 In this episode, we'll be talking about how we've lost the true human nature of services and how we can get it back. We'll talk about what the organizational mechanisms are that allow service design to scale internally and we'll talk about why there isn't and never will be enough service design talent around. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Joel Bailey and this is the Service Design Show. Hi, I'm Mark and welcome to the Service Design Show. This show is all about helping service designers like you create organizations that put people at the heart of their business. My guest in this episode is one of the service design pioneers, evangelist, early day adopters. He started the service design drinks and things in London back in 2001, 2002. I've met this person back in 2008 at the service design conference in Amsterdam. If you look at his link in profile, you'll see that he's worked for the renowned service design companies and his latest service design company is EY7. His name is Joel Bailey. Joel has a pretty interesting perspective on why services are actually more important than design and why we need more people who truly and deeply understand what services are. So that's what we'll be talking about in the next 30 minutes. If you haven't subscribed already to this channel, be sure to do that because we bring new episodes that help to level up your service design skills at least once a week. So that's all for the introduction and now let's quickly jump into the chat with Joel. Welcome to the show Joel. Hey, how are you doing? Nice to see you. I'm doing awesome. Good to have you here. One of the pioneers of the service design field. We were going back, we were talking about the Epic service design conference that took place in Amsterdam, not in 2016, but in 2008. And that was also, like you mentioned, the first and only time that we actually met in person, right? That's right, that's right. I was reminiscing before we started. That is the first and last time we met, but it was a seminal moment for me. I had been involved in service design for a few years before that, but like in an isolated way, it had been a job title for me only for a couple of years and myself and a few handful of people in London had been congregating around a service design drinks we'd set up for myself and Nick Marsh and a couple of other people. But that event in Amsterdam that you'd organized, I managed to persuade someone to buy me a ticket for that and I went along and you had managed to congregate a few people. There was some IDO guys, Guy from McDonald's, it was really inspiring for me. Being isolated to come over to Amsterdam, hear a bunch of people talk, really inspiring. So I really salute you guys for making that happen. It was really great. It's good that a lot of people who were in that space in the Rotohood back then are sort of still active and it's a real community. It was back then and it still is today. So Joel, you've been, if I was checking your LinkedIn profile as I do before the talks and I was searching the first entry of service design in your sort of history and dates back to somewhere like 2001. So that's a long time. And I'm curious do you actually remember the first time you got in touch with service design? Yeah, actually it was a boss of mine who was pretty widely read at that point. And I was working in government at the time on an old website. I mean, this is the era pre-government digital services, a digital service called businesslink.gov.uk, one of the big old super sites. And my boss at the time, John John Johnston Hollow, he actually suggested to me the way you're going in your career, I think your next role is to be the service designer. And I was like, I don't know what that is. I looked, I typed it into Google and it came up with Wikipedia and it was like two lines. And I was like, I just read it and I was like, that's what I wanna do, right? And he was right. So I again, I salute him as well for showing me that path. And I did, I took that title and I said, this is what I'm gonna do. And I followed that path and I did what I could at BusinessLink with that title, even though it was very digital when it was going in a certain direction. But I've just followed that ever since and I've been lucky enough to have found people who have given me roles or I've forged a path and managed to find people who will give me budget. You know how it is, right? And then you find, you get your foot in a door on certain projects. And I'll be honest, there's a trade wind going through life at the moment, which is service design and it is human centred. And I've managed to follow that trade wind and it's taken me in the right direction. So opportunity knocks and you follow it, right? Yeah, you're riding the wave. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's it, right? And it's not failed me. And I think our industry is getting bigger and bigger as a result. And I'm very passionate about those two words, right? Services, and we'll talk about this more, I'm sure but I'm very passionate about service and I'm very passionate about services as human systems. I don't think as an industry, I think we're very obsessed with design and don't get me wrong, design is an important thing but I think services are very important and I think we have a lot of designers coming into service design who don't necessarily understand service design a lot but you have to understand services. You can't just come in as a designer and just be a service designer. You have to understand how services work. You're getting into the topics already. I see that you're passionate. I see that you're passionate. Let's do an interview just because I think you have a lot to share. Topic, topics, you gave me three topics and this one, we're going to start with this one. Reconnecting people to people. How can we? How can we? How can we reconnect people to people? What do you mean? How can we connect people to people? I have a view that this is an emerging view but it's come out of all the years I've been practicing which is that if you go back in history, people have always served people for thousands of years and I think we're born to serve each other. Within our family units, if you take it back to that primary unit, the moment we're born, we have to be served for a number of months in order to live and our parents serve us and then when they get to the end of life, we serve them. That's kind of traditional and the basic fact of life. And I think over the eons in our basic tribal units, service is a part of how we live and over the years, we have evolved that basic barter format of how we trade within tribes. They've become services, they've become very complicated and just over the last, let's say 100 years, they have become vastly more complicated and if you look at how services in the last just 30, 50 years have scaled in complexity, they have, particularly through technology and through, let's say interfaces and the use of the word interfaces, I think the provider and the customer of services have become disintermediated. And increasingly, if you go into these big service organizations, as you and I do and people listening and watching this show will do, the connection between people inside and outside of services has been lost. So when we go and talk to people at the front line of services, who get up every morning to serve people, like I've worked in public sector services where like adult social care people who get out of bed each day to go and help people who are struggling in their lives, that is their deep concern in life is to serve those people. They really struggle to be able to do that because the people who are running those services don't have daily contact with those people. They are disconnected with them because the only contact they have with those people is through a dashboard of data that tells them that. It's abstracted, yeah. It's very abstracted. And I think this is increasingly the case of the more technology, the more interfaces you put and this is the paradox of your modern service is that the more of those things that you put in, the more disintermediated your organization becomes from the human beings you're trying to serve. So paradoxically, I think we're being sold the idea that all this technology is better serving the customer and it is from a transactional point of view, but actually threatens your organization and makes them quite vulnerable because it removes your corporate instinct and your empathy for how you actually serve that customer. It takes away your relationship with that customer and so many organizations that go into, they don't have an instinct for who their customer is anymore. They don't really understand them. And I'm reading at the moment Sam Walton's autobiography, which is a great old one I bought off eBay and it feels like an old book, but all of his stuff is so relevant. So he used to make all his senior managers go into store once a week and hang around in store and then every week he would run a call centrally where they'd have to call in and tell them what he'd learned each week. That level of contact does not exist in most of our organizations. You know, I think I mentioned this on LinkedIn some time ago, like the role of technology should not be to have less contact with our customers, but to actually enable us to have more and deeper relationships with our customers, right? I think sort of, I don't know where it went wrong, but right, it feels like efficient, but it's only efficient if you, how are you going to use the time that technology gives you in a good way? I think where it might have gone wrong is slightly with the capitalist drive of headcount reduction, unfortunately, which I think there was a lot of push to get rid of headcount, which I think may have been a slightly miscalculation, because you need those people because people still want people. Like the logic of I'm going to get rid of my call center has never been true, right? Because what people now want is not those low value contact points. I don't want to call you with my small phone calls. I want to call you with my long phone calls. Really difficult challenges. I want to spend an hour on the phone with you to talk about my really complicated need. And I might cry down the phone with you about my really complicated long-term retirement money challenge that, because my husband's just died and I don't know what to do. That's a really valuable contact that I need to have with you, but that was never factored into the business case of the big change that you're going through. Everyone just thought I would just get rid of the call center and get rid of all those calls. So I think there is this view though at the top of organizations for these people who don't spend much time with customers that they've kind of become, going back to the original question, like how do we reconnect people with people? A lot of the work I'm trying to do in the service design, more agile service design sprint work we're doing is bring those leaders right back into contact with those customers. We bring them back into the research as much as possible. It's not about so that they can see the research insights. It's so they can spend time with customers so they can get that empathetic rush. You know, it's like, oh my God, we really need to serve these people better. It's like, like, do you get that back to the floor program in Hollywood? Yeah, it's a TV show. Yeah, yeah. It's the same story, right? You get the CEO going out to meet the customer. So, you know, I think we in the service design community would all applaud more interactions with actual customers, but the reality for a lot of service design is that it's already challenging to actually get the project team out of the door and meet people. What is your strategy for getting people outside of the project team to actually go on this journey with you? I mean, it does help to have clients who want to do it, right? And luckily, we do have clients who want to do that. I think I push clients to do it, right? And I sell them on the how. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I convince them, right? Because I tell them how good it is, right? There's no science to it. I think there's an art to it, right? Which is to convey what I believe to be the right thing for them and to show them the value of it. Because of what I'm telling you, right? What I pledge to them is that I can get a research team to go out and do this work for you. And they will come back to you with a report, but you will get 30% of the value by doing that. If you bring your team and even yourself along, you will get 100% of the value of what you want, right? You want 30% of your money's worth? It's like, that's the story I can tell them. And usually, they want 100% of the value, if not more. So that's the sort of discussion that we have with them when I'm putting together proposal. And then they can choose what value they want for their money. And I think what I also really applaud and hold dearly is that we as services designers should take a stand. Like, this is the way we need to do it. This is the way it should be done. If you don't want to listen, you'll probably don't need a service designer. Like, take a stance. Yeah. Right? Yeah, I think it's true. I think it's true because we, I don't know about you. I mean, there's a lot of demand for our time and we have to qualify at some point. And we can spend a lot of our time doing work that doesn't, as you say, ship. You know, it doesn't deliver value. It doesn't cut through. And I think at the end of the day, we all as service designers want to see our value in the market. And we've all over, you know, you've been in this game as long as I have, right? We've seen plenty of our work not arrive in the market. We've not seen it deliver. We've not seen it get through all the trade-offs and compromises that come downstream after our work is finished. And so we have to find clients that will actually commit to delivering it. And if they're not going to bother going to the research, that's not a great indicator to me that they're going to bother delivering it and get through all types of delivery. So it's really important to me to find clients who are up to the actual long haul of this. And if they're not going to find a day in their week to go along to customer research, that's not a great indicator. Red flags. Let's move on. Topic question number two, well, topic. And it's a topic of scaling, which has been on the show in the past. So I'm curious to hear your perspective on this one. I'm going to go with, oh, hold on. Here it comes. When will we scale? Oh, there it is. There it is. When? Now, what are we going to scale? That's the word I had right behind this scaling one. This was the topic of, instead of getting buy-in for service design, actually understanding how to implement and bet, scale service design. This one's a big shift, right? So yeah, if we go back to when we first met, right, it was all about getting buy-in, right? No one believed me, right? It was all, I would take anything to get into any room and do any piece of work. And I would literally, I take any brief and I do any compromised piece of work just to get a brief. But now we've come on a long way in the last, gosh, many, many years now. And I think we can afford to be a bit more choosy. And so I think that the markets moved on, we're very accepted. There's lots of business value in doing service design. And a lot of people understand that. A lot of clients who are willing to really follow through on the work. So the new question that we're getting asked is how do I build my own capability in-house, not just rely on you to do projects, but do full-scale capability build? And I'm lucky enough to have some clients who are going, who are very mature in this now, to the point where they don't really need us so much. And I work for EY Seren, part of EY, you know. So we have lots of clients of different levels of maturity, some so mature that they have their own capability that they're building at quite a rate of knots. And so scaling corporate capability, and I mean corporate in the public and private sector, is the new challenge, I would say. And that's the thing. When I say when will we scale, I think that is starting to happen. And I think it's probably the industry's main challenge to probably lead us on to our third question. But for me, it's where all the main questions now lie for us as an industry, because, sorry, yeah, jump in. Yeah, I'm going to jump in because when we were talking about this topic, what I found really interesting is how you framed scaling or how you framed the transition, like going from departments, organized in a way that is organized for production, to organizing around, you called it like around the service or the product, the service, the product, the customer, and then organizing around that. Can you share a little bit about that transition and how scaling fits into... Yeah, so the big discipline that we all need to get our heads around to make this bit work, there's a few actually, but one of them is certainly systems thinking because you come up against the system logic of the big organizations that we work in, which is the classical management theory of these organizations, which most of them is based on this factory model of how organizations run, which is 80 years of classical management theory, which is the consumer is a product to be managed through, and it's basically something you don't really want to deal with, which is why call centers don't really want to deal with a customer. As soon as you start realizing how an organization really thinks about the customer, not because it wants to, because that's how it's learned to deal with a customer, then as a designer, if you start to really recognize the internal logic of an organization because that's the way management theory is taught it to think about it, your life gets so much easier because you can really empathize with how the organization thinks, and then you can start to work with that behavior and slowly adapt it because these organizations don't think the way you want to, they're verticalized, right? And all the power and all the money runs vertically, and the CEO and everybody else at the top is desperately trying to change it, but until you start learning that the system is the product of how it's always been incentivized to work, you won't change it, right? So what we all need as designers need to start becoming much better at is systematic org redesign, and that's where we're now starting to get better at, so we have a business design team who are starting to really get more involved in our work, which is how do we start looking at governance models? How do we start all redesign? Do you start really getting to the depths of how do you re-intensify the organization? Right. Organizing horizontally, so you start having budgetary cycles that are much shorter so they can work according to agile principles so you can start getting away from committee decision-making, not my area of expertise, but we cannot succeed unless these things change because otherwise all our design sprints will fail, all our design ideas for horizontal journeys will fail. This is the new era that we're in. So what I find really interesting, and that is for me also basically uncharted territory, like what are the instruments that govern or the way, what are the design materials of an organization? Like governance, like incentives, you probably can name a few more, but and how do we use those to actually redesign how the organization functions? Yeah. Right? Well, the great news here as our service designers, we don't have to be experts in this thing. Exactly. So the great thing about working NEY is I'm surrounded by people who are experts in org redesign in governance and all those things which are quite traditional and very specific and quite technical, but they've all just been doing them in a way that is not changed for a long time. So now I'm turning up and saying, can we kind of turn them 20 degrees to the left and make them quite different? And they're saying, oh, we've not changed them in many years, but they're quite excited because they're like, oh yeah, let's just change those, right? Let's do that. They know which knobs they can actually turn. Yeah. Which levers. But it's great turning up to a guy who's never had to change them and saying, can we change them? He's like, yeah, I'd love to. So that's good, right? So I don't need to be an expert in those things. There are plenty of those. And every organization has those people, right? Well, is that the case? Because you're in the position with EY Sermon, smart people around you. What if you're like in a small team or maybe you're in an internal team? Like how do you actually start to start this position? Yeah. Yeah, that is true. I perhaps was talking for a point of privilege there. I mean, there is some good stuff written online about this. It's a bit scarce, but in turn, there are people starting to write about how you have to face into this headwind, a level up, which is how do you deal with governance? How do you deal with incentive models? The systems thinking aspect of this, it's quite new and no one's got the right answer. And I'll be honest, you know, even within the world we're working in, there are no single right answers. There are just themes, the things that I'm describing. Every organization is trial and error across the board, every client. And even the clients that are quite mature, it's more error than success, I would say. Everybody is sort of fumbling around and trying to find the right way to do this. I've also found it interesting that you stated, like startups, they don't have the heritage so they can implement models that have this behavior by default. Yeah, well, they're sort of native. Well, they're a blank canvas, right? So they don't have a legacy of governance and committees. So like the legacy committee thing is bigger than legacy IT, I think. For the last 20 years, I'll be honest, I walked around going, oh, legacy IT will kill all my service design projects. And then I had a bit of a moment, probably goes back about four years where I was on a commuter train surrounded by all the, I was working really hard and I was surrounded by all these guys. I live in the commuter belt here at Surrey where all these bankers live. I was looking around and I was working really hard in the late train and they were all sitting there like watching Netflix. And I was like, man, these are all the people that I'm probably up against. They're all in these lovely pensions waiting for retirement. I thought, it's these legacy people that will sit on all these committees that I think is the challenge. And actually it is like the legacy people who are kind of sat on all these committees whose job it is to review papers and to challenge change who are defending a status quo that I think is probably the bigger challenge in these organizations. You've got a lot of agility down at this lower tier close to the cold face of change. But then there's a huge rump of management who are quite defensive about change. And I think a lot of these organizations, and that's regulated from a regular, I work in financial services quite a lot and that's quite a regulated rump. And what I mean by the rump is it's a lot of fat in there. And I don't want to start saying that you have to cut that all out because the regulator has said you have to have people in there whose job it is to make sure the bank is doing the right thing. And that's the same in any regulated organization. So, but that puts a real drag on change for lots of safe reasons and banks are very risk averse as a telecommunications companies but your challenger banks don't have that, right? They're built in the form of, they're mostly engineers and a few designers. That's what they are. But so they don't have that drag on them but they also don't have lots of other things that these big banks do have. They don't have the huge amount of trust in their brand. They don't have a branch network that has a lot of relational value in them. So, you know. If you could to sort of round off this topic, if you could, what is, how should I formulate this question? Like what have you seen that works exceptionally well? Can you, have you found a pattern? Question. In terms of relation to scale. Yeah, and to actually starting the shift. Yeah. Well, certainly what I've seen work well is organizing around some form of journey-based model. And that's no, that's going to be no surprise to people watching. Well, it's good that you sort of confirm that that works. Yeah. You have to kind of organize horizontally, right? And you have to then give some form of autonomy to the team who's doing that. They have to be able to act within that team. You have to be able to put people in that team to work for a genuine period of time. And you have to empower them to work according to some sort of scrum dynamic so that they can kind of get stuff done. I think you, what else do you need to do? You need to have stakeholders, quite senior come to that group and be sent a way to unblock things, which is quite different. So they're not coming along to be told how great things are. They're being sent away with tasks. Right. That doesn't happen in these big organizations very often, but that's very empowering for the team to have a senior stakeholder sent away to go and fix things. I think you need leadership around design. You need leadership. What I mean by that is design needs to have some form of empowerment in the organization beyond where it currently sits. Most of the money sits within the business and there are two kingdoms within most organizations. Well, actually there's one kingdom. The business owns all the money. Design is always trying to get the money out of the business. Ideally, there should be some brokerage of power between design and business. At the moment as designers, we're constantly trying to fight for some of the money. I think I'd like to see our next couple of years where design is having a bit of budget. Yeah. I think it was Mauro Pochini in the CEO, Chief Design Officer of PepsiCo who was on the show and he said, do we actually want the responsibility of being responsible for profit and loss? Because that would change the game if we would say, okay, we'll make sure that the money flows in. We are the business. Well, I see business owners doing that. They're not doing that great a job, I'd say. Not always. Like, why do we think it would be any worse or any better necessary to have designers doing it? I just think we lack credibility necessarily. Maybe we lack the balls to actually do it. Maybe. If I look at Dan Mikowski at Lloyds Banking Group, you should get on the show if you haven't already. He's a good guy. He doesn't necessarily lack the balls, I don't think. Maybe they lack. Maybe they don't want to give it to him, I don't know. But like, I don't know. I think that sort of shift needs to happen. My personal view is we'll come, we'll be 10 years down the road from here, maybe five, depending on the maturity of the organization and there should be less of a gap between business and design, right? Design is essentially problem solving. It's just a more divergent, bolder, braver way of doing it. Business has not shown that it's had a great track record in these big incumbent service organizations of solving problems in the last 10 years. It's proved itself to be pretty poor at it, I'd say. We're moving on into topic number three, the final one. And it relates to the previous one because this one is called talent growth. And if we want to scale, I guess we need talent. And I have so many questions about this one. Okay, so I think this one for me is how far are we? Where are we? Yes, there is. Talent growth, how far? So I'm in this gloomy room. Sorry, I didn't really set up the lighting for this. It was a trade-off between lighting and Wi-Fi signal. Oh, I'll always take Wi-Fi signal. Okay, yeah, me too. So yeah, how far are we on our road to talent growth, right? So I think this is one of my probably biggest concerns but also actually my biggest hopes. So there we go, a paradox for our third question. So it's my biggest concern if I talk about service design. It's my biggest hope when I talk about designing services, right? So I put this exactly in that language very, very purposefully. So if I talk about myself as a service designer, I find it's very niche language and I get very worried about the talent market. So I actually, in the last, probably a year and a half, and I wrote quite a long blog post about this for those who have bothered to read such things. We'll link to it down below, of course. But I'm very conscious. Okay, cool. I very consciously now talk about designing services and designing and building services because we've obviously got to build these things, not just design them. But designing services for me requires an army of people with an army of skills. And some of those people are service designers. And we have to talk about designing and building services if we are gonna have any chance of scaling the talent problem that we have because we do have a talent problem. Because I'll be honest with you, we've been hanging around this industry for a long, long time and the talent hasn't grown exponentially. We've got a lot more people turning up and there are lots of people who are very talented and some people who are quite talented, people who are learning as they go, but there aren't enough people to do all the work that's coming through the door. So for me, what we have got though is a lot of product designers. We've got a lot of visual designers. And just in our business alone, we've got business designers, product designers, visual designers. I've got research practice that I'm responsible for, design research practice. We've got storytellers. And equally, if I look at more broadly across CY, I've got like rec tech experts. I've got people who are experts in sectors like you wouldn't believe. All of them very talented, very smart people. All of them employed by service organizations day in, day out. Why would I not want them working on the design of a service? I do want them working on that. And equally, the client brings all of their experts along. And I've never yet worked on a project or an engagement with a client where they haven't brought along a bunch of super resourceful people. And in the immersion week where I essentially bring them into the project and we do an immersion week for us, by the way, it's a kind of educational deep dive. We throw them in the room. We say, this is what service design is. This is what systems thinking is. This is what behavioral economics is. And we kind of explode them a little bit. And then by the end of that week, they're like, I don't want to go and do anything else to run, right? I love it. And it's all about tapping into their resourcefulness. So for me, if we're gonna stay as an industry narrow on service design, we will fail. But if we go broad and tap into the resourcefulness of people turning their minds and skills to designing services, then we will succeed. So you mentioned a lot of different skills, a lot of different roles. How, where and how do we find those people and who are these people? They're everywhere. Yeah, exactly. So why is talent growth an issue? Well, I don't necessarily think it is. I think it's called, I think it's talent gathering, right? I think it's talent gathering and it's talent on boarding. I don't really like that word. Bringing the right talent to bear under the right conditions and motivating them to work in the right, yeah, under the right conditions in the right scenario. So I have this, the methodology, I don't really even like calling it, the mindset and methodology that we work with in EY Seren specifically that I adopt with the teams that I work with, is this kind of agile approach to service design that it involves those different mixed methodologies that I described earlier. It involves a very broad church of people who will put a mixed team set in the room with the client and depending on who they can bring in and who we can bring in, it might have a mixture of the client's team there and our team. It'll have people who come from a subject matter expert background that have people from EY who can come in as well. So we'll have quite a mixed playing field, mixed group of team members on the playing field and no one really knows who's from which part of the team. But the key thing is to work out what individual resources those individuals bring and what we will then seek to do is make the most out of the resources those people bring. So it does sound like it's almost quite wooly but this is what our clients need because I'll be honest with you, most of the skills that our clients employees bring to the table historically, like I've got people turning up who used to be project managers who are suddenly being told that they're now product managers, right? This is quite a common art thing, right? And the difference between a project manager yesterday and a product manager today, like you can't just switch someone from one to the other overnight. They're fundamentally different mindset. And yet that's the sort of challenge we've been given. So our role is to really coach people through this and to take them, I hate this on a journey sort of language, but we do have to take them on a bit of a journey and that is what we bring to the work we do with them. It's quite facilitative and we are helping them to go through that. But we cannot rely. I mean, obviously we have to bring some of our very skilled individual service designers, product designers, visual designers to that room, researchers to that room. So don't get me wrong. We are hiring those guys and we are continually hiring those guys into our company, but we cannot just rely on it. We are looking for resourceful individuals from our client teams and more broadly from across EY to participate in that work because we can't scale in any other way. So I hire into those squads, if you like, looking for people who have soft skills and future capability as much as I do, looking for the hard skills of service design. That's a long one. Well, I think you will actually enjoy the previous episode with Patrick Bach, who's... You can put a link and I need to listen to it. You need to and especially the third topic and people who are the fans of the show who've listened to the previous episodes will know what I'm talking about. Joel, we spend a lot of time in this episode and I do want to give you the opportunity to ask us a question. The listeners, the viewers, is there anything on your mind that we could sort of chew upon? I think I'd like to ask the listeners, viewers, where they think an organization like EY Seren should be focusing its energy on where to go next, right? Because we have our own ideas about what the future has in store and you can obviously hear I'm constantly thinking about this, constantly thinking about what the future holds. But I've been reading some really interesting books recently about where the future of the practice goes, like the Thinking in Services book you've had... Have you had magic on recently? Yeah, he's from my town, actually. Oh, cool, excellent. Not on the show yet. That looks just great, right? So, a question to the group is, as an organization who is part of a big organization who is looking to its own proposition about what it wants to do in the world, what would a service designer out there in the world be looking from an organization like us? That's a question I'm really curious to ask. We can ask our internal people, but I'd like to know from the outside what do people expect from an organization like us? What do they like to see from us? There's a question. I think a lot of people will be interested in the answers to this one, so let's see what happens. Joel, man, we could talk for another half an hour at least, at least, but we're not going to do that because we want to respect the time of our audience. If there's more to it, then be sure to comment and continue your conversation down there. Thanks for your time. Thanks for sharing what's on your mind. It was a pleasure. Yeah, great pleasure. Thanks for having me on. So, what is your take on Joel's question? What role should service design agencies play? Leave your comments down below. And I challenge you, if you know somebody who might enjoy this episode as well, grab the link and share it with them and help to grow the service design show community. Thanks so much for watching and I look forward to seeing you in the next video.