 And welcome to On the Waterfront with Melinda. I'm your host, Melinda Moulton, and today my guest is Gary D. Carlos. And I am so excited to have him on my show because a couple of weeks ago, Gary had me on his show, and now the tables are turned, and we're going to find out all about Gary and his life and his work in Burlington. So thank you, Gary, for being on my show today. Oh, more than welcome. Thank you. I'm honored. Well, I so loved having being interviewed by you. You're a terrific interviewer, so I hope I can do half as well as you did with me. I want to start out by allowing you to share with our viewers a little bit about yourself. Where did you come from? Who was your mentor? Talk about your early life. Sure. I was born in Dunkirk, New York, which is along Lake Erie. I just lived there for the first year of my life, and then my family moved to New Jersey. My father had just graduated from Fredonia State College as a music teacher, and his first job was as a music therapist in a neuropsychiatric hospital in Skillman, New Jersey. So we were living in Hopewell, which is right next to Skillman. And that was a very, it was an amazing job for him, but also probably within that, I'll tell you a story that probably shaped a lot of who I am today. So like many fathers, my father would take me to work with him. And so I can remember one day where we were maybe three years old, we were walking in one of the buildings, getting to where he worked, and we would walk down the steps. And at the bottom of the steps was literally a cage. And in the cage was straw on the floor and a naked man in that cage, someone with probably profound disabilities. And then we made a left-hand turn into this big hall where my father worked with people who had pretty severe disabilities. And most of the world had given up on these people. And then, so my father as a music therapist introduced music to them. And the smiles on their faces, the joy that he brought to them, the connection that he made with each of them, that they mattered to him was really, in many ways, it kind of seeped into my brain, so to speak. And so years later, when I was much older and thinking about what I wanted to do with my life, and I remember the day when I decided to become a social work major in undergraduate school, a lot of that focused back on that day with him, just seeing what A, what love can do, and B, what music can do. It's a universal language and can bring joy to the most difficult situation. So that was my early life there. We moved to three different places in New Jersey. I literally was brought up in probably East Brunswick, where my father was the music teacher at East Brunswick High School. And I ended up having him as my teacher for four years. It was quite a nice time for us to be together. So, yeah, so that was my early life. My father is one of those people that certainly I looked into about how he handled life. He always was not only just a music teacher, but he also was a leader within the music field. And when he would have quartets, he would play night clubs. He was a jazz saxophone player as well. And he was always the leader of the group. He'd negotiate the contract with the bar owner, or, you know, he was eventually later in his life. He was the president of the music union in New Jersey and, of course, was the band leader. And so, yeah, so he was certainly a played a big role in my, my life in many ways. Love children, love working with people, brought joy to thousands of people through music and through who he was as a person. Yeah. What a beautiful story. Did you ever get into music? Did you follow your father's? I did, you know, I was a saxophone player as well. And, but, you know, I think there's musicians and there's people who appreciate music. And I fall on the appreciate music side of things. He had a gift. He probably had in his head over 400 songs that he could play at any point in time. If you said, you know, play Moonlight Serenade, he could play Moonlight Serenade. It was that kind of night. So it was a great story. It's probably another one of those times where your life fears to the left or right. So it was a summer school for music. My father was, you know, during the summers, he would have a music class and a band. And so I was in it playing first alto and we were playing the song Moonlight Serenade. And so he, I knew, he knew that in that song was quite an alto sax solo. And so here was his son's coming out, so to speak. It's like my turn comes, I stand up, start the solo, and I could not get a note out of that saxophone other than a squeak. And about 30 seconds into the squeak, I sat down defeated. He must have felt terrible at what was going on. I don't know, it was either my jaw was tight or the reed was not right, but anyhow, or there was a leak in the padding, whatever. But it was, it happened. It was one of those things that happens. But I think in many ways that kind of symbolizes how I was not going to be the jazz saxophone player that my father was. And he was so good that it would have been hard for any son or daughter to try to replicate what he was able to do with that instrument. He was an amazing saxophone player. So I moved in different directions, but certainly influenced a lot by him. You certainly had moved into a direction that your father guided you to with all of your service, your selfless service to our community. So tell me what happened, where did you, your teenage years were in New Jersey and then where did you move on to? What brought you to Vermont? Yeah, so I went to Cain University in New Jersey for undergraduate school and social work, and then started, I went to graduate, actually another one of these turning points in life. I had been accepted to Columbia University graduate school of social work and got a full scholarship. And I was all excited. I was going to go to New York City. The thread that I was filing was community organizing. And about in June of that year, I just graduated from school and I called Columbia because I hadn't heard about the full classes yet or where I was going to live. And I wanted to get more information about all this. So I called the office and they said, well, hold on a second, Mr. B. Carlos, we want to check something. So they, there's a pause on the phone. They come back and they said, we have made a terrible mistake. We put your acceptance papers in the rejected file. We have given your scholarship to someone else and we can only offer you half of what we were originally going to give you. Well, I was crestfallen because there was no way I could afford Columbia on my own. And so I never went. And I ended up going, working in New York, New Jersey for three years as a social worker in the corrections department. And they had a community-based correctional center there. Then at the end of that, I went to Michigan State to graduate school in criminology because I, all the things that I saw in the correctional system, which bothered me, I wanted to do something about. So I thought if I get my PhD in criminology, I can help reform the correctional system. Well, after a year, when I walked into graduate school, I found myself sitting with about 18 other police officers. It was the most conservative graduate program that you can imagine. It was not for me. So I finished a year there. At the end of that year, Eugene McCarthy happened to be giving a talk. He was running for president as an independent since 1975. And he, and I was captured by his vision of what the country could be. And so my partner and I decided to volunteer for him to get him on the ballot in Michigan. And then off we went. After that we were asked to go to Maine to help him get on the ballot in Maine. We ended up visiting 23 states around the country with him, helping get him on the ballot across the country. And in the end, we went back to Washington DC and was on his staff until election day. In fact, on election night, I was in a hotel room with Eugene McCarthy and a few of his other staff watching the results come in. And they weren't, it wasn't pretty. Where he was doing quite well, but as a third party candidate at the end, people had to decide do we vote for Eugene McCarthy? We believe in, or do we vote for one of the other two candidates? I guess it was Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford to knowing that that vote might matter. So he ended up with less than 1% of the vote at the end. And then from there, I had to decide, well, where do I want to live? And a friend of mine had invited me up to Vermont where she had moved. And a bunch of my undergraduate friends had moved since 1972. So I went to visit them and fell in love with the city. I remember we had lunch on Lake Champlain in June. And you look at the lake and the Outer Rhondacks and this great city behind it. And I said, oh my gosh, I've got to move here. So I did and finished my graduate work in counseling up at the University of Vermont. And it's been a love affair ever since then. Wow, how exciting. So you actually got your toe dipped into politics in a really big way. I did. And I wrote about that. I have an unpublished book that I wrote that actually, all the stories that happen in a seven or eight month campaign when you're traveling around the country and the election laws and all that kind of stuff. It's a nice manuscript that I have from those days. When I moved to the old north end of Burlington, within five years I was running for city council in Burlington and was fortunate enough to win. And I spent three terms on the city council in the early 1980s, part of the early progressives that were moving into the city and working with Bernie. How exciting. Bernie's rise in his career. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. So this gives me, this gives our viewers a real good background on how you sort of ended up where you ended up in your career starting from the very beginning and the influence of your dad. So let's let's move into a little bit about, about what you've done since you came to Vermont. Share with our viewers some of the extraordinary work that you've been doing in, in what you've been here for almost 45 years. Yeah. Yeah. 45 years minus 10. I was in Washington from 93 to 03. I was chief of children's mental health for the federal government. But most of my years have been in, in Vermont and in human service administration. There was a point in time in my life where actually, you know, it was, I had to decide what I wanted to do. I was on the city council for three terms. I had been at the same time I was on the city council. I was a service at the university of Vermont in the counseling center. And it's thinking of running for mayor of Burlington. And then my daughter Emily was born and. Emily has special needs and I, I realized that I couldn't take that risk. That risk in politics with my daughter just being born. So I decided that I was going to focus more on the administrative side of human services where I could make a decent living. Hopefully do good for the community in the state. And I started with the department of mental health and I helped shape a children's unit there. I helped design a children's mental health system and became deputy commissioner of mental health and developmental disabilities for about six years. And then from there, I went to Washington for 10 came back to Vermont. And for a while had a consulting business. That was focused on. Training up people to be savvy leaders in, in community systems. And being particularly sensitive to communities that were in a change mode that were moving from one point to another. And then after a number of years of doing that, I was asked to help out the turning point center of Chittenden County for a couple of months. They were in between executive directors. So a friend of mine who was on their board said, could you help us out for three months? And I said, I'd be more than happy to do that. I walked into the turning point center of Chittenden County, which is a recovery center for people when recovery from alcohol and drug addiction. And I fell in love with what was happening there. I mean, these were people that were climbing out of years of addiction. And no matter how many times we're beaten down, wanted to do something for themself. And this, this safe place that was created. Was what gave them the room to grow their recovery. And so that three months ended up eight years. I had a lot of wonderful people, amazing people, talented people. And it was interesting at the same time I was doing that. My wife, Barbara and I had taken a little vacation to Manchester, Vermont. Took a history tour down there. And I saw I was about 62 years old when this was going, all this turning point vacation. And I, in the middle of the history tour, I'd said to Barbara, I said, I mean, I could do this in Burlington. Nobody is doing any history in this great city of ours that I happen to love. And I'm, I'm a history, I have a lot of interest in history. And my father besides being a musician was a Abraham Lincoln aficionado. He probably had 50 to 70 books of Abraham Lincoln that he had read over his lifespan. So I loved history. And so I came back to Burlington from that vacation. And thought, I can put together a history tour of this city that I think people would really enjoy. And having been on the city council, you know, steeped in its history. And so I did. And because I took that three month gig that turned into eight years and was full time, I did the tours on the weekends for all those eight years and connected with the road scholar program, the holiday program at the University of Vermont. And then my own tours and it's been a wonderful thing. I've just enjoyed doing it. It's got me even more close to the work. It's got me even more close to the history of the city than I ever thought, but I would, I, I'm always reading about something new about the city. And yeah, so here I am almost nine years later. Still doing those history tours and still loving them. Well, Gary, we're going to move into that in a minute, but I do want to tell our viewers that you did receive some major federal and national awards in recognition of your outstanding service and leadership in human services, vice presidential hammer awards for government innovations. And the first national wraparound award for changing public policy to promote wraparound. So I want to congratulate you on that. And for your accomplishments and for your service, helping people to reclaim their lives. It's noble work. And for that, we all thank you. I'm going to move now into your business that you have now called Burlington history tours. And I became exposed to that through Facebook primarily and was not really aware of what, you know, I'm hoping that all the history that we have down here at Main Street Landing is part of your tour. Because we do have a lot of history and we did a video on the history of the Burlington waterfront, but why don't you, why don't you walk us through what it would be like for somebody if they wanted to, to, to take your tour? What, what's the progress and what would they see? So I, whether it's a walking tour or a band tour, and I don't give both some people just, they're not able to walk that, you know, that many steps around the inner part of the city. So I have a van and holds up to 10 people, but we start at Battery Park. There's so much Lake history that, that we, that's right there in front of them. So I, I start them by talking about two large Indian nations that were right in front of us, the Iroquois and the Algonquin nations. And then, and then talk about Champlain coming into the lake at one time and had a profound impact on where things ended up because of his visit. I mean, he brought guns. And they had, those Indian nations had never seen a gun until Champlain came into that, that lake in years and years ago. And so, so we start there. And then we come through the French and Indian war, the Revolutionary War, a lot of it happening right on the lake in front of us here and right in Burlington. And then I talk about the early development of the city. And then the war of 1812, you know, there were 4,000 soldiers wrapped around Battery Park. It was the jump off point for any conflict with Canada during that, the war of 1812 and the battle of Klatsberg as well. And I focus on some of our Civil War generals, because we have the statue of the King, the King of England, the King of England, the King of England, the King of England, and the Civil War generals, because we have the statue of General Wells in Battery Park and talk about him a little bit. And then I go down, if we're in the van, I would go down into the, where Burlington began as a village, down at the bottom of what we call Battery Street today and King Street, that area there. And there's some significant homes, Dr. Pomeroy's home. So we, you know, I take them through there and then I bring them up. I show them the Follett House, that beautiful, where Pomerolo real estate is, talk about that history. And then we weave up to the university eventually and the history around that, General Lafayette visiting. And then the three public cemeteries, where Ethan Allen, Ira Allen are buried and any Civil War generals in Lakeview, Ira Allen and Ethan Allen are in Greenmount, which is sadly a forgotten cemetery in this city. And I'm very troubled by how the city is not kept it up. But that's another story for another time, perhaps. But yeah. And then we entered Ethan Allen's homestead. It's about a two and a half hour van tour. It's about an hour and a half walking tour of the downtown area. Great history, much bigger than sides of the city. So how do people, how do people sign up? Well, they would, most people, TripAdvisor is big, my biggest fan. People go to TripAdvisor, they're gonna vacation in the area and they'll see, I think I have almost all five stars. And so they would just send me an email. I have a website, going to historytours.com. Yep. And they would usually send me an email or call me and then I'll make their reservation. And I'll meet them at Battery Park at 10 o'clock one day of the week. And away we go. God, that's fascinating. Now, how many years have you been doing this? This is the ninth year I'm right now. Yep. November will be nine years. Wow. People from all over the world. Come to do your Burlington history tour. I, you know, yeah, I've met people from all over the world and, and then many Burlington citizens too, that have an interest in their history. But I, it's amazing. So tell our viewers what it costs to take your tour. So if it's a walking tour, it's $40 per person. If it's a van tour, it's $45 per person. That's so affordable. And so to my viewers, I don't care how long you've lived here. I'm sure Gary has a lot of information that, that none of us know about the history of the city we love. Visit his website at Burlington history tours, all spelled out.com. Is there a number that they can call you do, or do you prefer to do? You know, they could call me at 802-310-5255. Let's talk for a second here because I, you know, we're coming to the end of our interview and my gosh, I could talk to you forever. Let's talk a little bit about this history museum that you're talking about. Well, you know, yeah. So one of my, I think the city is missing something. And that's a museum. I mean, there is so much history in this city. I'm not going to be able to do tours, you know, for into the infant item. I mean, my day will come and we really could have a wonderful museum that, let me give you an example. I gave a, I was giving a lecture a couple of years ago on Civil War generals of Burlington. And I was mentioning General Wells, who the statue is in Battery Park. At the end of the lecture, a gentleman came up to me and he says, Gary, the picture you showed of General Wells when it was unveiled in 1913, the 50th year anniversary of battle of Gettysburg that Wells was a part of. He said, my grand, great grandfather is in your picture. And he showed me where his great grandfather and he said, every soldier that attended that event that day received a book of all the soldiers that Wells led and a medal was given to them. And he had the book and the medal with him. And I said, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Well, that book and that medal should be in a museum for others to see. This gentleman went home with those who knows whatever happened to them. Another time I'm, you know, there's what we call rock thunder or Otsi Otso out on the lake between Juniper Island and Shelburne Bay is a little outcropping rock outcrop as a lot of history, both from a Native American point of view, a rock-and-rock rock that's a little bit more complex than the one in the River Rock. And we've talked about it. It's a lot of history and history and history and about conquering nation as well as the Revolutionary war. Well, there's a long story. We don't have time for the story. But a couple gentlemen had dove in that right near that rock and pulled up cannonball. And those cannonballs should be in that museum. They're not because we don't have one. museum that would be tied in with Ethan Allen. Well I think it should, they think they should have a relationship for sure. I think it should be downtown, it should be a place, you know, much more in the center of the city versus Ethan Allen's homestead. Well why don't we collaborate on that? That would be a fun project. I would love to do that. And I think I want to tell you as my husband always wanted to do a history of Lake Champlain in like an eight part series for Vermont Public Television. And you know, he's a filmmaker and a producer and he, you know, it's a dream of his is to do it like an eight part series on the history of Lake Champlain because it's so rich and amazing. And so I think you need to come together and collaborate a little bit on how to maybe to make that happen. I would love that. And see if Vermont Public Television would be willing to maybe help to produce it and there could be some fundraising opportunities too. But I'll hook you up with Rick on to talk about that because this history needs to be told. It did. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I mean we're all trying to do our little pieces but it's all got to come together. So I think, you know, I'll get you together with Rick and you two can manage that all together. I think you two could be a great team. So I want to just thank you for all that you've done for this community and all the service you've done helping people find the bright light in their lives and move through from the dark into the light. And so I want to ask you, any interest in running for mayor? Is that crossed your mind? Well, yes, it has crossed my mind over the years, but, you know, life takes you in different places and things like that have to queue up just right in my mind and for different reasons it hasn't. So I'm good with that. And the other thing I wanted to ask you is were you on the city council when I was coming through with my project? Let's see, I was on from 82 to 88. Yep, so you would have been there during the Alden years? Yes, that's absolutely right. I would have worked with you and we would have seen each other and we wouldn't have been, you know, made you landing. And so you and I have known each other for decades. And by the way, to our viewers, we were born in the same year. We both are 71. And I think I'm just a couple of months older than you. But you look a lot younger, so we'll leave it at that. You look fabulous, Gary. So I want to thank you so much for your time. Thank you. And we'll talk again. And I so look forward to taking your tour and to get it to you better. We'll, we'll, we'll commit about some stuff here. We've got some good energy going. That's great. Thank you, Melinda. Appreciate the opportunity. All right. Thank you, my friend. We'll talk soon. Okay. Yeah. Bye bye. Bye bye.