one thing i i i think of that how important it is to share share all these things and and um and then the other thing is that we are storytellers we do big storytelling and uh and what i do is story weaving where i you know i use many stories to bring them together to find the define the the kernel of four stories and is there a kernel in those four stories so i i really want to look at it again and um the group i have now it's it's intergenerational there's gloria and myself and then there are many people uh and then there are the really the young ones you know 24 year olds and 25 year olds that are in there and to to really um be aware that there are older people and as well as the older people being aware that there are young people and and how do you listen to the stories if you're older and you're hearing a story how do you listen to the story in the same way with the young people how do you listen and uh and that's i you know it's the same thing i was saying before i mean that's how i want to approach the scenario now of how do i go back to working in spider woman how do i go back to do to do that and uh yeah yeah and i it's really important as gloria says it's important to um to look at the young ones to look at the young ones and and and listen to what they're saying and also their perception of what's going on because a lot of times they perceive what's the truth that's going on and that because they're young they say oh that doesn't matter they're young a lot of those feelings are the beginning why did my grandmother say that why did my uncle say that where does that come from is that true question listen young people do that yeah because i was thinking that uh i would like to write some um some myths some legends or something that includes the corona virus um some kind of a thing that's was a foretelling and i have no idea what i'm saying but i'm excited at the idea of that's what's happened as i sat down and started to to write like that and um but you know that there are in the creation stories there are so many from one you know group of people that a creation story goes on and on and on and on and you know all these native people have creation stories that go on and on and on and on and i was thinking that's the way we should write now about what's happening in the experience is that these are creation stories we don't know where they're going and and and uh we're going to find out what it means with the corona virus you know what what does is it a foretelling or is it really something that's coming in to destroy all of us and you know people say it's a conspiracy and a lot of yada yada and i i say you know how can you say you know people are dead they're dead i don't care if it's a conspiracy or not they're dead you know and and they're dying it's still dying yeah and so but that comes in too you know of how suspicious people are and uh all of us how suspicious we are and uh all you know that that's some kind of a a myth like that some kind of of a story that goes on and on and on and on that's what i'm thinking in my head how do you how do you how do you take the story and make it go on and on and and from one thing another thing sprouts and from that sprout there's another sprout and uh and see see where it goes yeah yeah that's a quite an interesting and significant advice to say this is a creation story where we do not know where it ends what's coming was in front of us and there are probably thousands of years has been these stories but we are now in a new one and we don't know we're trying to make sense and artists anticipate the future they feel the presence they're on the right side of history so and i like what you said we should be listening you said the older people should listen to the young people the earth we are going to leave to them is important so they we have to listen to them we have to think about them we have to take care of everybody as you said of all people of color and um so this is was really significant and also you what gloria said you know you're not telling stories makes you sick maybe also not hearing all the stories makes you sick there's society is sick because we don't know all the stories because some people don't want them i think they're not as important but actually you know mankind we are much different we're not individuals but maybe we are connected and we we don't take care of all of us um and uh we all suffer in um in some way so um this is really i think this was a very significant contribution of both of you to share with us that painful moment what you go through that also you know connects with so many painful things the file cabinet what you gloria said in life the microaggressions every day every week every year every decade and after so many decades what does it to all of us and it's time for healing and it has to come from the world also towards you and an acknowledgement um of what i think that's that's what has happened is that the what the virus i'm not saying it's good i'm not saying the virus is good but the virus has pushed really pushed a lot of people where they didn't want to be i'm sure yeah i'm certainly don't want to be in the house but i go to the garden and i'm connecting with i'm connecting with the soil and the mud and the birds and that i would not would i would not have done that good and this is also seriously twice for everybody connect to the soil to the earth to the garden to the trees and listen to the birds it's very very very profound series that wise so our centuries poets artists zen must they all have taught us that yeah so what myriale is saying and gloria this is of can change all life can save our lives so really everybody take it serious we are coming now to do the end really thank you i hope also i think ralph pinna from the maize theater said i'm going to change my small space and took some kind of a tv studio i have no know what to do but it's also going to be open maybe you know there's a way for you guys he says i'm going to find a way we had ashley cali here and the med forest team they figured out something on zoom so you were stage managing everybody's in their own homes they figured out some kind of a software maybe if all talk to each other and well actually and you and you can do your spider woman a production from there and and and we learn something you maybe reach many many many audiences they didn't know before tomorrow we have with us daniele francisky from the caribbean from martinique she will tell how does it feel when you're in the caribbean on the islands and so far away and so close in a way to also to the dangers of the virus and the great oigino barbara in danmark the odin's theater a legend a significant thing also of theater um oigino graciously said you know i want to take my time and talk to you and we will listen to him what he has to say about what it's he feels and what he thinks is of significant we will pull price an american actor producer the director like just a working working american actor how does he how does he experience this time of corona and live a yet see from syria who fled syria lives now in bolin she writes theater she's a poet poetry also some to survive some some tv series some how do you call them soap operas in syria but uh so how does it feel for she just had a baby and and she is now in exile and so what does that time due to her so really to our audience thank you thank you for listening it is important for gloria and noriel that to know that you are listening anybody is listening who knows the commissioner for the arts anybody say get these guys a theater it's important new york city should have at least one space of a 90-seat theater where it's a place for native american artists and indigenous artists who could also be a forum for artists from around the world to come not just for them and from all colors but it is of significance as a symbolic way as a meaningful real representation of an imagination in what we do here in america it has something to do with the landscape the country the earth and the closest to them are of course the first nations they have been here for such a long time and they know more about this land than we do and we have to respect that and we have to understand it and take it serious so thanks for howl around for for really for having us vj and sea and the seagull team andy and sun young and again to you listeners please come back listen to us it is so meaning to our artists who are here and perhaps also there's something in there that will be meaningful to you and that art can contribute the richness of our lives and we rethink who we are because we have to change if you want to world to change and it has to be an authentic change and artists are closer to that and both of you again i'm so so sorry to hear about all the sufferings and growing up in new york city we all don't really think how hard that is in what it means in a daily life so um thank you for sharing and and i just want to send out a thank you and love to all of our family and and all of us uh that are there that are still living and even the non-living thank you thank you for being with me we are so sorry to hear the passing of your son and law the members of your company yeah friends it's a it's a very sad sad sad time so thank you and the audience stay safe wear masks wash your hands it is important and we nothing lasts forever not the good things but also not the bad thing so we will be coming out of this but we have to be careful we have to protect ourselves but we also need the time to think to change what needs to be changed so thank you gloria and gloria and gloria so great you got on the ipad for your your first zoom talk this is fantastic thank you all bye bye thank you bye thank you bye bye