 Welcome everybody back to Siegel Talks here at the Martinie Siegel Theatre Center at the Greater Center CUNY. My name is Frank Henschka and I'm the director of this center and this is the penultimate talk for this week in our series after four months. We have been traveling around the planet but also to New York in America to hear voices of artists, of theater artists, performance artists and how they experienced this moment. This is a time of corona where we are all faced with existential questions, situations and it's a dangerous, dangerous time. But it's different everywhere in the world and as we've learned from all our talks, lots we have in common, we are all connected but also individual experiences are different. And also enteros and solutions found for theater performing arts are different. America still is in a disastrous place, over 150,000 dead people, most probably 40, 50 million people with infections. It's 10 times more than 13, 14 times more than the testing suggests and and of course the leadership we feel is not able to address to help to protect people actually calling us. What are we saying these policies are murderous for some people and the disenfranchised communities who have not been in the center. We are suffering African-Americans are twice as likely to die from infections because of the long, long discrimination and and it's a hard time. Theater are closing small places are closing, nothing is open in New York City, restaurants you can't go inside. If you go through Midtown where our graduate center is every second store, it's barricaded even still it's a bit apocalyptic. We all hope that the election perhaps will bring will bring a change as much as we complain in in in the US here which New York was the epicenter at the moment. I know that the planet Earth and moved on to Florida and California, but there are places in the world that have been struggling with civil war with injustice is discrimination. And for a much longer time where the corona is just perhaps one of many things they go through one of those places is Lebanon and the city of Beirut. Two years ago, I think, and I liked it very, very much and the spirit of it was the American University. Or team. And, and so this is a place that matters that is important. You can see a city that came back from a civil war on the green line that divided the city. And we need to hear from from the Middle East and next to Tunisia or Tunisia, what I would say they will truly is an open city. And it's still so complicated. And I can only imagine what the corona crisis put out after the December uprising and now this incredible complicated financial disaster situation. So we have with us to artists to see the artists. Significant ones ones that are really at the front line. It's a Dima Mikhail Mata and Yara Nassar. So welcome. And thank you for taking the time to join us. Hi, thank you for inviting us. Yeah, so I will just say a little bit about both of you and then we go in. Dima is a writer, actress and a lecturer at a university for creative writing in English. A Fulbright scholar is a great thing and Fulbright has been so much good in the world. And she studied at Rutgers University in creative writing and she founded Cliffhangers in 2014. A bilingual storytelling platform in Beirut taking on a very old tradition and redefining it with new new ideas, new technology and new traumaturgical interventions. Her first play, this is not a memorized script. This is a well rehearsed story. She was in the Shack Festival at some readings in New York and actually was open in February 2020 shortly before the corona crisis in Beirut. Working on her play Yara is a Lebanese performer, writer and director, a theater maker and she's interested in inspecting her identity with respect to the collective memory and the paradoxical binaries of her society. And she approaches themes that often focus on the deeper function of social stereotypes and daily in urban context like Beirut, as well as the private and intimate space where we in you in your apartment or in our personal relationship. She got selected for three months residency at La Cité international design, she's a new work, the miss the potential of a hypothetical French woman and following her family and questions belonging to timing and decision making process and she is part of a collective that's developing a new work in Zurich and Station Beirut. And I think we said it will premiere in April 2020 so I don't think that really happened. So anyway you guys hope you will forgive me my introduction really this is about listening to you. Where are you and what time is it maybe you start. Well, I'm in I'm in Beirut I'm in my apartment and it's 7pm here. And yeah, and the sun is about to set so I'm about I'm participating in the talk and I will witness the sunset soon behind you. So if it gets dark we had once a talk I think it was from the Palestine and usually it gets so dark in the room so we had to put some light on but it won't. So I hope you will be will be in the light and enlighten us. What neighborhood are you in Beirut. Which literally means the place that looks looks out on the other places it's a small hill in Beirut. Oh so you're up towards the hill so you look down and you see the ocean and. Yes. Wonderful. Wonderful. And Yara where are you. Well I'm 10 minutes away from demo. It's also 7pm. I'm also in my apartment. I prepared the lights. Good. Yeah. Where you in. I'm next to the museum. So I'm down by the museum. So it's the end of the beginning of. The museum that with the director saved lots of this culture in the civil war by putting concrete around the. The classical. Sharpshooter still you see the impact of bullets. So. Quite quite a place where you are so how. How are you guys experience this moment what's. What is going on in Beirut. Yeah I would. Yeah I mean I can. Okay so I was actually in Zurich. After. I would like actually to mention the play because we worked on the play in February. And the demand I directed the play and we had been working for months. And then the revolution started in October. So we postponed the play from November to February which now seems like really long time ago but it's not. And then after that I actually went to Zurich to to work on the play the performance you just mentioned that was of course postponed. And then I went out as a form of publication. For the moment and I recently came back to Beirut so I've been here now for three weeks or four weeks. And it has been very weird to witness the pandemic and the economic collapse that is happening and all the political frustration that we're witnessing. And from the blissful town of Zurich where everything is very calm and beautiful and public space is very there for us to enjoy even during a pandemic. So it was really weird for me. And now I'm in transition actually because I will be moving for a while to Zurich to join the ensemble of Theatre Neymar. So yeah it feels very weird to be suspended in this moment in Beirut. And I don't know what to feel so much or but it definitely has changed massively in the four months where I've been away. It's really it's also apocalyptic actually and sad but yeah. I think for now I can pass the conversation to Dima. Well so as Yara said we premiered the play in February and then two weeks later the lockdown began. And so it was it was very strange because it kind of went from you know a week before that we had we had a party. We were out of bars celebrating the things we had accomplished and the play and and all of that and suddenly two weeks later there was suddenly nothing right. Everything closed. We were told to stay at home only supermarkets bakeries and pharmacies were open. And suddenly there's this kind of alternate reality that that began for us where you know we're all learned how to cook. And all stated home constantly reading about the pandemic constantly checking the numbers of people who are infected the number of people who passed away always reading all these articles. Okay now wear a mask now actually it's saying maybe the mask is not enough wash your hands actually it's not the surfaces. It's some right so all these contradictory articles that kept coming up and we were just taking in so much information that we were all just like balls of anxiety. And meanwhile in parallel the country was sinking in a massive economic collapse. The Lebanese pound lost so much value. Just to give you a little bit of an idea. A dollar was 1500 Lebanese pounds. And now it's fluctuating but it's around 8000 Lebanese pounds. What it was instead of having a dollar you have 10 cents almost. Actually I have to say something also the contradiction that happened from being in the street for months and months and months and occupying public spaces again and everything. For me when I came back and went out the first time and saw the downtown and all the streets empty. It was it was just it was like it was never there. This was very very intense to see. And I think the pandemic has been a gift to the government. Actually because it gave them room to to silence the people again or at least to try to silence the people again and to really get comfortable and spread all their oppression. So. Yeah, I don't know how much people do know but if I understand right in December everybody was on the street day after day Sahara I think she was called from. Well being on the demonstration says he really the entire city was involved and one or two or a small some it was a really a massive showing as a. Here the philosopher who was with us on Monday said that people like always on the streets will imagine a different life. We want to see a different model of the world you think things can be better. And they went out to protest to demand a share or share or share. It was a massive event. So was it an uprising wasn't a revolution. What what do you guys think. It's a revolution for sure it started on October 17. And, you know, I, I don't think revolutions end right. It's not because right now we're not in in millions in the streets it doesn't mean that we're not in the state of revolution. But yes for for about three months, we were in the streets every day we were blocking roads we were protesting. For about two million people in the street and we're only about six million people in the entire country so two million of us demanding demanding our rights demanding that's something change for something to change everybody was tired everybody was exhausted we were angry. We've spent years and years our parents spent years and years of just the same problems. Nothing had been solved the same people who are the warlords are now in government and they're the same. And so I think on October 17 people really just kind of collectively decided it's enough. As Yara was saying, you know, this was our reality for three months. And then suddenly, you know, there's the pandemic and going back to the streets that were for so long, full of people full of life and full of hope to be completely deserted and empty was very jarring and devastating. I mean, also now I took to go back a bit to to the pandemic situation. I mean, I did not experience it in Lebanon. And I think that was for me, I was kind of grateful to be honest, because I think I would have been much more triggered had I been in Beirut, because the stressors around us are really a lot. So, I think we already don't feel safe. We already don't feel protected. So it's the then the COVID-19 comes and heightens all these feelings. And I was very interested in how different communities deal with the situation, even in terms of behavior. I'm super obsessed with behavior in general, in relation to work. And so suddenly I everyone has has this new regulation on how to be in a society. And I actually have been working for 10 years in a hospital on different hospitals with an NGO as a clown doctor. So for me, this whole hygiene and immune like who's immune, who's not how we need to deal with different kids with different immunity. And suddenly it was super weird to see all this hospital behavior everywhere in the world. Should I put the mask like this? Should I wash my hands like this? Okay, 20 seconds to wash. Like it just became a super collective behavior everywhere in the world. And it took a whole new space or understanding of how also how we deal with each other when we're passing on the street. Like we move and then the person waits for us or that all these weird codes that we developed so quickly. It's like the opposite of being in the street on this rush and going and screaming and not caring if you're close. And so it's went from here to here. Oh, you can't see my hands. Yeah. As someone said, if you see a play about the prison, the idea is we all live in a prison. Prisoners if it's a play about the military in a way we all soldiers in hospitals or a film, you know, we are all patients. And now we do have as we think what you say, you know, every we all, you know, we all sick, the society is sick. The way of living things don't work. That's what everybody says. But in Beirut already, I remember from my visit was so complicated. Services and garbage and water or electricity. So do you think it got worse since the street uprising, or is it just not more obvious what an x-ray this just shows what is wrong. I mean, everything became exacerbated the economic collapse was was, you know, it was boiling right it was about to happen and this is why people took to the streets. And I think what the pandemic did is that it just exacerbated and accelerated everything. And so, you know, we've always had problems with water with electricity, garbage filling the streets pollution, etc. What ended up happening is that all of that just kind of took on such an enormous space, you know, right now we get about two hours of electricity a day. I'm sorry. Around what time is it like a special time they tell you. So, so we never know when it comes when it goes. It basically we're like, okay, the power is now on. Okay, we do, we do our laundry, we turn on the water heater, we kind of try to get everything done. You know, we, we can charge our phones charge our laptops all of that. So yeah, no, it just adds to the uncertainty it adds to how much we are, we are hyper aware of how much we're denied our basic rights, basically. And also to say that, for example, for sure, everything accelerated since now with the pandemic and everything. But the thing is that we've been accumulating for 30 plus years. A massive, a massive structure of oppression that is very obvious in some ways and less obvious in other ways, but it's been building up and building up and building up. So it's not also the first time that people go to the streets. The difference this time was that different age groups, and not only in Beirut, not only working people working in art and social NGOs or, or, or, or, like, it's not only an alternative group of people going to the streets, and trying to convince the mass, it was really everyone from different, different backgrounds. And this was the, for me, the difference this time. And this is why I had a different hope, always a bit cautious, because I think I'm always aware of the possibility of, of disappointment. But it did feel different. And now it's not that everything stopped, there had, there are initiatives, there are people camping since weeks in said this, which is an area where there is, they're trying to make a damp, which is super problematic on the ecological level, but also it will not bring water. It's just a huge deal to bring money to politicians, and people are camping there, trying to stop that from happening. They're going to different ministries to. So there are things happening, of course, with less smaller groups of people. So it's, it's not easy to protest for the pandemic. Yeah. And if I understand right, and please correct me if it's wrong, but now you can only get $100 dollars out, or so limited, you can get from the bank, or even good class families are struggling for money and food. And, and is that right? Actually, I mean, the, the days when people could withdraw $100 at a time. Right now, even if you have a certain amount of dollars or bank account, I think it's necessary that both currencies are. And so this is why a lot of people have dollars in their bank accounts. So right now, the bank is basic banks are holding them hostage, and they will give you Lebanese pounds instead at a very low rate. So people are not only suffering from hyper from the hyperinflation that is happening. So it's not even just inflated hyperinflation, but also we do not have access to the money that we have put in banks, literally our people's money is being held hostage. Because you have the two currencies, you can always spend Lebanese or in American dollars, everybody except for those. And so you're no longer able to withdraw the dollar for families, you know, to have an emergency or to buy food or someone gets sick. It's not, it's a disaster situation. So what, how did the performing arts coming in at the moment and perhaps also at the time of the uprising, the revolution. Did you guys stop, say we cannot do, we participate or was it part of the demonstration? Yeah, I would mean during the time. But we're talking since the lockdown or since the first let's maybe first go to December and say October November. How did you was the theater community part of that? Or did you say we have to stop and we just everybody else. For the first couple of months, everything was postponed. Like we, we were supposed to do our play in November and we decided to postpone there. Actually, when we did it in February, it was maybe one of the first or one of the first or the second play that that happened in Beirut since the since the revolution started, because there were a lot of talking about whether or not there should be art. At the moment. And, but I personally thought it was very important to focus on what was happening organically with everyone included not to directly take it to more intellectual space or. So actually everything stopped in the beginning and it was. Were theaters closed also like completely fucking in Sheila Guillermo Galdarons that they closed down there and they had the same on the street, they just closed and was a lockdown already in December. What status open? It wasn't like officially closed or open. I think just everyone organically made the decision to to push things to postpone things. And now with the pandemic, the theaters, I mean, it's not even really part of the conversation formally like there isn't a handbook that is given that says, OK, so we reopen theaters, but there's these restrictions. So each each institution is kind of handling it differently, but since the there's anyway very little infrastructure for theater. It's right now it's not even I feel it's not even in the conversation whether the theater should open or not or art spaces should open or not right now. No, there is nothing actually happening. I was supposed to do my new performance in September and now I just pushed it like months and months away. What what basically for me kind of how things developed since October is that I think for for a lot of us it was very important to be in the streets and protest and be part of the revolution and and and artists were of course in the streets, right? We were in the streets and whenever you you hear very catchy chants, you're like, that's probably where an artist is. So we kind of, you know, headed in that direction. And and so as Yara said, it's not that the theater is closed, it's just that we kind of everybody decided that this is not the time to put on plays, but Yara and I and I'm sure other theater makers, performers, directors kept rehearsing. I mean, we kept her it was very difficult because we had to focus during our rehearsals, but we were always like, had to put our phones away, but we were so gripped to it to see what was happening, you know, at one point we were rehearsing and people were being attacked by the police and the army in the streets. And, you know, I, I one day I just paused and I cried. But, but I think for me, theater is revolutionary. Art is revolutionary and queer theater I mean the play we were working on is an autobiographical play that I wrote about being queer in Beirut and among other things of course and so. And so this subject has very in the country. And so for me this was my way of contributing to the revolution and, and I'm sure Yara, I mean, believed in it as well because I mean this is why this play is our is our baby, you know. And so when we decided to postpone it to February and when things kind of relatively calm down. Normal, what is normal in Lebanon but normal life kind of came back, we performed and then and then to two weeks and then maybe two other plays. premiered during this window of opportunity and then was the lockdown. Everything was closed, of course, and as Yara was saying there's little to no infrastructure. The state does not support the arts. Everything is very much individual or group initiatives with little to no funding. And so right now I've been talking to a lot of artists because I'm actually writing an article about how to reimagine theater in times of pandemic and economic collapse and there is a little effort to to start imagining theater taking a little bit more space. So one of the theaters opened its doors for free to whoever wants to stage a performance and then the kind of the deal was to split the ticket like the revenue from ticket sales. So, but now we went into another lockdown, at least till August 10 and then we'll see if the government will prolong it. And so now everything is back to very uncertain position. Yeah, I know Dima and Mosul Yara too. I mean you were involved in the LGBTQ community, the Beirut Pride, I think in 18 and storytelling worker tell us a little bit and also it was very controversial, right? You were from the government police and lots of interference. Well, so basically in 2017 I hosted the first LGBTQ plus storytelling night to take place in Lebanon, and it was during the first Beirut Pride, so which is kind of just a small, not a small, I mean it was an attempt at kind of a small one week thing where you know different LGBTQ plus events would take place and then the opening event was cancelled because the people received threats from extremist groups. Then the storytelling night that I hosted was the next day. And so I get to the venue, which is this big rooftop, beautiful rooftop of an art space called Station and I told the owner of the venue and I told him nobody is going to show up. And about an hour later, 400 people were on that rooftop and the event went on for about four hours because people kept wanting to go up and share their stories and basically speak. And this is not only related to LGBTQ plus voices but to so many other voices that are marginalized, voices that are oppressed. We are given so little opportunity to express ourselves freely. And really the censorship in this country is absurd and getting worse and worse. They police the arts, they police what we post on social media, the level of oppression is ridiculous. So for me to stage a play where the story of a queer woman, for me this was very frightening but also very necessary. Yeah, it's definitely also getting worse as Dima mentioned. Like now it's getting to the level where if you post something on Facebook you can be called into questioning and even people who are in the streets and there is there's who are we're taking photos all the time like really looking at us taking photos so everything was being archived. It's, I mean, there is censorship, there is oppression but there was always a margin to speak up. Despite that and somehow find the loopholes and try to, to, yeah, to say what we want. But now I feel the consequences are getting worse and worse it's just getting really ridiculous. I don't know. It's like going back 15 years. And I don't want to sound too, to, I don't want to be it's not about sounding I don't want to be too negative and trying not to be but sometimes there are days and like, okay, we're really going backwards again. And it's, it's sad because it took really so much. I mean, as I mentioned before, this was, there were so many attempts and people also before us and the older and now that there's all age groups but also before they were a lot of people trying to, to, to creating the premise for us to also do something. You know, and now I feel very angry when I see that things are just being pulled back. That's my overall feeling a little bit. When you go back and even the great et al atnan, you know, the great writer, poet and painter, you know what she went through, she was trying to be there, be the art man, madman, seen section and ultimately also. She never came back. She's in their 80s, a great world perspective. She was not possible. Or even at that time that you all have to go through this again. So the wrong case of post can get you into jail. You can get you into trouble, interrogation or. Very active people. Yeah, people who are super active, very vocal about their opinions have been called into questioning and interrogation, and especially a few months ago, like starting December, things became quite aggressive in the revolution. Like December, January, there was a lot of police brutality and a lot of interrogation. So a lot of people would be pulled from the street and beaten and a lot of activists where we're called over Facebook. Yeah, over being vocal, saying what you, sorry, what is actually very like the level of corruption that exists doesn't shy away. It's insane. Like how can you actually call people for saying the truth that is so obvious, then, yeah. Yeah, and I think thinking of this, we've, and you might, you might know this because you know you visited Beirut and you, you've spoken to Sahar Asaf and I'm sure other theater makers, Frank, but every script that will be performed on stage has to be submitted to the to General Security to the Censorship Bureau for them to inspect it and approve or not for it to be staged. And so anything that pertains to religion, politics and sex is heavily secured, which, right, I mean, is little, you know, what else is worth talking about, one might argue, right, we want to attack political structures, religious structures, the patriarchy, homophobia, etc. Especially when you're a theater maker or an artist that engages in political theater and engaged, engaged art, then it becomes very limited and very frustrating and very actually sometimes dangerous to stage a play. Yeah, definitely. And part of that is also because, I mean, our history has not been resolved because, as Dima mentioned, we still have the same people who were part of the war, warlords now in power and we have had these people since the war ended, officially ended, let's say, or formally ended. So we don't have the, we don't have all the Civil War in history books. So we don't study that, for example, in schools, because it's too sensitive, you know, it's a sensitive topic. And it's so relative, like each person, depending on how they lived the war or where they were during the war, has a different take on what happened. So the coping mechanism is, let's not talk about it, but it's all the time there in every single thing, the names of the people that we see on the news are like, all like, like just representing the war constantly on a daily basis. This we have to take, but oh no, it's too sensitive to talk about this topic or about religions and sects and patriarchy. And yeah, but you look and it's like our parliament is a poster of that. So it's very, it's very schizophrenic. Napping of a president who said no, he was just in vacation, you know, and it is just incredible to see. So how do you deal with it? What you say you're working on the article and how to do theater in which is for me, it's not easy to imagine. So what do you say, what do the artists you talk, what do they say how to do theater, how to react to this pandemic in the situation or any, is there any recipe? Well, I've heard, you know, I spoke to at least eight artists over the past few weeks and and you know everybody is taking turns being very pessimistic and and feeling hopeless to some days feeling, you know, okay, let's be productive today. Let's apply for this grant. Let's write another page of our script. And then some days, you know, a theater director in her who's in her fifties who has witnessed the Civil War and has been, you know, in the theater for at least 25 years said that she said, I maybe I'll retire. I don't see the space for theater right now people are starving people don't have bread on the table and we're thinking about theater. So there are people who who, you know, perceive things this way and this is their reality and then there are other artists who say things are paused, right, things are paused, but theater is very resilient, art is very resilient. One, one artist mentioned, you know, the, that Shakespeare, you know, small anecdote that he read, you know, Shakespeare, when the plague happened, the theaters closed for three years. Shakespeare sat and wrote his sonnet. And then, you know, theater back theater bounces back theater transforms and adapts the, I think people are asking very similar questions. What is their space for theater in in times of economic collapse. If there is space for theater. And if we consider it necessary then what will theater be saying what will be what will we be talking about. Right. Do we address this massive elephant in the room that right outside the theater door. A few weeks ago a man committed suicide in front of the doors of the theater and in Hamra Street. He, you know, he left a note saying, I am not blasphemous but hunger is blasphemous. And so how right theater usually responds to life, whether by being in a conversation with it whether by opening an entire new conversation and imagining alternate universes right I mean theater is infinite. But what do we do now. Do we stop. Do we continue if we continue what, what do we talk about. I spoke with a lot of artists, you know, something as basic as how much will prices be. You know, how much you charge for people to who maybe can't afford. You know the same, you know, the prices of meat has have skyrocketed so for for people who are buying meat. If you cook, you tell them no but please pay this amount to attend a play right or are we for audiences, a priority. Will we stage a comedy, because people need to laugh or will that be too frivolous right all of these are being discussed all of these questions. I mean, I think also when when you are in a, of course there's the pandemic right everywhere in the world so everyone is asking how to do theater and art in the pandemic, but it's more about like sustainability and the form and the aesthetic and the when and and the how and and yeah but the layer here is that there people are also hungry and we don't have an infrastructure so there is no, there is not that there is not the safety where okay so the basics are there. Basic needs basic rights are there so we can take a pause and look and contemplate and think. So it's very tied to to the economy I think more than the pandemic. It's my opinion I mean I don't when it comes to Lebanon specifically because then I think art is essential. I don't think it's. I think it's it's absolutely necessary, but the problem is when when people are are being put in a position where they have to prioritize eating, or maybe even eating out once because they want to eat out in a restaurant where there are other people and, or going to a feature, then maybe they're going to go to the restaurants, you know, because it's less consuming also and it's easier and less mind consuming emotionally. And so this is the problem here that you know, I think we're in a position where we have to pick our priorities. And we don't have the release of saying okay it's okay I work from home I get paid. Everything's fine for a few months and I take this moment to reimagine things. And yeah, but that's that's the practical harsh way side of reality, but I do agree that theater is infinite and resilient and we have been through. I don't know if we have been through worse but we definitely have been through a lot. So there was theater there was art it never really stopped even during the war. People change the shape, you know, change the way but they found a way. Yes, definitely. This is something a lot of us think and yet as well. For this article I'm writing and so many of us said that we never had much. We never worked with a lot. We never worked with massive budgets we never worked with with a lot of resources, every theater for so long has been very DIY. You know, I have a few hundred dollars. What can I do. We, you know, if we can't afford to rent a space then, you know, some people performed in in other people's apartments we suddenly we're all minimalist theater makers with like a very, very minimalist photography and set and so we've we've always been pretty badass at making a theater from very little. And so a lot of theater makers and artists that I've interviewed and spoken with. I think so too is that we have been doing this for so long. A lot of people are saying we're not afraid theater is going to come back, it's just we have to reimagine the shape it's coming back in. Can I say that other ideas for reimagining? Yes. Various ones. I asked, I asked the artists, the question, you know, even if it's, it might not be applicable, applicable, how do you imagine, how do you imagine it. And actually, Sahar Asaf said that in Madrid she she once experienced a theater micro. So, you know, like very short plays happening at the same time in different rooms and you kind of, it was I think five euros to attend the play and that can be that or you can pay another five and attend another short play. And, you know, it was two to three actors with very basic set. So, I can see that happening. Somebody else said that we're going to have to find other spaces, right, we do not, we don't have $500 to rent a theater for for a night. So does this mean that you will, you know, host each other in our apartments, will we, you know, be taking over, you know, little art gallery spaces, or public space. You know, when you shared your, your kind of imagine, you know, imagine scenario, I thought, you know, it's beautiful if you want to talk about it a little bit. Yeah, actually, at the moment, I've even though I'm working on something that is very intimate with the audience in a closed space, but I feel that the need right now is to be in an open space for the people. And to, to maybe work by the seaside. I mean, we have a beautiful sea in Beirut that is super polluted so we can't swim in it so at least maybe we can be there together in an open space. And I thought it's, it's, it's beautiful to go back to sort of prominent prominent in the city just to be to be out with people around, around others and feel safe because I guess in a public space, we might feel safer right now than being less cold. It's less cold than sitting one chair. Yes, one chair. No, one chair. Yes, one chair. No, it's, it's weird to have these chair structures. It's sad. And I feel being out maybe it's beautiful, a bit more hopeful, makes us feel a bit more connected to the city again. Absolutely. We do not have public spaces. We have parks. And a big part of the, the revolution was to take back public spaces and, and I think one way of doing that, like Yara said is, right, we will assert our presence in public spaces by performing there. And then my goal is to have theater, since it exists, to experience something. And so, and, and, you know, right now social distancing is much easier if you're in a, like in a huge space and you don't have to worry about the chair that's next to you, you know, in a small, smaller theater. So, and, and then other other artists talked about Radio Place, the Zoukalk theater company, which has also been hosted their, their play Hedgings was streamed on HowlRound actually not too long ago. They said maybe the one of the platform. There's this Radio Place, you know, the other way of stimulating the imagination will, you know, sit in our own living rooms, maybe invite a friend or two, that's what I did. I invited a friend of mine and he listened. So, so maybe that also another. Yeah, so people can, meaning of something. Actually, it's interesting because as I was talking and listening, I thought that we really maybe need to go back to basic community. It's like a collective experience and somewhere outside in a collective space, but also Radio Place is something that was very common in the 80s and the late 80s during the war as well. There was this. There was this format and yeah, maybe it's a good time to bring it back, whether or not the things go worse politically, it's a beautiful format, I think, in all cases. However, may I ask, how did you both get interested? What was the moment in your life and why do you do it? What happened? Frank, do you mind repeating what you said? It kind of echoed and I didn't hear echo from you. Maybe you have a live stream on that sometimes happened, but most probably it's the connection. How did you get into theater? How did that happen? And what does it mean to you? What does theater mean to you? I don't know when that happened specifically. That's what I knew all my life. That's what I wanted to do. Of course, the what changed with the years, like how I imagined theater would be or the work would be, but I knew from a very young age that this is what I want to do. And I grew up also in a family of artists and I met a place in my life where I say I cannot de-contextualize that. Of course, it affected how I view things. Of course, it introduced me to that world very, very early on. In relation to the radio plays, my parents both did that during the 80s when my father came back to Lebanon from France, actually. And my mother used to translate texts and they would do them on the radio and he was touring in the war, basically. So I've been in theaters since I can remember. But for me, in my own journey has been very different and I cherish those differences and I love also that I have those references with my family. What it means to me, I mean, I don't know, I think it's whether I'm on stage or I'm writing or I'm directing or I'm in a thinking process for a new play or I'm collaborating. And I love to collaborate. I love to work with people. For me, it's an experience. It's a chance to discover others and discover yourself and say what you feel is necessary to say politically. Yeah. I didn't expect that question. It's never an easy one to answer. So there's a lot to say, you know, like then I can talk for like an hour now. For me, I'm saying for children that I was, you know, my parents were like, okay, we're done. And so I would stage these little performances at home as a way of just getting attention. So I feel like that is part of that. I feel the dangers of, you know, one narrative is that it's never one. But a very important reason why I'm a writer and a performer is because it's around stories. My father, you know, at every lunch, you know, we'd finished lunch and still stay at the table for hours. After that, having coffee and dessert and he would just tell a story stories about the Civil War stories about his childhood. My dad is now 90 years old. And so he has a lot of stories. And so I grew up with that. I grew up knowing the importance of stories and storytelling, the magic that a story contains and how it brings people together. And this is one of the reasons I founded cliffhangers in 2014, because stories do things that very little else can do. And so, and I think theater, the kind of the core of theater storytelling. And so for me, they're inseparable. And so as a writer and story, one with stories. So for me, it was a combination that made me can't see it. And so one of you is leaving. I mean, I, I, I'm not leaving. For me, I think that now there's a new chapter for a while. And I'm there, you know, I don't think about leaving and staying as a. I always think about the decisions like that as a temporary thing. For me, at least I, I think about the moment and now what's happening. Okay, I follow that that flow. But for sure I'll be coming and going back because I have a lot of projects here as well if they find the time. Yeah, it's definitely weird time to be leaving. Things. I feel like I'm leaving to Australia and I'm going to Zurich, you know, in Paris. And I feel like I'm going somewhere super far because of the situation, the economic situation also. Not just the traveling due to the pandemic, but buying tickets, buying a ticket to go to Zurich or. I heard your answer, but I heard your answer, but I haven't been that prompted that. Repeat it, repeat it. Question. Yeah. Question. Are you, are you, are you, are you, are you going to continue your work? The big city. All our places yesterday we had. Kelly Kelly from. She said it's hard of a move. I'm just going to, I'm going to put my headphones on. I think maybe that way I can hear you better. So just give me a second. It's cutting. It's cutting a lot. I might have, I might have answered another question completely actually, because. Also internet is slowing down in Beirut. It's fine in the beginning and it goes through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it is, you know, this is why it is so complicated. Most people do not do it. And that's why we hear so little because it is complicated. You know, how do you really hear what you have to say if there's only 12 electricity there, very few journalists, international journalists left in Beirut. So what we hear from you is of importance and significance. And so, yeah, Dima, so the question is, how is it, are you going to stay there? Are you, are you say also I'm going to make a pause for one year and focus or something else. Right. You continue to work. What is your plan? That is. That is the question, right? I mean, I am staying. If you had asked me this question before. February, I would have had a different answer. You know, I, I, I, I'm a teacher. And I host monthly storytelling nights. I, I'm also a right, a playwright and a performer. And, and I, and I feel like I was, I was doing so much. I was always, we're all aware that Beirut is not an ideal. City to be in. People have been leaving and immigrating and just giving up on the country for, for decades. All of my friends have already left. You know, and Yara is one of my dearest friends and, you know, it's, it's also, you know, and, and also my, my director. And it's, it's also another, a loss, a loss for me. Even though it's a temporary one and I'll be seeing her a lot and I'm sure we'll collab, keep collaborating. But there was a lot to stay for. There's a lot to fight for. And, and you know, whenever I needed a breather or a break, you know, I just in the past year, I went to London, New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York. I went to New York last year. I went to New York last year. I went to London, New York. I went to Sundance. I gave a talk and another city, et cetera. So it's good to take a break from bedwards. We all need that. But now that We have. We were stripped of everything. Right. we my friends and I talk about how we cry at least once a day um but but I'm here uh for now because my family my parents are here and so I I maybe wish I had a more uh grand answer that I I want to fight more I want to help resurrect uh you know something in this country but actually no I'm I'm here because of my parents but I know that I'll keep writing I'm still writing I'm I'm working on my second play actually I'm I'm writing that and um and when the theater is open we'll find a way to make theater but um I don't know if I love this um this country anymore and the economic situation of a theater artist so you say artists basically starving artists who's taking care of them how is it how is it um that's a good question the thing is a lot of a lot of artists um are not only artists they're they're teachers they um they have other jobs um and so uh several of them have another way to financially sustain uh themselves some people that's all they do you know yada yada being one of them the professional theater makers etc and so uh there are some emergency funds uh that some companies and some individuals applied for but there is absolutely no state support at all um and so anything that is helping these artists sustain themselves is purely uh coming out of personal initiative and personal effort and personal um um yeah just that basically um actually funnily enough I was interviewing one of the one of the members and founders of Zoukak theater theater company and he said you know that the government for a while suggested that they would give a small amount of money to uh to small businesses to kind of support them and and help them not uh close or go bankrupt and he said what if we tell them that theater you know is is a small business um I wonder if they'll if they'll give us some money actually a thing you know it's actually a job it is it is and a lot of theater makers and artists uh when I interviewed them they expressed their fear of uh people not wanting to pay uh artists right uh of uh of uh of the theater to to go back to how it was decades ago when people didn't make money of it you know they they did it because they loved it but it was amateur theater because um people would not pay you know we couldn't actors we couldn't afford to pay actors couldn't afford to pay directors etc and so a lot of artists are afraid for theater to go back to this amateur um you know um way of theater that um where they will not make a living out of it basically and that's a very significant fear and it is that's a long tradition theater in the middle east so many who do say no it's not true you know that the work which also we are covering marvin calcine is covering the our our upstages journal our publications it's a very long history and a significant one and it is heartbreaking to hear what you all say and how dangerous it is and what complicated situation is almost like a siege a military siege on the city and and it's about survival what keeps you inspired what are you guys are you reading something or listening or you're watching what what what how do you keep your motorwalk as someone said with us here you know how does that um we are said that from indonesia from the paper moon company you know so it's it's important but so how what do you what do you do what do you read listen to what you watch that's uh excellent there are some days when i when i just binge watch anything that comes up on netflix those are very uh real days but as artwork that sustains me um i recently finished reading um uh carmen maria machado's memoir in the dream in the dream house um and it's about a queer abusive relationship and so um it's very much related to the play i'm writing now and so i'm reading um i'm reading a lot about that i'm also uh one of the things that sustain me is actually seeing my parents um six feet away with a mask on but uh going to visit them and uh ask them to tell me more stories uh my my father actually suffers from cognitive impairment and so he forgets a lot of the stories and and so i'm writing a lot of essays about memory and um and inherited memories and what it means to to have a father who is 90 years old who is a wealth of stories but is slowly losing them and so um so a lot of what sustains me is actually going to see my parents and tell them tell me stories always tell me stories um as long as there are stories we're we're around we're talking to each other we are a community and for me that that sustains me and arabic indy rap oh yeah true what are the bands well my my very favorite favorite an artist i've been listening to non-stop a synaptic um a palestinian jordanian uh rapper and um what i love about arabic indy rap is that um it's angry it's engaged it's um it's coming out of a need to speak and which is you know what us as writers and theater makers also feel and and so you know i'm doing my dishes and i'm like yeah you know like getting all excited you know i'm just doing the dishes you know this this is also what sustains us other people who share our frustration our anger at our views at what is going on um in the world and in this region definitely i think music is um i i wouldn't imagine a life without music and angry music also and it's uh it's necessary i mean uh i've been listening to a lot of uh afro funk music and also rap i i not a synaptic but taffar also is a really cool rapper uh and uh brel i always love to listen to jack brel he makes me sad and happy and everything at the same time and and uh i movement sustains me i i need to move i need to train i work out a lot as a form of meditation it's it's what keeps me a bit balanced um it makes my head very calm i've been working also on my text on my new performance because i i've had such an urgent need to do it now and i had to deal with the fact that okay i need to push it uh for a certain amount of time so i've been revisiting the text and working on it speaking of families i'm also working on the video archives from the 80s and the 90s of me and my family in the house where we were just constantly filmed doing nothing so i'm working on the archive so it's a lot of family as well um which is nice but complicated um and yeah i've been reading um a novel by alise zenithair who's an algerian french writer called the l'art de perdre and uh Roland Barthes as well uh fragment d'un discours amoureux and i've been reading Octavia Butler actually as research for a performance i'm working on with Neumart so it's like a book for a different part of the day um yeah i also like series but i haven't had patience recently for series somehow i'm too too jumpy to focus on series somehow yeah and it's uh one of the things that you know if you want to look at uh some form of silver lining um for what we are going through is that suddenly um works of art plays uh artists that we would not have had access to are now accessible to us right everything is being streamed theaters in in various cities are streaming their performances and um and and digging things up from the archives and making it available for free online and so yes everything sucks but we've had more access to art than than before in um in this country and i'm sure and i'm sure people um in different parts of the world are feeling the same so yeah it's beautiful a change we're coming too close before maybe we ask what you tell our audience what to think about what theater inspires you what theater makers do you look um up to because you as you say you in europe or the u.s people go to theaters and festivals and have access to it perhaps not as much travels to lebanon but what theater what theater makers really inspire you who do you follow yeah i don't would you i always feel uh i have a blank mind when uh when i'm asked that question it's like asking me what is your favorite book or your movie or um i uh i followed uh i follow i don't know i can't think of a name right now uh it feels like another life somehow but uh i i can say that i love theater that uh challenges me and that gives me new uh new realms to discover i don't like to uh to to see the same things uh being uh being produced out of uh out of uh it doesn't inspire me when i feel it's the same topics and the same even though sometimes the topics are pressing and then they're they're like echoing everywhere but i also feel super happy and inspired and curious like a child when uh when i'm surprised by new topics and risks and uh yeah i can say this as a state of being it inspires me but honestly i don't know sorry i just had a blank of i couldn't now have a reference somehow maybe it's will come um for me i and i mean i feel the same uh way yara does that it's so hard to pinpoint but right now i'm thinking a lot about uh amade rafael chouri they're uh they're a trans geordanian german uh playwright um based in berlin and um and they wrote uh the first play in beirut or in lebanon about um queer uh and trans with queer and trans stories and characters and so i um uh i consider her or and them they they use various pronouns um kind of the the the fairy god human of the kind of theater that i also make and so i consider them a very important figure um to be inspired from and uh i also i'm thinking about theater mitu uh based in new york uh i'm sure you're familiar with them uh i've uh had the pleasure of working with them of getting to know them spending time with them both in beirut and why you Abu Dhabi and uh in their space in new york and i was actually supposed to uh be there working with uh ruben and and the company in april uh for kind of a re uh imagining of my play and so of course that is postponed to who knows when but i i you know similarly to what yara said i love theater that takes risk that experiments that you know people sitting together and thinking if we had no limits what can we create what do we want to say and how can we use everything that is around us to say it and so i'm a huge fan of their work i'm a huge fan of them individually and as a as a group and um so yeah i um i miss experiencing their work and experiencing working with them yeah to mention them i mean about to so i'm getting closer to to the end a little bit over time a little bit more about it this is really important to hear from you so what do you say um you who have this economic catastrophe limited electricity uh not the access to food as you would need theaters closed and so forth what do you think what do you say to young artists maybe also the one who are a bit like me we are more privileged our listeners what what should we use this time for what should be the time of corona what is what what is the meaning what meaning can we create from it what should we do in this time what is of importance um i i don't know where to to begin to answer that but you know something very you know that that i can think of right now is that you know what i said earlier about theater being infinite art being infinite art is art is healing but art is also revolutionary revolutions have been started because of books and and so we must be doing something right um we're we're important and and in times when we feel so small when we feel so helpless i think it's it's um it's revolutionary but it's also a way of survival to know that we are important and the work we do is important even if we're not making it right now in this moment because of all the obstacles we will go back to making it and and and art is always relevant and not only relevant but essential to to the way we experience life and and i would never want to live in a world without it and so it's just a reminder that what we do is essential uh if i the internet was cutting a lot but if i understood right it's also um i mean what what to say to other people maybe who are a bit more privileged and in that sense or and this word echoed a lot for me and i feel it's very important uh if anything positive comes out of this pandemic that is happening everywhere it's to be aware always of the privilege and the different different uh different privileges because uh there's a lot and uh and uh to be aware and and understand yeah i i feel this this has been very present right now on social media people questioning their privilege and uh and i think we need more of that and not just speaking about solidarity as a utopic uh sexy topic you know but actually about actual solidarity and educating ourselves always towards the other and um truly and trying to understand the art of other people and their background and maybe questioning again our references you know and uh yeah who who do we always take as reference and why and i feel it's a good time to question everything i i feel that and that doesn't mean we need to stop or pause or not do arts because uh art for me is a process of constant questioning that's what we always should do you know of course yeah we should be sure and we should have confidence of but we should always have a bit of doubt i find that for me beautiful um to uh to actually be in a state of questioning that is the ultimate collective play of the world now because everyone is in the process of asking questions so um yeah yeah that's a significant and so also the privilege of being privileged right the privilege of having being able to question your privilege is already such a of course you know of course education is a privilege being doing what i love is a privilege you know there are different uh different aspects of it yeah all we had is uh don't see that french philosopher who said when he was here was about life and art and life is it was of course we now think about the value of life but now we have to think what is the value of the value of life we all know now we have faced questions more than them say artists always have done and that's why it is important to really hear from you and get that message from you because uh there's a temperate of this moment and who knows how it will be in a couple of months or half a year and so it is uh significant uh what you had to say and thank you for the update we are you're part of the world the theater community of a global community what you do is important the storytelling your plays and about your experiencing of growing up and your identities and and collaborations with european theaters of the day is something that or connects us and it is really heartbreaking uh to hear how it is that you know as i'm sure that i love my country and uh everything becomes so potentially next to the over the next if perhaps the economic situation is even more complicated and it's just one of many many things it's a truly um my heart for you and everybody know all of your colleagues and i want to thank adam ashrat el sagy who is a student also at the phd program with us helped us to make this happen so thank you adam that was a really important um that we hope for you please do stay let us know what perhaps the new york theater community can do you know to support um what what do you think what what should what would be of real help i think it's um for me it's too soon to tell i think especially that i mean new york is struggling you know um i mean and we should never compare struggles right uh rock sand gay right said that's not the oppression olympics but right now the struggles happening in the united states are very real and and i think you know when when i listen to other talks when i when i experience art that is done by people from other countries this sustains me and and i can only hope that our work does the same for others it really really does it gives us uh you know comfort and also that we are not alone in this and that we care deeply deeply care and i really thank you for joining us tomorrow we have richard schachter backed with us for what i've been working here on director as an educator editor and researcher you will join us again he's preparing a special issue for tdr his great theater magazine journal and um and also to you know try to make sense out of it i'm additional meaning we're going to take a break in august and we will see what how develop so we go from here so really thank you for for joining us and all my best and uh and uh uh and uh stay safe also our audience stay safe wear a mask stay tuned thanks to you really for listening so many have listened in also two colleagues and artists from around the world that's very meaningful for them to know for people to listen to care and also know that you guys listen to others so this is uh quite a significant you know that uh the little sense of community especially also in u.s that tends to be isolated after all it's also island just a very very important island and uh well thank you so much for hosting us it's um it's been very important and and significant to have this conversation so thank you very much for that thank you yes definitely thank you to asahara if you see her and everybody at the uh her theater company so uh hope you will be able to join in tomorrow thanks again to howl round for the uh bj for hosting out from the seattle team and the danyang and uh you guys are now it's a dinner time you all said you learned to cook again or even more so i hope you will have a good lebanese food so all my best and who knows one day you might all be in the ocean in very long time so i hope yes absolutely have a good rest of the day bye