 Good morning, my dear friends. Welcome to the third edition of India First Leadership Talk series. Today we are very excited because we have a very, very special guest. Some people call him James Bond of India or some people call him Real-Life Vamkesh Bakshi. So today we have our national security advisor, see Ajit Dovalji with us. And today we will discuss with him about art of decision making. Ajit sir, welcome to our show. We announced that you will be joining us for India First Leadership Talk series. There was huge enthusiasm within students and within two or three days we got about 600 to 700 questions. Then subsequently we had to cancel the show because some unfortunate incidents happened. And then we are now, until now we have received about 950 questions from students. When we scanned those questions, a lot of those questions were dealing with India's very sensitive security kind of enquiries or they were keen on knowing about it. So we couldn't take many of those questions but still we have tried to compile some of them and you can answer based on your ease of dealing with some of these things. So the first question sir is a very, very interesting question and it actually is about the airstrikes or surgical strikes which were done before. So the students are very, very keen on knowing that you might be there in the war room by monitoring the entire situation minute by minute maybe. So what was going in your mind and whether at any point of time you had the fear of actually or had a feeling that the decision may go wrong or you have taken the wrong decision. So what was your psyche at that moment? Well, I can't go into the specifics of many operations or this particular operation but I tell you one thing. We are all human beings and human, brain, human, psyche, human this thing operates almost similarly. The difference is how do you respond to it? See it is just like the rainfall. It falls on all of us evenly but with some people can catch cold, some people have better climate, some people have got the raincoat, some people have got this thing. So the important thing is whenever you take major decisions, whenever you take vital decisions there is always a sense of anxiety, uncertainty. Because you are not a crystal gaze or you cannot tell the future and you get to know whether the decision was right or wrong only after the event is over. So the die has been cast but more important thing is how do you cope with that? How do you plan for that? Now the way I can tell you is this that is if I take a decision I work out a worst case scenario. I will say if everything goes wrong what will happen and then you find that okay if everything goes wrong what can happen is affordable. You may get a little bad press, you may get some bad media but initial one suffer. Maybe sometimes we may lose some lives it does not matter but we can manage with that the country can bear that shock. After having worked out the worst case scenario you try to improve on that. That is how do I see that is if you know if I buy a lot of ticket or if I say that if I am going to do a job this coin will cost me 500 rupees if it is wrong. But I say how can I reduce the cost? So you start making preparations to make it more affordable till you bring it to the point where you think that the risk is worth taking. Which requires time which requires preparation which at times in our job requires technology superior intelligence and all these things. So you the point I was trying to make is that to deal with fear articulate their fear in specific words and you will find the fear is not very big. It is not as big as you are really worried about it is much less than that. Not only that you can further reduce it by through a preparation through a better knowledge through a better understanding and through hard work. Then the another important thing is that for vital decisions you must have a contingency plan that is the fallback position. If things you know whatever you do a situation gets changed. Now that situation is a new situation that you have to cope with and if you have got to cope with that situation that is what we say is the new contingency. It can be favorable, it can be unfavorable. So you are talking about this operation of Balakot. Now thereafter the media is just saying but this is a new situation. It is a favorable situation but still a new situation. So you plan with it that how will you do the perception management or how will you or then there will be international decision. So you will work out that is what will be your contingency plans after the news the old one is over favorable or unfavorable. The new situation will emerge and then you have got to deal with that. So I think thereafter the fear level becomes very low. You know that when you have cattle for it. You know that you are prepared for it. You know that you have got the requisite talent, knowledge, resources and everything has been lined up. Come what may and we will deal with it. Sir the fear can be handled as you rightly said through right kind of mental preparation and training. But sometimes while decision making you hardly have few choices and then you have to really take tough decisions. How and when it comes to national security and if you have to take a tough decision then it has a long term repercussions. It may have long generations may get affected. So when you are taking a tough decision what considerations you actually give. It is bit different than fear of taking decision. Well first let us understand that we all take hundreds of decisions every day. Whether what to dress or what to eat or where to say it or you buy this thing. What exactly makes a decision tough? What are the tough decisions? Tough decisions are where the consequences are going to affect a large number of people for a long period of time. The risks are high because some of those wrong decisions may change the course of history. Like say when India got its independence and the merger of the states was going. A decision was taken that is let us go to the United Nations because from the Pakistani side the masquerades have come with arms and others. Rather than taking them held on strongly we thought that let us go to the United Nations and thereafter we got into a situation where it became internationalized and we could not the Pakistan Occupied Nation liberated. So that was the decision that has got a long term consequences. Even till today all the problems of Kashmir are because of that other 535 states had been merged with India. So it was also one of the other principally state which had merged with India. Since we had taken the decision to go to the United Nations and thereby we found it difficult that the UN position was not something which was in consonance with our national interest. So how do you take the decision? The first thing is that you must have clarity of objectives. Take out all adjectives, all adverbs. It should be only the nouns and the verbs. Make it as small and as simple as possible. Don't say we are going to fight terrorism. That is not the objective. In this particular case say that we are going to neutralize on such and such date such and such person or such and such module or such and such thing like that. That is the specific course of action about which you have got a clarity and when that happens this is the next thing that I have got to do. So your objectives must be very well defined. We normally particularly the Indian mind gets bogged down with lot of philosophies, thinking, thoughts, worries, anxieties and others but on the focused it is not very clear about its objectives. After that you must do an objective analysis of your strengths, of your circumstances, of your limitations, of the resources available, of the possibilities that can happen. Now when I see objective it is very, very important. And that makes in my case. I never take a decision. I ask myself some questions. Am I angry? If I am angry I never take a decision. Because normally you are not taking an objective decision. Your objectivity suffers when you are angry. Am I afraid? If I am afraid my decisions are not objective. The security of my life becomes more important for me. So my decision will be effective that after this whether I will come aligned or I will be dead. So I will say ok. I will wait for another day. I will take a decision tomorrow. When I have sublimated myself that no, it does not matter. If I die, I die. I am prepared for that. I have made arrangements for anything that I care for or anything that I am. That is my responsibility. Whether you are upset, whether you feel that your personal interests are at stake, that you may lose the job or you may lose the, there are lot of anxieties that the people can have. Don't take a decision. Let it stabilize. You must take a decision to be objective in a completely calm state of mind. In a completely composed state of mind. In a completely neutral state of mind. Then after you have got the objectives defined, see what are the different options by which you can achieve those objectives. Tough decisions do not leave many options, but still there are options. And your experience, your knowledge makes those options, create those operations or those options. So, you say that ok. I have to go from here to cannot place. How do you select the best option? Each option has got a cost. Each option has got a time. Each option has got the opportunities in which it can be done. What suits you best? That is the best option, which is most cost effective and sure to get your objective. Now, who are the people normally do not take wrong decisions, they adopt a wrong option. Which they say that our decision was wrong. It was not the decision that was wrong. It was the option that you have adopted for that is wrong. And why did you adopt the wrong option? Because you had not researched it. Your knowledge, your database, your experience, your communication with the people that you had done this thing. You had not done that well. And therefore, you select an option that is I decide to go to cannot place via Chandni Chowk. And then I say well it has taken me 2 hours. It is not that going to cannot place was bad. It is that you decided to go the wrong way. How do you collect the wrong way when you see the map? When you know the every street and the every turn into the map and then you will reach in the fastest possible way using the minimum amount of patrol and the time. So, work out your option and prepare for it. After you have selected the option then start preparing for it. And that is the most important thing. And I want to emphasize on this that this is very very important that you have to give your best. Your decisions are not right or wrong. What happens is this that is you take a decision, but then you do not work towards it to fructify it with a total commitment with total, you know give your best in every way. You know in life it is important to make right decisions. But there is something which is still more important that is to make the decisions right. Once you have taken the decision, you know it is a right, you know when you are all young people and tomorrow you may like to select a spouse for you, a life partner for yourself. You will always thinking that probably the secret lies in selecting the right partner. Probably yes, but more of it lies whether you can make that marriage right. So, taking the right decision is less important than making the decision right. After you have taken the decision then it is your bravery, it is your commitment, it is your foresightedness, it is your sense of tolerance, your ability to take this thing that you make the decision right. Since you have taken it and you have got a responsibility, if you make the wrong decision, in spite of that you try to make it right and so concentrate more on action than keep on changing your decisions. If you have taken the decision go ahead with that. So, we have received another very interesting question and it is more about your style of functioning. You must have done hundreds of operations in India or in abroad and many people call you as a more of a solo flyer. So, sir, what makes Ajit Doval different from others? Well, it is true that I have handled a large number of operations because I was posted all my life in that actually very young in my career. For what reasons, I thought that I can go for the operations and thereafter I got remained in these games till I became the chief. But actually I have never given it a thought that in any way whether I am different, I feel that every human being is different. God's each creation is unique. Two fingerprints cannot be same. How can the two individuals or the personalities be identical? They have got to be different. I may be different too. But maybe the product of my own upbringing, education, experiences of life might have brought, might have certain anxieties or certain, not anxieties, certain type of peculiarities might have cropped in. And as I get the feedback, you are right. That is generally that people think that I am a solo, these things that I try to do. Well, it is sometimes said in a negative way. Sometimes people tell it in a positive way. But there is one thing why I have been a more of a solo operator. I think that I can probably know my circumstances. What I can risk, why should I make others risk? Their circumstances, maybe that they will do it by their orders or by this thing like that. But when I do it, it is my belief. Let them do the things that they believe in. So for me, a very strong belief or a commitment in what I am going to do, I know that I am going to do it. He may be doubtful. If you are in doubt, you will never succeed. Particularly in an operator. So whatever I do, I am never in a doubt. I know, I have decided to take this path, I have done my due diligence, I have done the research, I have done the other thing, I have prepared myself, I have equipped myself and thereafter I will do that. So that may, there are some people that will be fine. That will, they will take it as an order, but their commitment and their belief level is not same. Secondly, I would not like others to take the risks for which totally my creation. The biomass, you know, I can, I can, a lot of things are talked about this thing that some books have been dated and Mr. Marba has also written about it. That is when we had a lot of these things in Golden Temple. And about 300 terrorists with this thing had gone inside and then they were committing these things, others and going inside. And then we had to take at this thing the Operation Black Thunder. At that point of time, well, somebody had to go inside with whatever cover, with whatever identity. And well, I was the head of operations, I do not have to be this myself, I could have told. I know that the chances of a survival are very different. Particularly when you have to go for a long period and come and go again and again. So, they told me that, well, sir, we will accompany you. I said, nobody will accompany me. I will become more vulnerable if somebody has to go. There is another thing in intelligence operations, you are the safest. If you are alone. Because nobody can contradict you. Even if you are caught, it is your lies that will pass off. And if you are too smart and intelligent, you will be able to take them around and say, you do not know the other man I said. Not that he is wrong, but he is different. So, they can find the reports. But anyway, being solopied, there is one. The other thing that has been, which has been talked about me, is that there is not a surprise in the operations that I take. There is one, this thing in which I had been working, I never repeat the same thing twice. I have never, I think, I started this, when I was in my 20s, and now I am 75. I have never done anything twice. I always liked doing everything differently, as if I was the first thing that had been. Every operation, whether big or small, is the first of my life. So, I do it with that spirit of a new child, as he starts it. Because then you do not depend and you do not have any assumptions. If I was lucky last time, what is the guarantee I will be lucky this time? It validates your assumptions again. This is the task small. If I have to, just because I made the biryani very good yesterday, there is no guarantee I will do it today as well. I will have to see the today. The chicken may be more tender, or it may be more soft, or the rice may be better. It may not be this thing. Everything in life, every second of your life, is the first second of the rest of your life. Every day in your life is the first day of the life that is left. Start it like that. So, I guess there is a, this thing, then the speed. And they say that well, even if I walk, I walk very fast, my speed is very fast. I think that if you can, even if there has been an intelligence leak and your adversary has come to know about it, by the time he analyzes it, by the time he understands it, if you have got a speed, you have got to defeat him. By days, or by hours, or by minutes or seconds, he will get you, but he reached there only couple of minutes later. You are out from there. So, be fast to hit and to quit. So, the speed is, don't get into too much of a procrastination and the thing like that, it's a speed. And secrecy, of course, is a part of this profession, but I always believe that you must have the ability, that is, you can articulate, you can mix, you can talk, but you will always be able to, the vital secrets must be kept the same. So, ultimate secrecy, which becomes a life-threat over a period of time, that is, you remain a secret person, so I think. There are the things that, in which the operational work that I have done and which I feel that the others feel that there have been a certain amount of, what they call as an S4, that there is a surprise, there is a speed, there is a secrecy, and then there is a solo. So, I don't understand that. Sir, you said something very, very interesting about speed secrecy. So, it actually evolves from psyche also. What kind of psyche a person has developed over a period of time? So, would you like to share with us a few events in your life which have actually helped you develop this psyche? Well, there is no event which I manufactured or which I planned that will affect my psyche. The things that you planned, they don't affect your psyche because you have planned for it. Things that affect your psyche is something that happened and you have not planned for it and then leave the mark. If I recall, I think, in a way, I had a little troubled childhood. My father was an army officer and I was born as a son after his, after his this thing, the whole family. I was the son after a gap of, say, 40 years. And I had a lot of boys and then I had sisters. So, I was very pampered. And my grandfather and my mother and everybody felt better. So, I became a very pampered child. To some extent, a spoiled child as it happens. So, my father sent me to a boarding school. So, I went to military school. I was about eight years that time. So, I left my home at the age of eight and I went to, at that time it was known that King George's Royal Indian Military College later became King George's school and now it's known as Liberty School. That is when I, this thing in my life, from the coziness of the house to the loneliness of a boarding house, I developed a saying. I used to weep for long hours after it was dark because you were sleeping alone. But soon I learnt in this life you have to get home. And you have to find your, your, your pains, your pressures, your comforts. It's all in you. So, you have got, so I became a loner. Which I remained and suited my profession. But it also made me this thing that I am responsible for whatever I do. If I get bitten up by the other students it is because I have not been able to, to manage their well. And if I got that this thing like this, so that is the first event in my life which when I see in the retrospect that is gave me this thing that if I have to do a thing I have to do it alone. If I have got, I have got to be self dependent. And everything that I do I am responsible for. Everything that happens to me nobody else is responsible for that except me. Good or bad. I have got to bear the consequences. The second was that school had a very strange motto which still is they have not changed. The very old school, the military school played the game. They used to think that well it is more important that you know the students were brought there in very young age. They must learn to play the game and inculcate certain qualities which come through the same game. And every child was allotted to some game. So I was in the chattered house with that this thing and then the selection started for this thing. Some people were taken for football and so forth, hockey and others. I was this thing for boxing. It is a very interesting story. Anyway, at school level everybody plays so I was also there. I was a reasonably good school time boxer and I did this thing. But my, he was also my house teacher and also the... he told me one day a story. He said, do you know why I selected you for the boxing this thing? He said, you have got a very unique quality. I was, of course, at that when you are very young nobody knows who your tall would be short. So all are short in this thing only by small inches or half inches. So you don't have this thing. He said that is... you never accepted a defeat. When you are beaten up and you are beaten up you will never come out of the ring. Even when you are bleeding even when you are this thing you will continue. Not that you would be just fine but you had great resilience. I will win the war not because of the strongest but I will not quit. I can wait, prepare myself and wait for years and years. And he said that is what I thought that psychologically a boxer's quality that is you would stay in the ring up to the last round. Even when you have lost the rounds even when you have been beaten up even when you are bleeding he said there were much better boys who could be this thing. But moment they got one or two of the jabs or something like that there after they just wanted to quit. Or this thing like that you kept on getting beaten up but you stayed there. Over the period of time you learned the tricks so probably you started winning also. It was a trick this thing and he said that well it's a quality not good or bad but remember that this is your strength. If you can hold in the face of adversity for a long time that's why my tenders have been very long. I was there for 7 years. I went to Pakistan I was there for 7 years. I can hold on. You can torture me for all this thing like that I cannot bear it. I can bear injustice for a long time without losing my this thing and others. So I think as a person this thing might be coming independent at a very young age and there after getting beaten up to understand that probably you can you can get beaten up but it will win. So you took the right decision of actually No I don't know there were circumstances as I said if you take a decision it cannot affect your psyche. You know if I decide to do something I prepared myself my mind reasoning faculty has been involved so it will not this thing what happens in life that changes your psyche. So when I didn't go to this boarding school but I suddenly realized that mother's comfort is not there and there are all boys who are all particularly the boys when they see a new person they all are his enemies till they settle down. To begin with you have to meet each other and the one who comes the new one he is the one who is beaten up by everyone so we have to have a pilgrimage and everybody will bounce on you. So it's alright that is the process of growing because after some time you do not know that how it is going to affect you but that this thing that in this entire world it is my strength it is my resilience, it is my patience you have got the choice you can go to the corner and cry you can run around and go to the housemaster and say that I have been beaten up and you will tell children not do that but the next day when you are going somebody will put you on the elbow like that that will keep on happening you can't prevent the things that are happening to you it is not, it is important in life what happens to you what is more important is how do you respond to what happens to you I think the nature or circumstances you are preparing me not for what happens to me that is in the hands of others of the world but it is preparing me for what how will you respond when something happens to you like that so you want to say sir the decisions rather than being right needs to be circumstantial no, I don't think that that is also much the same it is not a binary thing it is not a decision is right or decision is circumstantial, number one nobody takes wrong decision whether it is right or wrong is known only after the event is over so when you take it you take it right because you think it is right otherwise you won't take it will you take a poison thinking that it is a poison you think it is a sweet somebody has given you a candy and you are having it turns out to be a poison at that time the decision was right because that was the same way then so it is wrong to say secondly all decisions with the right of wrong has to take into consideration many factors circumstances is one of them now if I we are in this room and somebody comes inside to say 1, 2, 4, 7 or something like that that type of thing this is a particular setting in this setting you have got to take a decision then you see that okay taking out of this thing is the best thing or that is you are trying to see the break that over and getting out of that and seeing that somebody can do whatever is that these are the circumstances it cannot be the same if it is in the veranda but there are 8 persons who are armed it will not be the same if it is on the road side where you have got all the things to take this thing and take out pull out your gun so circumstances in all decisions right or wrong is not the point circumstances of the setting is important but then you can setting is not the only factor there are many other factors which I said what are your objective why are you taking this mission why are you undergoing this there are important what is that you want to achieve what are your resources but this question that whether it should be right or it should be circumstantial means that if it is circumstantial it will not be right and if it is right then it will not be circumstantial in this case the right you are talking about more about the morality sense or the value basis if you mean that the value basis then if there is a conflict between what you want to do and what you should do or have to do no not have to do what you should do have to do is a different thing what you want to do and what you should do what you should do is your duty what you want to do is your pressure opt for the second if the choice is between what you have to do and what you you are forced to do there is no choice it is not a decision it is not a decision it is somebody else's decision you will take out a gun and fire at me it is your decision that is all I can at best say that ok I will just lock it off and that is only decision decision is only where there are options when there are compulsions it is not a decision interesting take another sir question or a set of questions which we have received from large number of students basically because these are engineering student technology students about the future of war the future of terrorism because now information has become a key cyber security has become a key so how students are very keen on knowing actually you are very right after the second world war and with the development of instruments of mass destruction where there is a guaranteed extinction of the human from this planet if the wars if the great wars really take place we have we have gone into an era of the clots of agent type war through other means conventional wars are not only that they are not affordable because the losses will be so much if any major country is going to have a war or major countries who are going to involve with the nuclear weapons and others it will be a total extinction it is not the Hiroshima Nagasaki anymore there were hardly the weapons of any of the of the potency that we have got today that is one factor that the wars have become unaffordable in terms of losses but there is another more important factor that they are increasingly becoming ineffective instruments of achieving your political and military objectives there is no guarantee that a country with a bigger army bigger resources more of a technology bigger short power international linkages will be able to win the war the great power like Soviet Union got defeated from the Mujahideen in Afghanistan or the Americans could not cope with Vietnam you know in the asymmetrical warfare I build up my army so that if your army is smaller I will be able to win over you now in today's conflicts in case the conventional wars are not going to achieve your military and political objectives then you do not fight war you want to achieve something they are being replaced by war through other means what did United States or what did the western world or the world do when the Soviet forces moved into Afghanistan there are many options they could have gone to war against Soviet Union they could have done the economic blockade and this thing of the economy they would have taken the diplomatic this thing and in the United Nations they would have sanctioned the question but it itself was a member of the security council so that could not have been done the people from the Islamic world and asked them to start a jihad against the the Soviet troops and in that jihad finally they were bled in fatigue to that extent the Soviet troops had to move and Afghanistan came under the control of the Taliban government success of that this thing we are getting into your fourth generation warfare a fourth generation warfare will be a warfare against the invisibility and in the war against the invisibility man who will win will be that who can see the invisibility that is why the intelligence has become the prime factor if out of 130 crore people you are able to find the terrorist who just look like you just like you move like you then probably you win if you can't probably you lose that this thing is that the court warfare is increasingly becoming the book of this thing now in that the whole thing goes so there is one thing second thing is the technology the mobility of the this thing has become global that people operated within limited geographical this thing now within second people can find this thing and the communication and they can maintain the secrecy of the communication because they can devise new and new methods of other things there are mobile phones probably 50 years back when I joined this thing there was no mobile phones there is nothing like that internet connectivity or cyberspace the whole domain cyber wireless domain you can destroy the country's entire infrastructure you can completely seize its economic activity its banking activity its power sector, its civilization sector its communication sector everything can seize it and put it total heart even in addition to that now we are in the state of electronic warfare in the electronic warfare if the plane takes place I can divert to the direction I can go to the court even the pilot will have no control so in case I can have penetration into its into the court and this because its all being electronically managed there is not so much of the even the ejection of the weapons systems the communication that this things are even the signals it is getting is from the radars even that is if you can disturb it change it modulate it or amend it probably you can have this thing like that so this is going to have an increasing role in the coming type of the conflicts and that is why it becomes increasingly important that we are able to cope with these type of challenges so when you are talking about technology emerging technology I think the youngsters the students are at the forefront of technology actually trying to do large number of things and now with India's impetus for innovation which we are also championing in big way so any time in your operations whether you have used any products which were developed or conceptualized by students or actually they were the people who were driving that something like in movie Uri they had shown that some drone was used by the NSA in that movie movies are movies I do not know comment on that but I will tell you one thing basically in the intelligence domain they have got their own technology this is they hunt for technologies they try to find out what is available or who are the people they try to get it through the sources but do not make them as an integral part of the organization so even when that technology is acquired the people who are partnering with that technology or with those equipment may not be knowing who is the actual user and why they are using it whether they will be used as it is or they will modify it or they will be part of some major component and others and that is necessary for the secrecy of the organization but as an NSA my job is not actually I am not an intelligence operator anymore I give up the profession long back I have found and I have been deeply impressed by the knowledge by the vision by the commitment and the interest of our younger generation their belief and faith in themselves there was one group there was one Indus group which came to me sometime back and they said well they want to distinguish their own satellite some they have started a competition international competition you know about that and they said that then they qualified and then they qualified and there after they were shortlisted and there were only 10 left and they continued with that and they said we can help them a bit I tried to this thing but there were certain complications and they also developed some complications of the role but still they did very well similarly with IIT Madras I think we had this thing and then I told the DRDO because we found that they were making some very good decision which as drones in the left-wing extremist areas we found it very useful so I do feel that there is a promise I do not know in what way the intelligence agencies can make use of them but in the security field in the defense in the DRDO in the other areas I think we are making substantial use of them and we should continue to make use of them so just we were talking about Uri have you seen that movie sir and whether you break cell phones that is what it has always shown in the movie more important thing is this I have not seen Uri but I have never gone to this thing after I joined the IB or I joined the intelligence carrier that is long back I have never gone to a theater or to a movie theater or to any this thing in the television I might have seen in some of the movies but then I have never been to a mall so and naturally I do not have any social life because I am not supposed to be too visible and by the time I got into a life which was open life it was too late for everything and I do not break the this thing but more important point is that in today's security domain communications are the easiest to infiltrate and penetrate to compromise you and communications are the one which is the biggest asset which can give you the speed and others I can only tell you once small secret I do not use mobiles I do not have any mobiles they manage without that how do I manage without that I know it is unsafe just I do not use computer I mean it is computer for internet I use computer as a typewriter I use computer as a this thing like that but I do not maintain any this thing with the I do not correspond with anyone So sir you said you do not use cell phones you do not use computers for in big way for communication but there are large number of your profiles on social media and on twitter so sir what is your take and large number of ideas are propagated as your ideas on many of these platforms I have got no social media account I never had one till today all of them are either well wishers or fake or anything but I think I would like to tell my audience that is please do not mistake everything that goes by Ajit Dole's facebook account or twitter account and other I have none and maybe that someday I may have it after I am not doing anything in the government or something but I do not have any and I have got to know this but sir you write articles you write blogs or you do not write so how many students would like to know how they can listen to your views on a particular topic you know there was a period I was retired as the chief of 5B in 2005 and then I established a think tank which is known as the Vivekananda International Foundation until 2014 I got this thing like that so I started it from the scratch and then it was this thing in Chanakipuri now and during that period I wrote something and during that period I also gave some interviews and also delivered some talks that was this inter-regnum that had that except that there is no authentic these things about what I have said probably your channel as an NSC I don't remember maybe once or twice in last 5 years this is the only one that I am coming in public again I do not know maybe sometime else maybe small event but there has no been no this thing and therefore all the social media and other stuffs it is not this thing now at this point of time I don't think my talking and knowing my views are relevant at all it is the government of India's views and when the government of India's views I am part of it so I contribute my bit many like me who contribute and there is a decision taken by the government and what is communicated to the country is the decision of the government and it is the decision of the prime minister Modi in most of the cases since I am his advisor so as a country's national security advisor and there is this thing like that I may advise him but the decisions and this thing is of the prime minister and it is the prime minister's ideas which come before the public and should come before the public and that is the official position my own views don't really matter so sir coming to the last question what you will advise our youngsters out there who will be watching this interaction with lot of enthusiasm about how to handle their future and how to actually make India more safe and secure place to live you know I think that our youth is so well informed and our youth is so highly motivated that is I do not have to give them too much tips about the knowledge inputs probably they browse through this thing that they all know where are the opportunities suitable this is what are the openings but I tell them something about their attitudes that can make life very happy you have got we all have an identity smaller the identity smaller the value grow in your identity I have got an identity I am Ajit Doval and if I live for Ajit Doval I have this thing that what I eat what I food or what are my pleasures and others that's all identity becomes a bigger one when I live for my village it is still larger this thing that I belong to such and such village or some people get to the caste identity and then you say that you are a caste disease you have been growing but not growing big enough identify your identity with your nation you become the part of a much larger family today my identity is an Indian caste identity I don't have my linguistic identity or my ethnic identity it's an Indian identity that's why I feel that I am as big as India each Indian must feel that way that is an attitudinal this thing then when you are looking at something dirty happening to your country somebody is cutting the this thing of your railway seat or you find that some dirt is filthy this thing you feel bad you think somebody is dirty your country if somebody speaks against it you know I don't have time I would have told you the incidents that once in a ship from Japan to the US and he observed one thing there is one Indian who had taken the ship ticket but not of the of the food or something and therefore he was only given some snacks and not the proper food then he started sort of being abusive and listening to the Japanese telling that well this is discrimination that is this thing because probably he didn't understand the language so he didn't have this thing one Japanese got up and say this is the food till the ship reaches I will keep on I will not eat and give it to you but one world against Japan from here I will throw you out of the ship he could give away his food but he could not hear anything at verse or anything he could give away his food or scandalous about his own country now that is the spirit develop that spirit of this thing identify bigger, bigger man bigger heart, bigger mind carry away the small things small insert, small gain small comfort, small this things become a bigger this thing you become still bigger you become the whole you know the whole humanity belongs to you like Buddha or Gandhi ji or well you know you become the identity that I am a human being our Vedas gave us this still bigger identity that I am a living being so I identify myself with everything that has got a life some people give beyond that when it gave me the niraka or brahma that is everything whether it has got a life without life is part of me and I am part of it that is a haimosme brahma or shivoham so that is how you increase in this things materialism, modern values are making you from a bigger man to a smaller man to a smaller man you are shrinking to you and maybe to your wife and to your children even your parents don't matter much even your relations don't matter much your society doesn't matter much nation doesn't matter it is for me and that is what I will say that bring about an attitude and change be a proud Indian and live for India even if you die in the process you will be proud of it dying in any case is inevitable for all of us but you will be proud to have this thing live your life well and ahead the death threat is out so let's close this on this very positive note sir so it was really pleasure talking with you thank you very much thank you very much for your time and patience