 So we have Abner from Juniper Networks and Stu Miniman from the Wikibon Project. Senior Analyst, welcome to theCUBE. Thank you. So Abner, we were just talking about the Apple news and obviously Apple's epitome of the user experience out there at mobile and mobile is, you know, everyone expects mobile. User experience has changed and the demand is unprecedented in terms of this disruption. They want everything at the edge. They want it fast. They want it secure. Your company Juniper Networks competes with Cisco systems and so, you know, you guys are the guys running the networks, okay? You have the plumbing, running the bits and the packets, work with the carriers, running the data across the network. What's changing? You guys have a philosophy that's quite different than Cisco. Cisco's the fully integrated stack, pushing some video as well so they're pushing innovation measures but you guys have a new architecture. So compare what you guys are doing with Cisco and Stu, let's riff on the whole, what is the preferred network architecture for the user experiences? Sure. And I think what we really virtualization changes networking. All right, two big questions, actually fairly closely related. So, classically networking was a black box that I bought into and a particular vendor would develop the silicon, all the software for it and I bought a box and so today you hear network people talk about, oh, I've got a Juniper over there, I've got a Cisco over there and they refer to their boxes as the way that they build networks. What's happened is that in the networking world, Juniper in particular has looked at, well, what's the architecture that the rest of the IT industry has adopted and that's an architecture that's a layer cake model where the applications are separate from the operating system which is separate from the silicon and that allows you to innovate very quickly and do some interesting things like start to solve management problems because no longer do you want to manage just one box, you want to manage all the boxes in concert with each other and you don't want to think of them as boxes anymore, you want to think of them as a network which brings us to virtualization. So, one of the things that's happened with virtualization is the, you have a set of virtual connections that applications connect to and then you have an underlying infrastructure that's physical and if your underlying infrastructure is spaghetti, you can't connect those things together, you're just sort of layering some sauce on that and it might work for a little while but it doesn't necessarily get you the ability to move things around in a very fluid fashion and so one of the things that we look at is, well one, how do you innovate on the network in a way that's identical to the classic IT innovation model which is open it up, give you an open interface for people to develop new applications, have a common interface across multiple components of the network. So Juniper runs Junos which is our operating system across switching, routing and security and that allows us to do some really cool things with partners and help drive down the cost of building the reliable network that companies have always wanted but has been very difficult to achieve with legacy architectures. Stu, you're an expert in this area, obviously you're an analyst, you're covering this new architecture models that are emerging from the vendors and the company's innovating out there. What's your angle on, and you work at EMC so you know the storage business up and down but you also know networking, what's your angle on what's happening from your research and what you're seeing out in the marketplace, talk about what that is. Okay John, so before it used to be network was just kind of the pipes that got me things and the separation, there wasn't a real strong connection between my application and what I needed to do it was just the network guy was over there, go provision me some bandwidth, maybe if you got to go play with quality of service that was usually a dirty word to the networking guys and today it's not set it up once and forget about it and it grows and expands and moves incrementally but now we have a completely different scenario where what you put today is going to move all the time it's changing all over the place and the biggest challenge here is really from a management perspective security is also a real big issue but what I've seen Juniper doing is the integration that they've done with VMware and I think they're talking about that here at the conference is have some great solutions pulling together the virtual infrastructure and management. So the question that I have for Avner maybe Stu as well is that we heard about server consolidation around with Fusion IO and all the stuff where they're consolidating but yet increasing performance so the question is, is it the same on the network side where there's some consolidation or reconfiguration and higher performance is that the same kind of direction do you see that going that way or what's going on at the lower levels there? Yeah, you don't have consolidation in the same way that we consolidated servers or for the same reason we had server we consolidated servers, we consolidated servers because there was an efficiency problem we just wasn't going to utilize the consolidation that's occurring on the network is we have a new design problem so when we moved from client server architectures the design problem was how do I get the traffic from the server out into the rest of the world now it's how do I pull it into the data center bouncing around a whole bunch of times and then spit it back out? So Avner actually if you don't mind me jumping in here so actually I think there first of all there is an efficiency issue with networking today Juniper and a lot of your competitors out there are solving that because rather than having blocking architectures, over provisioning we're now building much bigger scale out architectures that are going to be able to support cloud type applications and we're using every port and we're going to much higher speeds we've got 10 gig now, 40 gig and 100 gig just been approved and they're coming soon so the price report is such that it needs to be used and we can't just waste resources the way waste maybe is the wrong word but we have to more efficiently use everything that we have The efficiency problem is one of basically asking a very simple question how do you get traffic from one side of a data center to the other and whether that traffic is application traffic because our application architectures have changed whether it's a VM that's moving across the data center because our compute architectures have changed or whether it's moving storage across the data center because our storage architectures are changing that requires a fundamentally different architecture that where you need to be as efficient as possible in a number of different places it's not just moving the packets it's management and just how do you operate the network and automate all of those different moving parts Right and I think really networking bears the brunt of a lot of the changes that are going on in virtualization before you would have a steady growth and a really predictable pattern of traffic and now we're moving things all over spikes and there's not the downtime to reconfigure so Well I'd like to chip into the virtualization but let's hold that for a second because I think having to raise up a good point change is happening the fact that the constant thing that we're seeing is change Randy Bias on earlier an entrepreneur who's building clouds from scratch you know it's this disruptive change we haven't seen in 30 years it's going to continue to disrupt for 20 more years as his quote which is great the question is is that we have a philosophy difference I mean Juniper particularly how about Junos it's kind of an open so here in the VMware world you got open models where there's innovation extraction from ecosystems Todd Nielsen saying for every dollar it's $15 of ecosystem money which basically means people make money and go public and things happen and you got guys like Oracle right so we heard that at SAP Oracle, SAP open, VMware, closed people want to know really Juniper and Cisco seems to be the same argument like Cisco, Oracle, Juniper talk about you guys how you differentiate and how you position via Cisco so can I just to add to that point I guess so VMware laid out a new vision today for where they're going with networking so VMware they're calling it their V chassis vision so this is taking the virtual switch they have the virtual distributed switch and now they really have a virtual director so Avner and I were talking earlier because I've talked to a lot of the networking players out there and there's that let's say some friction between VMware's vision and where some of the infrastructure players are going so I'm curious to get your take on this yeah well we don't have a big legacy infrastructure in the data center to protect so the faster disruption occurs that's okay with us and the piece that all this comes down to is what are the components that an IT manager can move around so today a VM is sort of the as somebody said the atomic unit of cloud computing and if I've standardized my VMs I can move them within my own infrastructure and out into other infrastructures I think there's an open question in terms of how does that do those atomic units and what are the different slices that managers can move around to optimize their own infrastructures burst into clouds for that capability and the economics around that and we look at how do you interface with those sorts of systems like the VMware beach assi and that's where you need a web services interface that crosses all of the components of the network and we do that with a platform called Juno Space great I mean let's talk about the virtualization we got two minutes left so what if you want to address the Oracle kind of open close issue that you can do that real quick yeah I mean you know and the open close look everybody's trying to open all sorts of interfaces and so the issue isn't how many interfaces do you have open and are your interfaces more open than the other guys the issue is can developers develop on your platform in a way that at some point you don't pull the sand out from underneath them and they can't develop on sand they've got to develop on concrete on the virtualization piece what are you seeing in terms of virtualization because virtual machines can be used for configurations help balance networks Doug Gorley from Arista Networks earlier mentioned you know load balancing it's going to be a kind of a big area we heard Fusion IO with the storage sites what's going on in the networking what does virtualization enable right so I mean virtualization if you look we had a bunch of years that virtualization was a pure economics play where it was doing consolidation now we have many operational pieces of virtualization that are making changes but you know on the economic conditions hopefully we're doing a little bit better globally and therefore that it's giving us some opportunities for hopefully take advantage of some more innovations out there in the marketplace I would say you know virtualization when you start moving VMs around it loads the network which is great it creates a series of security problems and we have some nice solutions with a couple of partners we also think that you know you need to get the network out of the way to a certain degree because the network's not the important part as you know pays my paycheck but the network is secondary to the application and when you look at how do you spin applications up very very quickly the infrastructure can't be in the way of that and that's where people are trying to make sure that it's not you know one way that people are getting in the way of each other today with virtualization is what does the network guy manage on the physical network and what does the server guy manage on the virtual network and is it a interface problem or is it an orchestration problem we believe it's an orchestration problem but we have one minute left or just under one minute so real quick just predictions I mean in the networking business what's going to change what's going to be the disruptive neighbor just real quick kind of summarize that real fast it's what is the software architecture and how does that software architecture drive costs down for customers in both CapEx and OpEx Stu, what's your vision next couple years with networking? So you know it's a great time to be in the networking space because while we've had a long time that nothing has changed pretty much everything's changing now so you know a switch isn't going to look like a switch anymore the physical and virtual barriers are all coming down and you know you talk about the Apple and everything you know consumerization of IT you know that's going to hit the network side too and we're here with SiliconANGLE's continuous coverage of VMworld Live 2010 we're hearing about the networking side how all this disruption is going to be changing even how networks are built and scaled and managed and to support these consumer apps whether IT or mobile consumer so that's great, thanks guys very much we'll be right back we'll take a short break