 So this is the studio where I work. This is my studio office. This is not where I pour all my resin. This is where a lot of the planning and drawing and painting happens. So I'm so fortunate to have this space. My wife is an artist, too, so we converted this whole top floor to studio space for us to work. And this is where I work. This is where I spend a lot of my time. Get it all done right here. I've been doing this for about a year now. Is that all? It was about a year ago that I started using resin. And less than a year using it in this way. And like I said, I'm a process junkie. I love exploring this. And when I found this, it seemed like it was bottomless. There's so much you could do. In fact, I've gone off in directions with the stuff that I haven't shown because I've realized that somebody was a distraction. Like, oh, I'm going to try doing that. What if I put all this stuff? You know what? I just need to focus on what I'm doing. But yeah, so it was digital and then traditional. And then coming to this, which really feels like my own voice. I want to ask you about New York. So you live in New York? I do. What is it about New York? Why do you work in New York? Why do you live in New York? I was living in San Francisco, and I was doing digital work and video games and stuff like that. Not to poo-poo any one city, but I feel like in San Francisco, I was spinning my wheels a little bit. You can't do that in New York. You come to New York, and you have to get serious. Everybody I know who's come to New York, whatever they were doing, they took it up 10 levels, whether that was the writing or nonprofit or whatever. It's not fair to wear, right? Yeah, you can't survive here if you're not hustling. And so what? Do you thrive on that? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I love the hustle. I do. I mean, it's a double-edged sword. If people say you wouldn't you be more relaxed if you did something else, then yeah, sure. But I wouldn't be as happy. I love this process of exploration. I love the urgency of it. I've got to figure out how to make this work, because bills are coming, and kids, and all this other stuff. That's interesting. So these are two of the sketchbooks that I use. I said I started going to this coffee shop and just sitting and drawing every day. And this is what sketchbooks look like. So this is when I was starting to plan out some of these pieces. This was sort of before resin. I was just sort of thumb nailing out some ideas for pieces. This is kind of what ended up as the piece downstairs. You know, just all kinds of different sketches and ideas while I was sleeping. That looks beautiful. These are all thumbnails that eventually may end up as pieces and pieces of resin. So this is what ended up as the one downstairs. That was the initial. That's where it all started. That was the initial thumbnail, yeah. So interesting. So you have these little thumbnails. Yeah. You do half a billion of them. And then you come up with some neat stuff. And then you take it into Photoshop, where you make you sort of, I guess, flesh out the idea a little bit more. Yeah. And Photoshop works in layers. And then you come back to the canvas. And again, you work in layers. And it's this really interesting process, too, because I'll work, and I'll work, and I'll work, and I'll go, OK, I think we're in a good place. And then I'll pour the resin on and go, oh, no, OK, there's a lot of stuff here that needs to get fixed. And that's when I started realizing that I needed more and more layers. And then it just became this process of finding ways to have these layers interact with each other and different kinds of brushstrokes and different kinds of effects, different kinds of materials using pencil, and different kinds of paint, oil, and acrylic, and what else do I have on here? Gold leaf, lots of gold leaf. So awesome. So what you're telling me, basically what I just heard you say is that this whole thing, which everyone looks at it and goes, oh, that is so awesome. Like, how did you come up with that? You're just telling me that it was like a series of accidents and a series of explorations. Isn't that what art is? I think you exactly. Just a series of really fortunate accidents, I think. There you go, right? I think it's how you evolve as an artist is that you learn how to make the most out of your accidents. If you don't, then you're just doing the same thing kind of over and over again. And if you're not willing to make accidents, then you're not willing to grow. So if you want to be an artist, it's all about originality all the time. And so it's always sort of that road less traveled, problem solving, relying on whatever you see in that moment, push and pull, and responding to whatever it is that you've just done, and what does it need now, and what's the next step, what's the next step, what's the next step? No, exactly. I never have a 100% clear idea of how these are going to turn out. And sometimes they're done before. I know the piece over here, I looked at for probably two months before. I said, actually, I think it just is done. I think that's actually how it is. And then some of these pieces, I have a 20-pound paper weight in the other room, which is sort of a weighting resolution later. You know, I got to the place of the piece. I said, I just don't know where to take it. Because it's not a roadmap. It's not a set path. It's not like, OK, Google Maps tell me how to get to the end of the painting. It doesn't work that way. You know, there's a piece over there that I like. There's parts of it that I like. There was something that I really liked about it. I couldn't figure out how to get there at the time. And so I stopped, put it aside, worked on something else. And now I'm going to go back probably in the next month and build on top of that. And what's interesting about the resin, as we said before, is that you'll be able to see that process underneath. And so I love that story. I love that part of the process of the art. And you don't get to see that in a lot of other kinds of art. Yeah, because it covers it up. It gets covered up. Sometimes, you know, there's like, Caravaggio was sort of famous for leaving some of his paintings kind of just unfinished. I mean, they're beautifully unfinished. His under paintings were, you know, masterpieces. But you look at his paintings and sometimes in the corners, you're like, that's just umber. Like, he just laid that in and didn't touch it. You know, but with this process, I love that you can actually see each step along the way on some level. Yeah, I was so meticulous for so long. And when you start out as an artist, especially as a figurative artist, you're so caught up in like getting it right. And then when I finally got to this, sometimes there's just not any, you don't have any control over it. And I kind of loved the freedom of that, you know, of pouring this stuff out and looking at it and going, well, that happened. So what are we gonna do now? Like, you know, I need to make this into a thing or I want to make it into a thing. And finding ways to make those things that you didn't expect, those beautiful oopsies, and making them something that's really yours and beautiful, it's just been, it's been really exhilarating for me. So I love hearing that and I'm so, I'm so happy for you. Yeah, me too. You ask about, you know, how do I feel about selling work? I mean, I think it's a necessity, not just to pay your bills, but also to build your reputation as an artist and also like to evolve. Like if I have the work sitting around from, I keep a couple pieces that you can see in the living room is a few, I have one from art school that's up on the wall that I really like, but I don't keep all of it. And part of it is I just, I feel like I want to clear out space for something new. So it's as much about the financial aspect of it as it is about making, as evolving as a person, as an artist. Interesting, so it's, you don't have any like nostalgia tied to it or feeling you want to keep it around as a testament to your curriculum to Tay or anything like that. I have an interesting relationship with nostalgia. I'm very happy with a very fond memory. Yeah. I find that sometimes having the object around can kind of, it can kind of, not tarnish the memory exactly, but it can kind of get stale in a way, but that memory is so great because you can just get better and better and it can be a total lie and it doesn't matter. Yeah, so you kind of, you cut ties with it and then in a sense it freed you to explore other things. Well, yeah, I mean, people talk about, like when people are obsessing over past relationships, until you actually let go of that thing that's sitting inside you taking up space, you don't have space for something new. Nobody wants to go on a date and talk about somebody's exes, right? Yeah. People ask me about, you know, how do you find your style? Like I'm looking for a style. I want to find something cool that people like. I'm like, well, you don't actually get to do that. Someone else has to come and say, this is all fine. I mean, I can't tell you how many artists I work with, a lot of artists for the gallery and people come to me and say, look at all this stuff and I say, this is all fine, but these three pieces are, you know, are really different and really amazing. If you can show me, you know, a portfolio of this work, that's you. And I have a number of artists who have gone on to go and do that work and they're very successful, not to pat my own self on the back, but just to say it's hard to do for yourself. It's so hard to do for yourself. Yeah, and sometimes, because as we were saying, right, like you're making art and you're kind of just, you're exploring everything and you're kind of going down all these different paths and, you know, you're just, you're coming up with ideas and you're just kind of going with it and rolling with it and then you wind up with some stuff and it's kind of like, okay, well, now, which is the good stuff and which is the stuff I want to do more of or which is the stuff I want to keep and so on and so forth. I think as long as you just keep doing stuff, then you're on the right track. Yeah, well, that's true. And I think you need community, you know, and I don't think that work evolves, I could be wrong, but I don't think it really evolves in a vacuum. I think that if you sit down, you can sit down and make the same mistakes for the rest of your life and not learn anything. You know, there's this idea of deliver, I forget who coined the term, but deliberate practice where you do something and then you try to objectively sit back and say, okay, so like, what's working and what's not working and you can do that to a point on your own, but it's important to have other people, other voices to come and say, well, you know, I was looking at this other thing last week that you would never have heard of and that might take you in another direction that starts to all kind of, all these different directions and ideas come together in the pot of, the melting pot of you and come out as your art, but I don't think you get to actually do that on your own. I've been very, very fortunate and grateful to have my wife who's an artist, my mentor and a bunch of friends and a bunch of people who are still my friends for whatever reason. And we show each other work and we push each other to do better and to do more. And like I said, I teach and one of the things that we work on is actually how to look at and talk about your work. So I'll ask other students to talk about other students' work. You know, what do you think is working here? Tell me one thing you think is working really well and one thing you would improve, but don't just say, I don't like this. Tell us what you would do. How do you solve this problem? Solve a problem, solve it. Yes, it is. And I think that is, you know, I remember really kind of thought about this, but yeah, I think it's true that when you're talking about the art, when you're talking about what you've done, you're having to identify things in a new way because you have to explain it with words instead of just making something with paint and colors and whatever. So now you have to bring language to it. And when you bring language to it, you are describing it in ways that may help you identify what's working and what's not and where do you go next. The hard thing about being an artist, especially if you're a figurative artist, is that anyone can look at a figurative painting and tell you if it's crappy. Yeah. Right? We know if it doesn't look good. We know if it doesn't look good. What they can't tell you is why necessarily. And as an artist, it's our job to sort of explore these ideas. But the tough part is that we don't necessarily know why either. So we're all making it all up as we go along. And so, we have to go through and try these different things. Is it working? Is it not working? And we can come up with reasons, but in the end, does it work or does it not work? Yes. And that's it. And there's lots of rules. Do you like it? Do you not like it? Yeah. And if you like it, can you do it a hundred more times because you've got to body work, right? Right, right. And it's looking different. And slightly differently, and evolve, and be amazing. Yeah, no, it's no pressure. Exactly. Art isn't just about, here's how to make the picture better, here's how to make the picture better, but it's about like, what do you do when you're like dog died and your boyfriend broke up with you and like you're worried about paying rent and you've got to move and like all this other stuff that happens in your life that goes into this work. And that's where I think having someone like a real mentor is so valuable. Rebecca's the person that I'll text and say like, I feel like I should stop making art. Like I'm not good at this anymore. And she's like, okay, relax. We'll have a talk and we'll move fast at it. And that's what's so valuable about that. Yeah, I think artists like helping other artists, right? I think a many do. I've met a few who don't. Yeah, yeah, well. People, yeah. I think it's confidence to give artists, other artists tips, right? To say like, well, here's what works and here's what I've done and here's how I do things. You know, just because those people, those artists that are saying like, well, I don't want to share. I don't want to share because I don't want to be copied. Well, you have to have the confidence to know that you are, you do what you do and because you're you, no one else can do what you do. Exactly. So go ahead and show people. Honestly, like it takes courage, right? To share these things. But I think it's smart for two reasons. I think that maybe two reasons. I can think of one and I may come up with another before the end of my sentence. But I think it's smart to share these things because it builds community and it builds friendships and these are the things that can make or break a career. But the other thing, you know, the other thing is it builds your own name too. Like if you're out there sharing stuff, people will say, you know what, I heard Mark was talking about this the other day. He's got a YouTube about it or something and people come to you and if you start to build a reputation as a resource, that's just another feather in the cap for people sort of hearing about you and your work. There's lots of really great artists who do really great work who you won't hear about because they're grumpy and don't share any of it. And frankly, it's just like, I mean, a lot of artists deal with, I mean, we're like putting our hearts on the line, right? We're putting our stuff out there and it's a lot less nerve wracking to do with somebody else. Every project I've ever done that's gone well, I've brought other people in or someone's brought me in and it's been a group effort. And it's funny, I mean, I do this work on my own but there's nothing about this that doesn't feel like a group effort to me. Like there's so much influence and so many people who have been a part of my journey that this is absolutely a culmination of all of those people's work and I'm just grateful for all of it.