 In this episode, you'll learn how you can design services that your customers just can't stop using because they help them to express who they are and what they stand for. Some really powerful stuff. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Claire Dennington. This is the service design show episode 177. Hi, my name is Mark von Dein and welcome back to the service design show. On this show, we explore what's beneath the surface of service design. What are those hidden and invisible things that make a difference between success and failure all to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people, business and our planet? Our guest in this episode is Claire Dennington. Claire has obtained a PhD from the Oslo School of Architecture and Design in 2021. On a PhD thesis titled Re-Fashioning Service Design Designing for Popular Culture Service Experiences. Now, the reason I'm excited to have Claire on the show with us today is this. There are many famous products that have influenced our culture in a very significant way. Here are a few examples that come to mind. Obviously the iPhone, Tesla, the Nike Air Jordans and what about the Volkswagen Beetle, the Game Boy and the Havana Flip Flops. All of these products have become to become legendary category defining icons and these products don't have customers. Oh no, they have fans and ambassadors. What makes these products special is that somehow they have been able to create and deliver meaning for their customers beyond the functional aspects of the product. These products help people to express their identity and values in one way or the other. Which of these examples speaks to you says something about who you are and what you stand for. But somehow we rarely discuss how to leverage pop culture in the service design process and that feels like a missed opportunity when you look at the power it has to create meaning and value for our customers. Well, that's where Claire comes in. Through her PhD Claire has looked into how we can use trends in pop culture to design services. Now, maybe I'm biased but I find this an extremely inspiring topic. It opens up a whole new world of opportunities. So if you stick around till the end of this episode you'll know what we actually mean by pop culture and what its relationship is to trends. Why the recent service oriented brands like Netflix, Uber and Airbnb are becoming our new pop culture icons and of course how you can use this powerful design material to deliver meaningful services. Whether you're working with a local fitness gym or a large financial institution. I hope this got you excited because now it's time to sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Claire Dennington. Welcome to the show, Claire. Thank you, Mark. Nice to have you on. We're going to discuss a topic that hasn't been discussed in the previous 176 episodes. So I'm really excited about this but before we jump in I would love to know a bit more about you and your context, what you do. So could you give us like a 30 second pitch? Who is Claire? Okay. Well, I'm a service designer and a PhD and I'm based in Oslo. I recently joined Sheepstead Nordic Marketplaces where I'm working as a UX manager and I guess before that I've been working a lot with design driven innovation and circular service design within the fashion and lifestyle industry. Cool. Now, five questions. I have a lightning round that I haven't prepared you for just the first thing that comes to your mind to get to know you as a person next to the professional. Are you ready? Yes. All right, Claire. What's always in your fridge? Oh, always in my fridge. Oat milk. Oat milk, all right. Staying in the food category. What is the best meal you've ever had? Good question. I've had so many good meals but I think definitely eating like dim sum in Chinatown in London would be one of the best meals. All right. Which book are you reading right now if any? Yes. I'm reading... I've just recently finished actually a Norwegian novel by a Norwegian author called I Am the Wolf, which has been very interesting discussing growing up in Norway as a second generation immigrant and the family, sort of how the family has experienced. Next question is if you could work from anywhere in the world which place would you pick? I would probably pick somewhere that has a beach and a nice ocean to swim in. No specific place, but yes, somewhere that you could like hang around on the beach as well. Hanging around on the beach. Sounds like a great plan. And the fifth and final question is also a tradition here on the show. Do you remember the first time you got in touch with services design? Yes, I did actually because I was studying industrial design at Oslo School of Architecture and Design so it probably was 2005 or something and we had a course with Simon Klattworthy who sort of introduced I would say a lot of services design to the Norwegian community and I just thought it was so interesting and like a great introduction to services design at that time. It's interesting that most people do remember the first moment they learned about services design. I do as well so cool. Thank you for this introduction into who Claire is and where she would like to spend her days. Claire, we're going to talk about you phrased it as trends as design material or at least that's one of the ways you phrased it and I liked it a lot because I think I got referenced to you by one of the previous guests who had Matt Hughes, we also know and the topic in that episode was rituals as a design material so I thought that looks pretty interesting. Now, this is completely new to me so you have done a PhD related to this topic to trends, to pop culture maybe can you give us some context like how did this all start for you? It started with a personal interest I've always been interested I guess in pop culture expressions and how this influences us I've been both working and interested in the sort of lifestyle sector and lifestyle industry where pop culture is a huge part of it and then I've been in I guess like coming from working in different sectors like the fashion industry for example where you would use trends as a material to kind of design your products and I saw that maybe that was something that had potential also in service design Now, I'm an old man I'm starting to get really old pop culture I have some assumptions and ideas about what that might be but how do you define pop culture what is it to you? I would say it's sort of the way of how we kind of do things in a contemporary view it's sort of this entanglement of meaning and materiality and social practices of our everyday lives and of course like you could say pop culture could be quite tied to entertainment or sort of you know a lot of people think about American pop culture and I think it doesn't necessarily have to be that but it's more about how we how we sort of do things how what we value what are our norms of current times When you close your eyes and think about pop culture what is that you see what are some images that come to your mind I would say definitely today brands lots of established I would say pop culture lifestyle brands would come to mind I would see sort of well good question more sort of you could say aesthetic images sort of like something conveying some kind of feeling like what is part of pop culture for you right now and a stereotypical example well one thing is probably like definitely how we consume media these days we are sort of getting used to short and short information chunks or a mix of sort of images and short texts which has become quite a part of how at least the younger generation is consuming media or the way we watch series and talk about series that's something we all discuss around the lunch table what's happening that's part of pop culture but of course you have other expressions like it could be music or it could be movies so I'm starting to get an image and the thing I'm still curious about is culture versus pop culture just to help me understand like is there a difference and if so what is the difference that's a huge question I think basically maybe pop culture is more localized in some ways so you can have very small units where that shared practices or shared values create this sort of culture which you would start moving into subcultures but there's all these different layers of pop culture so maybe pop culture would be defined as something that most people can relate to or something that is in people's minds at the moment that makes sense before we dig into how this applies to services how are we seeing pop culture being used in other industries so maybe like you mentioned fashion but I can imagine also products how are we seeing it there I think definitely as you said in product design it's really a way of how designers I would say are interpreting the kind of meaning I would say behind these trends or within pop culture and kind of translating this into the products meaning that as users we would choose products because they have some kind of significant meaning for us and I think a lot about practically if you look to fashion or product design a way of sort of capturing this is to identify different pop culture expressions and sort of use this as a material then you would use it as inspiration or you would use it to trigger some kind of concept or something that resonates I would say with uses and their current sort of values and aspirations when you think about maybe icons from other industries like around products and fashion and I don't know other examples what are some of the first examples that come to mind when people document or write or create videos about pop culture products like what are the examples that they always pick out if we stay in I would say product and lifestyle definitely Apple products would be pulled forward as very sort of significantly different perhaps then computers and sort of that kind of technology sector was looking before Apple came and introduced a completely new way of designing products and thinking the fashion industry you have brands like Adidas that have had a huge impact with certain shoe models like it's three stripes or something that has been taken up into popular culture we have bands like singing about it referencing it so this sort of continuous interplay you could say between popular culture and products so yeah I think those can be two examples okay now I was thinking about this topic and trends as a design material or culture as a design material and I was thinking like aren't we always maybe subconsciously or intentionally designing with culture in mind like our solutions of course need to align with the needs of our users but if they don't align with the culture they won't work either so like are we doing this already and if so if we aren't like what's missing where did you see the opportunity I think that's a very good question because it comes down to perhaps what you're saying if it's intentionally or unintentionally like some designers with intuitively kind of design as you said with popular culture as a part of their repertoire but I think also some parts of service design is of course if you're designing for for example redesigning and making services better and using a lot of of course really importantly user insights to improve service experiences but I think with what popular culture sort of did being aware of how you can use this also to design for future needs right so when we talk about trends or we talk about being able to identify patterns perhaps you could also try to design new service offerings that are answering to future needs so it might not be that these are things that users know at the moment they need but it's more about anticipating what might become valuable or what might be important for users in the near future and that sort of tied into that notion of innovation like trends as an innovation material so we can I get that because when you look at trends you're almost forecasting or sort of projecting a direction where groups are going desires are going habits needs so yeah designing for future makes make sense I was another question I had I had a lot of questions about this topic so how could we recognize service or a product that isn't designed with pop culture in mind so I think let me explain this question a bit more often it's really hard to pinpoint specific aspects of something that is designed a product or a service like okay that one is designed with the user needs in mind because more often it's way easier to say okay this service hasn't been designed with the user in mind because I don't know waiting time the ergonomics of the service or product don't work so the question again is how do we recognize services or products that haven't been designed with pop culture in mind with trends in mind I would say perhaps for products if we start there you would have a lot of products that are based on sort of functional needs so it solves a functional something you need to do right so you would have I'll use an example from earlier which is kitchen products right so you would have kitchen products and it would do the job and then you kind of had this break in product design where the introduction of what is termed meaning innovation so you're not perhaps innovating on the function that the product has but it's more of like the meaning this product has for you and I don't know if you remember like the Italian kitchen web brand LSE they did this whole range of fun kitchen products with bright colors and they had like humorous aspects to them and of course like Philip Stark's orange presser which is like more like a sculpture and people would buy it to kind of display it you know in your living room and still has a function but it's also something that you kind of it's you know you could say desirable but something that you want also because it resonates with you and your sort of emotional needs I would say so I've tried to transfer that also national service design and we have lots of services that might be very functional they work and you would be happy when you use them because you get the job done the offering core offering is to help you solve the function problem but then you can also sort of especially in some industry sectors and you know add a layer of this sort of popular culture so that touch point so that tone of voice so now all these service details are aligned to the popular cultural sort of understanding and I'm thinking like what's the value why should you do this and I have an answer but I'm also curious to your perspective yeah so from a business standpoint if you are able to sort of distinguishing yourself based on function becomes really hard and you don't want to compete on price so you need other layers to distinguish your offerings whether that's a product, whether that's a service and using trends or using pop culture is you're tying into identity and people buy products or services from you because they are able to express their identity through your offering next to obviously doing the functional thing that it needs to do but they are buying into much more how does this make me feel how does this express who I am and that's of course opens a huge amount of ways for businesses to distinguish themselves I don't know how does that sound absolutely I think you are very spot on I think that's one really interesting part of this is especially again sort of if you talk about lifestyle fashion it's so interconnected with what you said like identity, creation and this notion of cultural capital so as users we might choose different products because they signify something about us but that could also be transferred to services sign so why would we choose one service over the other as you said and it's more about yes those emotional aspects I think sort of for me at least why this has been really important than something I've looked into is because I think that in looking into for example promoting more sustainable and circular consumption practices so that could be like instead of just buying products we could reuse them we could repair them we could sort of extend the life cycle of products we need to offer sort of service experiences that inspire us that motivate us to choose this instead of choosing commercial you know new products so I think it has a lot of value in exploring this and also trying to nudge people towards changing practices especially when it comes to consumption or how we use you know could be how we travel could be in terms of micro mobility so all this like car sharing and these things if we want people to start changing practices then we have to you know offer service experiences that feel valuable to us yeah I'm more in line with who we are who we want to be and the pull factor of a service that you recognize yourself in is going to be much more than a service that is sort of neutral but cheaper now maybe a thing that could worry people here is trends are often associated also with things like fashion where like it's the opposite of being sustainable how do you see this so if we're designing with trends is like how which one sustainability overboard because next year there will be a different trend if it was in products of course like you are really contributing to that I think that in services it's a bit opposite it would allow us to to sort of design for new services you know new ways of doing things so especially in sort of product design I think I've been working with several product companies like established brands and they still a lot of them still struggling with having this product mindset whereas like trying to enable this movement to sort of more experience-centric mindset where they actually can see the value a product has when you can say use it again or it comes back into the loop and it actually would result in uses for example if we're talking about economics paying for it twice like if you have a product and you can bring it back into the loop and you can repair it or you can use the materials to make it into something else understanding sort of the products lifecycle beyond the point of purchase because there's like this after phase what happens with the product after and if brands or businesses are able to yes make services that can help help products being used again for example it could rather contribute I think like we'll explore this a bit deeper in a second when we say trends are a design material can be seen as a design material just like rituals for example have you thought about the material properties of trends so if we have I don't know wood it can be strong it can be light it can be can have different colors those are the design material properties have you identified material properties of trends and so what are they I haven't actually like specifically done that so that's really interesting I think just thinking of it now would be that trends are actually dynamic so that's quite unique I mean it's something that would shift and change like you said this now and if we're thinking about services it could be that the main service offering so you would say like the product is the same but the material or the trends or this sort of the way of how we deliver them or how they look and feel for example that could change so one thing is that it's dynamic and I think also it's if we could talk more about it's the emotional aspect I suppose it's more like an emotional material and meaningful and it's definitely you know intangible versus the more tangible material qualities that you would have in product design so it's not as easily definable but yeah I think that would perhaps be some of the qualities very interesting exercise to think about because if you understand the material properties of the design material then you know what the things are that you can shape and influence and work on thinking about shaping and influencing I think one of the saying is often that products or products influence culture and culture influences products so where does it start how do you see this we put we put the iPod into the world and then it shapes culture right it's an iconic thing yep or was the iPod influenced by existing culture and how do you see this into play I think it's hard to perhaps define where it starts because it's such a cyclical dynamic entanglement and it continuously kind of bounces off each other and influences in both directions so necessarily see that it starts somewhere but I think perhaps like one start would be the ability to kind of identify and articulate sort of what is happening what are the patterns we are seeing and what will this mean how can we use that to for example innovate or design new services so I think it's hard to say because you could see that often it would be for example some people early adopters or innovators would start doing something differently and then that would spread a bit and then you would see perhaps brands or anybody picking up on this and trying to make it more popular so it's sort of like this trickle effect as well like we were talking about this now from subcultures to popular culture so it's this sort of dynamic into play all the time I think and when you mention subculture I was thinking like so what examples could I come up with that would maybe be a good example here and Airbnb would probably be an example of pop culture how we travel how we explore the world but it started in a subculture it started with couch surfing where people like that was you travel and you sort of hack the system by not going to a hotel but actually getting a place to sleep on a couch somewhere and then Airbnb very well capitalized on that and just made it bigger so would you also consider that to be an example of a service that now is part of pop culture absolutely I think that's a really good example and we could go you know further back to the practice of just like visiting friends that's the feeling that Airbnb wanted to create you became a local and they started with doing all these small touch points which enhance that sort of meaningful experience at least what I heard so they would like make sure the host stocked up the fridge with the local delicacies and they would give you all the right tips to what you could do I don't know if this is true but I read some of that because I think when it started in San Francisco some of the first hosts there were they added like spare change like coins so that the people could give this to homeless people in San Francisco to really get the experience I don't know if that's good or bad but it was just like every sort of small detail was thought through to enhance and make this sort of meaningful experience so I think that's a really good example another example like really quickly we get into the well-known brands and Netflix probably how we move around, how we get our food Netflix around consumption, media consumption TikTok around consumption so those are maybe the more I'm thinking that these are the newer types of services offerings all of these we weren't here probably like 10 years ago 15 years ago but are we seeing also examples of more traditional services I don't know in banking or yes absolutely I think there are a lot more banking options now I think there's done a lot and of course like the user experience that makes it easier for people to understand banking I know I think it's a British banking service that was designed specifically for entrepreneurs like creative entrepreneurs to make it really understandable like you know how taxes and everything works and it was like really interactive and it was really visually appealing so I think there's things happening also in the traditional service sectors not everywhere but at least some places when things move from subcultures to pop culture is there a next stage do things become mainstream and then sort of die out of being in the pop culture stage how does that work I think in products definitely if the provider isn't good at keeping up to date and sort of changing in line with the change we see and I think if we go back to Airbnb like it's changed dramatically since it first started to now where they're offering like experiences they have these packages during COVID they went over to delivering online experiences right you can do virtual cooking classes so it's about it's still the same offering so you're offering like a local hosting experience but they continuously manage to pull this into sort of new directions seeing what's happening which new trends and sort of implementing this so I think you again like if you see trends in some sort of dynamic material always be trying moving forward although your core offering your core values might be the same yeah and maybe we come back to the question where is this something that you want to be associated with and something that you want to be associated with today will probably evolve next year in five years in ten years I'm just thinking about the cars we drive that has changed like maybe in the past you wanted a big SUV I don't know because that signals something to the outside world these days the same people might want to be associated with a Tesla for the fact that they are probably that they are able to drive really fast but they tell everybody that it's about the environment but it's dynamic and what is the thing that you want to be associated with and yeah absolutely I think that will shift you know it will be different and I think Tesla is a really good example as well if we go back to this innovating through meaning and how we how Tesla managed to shift the meaning of electric cars from something that was sort of not that cool but very sort of sustainable and then they just made this completely new experience where Tesla was associated with as you said speed status so many at least Norway are super popular and a lot of people didn't buy them because they were sustainable right it's like the identity creating part again but of course that will change over time I think it's interesting if we managed to use that in services so that you can associate with for example more sustainable consumption practices like by using this service you know I choose to be use secondhand clothing I choose to use micro mobility or green mobility yeah and then perhaps their ways of sort of showing that or expressing that or just like Tesla did it's almost a trojan horse like you're doing things that are better for our environment but you're buying them for other reasons because I don't know with food I can imagine that would just be a preference of taste it tastes better and it's better for the environment like that's coming back to this question is let's say somebody got super inspired by our conversation so far and they are think they're a service design professional working inside a large organization never have thought about using trends as a design material what would be your tip what would be your tip to start like how do you embed this in your day to day design practice well I think first of all sort of familiarize with the trends some organization would have trend units so you could go to them and sort of get five big trends to watch out for and then you start doing research I think is important meaning of course desktop research there's a lot of trend resources but also getting out and looking around and understanding what's happening you can often start to see these patterns so you can see what's popular for example Netflix what is this series actually about and then you can draw start seeing all people are wearing this what does that actually mean and then it becomes all these sort of small points that you could practice connecting in some way and I think it's a lot about using your intuition as well to sort of be able to identify so I think that sort of one start of it is identifying it and you can use sort of visual material you can mood boarding for example which use a lot of product design it can be used into service like to convey the experience that you're trying to design for in a way and articulating it I think like taking it down to actually being able to say what does this trend mean like is it about safety is it about convenience and what does that kind of look and feel like I think that's one thing and then and then start sort of using this into the service journey so like into the touch points what would be a touch point that kind of resonates with popular culture now what is the tone of voice that is sort of dominating this industry sector or what would I like to how would I like this service to be conceived and so I think sort of trying to find also these design tools that are visual that are helping you to break down this meaning behind and I also work with developing sort of like a tool called the experience centric service journey so like one thing is mapping out a service journey all the points but then also adding a layer of sort of visual mapping so it's like mixed between a mood board and a service journey so it also helps create sort of this common understanding when you discuss with other team or people or people in the organization like what this experience is going to be like from your experience have you seen that it's better to focus on a single trend like sustainability or should we like just take five trends and try to infuse our service with all these five trends that's a good question I think for existing brands that kind of have a strong brand presence and brand values it's about being able to choose the trends that fit with sort of like a brand match you could say but I think also it's you could have some really large scale trends that are obvious and then you can have like smaller trends that are interesting and I think as a service designer you have to be the one that sort of chooses and mixes a bit between this to create your own interpretation of it if you could say so and I think again like you said like these large scale trends like sustainability becomes yeah like a mainstream it becomes something that's obvious like every new service now should be in some way sustainable you know some kind of sustainability but then you might look at the smaller trends and so how can we sort of infuse these to make it even like it's a sustainable service but that actually resonates with me you know or different users that identity part the part about resonating with who I am is I think super important because again thinking for instance about clothes there are a million I don't know sweaters or t-shirts or that I can buy and why did I go for I don't know this bamboo shirt right that's that's trying to express probably who I am in one way or the other and you briefly mentioned something about brands and that made me think like what is the interplay between these two things because probably the marketing department here will say people choose our products and our services because of our brand rather than because probably they are linked to trends so what is the relationship between brands branding and the stuff that we just talked about? I think for some brands there's a very direct connection coming back to what you said this now is that about the products that these brands design are part of creating popular culture as well so for some brands I think there's really strong alignment and I think that even though you have a strong kind of brand you know you have a strong brand you could still tweak the experience or your new services to new or to trends and new trends but I think it's probably perhaps also as interesting for brands that new brands like new services that are trying to make it on the market like how can they offer experiences that are competing with these large brands in some way especially when it comes to for example in fashion we see services for reusing things or repairing things they have to really be good at offering great experiences so that they also can compete with established brands that are that are sort of so interconnected with popular culture Personal question is what are some of the trends that you are excited about right now Yes there are quite a few I'll just pull forward one I think which is important and I think there are lots of friends that start as trends and as I said they become sort of more like part of our everyday lives but recently there's at least in service innovation and technology there's been a huge focus on women's health like women's health and women's well-being which I find really interesting you see new services popping up like Ula, Wildflower, Vyra like that are sort of catering women's needs in different phases of our lives so women's health is like you know we have all these different stages we go through we have pregnancy, we have menopause and there's a lot more focus on this now and there's a lot more yeah sort of tailored services that offer these holistic experiences that really kind of understand these different needs so it's not about you know health as one big thing it's about understanding how these can shift in line with different phases of your life and I think another really interesting thing is sort of the potential that lies in this if we start looking at that so one thing is you have different services but you could also start to think of I saw this Norwegian training like Workout Studio and it was just the advertisement but they're talking about how women could work out differently during like a cycle so you know you could start thinking about how could we use this to offer like different type of subscriptions how can we use this to offer different type of classes I think there's lots of exciting and interesting potential there that hasn't been fully explored and this is I think a great and practical example like if you stay in the service realm if you are a fitness studio it's just as easy for you to look at trends and connect to that. You don't have to be I don't know an Uber, an Airbnb like you don't have to be a huge brand yeah exactly you can find something that's sort of relevant to your core offering and then how can we expand on that like how can we see all our different parts of our service and infuse these if you could say so with some kind of popular culture and it could be small things like just tiny interactions or it could be larger things like events or physical touch points well that's an example that came to my mind was there are a lot of holiday options these days that sort of help you to reconnect with nature like in the Netherlands we have vacations that you can actually stay at a farm and be amongst the cattle and with the farmer and sort of get your fresh eggs straight out of the chicken almost so that connects to I guess a trend where people want to reconnect with nature so definitely a million of options yeah what would be you already mentioned something about how to start is there you mentioned something about a tool that you developed any other tips for getting people up to speed and bringing this into their again into their practice it could be you know just starting conversations about it it could be just acknowledging this other emotional meaningful aspect of your service it could be sort of looking beyond the functional meaning what value are we bringing to our users and discussion is always good I think one thing that I worked a bit with was also like concept like service concept development like just starting to find trends and just do quick sort of concept sketches on what could this look like because I saw that at least in a larger organization these were great sort of tools for prompting conversations right because you can start seeing something you start discussing it and it's a bit like in the car industry right you would have concept cars and you would have like these huge shows where car brands would just like show newest technology future cars that would never be produced but it's a way of showing that this is where we're going and this is what's possible you know with technology or with materials or with whatever so I find that really interesting also in service design like how could you use these sort of concept services as a way of starting to discuss more strategic decisions I love this example I don't know if it moves into design fiction because I don't know too much about design fiction but I absolutely can see an exercise where you would if we stick with the fitness studio think about the trend of women's health how would a fitness studio look there but also reconnecting with nature how would a fitness studio look that does that and then you can pick eight other trends just to open the opportunity space and the solution space and think about what if that's a great exercise I think that's super and then what if and then being able to define how that would influence all these parts of the service so I think that's a great exercise that's a great exercise I would agree if somebody made it all the way to this moment in our conversation what is the one thing you hope that they will remember and walk away with I think I hope people sort of understand that popular culture can offer you can offer a sort of inspiration for example as a designer and that by implementing or using popular culture influence you can you can sort of design for experiences that hopefully people find valuable and connect with and in this sort of also that we haven't talked much about this but as a service designer you know you are translating cultural meaning you are kind of a mediator and you are part of shaping culture so I think it's important for people in practice to at least reflect upon Thank you for bringing this in and I love it because I think still in the service design space we don't really have a good vocabulary about the design materials that we are working with time relationships people but also adding trends and rituals to our palette it becomes I don't know it becomes easier you sort of see what the things are that you can influence so thank you Claire thanks for coming on and sharing this with us and I hope a lot of people will get inspired and start using trends and we'll be able to see more pop culture embedded inside the services that we use yes thank you so much Mark great conversation what is the trend that you'd like to incorporate in the services that you are designing leave a comment down below and let's learn from each other give a huge shout out to Claire for coming on the show and sharing her learnings with us by getting a better grasp on what the materials are that make up the services around us we can take our craft to the next level my name is Mark Fontaine and I want to thank you for spending a small part of your day with me it was an absolute honor and pleasure please keep making a positive impact and I'll catch you very soon in a brand new episode of the service design show