 Hello, hello all. Welcome to Eat NATO for Breakfast, episode number 20. This is our last online program next week. Some of us, many of us I hope will actually be in Madrid and we are making our very special last program sort of in-person life with a stream from, I don't know, sitting together rather than just online. So today we wanna draw some conclusions to prepare ourselves for the actual NATO counter-summit that is happening next weekend in Madrid. And that's why we're called on Marco. And Marco Fernandez to assist us with this. He's from Tri-Continental Institute in Dongcheng News. Marco, you are a super real internationalist. You're a Brazilian living in China and you're embedded in different movements where you actually approach global issues and look at sort of international developments from all different angles. We're really super glad to have you on our last online show. How are you? What's breakfast in China? But I know it's afternoon now. As we said already last show, we've learned our lesson. We will only look eastward so that we don't have to wait people early. They hate us for it and we don't want that. How are you, Marco? I'm fine, I'm fine. Well, it's a big honor to be here, especially the last show. I just feel like huge responsibility. The show that started with VJ, right? So, wow, it's, let's try my best. So, breakfast in China. Ooh, there's many different ones, but the one that I like, my classic, at least from big cities and like rushy daily life, it's like a bao. Bao is like a bread, like a wheat flour, like round one, but it's steamed. It's not baked and filled with many stuff like could be different kinds of meat and vegetables. It's very practical. And one thing that I really love, it's the hard-boiled eggs that they have, but they actually, they boil in tea, in black tea. Yeah, so it gets, I mean, they break a little bit the shell, so you got this sort of like seasoning of the tea. So it gets a little bit dark, it's delicious. So this is, for me, it's a classic one. And of course soy milk. This is like the whole combo of daily life. I'm beginning to think we will stop always trying to understand politics. We'll just do recipes of the world from now on. I think this is something we need to work on. That's an idea for next show. Talk about politics, why we cook international working class food. Yes, for that we'll need a show kitchen that allows us to do so. But yes, we'll keep that in mind. We'll talk later about what our plans are in the future. And now this is a whole new plan. Nora, how are you doing this morning? Well, I think that even though next week will be our last meeting for breakfast, I think I will miss the Saturday morning conversations. So let's think of the next steps. Because if not, I'm going to call you every Saturday morning on the phone to talk about what's going on on the world. I believe that our guests have been providing us with some very important analysis with proposals. They have explained to us historical processes, which are vital for understanding what's going on today. They have also tackled many issues related to NATO and war. And we have managed to assemble a global map of the causes of this crisis that we are experiencing. And also very important, the importance of fighting for peace for another democratic world order, which resolves conflict through dialogue and negotiation. So we encourage you all to revisit the previous episodes of the NATO for Breakfast if you miss some of them. The folks at People's Dispatch have them organized in a YouTube playlist. So you can just check the one you missed. And I think they are topics that do not expire. And that can make us think about them whenever you watch them. But above all, I would like our audience to take away that we have a lot of work to do ahead of us, that we have to fight for peace, that peace is not an idea, just an idea at least, and that wars are not inevitable. So when we are organized, we can change things. So Francie, and how do you feel about the end of NATO for Breakfast? I think you already heard, I'm not particularly sentimental about it. I'm just feeling that after 20 shows, I think we've all learned quite a bit. And I think I would like to, together with our friends at People's Dispatch and everyone else who's been on the show, I'd like to think of new things that we can come up with. And now it turns out Marco and I will do a cooking show. That's awesome. But no, let's get started. Let's get back to serious business. Let us start with actually addressing the NATO question once more. Yeah, but before, maybe if people, if our audience have any idea of what to do next, maybe they can post their ideas. Yes, tell us what you feel about a cooking program or share with us, what do you think? Yeah, but let's start. During these 20 programs, we have understand some very important facts that before the war in Ukraine, NATO's project was not at the center of the political agenda of the allies countries. And now crazy amounts of money is been spending weapons before this war NATO was even contested by some countries in the European Union that wanted their own regional security project. Now we see Finland and Sweden joining NATO. We also know that NATO strategy is the US strategy to maintain its unipolar project. And with this war, the US has imposed its agenda, the fact in a European Union that before was balancing its economic and trade relations with Russia and China. We even have again in our conversations the risk of nuclear war. So things have been changing somehow. That's why we want to talk to you Marco in this first block that now almost four months after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, what have been the major developments in the world order? Or is everything stuck? What is on the move? Well, I think there things are accelerating a lot. And I would say this is like the, it's like a wall saying that there are new things and good things. The new things are not good and the good things are not new. So what are the new things? The new things are not already said. It's true. US was able to reunify NATO under its leadership. You know, I was watching a video preparing for this conversation, this famous video of Trump. Remember that the meeting with the Trump with Stoltenberg, I think is the military head of NATO a few years ago. And he was basically like beating up Stoltenberg saying, you guys ask us for money to defend you guys from Russia. And then you go there and you sell and you buy billions of dollars in gas and oil from Russia. And then Russia gets stronger. And then you guys come back here ask more money to defend yourselves. So, I mean, that was what's happening. I mean, you're totally right. So, I mean, Biden was able to reunify, not only reunify NATO, but to impose Europe, which is I still don't understand you guys from Europe. You can explain better, but I don't understand what is the logic behind, because it's so, it's almost like Suicide or what Europe is doing right now. But it's true. It's not only, I mean, Finland, Sweden are joining. And if I'm not wrong, looks like Japan and South Korea are going to attend the meeting. This is what we were reading here in the Chinese media yesterday. That's gonna be the first time in history that Japan and South Korea are gonna attend the meeting. So this is very worried, very worried. And at the same time, as you said, it's the risk of nuclear war is again, it's again. But at the same time, this was a victory from US, but also might be a short term victory. First of all, they weren't able to crush Russia with the sanctions. That's the truth. I mean, you can't just crush a country with huge amounts of food, fertilizer and energy and military powerful. It's not easy to crush a country like that. I mean, no matter what, I mean, it's not about ideological discussion right now. This is objective. You can't crush a country like US or NATO is expecting to do with Russia with the sanctions. So at the same time, as we know, European Union economy is doing very bad. Like highest inflation in 40 years, not only in Europe, also in US. They are losing competitiveness in Europe. Because of energy prices, this is crazy. I imagine that at some point, the big bourgeoisie, industrial bourgeoisie of Germany, they are gonna complain and probably already complain to shorts because that's not possible. US now, it's also having like a very bad economic moment. Even like the stock markets that were doing great during COVID, people were dying, but stock markets were great in US. They just had the worst first quarter since 1932, since that was Great Depression times. So that's the, and you have stagflation, all the money they buy and put like $5 trillion in the economy went all to consumption. There's no like new fixed assets, investments, infrastructure investments. So this is not sustainable. And there are many signs already in the last weeks, even in the media in US that they know that Ukraine is gonna lose this war and they will have to reorganize. And at the same time, global South countries are also realizing some important things during this four months. Nothing new again, but it's clear. Their interests are not the same as US and NATO, right? I mean, they need China, they need Russia. They are not going to join this white supremacist crusade of the Western with Japan and South Korea. They're not white, but all the rest are. So even India, I mean, Vijay Prashat is publishing just an article about that, how even India and Prashat also talk about that last week, right? Like big ally of US, but I mean, now come on guys, we need energy, we need food. I mean, we are not going to just join you because you guys have nice blue eyes. That's not gonna happen. So at the same time, even like countries like Brazil, also super pro US, Bolsonaro government, guess what? The agribusiness would say, come on, we need fertilizers. And I mean, we're not gonna have like sanctioned Russia just because you guys want to destroy the country. So I think this is getting clear. And then also one thing that I think this war also one of the lessons for the global South countries clear now is that we need to build alternative to the US dollar. This is clear, I mean, we cannot, global South countries cannot depend heavily on US dollars as we do now. Of course, this is not something that you change in six months, but it's not coincidence that so many, I mean, this discussion is all around the world right now. You take like the Euro is Asiatic Economic Union. They are joining with China and discussing under the leadership of a director, Sergei Glazeev, which is former Putin minister, is now putting up like a plan for like alternative, not necessarily like a new currency, but at least a sort of like a mechanism. Same is happening right now in Brazil. Lula, who is probably gonna win the election is discussing also this in South America. There is already actually a mechanism in Argentina, Brazil or Paraguay, they have a mechanism already to do transactions without the dollar, but it's still not that used. But I mean, this kind of discussions are all around the globe right now. So at the end of the day, what US did, and this is even like US analysts are saying that, it was also like a shoot in the food because people realize now, okay, if they can just steal our assets like this, $300 billion with like two signatures in a paper and a button, they just steal like $300 billion from Russia, from foreign assets. They did the same with Venezuela before, they did the same with Afghanistan, but now of course it's Russia and it's $300 billion. So I think there's a lot of lessons to the global South countries. And at the same time, of course, this war is accelerating, accelerating all these discussions and the necessity to create alternatives. So this also reminds me a lot of Vladimir, not Putin, but Lenin, that remember there's a famous sentence say, there are decades when nothing happens, but there are weeks in which decades happens. So this is I think what happened in these last four months. It's a big acceleration of history. And of course, I mean, many, many alternatives, many discussions of alternatives are happening right now, all around the globe, especially in the global South. And I think this will be a game changer for the next years. Thank you, that's a very good overview to begin with. I think the way you talk about the global South countries and how different countries have reacted in this moment around Ukraine and sanctioning Russia, we already heard last week, you mentioned it from Prasant, who was giving us a little bit of a tour of what the non-aligned movement meant for India, which no India played. And I think since we heard about India last week, and there was also a bit of history that Prasant was able to explain to us, it would be really good to look at that again, this time from the perspective more of your former home country, Brazil. Let's look at Latin America a little bit and how the non-aligned movement like historically played out. And are we moving towards this again? Because this is what you're describing a little bit with some of those countries, even unexpectedly taking same stop to certain, I don't know, following the rules, certain alliances with the US, following the US's lead. Are we seeing the development of a non-aligned movement? And is that an inspiration? Is that something we wanna cheer on? Or what does it mean historically? And what do you see this happening again? Okay, so I hope Vijay is not going to watch this because he's a big fan of the idea. No, I mean, first of all, the non-aligned movement, it's true, I mean, Latin America was different because at that moment in the most important, like the high moment of the non-aligned movement, Latin America was mostly run by right wing and even like military dictatorships. So we didn't actually, I mean, the country actually was one of the protagonists was of course Cuba. And Cuba was a very important moment to Cuba because Cuba was also building its international influence and maybe all the participation in Africa, the fight against apartheid, national liberation. So Cuba had major role. But for instance, like in South American countries, nobody was taking part of that. So it's not for us in our history, at that point, of course, the left was very influenced by Cuba, but because the states were not part of this, so it didn't have like such a great influence on us in Latin America, in the Caribbean, I mean, apart from Cuba of course, but it's true. I mean, the spirit of non-aligned movement, this is looks like this is being revitalized right now. I mean, if you take all the ideas of anti-imperialism, international solidarity, even like artistic networks that were formed at that point, especially between Africa and Asia with like a big participation, of course, of China. So, I mean, if you take the five principles, I mean, who could be against this? Of course, the empire could be, but not us. Like the mutual respect for territorial integrity, non-aggression, non-interference, domestic affairs. This is what I mean, China says is every single day to the US, right? Equality and mutual benefit, peaceful coexistence. Of course, this is what the spirit that we need now, and I think the spirit that is being rebuilt in the global south. The only thing, of course, this is a matter of like name, how we call this, how we call that. I mean, I particularly, I don't, I think we have to create also new names for new historical moments. So it's not the same configuration of the Cold War, but that's not the main point. The main point is the spirit, and the spirit is there. And the spirit is there, for instance, I don't know if you guys saw it, I think it was a few days ago, this proposal from Russia of the creation of a so-called G8 Plus. So that would be our G8, would be the BRIC countries, South Africa is still not in the list, but should, it should, but will be Brazil, Russia, India, China, Mexico, Turkey, Iran, and Indonesia. I mean, if you take these eight countries, you say, oh, okay, global south countries. But these countries in GDP, the PPP, the parity power purchase, their GDP of these eight countries are 24% bigger than the G7, the Bayer G7. So this is not a small thing, right? So, and even the BRICs, I mean, next week is gonna be very interesting. The journalists will be crazy working because you have the NATO, you have the NATO meeting, but you also have the BRICs meeting the same week and will be in hell, I mean, hosted by China, still online, unfortunately, but it's gonna be at the same time. So I think it's also gonna be a very interesting week to compare the proposals and, I mean, what's at stake at this moment. But I mean, they're discussing also the expansion of BRICs, that not necessarily is gonna be this G8 Plus, but maybe it's gonna commingo, we don't know, but Argentina, for instance, being discussed as a possible name, Indonesia's being discussed as a possible name, Nigeria and Senegal in Africa, beyond South Africa. So I think it's a very, and Salak is coming back. We're gonna talk more about this still later this show, but Salak is coming back. So it's not a coincidence that so many platforms are being reorganized and being proposed because this is the reaction against the aggressiveness of NATO and US. So I think it's a very exciting moment, a very dangerous moment, of course, but it also a very exciting moment because, as Lenny would say, this is like weeks where decades are happening. Yeah, and I think that thinking about blocks that is like what we have been discussing this in the middle for breakfast is coming back of the Cold War mentality. Regarding this idea of blocks, recently you wrote an article about why Latin America needs a new world order. In case you missed it, by the way, we will post the link in the chat, but in the article you talk about the necessity of regional projects and why China's relation is important to this. You pointed out that this NATO project has aroused a backlash around the global south and also even though the US has succeeded in revitalizing NATO, as we were saying, and military expenditure is skyrocketing, countries like mine are following NATO blindly, promising the 2% of GDP or cutting ties with Russia and buying gas from the US, but the US recently failed at this summit of the Americas. We saw an exclusionary and imperialist understanding of the whole region that Biden says is not only the backyard of the USA, but the front yard, like we don't know even what to think about that. And we saw people's summit for democracy full of people, grassroots organizations of the whole region discussing their own future. We'll leave you the link also of the panels of the People Summit if you missed it and also check out the amazing coverage that was done by People's Dispatch. And also you said in your article, something very interesting, Marco, that Latin America wants peace and that the global south might be prepared to reemerge by the end of the year and create an espade for itself within the world order. So please explain to us a bit on how Latin America, US, NATO and China also are related and what can be expected next week at the NATO summit regarding changes in the world order. Okay, so first this issue of Biden. I mean, you know, the Americans, even when they try to be nice, they're awful. So actually this speech of Biden, like maybe two months ago, he was in a White House. So somebody made this comment about, oh, the Latin America is a backyard of US. I said, no, no, Latin America is not our backyard. Latin America is our front yard. That was the thing. Like, okay, you guys are in the front, not in the back. Come on, guys, we don't wanna be yards, any one's yard. We wanna build our house and I'm gonna live in the house. So this is the mentality of US and this mentality, as you said, was expressed in the summit of America because, I mean, US has this issue. I mean, they always are trying to divide everybody and of course, submit, but people are fed with that. So, I mean, it was a total failure, what happened. Imagine that 12 out of 35 presidents didn't show up. It was Mexico, of course, it was Bolivia, Honduras, Guatemala, but many other countries didn't show up. And even like Argentina, Alberto Fernandez from Argentina, he went, but he said, I'm coming here as official president, a pro tem body of Celac and I'm coming here to criticize this summit. And so that was the vibe of the summit. And by the way, very important statement from Fernandez because what he said was, you know, I mean, talk about the Cuban embargo. They said, I mean, this embargo since 1966, this is a genocide. He called Cuban embargo a genocide. And by the way, also things were discussed in the people summit, the real summit of Americas. But by the way, Cuban president was Nikolas Maduro from Venezuela was even like ex-president Evo Morales was. You know that some studies says that in Venezuela, because of US sanctions, 40,000 people died because of lack of access to food and medicine, for instance. So this is US politics from Latin America. So how can you expect the countries in Latin America were just gonna like submit themselves to that? And of course right now, we have another sort of like a wave of progressive governments that is growing again. So we have Mexico, you have Peru, you have, of course, Cuba, Venezuela, always there, Honduras, I mean, Chile, let's see. But especially now you have the organization of Celac. I mean, Celac didn't meet for four years since 2017. And why that happened? Because it was a moment that was the rise of a right wing in some countries, like Brazil especially in 2016. And also Venezuela, there was another key actor of Celac was being massively attacked by US sanctions. So it got weakened. So Celac actually withdrew in 2017. So it was four years without any summit meeting. And they just met last September in Mexico City under the leadership of President Lopez Obrador from Mexico and Alberto Fernandez from Argentina. So they are meeting again in December. You know, tomorrow in a few hours, we're gonna have a historical moment for Latin America which are the Colombian elections. We still don't know the results. It's actually very, it's very like 50-50 now. But there is a chance for the first time in the history of Colombia that a leftist president will run the country. And this is not only about being a leftist in Colombia. The thing is that Colombia is the real backyard of US in the last decades in South America. Colombia has like seven US military bases. Colombia is like almost like NATO. It's the closest of NATO we have exactly, exactly. So I mean, all the military industrial complex of US and the relationship with the so-called war on drugs. And I mean, it's huge. If US loses Colombia, it's gonna be a big blow. And in October, we have elections in Brazil. And well, by the way, Lula is running. I mean, it's way ahead of Bolsonaro now in the polls, but we don't know. They might try something. We have to be very careful. But if Lula, even if Petro doesn't win, it would be bad. But if Lula wins in October, this would be a game changer, not only for South America. It's gonna be a big game changer for the world. Imagine like a few months ago, Steve Bannon, the ex-Trump advisor, usually he is 99% wrong. But I think this time he was right. He said, this is the most important elections of the history of South America. And he might be right. Because it's not only about Brazil. It's not only about Latin America and Caribbean and Sillac. It's about bricks. And it's about bringing back Brazil to the center of the job political table in such a moment. And Brazil being like a huge country, a big economy and having Lula that, by the way, we are lacking global leaders at this point. So this is something that also having Lula back again, this would be something like another level, I think, of the whole situation. So let's see. I mean, we can have this meeting in December of Sillac with a very different scenario for the continent. And just lastly about China, yeah, it's true. I mean, this is also something that would be a game changer for the relationship between Latin America and China, which is already like a very important relationship, as we know commercially, for instance, the trade grew from 18.9 billion dollars in 2002. To 449 billion dollars last year. So it's huge what's happening up right now and like $200 investments and funding in the last 15 years. But I think one thing that we need a stronger Sillac is that the relationship and now we're finishing this topic, the relationship between China and Latin America is very important for Latin America, China and Latin America is very important for Latin America commercially, economically, absolutely. But we need to improve the conditions of this relationship because right now basically Latin America, we export commodities to China. It's okay, China needs 1.4 billion people, 28% of the manufacturing of the world, they need natural resources of course, but we need more than just import cell phones and computers and machines from China. We need technology transfer. We have countries with huge industrial bases like Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Colombia and we need more than that. And there are already things happening in this sense. But definitely as I was saying, I mean, Latin America needs like a stronger leverage also to discuss with China of course, because job politics, there's no friends, right? There's interest. So of course our interests are very much aligned right now against NATO, against the empire, but we also need a little bit better conditions with China. And China is not, China, I don't think China is, China is willing to discuss this kind of things, but we have to propose. That's the problem. We're not proposing right now. Brazil is not proposing anything to China, different from just export soy and oil and beef and mining. We're not doing that. If we do, like Argentina has been doing lately, probably China would be very willing to have discussions about, for instance, technology transfer to some of our countries. So I think this is, again, I think the next months will be decisive to maybe the history of Latin America for the next 10, 20 years. So let's see, I'm a little bit optimistic for the first time in many years actually in our continent. You work just to continue on the China threat. You are working also, you do a lot of work for Don Cheng News where you are exactly exploring these type of relationships and where you are in some sense countering or at least expanding the very, very uniform voices that you hear in the West about relations to China. Like things like looking at, is China just another colonizer for Africa and Latin America is a common thread that we hear in the West. We don't often hear voices from China. We don't often get the Chinese perspective. So at Don Cheng News, we will put the link in the chat. This is something that you work on actually exploring all these other more intricate relationships and it's, as you said, I think this is really important to remember. It is not all about being friends. It is all about the different interests and how they align. So I leave this to the people to all read the Don Cheng News and subscribe to the newsletter. I have a really unscientific question that just interests me. I have been to China very briefly once I would never even say that I've been long enough there to say anything about the country and certainly with all the inability to speak the language, et cetera, et cetera, it's not even, I can't even imagine to judge anything there. But I'm wondering what these types of, what these conversations are on the street. I already said in the West, the general conversation is very uniform. It is very much demonizing China. Sometimes from the one side saying, this is too capitalist, like the left will say, this is just a, you know, all these different terms, state capitalism, capitalism, this is just hidden. And then from the right, because of course it's a communist dictatorship. So there's sort of a demonization that goes in all different directions. One thing everyone is sure on, it's not democratic enough. The democratic values are not being held up. Again, whether from the right or from the left doesn't even matter. And what I find interesting or what I often witness is it seems that everyone somehow has something to say on this. And it seems that people in general who are not very, you know, who are not always engaged in daily politics will have some type of, but objectively, I've heard that China really isn't all that good either. And then comes this way or that way, some concern or criticism of the country. And I would like to know whether this is something, like whether the Chinese people are spending as much time judging, scrutinizing, criticizing, giving unsolicited advice to the United States or more interestingly to Europe, because we're sitting here now talking from Europe and preparing for the Madrid NATO summit. So is that a sport? Like this in China seems to be a European sport. Is it the same in China? And I know it's an unscientific question that you can at best give anecdotal evidence. I understand, but I'm really curious about that. I think there's China in the last 40 years. China, of course, most of the energy, the focus of international relations was towards the Western powers, right? US, Europe, Canada, even Australia. So of course they did this for a strategic reasons because they need technology transferred, they need finance, they need everything to their development. But this also created a weird ideological configuration in the country. Of course, I mean, economy, money, technology also comes with ideas. And it's, I mean, I didn't have ideas, I still, I mean, until I came to leave here and I was shocked that the size of the big influence of Western thought and even now liberalism here in many circles in China. If you get now like, I don't know, scholars in China, this is like people debate here, some friends, but maybe 70, 80% of the scholars in China in the top universities, they love the West. They are pro-Western. So it's actually the opposite. I mean, if you're asking, oh, but in China, they like criticize in Europe and US, I think they have to criticize more. That's the problem of China. They were too much enchanted by Western ideas, by Western ideologies in the last 40 years. And it's interesting because this is changing. This is a big shift that is happening in the country now. And of course, it has a lot to do with the attitude of US and Europe against China. Because if you take like big cities, you talk to like young people like five, 10 years ago, they are dreamers maybe to live in US. As millions of them went to study in US and UK and they still do. So actually, I think to hear that what's happening now in China is big part of the youth, it's realizing how much US and Europe are not friends and not gonna be friends. You know, there was like a report from a very important think tank from China, which is part of the state council with how they call the ministries, the whole, all the ministries. So this thing thinks called Chongyang, they are related to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of China. So they did this report and I mean, they historically, their task was to deal with US and create relations, study like the US-China relations. So they were very historically very close to the US and to peers in the US. So they did this report recently, basically the conclusion is China has to give up any illusion of skipping the rivalry of United States and more China, we don't want that, we want to avoid that, but China has to be prepared for eventual war against the US regarding Taiwan, of course. So this is like two weeks ago and I can give you one more example of how the mood of the people here are changing regarding especially US. So last year, we had like the biggest blockbuster movie in Chinese cinemas was a movie called The Battle of Lake Changi. This was a battle during the so-called the Korean War. Here they say the war against the, resistance against the invasion of US and United Nations, et cetera. And it started directly with the Korean people. So imagine that in 2019, I was talking to a professor here at university and was at that moment that you remember that was the beginning of the trade war and Trump was really like going after China was a week that the very like heavy negotiation happened. And then I talked to him and I asked him about the trade war and he said something interesting. He said, you know, less this week, the Chinese CCTV, they have many channels, they broadcast a movie about the Korean War, not this one, but like a classic one from the 50s or 60s. He said, you know, that's the first time that the Chinese television broadcast this movie in 30 years. So for 30 years, they didn't discuss a Korean War here. They didn't want to discuss that because, okay, let's be friends of US, this is the past, let's move ahead. So this was 2019. So last year, you have this movie that the box office of this movie is more than $1 billion. This is the biggest box office of the history of the Chinese movies. And this is basically a three hours of, this was a battle between China and US and against US because Koreans were not in this battle. So imagine that a movie, of course, I mean, we are here in this program and in the fighting for peace. But I think I just wanted to transmit this sentiment, popular sentiment that it's getting dangerous what US is doing against China. But they are prepared for that. And this sentiment of, okay, US is actually probably a threat to us. It's growing in Chinese population. And after this movie, you had like that of leg chunking to, you had many other movies about Korean War, you have a TV series about Korean War, you have documentaries. This is like a big discussion now in the country. And I think it shows a little bit of the shift. And at the same time, this same youth that is going to watch this movie is also very interesting in reading Mao again. It's very interesting in Marxism again. So it's also there's a revitalization of socialist ideas, of Maoist ideas, which I think it's a big shift that's happening in China, especially I think in the last three years, three, two years. So. Yeah, things are changing. And thank you very much for this overview because sometimes I don't know, like at least in the Western media, they talk about China, like if China, in China, nobody lives there. Like if people doesn't exist, like it's only Xi Jinping doing everything alone. So it's nice to have this kind of measures of what actually the movies are, what are the interests? How is the investment? Like this kind of connection with material reality that explains a lot of things because we need also to understand China, whatever your opinion is, because we live with them and they have a major role in the world. So these kind of exchanges are really, really important. Now we want to wrap up with going back to NATO by talking about some of the things that we've been talking more intentionally. So what are the key points of the next NATO strategic concept? We know that they change from the world of terror to the Cold War. So what are the key points that we are going to hear on the end of Union Madrid? And also the difficult question. Connecting this next NATO strategic concept, what do you think is the most important outcome for this peace movement and anti-war organizations after this NATO summit? What are the necessary changes to commit to an actual common peace strategy and not only mention peace in manifestos? I think my Trinidad is bad. I didn't listen to you. You have to answer that, Marco. This is a hard question. Let's ask Vladimir again, not putting Lenny what to do. So I don't know. I mean, there's not a recipe for every region of the world. I think the political realities are very different. One thing that of course, I mean, I'm assuming you guys from Europe, probably it's harder because I mean, you are in another, the second belly of the beast. And we know that unfortunately, European left is not always strong anti-imperialist and it's very like eager to be against global self countries, right? Either like Venezuela or Cuba or China or Russia. I mean, there's always a problem with global self countries, which I think it's very difficult for us to think about, I mean, how to deal with the threats of the war if you don't have allies and the allies are not going to come from Germany, bourgeoisie, it's gonna come from global self countries. All the contradictions we have, of course, I mean, it's again, the spirit of non-aligned movement. It was not a leftist movement, I mean, absolutely not. But this is not only a left coalition that we need now because peace, I mean, it's, war and peace is not only a discussion. I mean, it's beyond, of course, like grassroots organizations and people's movements. This is like a state discussion. What I think is the role of the people's movements or should be the role of people's movements, of course, it's just to put pressure on the governments to take position against the empire. And I think in this situation, it's of course, probably Latin America now has better conditions again for the movements to pressure some of the governments of the region. But again, I don't think it's hard to say, I mean, what to do in Asia, for instance, I mean, this is probably gonna be much more a discussion in the level of the states, like state level. And of course, I mean, again, I know that this is a very controversial topic in Europe, but I'm sorry, we can't avoid Russia. We can't just isolate Russia and think, oh, there's evil Russians and because I mean, for peace, we also need them. I mean, of course, they are in the middle of the war right now, but who is the one who had any power of deterrence against United States and NATO right now if it's not Russia and China? So this is the kind of discussions that it's really hard, of course, to do in some of the leftist circles that we leave and we discuss with. But I don't think, I mean, this is geopolitics. This is like big picture. This is not about only the pure and the nice people in the room. So I think, again, there's no way out for the global south and there's no way out against like a real threat of war if the regional platforms of the global south are not stronger, but even though, to be honest, even though, because I think the biggest problem we have now is that United States know that by like only economical measures, they are not going to avoid, they're not gonna win the competition against China. They know that. And that's I think the big problem we have right now because they might try something radical because they know that if they just allow China to grow and even now with all the new configurations with all the new alliances in the global south, I mean, global south, we get stronger. So I mean, I don't know if you saw yesterday, they were this, I mean, starting again, there's discussion and there's speeches in the US saying, oh, the straight of Taiwan is international waters. This is a huge provocation. You can't say that, like, this is coast of China. You cannot say now that the coast of China is international water and you'd expect that, okay, there's gonna be any reactions. So I mean, I think I'm worried. Everything is our worry, but at the same time as I was saying, this is also a moment of opportunities for the global south. And I think that, I mean, in Latin America, movements have to be stronger and put pressure on the governments, Africa is a bit different, but still the African countries, most of the governments, they don't wanna, of course, nobody wants the war. Only the industrial military complex of US wants the war and some of crazy European presidents right now. The world doesn't want the war. So I think this is our strength because most of the people and most of the countries in the world, they don't want a war. So, exciting moments, dangerous and exciting. Thank you. I think those are really good words for sort of send off into the week of the summit. Thank you for that, Marco. If any of you are coming to Madrid who are listening now or watching this later, we'll be discussing a lot of those questions and other important topics at the Marcelino Camacho's auditorium on Friday evening and Saturday all day. We'll have panels and discussions and workshops. We will have translation, English and Spanish for some of these events. And you can look for us in special workshops on Saturday and think more about what perspectives for peace are there and what does this look like, what we want to accomplish together. There'll be a demonstration in Madrid. It'll be at noon on the Sunday of the 26th from Atolcha to Plaza de España showing our commitment for peace and against NATO and against the wars in general. I want to thank you all. We have obviously not learned to stay in time at all. So we are way over time. Sorry for that. But I really, no, no, no, but I really want to say thank you. I think it was really helpful. And I think those were really good words to start out this counter summit with and also very, very good moments too. What should we be looking for? What should we be looking for when we listen to the first press conferences coming out of the NATO summit? What is being told to us and how we should understand and interpret what we are being told? So I want to thank you very much, Marco, for joining us. Thank you, Nora, and I will see you in Madrid and all of you hopefully next week from Madrid. Thank you so much. Bye-bye. Thank you.