 Hello and welcome to the Arts Link Assembly. I'm Simon Dav, I'm the Executive Director of CEC Arts Link. And this is the beginning of week two of our five week virtual assembly this year, bringing together artists and arts organizations to discuss the role of artists and art practice in building and maintaining civil society and achieving social justice. Today and tomorrow we're going to focus on Beirut, a city that was completely devastated by the explosion on August the 4th. Tomorrow curator Amanda Abi Khalil will be in conversation with visual artists and arts organizations. But today, I'm very happy to welcome a longtime friend and colleague, Omar Rajay. Omar is a choreographer, dancer, and tireless organizer, setting up the amongst many other things the Lebanese contemporary dance platform, the Arab dance platform, and many other initiatives as well as building spaces in the city to present live arts. So today, Omar and his panel will really focus on the relationship between live arts and how artists and arts organizations are looking to rebuild after the explosion. Omar. Hello Simon. Thank you for the invitation. It's a real pleasure to be with you here on this assembly. And I would like to actually invite the three artists that I was happy that we could share this conversation together. So, Mia Habis, Alexander Polykevic, and Hatim Imam. I'm really happy that you could join me on this in this conversation. And maybe we could start quickly with introducing yourself briefly as well. Mia. Yes, sure. I'm Mia Habis. I'm a dancer and co-artistic director of Makamat and BIPOD, Beirut International Platform of Dance. The company is initially based in Beirut. My name is Hatim Imam. Sorry, go ahead Alex. My name is Alex. I'm a dancer and a choreographer, and I'm happy to be here. My name is Hatim Imam. I'm a graphic designer, a publisher, and a visual artist. And thank you Omar for the invitation and Simon as well. Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you. This is, I'm sure this is a very brief introduction of what you do in Beirut and your contribution also to the cultural scene in Beirut. And that's why actually I would like to start with imagining that we are sitting in a cafe in Beirut. Yes, I miss it. Honestly, I miss it a lot. And discussing things. Of course we can dream, joke, waste time, and at some point we get excited about ideas that we want to implement. I guess we strongly believe in what we were and still doing and I hope we can still dream of a different future. We, not one that is full of death and destruction, but one full of life, of intimacy, of gatherings, of parties, a lot of parties. Personally for me this roller coaster we have lived through that started with the first dismantling of Siten Beirut in August 2019. Then the political and economic collapse in Lebanon, leaving the country also in December, followed by the COVID-19 global crisis and finally the huge explosion, the devastating explosion also that destroyed half of the city, killing and injuring thousands. All of these incidents, together with news of unrest, demonstrations, unfortunate accidents, and inequality all over the world, proposes many questions about our own architecture as humans in crisis, maybe our thoughts and behavior, reflections of reality and of a reality that is destroyed as well. We could be complaining on many things and we have the full right to complain about everything. However, meanwhile we have to check, test or question if we are able to continue and how. So, I would like to start with Alex. Alex you were arrested during the demonstrations. Your house is destroyed in the explosion. You were asked to be in front of a military judge or court as an artist recently. How do you navigate with this? Honestly, I think at some point I am in denial because it's just too much to handle. But I chose to face it and honestly, the best thing I was able to do is to work on my new creation, is to just forget myself in the process of creating a new piece. I'm a bit in denial about everything but I think it's a defense mechanism in order to be able to continue. There's nothing that helps us to get going. So, we need to find a strength somewhere and a force to be able to just stay on the road, stay focused and it is not a simple deal. Yes, I totally understand but I'm curious actually to know, how do you go on with your day? If we want to, what happens in a normal day? Are you in the city? I know that you go outside. I'm sorry if it's up to you to tell us how much. My days are honestly, it's reconstruction. It's just caring for my house, dealing with people that are fixing my house up. So, it's just building back, building again. But I ran away from all this. When I can, I run away from all this and I go up to the mountain where I am now. And just to bask in nature, to reconnect to something more peaceful and beautiful and that gives me strength and centers me. So, it's really a long, I can have days of long hours of hiking, swimming in the river. I try to do things that gives me power, strength and peace because we need it, we need it and we have a lot of beauty in our country. So, I prefer to connect to what's really the core essence of our country that makes us love it and even you in France. I know how much you suffer from being outside and this is what you love about the country. Not the politics, not all the what we are living through, but we know that we connect to a certain image of Lebanon that a lot don't know outside because they only know about the explosion war. And but we do have a lot that this country can give us and this is what I connect to. For sure. Yes, definitely definitely I like for me also even with this situation at the moment I can imagine even before the explosion. When we started working in when I started the company in 2002, even with the festival with bipod and trying thinking of how we could like build this grow more regionally internationally create more exchanges. I was also at the same time I was concerned with with building this infrastructure for the dancing be a framework or a strategy in which we could, we could grow individually and collectively. And it's it was already the situation was always difficult it was always uneasy having to deal with the death ministry of culture with a corrupted system navigating through things. I can imagine even even now with with with all this, like what I said roller coaster this year. How is the situation so I maybe I could also we can maybe happen you can join us. Do you feel from your perspective because also I know that you're through the true suffer through journal suffer through you and you're as a curator also do you feel there is like are we. How are we dealing with these strategies to create a framework to hold our work together. How can we do that to secure what we have achieved to a certain extent, and maybe to to think of how are we able to continue creating. I mean it's, it's, you know, like it's, you know what when people are in a situation of, you know, like some sort of disaster or, you know, like under this kind of like insane amount of violence. The first thing that you do, you know, like as Alex said is, you know, like it's the immediate reaction is to start rebuilding, or start working on new things. And this is something that, you know, like we have learned, you know, like we've seen this, you know, like from the generation of our parents as well, you know, like we know that if there's an explosion or there's, you know, like some kind of destruction. Within minutes, you start people, you know, you start seeing people clearing up the rubble, and you know, like securing everything in place and making sure that, you know, like that they could continue to live, you know, like, and to get back to that sense of safety. I think that this is something that, you know, like is not unique about, about the Lebanese, because I mean like we hear a lot of this kind of slogan of, you know, like the resilience of the Lebanese people I don't think that this is, I think that it's a dangerous claim to pose. And I think that this is something that any, any person under under this kind of distress would, would, you know, like resort to the same kind of action. So, I mean, for us, of course, you know, like our studio got destroyed. And, you know, like the next day we were there, starting to clear things and we moved, you know, like the essential things and, you know, within I think I would say maybe a week or 10 days, we were almost like back at work somehow. And again, it's not something to be, to be very happy about because right now, you know, like I was sitting today with Lynn, who works with us and she, you know, like now we're feeling, you know, like all of the, maybe the anguish that kind of got displaced. We went today to the studio, to the old studio, because, you know, we just still have some stuff there. And it was quite difficult to go back to walk back into a space where you spent in like 80 years building something. And, you know, now you see it not only destroyed but also like the layers of dust on it and, you know, like things are starting to literally deteriorate. So, yeah, I guess I mean like we're just, we're all, you know, everyone I know is in either, you know, like this kind of reconstruction, refixing, rebuilding phase or, you know, they're making plans for the exit of the country, unfortunately. Yes, I can imagine things maybe also Mia, you can join us with what happened was saying is you lived in Beirut, you worked in Beirut, you understand the situation, you created or you worked, you programmed the festival, you supported artists, you organized some training, some workshops, thought of sustainability and strategies, and like for example today, you're looking at this from the outside. What does it mean for you when you also when you hear Hatim saying this, do you feel privileged in a sense, how do you look at the situation in Beirut, and how do you, how do you feel maybe you can get involved. So it feels like you are in between two worlds and you already know very well what he's talking about this anxiety, this anguish, the resilience but at the same time with time. At some point you start feeling there is something that is disappearing and you need to get hold of. This is one and at the same time you're looking at this from the outside. How do you feel you can get involved today in Beirut? I'm not sure that I'm looking at things from the outside honestly. I don't think when you have been growing up in certain situations and in my case it was in Lebanon, that you ever not carry or stop carrying what you've learned or how you've been formed to face life, to face difficulties, obstacles. So of course physically I'm further away and on a personal level maybe I can miss things, but I think that it's the same priorities. It's the same way of looking at things. I don't believe that because physically I'm now in France that things should be worked on differently. Of course maybe you are part of another context of another system, but your values are the same that the values that have been carrying in your work and through years and time and that you've been fighting for are the same. And I think that actually I want just to make a point about something is that we left maybe also to better serve our purposes because the situation in Lebanon was becoming extremely, was going to reverse on us as organizers, as artists. And it would have been impossible actually in the case of Makhamat, in the case of BIPOD, in the case of Makhamat as a company also and me as a dancer. It would have been very difficult to continue serving. So actually I think I left to better serve, to better continue serving the same purposes. And I think my relationship to the projects that we've been developing through Makhamat and BIPOD and everything in Lebanon will continue. I mean, I hope now we have even worse situation with what's happening in Lebanon, of course, it has always been difficult, but now it's even more difficult. But it's, it's I think the occasion to even more fight for the things that we've been fighting for. So yes, actually, this is where we have to, this is we have to keep the priorities in mind. And remember why we're doing the things that we're doing. So yes, physically here or there, same fight, same challenges, same priorities. And, you know, yes, for sure, of course, I can, I can hear you very well. And I think also maybe we could, at the same time with this, maybe probably Alex, Hatim, you have some ideas also to mention. If just please let me know and we can make it a more dynamic conversation rather than me feeling like moderating things. But I could, I could go on, I could continue because I would like to bring here a project that we started after we left Beirut also with the with the COVID that happened with with the cancellations with everything canceled. Of course, there is this idea of the explosion in Beirut that happened after, but even, like I said, for us, there was the cancellation of a cultural center already. We felt also as if we, we have to make this decision of leaving the country. And when, when the COVID started, we started with the cancellation, we thought how, how we can contribute to this. And maybe this is also the way of thinking in terms of resilience. It's strange, but maybe we are kind of experts in crisis, which is not a very good thing. But we, we, we thought of a project, which now we call sitan.live, which is to create a digital performance venue. If we're not able to implement sitan beirut physically in Beirut, then we, we thought we can go online, we can go with this project globally. At the moment we're in the, like the process we already started in March, so it took a lot of time working on this with international partners as well. And hopefully we will be able to open or launch this project end of November. And the idea of sitan beirut is to emphasize these feelings of, of course it's online, but we want to emphasize the idea of the liveness, the idea of, of live streaming in real time, like what is happening now. At the same time, to create, to think of culture in a different way, to think, and that's why maybe Mia I asked you this question I wanted to touch on how do we look to each others. Maybe we have the same context to a certain extent, but also at the same time, how much we're aware of what is happening, how much we're concerned of what is going on in culture. Or socially that could be reflected on culture or vice versa in other places in the world. So with sitan.live this is what we're attempting to do, to think culturally maybe with the difficulties that we're facing with COVID with the explosion specifically in Beirut, with difficulties in other places of the world, we can rethink culture, we can rethink this kind of inherited cultural system that we just accepted and we went through to think of it and to separate maybe between the industry and the values that we that drew us into into what we do. And there is one important direction in sitan.live is and and this is comes from sitan Beirut. We would like to focus on projects that were not able to be realized in their cultural context. Yes, go ahead, Alex, of course, yes. For me, sitan.live is an absolute necessity and an urgency in the field in Lebanon for now because definitely we are facing a very tough situation but this is worldwide, noting that our incapacity to fill theaters and to have a full house and this is this is very sad for me. And it's almost it's almost political now to go on stage. I'm not really rethinking our performance space, but this definitely opens so much for the scene that you have years and years fought for and tried the best you could with residencies outside Beirut and spaces that several spaces that you didn't talk about. But I think we live in a country that not everybody is prone to get connected at a screen because to see a performance, because we still have this old school way of seeing things and we don't you know very well that we don't have a very good connection in this country. And it's very important in order to showcase online. It is definitely very important and I think sitan.live is an absolute necessity and I say it a second time. But I think it would definitely serve more for the to for us to reach a wider audience, but I am very engaged in getting back to the stage trying this sensation inside a theater, because I you know as much as me and Mia or Hatem how I think everybody is tired to stay at home and look at the screen. I am fighting in order to get back to imagine I called a theater last week in order to book. Like they didn't even. They don't know if they can they don't know how much can we rent. It's so difficult now even more with the with the economic economic crisis and the covid crisis, the political crisis. We don't know what to do anymore so definitely sitan live as a solution for this very sad reality are living. But I think I'd be, I would love to collaborate on this in a theater going live this is I think for me the best form that can be because hearing the applause hearing people hearing the breath of the of the public and the cheers at the end are definitely what you say a motor motor, a drive a possibility for us to hook on a certain collective energy and keep on going. I this trend of staying in front of the cameras in order to perform is interesting to to think about to test and to try to do something, but it's not we shouldn't leave the theaters, we shouldn't let course. For sure for sure Alex, it's, I mean I want to continue touring I want to meet people I want to connect with people. I want to be in theaters where I can also smell the spaces I can touch the place the sometimes it could be sometimes emotional but why not this is something also we we felt it. What we're talking about is definitely not, not in opposition, not to put things on in opposition when we talk digital, and I can also hear the, the difficulties in in Beirut in terms of internet. Of course there's possibilities what we need to probably for us this digital project is not to say okay we go digital we don't want to go like it doesn't exist. There is a slogan that we use for this digital is like local cities global bodies and to really go from the locality from this the situation from the liveness into more like global. The values are what's important and we don't have to put things together, but when you were when you were talking actually I was thinking of also the cultural scene in Beirut the theaters in Beirut. It's totally shut down and not only from March but even since October 2019 with the explosion probably even the the the explosion with the cover this the artist they stopped the touring they're not able to because I know how how much the scene in Beirut is dynamic how much the artists are also connected internationally, and this is what kept us all like to sustaining what we have and doing the work, but it's what is it like. I'm sorry I'm cutting you but I went in on a small tour to check on theaters, and I was shocked but what I saw, actually, because we should tell the people that, unfortunately, having a war culture, we have all our theaters to minus two, like we don't have any theater that is like it's underground. Absolutely, Sitenbeirut was one of the very this only space that where we can be on the ground floor. So even on on underground theaters have a huge losses in material the explosion was a huge impact on the theaters and they need to be built plus all what they are facing already without of course public funding because there's no public funding for theaters as eventually some events that we artists do for free in order to to fund raise for the theater in order to have a theater that is still functioning. And also another problem that people don't know outside is that when we say theaters in Lebanon it's not what everybody might think that a theater is was an art director that has a program or so our theaters we rent them for doing whatever we want to do it's they are not production houses they don't produce they don't program it's more like space that the artists would rent and this is like of course this is not easy. And it's the same probably for the other cultural venues or galleries or that where Mia you want to say something. I don't want to interrupt I just but this is why like the idea of the second what happened was saying like and also like the idea of. Okay, so now we're in this situation. Okay, everything is destroyed already the situation before wasn't glorious. It's extremely hard. And now it's even worse. So what becomes interesting now it's like the people who immediately go and start building again and the survival thing that makes you, you know, go further not stop not being a victim in this. Also, and and continue what you're doing and continue fighting. So this is why now that everything is destroyed and now that on top of it we have like a massive pandemic that even is making things worse. What do we do. So this is why I want to to also like for for for me the priority is to think of this is really like it's like I have an example of someone I know the house was totally destroyed, and the same like after one hour, the person was already cleaning and talking to the to the guys to repair the windows and so the problem is that in Lebanon we did we never had the luxury of time we never had the luxury of money. So we formed to react, but react not as reaction but to to act to act quickly and and and to set immediately the next priorities. So what are the priorities what do we do so also in response to to what Alex was was saying I absolutely understand like this digital thing and maybe this is not ideal, but it's also good that we think the digital in order to because either or not. There are other solutions which is to reduce the audience for example in the theaters or, but then what other solutions do we have, you know, and to make it interesting maybe we can go to this place, which is that we call digital not in a position but to first frame like to frame it as a cultural space online and not having this open like Instagram Facebook where the artistic values can sometimes be lost. So to maybe create a frame, maybe like not exclude audience but on the contrary to include more audience like at the time where but where frontiers and and borders are closing and closing. There's a danger in sliding into very, I don't know, something really frightening. So, so we have I think it's important to to think well that the digital and to take all the advantages possible that that we can, and to make it a better place, if you want for for artists so place that is protected for example that is framed that respect the artistic work. Yeah. Yes. And actually to, while you were talking I was thinking, you know what worries me most is, of course, this the situation is happening at the moment, maybe we're all focused how what can we do now what we can do. What I'm what scares me is, how is the situation in five years and 10 years. And this is for me where is the danger, because this is the moment, maybe we can react to certain things although the cultural I could say the cultural scene in Beirut is is nearly dead to a certain extent. A lot of galleries, theaters, spaces are destroyed. On top of that, the artists themselves. I don't know, like, it's how much, how much the artists are able to involve themselves and create and think of this. Hatem, maybe you want to say something. Yeah, I just wanted to I mean like we're we're painting a very kind of like grim landscape of the cultural scene in Beirut. And of course I mean like these difficulties and all of the problems that we're facing and all of the catastrophes that we're living are obviously very real. But at the same time I wouldn't be so hasty to jump into saying, you know, like that that the cultural scene is dead. I know I know that's not necessarily what you what you're what you're trying to imply. What I want to say is that basically there, you know, like with all of this destruction that is also still something that is very essential and very important that's coming out. And it's, you know, like, you can see it in so many different guys is I wanted to say earlier that, you know, like the, you know, like when when Alex goes, you know, like is summoned by the police by the by the state to be questioned, you know, like when people go and stand in front of the police station in solidarity. And when you have, you know, an uprising that has, you know, like, even though in the in the big terms, you know, like this uprising has failed to topple the state and the regime. I mean, obviously, until today, you know, like one year after the after the uprising, we are still under the same murderous and thieving rulers, but still there is something that has been broken definitely in the streets of Beirut. In a sense, for me, this is also quite, you know, like the streets in themselves turned into a stage somehow. And I mean, I'm sure that Alex can also attest to that and perhaps, you know, could add a little bit more to this to this thought. But I mean, like there is something that is very important that happened. I mean, I feel like it was, you know, like the Lebanese people have been living in a coma since 1990. And not until now did they somewhat, you know, like wake up or partially wake up from from this coma. And instead of only just reacting to the things that are being thrown at them, you know, they finally took the stage. They finally said, you know, like, we're going to actually, you know, come and, you know, change the game or say something different and open up the possibilities of something that is that is that is, you know, going to going to change in this country. And even though, you know, like right now we are living in a really, really dark time. I mean, I personally am, you know, like bidding farewell to friends and family, you know, like every week. So, you know, like I know that that things are quite devastating and they're going to they're going to continue to be difficult. But still, you know, like I cannot help but, you know, like still see the beauty of this kind of like something that is coming out of all of this destruction. I mean, this is something that you also see in the solidarity of people right after the explosion, you know, like we at one moment, Maya, my work partner and I went to the office. You know, just a few days after the explosion and we were just like literally sitting in the rubble and not knowing where to start. When, you know, like a group of like three, three young girls come in with with brooms and I mean, I'm sure you've heard all of these stories. But it was, it was, you know, like we were completely overwhelmed by this because, you know, like in 10 minutes, there were like 20 young men and women, you know, like clearing all of the rubble in the studio and you know, like cleaning everything up and taking such good care and you know, like trying to bring things back, you know. And this sense of solidarity that has, that has, you know, like for me, perhaps started one year ago, you know, with the beginning of the uprising where, you know, like all of the differences and what not have kind of like dissolved. But so on one hand, there is all of the sense of solidarity and, you know, like a sense of belonging to something that is bigger than just, you know, like these big national ideas or national themes. On top of that, even the cultural institution, like even if we're thinking about the cultural sector, the cultural institution in and of itself is being put to put to question, you know, like we know that institutions have started asking themselves, what are we doing, you know, like is like we know that now because of the pandemic and because of the economic crisis, people are not being able to afford if you want, you know, like the normal or typical or whatever little off, you know, like the cultural production that was happening in Beirut. But, but now, you know, people are being forced to think outside of these norms or outside of these frameworks that are in so many ways, you know, like shackling maybe the artists or shackling the production of art. And this is where I feel like there's, there's, you know, people are starting to think of alternatives of how to produce culture outside, you know, like of either the institution or the gallery or the theater or or or. And I think that this for me is something, you know, like, that is very exciting, in fact, and, you know, like, quite heartwarming. Yeah. I want to because I'm so happy that happened talked about this because as you know me all I'm an extremely positive, all the time, almost delusional person. But what is what we saw on the streets what happened. Since the 17th of October was the uprising to the post blast. The solidarity hadn't talked very well about it I'm going to say something about the solidarity we saw and on the streets and when people would be in in police posts. For me it was such an honor and such defiance. When they asked me in the police station what do you do and I said to them I'm a dancer. You would I would have never in my life there to say to the police I'm a dancer, and they didn't even dare to say anything wrong, because there was 300 person outside screaming. There's the fear has been broken. And as we all know fear is very effective and was the 17th of October uprising there's something that has been broken. And honestly also I defied the military court was a lot of solidarity from all of you guys, when I had to be to be to go there. And I did a huge solidarity campaign that happened and at 7am they told me to say it was cancelled. So we can turn things like yes there is a lot of sadness that there's a lot of things that a lot of blackness a lot of horrible things that happened to us. There is not the resilience that I would say defiance that is born and we we are very proud of it and taken it. I think we will never go back to what was before. There is something that is going to build up and accumulate with time, and there is a political system that is going to end, and we are going to end it and the generations after us are going to are extremely open and see what is happening and they are understanding the situation. And I think the new generations of artists of young artists of young activists that are now on the ground and lived what what we all live together during those last months. I think this is a huge experience for them that will be a huge that will have a huge impact on their lives, on their careers, and will be extremely inspiring in order to defy this static code that has been here since the end of the Civil War. Yes, I in a sense I definitely I totally agree with you. I always I also believe that accidents are new departures. It's like I like the sentence in one of Orhan Pamuk's novels. But what I'm for me it's it's a bit scary when also we we go with these issues of resilience. I totally understand. I love these moments of solidarity of defiance like you said Alex. We definitely need the stronger solidarity we need this wall of fear to break to change and it happened. It happened already because I also believe 17th of October 2019. We went into another phase in Lebanon and this is extremely important. However, it is it's a long way and this is what is what I think about this is what I am concerned a lot about these moments of solidarity are extremely important but how can we take these moments and think about it in the long run. That's why I say I'm worried about what's going to happen in five years and 10 years. I'm sure I'm confident also that there will be hat in what you mentioned about alternatives. I think we all of us, we were working with this kind of mentality for alternative and probably a younger generation or even as we'll continue working with alternatives in Beirut. However, the situation we need to think of the long run. When I said the cultural scene is dead. I meant that it's, it is an extremely difficult situation. I mean look at the world, look at Europe. Let's take Europe. Let's take France today only with the COVID struggling with the COVID 19. It's already a mess. It's already chaos everywhere in the world with culture. So the situation in Beirut is difficult. And we don't want to say it's dead there is no culture there will be alternative for sure. But also we need to be realistic and see how can we build on this. How can we open these possibilities, these channels, these young artists, let's say these young initiatives. If or the existing initiative. How can they sustain in this situation because you said you mentioned every week you're saying a goodbye to friends with me and Mia we are already in France although we're we feel committed we feel connected we feel but still there is a certain reality that is happening how much of these cultural centers. There was of course a minimal support. Thanks to a bit of funding some grants some institutions that are already existing in Beirut but the state is in a coma is deaf it doesn't is not there. This is the big question for me and this is the scary moment is how can we like even when you think of culture today how can you relate to the audience with like where are the people are they also in this kind of talking last week I was talking with a friend about the audience and and with bipod and how the audience actually pushed us into our program because the audience they were kind of pushing us to go further and further and not accept things as as they are so this is maybe what what we need to think about also and think about realistically. Building on beautiful moments strong moments like the ones you mentioned, but extremely important to think in the long run, how can they sustain themselves how can they continue building and not only continue a building but also being able to to progress being able to. I don't want to use the word educate but being able to to develop to grow a grow in the sense in depth also in terms of what they do artistically culturally and socially in relation to the to the culture and social environment. No, you use the right word and I think no education is very important, and we are working in the field of contemporary art, and we need to educate a little bit because performances are still they don't have the tools to understand contemporary dance. We need to, in a way, democratize the ways one how to see the how to see a performance, and I think sit down live is a very good first solution for that and that's in that way, in order to say okay, let's try to find new ways and I think by starting to have. I think it's going to be difficult at the beginning to start to perform online for for Lebanese audiences. But I think the more we will do it. The more people will get the idea and will be more accommodated to know that there is that our performances that are going live, not recorded but live doing the performance live time very important. Yeah, it doesn't replace what's important is to think of expanding rather than going from one thing to another. Yeah, I'd like to give an example of a project that started during the lockdown of the pandemic. And I think, you know, like, for me, I like to say that, you know, like this is the project that I never thought that I was missing, and but now I cannot live without. So, I mean it's a radio, it's a radio project so radio, it's a project that started in, in Bethlehem in Bethlehem in Palestine by a group of friends who, you know, like really had just, you know, like they love music and they started this thing online. And what this platform has created today is something that is really like unbelievable, the fact that you have programming of DJs, or you know sometimes talk shows and sometimes you know like conversations and sometimes music programming and whatnot. And it brought together a network of people that didn't know each other necessarily across the Arab world and even beyond that, of course. And it's fascinating because you're all of a sudden, you know, like, I remembered what radio is because I mean like I grew up here, you know, like all of you know we know in Lebanon we have all of these commercial radius that you barely can listen to nothing that you can listen to. And you have this, this idea where there's there's you know on your computer you have someone playing music for one hour. And then there's live comments and people starting to have conversations and making new friendships and connections and sharing music and talking about this and well what's this reference and I don't know what. And now I have you know programs that I follow every week that I have to listen to these programs and whatnot. And again, you know, like this this idea of like the alternative platforms. It's not a question, you know, like, you know, like some nights it's almost like, I feel like I'm literally clubbing I'm in a club with people who are you know like in Palestine and in Jordan and in Berlin and I don't know where. But this sense, you know, like that that obviously we lost because of the pandemic and because of the distancing and and and is could be could be somehow recuperated or translated into other things and this is where you know like the digital at the end of the day you know like digital platforms are tools. So I mean obviously, as you said, they will never or they shouldn't intend to replace you know like live performances or whatnot or even you know like galleries. You know, like seeing seeing visual arts and all of that. But the idea is that we could use these tools and alternative ways and be able to connect with people that even on an actual stage would not have been you would not have been able to reach perhaps. And so again, these these possibilities, especially you know like with younger generations who are more and more connected and versatile in this language. There's a lot of potential for for for exciting things to happen. I know I'm like sounding like the very optimistic guy here in the group with. I actually had them me too I find it like extremely exciting at some point once I could calm down on a little bit on the situation I started seeing infinite possibilities and it's really great. Of course it's a new phase for for a lot of art makers and even for organizations. And look at us we're meeting on zoom I mean the zoom thing of course you get tired of it of course it's special but but I kind of like it because I connect I mean I'm so happy to be able to talk to you guys, rather than not talking to you so this is what I was saying in the beginning also like to take the advantages and always try to see the bright side of things, but also I want to come back to the what I was asking initially about what so how can we do it. What maybe are the things that we can set to go further. And I think the fact to adapt first is very important we need to adapt. We need to be very careful of the needs and things that maybe didn't work before just to listen to the needs the things that we need to date. And probably the fact that what you're saying about theaters had them I love because things don't necessarily happen in theaters and studios. I mean, I'm not trying. I'm going to be I have to be very careful with what I'm saying because I love theaters and I grew up in theaters. But this is not like the transmission can also happen in other places. It doesn't have to be in a theater doesn't it can be anywhere. So of course, the possibilities are much, maybe our opening today. And also if we like I know it's difficult to set priorities, because we need to think emergency we need to think short term what do we do now. But in Lebanon, things are like extremely difficult not only in Lebanon for us. We're like in a survival mode. How are we going to continue next month. This is the also the problem. But I think if we, if we set the priorities on a short term and look at the long term it's maybe the best way to navigate also because at some point we're going to arrive in one year and we're going to arrive in two years. And I think there's a very crucial question which is, how do we continue these how do we transmit how do we continue this transmission. We cannot wait and let things happen we need to be active we need we need to like for example for for practices now. We have to continue transmitting classes our fear as my come out, for example, how many were asking in the beginning. How are we going to like, where are they going to be formed how are we going to generate new, how are we going to create new generations of dancers, for example. What kind of formation are we going to give them. You know, and the audience the same I mean we have we have to be able to engage the new generation we have to be to think of the audience. Also, because I really think that the audience can be a really an active element in the in our resistance towards culture. I want to say actually something from like all of this. It seems, for sure, there are always alternatives, different tools, what the core issue is what we're looking for is what are we saying, or what do we want to say, what is the cause here, what is, what is the drive or the motivation for culture. Because this is the core issue for me. And this is maybe the essence of why we used to go to theater why we used to do project. So when we think of the values when we think of the essence and most importantly when we think of this drive. What do we want to say what is what is this strong thing that that pushes us to say things. Then, of course, things happen we connect in different ways we we culture is not the box that if you go to the theater then you get culture if you don't go to the theater then you're not culture. It's more about value also. It's, and how do we deal with this value. The, the, the radio project example had him is wonderful. And it's, it is really a beautiful project. And I'm sure there will be a lot of other projects, whether we're talking about digital or other ways of tools, alternative possibilities alternative structures. It is more also dealing with these tools as an artistic medium, the digital needs to be an artistic medium it's not only a screen. It's this interaction that you let you explain for example in the radio project is what really gives it its strength what gives it its presence its value. And probably this is where we, we need to to think about things and to look at not only in Lebanon. Of course, where we're talking about things maybe in its locality but it's also in other places we, we don't have to be worried about. Can I say one thing, sorry. Just to finish this idea because of course we're worried about things from an sometimes economic industry perspective which I could understand in order to have sustainability. But what is what we need to be worried about more is the values and the the the mediums themselves what we want to say sorry Alex yeah go ahead. For me what I'm worried about now is honestly how I'm going to decentralize culture outside of Beirut. Like I have a project that is going on now I have talked about it on Facebook and I said, Okay, I have given dance classes in my village and I have seen the visit the visage at the face. The faces of the students illuminate like in rarely how I have ever seen and have and I'm been a dance teacher for 15 years now. And actually, a lot of people started contacting me to give the dance classes in their village, and actually I'm going to start in the Shoof village it's a mountainous area, very soon. Another one in the south here in the north, eventually in Beirut, but I think democratization of culture is the most important, along with decentralization. It can happen on a virtual platform, but for me my audience I try to reach it by myself and outside areas where I can make where it makes sense for me. Like it's important for me to reach international audiences, but it's definitely more important for me to go on the four corners of my country and try to dance, where we are definitely losing a lot on the terms of dancing, because we have religious issues that don't let people dance so my resistance comes also from this point. It's mentioning this. Sorry Mia, you want to say something. No, I'm glad that Alex is mentioning this because this has been a priority for Makamat for years. And actually now we're starting also classes in the Shoof. I mean we've been doing for several years. But we did it already Alex, I don't know where you were but we were giving for years classes and we actually built a studio. One in Ba'aline, one which is also you're talking of communities and religious. We were trying to link two villages. So we linked like Ba'aline and Deryl Amar. So we had a studio at Institut France with also with Institut Francais and you know the, what's it called you know this place, the old synagogue. Mia it's, yeah, it's good you mentioned this but I also with this, when we mentioned like authorities and power and religion and these patriarchal structures. I'm also, because when we talk about culture we talk about probably about all of this and I know Hatim you're preparing and a new edition for Journal Safar, which is focused on the theme of power. Am I correct? Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah so I mean we're basically again you know like out of these these really difficult situations sometimes you know like things come out. I mean for example the issue before this one, which was about migrations came out from it was really it's like funny that it came out from confinement so it was the first time that we were working remotely and you know like we actually put the magazine together and sent it to print while each one of us was at home and this was back in April. And now you know the theme of power is the theme of our next issue which hopefully will come out before the end of this year. And you know we obviously wanted to talk about so many things that are related to power so many things that are related to, you know, like the oppression that the power could bring and the violence that the power could bring. For us at least you know like here we feel it quite tangibly in Beirut or in Lebanon, but also in the celebrating you know the things that we've been talking about like the power of you know like people just simply coming together, you know just standing in one place and how much power this could exert against you know like any system that is in place. So, so yeah, just to also talk about this thing about the question of what do we do, what do we do and how do we do it I mean for me, one of the things that is an ultimate drive is to always have a voice and you know like for me, you know like this happens through publishing just like you know Alex does it through dance or through also teaching how to dance or with me about you know like you know like having these schools where and communities where you're teaching people about a dance or or any or performance. For me it's about it's about publishing it's about you know like having people who perhaps you haven't heard their voice or their opinion, you know like make their opinion heard, make their opinion, you know like public. One of the examples of the you know like the last issue about migrations was you know to discuss for example the kafala system which is, you know that this horrible, you know, almost contemporary slavery system that that is in place in Lebanon and many other countries in the region that kind of like is basically the work contract of migrant workers, and you know like the whole fight against, you know, like this, this terrible system basically. For me personally also I feel more and more that we this idea of engagement of culture is coming to the foreground, it's like kind of a priority for me personally that of course without changing into a propaganda, we need to keep the artistic proposals at the core issue, but then it seems more and more reliable maybe if I may use this word. Culture needs to be engaged and when you say Alex for example you go to the show to give classes or to other places and I remember. I remember you were like mentioning that you even you were going to tear to give this like you drive two or three hours to to give a class. And this is also engagement, this is strength and and it's the simple things of breaking hierarchies of decentralizing things maybe in Lebanon we go more and more things happen in Beirut. You want you want to mention something about this Alex because I'm also I know we I think we spoke maybe briefly along a few months ago about this and I remember this because maybe for for people watching as they don't know what like exactly how you teach what is. What's the ballady the contemporary ballady that you you work with and how people receive this. Actually, I thank you for saying ballady because you know I saw my attachment to this nomination. What is known in the United States as belly dancing because it's a very colonial nomination I tried to change the way we look at it. So for a man doing a woman dance between brackets of course it's very problematic on a lot of levels for a lot of communities. So it's a big challenge in order for me to one impose respect to bring the art form of this dance and to get it out a bit of a cabarese and restaurants in order to show more respect for for this art form. It's very difficult to people would have no problem with ballet classic or contemporary dance or tango or salsa or whatever but would have specifically a problem with this kind of dance because I don't know why. I really to the maximum that I can to bring it to Mia. I don't know why she put a hint for me that you did this before I was not trying to compete or anything. Ballady dance and I put it. I go from village to village to to to bring it to people. So for me to have old people that would just by curiosity come to check and and want to just say few words for us when we finish the class that that brought for them so much happiness. It's already a victory a victory when women assume their sexuality through dance because it's a very, it's a dance that can be also have a certain eroticism for it to assume this dimension of the body in a society that acts essentially on the body. Really I drive hours and hours in order to give a workshop or to dance in places that they don't want anyone to dance, be it in the south or Herman or Baalback. It's rewarding for me, it's really rewarding and it's a way to to reach out also because we tend to forget that Lebanon is not Beirut and what there is in Beirut is not enough for the whole Lebanese society so we need to go out. Although, although it's a very small country with great guys. I was just Alex joining you and of course not I know at all it's not a hint I was joining your enthusiasm about the importance of decentralizing because I also remember the joy and of these people who cannot necessarily reach dance so I love the fact that you're doing this and I current I encourage it 100%. Maybe I just want to highlight that we have five minutes left so it would be, it would be happy to hear kind of ideas resume. Maybe you want to say something. I didn't know who was I wasn't. Yeah, let go Alex. No, no, no, go. I lost my thought you go ahead Alex. I wanted just to say that we have so much to do, but I think, first of all, I'm so happy that you are here hot and because as performance as performers, we definitely need other majors and other artists around in order to be better together and to make it a change or to make a difference we can't do it alone and we need to be inclusive of other mediums and other and to collaborate with other artists in order to make this change that Omar was speaking about before, and how we will bring it. And this is also a very important media collaboration because we tend with the lack of public funding, we tend to isolate ourselves and to work alone and do our things alone. But it's so important to get together and I think Omar has and Mia also has had this amazing idea of bringing more and more artists together in order to be more efficient and less alone it's so important. I think we don't have a choice. Maybe we have one minute each hat and Mia. Yeah, but basically I just wanted, you know, like to, to, I mean, I agree with you Alex 100% on this idea of you know like collaboration and learning from each other I mean I learned a lot. You know, like from, you know, like working in the theater with for example, you know, even though, you know, he told me I want you to act in my play I said I'm not an actor he said well, you know, now you're an actor so I think you know like as you're saying you know I think it's very enriching to to to work with this idea of interdisciplinarity. And of course we have to do it you know it's not, it's not, you know, we maybe partially we're forced to forced into it but but I think it's it's very enriching and I mean this is something that I'm, I teach you know like when I'm teaching in the graphics and department at the university. This is one of the most important, most valuable lessons I think. Mia. Briefly maybe just say that I think that what we're doing is already something that what happened was saying that opening the dialogue is already maybe acting upon all these difficulties so this is great I hope we continue in this and I think it's the key and of course it can lead to to to solidarity but in the context of a really active solidarity with alliances, also people helping each other because I think this is what's going to happen this what's happening this what happened in Lebanon it's a great example that you gave of people helping this is I think also a key of helping each and and keep an open mind just keeping an open mind open to new approaches and new ways of doing things. Yes, great. I want to to thank you for this beautiful conversation I think this word of solidarity probably we we have to be together there is it's it's not a choice it's beautiful also this awareness, I feel there is the awareness of being together in the differences, we need to to imagine things moving also this kind of imagination in the change in the transition. But it's it also brings a lot of we need courage probably today we need a lot of courage to accept change without feeling that change is loss, it's not loss and this is maybe what is gives us the drive. I want to thank Simon, I want to to thank the CSE Arts Link also for this opportunity, and thank you dearly also for this beautiful conversation that we have. Thank you. Thank you very much.