 Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America. CodePink's weekly YouTube program of hot news out of Latin America and the Caribbean. We are every Wednesday, 12 p.m. Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. Today we have a terrific conversation from La Paz Bolivia with our special guest, Leonardo Flores, who is one of CodePink's Latin America campaign coordinators and led an election observation delegation to Bolivia, starting last Thursday, and he is still there, post-election day. So welcome, Leo. It's really fun to like be talking to you from La Paz. Good to see you. So Sunday was, this is kind of fun. I'm in Mexico City and you're in La Paz. This is kind of neat for our Latin American team. Sunday was the presidential, Sunday the 18th was the presidential elections for Bolivia after the world watched a coup in October 2019 and the OAS manipulation of the presidential elections at that time, which basically put an interim right wing government into power. So tell us, well, first of all, just give us a temperature reading of what it's like on the ground today, post-election. And then let's talk about election day and some of the really intense variables that led up into election day. Right, so it's funny because the TSC, the Bolivia's National Electoral Authorities, when they sent the agenda to the observers, they had it on their calendar as that the observers would leave the Tuesday after the elections. We thought that was a little strange, given that everything that had happened last year. So we decided to try to stay a little longer. In La Paz, things are really calm. It's almost as if it's total normalcy, right? We have gotten reports from Eastern Bolivia of people protesting the results, saying without any basis whatsoever that there was fraud, but these are pretty much small groups. Just yesterday in La Paz, there was a demonstration of about 100 people that marched down one of the main avenues here, demanding that the elections results be canceled. But yeah, again, that was a very small group of protesters and they have no basis. And they were like opposition right wing protesters. Yeah, opposition right wing protesters. But basically they're saying that the mass shouldn't have been allowed to run at all because of last year's so-called fraud, which of course there was no fraud. So really you have this very small sector of Bolivia's population that is very upset at these results. But I think the vast majority of the people, and I don't just mean the 55% that voted for the mass, but a significant percentage of those who voted for some of the other opposition candidates, they understand the results and they're kind of looking forward to going back to normalcy after a year of a coup regime that was brutal and authoritarian and committed massive human rights violations. So this, I mean, for all of us sitting here, I can tell you here in Mexico, people were just elated like tears in our eyes, which I can't, I mean, it was beyond that and throughout Bolivia, I'm sure. So for our viewers, most of them probably understand what happened last fall, but October of 2019 were the presidential elections according to the constitution in that timely interval. And the vote was very, very close with Evo Morales eking out a slight majority and winning. And what happened after that election, just as background for our viewers to really understand the importance of this past Sunday? Right, so last year they had this system in place called the quick count vote known as the TREP. So it's basically a mechanism for publishing preliminary results that's from the TSC, the nation's electoral authorities. And what happened was that the TREP at one point stopped and then restarted. And then there was a claim that there was fraud because when the TREP stopped, Evo Morales was up by about seven or eight points and then we went and restarted again, he ended up winning by about 11 points. And so who claimed there was fraud with what entity was claiming there was fraud? Okay, sorry. I'll get to that in a second, but I just want to give a quick anecdote because last week we met with electoral experts who told me something super interesting. They said that the company that was hired to carry out this TREP had to have 80% of the results in by 8 p.m. Well, by 6 p.m. local time, they only had 60% of the results in. So what they did was they fed the results from the state of Santa Cruz, which is an Eastern Bolivia, which is an opposition stronghold. They fed those results into the system, thereby skewing the very system they were meant to protect. Wow. Right, so you have all these votes coming in from Santa Cruz, which skewed the results and made it look like the collections were much closer than they were. So then, of course, when you have this last 20% come in, it was skewed heavily towards Morales' base, which is why the lead expanded and why Morales went from being up seven to being up 11 or so. And so the day after the elections, or it might have been the night of, I would have to check, the OAS issued a statement saying there was something really fishy going on about this TREP system, about the quick count, because prior to the TREP stopping, it looked like there was gonna be a for sure a second round. In Bolivia, if a candidate takes 40% or more, they have to win by 10, or if they take 50%, they went outright. And if they take 40% or more and win by 10, there's no second round. Otherwise, they go to a second round with just the top two candidates. So the OAS issued a statement at a very critical time in Bolivia, basically alleging fraud. So immediately, the right wing in Bolivia goes into overdrive saying, no, we can't trust those results, there's fraud. And then for the next several weeks, the country was very tense. And that's when Code Pink really got involved in this story in Bolivia, because we were watching it closely. We didn't know what was gonna happen. And then we actually started playing to send some folks down to Bolivia and actually Medea Benjamin from Code Pink, Tide Berry, and White Reed came down as well. But what happened was, the weekend of November 10th, there was hints that there was gonna be a coup. That later that week, the OAS was supposed to issue its preliminary report. It was due, I think, about the 14th or 15th of November. But instead they issued it five days earlier and they insisted that there was fraud. So basically the OAS, what they did was they set this narrative of fraud in the Bolivian media. Bolivian media is really, especially at a national level, is dominated by like corporate right wing interests. And so they were the ones yelling fraud. They were backed by the OAS and the OAS issues this report saying that there was fraud. This report was later completely debunked by many, many academics, including from CEPR, the Center for Economic Policy Research, MIT, and many others. So basically the OAS, the day after the elections, they questioned them. And then the day before the coup happens, they issued this report saying there was fraud. So the OAS really has blood on its hands from my point of view. Because right after the coup that ousted Evo Morales, there were massacres in Cincata, which actually Medea was there to witness the aftermath of. And there was massacres in Sacaba and there were basically these horrible human rights abuses occurring throughout the country, where the military was firing live ammunition on protesters who wanted the results respected. So, wow, there's a lot of things that you've mentioned that first, I guess the first thing that comes to mind is the suspension of the count, the delay, suspension stopping. It's not so much unlike, or may actually be exactly like, what happened in Honduras in their presidential election was that fall of 2017, I think where there was like a 36 hour delay. And of course, the United States recognized the outcome of those elections with no criticism whatsoever. Yeah, and it's my understanding that this delay was actually pre-programmed. Everyone knew they were gonna stop at 80% and then take a couple more days to do the other 20%. And so, I mean, there was a lot of confusion and a lack of transparency around the whole trap, this quick count system last year. And actually this year, they were supposed to have a very similar system in place. The difference was that this system was gonna be even less transparent than last year. But many of the electoral observers denounced this system, including Code Pink, we are among the ones that were questioned it in front of the TSC. We said, what's going on with the system? Why are you using a new system that's barely been tested? Who's auditing the system? We actually asked them what companies were auditing the system. We knew who they were because we had done some research beforehand, but we wanted the TSC to confirm it. And they gave us the run around, they refused to answer the question. And so it was very kind of, something sketchy was definitely going on. And then the night before the elections, they suspended this quick count system in response to all this massive pressure that they received. And yet they did it in a very poor way. So they didn't consult with the parties actually running and they didn't like give their exact reasons why they were canceling it. They just canceled it. And so, I mean, a very typical authoritarian move, not informing and not consulting with the people and the parties, but we're kind of in some ways, we're glad they did because this system was very, very shady. Who knows what could have happened had this quick count system been in place. So this year on election day, well, first of all, I think you arrived on Thursday of last week, I believe. And what did you, what was the temperature reading on the ground Thursday? What was the public temperature reading and what sort of things were you observing? You were still basically functioning under a coup government at that point. And so I think early Thursday morning, I did a quick video of one of the cable cars here in Bolivia. And things were pretty normal. But then as the day went on, because when we talked to more and more people, you could sense the kind of an underlying tension. We were told that people were stocking up on food and on fuel. People were kind of nervous. They thought that this week they wouldn't be able to leave their houses. They thought there would be clashes on the street. And to be honest, going in, that's what we thought too. We thought that going, that we'd go to the voting centers and like to witness aggressions on the part of particularly the far right, trying to impede them last vote. And so that was the kind of the mood last week is one of tension, underlying tension is what I would say. And so the expectation was, no matter what the electoral outcome, there would be protests. Were you expecting that the right-wing would push back with physical violence, physical aggression, if they did not win? Yeah, well, yes and no. I mean, we had thought about several scenarios as we were coming down. And I thought, if the mass wins by 10 or 11 points and it's like 47 to 36 or something like that or 90, like just over 40 and by 10 points enough to not have a second round, then there's gonna be serious tensions and I would, I foresaw clashes. But I also thought in my wildest of dreams, I was like, well, if the mass amount takes 50%, then that's gonna be a very clear sign to everyone in the country and I think things will be calm. And luckily that's what's happened. You have some kind of very far right demonstrators protesting these results, again on a completely unfounded basis. But for the most part it's been calm and that's been really, really kind of a relief, a huge relief, not just for everyone in the country. I don't know that anyone expected such a massive mass victory, except for maybe the mass folks who themselves were predicting that they would take 53 or so percent of the vote. But even then, even they were a bit skeptical about their own methodology because they thought, well, are we really gonna do that much better this time around? And they did do that much better. And I think part of the reason is that you had a lot of people who have traditionally voted for the mass who have become disenchanted over the years and thought, well, maybe it's time to alternate and give someone also a shot. But one, after living through this coup regime for 11 months, they saw what neoliberalism brings. They saw what fascism brings and they said, you know what, let's go with the mass that has brought us 15 years of uninterrupted economic growth that has brought massive development to this country that has really brought dignity to a lot of the people in this country and a sense of equality, particularly for indigenous people. And I think they saw that the hate being pushed by, particularly by the Curemos, the far-right party led by Fernando Camacho. And so this was an election rejecting hate, rejecting fascism and rejecting neoliberalism. So, do you think the mass won by, was 52.4% almost 53% of the vote? Am I correct in that? No, so right now it's more than that at this point. Yeah, with about 93% of the official vote counted, the masses up with 55 or 54.56% of the vote, they're up 25 points over the next week candidate. It's huge, amazingly, like a huge victory. Do you think, you know, you mentioned that people realized, you know, they basically made a mistake, you know, according to their own interests, last October of 2019. Do you think it was helpful for the mass to have new leadership this time around? And a new face, a new voice to the party? Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, let me say able one last time, you know, I think we kind of forget that sometimes when we talk about the new leadership. Yeah, everyone, in the sense of new leadership, I think the mass themselves have been talking about that, not just, you know, someone else other than able, but also just kind of, you know, raising this new generation of politicians. And so they have a lot of young people now in the Senate and the Chamber of Deputies. And actually 20 of the 36 senators are women, which is amazing. I think the mass has 21 of the 36 senators. So yeah, I think there's been a very concerted effort by the mass to kind of raise this new generation of political leaders. And additionally, I think they've now understand, I mean, the mass should have always known, they kind of always have known the importance of social movements because really this is a party that grows from social movements. Exactly. But I think that was kind of lost maybe over the years as the process kind of became maybe a little too centralized. But now they're talking about leading with the social movements. And I think that's gonna be very key for them to kind of push their agenda and maybe even kind of deepen their process of change. I was talking with someone last week and I mentioned the coup in Venezuela in 2002 and how after that coup, the Bolivarian Revolution really took a left-wing turn and became much more left-wing and eventually becoming socialist. And I asked if that was possible for the mass. And they said, well, I don't know what the leaders are gonna do, but certainly that's what the social movements are gonna do. We're gonna be pushing more and more for our rights and for dignity and equality for all and for socialism as well. I think this is a, let's talk a little bit more about the social movements. One of the things you mentioned about younger people now being more involved in the party and actually holding seats in the Senate. And it's so important and it's such a fantastic example for all of us to see this development of young people and creating a line of succession for the party ideology, for the economic goals of the country, the political goals, all of that. And it's a very exciting prospect and it creates a lot of positive energy and a really great example for all the rest of us to follow with our own political parties and our own respective countries. So in that sense, let's talk about the importance of social movements existing first and growing into a party and creating that movement on the ground and power on the ground from the people up versus what we see happens in the United States where there's a lot of movements and those movements get co-opted by the two major political parties. Yeah, so the first thing I'd say is that when we talk about the MAS, that's really shorthand. It's MAS-IPSP. So MAS is movement towards socialism. IPSP is political instrument for the sovereignty of the peoples. And so really the MAS starts as the IPSP. It was basically a conjunction of social movements including Evo Morales and his co-coleros union. Lots of different unions, they came together. Lots of social movements, they came together in about, I think it was 2005 or just prior to 2005 actually. And they tried to form their own, they didn't want to quite exactly form a party because they were very skeptical of the whole party system but they did want to run an elections. And so they came together as the IPSP and tried to register as a party in front of the TSE but they were not allowed. And so what happened was that this person who's basically one guy who owned the MAS party said, you know what, you can have it. And so they were able to run under the MAS banner as the MAS-IPSP. And so that's really kind of the origin story of the MAS-IPSP. And this reliance on social movements is really what, A, it's what allowed Bolivia to kind of overcome these 11 months of regime change. And it's really what's allowed them to, you know, be in power and really it's during the most stable period by far in Bolivia's history. We're talking about a country that has had about 200 coups and counter-coups in its 200 plus years of existence, right? And so the MAS brought some massive stability, economic growth, lower inequality, lower poverty. And so, you know, and that has a lot to do with the fact that how well connected they were to the social movements, how well they understood Bolivia's problems ranging from the poorest of the poor to people in the cities who are, you know, middle class and higher. It's just so fascinating to watch that because for an elected government to know they have this huge base in civil society that supports them and is giving oxygen to the political movement from the ground up allows the government to also work from the top down for the benefit of the people. And it's that cross fertilization that keeps happening that it's such a fantastic example of what's possible and what's needed in so many places. So this major, this fantastic, what's the word I wanna use to describe the win on Sunday is so inspiring and so concrete. There's no doubt who the government and what the government is in Bolivia. What message is that sending to the rest of the hemisphere to the rest of the world and what are the implications of the election results? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a huge message. I think it potentially pretends a new pink tide for Latin America, if not a pink wave because this time around, I think it's gonna be deeper, right? So next year we have elections in Ecuador, we have elections in Chile. And I think the lesson here is that people's power can overcome fascism, can overcome neoliberalism. And I think that's what we're gonna see. We're gonna see unity among the left and Chile and Ecuador. And then further down the line, there are gonna be elections in Brazil and in Colombia. And if the left can take those as well, which is very possible, particularly in Brazil, but even Colombia, a country that has easily the most right-wing country in Latin America by far over at least 100 years, I think there's a strong possibility that the left can win there because we're seeing massive protests in Colombia, we're seeing social movements organizing more and more and people's power out on the streets. And the lesson from Bolivia is that you can do it. If you unite, if you work together, if you have, you build this cross section of different social movements, that it really can be overcome. And what we're gonna see also in geopolitically is the rebuilding of certain institutions that have been kind of destroyed over the past years, particularly in part due to US imperialism and the policies of Barack Obama and Donald Trump. I'm thinking specifically of UNASUR, the Union of South American Nations. President-elect Luis Arce has already said that Bolivia is gonna take a leading role in rebuilding UNASUR. And I expect also Bolivia to rejoin ALBA, the Bolivarian Alliance for the Peoples of the Americas, which is a very, I would call it, rather than a free trade agreement, it's a fair trade agreement. And it's very kind of important for the countries that are in it because it allows kind of a complimentary trade where it's win-win rather than just like an open market wherever it's everyone for themselves. In addition to that, I think we're also seeing a massive rejection of the OAS right now. So the Grupo de Puebla, the Puebla group, which is made up of various Latin American leaders, blanking on the right with the word I wanna say, and not quite high ranking, but prestigious leaders, former presidents, former foreign ministers, former parliamentarians, they've called for Luis Almagro to resign, echoing the calls made by Code Pink. If you want Luis Almagro to resign, go to www.codepink.org slash OAS and sign our letter. In addition to the Grupo de Puebla, you've had lots of people criticizing Almagro recently, including the Mexican government, including Evo Morales, including Celag, which is a think tank in Latin America. So right now is really the time to jump on Luis Almagro because he's got blood on his hands. And he's been proven false. One thing I haven't mentioned with regards to last year's elections is that the OAS, after having their main theory debunked about this quick count system, they held on to the fact that there were certain irregularities in what are they called actas, tally sheets. And well, it turns out that Ceper and Celag and others have compared these tally sheets from last year to this year. And it turns out the masses either equaled or won more of the vote. And these particular voting stations, then they did previously. So that completely undercuts any OAS argument about fraud in 2019. And the OAS really needs to be held accountable. I hope to see a push in Congress holding them to account. And really, I think we're gonna see a push throughout Latin America, kind of rejecting Luis Almagro's leadership. Wouldn't that be something? So I'm the petition, the Code Pink petition is fantastic. And the Puebla group statement or basically demand that he step down is a really powerful thing to be witnessing now as well. I wanted to ask you about, well, I guess one thing I wanna say, just while I'm thinking about it, you mentioned Ceper, which for our viewers is the Center for Economic Policy and Research and they can be found at Ceper.net. And they have some, like I think they produced some of the first reports after October 19th elections and you can find their findings at Ceper.net. And then what I wanted to ask you about were also on the heels of the Ceper reporting, we had the MIT analysis of last year's elections as well. So there's plenty of data to really push for a leadership change in the OAS. Absolutely. Yeah, there's been many, I think there's been seven studies total debunking this OAS report from 2019. Yeah, it's really a matter of not only debunking Almagra but the entire institution, which yeah. So what else should we talk about while I have your time? I know you're super busy. Is there anything that we've missed? You know, I think we should maybe talk a little bit about some of the aggression against one of the journalists traveling with you. So not just one really. From the day we arrived, several members of our delegation had their pictures taken and posted online and they received threats online. And then the Interior Minister Arturo Murillo who's really the one responsible for the massacres at Secata Zacaba, he tweeted very ominously that we know where you are, we know what you're eating and he threatened to put people on a plane and really threatened to put people on a plane when your South America has very kind of dangerous undertones because it, you know, harkens back to Plan Condor, the dictatorships of the 70s where people were put on planes and then thrown off planes and just disappeared. And then there were aggressions against the Spanish delegation. The Argentinian delegation came and a Argentinian parliamentarian was almost basically disappeared. He was briefly detained. An Argentinian diplomat was beat up. And then just yesterday there was a press conference where our own Alina Duarte was threatened by the Interior Ministry. You know, and if an international observers are treated like this by a coup regime, you can just imagine how normal everyday Bolivians are treated by their own coup government. But luckily I think that does she with Alina is not as serious as we thought, but we're still taking precautions with her, of course. Oh, that's good news. And it's amazing how brazen in front of the world and on camera that these people are. I mean, it's just such a pure example of the arrogant and the presumption of power that they have. And it's just so wonderful to see the people of Bolivia prevail. And it's such a wonderful message of hope for the rest of us, for the hemisphere and for the rest of the world. So Leo, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. I know you've been so busy and the days have been very long, but I'm so happy you were able to make some time for us today. Of course. I'm just sorry we couldn't do it live yesterday because of some difficulties. Well, you know, this happens and thank you so much. And we look forward to talking with you when you get back home. Thanks, take care. Okay, thank you. Bye-bye.