 Hello everybody, welcome to today's webinar on evolving leadership, why we need a new form of leadership for the 21st century. You're joining us in a sunny, sultry Cambridge and I hope that you're all well, joining us from wherever you are. I think we've got 300 people joining this webinar from all around the country. So firstly, let me introduce our speakers today. So myself, I'm Zoe Arden. I'm a fellow here at CISL. I also lead on a lot of our leadership work and I'm head tutor of our high impact leadership online course. So delighted to be chairing today's session and also delighted to introduce our two esteemed speakers here. So Dr Louise Drake, who is got a very difficult challenging job today of taking us through the leadership theory and to this point, who is an academic tutor and course director here at CISL and welcome also to Manish Dutta, who is a senior associate here at CISL and also head of membership and insights at the UK Green Building Council. So welcome to both of you. Thank you. So here is an overview of our agenda for today. So we're actually going to be looking at the context of exploring leadership, the purpose of leadership, the nature of leadership that's required and the role of the individual. And Lou is going to take us through the kind of context and theory and Manish is going to provide some insights, personal insights from your career, which to sort of punctuate and give us a personal perspective on what Lou takes us through. And before I dig into today's webinar, also wanted to give you a quick sense of what next, so what you can look forward to in terms of what's coming. So our next webinar in this series will be on September 12 looking at purposeful leadership. We have the next cohort of our high impact leadership short course online course kicking off on July 31. And Lou and I will be leading alongside Victoria, Dr. Victoria Hearth, our next leadership lab on October 15 16. So we'll we'll share those again at the end, but just to give you a sense of what else is coming out from us. So firstly, Lou, thank you for doing all the hard work in terms of condensing about 100 years of leadership theory and sharing it with us over the next 30 minutes. So kicking us off, Lou, can you just get us started on what we mean by leadership theory? Well, thank you, Zoe. And it's a great pleasure to be here this afternoon. By leadership theory, I mean the way in which we make sense of leadership, our mental model of leadership. And that actually has, it's an academic field of study, but it has real practical outworkings in terms of what we look for in leaders and how we develop leaders, whether we see history as the result of great men and their natural attributes, whether we see it as the importance of context, or whether we think about the role of followers and why they follow it and the characteristics of followers. Great. Now I know that you're going to share three specific trends with us. That's right. And as you say, the literature is vast and so I've been highly selective. But the first trend, we're going to think about the purpose of leadership and emerging thinking on that. The second trend about the nature of leadership and what theory has to say about the nature of leadership. And then thirdly thinking about what does that mean for individuals and their own leadership development. Great. Super. Great. So can you kick us off? Absolutely. So we're thinking about evolving leadership leadership for the 21st century. So I'd love to start off with a quick reflection on the importance of context. So a number of leadership theories recognize the importance of context and the contingent school of leadership. And how different situations require different types of leader, the situational school of leadership, looking at how leaders adapt their style to be effective in different situations. Now in those early leadership theories, context is seen primarily in terms of team or organization. In today's context, context or idea of context needs to be bigger. We're in such a globally connected world. So let the idea of understanding context as understanding the times to use this quote here. So the times profoundly influence what it takes to be a successful leader. Yeah. So how would you characterize our times? Well, some people talk about the being VUCOs, a familiar term to many of us, volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous. I mentioned hyperconnectivity, hypermobility, although others have drawn attention to different forms of isolation and fragmentation. Community looks a lot different now to what it did a few generations ago. If we looked at the World Economic Forum global risk register, we'd start to think about things like climate instability and cyber and security. I think this quote from CISL's report last year captures it quite well. The world is experiencing a fourth industrial revolution characterised by unprecedented changes driven by new technologies. At the same time, there are these pressing social and environmental challenges from climate change to wealth inequality, which pose these fundamental risks for the stability and wellbeing of our society. Now, the challenges that are mentioned there, we might call system challenges and they're not isolated issues. They are expressions of this system, this hardwired system that reflects certain norms and values and has institutions and rules of the game. We could have a very lengthy debate about what those rules and values are, but this is the conclusion of a report from last year. Based on a growth fixation and flawed philosophy, we've created an economy to maximise financial and built capital and in doing this destroyed our life support systems. Without them, there is no social stability, no life, no economy. Wow. That's a very profound place to start, Lou. So, given that's the context, given that's the description of the times we're in, what does that mean for leadership? Well, I think an increasing number of commentators now are recognising that leadership can't be success within this system, success within a system that's fixated on growth, as if that's a fixed reality. This quote I think highlights it well. We have this incredible power to transform our environment and yet we have this odd tendency to throw our hands and proclaim our inability to change the system. I think leadership today needs to recognise this power and not simply seek to adapt and be successful within the system but actually to try and adapt the system to try and transform the system in order to achieve long term well being for all. Absolutely. And we know that this is something that both individual leaders, whether they're aspiring or existing leaders and also people in learning and development and HR functions are particularly focused on, both from the report that we referenced already today and also with regard to the report that we did recently on equipping leaders for long term business success. So one of the areas that we've seen emerge is this whole area of purpose that's become really popular now. Yes, absolutely. And as you say there's been this explosion of interest in purpose, largely in the practitioner field but I think academia is catching up and indeed it's the focus for our next webinar in the series. I think what's very, what's particularly relevant about purpose for this discussion is when we look at purpose in the context of knowing the times that brings us into the interesting realm of impact. So truly impact for leadership will no longer be contented with any sort of purpose, even if it's quite a noble purpose, it will be seeking to really confront and face up to the most pressing challenges facing humanity and actually want to really try and transform the system in order to achieve that long term well being for. Great. Okay. And we've mentioned leadership and impact in the same sentence there but clearly that leads me on to ask now how does that relate to the Cambridge impact leadership model. That's right. And that was the one that was published last year. So if the goal of our leadership is to achieve positive and social environmental outcomes. In a business context that means rethinking commercial success and business performance so that it actually aligns with those outcomes. The challenge is that the rules of the game the economy often kind of hinder that alignment and so bold leadership is needed to transform that economy to rewire the economy that's a phrase that we've used in our 2017 report and so that business onto hindrance to well being for all but actually a key means of achieving that ultimate outcome. Yeah, fantastic so so that's effectively our first trend. Yeah, and that gives us a much more inspiring business purpose actually to be part of that transformation of the economy. Yeah, brilliant. So we're bringing together insights about purpose and knowing our times and thinking about how future leadership is about ambitious transformation of the system itself for the better well being of all. Yeah. Great. So, so that's very much our trend one the purpose of leadership and driving systems transformation. So what does leadership theory have to say about the nature of the kind of leadership that is required to drive that change. Can you talk to us a little bit about that. I'm happy to I don't think we mentioned any reflections on the. Thank you Zoe thank you Lou and delighted to be here and join you and I suppose I want to just sort of rewind slightly and think about who was the first corporate leader that had that sort of purpose led impression on me. And I remember being a sort of leading construction programs for Mark Spencer about 15 years ago being invited by one of us as far as a flooring company interface to a lunch with their CEO, Ray Anderson now I didn't know a great deal about Ray Anderson. I did do some homework knew that he was into something called sustainability did really know what that was. But I was so struck by more than anything else is radical views on things. You know it's not your normal supplier client lunch this and he's since been known for expressing re expressing the purpose of interface and the purpose of business from moving from an extractive sort of model of operation to a regenerative model of operation called mission zero in interface language. But at that time, probably about 10 years ahead of most of his peers, he definitely was seeing the times he was perhaps projected where the times are going to lead us. And you know then he's become famous and he did use that lunch things like in future people like me will go to jail. There's no business case for a dead planet. He's become famous for those but it was he became for me that moment where I started thinking about this topic because he clearly had had a change in his purpose as a leader and therefore change the purpose of interface forever more and they continue to do so today and be recognized as such. And then if I just translate that probably two or three years later, two things were happening to me my personal and professional life so in my personal life I was going to become a father. And that had a profound impact on my outlook, you know it completely changed my it changed the way I measured time from, you know, just thinking about time from my eyes but actually starting to think time multi generationally because I was about to become a father of the next generation I guess. And firstly, when I had this baby in my hands my son yes, it took me back to the time when I was his age, you know, I was very fortunate to be brought up in in Kenya. All of my childhood was either in the Indian Ocean looking at the beauty of the sea or actually in gay preserves looking at the beautiful nature around me. And I've very much taken that for granted until that moment and I realized actually in the 30 years that also that passed so much had changed and then I fast forwarded 30 years further thinking well what's the world going to be like when yush is my age. And actually that completely struck great fear in me and I recall then the words that I'd heard from Ray Anderson and around that time very fortunate for me in my professional life. So my personal purpose of being awakened I guess in my professional life monster Spencer launched plan A which I'll talk about a bit more in a minute, but that may meant that it was a really easy fit for me. That didn't mean that I was getting it right and successful at it, but it meant that suddenly, you know this future thinking that I had in my mind about what's your purpose, you know my purpose of change my outlook could change. And then let's get me an opportunity to try and fulfill that through professional action, which was fantastic. I think that was a great accumulation to great examples like professional milestone and also a personal milestone which that's really, really helpful. So, Lou, given that, and given those insights from niche. Tell me a little bit about what's the leadership that's required to drive this this systems level change. There has been a noticeable shift in leadership theory over the last few decades, and particularly way from this idea of her own individuals and moving towards thinking about collective capacity for change. I'll tell you a little bit further. We might be familiar with the idea of the great man and theory of leadership picture prominence in the 19th century and saw history and change largely in the light of these significant chaps men and their natural attributes their intellect or their powers of persuasion or their courage. And now that field of that theory spawned a field of leadership studies and around traits and trying to identify the qualities that were unique to leaders and the all good leaders possessed to some extent. And trait theory is alive and kicking today. But but it's been met with a number of criticisms. It doesn't acknowledge the role of context as where the contingent and situational schools that I mentioned previously sort of bubbled up to address that. And it doesn't pay much attention to the role of followers and who they are and why they choose to follow. And so it's a more contemporary take on heroic models of leadership and would be theories that do pay attention to the world of followers and start to explore how leaders can inspire and encourage a community to rise up and tackle a shared goal, which is what we might call transformational theories of leadership. Okay. So communities, inspiring people, fellowship. So transformational leadership sounds like it's got some good things going for it. Well, yes and no. So, transformation and a related field charismatic series of leadership remain the most popular research areas of focus. And there are more publications on those schools of leadership than any other type of leadership. And then they're trying to make sense of how some individuals seem to have this potent impact on history, perhaps because of their charisma. Perhaps because of some other attributes. So very classic definition of leadership using the quote on the screen is that it burns. And the idea is a relationship of mutual stimulation and where leaders and followers raise one another to higher levels levels of motivation and morality. So as you said, leadership becomes about engaging and inspiring and galvanizing a community to face shared challenges and or see shared opportunities. Well, that sounds pretty good. But you implied the start of your answer that there were some issues with transformational leadership as well. Do you want to explain a little bit more about that? Well, it's quite a broad church and certainly some transformational leadership theories are still very leader centric. And so they might focus on what makes that leader so effective is it their, their wit or their moral persuasion or their character or their convictions. And so there's this very strong mental model still of the hero. And it is a very powerful mental model. I think, if we're honest in, you know, when we think of society, I think it's the mental model that most people have. Someone says leadership, we think leader, whether that's Paul Pullman or Donald Trump or Nelson Mandela. And so, I mean, please, please don't mishear me. And what I'm not saying is that there are no great men or women who have changed the course of history or will continue to do so. That's what I'm saying. But if we, if we see leadership purely or even largely in those terms, then we're going to actually have really quite a limited picture of how change happens. And I missed out on some important dimensions. And scholars talk about the romance of leadership where followers over attribute the group success to their leader. And that's what led to the importance of context or serendipity and luck and or indeed the role that followers play and that actually is an interesting area that that idea of followership is a growing field of study. Yeah, and followership it's become a little bit like purpose isn't it it's become very invoked recently. So tell me a little bit more about followership. And so followership recognizes that leadership is inherently about relationships and that leadership only happens when there is following and leading and I think this quote captures it well it is in following that leadership is created. And there are a number of interesting ideas around followership. People might have heard of the idea of the first follower the courageous follower who vigorously supports leaders and we also can see how followers can shape leaders behavior either by being resistant or being very proactive. And now some theorists have pushed that a bit further and said that actually separate the idea of leadership from leaders. And it's, it's more helpful to understand leadership as a process that is the result of the combined actions of leading and following. And that would be a constructionist approach to leadership and I would argue it's the interactions between people that create or construct the leadership. So leadership isn't about a leader leadership is something that the group shows. And in fact pushing this even further, if there is a leader, actually that leader is a purpose a sense of purpose. So to create what's on the screen there leadership in which the common purpose rather than the any particular individual is the invisible leader and it inspires leaders and followers to take action on its behalf. It's all getting a little bit abstract. So what, what practical differences do these insights make. Sure. What does it mean for the people. Yeah. Woman on the street. Yeah. Well the way in which we understand leadership the mental model that we have of leadership absolutely shapes shapes what we're looking for leaders and how we develop them. So if we have a mental model of the hero leader or leadership development will be about trying to find the next hero, thinking about the traits they need to develop those traits. And if leadership is actually about understanding the importance of context, then we will give leaders a deep immersion into understanding the world and how they can adapt to it and understand the times. And if we understand leadership as the interactions within a community. Well that stops to get us thinking that leadership can flow in all directions, leadership can take place at any level of an organization that followership is as important as leadership and actually exploring and trying to agree on a shared purpose is is crucial. And a very basic level what that means is that everybody has a role to play in leadership. I just, I really like this program. It's a number of years on now but it remains as relevant today by the systems thinker. And in relation to the idea of the sustainability revolution that change. If it happens, it will be organic and evolutionary it will arise from the visions insights experiments and actions of billions of people. That's that's super thanks Lou. So that effectively is our second trend. So we're moving from the heroic leader to this idea of sort of the collective creating change. Unish from billions of people to one individual in Israel. What insights have you got that you can share on this. Thanks Zoe so so I want to go back to the launch of my name marks and Spencer sustainability program in 2007. And yes, there was a heroic leader I guess at the start of that which was CS Joe Rose, who sort of came across the film and inconvenient truth. But actually what many people don't know is how systemic and how sort of co created and quite democratic, the change then happened became at Marks and Spencer. And how it became a sense of community communal change as opposed to sure so sure definitely gave it the right sort of launch pad. But he then gathered us to start off with his hundred strong leadership team, took them to cinema show them the film and actually got up at the end and said, you've got a few weeks to come up with a plan a plan that you know, is for every part of our business every part of our value change, not just a plan for one part, but all of it. And in doing so, a mobilizing them and getting them to co create this plan, but also making sure it was all encompassing. It was quiet. It became a plan that was relevant to everyone, which was very powerful, I thought at that time. And just to bring some context to that time in Marks and Spencer's history, it wasn't like, you know, the glory days where these things were easy to launch. This was a really difficult time and just fended off a very hostile takeover bit. Its share price wasn't where it wanted it to be. The profits were not where it wanted it to be. So this was very audacious. This was quite quite a courageous move. But we did launch it. And what then ensued was how this plan created by now 100 people had then became sort of weaved into the fabric of the organization, right from directors to heads of function and right down to sort of people in shops and sales advice, colleagues that were sales advisors in shops where each of them because of this very sort of comprehensive nature of it were able to relate to their part of plan A. So at a shop assistant level, they were able to relate to the fact that, you know, if they became more energy efficient, it would enable aid to reduce carbon emissions, but also as an incentive would enable them to earn more bonus as an example. And there's nothing that works better in a retail setting than chasing down targets and, you know, having incentives like that. It was very, very effective in that respect. And I think for me when you know a movement, I do deliberately describe plan A as a movement that becomes successful is when it becomes a verb in the language of the people that are in it. That's when you know it's not about one leader, it's about every person owning that change and being a champion of that change. You know, in the terms that we used earlier being sort of the follow the followers of this movement. And it's when you know I was at the printer and someone tapped me on the shoulder and said, that's not great plan A is it and I had to stop and follow. What does that mean? Actually, this program, which had 100 targets underneath it, had turned from a program into a way of behavior, it turned into a verb. And that's when you know that you've really, really, and then you'd hear it all the time in meetings and in corridors and, you know, it's sometimes very seriously and sometimes quite jokingly and you knew that you'd been in a movement. And of course, I mean, I sort of taken that further and have started mobilizing whole communities. So I remember when we launched beach cleans and across 200 different beaches across the UK. That took this concept and brought it to the customer and involved customers and supply chain nearby to actually go and clean beaches joined in this plan A cause really, really powerful stuff really drives loyalty. And of course, there've been other examples outside of Marks and Spencer recently where this sort of followership model of leadership is emerging. So you think about, again, a slightly atypical leader, Greta Thunberg, but then the kind of leadership that that has created at very an hour, over 100 locations around the world every time there's this sort of protest that happens among school kids. That requires its own sort of followership based leadership right around the globe, which is really powerful. And then one last example, I'd like to give to complete in a completely different way, which is I was watching the BBC documentary about the Chinese dynasties. And I think there's a lot that we can there's a lot of leadership lessons that we can learn from the animal kingdom and nature itself, and whether it's a pride of lions and how leadership evolves in private lions or a group of apes, etc, etc. I think there's some very powerful stuff in there that, again, can teach us a lot. So three quite different examples. So we've gone from the heroic leader to this sort of collective thought of leadership, and take us back to the fact that on this webinar we've got about 300 individuals will have many more that watch the recording afterwards and they'll be, as we said, aspiring or existing leaders or they'll be in L and D HR roles. Lou, take us back to what's the role of the individual in all of this. Well, individuals absolutely have a role to play and a collective understanding of leadership doesn't minimize the role of the individual. What it means is that it frees up individuals, arguably, to be their authentic self, to play to their strengths, and to have a unique contribution to play. And that of course has significant implications for leadership development. So perhaps traditionally, some organizations have used competency frameworks based on the behavioral school of leadership and they would identify a set of leadership competencies for certain roles within the organization and then help leaders develop those patterns of behavior. And now contrast that with the idea of authenticity, which I'd argue is crucial when operating in this interconnected world where organizations actually function more as communities and so leadership development becomes more about helping individuals grow who they are, and rather conform to any sort of standard and standard model. So Manish, does this idea of sort of the authentic leader, does that resonate with you? Very much so. So let me pick an example, take myself back to my place of birth, Kenya, and select a leader that's really inspired me in so many ways. Unfortunately, I never met Wangari Muthai, but she was the first Nobel Prize winner, female Nobel Prize winner from Africa, also the first woman in East Africa and Africa to earn a doctorate degree in 1971, which given how society was in those days is quite remarkable. But what Wangari Muthai is particularly known for is the Green Belt movement, which she created in 1977, and that spurned a whole wave and wave of action, which ultimately culminated in the planting of 51 million trees and counting as the most effective, as we know from various studies more recently, best way to sort of capture carbon from the atmosphere. And what's really powerful about this, about Wangari Muthai is if you listen to her and if you read what she's written is the one thing that, well, the two things that come across, but one in particular is how authentic, how believable it all is. But also how humble it is. And I think those two things go really close together. This concept of the leader has all the answers is not as believable as actually whether I'm launching a new sustainability plan or a new business line or whether I'm launching a movement, the Green Belt movement, I don't have all the answers. I am seeking them. You're going to help me solve those answers. And that, I think, feels very authentic because no one has all the answers. And that makes you believe in them particularly well. And it's a quote of hers. I'm very conscious of the fact that you can't do it alone. That really seems to me and she empowered thousands and thousands of women in East Africa in particular to find a sense of identity, a sense of individualism and also contribute much more, not just to planting trees but actually to create some subsistence for themselves as well through the Green Belt movement. And she created thousands and thousands of leaders as a result of that. So I think for me, you know, authenticity mixed with humility are really, really important leadership traits and that's, when Gary and Mathai is a great example of that. Great. Lovely. Thank you, Manish. That's super. So this sense of authentic individual leaders for change. How is that coming through in the Cambridge Impact Leadership Framework? Absolutely. It's a quote of that. And building on what Manish has shared. It's the idea of having and building confidence in the contribution that you can make that fits with your personality and your skill set and your inclinations, not trying to be someone that you're not. And then also on the side of that, recognising where you can use the leverage of others and the skill sets of others. And so you're playing your part but also recognising the part that others are playing within that system. Great. Brilliant. So can you give us some specific examples of that? Yeah, well, I think building on one of the themes that we've covered earlier and I think this is where the model takes us further. If leadership is about purpose, more than it is about any one person, I think that still has implications for individuals because it emphasises the importance of working through our own personal purpose in light of this compelling shared purpose for humanity. And that's not a simple discussion to have with yourself or others. And it becomes even more complex when we start to weave organisational purpose into that discussion. You know what happens when our individual values collide with our corporate values. What happens if our organisation's purpose is not where we think it ought to be given the challenges that we're facing as society. But having those discussions, the model would argue, is absolutely critical. Because if we don't tap into personal purpose, then we are failing to kind of harness the passion, the commitments, the creativity, our music to use the idea in this quote here. And that remains locked inside rather than tapped into and used to drive change. Great. So that's absolutely fantastic. And in terms of that, how that plays out in the impact leadership model, more specifically, and these are an excerpt from the model. This is about how we might nurture values. And you'll notice that there aren't actually specific values identified here. And what the model and the framework encourages individuals to do are to know themselves, so know what they stand for, their principles and convictions, understand what inspires and give a sense of meaning. And to do that, whilst also kind of encouraging other worldviews and assumptions to come to the surface and actually have constructive debates about what is moral and what is responsible, what is fair within the organisation. So less about specifying particular values and more about encouraging ongoing conversations on these things. So that's super. Not being prescriptive, but giving people the space to explore what that looks like themselves. Exactly. Exactly. So Muneesh, perfect opportunity to bring you in and get a sense of what that looks like for you. So late last year, I decided to take quite a big step in my life, which was after a very wonderful 21 year career at Mark's Suspenser. I decided that I wanted to move from one great pioneering organisation to actually using that experience to try and influence hundreds of organisations if I can. And I decided to therefore join the UK Green Building Council, which is a organisation that's mission is to radically make property more sustainable, works with 400 members across the entire property value chain. And also to work increasingly with CRSL with its many global clients from heavy industry to FMCG to finance and many, many more, to try and see how I can really leverage this burning purpose inside me, not to try and affect change in a broader set of stakeholders. And that's really powerful. One of the other things that I also do is I'm a trustee of a small charity. And not long ago, a few weeks back, I took a group of volunteers who have their own expense, both in terms of time and funding went out to help really disadvantage communities through the charity in India for a period of 10 days. And actually, that was quite difficult for them as individuals. I'm not only experiencing what I was as a person, but viewing what others were going through with me, which is very powerful. And I think all these experiences have taught me one thing is if you can get that jackpot of personal purpose when you've identified it, and I just want to add that that purpose certainly in my experience is not a static thing. It's a thing that is dynamic. It does change with time with things that happen in your life with the things that are happening to you and are happening generally in society. So my personal purpose 10 years ago was at a different pace to the way it is now. I now know having had the information that I've now got, the education that I've now got, that we are in a situation where we don't have a great deal of time to do something about the sort of challenges we face. So my purpose has changed, but where those two things align and you can do something professionally that meets that purpose, then you've hit the jackpot. And you can really, as I think that the music can really play inside you using that example that you had earlier. And there's a direct correlation in my opinion between those two things coming together and incremental effort, productivity, better peace of mind, just greater motivation and greater output by the individual. So I'm certainly finding that in my life as I get through it. Fantastic. So thank you for that. That's super. So thank you both for that incredible canter through both theory and what that means in person and Manish to you giving us those great super personal insights. So now it's time for questions. And thank you for the questions that we have come in in advance. I know that we've addressed some of those questions that came in advance through the course of the last 30 minutes. But one question that came up actually sort of two versions of it, which I'd like to address to you, Manish, if I may. So we had questions. How does a non senior employee drive senior leaders towards sustainability focus leadership and this other side of the coin is collaboration is key, but how to align senior executives who may have different motivations. So we get this question a lot as well in the high impact leadership course. So be interested in your reflections on that. So I also I think the model of what senior and what's not senior is changing all the time in business is when the more enlightened businesses are breaking down those kinds of titles and hierarchies quite quickly. But there are that that issue, whether you call it senior or not does still exist in businesses. And I think it's about, for me, it's always been about, I suppose, another word I use for purpose, but from a sort of more tactical point of view, lever, levers are great word and just understanding what are those levers or the purposes of those individuals that you can, you can turn to try and create greater action from them to support your particular mission. And that's what we're talking about sustainability where that's really important, but it can be actually what any type of change you want to bring about. And, you know, I've realized that times, for example, that kilowatt hours carbon emissions biodiversity gain are not the levers sometimes that particularly excite certain sometimes senior colleagues. And you have to go in there with just understanding what are their levers what what is it is it cost saving, in which case, you know, you position your message according to cost saving. Is it revenue generation? Is it creating a better product? Is it creating a product that's going to appeal to their customer a bit better and just trying to think of it in sort of business currency terms and not necessarily sometimes in environmental or social sustainability terms helps you sort of reach that purpose in them that that perhaps is harder to use the same language that you normally do. Super. And Lou, in terms of resources that individuals can turn to I know that you mentioned the embedding project earlier. Yes, yes. So there's an organization called the Network for Business Sustainability. They're based in South Africa and they have undertaken a number of very helpful reviews and pulled together a number of resources on this and other topics. And they did a piece of research looking at what drives and shapes CEO decision making. And then from that distilled out key practical advice for people seeking to be change agents. And that's part of a suite of resources called the embedding product and embedding project. And those insights would include the one that we just mentioned. But also things like being known for being absolutely committed to the business and a trustworthy advisor and a whole range of issues so that when you come to kind of try and push for change on on something to do with sustainability or a social issue, societal issue, you've got some traction there. Having wisdom on the right window of opportunity and when to bring things up making sure they're not a pet project but absolutely linked with the strategic objects of the company and playing into people's sense of wanting to have a good legacy within a company and beyond. And I guess tapping into people's ego on that basis. So I found that a very useful resource and I know that on the masters program on which I am part of the team and that's been a very useful resource for a number of our change agents on that program. Super. Now you mentioned the masters and one of the questions that we got in advance was around our business schools changing their curriculum to focus on new priorities and responsibilities towards societal good. What are your reflections on that. I think that there are some positive trends on this. I think, you know, some time ago we might have been looking at business and society as an elected module or perhaps you have to do a very specific MBA program that was absolutely targeted on one planet or something like that in order to get that sort of education and I think we've seen a shift in that regard. And I think that so a study in 2002 and called beyond great pinstripes and found that 72% I think of the top 100 MBA programs now had core content on business and society. Now those figures are out of date. And I imagine the picture is is more positive than that now. And I think we're seeing a growing interest from students and wanting to grapple with these issues. And one trend that's been observed is that there are a growing number of academics working on issues of business and society business and sustainability, who are then applying for the top jobs in business schools and so that they can therefore bring in that content, just into one module on business and society actually permeating the whole program. And the note of caution that I would add is that, or the question I want to ask is in that course content are businesses and leaders really being encouraged to tackle the most pressing sustainability social environmental issues that are that are on the horizon. And are we being are we engaging with the data that is out there about ecosystem decline and rising inequality and taking that seriously and actually thinking about radical transformation or is it still a nice part of the curriculum, something that enhances corporate reputation you can take it or leave it. So I think that will be the challenge there. Great to see it on the agenda. Are we actually taking it as seriously as we should be though in terms of the transformation that is needed. Absolutely. Yeah. I want to make an observation as well from a sort of delegate point of view. I'm a tutor on the online business sustainability management course here at CSL, which I thoroughly recommend and then if you look at the profile of people that come on to it. Increasingly there are people with job titles that don't have any sort of sustainability core functions in them. This is the big question I think whether it's for the UK Green Building Council or for CSL is how do you mainstream this how do you move it from being something that is the job of a couple of people niche quite specialist into actually this affects every part of the way you run your business and its future. I'm seeing some really positive signs through the kind of students that are coming through these programs, the kind of students that are on faculty or for some of the leadership programs that we do here at CSL with businesses, where actually it's no longer about sending your CSO to the course, it's about sending a cheap procurement officer or your head off, you know, head off sales to the course, because these are becoming from a business point of view quite existential as topics they're not about sustainability in the corner somewhere. Great. That's that's really useful additional insight. Thank you. So, Lou, we've had a question from the webinar you meant you quoted Amy Lovin's earlier. And we've had a question around sort of can you expand a little bit on the challenge, the challenging vision regarding the future. The publication I quoted from was called a final future. And it was, it was Hunter, Hunter Lovin's and then three colleagues that produced that piece of work. It was a report to the Club of Rome, sort of a global group of people interested in the, in the future of the planet. And, and one of the main thrust of that argument is that we need a new economic story, a new economic narrative, and one that is not premised on growth and consumption, but is very much about a regenerative economy. I read that book on my holiday and on a campsite in France, and it was very engaging and accessible. And what I what I like about it is a particular metaphor that stays in mind actually they talk about the progress that needs to be made and is being made as a ladder sort of emerging from the pit of where we are now to and that some people are still in the bottom rung of that ladder, but progress has been made, you know, in small incremental steps and others are aspiring to and slightly up that ladder and they, they sort of draw attention to the fact that sometimes there's the tendency to despise the progress that's already being made to sort of push down those in the bottom ring of the ladder as if it's not enough and yes there is more to be done, but actually the progress that business is making the new shifts that are happening around thinking about the circular economy and how we're starting to bring those sort of ideas into policies and business practices. And they are there very important and they are there to be built upon it's that idea, you know, working together and playing our part in the system towards this idea of regenerative regenerative economy where the economy is not seen as an end in itself, but actually as a means of encouraging life. Great. Fantastic. And remind us the title of the book so we can all put it on our holiday reading list. A finer future and creating an economy in service to your life. Brilliant. Super. Now we had a question that came in earlier around what is the type of leadership needed for the 21st century and does it differ between the public and private sector. So be interested in your views. Somebody has worked in the public sector earlier in their career on that. I think the answer to that question depends on whether you look at it as an empirical question of is there currently a difference between public sector and private sector leaders, or whether we ask the question should there be a difference, especially as we look towards future development needs. Now, in terms of that as an empirical research question is actually relatively little research on that and quite a lot of it is from the 80s 90s and they would draw attention, for example to private sector leaders being more fixed on short term goals and narrow measures of financial and public sector leaders thinking slightly more long term and with a much more complex set of stakeholders to please and private sector leaders and having a greater appetite for risk taking and innovation public sector leaders and being a little bit more apprehensive about doing that because of their account sense of accountability for public money. It is interesting when we start to think about those categories of short term long term financial measures of success other measures of success, based on the sort of things that we've been talking about in this webinar. I think those categories are starting to dissolve a little bit and by that I mean we've been looking at the importance of business taking an interest in the long term flourishing of society and ecosystems, because that is good for long term business so we're starting to dissolve that difference between short term and long term thinking. Equally, you know, the measure of success of businesses purely being about generation of as much financial capital for shareholders in a shorter time as possible. That sort of category is starting to disintegrate we're recognizing the importance of the business in creating value for a much wider set of stakeholders and thinking about businesses role in society and again, then you start to see that will maybe public and private sector leaders need to have that sense of the wider system, the role of any organization in its wider society, and what needs to change that. And then in terms of innovation and experimentation. I think that the challenges that we face as private and public sector are increasingly recognized as what we would call wicked, wicked challenges they are complex challenges that are multifaceted. It's never going to be one single act to make any difference there that aren't simple, elegant solutions, they are messy solutions that we need that will involve both public and private and other civil society NGO actors and playing that part there. And all of us are engaged in this sort of complex system, and therefore those skills of being able to see that system and working that system, I think will be as relevant to public and private sector. And so, yeah, I think that maybe, maybe there are differences now maybe they are less than they were 1020 years ago, and going forward, I think there will be increasingly less difference. Absolutely. And talking about the skills piece with certainly seeing individuals from both private sector and public sector joining our online courses, joining things like the leadership lab, these webinars. It's great people looking for the broader. Can I can I can I comment on that. So I'm also seeing this convergence as you've described it, but I'm also seeing another seaward which is the need to collaborate between those two stakeholder groups becoming much, much more apparently used to be a time 10 years ago so in business where you'd run a mile from either policymakers legislators or indeed NGOs and charities and sort of this sort of sector. So what we're now seeing is is not just collaboration but alliances actually between sector so we at GBC do a lot of work, particularly in one of our great sort of flagship programs is advancing net zero, which we've been working on for the last year so that that whole campaign has been given a great boost recently obviously with the announcement of the UK going net zero by 2050. What we're acquiring is is actually the whole industry coming together with policymakers surveys are very as a department of energy are very interested in the work that the industry is co creating what does net zero really mean, building center. So that's an example of an alliance actually that's really healthy as well. And equally, your science I've seen some big big brands now collaborating very actively very publicly with NGOs that you know they would be scared about many, many years ago. But now that sort of I won't name names but you probably have to work this out yourself but they're now co creating advertising campaigns that you know that that are viral hits on social media. So, I think that we're in very changing times and that operating context and the sense of urgency be it from a business lens or be it from a legislative lens but probably underpinned by huge public outcry, whether it be plastics fast fashioned there's so many now tipping points being reached where actually that both of those stakeholder groups are are recognizing the urgency and the changing operating context of having to work together being forced together to work. Yeah, absolutely. So about collaboration, co creation and as you said, those stakeholders but also social entrepreneurs individuals that make a massive difference. So we see this for example with the the Unilever Young Entrepreneurs Awards. I mean there is inspiration and great experimentation and innovation coming from all over. Yeah, absolutely. So I've got time for a few more questions. And seeing as we have you in the room niche, we have had a question from the webinar which is specifically on on planet which you've referred to a few times. And the question is how did M&S deal with naysayers I guess to flip that round. How did you encourage sort of broader sort of interest and involvement. I think I've spoken about the levers of change and understanding that you know sustain very traditional and very obvious sustainable levers on a language that everyone recognizes and everyone is motivated by so I won't repeat those that is a is a very big tactic and trying to engage people that has engaged. I think also recognition. I think recognition is such an underplayed thing. And I remember I recall at Planet we won over 200 awards. And then you know we didn't make a huge public deal out of them but we certainly did internally we really celebrated those. And I remember being awarded being part of the team that were awarded Responsible Business of the Year by the BITC, which is a tremendous accolade but remembering a little bit cheesily but very effectively being forced to hold the trophy in my hands. I'm being told that this is partly because of your contribution. And actually there are others that are probably not as converted as I will and who hadn't played as big a role but we're also holding the trophy. And suddenly when you start this seeing this sort of public recognition. You start seeing this sort of thing emerge 200 awards there's nothing more motivating even if you don't really believe it. Then actually being recognized and it goes back to the point is I think you made about sometimes you have to appeal to the ego to try and make this happen. And certainly an award is there's nothing more egoistic than receiving an award is that and also just flipping the coin. I remember holding planet awards for our supply chain. And I remember a CEO built our greenest biggest ever store being given planet supplier of the year. And as he came out of in tears, you know this is a macho property person came up in tears that this is the greatest moment of my professional career. This is worth more to me than winning my next. I think he was a bit taken by the moment. He said then my next contract that I might win with them and I saw the birth of my child which I did find a little bit strange. But I suppose he was so emotional at the recognition and the award that everything else didn't matter. And I think that's very powerful. Yeah. So it sounds like obviously the recognition piece but also thinking about the broader ecosystem in terms of whether it's suppliers, whether it's communities, employees, customers, systems. It's in terms of how you get it how you actually get it embedded. So we've had a question from the webinar on that point around embedding actually because obviously that's the Holy Grail terms of how do you bet purpose, how do you bet responsible leadership, high impact leadership so it is sort of business as usual. And we have the question is the collaboration between leaders and followers more important during an embedding period of change. I just wondered if you had any thoughts on that specifically. I'm not sure what the questioner had in mind in terms of more important than what. But a couple of reflections and what would be that recognizing the agency of followers introduces a little bit of risk into the whole process of embedding change because as you recognize that I want to encourage people to have their own agency and ownership of a project that necessarily means that they might then you push for something different or not stay on course. And that could, I guess, derail a project. And I find that a reflection from two authors that I mentioned earlier now I might not be able to pronounce his name right but Gujielmo and Palsuli and they talk about leadership within an organization needing to be about less role command and control and more about a like a mayor managing diverse constituencies and I think that that role probably comes into play when it when you start to embed change that you're constantly trying to encourage agency and ownership amongst a wide range of people whilst keeping people committed to the overall vision and and desired goals. And so that the idea of having that shared goal in mind but with the right amount of freedom to allow people to pick that up and run with it and pursue that and I think that in order any sort of embedding change to come back to your point earlier is about people really internalizing that new story, that new sense of where you're going and then there being the freedom to come out on that and maybe even push for more ambitious change over the future and achieve more than was ever intended. I don't know if you have any reflections on that. Yes, so I was involved in four generations of plan A at Marks and Spencer and every time I noticed that how the the reach of the sort of stakeholders we wanted to consult got bigger and bigger and actually at the end of the last one I was involved with. We actually spoke to, you know, almost every colleague. And I know also with Unilever, their sustainable living plan, they've certainly adopted the same approach as well about it being a much more consultative collaborative approach to creating sustainability strategy in this case but any strategy. Brilliant. Thank you, Muneesh. And that point actually where I think we're going to have to close the webinar so just a quick look at what's coming up. So our next webinar, as I mentioned, is on purposeful leadership, which will be held on the 12th of September. And other things to look forward to the next cohort for high impact leadership online course kicks off on the 31st of July. And we've got a leadership lab on the 15th to the 16th of October. So thank you all very much indeed for joining us today. And my particular thanks to Lou and Muneesh. Super, super session. So thank you both very much indeed. Thank you. Thank you.