 We have some excellent panelists who are experts in the field of all things Gutenberg, if they do say so themselves. And we are going to help answer as many questions as we can, as much as possible. I'm Matt Brownwell. I'm going to support at GiveWP.com, and I'm going to moderate a little bit in one way or another, so we'll see how that goes. We're going to do some quick introductions, and I have a couple of questions to warm them up, and to help warm your mind up for your questions. And once we get through those, then we'll start doing the just open floor questions, alright? So, introductions, who are you, and what do you do, and why do you care about Gutenberg? Okay, hello. My name is Laura Schenk, and what do I do? Well, I was a freelance developer for like six or seven years, and I recently have become a new full-time hire at Penske Media Corporation, where I'm a design operations engineer, and I'm kind of working on smoothing out the design-to-development workflow among a lot of big WordPress VIP sites. So it's a lot of front-end development. And also some back-end, lots of fun things. And why I'm excited about Gutenberg, I think Gutenberg is the shining star in the future if we're bringing up the value of user experience and design in the WordPress ecosystem and putting the user first, so. Hi, bro. My name is Leo Post-Away. I am a WordPress consultant next WP. We are an enterprise WordPress agency, which is sort of not true, but sort of true. We build websites that we actually built a couple of sites for Penske Media Corp. We just recently launched Rollingstone.com, and for that we did variety. Day-to-day, I currently am the product owner of the AMP for WordPress plugin. I also do stuff with PWAs. I'm really excited about Gutenberg because it's about the future, but I'm also really worried. I'll tell you more about it. Hi, my name is Roy Siobhan. I am a senior software engineer at the Walt Disney Company. I primarily spend most of my time working on our WordPress sites. We do have a few. I work on them. I'm excited for Gutenberg because working in the enterprise realm with a team of content editors and content creators, I think it's going to level up their experience and make their jobs a lot better, and it's going to help us out a lot. Can everybody hear us all right? Is the volume good? Yep. Cool, cool. My first question for the panelists is, and we kind of touched on it just a little tiny bit, but how do you think Gutenberg is going to benefit the ecosystem the most? What makes you most excited about seeing it coming out? Who is it going to benefit? How is it going to be awesome? All those types of things. To echo what Roy had said, I think Gutenberg will make the experience for people using WordPress sites and publishing on WordPress so much better. For example, now on some of the sites that I'm working on, the content connections and the way an editor or a publisher has to think about what shows up where on a website is very convoluted and was kind of designed by developers in a lot of ways. So Gutenberg, the presentation, like to put something on a page, you have to see it. So rather than having these kind of taxonomy connections, like in the engineering side, everything's going to be to the forefront. So the front end and kind of the visual display of things are baked into the process. Cool. So Gutenberg is a big change. It is not a small change. It's the biggest code change to WordPress in the last 10 years. So I've been watching and reading and understanding and unpacking all the things that are changing and all the things that can change. There's a plugin called Drop It. This is my favorite little one I'll mention. You can now automatically query the unsplash API and get free images that can automatically appear in your Gutenberg site. There are things like Yoast, for example, where you can add entity structure data blocks. I know the other talk, which many of you guys are happy because you're here, are since talking about structured data and JSON and SEO. This stuff matters and it's really hard. Gutenberg makes it like this. It's super easy. It's super simple. So Gutenberg gives us all this opportunity. It also allows us to now just start to argue for a new kind of conversation where we can talk about JavaScript very deeply. Laura actually gave a really great talk on how to build lots of work here. We can go watch this. It's a great talk. And you can actually see now that you see people who are giving really, really simple approaches to how to build stuff. And all the local meetups all across Southern California, there's probably one near you. People are talking about Gutenberg on a regular basis. It's an opportunity for us to come together and get excited about something new and worth our time. I don't know how to add to most of that. You guys have said everything. Shameless plug. I am talking about Gutenberg development at 3.30 in one of the rooms. So come check me out. We're going to be talking about that. But from an engineering point of view, we talked about the user role side of it, right? Creating this great user experience for people to write content. The developer side of it is actually really, really cool because I've been talking about advanced development since I started with WordPress. I've always tried to push the boundaries. Now we're seeing something like React come into core, which doesn't matter to a user who's writing content. But as to a developer seeing a new age framework come into WordPress is a huge deal. It allows us to use this new age tech for something that we already had been using for the past 10 years. On top of that, it really lends itself well to other applications that are powered by Gutenberg to dive too much into my talk for later. But having something like React allows us to have a unified front end and back end experience, which we haven't seen yet in the WordPress realm. Thanks. So I'm going to ask them one more question and then I'm going to turn it to you and maybe we'll have a whole lot of awkward silence. I don't know, but hopefully not. So get your questions ready, all right? Next question is, what is it about Gutenberg, broadly speaking, that makes you most concerned? I'll go first. Roy's going first. I think we'll switch it up a little bit so I'm not just tagging along with a lot of things. So Leo said data. Data scares the crap out of me when it comes to Gutenberg because while it lends itself really well to the UI of blocks, in a developer's mind, you see blocks of block, block, block with each one has its own data. You would think, hey, that's a cool array of data with extra data in each of those objects, but that's not how Gutenberg actually saves the data to the database. Not at all, not even remotely. So that part really scares me because when I think of like, how do we use WordPress and Gutenberg or other things outside of the WordPress ecosystem, not having structured data, which is another talk that's going on, is really scary. Structured data makes everything a lot easier to build. When you're talking about not just themes and plugins, when you're talking about let's build something really advanced and something that maybe just takes a little bit of the WordPress data but then brings in other APIs. So New York Times is a great example. They do a lot of stuff with WordPress that's headless. I think the first time was maybe one of the presidential elections. Say they did all their interactive maps and stuff where front end headless, but they were powered by WordPress. So people were writing WordPress posts in the back end and they were getting updated with all this other JavaScript and all this other cool UI stuff completely separate from a theme, as you might know it. The only thing that really concerns me about Gutenberg right now is really like, how are we addressing the developer side of it? We're empowering developers with React. We're saying, hey learn new JavaScript stuff, learn more, become better developers. But now on the flip side we're saying well here's a bunch of crap data. So I don't know, that's one part that really concerns me. So I have worked with publishers for a very long time. Back many, many months ago when I was in college we built the very first mobile responsive college publication with the second publication in WordPress to launch a site that was meant for user browser or mobile browsers back in 2009. And I've been watching like weird stuff right on the edge for the last 10 years. I love this space. The thing is, legacy content is a real problem. There are literally 190 million websites running on WordPress. It's a third of the web. A lot of the sites that I built would break if Gutenberg was activated in terms of content editing and flow. So I've been spending a lot of time meditating on this idea. How do we actually protect this question? So I think unless we actually train people on what legacy should look like things could go really, really south. The worst examples might be people replatforming either big corporations enterprises, whatever. Or even just small people saying why would I bother installing a website when Wix or Squarespace is cheaper at least in terms of my mental headspace. I just pay someone to worry about my problems for me. So I think the biggest problem is around being set for legacy content at least in the short term there are answers. There's things like the classic plugin and the classic editor plugin and there's Gutenberg ramp which no one is talking about. You don't actually have to turn on Gutenberg yet. So between these two plugins and a little bit of training I think we can actually ease into this. But the community and some people who are involved in WordPress.org at the very top are pushing for a really big merge. If this merge happens and activation happens by default some scary things might happen that I personally have worked on might break. So that's my fear is that all of the web and at least managing that content might not be possible in the future. So both of those things also and I'm also concerned that I'm not going to have any hard drive space left because it's all going to be node modules. But for real that and I really enjoy writing JavaScript and I'm really excited that that's going to be more part of my job in the future. However I think the structure of Gutenberg and how CSS is going to work within Gutenberg and just in general when JavaScript is where your markup is stored it kind of removes that layer of the separation of concerns when it comes to front end development and that can be an okay place if the right kind of standards and outlook are part of it but it can also engender and encourage a lot of bad practices in terms of accessibility and like redundancy in your code so I would fear a little bit for the quality of the front end when it comes to the back end of WordPress as in the admin side. So yeah, time will tell but nice. Great. All right. No awkward silence at all. Excellent. Let me ask just one super quick survey question. Is anybody feeling like they need a really quick like Gutenberg 101 what is Gutenberg and why aren't we talking about it? Yep, yep. Okay, let me just do that super super quick real quick just so we're all on at least the same minimum page and then we'll do those quick questions. So Gutenberg is basically what's going to be the next and the future way that you write content in WordPress. Right now, when you actually go to add a new post what you see there is what's called TinyMCE it's a a WidgingWide editor and now when once WordPress 5.0 comes out it's not going to be that way there's going to be more or less what looks like a blank slate until you start clicking in and then you'll see there's lots of different handles and what not to be able to do, to be able to drop in blocks. It's a block-based editor instead of basically just like a word processor type editor. And that's what we're moving towards. Right now it's a plugin as soon as WordPress 5.0 comes out which is probably this calendar year then that's going to be the default. There are options to disable it. I think Leo mentioned Classic Editor plugin is there to prevent your site from using Gutenberg if you are worried about it it is going to be the default for now and the future. Matt has a great talk about Gutenberg from WordCamp San Diego so check out WordPress.tv I'm pretty sure it's on there. It's not. Maybe one day. Question, what's your name? I'm Cat. So Gutenberg scares me to death and it's because I'm primarily a designer type person class of a coder type person and so for the websites that I use, for the websites that I work with I use a theme that has a built in page builder and that built in page builder is not to me although it's awfully similar to what I understand. And it allows me to do incredible things to make my pages look exactly the way I want them to look. And even it allows me to say on phones I want them to look this way on desktops I want them to look this way on tablets I want them to look this way if I really have to make those mental adjustments and allows me incredibly granular editing of how my text appears and allows me to throw in custom CSS to and I'm afraid all of this is just going to explode and and I'm afraid what happens when WordPress 5.0 comes out do I try to put classic editor plug the enemy in because I can actually work in either those two things with this particular theme classic editor if I don't want to use it a lot because if I don't want to use the page builder for most of my pages I build the page builder. Alright so to summarize Ken has a theme that is not Divvy but Divvy S and it's a very full featured page builder by itself and he's concerned that when 5.0 comes out that Gutenberg is trying to prevent him from having that really heavy customization that he's used to with that particular theme and builder. What's going to happen? Who wants to take that? Leo. So I've actually spoken to quite a few people who work in some of the page builder companies I know people who used to work at Divvy Elementor, Adverse Proposer I've talked to people about this question quite a bit my answer is sort of two things for you the end user tomorrow nothing is going to end and the other plugin I mentioned Gutenberg Ramp this plugin no one is talking about Gutenberg Ramp and the idea is that you ramp up into Gutenberg based on your workflow based on a site-wide basis so what this does is it says Gutenberg is not ready for my existence yet I don't need to worry about this yet I can decide to defer this to a later point in my world potentially never if you wanted to make the most important part in the WordPress it's not my job to tell you how to build your website my job is to make sure that you know that there are options out there that being said long-term if you really want to make performant websites really interesting websites to do things that are going to be the future like Morton Ram Kendrickson gave a great talk at Workcamp US last year talking about how the future of WordPress is going to be things like VR I'm actually right now working on a project that involves VR with WordPress it's weird it's wild why not right why don't we try pushing the boundaries of things that's the future but that being said if your job is to make a website for a client that needs to look like the moxie provided don't change your workflow do that tomorrow but when you're ready and you want to migrate that way great the second part of this is on the page builder side all of these companies are figuring out different answers to this basic problem so I know Divvy for example is working really hard to come up with a solution for Gutenberg the proposal that I talked about with them is that there needs to be a shared language across builders the real idea would be if they could share that information inside blocks that Gutenberg native could actually use so that's not currently what's actually going to happen yet but these are ideas that are being floating so long term you should be able to edit something with Visual Composer or Divvy or Gutenberg and it's just content so agnostic of that content and editor should be able to do whatever it wants with those different pieces in the same way that Pages or Microsoft Word or Google Docs can edit a file in theory these editors can share that different set of components so tomorrow install those two plugins or today if you want try them out see if it works for you if it solves your workflow great if not reach out to your page builder tell them that you want to work with this and you want to solve this and it's their job to help you figure that out cool so I have a couple things to add to that one I mentioned it quite a bit during all my Gutenberg talks there's a difference between a page builder and Gutenberg in the current form in Gutenberg's current state it's a content editor it is there for you to write content if you are creating all your blog posts with a page builder I'm sorry that takes way too much time if you just want to write content because you're writing a blog that's what Gutenberg's for everything that's all around your blog post content that's what the page builders for so there's a clear distinction right now that might get blurry as we move forward and Gutenberg starts introducing layout style blocks but for right now blocks are like paragraph header image right they're not columns they're not full with column there are there are I don't recommend using them quite yet but there are things like that but keep in mind there is a difference between the two second if you're using a theme or plug-in for any of your work for clients you're in a much better spot than I'm in because you have someone else that their business is relying on being compatible with WordPress mine isn't I have to make everything myself right so if you are currently consulting and you're using something from theme floors or anywhere else talk to them about being Gutenberg compatible because it's their job not yours to be Gutenberg compatible you just you're paying them for that right that's on them Matt knows a lot about this because he runs a plug-in company helps run a plug-in company that's all they're going to be doing for a while probably is how we're working with Gutenberg so keep that in mind don't feel like because Gutenberg is coming your world is going to collapse because it's not your world that's going to collapse it's really their world that should already be collapsing while they're trying to figure out Gutenberg and then you should just be able to click 5.0 update, theme update, and it should just go well and if that's not going to happen maybe you should rethink who you're buying the code from that's kind of that spiel so it's not going to be the end of the world there's a big push for backwards compatibility there's a big push for a lot of things in my world what I'm pushing for is more what we call an LTS which for my point of view I would love 4.9.9 whatever I'm going to stay around until we're ready one thing that you guys would probably relate to but extrapolated into the enterprise realm is when you have someone like Gutenberg coming there's not just a matter of okay let's make sure our theme is compatible we have to train the hundreds of content editors how to use this thing so that's time and money that they're not spending writing your content that they're training that's time and money of me training them how to use Gutenberg I'm not really talking about that quite yet because everyone's like push Gutenberg it'll be fine we should push the community forward and I'm all for that but when your ROI isn't in fixing what you have but creating new content to make more money you have a hard time saying okay let me stop making money for a second while I learn something and then I'll continue making money it's really hard so I feel for anyone that's like that in that position you can teach your client so I don't know there's a lot out there that people aren't talking about quite yet but I think as it gets closer and closer we're going to see more and more solutions like I never heard about Gutenberg ramp until Leo told me a couple days ago and I'm going to go test it tomorrow basically one thing dad sort of a different approach to this question from someone who has a design background kind of like a self-taught developer very much on the development side of things now like HTML and CSS are a really beautiful design medium so I would maybe you could look at this as an opportunity to kind of adopt those into your practice a little bit more and I could see just because of the way Gutenberg is structured like the the ability to take a static HTML and CSS file that has your design how you want it and translating that into blocks would be a much easier process than translating it into PHP templates and so that could be kind of a way things go in the future but yeah HTML and CSS are awesome and can really be their own design medium too so I have one more quick comment and most people I think today moving forward building a new site should start with Gutenberg I would not go back to your current builder not yet at least that would be my strong recommendation unless you know that your builder will be compatible in the future which if I had to guess you probably most people today that are learning WordPress should be learning Gutenberg first most people that should be adopting new techniques new practices should be learning Gutenberg first because it really is the future and as I mentioned layout walks when we finally get there the next side of Gutenberg gets really cool really weird and really confusing especially if you haven't learned all these basic concepts so we're going there we strongly hope that you come along it's going to be really fun question and I'm sure you guys would like to think about it I've been a big fan of structured content and I think the WordPress how do you use it content encourages and I use in there as possible to be able to understand what the site is like so I feel like you do what I think you ought to happen check out how people prepare and how it fits all of my sites whether it's in WordPress or I can maintain the structure of the content to be able to build a different page I think it's how what's your experience so far from that kind of frame strength so we're going to be studying to make sure I can build sites that still have some structure that's just going to help the other users so I'm ready to question this from a developer perspective how is Gutenberg handling structured data specifically and one of the kinds of things we should be concerned about as we're looking towards building more sites with Gutenberg in the future and interacting with that data in the database with dump heap area and other things as well so structured data in Gutenberg Roy just a preemptive can I get a show of hands who doesn't know what backwards compatibility is I've never heard of it so everyone's heard of it backwards compatibility 101 for WordPress is if you're running an older version of WordPress it should still work plan something so Drupal did an interesting thing when they went to Drupal 8 they said if you're running 7 it's not going to work anymore and I think if WordPress did that from 4 to 5 so while as a developer I'm all for that kind of thing I'm not 30% of the internet I'm like 1% not even so structured data I'm guessing you used ACF like flex flex content to create layouts and stuff like that just regular ACF fields yeah so that's basically what we do a lot of point 1 to that Ellie Condon who runs ACF has always been a huge proponent of Gutenberg even from some of the more beginning interviews with him he said we are going to support it luckily like what 2 days ago 3 days ago he just released ACF 5 and it is now you can create Gutenberg blocks with it you can do your data with it they're doing a lot of cool stuff over there which I haven't even tested yet but I'm going to test it out so I'm going to be the next I'm going to install RAMP and then install that and then I'm going to see what happens so definitely keep on board with ACF again as a person who uses someone else's product and their business is to keep compatible with WordPress you're in a much better state than a lot of like enterprise developers who don't I'm lucky that I get to use ACF at work so we're going to leverage that as much as we can um the data itself of Gutenberg um backwards compatibility is basically like what's the crutch there it's a we need to make sure that if you don't install it, if you're running 3-point something that your site's not just going to melt down so I get it they take all of the data and they make it in a way and they save it to the database in a way that will still work on those sites so it means that if you turn on 5-point now your site shouldn't break Matt's done this in his talk he turned on Gutenberg and it looks exactly the same not everything's going to be like that but for the most part it theoretically should as far as if you want to move into like templating her block that is where you have to start getting a little bit tricky so again not to pitch my 330 talk but I'm going to be talking about hijacked the Gutenberg save process and then save it to a new place in the database which so you can get a structured data from it so I have both PHP and JavaScript through REST AP as well you get an array of data and then you can just iterate through that create a template for each one you know I have a case study I'm going to go through for Airstream the trailer company where we're doing this same thing same concept we are iterating through every single block it's been a really great experience because of my plugin in the middle and what we're doing on a headless front end it's actually been a really great WordPress experience and I threw WooCommerce in there too if you want to know about WooCommerce at Gutenberg come to my 330 talk as well but yeah it's been a lot of fun and it's possible to get structured data out of it just not out of the box right now they might merge something cool into core you know in the long run before it comes out and I guess that's another preemptive thing we should have said Gutenberg's still in flight Gutenberg's still being worked on right now so you might have you might have learned Gutenberg two weeks ago and today everything you've learned is pretty much employed maybe not that drastic but I know from my plugin I'm going to do all the respect yeah like my plugin had a bunch of bugs this past week because they switched a couple things up and I had to go fix all those but it's in flight doesn't mean you shouldn't learn it you should definitely learn it because conceptually it's going to be the same but it's still in flight so keep that in mind as well yeah I'm sure I'm sure you're aware of this structure data but should we be on a given presentation about it or is that channel I don't want to talk about this so I have a very good answer to this so the question is should we go on the github board and talk about structured data there so at a really basic level Gutenberg is a CMS agnostic editor currently it doesn't actually matter that this works there's actually a big project involving Gutenberg and Drupal Drupal actually does answer the question that we were talking about the structured data in a way that's a little bit cleaner also because it's react-based you can have a reduct store we can do all kinds of cool things in the future we haven't talked about yet one day we might be able for example to extract history of how people work with content that's gonna be a really really cool thing to see if I wanted to query a site I don't know what quotes for whatever reason I want to create a feature that showed every quote that a site had instead of a section called quotes that'll be possible in the future if we have the right data structure but currently that's not how things are set up things are set up in a very legacy focused way so that question that fear I mentioned earlier you're gonna be okay but we won't be able to do things we really want to do yet it's a trade-off one thing to add here so given that Gutenberg is all JavaScript we can use APIs and bring in data from other places so if you have structured data stored elsewhere or perhaps you have like Raquel showed in the dynamic blocks talk yesterday pulling in data from other parts of the WordPress site or the WordPress install to display in the editor that would be kind of a way to assemble content from elsewhere other structured areas we only have 10 minutes left all of a sudden so we're going into rapid round so I'm gonna try to get as many questions as I can and probably just one person to respond to each so also if you could keep your questions to sync that would be really helpful too we'll be around for the rest of the camp too so if you need to ask us something after what is the theme development in Gutenberg sounds like right now everything's kind of contained in the content in the external patterns is that basically just built themes around the third block summary of the question is theme development with Gutenberg does a theme overall that Gutenberg is really just contained within the content area which I'm just going to answer that yes we rolled out in three phases actually this phase right now is the editor and then the next phase is Gutenberg is actually going to heavily influence the customizer so essentially you'll be able to have lock type editing in the customizer area so you might be able to actually create your header, your footer in a drag and drop kind of layout nobody knows what it's really going to look like but essentially then the third phase is theme development the WordPress core team is going to release a Gutenberg centric theme and so those three things all together are going to kind of change the whole way you think about building on your website so question for those that are just familiar with their own website and right here that's what we're talking about but Roy said I have multiple clients that I somehow have to teach a brand new system here maybe some kind of like how to detail how to how to for Gutenberg specifically or transitioning how to how to question is is there going to be some training around Gutenberg specifically so one thing I would imagine, I don't know this for sure but I would imagine yes and also when you open up Gutenberg there are kind of little tool tips in different areas they're little flourishes in the interface to be suddenly faced with yeah so I have talked a lot to the WordPress.org community team about this I know that they're actively developing materials for local meetups so again we have a community there are people in your neighborhood doing this stuff one of the core ideas of this camp is that you have a neighborhood there's a giant map out there you can see where your local meetup is go to your meetup participate in your meetup become an active participant in that meetup understand the questions you need to ask and find out that stuff because that's probably how you're going to learn about this stuff because it's not going to be solvable in a 3 minute video that being said there are going to be 3 minute videos that's a good question also you've been in solid today yeah generally good question thanks I saw other hands yeah yeah yeah Matt hey Matt can you give us a schedule it's a really valid question that has no answer the question was what is the schedule for those 3 phases of Boomerang being rolled out the editor wanted it's supposed to come out this calendar year but they're right now working on 4.9.9 and they gave it like a 3 or 4 week development cycle which is really really really really short but it's a minor update so they might be able to do that and then they're going to switch from that to rolling out 5.0 and they still want to do that all this calendar year after that in terms of essentially what comes after that I think it all depends on how well 5.0 really goes so there's no real answer to that at the end of the day but it will be a Matt sequence it will be the editor then it will be the optimizer then it will be the theme questions how does this happen so this is probably local news so if we try to use the Boomerang but it's not actually the editor it's just a go to the admin is it something else the question is if I install the plugin today is that exactly what I'm going to get 5.0 comes down essentially is that the question so first of all when you install it today it's a plugin so we have to install it then activate it as soon as you activate it when you go to add a new post it will ask you do you want to use the Gutenberg editor or do you want to use the classic editor so that's one great thing about how it is currently is it going to change much between Gutenberg as you see it now and Gutenberg when it comes out in 5 probably not there's not going to be too many changes maybe at this point they're wrapping up a lot of just like accessibility issues a lot of like minor little bugs so overall it's going to be the same experience but there might be a little tweaks here and there sometimes a lot of them are really better like there's a new like distraction free mode that they just really not that long ago which allows you to really focus on the content I think one overarching thing that we didn't really talk about which anyone who has a concern about Gutenberg the answer is testing get your site up and running somewhere that's not production and test it and if you don't know how to do that there's a bunch of hosting companies outside go to each one and say how easy it is and how much will it cost me to test my site on for Gutenberg and there's one of them that I know that I'm not going to name my name that'll be free so you can actually get up and running and test your site with Gutenberg for free I'll let you figure out which one it is but it allows you to really test and ultimately that's what you need to do you need to test it out come back a week later update everything and test it again and as soon as you feel confident in your site running on it then you can start moving towards production but yeah any time someone asks me or tells me their concerns about Gutenberg my answer is always default hey test it out see what happens other questions that speed round was helpful they only have space well do you anticipate, I use Disney and what I really like is that in a Divi module that has text I can use the Gutenberg editor do you think that's going to happen? yeah the question is for page builders specifically Divi or others will you have the ability to add like a text module to your page builder and that that text module would essentially be Gutenberg itself rather than the tiny mce that they normally default to I actually have talked to the Divi team and that is one of their plans for sure I have concerns about it because that's a lot of code inception happening but it's the same with tiny mce I'm working on a project I know that actually heavily uses nested blocks nested blocks is definitely not mature the project is ant stories you can look it up on GitHub but you're curious it's super pre-alpha, it's super buggy it's really fun everything is coming, this will be there but we're not there we have two minutes, John you said your best advice is to install it how would you describe sufficient testing for that install it sorry it's a question so the question was how would you define sufficient testing for Gutenberg so if the advice is go install it and test it, what exactly does that entail from my perspective I think using it so like write a blog post in Gutenberg I installed it on my personal site and made a couple of small blocks for myself, custom things but definitely encountered some issues so use it how you would use Gutenberg as an editor I think and so you mentioned you have a new site and you mentioned a lot of ROI and your concerns about the way you actually approach your business so I work a lot with publications I have worked a lot with publications I would be thinking about my daily workflow if I wrote down the 10 things that I do the 10 things that are critical to me in WordPress whatever those things are I would be actually testing those things if I can't do them yet I wouldn't switch but if I can then I would see say yes this is worth my time because as I mentioned earlier those all kinds of things like data, integrations, future plugins all this future tech that we really want to be able to enable for you that isn't possible unless you come along for the ride you can probably keep your old WordPress site around for a long time but take advantage of it take advantage of the free host and take advantage of the free community support take advantage of the people around you that are willing to help you figure this out I think the biggest test which is not necessarily valid for everybody but the biggest test you could probably do is edit an existing post see what happens when you click edit and see what happens if you're happy with the output because you need to edit old posts that's fine that would be a good test if you never edit your old posts don't worry about it because they're good to stay the same I think we're out of time thank you all very much and all these folks are going to be out in the hallway area and can answer more questions for sure thanks so much