 Podcast Studio, presenting Data Movers, showcasing the leaders behind the headlines in the telecom and data center infrastructure industry. Welcome, welcome, welcome, everyone, to Data Movers. I am your host, Jamie Scottokataya, CEO and founder of JSA. And joined with me is my dear friend and colleague, co-host, top B2B social media influencer, Mr. Evan Christel. Hey, Evan. Hey, Jamie. Hey, everyone. Thanks for watching Data Movers, where we sit down with the most influential men and women of today's leading telco and data center world. Another exciting episode here, discussing the network infrastructure requirements of this new modern world. Jamie, how are you? Can you believe it's Q4? We're halfway through October. Ah, I cannot believe it. It's starting to feel like holiday mood. I've got my pumpkin spice latte going and I'm ready for the holiday. Of course you do. You are a pumpkin spice gal. Oh, thanks. I can say that. But speaking of which, we have winter. Ahead of us, winter is coming. It's hard to believe. You Southern California people, it's you don't really worry about winter. Gets to the 60s. It's terrible. Oh, yeah. I got to put a sweater on. I bring up the fleece. It's just awful. But I'm thinking about winter travel and where to go. And usually I flee south like the warmth, like where you are, or Mexico, or anywhere, but Boston, New England. But I don't know, this winter I'm thinking of going north for a change. Have you ever been to Scandinavia, to Iceland, to Finland, these northern countries in the winter? Not the summer. In the winter? No, in the spring. But I will say my team just came back from a really exciting data cloud ESG. In Oslo, Norway. And I know our guests as well were there and speaking. And a lot of amazing brands came out to talk sustainability, because they know what they're doing up there. And they're really bringing their insights to the world. Yeah, they do. Santa Claus has something going on up north. Yeah, I think I want to go to Finland and run with the reindeer, or go to Iceland and swim in a geothermal spa. I don't know. I'm just in the mood. I can see it's been very colorful this year. Until then, let's bring on our guests, because they know a lot about the northern European atmosphere, particularly in tech. Do they not? They do, they do, they do. Let us get right to it, guys, here. Data Movers, you know we love to really get to know our guests with their background stories, their career highs and lows, their unique perspectives on the future of our industry. And we are so excited to welcome today Vern's global CTO, Tate Cantrell, and managing director, Finland, Kim Ganylius. Hey, Tate and Kim. Hi, Jamie. Hey, Evan. Hey, good to see you. Good to meet you. We've never been introduced, but I'm really intrigued by what you guys are doing. And really excited to chat with you both. I'm actually just reading your announcement from late last year. You formed a northern European data center-wide platform based in Finland, in Iceland, in the UK. And expanding. And expanding, wow. So we want to hear all about that, how the collaboration with Vern Global. Finland and Vern Global is going. And one year later, what have you achieved? What are you looking to achieve? And let's talk about the present and future, gentlemen. Well, just to kick it off, thank you for having us. It's exciting to be on data movers. And we're really excited about what we've been able to do at Vern, not only over the last year, but really the last decade and a half. And actually, Vern Finland and Vern Iceland were on parallel tracks, really, in a lot of regards. And we came together, as you've read in press announcements, when we came with a common ownership. And instead of running with two separate companies in the Nordics, we convinced our ownership to have all three of our campuses, Iceland, London, Finland, all to brand under the Vern Global logo and combine our efforts. And so over the past year, as with many mergers, acquisitions, these kinds of things, it's all about looking for the synergies between the teams and building upon that. And I'll just say that in Iceland, London, and Finland, we've got a lot of construction going on. There's a huge expansion that we have going on in Iceland. We have some great plans for expanding in Finland. And you might even see some announcements soon in some other Nordic locations, where we will be moving the platform forward. Yeah, from my perspective, you know, having focused on expanding Finland, getting together with the Vern team has been really great, especially since it kind of brings more traction, it gives you in front of more customers. So it really changes the reach and the way that the market, the different players see you. So also an opportunity to learn from each other, not only in sales and marketing, but all about the operations. And it's of course an industry where there's so much happening. So the opportunity to learn from like-minded people who are focused on, you know, making sustainable solutions and focused on the biggest clients in the world is really helpful. No, in talking sustainability, a topic near and dear that I love to chat with Kim about, often as we roll out our books, screener data, volume two, Kim is back as another author, a returning author, but again, so much moving forward in the world of sustainability, especially now with the power of AI. It's really, you know, automating routine tasks or inspiring content prompts or, you know, just this generative AI, such as chat GPT, emboldening what we can do now, what we can envision together and really impacting across an array of industries. It's also been reported to help when it comes to, again, large societal concerns like climate change. So as leaders in sustainability, what does sustainable AI mean to you and for the data center industry as a whole, Kim, I'll start with you. Well, I mean, there's such a lot of stuff happening in the space. Like, you know, when chat GPT came out, the, it looked like we're hitting an inflection point in the space where the growth is starting to be really exponential. So with exponential growth, typically you see, you know, slow growth in the beginning and suddenly it hits, you know, where it starts to go super fast. For instance, one kind of data point is that a chat GPT query uses maybe 600 times more energy than a simple Google search. So once you get into AI solutions using, shall we say, you know, doing stuff with video or whatever, this is gonna go even faster. So with the huge demand coming out there, sustainability really becomes a key point. So our vision has been that a significant portion of the data out there that is processed can be moved. And this is really true with many of the AI type models. So we think that you should move it to the most sustainable location. And that would be the Nordics where there's a lot of green power available. So that's really our way of thinking about that topic. I love that, Tate. Yeah, I mean, the whole point of having an optimized location for an application, that's really the journey that we've been on from the very beginning. When Vernglobal started in Iceland, we didn't choose Iceland at random. We chose it because it was both low cost and excellent in terms of sustainability. 100% of the electricity generated within Iceland is either geothermal or hydro and a growing amount of wind. So 100% sustainability on the energy sources, but very low cost. And when we first started with this vision, you might even say that some of the technology hadn't quite caught up with the vision. And what we're seeing now with the movement forward with Generative AI is we have an application that's perfect for a region such as Iceland, such as Finland and the other Nordic locations. And I think one thing that's interesting about the potential for artificial intelligence is we're seeing a technology that can deal with data at global scale. And that's important because the problems that we have challenged the future of humanity with, if I'm quite honest, they are global problems. And so if you have something, if you have problems that where the solution is only possible by leveraging global data, well, now you actually have to pull the data to a single location. And that's what we've been able to create is these huge facilities that are powered by green energy, are sustainable by the origin of the vision, operated by a company that's been operating high-intensity computing for the last 15 years. Music to our ears. Wow, that's super exciting, Tate. And the irony is Gen AI usage and new applications are gonna require a complete rethink of the data center. And yet it's that same AI technology or new approaches that will revolutionize data center, design, security, cooling, even construction. You've seen Meta even shared some details on their approach to AI advancement and AI optimized data center design. So, how does this revolution that's happening really affect your thinking when it comes to your data center, design, cooling and all the intricacies that are in Tate? Sure, well, I mean, we're re-looking at all of our designs because the pressure of the network, the pressure to get the data as close as it can to the silicone is what's really driving this next level of innovation with the facilities themselves. We used to operate in a world where CPU chips were 100 watts a piece and it was very easy to cool those with traditional air-cooled approaches. But if you start to, if you think about the traditional like heat sink that you're used to, which is a piece of copper or tin that's actually pulling heat up from the chip into an airstream and that air is then moving the heat outside of the server box. These things are typically small devices that sit right physically on top of the chip. And what's crazy is what's happened if we think about NVIDIA, I'm sure all of your viewers will have seen those, the pictures inside the box of the H100 machines with eight GPUs and this beautiful NVIDIA branding over the top of this structure, this like infrastructure. Thing is that infrastructure, this like thick infrastructure that's heat sinks. That's what's required to pull the heats out of the chips and it's only gonna get more intense because the applications today are focused on parallel computing and matrix calculations that require that all of the cores that are part of the calculation complete their workload before the next phase goes. And that means pulling the data closer and closer. That means higher density and higher demands on the equipment, higher demands on the data center. So we're having to rethink cooling. Luckily for us in the Nordics, we've been dealing with 50 kilowatt cabinets for many years and we can attribute that to the fact that much like Evan will see when he's venturing north towards Iceland and Finland this winter, we don't have much trouble cooling things down up in the Nordics. But even in the Nordics, when you get into intensity levels of 50, 100, 200 kilowatts per cabinet, we're gonna have to do a rethink. And it's really exciting. I know for us, one of the things that we've done recently is we've brought on board a team of engineers and architects to help us in this journey to what we're calling the next generation. We're actually referring to the project as Project Aurora because all of the Nordic locations where these next generation data centers will occur will be within the area where the Aurora is visible. So it's a good reminder that we are driving our technology for maximum cooling, maximum sustainability and maximum performance of the applications. We're pushing that further and further north. I just love that. And really it's a good lead into my next question. As we circle back to Verne Global specifically, how do these AI innovations fold into your company's sustainability initiatives as we look towards 2024? Kim, what are some of the key goals that you have on the horizon? Yeah, so the big sort of goal I have on my horizon is the EU energy efficiency directive. Of course, these are things that we've been kind of focusing on already. So we're more or less, you know, we're compliant from our own perspective. But there's a lot of stuff to work on together with the customers because this will also require from the customers to do a lot of reporting. So there's going to be a lot of stuff. You need to take all the data and understand how all the different parties use it. There was actually a good discussion at the event in Norway that you referenced. It was entitled, excuse me, who's carbon is it? Is it yours or mine? So the point was, you know, don't count it twice but do make sure that you count everything. So that's one of the main ideas. And then kind of take it further, you know, focus on squeezing out the rest, shall we say? We're already in a really good position with regard to being sustainable. But there's still stuff out there. Say diesel generators, even though they're used only rarely, they are, you know, one of those irritating things that people kind of like to point out. So moving first to HVO and then over time we've got a project going on with hydrogen, which we can talk about later on if we have some time. But these kind of efforts. So really getting to zero. Jamie, it's also really important to consider the importance of transparency. Vern Global has been a real proponent of not only reporting on scope one and scope two emissions but also the scope three emissions where, which are really, you know, a lot of times are frankly lost in the shuffle. If we think about the way the GHG protocol is structured it really tends to almost focus us towards how much are you, you know, are you directly emitting through your own emissions or how much if you're a data center how much are you emitting through, you know, through the use of electricity in your facilities. Those are the ones that we typically, as an industry, tend to focus on. But Vern believes that it's very important to be reporting on scope three. You know, what are the materials that are going into the construction of these facilities? But, you know, anyone who says it's immediately a green data center is a bit fooling themselves because look, we have to put steel. We have to put, you know, workforce in place. We have to put materials into these buildings. And if we're not thinking very carefully about how they're sourced trying to use local materials when we can using advanced, you know, concrete and steel that's reducing the amount of carbon that's going into it. If we're not holding ourselves accountable for these by tracking our scope three emissions we're not really doing a good service towards making a claim of being green. So we want to improve transparency, reduce greenwashing and work with our partners in the industry to push the data center industry forward. There's so much investment that's coming and we see announcements, at least I see them come across my emails every day about the literally billions of dollars that are going into data center investments. We really can be a beacon of hope for other industries if we continue to make advancements in the way that we're accounting for and ultimately reducing our carbon emissions. So well said, yes. Yes, that's what we believe in here at JSA what we're really proud to be able to offer that education collaboration that this is the content that I feel like our community is built around and can really make a meaningful difference. And I want to hear more about nuclear. Yes, definitely. Come on, give me a little teaser. So nuclear or did you mean that you're looking for something else? Maybe hydrogen was. Oh, hydrogen. So sorry, yeah. Yeah, I know we had a discussion on nuclear and hydrogen just recently in Santa Clara. I think nuclear is more popular in the US. I think there's room for nuclear globally, but for instance, Germany, they don't like nuclear. So it's a very difficult discussion even at the place where maybe it would not have the negative effects that it used to have. Right. But hydrogen, hydrogen is an interesting topic. It has a lot of challenges still both on the demand and the supply side as well as the infrastructure. So the way I see hydrogen is that it's a really good idea in the markets where there is already an infrastructure and where there's plenty of green energy available. Hydrogen is great in complimenting especially wind power and solar because of course they are intermittent. It does need to work on the technology still, but it has the opportunity to be very significant. So maybe Tate would like to take us into what we're doing in that space. Sure. Well, specifically in Iceland, my first visit that I ever took to Iceland in 2008, one of the things that I remember was I got to see my first hydrogen fueling station. What was pretty exciting over the last couple of years, I got to meet the people who were the first ones all the way back in 2002 that were bringing green hydrogen into reality in Iceland. So they've been thinking about this for a long time. We've actually recently partnered with Lansvirgen, the national energy company in Iceland and a company called Iceland New Energy and we partnered together to do a case study on how Virm Global's future of Dana Center energy backup can be based on hydrogen. Iceland specifically Lansvirgen is really interested in investing in the hydrogen economy and so they're going to be going through this buildup to purchase electrolysis machines and so that we can have a continuous supply of hydrogen first for ships and other transport vehicles such as roadworthy vehicles. But also anytime you want to create an ecosystem, you have to have off-takers like data centers that are going to be intermittent and have additional storage capacity. And so we've even gone so far as to start to look at areas near our campus where we can look at these secondary storage facilities. We're working with a number of vendors on how we're going to bring those first hydrogen-powered engine generators to our campus. So we're really excited about it. We think that it has a potential to really change the landscape about how data centers are again designed and conceived for the future. But one aspect, just tying it back to artificial intelligence and we've seen this also with some of our earlier customers who are focused on high-intensity computing like financial trading and also engineering associated with automotive. My background long way a time ago was actually doing engineering simulations on electro-myocardial tissue in the heart. And one of the things if an application is constructed well, you can have breakpoints along the way where if for whatever reason there is a failure or a shutdown of the infrastructure, it's very easy to go back and pick that simulation up. What's behind these generative AI, the maths behind them, these neurons and the training and the retraining that has to happen. A lot of that is actually very resilient to interruption. And so we actually believe that back to the question about how are we going to change the way data centers operate. We want those data centers to really be functioning directly with the application and meeting the needs of the application and no more. And so we want to have optionality. And so that's really what we're going to be building in this next generation design is optionality. Is it air cooling? Is it liquid cooling? Do we need generators? Let's make sure we have enough physical space to do it so that we can get the 25 to 40 years of investment that's required to build these substantial buildings. But let's make sure they're adaptable because the silicone is changing and turning on 18 month increments and far be it from us to predict what we're going to be having in our facilities 10 years from now. But it's going to be there and we better make buildings that are resilient and adaptable for the future. Optionality. I love it. Wow. So you guys have some really interesting insights and wisdom to share here, really enjoying this. Tell us about your career paths and backgrounds, how you got to where you are today and would love to hear more, Tate, maybe you could start. Sure. Well, I alluded to it in the past, but I actually started my computer career program in Fortran 77 and C. Because I guess I was really interested in the infrastructure, I became the system administrator for the Louisiana Supercomputer Center, which was not as impressive as it sounds. It was a Cray EL-94. I did get to go up to Minnesota and go through the Cray OS school for a week and did a lot of disc golfing on the side, great disc golf courses up there on your northern trip, Evan, you might want to pick some of that up as well. But I ended up really being able to pull this machine back, put it together, break the kernel, rebuild the kernel. That was a panic, quite literally. But it was only 26 gigs of RAM. And so it might have been really impressive for its day. It's not near the elements that it had. So when I completed my time in Louisiana, I decided that I was a little hot after spending a couple of years in New Orleans. So I actually drove to Alaska, wasn't sure what I was going to do. I got certified to be a wildlife firefighter. But I got a really good job at an engineering company and ended up, one thing led to another. I ended up back after three and a half years of dog mushing and this and that. Ended up back in the Washington, D.C. area and went to work. This was 98. I went to work for the company that was doing all the data center designs for America Online and later AboveNet. And so that was my birth into data centers at scale. Then I was VP of technology for a company called DuPont Fabros from the beginning, their origin in 2002, 2003. And went all the way through past their IPO and really got to thinking. I think it was really the birth of my kids that started making me think about, look, we're putting these huge power energy sucks all over the United States starting to look abroad and how we're doing it. And that's when I really started to become interested in what others, how others were thinking about that. And that's what led me to Vern Global with this company that didn't necessarily have a complete vision at the time, but it was born in Iceland on the sustainable energy track, just needed a vision in terms of how relevant data centers were gonna be in the future. So that's what got me at least here today. Incredible, incredible. Cam, what's your story? What's your background? So my background is more in telecoms and software. So I actually got my masters in management science, but then I started working also programming actually in C++ was my first job. So I was kind of curious to understand how software is actually built. I wanted to understand the whole sort of process around it. How can you kind of build all of this stuff together with other people to make it sort of function? So that's kind of what sucked me into this job. And then yeah, so in telecoms, we were building management systems that were very advanced. So it was the first time you could actually manage and test networks very easily from single locations. So we were really at the forefront of making stuff efficient. And later on I went on to focus on kind of product management in the software space, in mobile devices for instance. And what really fascinated me with software was basically that you can do anything with software, anything you dream of, but you can't do everything. So you have to kind of focus the resources if you will. So this kind of challenge of doing the most optimal stuff, that's what was always driving me. So yeah, then at one of these jobs, I happened to know the founder of this Finnish company and got sucked into the board. And after a while, full-time and here we are, still thinking about how to optimize stuff and how to do things better and so on. So that's my story. I love that, I love that. And for sure, you guys are such innovators. I mean, this is the theme of us talking today. How you guys are really building better mousetraps, optimizing for resources as you mentioned. How do you foster this culture of innovation? It's so critical today. So what do you do to encourage innovation even among your team? Kim, you want to start? So I think that when people first work hard and then when they kind of take some time to relax and enjoy themselves and kind of like doing stuff, thinking about stuff together, that's when innovation happens. So you need to kind of build a culture where you kind of get all these things and then you have to also kind of be able to extract that and utilize whatever comes out of it. So as Ed, I wish America would take more of a lesson there. Jamie, I was going to say for your American audience, having worked in a Nordic culture for the last decade and a half, there's one thing about the Nordic summers and the Nordic holidays. People do really come back and big rated in a way that you just don't get on a three-day holiday when you're on the phone most of the time. But beyond that, there's an interesting thing for managers to consider. And that's when somebody can take and they should take off four weeks continuously, you have to have resiliency within your organization. You can't be dependent on any one person. And that's also a big part of facilitating innovation. As for me and as a manager, I'm going to say something that's even a challenge for me. Sometimes the manager just has to shut up and listen to what others are saying. And I think for me, facilitating an area of innovation is one where when you go into a meeting or you go into a brainstorming session, no one has a fear that it's going to be a monologue of one person trying to be the best. In this case, less is more, right? I mean, go in with an attitude of I want to listen and learn as opposed to I want to talk and teach. I love that. Innovative, definitely. All right, Evan, rapid fire section. What do you think? You game? Yeah, let's do it. Let's try to embarrass Tate and Kim with some very odd. No, we'll stick to the script. We'll be very fine. We won't ask you any embarrassing questions. Let's take a lightweight start. We'll work our way up to the embarrassing questions. Favorite sport, Tate. Favorite sport. Well, I played rugby, but my favorite sports experience recently was being with 75,000 fans at the Matilda's game, watching them beat Denmark, unfortunately. Sorry to the Nordic folks, but being in the Sydney Stadium with 75,000 people cheering on women's football was amazing. So what an experience. Great. And Kim, anything exotic in Finland you can point to? Maybe nontraditional sports or sports league? Not so exotic for me. I think ice hockey is definitely the number one. So yeah, last year, unfortunately, we didn't win, but last time with the Olympics, we also got the world championship. So that was a first for us. Yes, I'll dare you. But yes, that was very, very nice. Come to Boston and Jamie and I'll take you to a Bruins game. That'll be nice right now. Definitely. I look very much forward to that. All right, this question sort of echoes back to my last about innovation, but piece of career advice, Kim? For me, it's, you know, do what you love. And what I sometimes people say of people who are successful that they were lucky. In my opinion, you have to be lucky to be successful, but you also have to earn that luck. Yeah, we call it grit and grace here. Tape. Focus on the questions. If we knew the right questions, we probably already have the answers. I think sometimes we tend to ask the wrong questions. So ask better questions. And Evan, the pressure's now on you to ask a better question. I have no better questions. I'm all out of questions. I got to ask chat TPD. Chat TPD, please. No, hobbies, Tate, any interesting hobbies you can. Yeah, fermentation I guess would be my most inch. I just finished a batch. The alcohol was super ready or? No, actually more food-based. So I just got some kombucha in the basement. I just finished a four-week sauerkraut. It's kimchi's next. So I soured a bread, whatever. Your gut health must be extraordinary. I know. Hopefully. I need this in my life. Kim, fermenting? Kim, what about you? No, not fermenting for me. Not so much, at least, anymore. I used to do the alcohol variety when I was younger, but all out of that. For me, number one hobby is boating. So when you do come, you must go to the archipelago. So with the archipelago in southwest Finland, it has tens of thousands of islands. So getting on a boat and hopping between those, seeing the different places, it's completely fantastic. The best time, of course, is not winter. It's in the summer where it's really light, really long. Yeah, that's on my bucket list for sure. Talking bucket lists, very places to travel. Would that be the same answer for you, Kim? So on the bucket list to travel, I think, well, I've been to Iceland many times, but there's lots of stuff there still to see. Iceland is really fantastic. I mean, even if you just go to Reykjavík, there's a lot of stuff around there, really amazing. And then traveling across the whole island. And we should say it'll be the home for Datacloud ESG 2024. So if ever there's a reason to travel, do it on your work credit card, right? Oops, did I say that? Yeah, I'll spend a week in there. Jake, what do you think? Well, I love traveling to Iceland. I mean, if you asked me my favorite place to travel, definitely that. From a bucket list standpoint, though, I really enjoyed Finland. The saunas and jumping into an ice cold hole in the ice where they've cut it out in the lake. I've enjoyed that quite a bit. So maybe Lapland is in my future. Love that. And music tastes. I don't know. Let's talk about music. A big bluegrass fan. What's the equivalent of bluegrass in Northern Europe? Like what's bluegrass? Quick, chat GPT. What's your favorite music? Kim, you're going to have to answer on the bluegrass for Finland. I can't answer that one. There's a lot of local music, certainly, but it's not bluegrass. Heavy metal, I think. I think you're right. Heavy metal is big. Yeah, actually, I do enjoy heavy metal. But lately, I've begun to enjoy more of the Latin heavy metal. So I like Latin music and also their heavy metal. Got a good vision right now of Kim driving his boat, listen to Latin heavy metal. I'm going to Google that right now. I have no idea what that sounds like. So I'm intrigued. Well, I was definitely a metalhead growing up. But I think these days, I'm all about artificial intelligence. So I kind of let Spotify, let me take me, whatever's on my Discover Weekly, it's just amazing to me over the last five or 10 years that I've been filling that in, that you can just get guided by these simple algorithms into new things that you never would have discovered before. And as long as you're open-minded about it, then I think that's an area where I think AI is interesting. It allows us to be creative if we take the opportunity. I found a AI-generated talk show on Spotify. And it's hilarious. It's just AI voices talking to each other. And you would not believe what they come up with. It is all put in the show notes. And it's worth listening to. It's scary. All right, my last, last one, my last question, I promise, and then you guys are off the hot seats. But I got to end with this being a foodie, Italian American. So I'm going to ask, what's your favorite food, Kim? I was considering saying the Icelandic fermented shark, but it's actually not my favorite. It's interesting, yeah. Yeah, I only had it twice. It is an acquired taste. For me, definitely it's the French and Italian cuisine. That's number one for me. I like that answer. Tate, are you a sushi guy? I actually like vegetables. I mean, and I kind of, I moved in the direction of vegetables a year and a half, two years ago. And I feel like the whole process of changing the way I taste flavors led up to this one restaurant, which I'd encourage anyone who's got, whether they're vegan, vegetarian or not. It's a place right in Shortwich, London called Oliveira Kitchen. And that one meal that I had there, I think that my entire journey towards vegetables was leading up to that. It was astounding. For example, a caviar made out of seagrasses that looked like caviar and tasted like caviar. It was just unbelievable. So I highly recommend it. But I am making it. That's another bucket list item here. Thank you. I love that. I love that. Always so much to learn. That was awesome, guys. I learned so much and I would just add, I mean, it's great to see a company like Verne combining innovation goals with sustainability. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary, you guys are leading from the front on both topics. So congratulations. Thank you so much for joining us. We so appreciated your insight, your personalities, your sense of humor. We got to really see a wonderful side of the leaders of Verne Global. Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you. All right, guys. If you enjoyed today's Data Movers podcast as much as we did, go ahead and check us out at jsa.net slash podcast for this and upcoming episodes releasing every other week. And follow us on Twitter, X, Faiscato, and Evan Kerstel, where we'll be sure to engage and reply to any comments. And thanks for watching, everyone. Always. Thank you, guys, and happy networking.