 Gwennodd, mae'n gwirionedd Ffant Cery, profesiol o'r Unedig Oxford a Llyfrgellol Llyfrgell, a wedi gwneud yn Cynig. Ond yn gwneud. Mae'n gwirionedd. Mae'n gwirionedd yn ysgrifennadau yn wych yn ysgrifennadau yng ngyfwng, gyda y ysgrifennadau ymgyrch, gyda'r yn ysgrifennadau yn cysylltu. Mae'r wych yn gallu'n gwirionedd ychydig, yn y cyfnodd ymgyrch, ychydig ar gyfer ymddangos. Llywodraeth is a research institute, but it has to deliver goods in the field, and so we've got three people who have very much the responsibility of being at the sharp end in delivery of technologies or of services. I have Peter Jeffries, who's the Chief Executive Officer of Galvmed. Those of you who haven't heard about Galvmed, I will tell you a little bit more about it. Sarah Jackson, who is the Head of Verdant Ethiopia, which is involved in the AFAR in terms of pasture management. And a young man over there on the extreme left, Sagiq Denegle, who is an illyri staff member, but he is very much involved in this livestock and irrigation value change for Ethiopian smallholders, so at the front line there. I'm going to start off by talking to Peter, who's close to me. Peter, you are with Galvmed. Galvmed is a charity, I understand. So how does a charity operate at the front line? It doesn't sound as if that's the right sort of all type of organisation to be at the front line. How does it operate? So we are a charity in the UK, or in England and Scotland, but we're also a not-for-profit company. And the focus is really on operating as a not-for-profit company. The goal of Galvmed is to put in place approaches which are replicating what you find in the private sector, specifically in terms of diagnostics and vaccine and in some cases pharmaceutical development. Picking up the research in the optimal model, picking up the research that's done in places like illyri or in other universities and research institutes around the world, taking it through a formalised process of product development, getting it to the point of registration and then in a perfect world passing it on, de-risks ready to go as a product that goes to a private sector. How on earth do you presumably involve in developing country issues? Whereabouts? Africa and Asia? Africa and South Asia. So why do you sit in Scotland of all things? I only took up the job 18 months ago. There is a history to it and you're right. I mean there's a logic to it but there's an illogicality to it as well. What's the logic? The logic is that we're sitting in a centre of excellence for animal health next to the Rosen Institute, next to the Morddown Institute, next to University of Edinburgh. Talk to them? They've got their own agendas. Yeah but we can partner with them. We sit on the side of the Morddown Research Institute and we have offices in Nairobi, in Delhi, project office in South Africa as well. Officers in Delhi. One thing that one can't help thinking looking at at Dalton. Is that you've got, you're all directors. You're the CEO so you seem to be one of the only people that isn't a director. Well that's a false observation. But the point is, the goal is to have people who have specific skills because everything we do and it's really important for me to emphasise is everything we do is partnerships. We work with a lot of consultants, a lot of institutes, private sector to pull things through. So Gelfmade actually does nothing itself. We have no labs, we have no facilities for registration. Everything we do is to influence and through partnering with consultants who bring the requisite skills. So we do have a lot of people who are professional people but in fact we only have about a third of our staff at director level. And we are a small organisation. Sarah Jackson, Verdant Ethiopia. I like the name Verdant Ethiopia. You work principally in the Afar region at the moment or that's where your activities are, is that correct? Yes, so currently. The Afar is not verdant. But we want it to be. Okay. But how are you going to get the Afar region to be verdant? Well there's massive potential there for improving the grasslands. They've been degrading over quite some time. You've got significant areas of background areas where the perennial grasses have degraded and you've got massive decreases in soil quality there. Now if we can rebuild the soil, bring the perennial grasses back, as has been demonstrated in places in Kenya and Zimbabwe, there is the potential to have perennial grasses growing most of the year because the improved soil can hold so much more moisture from much longer period of time. Are you sure? I mean I read a statement that was a quote from you in a British newspaper. It says that you said 40 years ago there was shoulder high grass in the Afar region. Well look, I was working in the Afar 40 years ago and I'm short. But it was all just about covering my feet. So where did that statement come from? That actually comes from our partners at the Ethiopian Institute for Agricultural Research. He's been working there with a specific community for that length of time. Well that's good news. And when he first went there. So have they convinced you under false pretenses to get into this? I don't think so. No, there's massive potential there. Okay, and you are linked to the Alan Savory Institute. Yes, so we're looking to set up a Savory Hub using holistic management techniques and working with communities to... Holistic management. I mean what a wonderful collection of two words. Very nice isn't it? What does holistic management mean? Well it's actually quite a misunderstood term because a lot of people who've actually heard of it with Alan Savory directly link it to grazing and pasture management. But the actual holistic management is massively broader. So it's not as absurd as it might sound at first glance. So it's a decision making framework which looks to integrate social, economic and environmental factors into any decision. Currently it's being used for policy development, it's being used for fisheries management and I was recently sent a video about how it's being used for urban planning. So it is quite broad. I'll come back to you and I'll come back to the research links in a minute. Osage, if anyone should know about things at the front line it should be you because you've been involved with the front line. So what are you... You are running this lives which is livestock and irrigation value chains for small holders, is that correct? How is that different from anything else that's been going on in Ethiopia in supporting small holder livelihoods? Thanks Brian. I think it's a very unique project I would say. It started with the previous project, IPMS, under the request of the government of Ethiopia when they decided to transform subsistence agriculture into market-related issues. And they requested the CG system to help them. And that's how we are set up. And the first phase of the project with IPMS was completed in 2012. And SIDAW was happy, the government was happy, IRI was happy so managed to get lives project as a continuation. But again in lives we focused on livestock and irrigated agriculture based on our experience in IPMS. And we partnered with Imwe, Simon is here, for them to look after the irrigation part. And this is a wide range of different species is it? Yes, we deal with dairy, beef, sheep and goat, poultry and agriculture in the livestock farm, fruits, vegetables and irrigated fodder under irrigation. Sounds fantastic. The water side, livestock have got a terrible reputation with water. You've got potatoes at the one end consuming almost no water. I think the figure for a kilogram of beef is 15,000 metres of water to produce a kilogram, probably not necessarily in Ethiopia. What are you doing different in terms of trying to look at this water consumption? I don't think we're dealing with that directly. I think the calcium Europe probably consumes more than the calcium in Africa. But for us much of the water issue is related to feed production. So we're looking at improving efficiency of irrigation systems and trying to introduce improved forage into the irrigation system apart from the horticulture crops to integrate high value livestock commodities, particularly dairy industries. OK. Let's try and look a little bit at the research interface. What is the research behind what you do, Peter? Is there any research? You just picked up the odd... I think the idea of Galvaned was it was going to take the so-called low-hanging fruit of technologies that were almost there and you were going to move them. But do you have a research component? So broadly no. The focus is not to do the research but to pick up other people's research and take it through development. Do you do that research from this institute? We've worked closely with Ilri on, for example, the transfer of the East Coast fever vaccine down to Malawi and the improvement of processes around that. It's been a close linkage with Ilri. The vaccine, that's the infection and treatment vaccine. It's only been around for 50 years. But how many batches have been made in that time? I don't know. I do remember going to the opening of the Malawi unit about 20 years ago and now you've reopened it. We've re-equipped it and we've re-capacity built it. So what's going to be new? What is going to happen that is different from what happened before? Well, I would like to think that the focus is not only on the scientific side but on the business side, so having a business case that makes sense around it because we can easily see a way that the facility there will be producing 2.5 million doses of ECF ITM within two or three years. That will be a sustainable business for them and will be sufficient to keep them going which has never been an area of focus in the past. Is this going to be exported all throughout the region? It's a regional product, yes. Are people going to be happy with the Malawi vaccine coming into Kenya or Sudan? Sir, as you well know, it's not without its challenges. The vaccine certainly seems to work. We're doing some work, and again, another area where we're doing some research is looking at the suitability of those strains in the conditions in the markets where the disease occurs but the product isn't yet available. So Rwanda, Burundi, South Sudan and so on to see whether it's a suitable product. You're doing that work. Well, again, everything we do is... Are you commissioning it? Yes, we're commissioning it. Who are you commissioning it? Well, we're working with the government locally. We're doing the molecular typing in Unzu and Zambia, and then we'll hope to put the product into the field under controlled conditions to see suitability but the molecular typing of the... Okay, sir, if I could move on. Back to the savory, Alan's savory hub. Alan's savory... A holistic management is one thing, and you've described it as an organizational framework. But it's a little bit of a cult, isn't it? You have to... I saw that you were fascinated when you saw Alan's savory's TED talk. I don't know if anyone has seen Alan's savory's TED talk. I mean, it is very... It's sort of wow stuff. But is there any substance? I mean, is there any research that is behind anything that he said? Well, I haven't been asked to swear in the hopes yet, so I don't know if it's a cult. But, yeah, he's been basically developing this over the last 40, 50 years and has worked with quite a number of researchers at different times. So I was talking to one gentleman earlier, and he'd actually done a proof of concept at one point. A proof of concept? Yes. But, so there is some research out there, but a lot more is needed. So it's only in the last few years that there's really been a big push to get visibility and really increase the usage of the methods. So a lot more research is needed, both for further refining the methods and also building confidence behind it. So, yeah, if anyone's interested, because it's kind of a chicken and egg problem as well. You have lots of researchers who are saying, oh, there's no research base behind it, so we don't believe in it, but they're the people who we need to do the research. So if everybody's criticising it and not looking into it because there's a lack of research, it's never going to happen. So you've got your open-minded to that in terms of needing to bring research people. Do you talk to anyone here? People fodder people? Oh, good. Oh, Polly, that is good news. Yeah, yes. And I've talked to quite a few people, but any introductions would be greatly appreciated. Okay. Asagi, is there any research, but now you've had a previous research programme, but is there still currently research going on? Are you counting the number of people that do this, that and the other, or what is the research base to what you're doing? Brian, there's quite a lot of research in the life's project as well, but a different type of research in terms of the issues that we raised in the group discussions. How do you deliver technologies? How do you set up an effective knowledge sharing, knowledge management systems? How do you do capacity development? I think Diana talks about a lot on capacity development. How best can you do that? You can do experimentation on this. So you're looking, you're trying to find out who are the people that you need to be working with in terms of training and training trainers, I see. Exactly. There is quite a lot of TOT in terms of capacity development of our partners, whom we think are implementers of whatever technologies we have, but we walk the talk with them. How do you get, because many people I would imagine in these smallholder farms are not really interested in research, and they've seen popping in and out over the years and they think, oh no, he comes to Saudi again. How do you keep the momentum going with the research in that development project? Well, I think the beauty of having such type of project is the involvement of action research. You know, we, are you okay? I'm fine. Don't forget our promise at the Levo Club. It's an opportunity for us to intervene with whatever technologies that are available from IRI, from the national system, from the international knowledge banks. Intervention is very important for us and based on the intervention we do collect data, we come up with the evidence and we pass it on to the extensions. Okay. Have you heard of this initiative in the AFA region? She's a good friend of mine. She's been talking to me about what we can do in AFA as IRI, not as LIFE's project because LIFE is in the four highland regions in the crop livestock system. But there are spin-offs from these systems that can really work in AFA. So you're about to hop off down to the Danekill, are you? Not really. I work for IRI. If I remember, I think you'll be very wise because I think there were a few hazards for people going down to the Danekill for men anyway. Well, exactly right. If you end up to be the wrong person down there then you'll definitely be in trouble. I've been down there. I've been down there. I came away without being castrated. I can still see the testosterone. It's manifested through the testosterone anyway. But the issue is I think there are some commonalities that we can share with Sarah's project. I am an individual. I work for IRI for your information and we have got this organization here that can provide support. We're putting a lot of influence to come up with programs in the pastoral areas. Peter, one of the major problem that animal health technologies for things like east coast fever and African twine fever and not necessarily African twine fever but those endemic parasitic diseases that occur in Africa and Asia there is no market for the product. There is no substantial market and the pharmaceutical industry would much rather develop products for dogs and cats for the people in the worried well than they would looking at your things. How do you cope with that? I think things are changing rather rapidly and I would say even in the eight years that Galdmedd has been in existence when we started really there was no private sector interest in the segment that we are seeking to serve, seeking to operate in and that's definitely changed now and it's largely due to the change in policy of the funders if we're honest but now four of the five top five animal health companies have got clear Africa strategies they're interested in moving into the areas that we work in they've made commitments and I don't think it's true to say there's no market just to give you one example we've recently signed up with an Indian company producing Newcastle disease vaccine and they've made a commitment of their own money admittedly with some of our money to put in place a distribution scheme which will employ roughly 80 sales reps operating into the very regions with a primary focus on going to small hold producers but ultimately you rely on you have a large great Gates Foundation grant you and DFID I think still supports you so you very much rely your existence relies on public sector money or donor money to provide the interface absolutely we facilitate we de-risk as soon as the private sector is picking up and going in themselves then we don't need to be there what tell me about de-risking you want to know about de-risking well I mean basically any intervention that we do which makes it easier for a private sector company when I say private sector I mean anyone from a vaccinator at village level who's making an income from giving vaccines to chickens or to sheep or goats all the way up to a multinational company anything that's making it more likely that they're going to participate in the sector which of course we look at from the small holder producer point of view but they look at in the holistic view of can they serve the commercial sector as well as the small holder sector which is fine from our point of view because they're there for profits and that's the only way sustainability will occur if there's profits shared along the valley chain and which is meeting everybody's needs so what we're looking to do is to take out if we can provide a vaccine which nobody would have developed before because it wasn't commercially viable and somebody takes it up and makes a product of it that's great if we can stimulate private sector veterinarians to move out from government into their own businesses that's great if we can put a village a lady in a village who's responsible for vaccinating all the chickens in that village and she makes a centre dose every time she gives a dose that's great that's the sort of level thank you Sarah you I saw that one of the the objectives is to is to increase the number of cattle in the Afar is that I thought that in areas of land like that one was trying to get a sort of a more manageable number of cattle but not increase I mean I think that you're what do people think about that Ben do you talk to I guess okay well give me as an example of two different people what does the government think about this example well I think the government is quite interested in the opportunity that intensification sustainably in this kind of area provides livestock exports are a very important contributor to foreign exchange earnings what will Henning Steinfeld think about this here you are more greenhouse gases that map with all the dark colours coming out of Africa and you're going to add to that does that worry you at all? not really I don't think so because if we can also promote carbon sequestration in the soil and significantly improve the quality of the soil and the organic carbon content it should probably negate the and you've got plans to do that what's the goal improving the soil through grazing management increasing the amount of litter left on the soil not grazing down to bare ground? how do you get just breeze in and do you get people to say oh what a good idea I mean how the adoption of this of this idea it must be incredibly difficult talking to some of the top guys in Kenya last week it was quite interesting one of them said well pastoralists get the idea in about two seconds ranches it maybe takes five minutes government people maybe five years scientists 15 years so that's a very interesting perspective because the buy-in is that the pastoralist communities are desperate if you like to an extent yeah so he's also talking about different types of communities that he's worked in our experience in Afar was that on our first conversation when we're talking about some different insights that are included in the model they were very keen to get started straight away so you went in straight away with the community engagement rather than with a business plan and with you as the director or director or well we had a business plan and idea and then we went to talk to the communities to see if they would be interested in the idea because if the communities aren't interested it's a non-starter your how do you get on with the do you speak your husband is Ethiopian I understand yeah you speak presumably fluent Amharic now my spoken Amharic is pretty terrible but I can read quite well I remember when I lived here I could speak it more moderately but I could never think of reading or writing it but you also have experience of animal health technologies other animal health technologies going into your this area in terms of the lives program yes yes we do have a lifestyle component because we animal health component because we work on value chain for these five lifestyle commodities we deal with production interventions we deal with the input supply and services processing and marketing for each commodity so in the production technologies we have got animal health component and it also comes back in the input supply services component how do you the major problem has been in these input services in many of how do you get sustainable input services for health for feed and this sort of thing what happens in your project areas coming from livestock production oriented scientists it's very difficult to deal with the public and private services because he's going to come up with a vaccine but who's going to deliver it that's basically the question our focus particularly in promoting this value chain of these commodities is how do we really reconfigure the input supply services component of that and how do we link small farmers with markets and processing so it's a challenging one predominantly in the highlands we have got the public sector you know playing a significant role in input supply services but things seem to be changing slightly whose responsibility we had a little conversation people you and I about public and private goods if you like and the I remember I did something for your organization a few years ago looking at the markets for livestock vaccines particularly CBPP PPR and other ones and most of the vaccine producing companies in Africa don't have a market specialist or they've got a market specialist and the market doesn't depend on how many people out there want the vaccines it depends on what donor is going to pay this year or next year or what government is going to pay and so it's these aren't really to have these as public responsibility is absolutely bizarre isn't it so in the end animal health inputs will only work within a private sector setting with certain obvious exceptions I believe and you're right I mean he is I can see him what would Walter say that you know because I mean I am a believer just as he's vaccine in Kenya for example is a private good at the moment with the exception of a few areas in which you've got livelihood severely affected possibly what is your view so my view is there isn't an animal health there isn't a veterinary service in the world that I'm aware of where it effectively works within the public sector obviously there's a proper role for the public sector but the private sector in terms of animal health inputs should be driving it in most cases now there are and it will vary by country or by region but you know there will be certain diseases which will always remain a public good and should always remain a public good but by and large we should be looking to put things into the private sector where possible to give you just if I can give you one example riff valley fever I don't think will ever be you know we know that it comes in cycles it's unlikely that it's ever going to properly be a private good vaccination vaccine with you know other antigen ccpp ppr sheep and gopawks for example and get a combination vaccine that would be immensely attractive and it wouldn't you know it doesn't the cost doesn't go up with each antigen it's have you sort of Sarah of animal health inputs into the AFAR system I think they'll be very very important in the long term that's not an area that I know much about so I would be relying on experts like yourselves to bring in that knowledge so yeah we'll be leveraging the knowledge of a lot of organisations to support the communities to bring in the resources that they want yes and the difficulties of getting those services provided in that particular region I think would be greater would be greater than most yes you were going to say fortunately Azag is an expert he's an expert in in everything the other thing that I that I call him fitwari which is from the old Ethiopian imperial system of someone who is very high up part of your part of your goal is also looking at community intercommunity conflict is that correct well you've got a lot of conflict coming up between communities when the land is degrading more and more and they have to go further to collect grasses so for example when we were visiting one community earlier this year during the drought period in 7afar the previous day that actually had a live fire conflict with the neighbouring community now if we can improve the grasslands they don't need to go into the buffer zones between the communities it will decrease the likelihood of conflict and hopefully move towards the potential for improved relationships between communities and also using the holistic management methods looking at the holistic context and bringing these communities together so that they can see that they have common interests and common goals they can see that they do share a lot of things to just fighting over grass we have to end here I'd like to think that learning is a lifelong exercise and research is such a crucial part of development programs is that do you share that idea all of you would you comment on that as a last statement this is proving to be an amazing learning curve and I'm loving it so definitely you've learnt from all these experts here everyone around me at the moment it's fantastic Peter, the value of research to all your directors in all these countries we need a vibrant research community to feed in to the development of products is another area we're working on there's a whole bunch of areas where there's great work going on it just needs to be taken all the way through the development the product development cycle to deliver products at the end and it's clearly the challenges are immense but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be taking our stepwise approach to putting it into place fit to worry that just much Brian you probably know my thinking in terms of in terms of development I am a great believer in knowledge and capacity development knowledge regeneration through research in all this you can take a country, you can take a community you can take the continent if you don't have knowledge you don't have capacity to forget about it's not going to happen so research very vital very important component of our life but I would like to see more linkage into research research outputs in community development thank you all very much and thank you very much for bringing a different perspective to this research development interface