 Welcome to the Valley Advocate Podcast, featuring interviews that take us deeper into the people and happenings on the local scene. For more podcasts and a closer look at what's going on in the Valley, visit us at valleyadvocate.com. Hello, welcome to the Valley Advocate Podcast. My name is Dave Eisenstadt, I'm the editor of the Advocate and I'm here with arts editor Gina Beavers. And we are here today with Meg Bantel. She is a columnist who writes, oh, cannabis for us at the Advocate. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Thank you. So what's going on in the world of cannabis? Sure. Well, I just wrote an article this week about how Vermont is the first state to pass recreational cannabis through the legislature. So that's exciting because most other states have done it, all other states have done it through ballot initiatives. So this is kind of a big move, especially because a lot of other states in the country are looking to do this same kind of legislation this year or later this year potentially. So Vermont did it. It doesn't legalize sale, but you can possess for personal use up to an ounce if you're an adult, 21 or older. So that's pretty exciting. Yeah. I think it's fascinating that it actually went through the legislature because it seems like every single, I mean, you just said every single other place that this has happened, it's been up to the voters to kind of force it through moving around a legislature that didn't want to act on it themselves. So what do you think the difference in Vermont was? Well, they are a more progressive state, but interestingly, they don't have a ballot initiative process, which is kind of different. You would think that they would as a progressive state. And there is mixed support for it there. They have a Republican governor, as we do in Massachusetts, and he said in his press release that he signed the bill with mixed emotions. So it's not exactly... Whatever that means. Yeah, it's not something that everyone is excited about there, and I think the politicians who I spoke to who did vote it through said there's a lot of cannabis in Vermont already. The more we can regulate it, the safer people will be, and potentially the more benefits that the state can get from the cannabis industry, whereas right now it's all under the table and the state has no chance of ever potentially taxing it for revenue or things like that. Because there is no sale. Right, there's no sale, and that's still no sale. Because of July 1st, you'll be able to possess up to an ounce and grow two to four plants, I believe. So in Vermont, you basically have to grow it and give it to people. You can't... Yeah. Yeah, there will be no recreational sale at this time at this point, yeah. So how's that different in Massachusetts? So come July in Massachusetts, they will be legalizing recreational sale if everything goes to plan. Okay. So right now, it's kind of like Vermont, we're in this limbo right now where we can possess up to a certain amount legally for recreational purposes and grow up to a certain amount, but we can't sell it. And so that is the state that Vermont is going to be in indefinitely until they decide to do something else. So as Massachusetts is working on more progressions so that come summer, people will be able to open businesses where they could sell recreational marijuana. Yeah, you wrote this great story a few weeks ago about everyone's favorite attorney general, Jeff Sessions, saying that actually all of these procedures that we had in place under Obama are now rescinded and we are going to start going after marijuana users in states where they've legalized it. And so it's kind of like, is it legal or is it legal? Right, yeah. That really threw a wrench in things in mass where people were starting to get excited. He basically under Obama, an attorney general had come out and said, you know, it's still illegal, but we're not going to be focusing on it. It's not something that we're going to be putting resources towards. And so Sessions came out and basically took those guidelines away saying, you know, no, we are going to be focusing on it. And then the Massachusetts, I forget his title, his name is Andrew Leland. He's the attorney appointed under the Trump administration, the federal attorney in Massachusetts. He came out and he could have said, you know, Massachusetts resources aren't going to be going towards prosecuting cannabis based on state laws, but instead he kind of agreed with Sessions and said, you know, this is the law and we're going to be prosecuting people and there's always a risk because, you know, possession and sales are illegal. So a lot of people were less mad about Sessions and more mad about Lelling because, you know, other appointed state officials in states like, I believe it was the two people in Oregon and Colorado kind of, you know, came out against Sessions and said, we're going to be leaning on state, the state guidelines. But Lelling kind of put his foot down and said, you know, no, it's illegal and, you know, you can't, we could, you don't know if we're going to come after you. And then, but then just this week, he came out and not a press release, but this is the email I sent you. He held a press conference where he said that he was more concerned about the opioid epidemic and that cannabis doesn't pose as big of a threat as opioids. So I don't, I don't know, I haven't quite talked to people since that happened just this week, but I think that kind of signals that, you know, he's not actually that concerned about cannabis in the state. So hopefully people can start to relax a little bit more. And, and the reason all this matters is that with, you know, without, if people are worried that the federal government is going to come after them, it's less about the personal user and more about, you know, banks who are funding businesses who want to open. And as we kind of mentioned earlier, the, the note that came out from sessions caused banks to stop their, you know, stop moving forward in investing in businesses and caused even medical marijuana facilities to start only using cash interactions. Right. So that's a lot of cash moving in and out of those places and, you know, forces the customer to bring cash, which is a security risk. So it all really was a big mess, you know, and I'm sure, I'm sure that's just what sessions wanted. Yeah. No doubt. So I mean, we talked a lot about kind of like the politics of we, but you've, you've written a bunch of stuff like about, you know, topical marijuana versus ingesting marijuana and just other kind of aspects of it. And I'm just kind of curious if you can talk a little bit about like, you know, just the, the physical plant and, you know, just like, just things about marijuana too. Well, where to start? I'll start with some of the terms I've learned through my, a couple of articles. So THC is, I can't, I'd actually don't know the full word for it, but THC is what they call a cannabinoid. And there are, that is the cannabinoid in can, in the cannabis plant that has psychotropic effects. So that's what makes you feel high. But there are at least 80 different kinds of cannabinoids in the cannabis plant, including CBD, which is the other better known one that you can, you'll see legal now. If you go into a head shop or a tobacco shop, they'll have CBD products. And that doesn't cause a psychotropic effect. But, you know, is said to help with, you know, being anti-inflammatory and all kinds of, you know, medicinal effects. So people still take it. I interviewed someone who said that they put it on a tumor that their dog had and the tumor just shrunk by itself, you know, after putting the CBD on it. So, you know, people really have, have evidence that, you know, even that cannabinoid works, and that has no psychotropic effects. So that, you know, even if you ingest it, can't cause a high. So that was also the coffee I drank when I interviewed, I interviewed a woman who wants to open a cannabis cafe in East Hampton. And she couldn't give me a THC product at the moment. But she could give me a coffee that was made with coffee beans that were roasted with CBD. So I didn't really feel high, maybe felt a little more relaxed than you coffee that makes you relax. Yeah. So when, when medical marijuana companies are putting out products like a topical cream, what they're doing is kind of engineering all of these different cannabinoids in a certain way that is particularly effective for the result they want. So, yeah, so that's really interesting to hear, you know, the scientists who are doing that, they're really thinking it's not just, you know, like you think of putting the plant in a pot with some butter and then, you know, that's the only way to do it. They're really kind of isolating the different aspects of the plant and creating specific medicinal effects. As we're kind of getting more and more into pot being legal territory, it seems like, like a lot of people are afraid of getting high, but it's like they still want the medicinal effects. And it's kind of like there are products geared to those people. Like you don't have to get high from using cannabis, which is kind of, it's just kind of interesting if there's that whole market that maybe people didn't even think about being there. Yeah. I think the other thing is that a lot of people don't want to smoke. And in, in the Massachusetts law, they're, if they legalize something like a cannabis cafe, kind of Amsterdam style cannabis cafe, they won't, it won't include smoking because of air pollution and air quality control issues. So that's, I mean, preferable for a lot of people also. And something I'm researching right now is this, the process, and I'm going to make sure I get this right, decarboxylation, which is a very long, a very long word for burning, like why you smoke marijuana, basically, it's just cooking it. So basically, if you didn't cook the marijuana before ingesting it, you, you would have to have a lot of it to get high. And it's this whole kind of scientific process of separating the THC, you know, transforming the THC from its original form to a different form that, that's then accessible to your, to your body. So I had this really interesting interview with a woman in Boston who owns a business called Ardent. And she created a decarboxylator, which is this little machine. It's, it kind of works like a little oven. And, but it's more regulated. So all you have to do is press a button and it will cook your. Easy bake. Yeah. Easy bake oven. Yeah, it's like, it is, it is. It's like easy bake medicinal marijuana because you just press a button and then it is perfectly decarboxylated. So it becomes a lot easier to work with medicinally because you, it's more predictable in terms of dosage, you know, you get a hundred percent conversion from one state to another. Whereas, you know, when you're burning, you're turning a lot into ash. And, you know, there's, it's really hard to tell. You have, you really have no way to tell, oh, I, I converted all of the THC into a usable form. Like more likely you converted like 50% of it and burned the rest away. So I think that would be fascinating if like some time in the future, a few years in the future that nobody smokes marijuana anymore. That's like an old fashioned thing. Everyone just has a little decarbon. Decarboxylator. It's really cool. She's, she's an amazing business owner and, and her name's Chanel Lindsay just to make sure I get her name out there. But the, it's really interesting machine. And I'm excited to talk to people about their current decarboxylating processes, you know, for people who maybe are making candies or edibles at home. You know, how, how do they go about doing that? Because people do it in their oven or in a, in a water bath. But as she said, you know, she tried that for several years and eventually found out that she was getting really poor results compared to, you know, so she invented, you know, worked with designers to invent this machine that gives you almost 100%. And that, yeah, it's just really if you're someone who has trouble, you know, affording medical products from a medical dispensary, this could be a way to, you know, dose yourself because you can just predict more regularly just the weed that you're getting from a friend or that you're growing yourself, how that converts down the line to, you know, the candy, the brownie, the tincture. Whereas, you know, just doing that kind of off the cuff in butter in a pan. It's really hard to know how high you're going to get or how, you know, what the effects are going to be with and you can do trial and error. But this way you can it's a little more predictable. That's great that there's kind of this structure to kind of be a little bit more DIY, like do yourself DIY with marijuana and it's now becoming more and more legal-ish. You know, to control your own medicine. Right. Exactly. Yeah. You also have written about a few of the dangers that people are at least worried about with marijuana, like driving under the influence and how that's kind of a, I don't know, like people don't really know how to get around that. Right. Yeah, that's that was something that a lot of people brought up when I interviewed in Vermont this week, who, you know, the chief of police in Brattleboro said it's really concerning to me that the process of testing someone on the side of the road for THC is not perfected. And, you know, basically there there is no way to. Well, basically what the science shows is that THC in the blood, the level of THC in the blood is not correlated to high nests or impairment levels. So even though they can, you know, do a blood test when they get back to the station and test for THC levels, that doesn't necessarily correlate to your level of impairness. Partly because the more the more you smoke it, like the higher that your THC level could be or that your baseline. Yeah, in part, and also that you could be feeling THC is fat-soluble. So it is absorbed from the bloodstream faster than alcohol. So it's also the opposite is true, which is that you could be feeling very high and very be very, you know, being paired, but your THC levels won't be that high, so it's hard to come up with a baseline. And, you know, that's concerning, concerning for law enforcement officers who, you know, at this point, they have this standardized tests that they do for any kind of impairment on the side of the road. But then they they're also kind of training more people to be what they call drug recognition officers who can use more medical tests to determine, like, OK, this person is on, you know, this drug because of pupil dilation or like blood pressure blood pressure levels, etc. So those are basically the only tools that they have at this point. And even though some states have decided on a THC level as a as a limit, like they've decided on a point alcohol level for THC, but a lot of people don't agree with that standard because of the reasons we already discussed. It's not really an accurate measure of impairment. So that's something that I'm sure a lot of people are working on. I would think that there are some scientists working on that. Well, you talked to one guy who's like who made an app about it. Yeah, so that he I talked to someone who designed an app called Druid that tests for impairment by it works best if you establish a baseline on the app yourself. It's, you know, tests like reaction time and accuracy and balance. And you just kind of play this five minute game on your phone. And ideally you do that when you're sober. And then if you wanted to test yourself after a drink or two or after smoking, you could play the game and it would compare that level to your baseline level. So it's not establishing a universal baseline necessarily, but comparing you to yourself. And it's not likely to be something that's used by police, but it could be useful for testing yourself and also potentially for employers. You know, he's gotten phone calls from people who work for steel unions who want to use it for people who are operating heavy equipment, not even necessarily because they're worried about alcohol or drug impairment, but because they're worried about tiredness, you know, people who work in traffic or transportation. He talked about the recent Navy crashes and how those, right, those accidents happened because of impairment due to tiredness and exhaustion. So this is an app that you could set, you know, employers could say, like every time you get behind the wheel of X vehicle or X machinery, you have to take the test and prove that you're meeting your baseline. Gina and I were talking about that story on the radio the other day and with with Trump, it's 943. And he he thought that people would use this for what he's saying. He's like, I could get higher than you. Yeah, right. Way above my baseline. Yeah, I mean, it is a fun game to like to just do every day. Like I do it when I'm waiting in line or something. Oh, wow. I've got it on my phone now. It's it's a dollar to get on Apple and Android phones. And I haven't done it impaired. Yeah, you know, and I what are the games like? It's they're hard. That's one thing you shouldn't judge yourself based on the first time because you kind of get used to it and then you do it again. But you have to, you know, they'll be it'll say, like, if you see in a square, click the square. If you see a circle, click the oval at the top of the screen. So then square, square, square, and then oval. And then the next round is the opposite. So if you see a square, click the oval. If you see a circle, click the circle. Interesting. And then there's a balance one where you hold it in your hand. And there's one more that is escaping me. So your phone knows how well balanced you are. Yeah, that's kind of scary. How far you move. I don't know. Oh, yeah, sure. It must be kind of like how remote controls work. Like, you know, if you're shaking it in your hand. But yeah, I think it's, you know, someone said to me, it seems like the if you have to ask yourself if you're impaired and do the game, you probably shouldn't drive. So I think that's true. But I think the game has a lot of, you know, potential applications across the board for for employers and even for people who want to defense against being accused of being impaired, potentially, you know, they could show like, I did this app at this time. And I don't, you know, none of it, like the judge, I know, I'm kind of like it's like a game. Well, I guess I mean, more for like, you know, if you're an employer and saying, like, are you OK? Or yeah. So I think he was excited because it seems like there's a lot of potential applications for it. So do you have a baseline? Do you know, like, what's your, do you have like a score? What's your, there was a, I don't remember. OK. But he did. They do have a suggested impairment score that if you get above this level, you're probably impaired, even no matter what your regular baseline is. But I'm the exact numbers are escaping me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it sounds interesting. It does. Yeah, you should download it. I just thought that my baseline would not look like I was impaired. Right, yeah. He said, like, you're just a moron. It's very tricky. Yeah, don't let it, the first time is hard, OK? Throw that first score out like that's not me. You can do a practice round, I think. So do the practice round. Yeah, but you wanted to, I mean, you kind of want it to be hard. I like that. I like that if you see a circle, click the oval. Like, it's like, mm. People were non-readers like me, because the circle, oops. Yeah. Oh, OK, throw that one out. Yeah, and you're, and it goes faster than really you can. Oh, that's the other one is that you're tracing the square. You just have to follow it around. While at the same time, counting the number of circles that pop up in the background, so you have to try and keep your on the square as much as possible. And then it's like, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. And at the end, they ask you how many circles there were. Interesting. Wow, that sounds so hard. I know it does, doesn't it? I might have to do that just to see my own prowess. Yeah. I guess one other thing I'm curious about is, I mean, this is such a fast-moving area, cannabis. Do you have any cannabis predictions of what's going to happen in 2018? Like, I don't know, or in the near future. Yeah, I mean, after seeing Vermont and doing a bit of reading in about other states, I think we'll see quite a few resolutions on the 2018 ballot and other ballot resolutions. I believe Michigan has one going through with enough signatures, they're just waiting for approval. And then, I want to say, the new Jersey, the governor maybe, just he went into the process saying on a platform for marijuana legalization. So there's probably at least four that have solid leads on legalization already. So I'm definitely expecting a few more states to legalize come election season. And then hopefully come this summer in Massachusetts, we'll see licenses start to get handed out. And I think that even with the snags on the federal level, there's enough support from our Republican governor, our attorney general, Marahili, both came out against Jeff Sessions a couple weeks ago. So I think that almost everyone on the state level even Lelling are realizing that this is what the voters want, and we can't put it off anymore. And hopefully the banks feel like there's enough of a safety net that they can start to support future business ventures. Interesting. Yeah. Well, great to have you in, man. Thank you. Thanks for stopping by. Bye. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to visit us at valleyadvocate.com.