 Well, hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Kubernetes by example insider where we like to interview the actual engineers who work on various aspects of Kubernetes so that we can get a sense of Where they feel like the project is going Obviously, you can always talk to product managers or project managers, you know, and those kinds of people However, the both the good thing and the bad thing about open source is often the engineers have direct control over what actually lands And so we find it useful to actually talk to the engineering community to see where You know what they are passionate about what they want to see happen next Because I think we gives us some better insights into whether You know what what's gonna happen basically? So I think we're on our 10th episode and I would like to welcome our Promoted, I don't know co-host of Savita who was on the show. I want to say episode 6 rings a bell But you know Savita do you want to oh, sorry? I forgot to introduce myself. I'm Langdon White I am currently a faculty member at Boston University in the school of or the faculty of computing and data sciences I teach data science as well as some practical classes doing Basically engineering software and machine learning projects for third parties So that's the program I'm involved with I was formerly with Red Hat for a long time And Savita why don't we have you introduce yourself and then we will introduce our guest Sure. Hi. Hi everyone. My name is Savita. I'm gonna add them and turn to be here on the show I think I was on episode 5 or 6. It was like 5-6 months ago And if the same excitement that I felt sitting on the other side I am a software engineer working on data protection Area, and I also contribute to upstream communities and conveyor community and I have I Picked up a crocheting as my hobby doing the pandemic. So that's going on the side Moving on to our guest of the hour Shasha Would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah, hey, thanks Savita. Thanks for having me on the show and nice to see you again I mean, we are we already know each other from the release team. So I'm Sasha One of the contributors. I consider myself as contributor to Kubernetes and I work in Multiple directions on the project. So I'm part of sick release acting as a chair But I'm also very working with redhead on the lower level bits of Kubernetes So I contribute to projects like the container on time cryo and some related projects as well So I see myself as an all-rounder in that case. And yeah, I'm happy to to be here on the show and to answer any questions And I would like to clarify Appreciate you mentioning, you know, Kubernetes community member because really that's who we interview we actually, you know, sometimes it's engineers But, you know, we've had people who are kind of like on the dev advocacy side We've had community liaison type people as well. I just have the old You know, kind of open source contributor Auto language right around engineering, which is a bad habit, but one of these days. I'll I'll fix it So thanks so much for coming One of the things we like to start the show with is what got you into open source in the beginning or, you know Or if it's directly Kubernetes, what got you into Kubernetes? Yeah, I mean, we have to go back in time When when answering this question, right? So I was starting to work for software related projects 10 years ago now Which is amazing for myself because I never had a profession which was was that long, right? So it's just it's just the first time I lived the first time And the idea was I never was really into open source before so I really Started working on software projects and then I realized that all those companies are using so much open source even if they don't contribute to open source at all and Then I thought okay those companies would probably not exist at all if they if there wouldn't be open source So there's a whole economy hidden behind this huge open source effort Many folks are thriving in upstream and Yeah, and this got me into open source actually and I was more and more interested in creating I started with creating my own projects and sure surely I failed because I failed very often because those projects Yeah, nobody really had interest in or they are solving a particular problem Which is not really which is out of scope of other problems And then I was iterating on those on those cycles and when I was getting more and more interested in new technologies For example, broken me language languages like rust then I started to understand that I have to Contribute that I have to bring myself into a community contribute to them and then get something back in terms of being part of that community and And at some other company there was a project where we had to Where we had to create a microservice application which had the boundaries that it should be a highly available and It should be for free for sure So we had been choosing Kubernetes and I had the chance to work myself Very deeply into the Kubernetes tech. So this was at a time of one dot twelve so in early not in the early stages of Kubernetes, but it was some years ago and therefore I Worked myself in the Kubernetes We created an application stack and I had a chance to teach my knowledge to my colleagues And this was really an amazing experience from my point of view And but in the end it wasn't enough so I really wanted to be part of that community and I was actively searching for a company who is Contributing to that project and therefore I came to I came first I came to Sousa and then I came to Red Hat and I'm really happy that that are Companies around those projects and who continuously contributes to Kubernetes So I wanted to ask you about that The well first up. I think I'm pushing 25 years. So yeah, I know what you mean, but Next I was gonna say you mentioned cute community. I don't know seven eight times in that statement What is it like? What is it about a community? What's what's it giving you that's kind of over and above? You know Kind of writing code, right or you know, we're getting validation for building software Yeah, I would compare to To actually using the possibilities the Internet or the modern Internet provides to us, right? So information is everywhere so we can learn everything without having the need to interact with people but I would say and Having the opportunity or learning by coding software, for example makes it way more easy to fastly Learn things directly from people who already know it and that's the and that's the real benefit So I don't see it and I see the benefit of company-wise when looking at a higher level But I really appreciate this Opportunity to get in touch with people directly by using a chat by going to a meeting or by just texting them and Then getting the information we actually want to have and I think this drives innovation and on the overall project I think I think you bring up a good really good point. I think software You know kind of engineering or whatever is often considered to be kind of a lone You know our loner activity, right? but it really isn't in a lot of ways and One of the things I mention a lot actually that I've found really interesting basically over the course of the pandemic is the growth of Twitch in kind of the engineering community because it is a really good way to connect with another developer where you can kind of Watch somebody else program, right? And as odd as that sounds, it's a really good way to to kind of learn You know like what I often say is like if you if you watch an expert Fail watching them and what they do to get out of that failure I think teaches you as much or more about like how to be a good programmer than Then almost any other mechanism because it's it's so hard to teach that and it's one of the things you only get really through experience but I think with something like twitch you get a lot of opportunities to kind of see it in action I was actually talking about this with a medical doctor the other day And medical doctors do something similar except they basically fake these scenarios, right? And then they go through and it's kind of a continuous training exercise, but they they fake them The nice thing about the twitch is a nobody, you know, we can do it for real and nobody has to like die or be ill You know to to learn from from real examples in a sense So I was gonna hand it to Savita. Did you want to ask a question at this time or? Yeah, yeah, sure So I wanted to add something to what Shasha said like it's also the so for the communities community is a little special For me, I was searching for the place a sense where I would belong and I found it there In addition to all the innovation and stuff like that on your bed It is same way for so many folks who are like looking for that kind of, you know bonding Even though I haven't seen many I haven't seen Shasha I haven't seen like many of the contributors. I work with like two years, but for me. I just feel like It's my happy place just put it in like Two words So I do have one question for Shasha. This is something that I struggled with I know like you have a full-time job You are a maintainer for cryo. You do an amazing job with sake comp Profile and the new features that's getting released in communities. I think it's gone beta or it has gone beta the default sake comp profile it was my favorite feature by the way in 1.22 and You also do you are also the share of sig release. So how do you manage these things and that should having white life balance? Good question. No, no, I'm thank you for this for this big in the first place I'm really trying to separate my work time from my spare time Especially since I'm working at home since a couple of years now and we have a little toddler So this two-year-old is running around and you have to focus on your work still even if he's back from nursery and things like that, but To me it's it's like finding or focusing for a dedicated amount of time So I started contributing to cryo But I'm completely sure that I can't keep up the same pace in the beginning Which I had in cryo for example when starting to contribute or continuing to contribute to Kubernetes or focusing on features So I'm really happy for example that and Kubernetes this whole release cycles exist so we can have dedicated points in time where we can focus I can focus on Enhancements in the beginning when I'm planning for enhancements in the next cycle for example I can For example also take myself off of those enhancements for one complete release cycle and then focus like I did for 124 focus on the Container image signing project so I I just can only focus myself on a bunch of projects in parallel and When we talk about this on a weekly basis than only on one or two per week so and I think the key is to not not to To be fast everywhere, but I think the key is to make progress everywhere over a certain amount of time so the community kind of trusts you that you when you lay down some work that you come back and pick it up and if you have committed on something and You also Come later on and pick those work up and finish it and bring it bring it over the finishing line Which is a what one of the biggest problems we have probably in kubernetes and Then they trust you that you will do is also for other Parts of the project and I think this is the this is the key You don't have to make you don't have to be fast everywhere, but it's important that you make progress everywhere you commit on So so incremental progress everywhere is more important than major progress in any given spot Yeah, I mean I mean iterating is also a good point right so not everything has to be perfect in the first place I mean if we speak about enhancements in kubernetes Then they have to be on a certain quality level So they have to be docs and tests and things like that but if we speak about the container image signing for example, then we knew that That we can work iteratively over the whole cycle because it will not go live until the end of the cycle something like this Right. I was gonna comment. You look remarkably sane for a toddler. I I've had three at at some point or another my youngest is now 13 so I'm a little past those years, which is very nice But yeah, it's it's tough. So congratulations So I was gonna bring up Kind of the security profiles operator, I know that's that's something you wanted to talk about so If you can tell us a little bit more about what that is and why it's important Yeah, I really I thought this is a really great project from my point of view and we started it probably two years ago now And the main idea was that we have one issue in kubernetes that we For when we speak about second profiles that we have to distribute them over a whole cluster that all profiles have to be available I know that there are some other solutions around it how to solve it but The overall end-to-end user handling is not that optimal and it's not even optimal right now and there were some Approaches in solving that which had some other drawbacks and I was just sitting together with those folks who were working on the On the overall solution and then we started to think about hey Can we solve this as an out-of-three enhancement and then later on decide if we can bring it back into kubernetes We are now at the point where we have it as an out-of-three enhancement And we have a bunch of features in it which which are great And and now we are at a point where we have to better prove those features. So for example, we are working right now on Bringing it to operator hub IO and then later on integrating it as an optional feature and to open shift to get more user to get a bit bigger use of space and base on the operator and and The overall so it solves the the issue of not only Distributing second profiles. I think the main issue with second is that it starts with creating the profiles for workloads And because people don't understand I even didn't understand it in if I had initially read read some articles about second how it works under the hood and how it How to create such a profile right how to decide which this call should I add or Which architecture and things like that So we are work evaluating different ways of recording those profiles and we have two right now We can pass for example lock files and then we have also utilizing eppf to record those profiles So those are optional and The interesting part is now that we also have maintainers Which really work tightly together with selenux policies and they integrated the recording feature for selenux policies as well so I mean the project is growing and Also the folks working on app armor for example So we have those three security features that come app armor and selenux Which are in scope of this operator and all three have mainly the same problem of Distributing the policies and also creating those policies and that's what the operator is trying to solve Yeah, the I don't know that there's all that many people who truly understands that come, you know in general Yeah, it's actually interesting about the particularly sd linux, you know a number of years ago We were working on the modularity project right and and one of the challenges there Which I think is shared in kind of a containerized world Is that it all the policies were shoved into one package right because when you're thinking about a you know A monolithic operating system right you that the the key is to kind of minimize the downloads in a sense And so we had to split a lot of that part of that stuff apart you know another example right is the Not not gcc, but I Think yeah, like basically the translations for the compiler. I think it was the compiler also had kind of a similar problem, you know where basically you had like every translation in the bucket and Breaking it apart is you know a whole exercise in and of itself So I think you have you have the problem kind of on both sides of that equation both It's like how do you get them out there? But then also how do you get the out there only the kind of minimal amount of stuff that you want to land in the target? so it's been a I think I would say going on, you know seven or something years now You know a major effort to really think about how the distribution works to redistribute things in ways that we can target You know a containerized world I just say it's one of those things. I haven't worked on it myself all that much I've been more like a beneficiary of it But I find it fascinating that you know It's it's just so different and I think people don't realize how monolithic our operating systems have actually become even though They have continuous delivery, you know and things like that because you know, but it's still monolith, you know Yeah, I mean we have the same problem or I mean, I don't think it's a problem It's it's just a different kind of software architecture But right the same and for kubernetes, right? So we release kubernetes at certain points in time and we have a bundle of monolith And we have a monolith and this creates a bunch of components and those are highly related to each other. So Right, right All right, I'm gonna hand it back to Cevita. Uh, did you uh, did you want to talk about something else? Uh, yeah, so I wanted to add uh that the uh second profile When I so I used to be an administrator in a previous life So all I cared about is like having something that would work Uh without having to know everything about it Because if I start digging deeper deeper, then I wouldn't uh be able to support any features for the platform, right? Um, uh, I was deciding and working. Um, um Supporting a platform of service using kubernetes and these little things add to it and security is an administrator's nightmare everyone's nightmare and uh, It has to be implemented right and when I look at the second profile operator, uh, all I see is that um Um, it's a one-stop shop because it tackles so many things so many profiles and like you mentioned like three of those things App armor and two other things which I cannot think about the one thing that I can think about is that I did see something related to psv and now that we have deprecated psv or we are going to deprecate psv and um 1.25 just like for security policies and do you have any idea to support for security admission controller? um and psv for security standards, um as a part of the operator um So that is one thing that I wanted to know because I was just curious. Um, now that I work in the uh admin world anymore But I like to like, you know, uh dab into it Whenever I get some time you know yeah, I mean the Problem is always those upgrade and down create paths, right? So I mean post security policies have been they will be removed, right? Is that correct? Yeah, it's 1.25. Yeah Yeah, they are already deprecated and they will be removed. Yeah in favor of those admission controllers. Yes. Um Yeah, I mean We would like to go making for example making kubernetes more secure out of the box is something We probably cannot do by just moving features from the security profiles operator into kubernetes because those features are already so Complex that they have a different so we would never get them in but we have to we have we would have to go baby steps so for that we for example this um second default feature which applies the runtime default profile to all workloads in a cluster Right now, it's just a cubelet feature flag. Um, and if we enable it then users don't know End users of the cluster will probably not know that it's enabled because it's only visible to the administrator and if you run a container then you can Inspect the container and see the second profile for example, but the user which usually don't has access to the To those lower level parts will not see that it's using runtime default and therefore probably fail so and the The next iteration from my point of view would be to make this visible to the end users or make it api aware And provide some upgrade and down create paths and this is the tricky part. So we could probably say okay we Apply the feature only to new workloads, but we cannot really distinguish new workloads from Rescheduled workloads. So it's sort of complexity in Kubernetes would also then increase a lot. So but But really I think for example, we I plan to remove the and or we plan to remove the annotations second annotations among 25 and I'm pretty sure that this will also lead into upgrade issues by some users So even if you mentioned it in the changelog it will cause some some disturbance and this um, that's a thing That's a thing where I I'm not sure if the I mean We say we support a bunch of releases for some features and then we remove it and then we always have some troubles about people Not going to this upgrade path and usually for example open shift solves this by adding custom logic on top of it And and I'm not sure how can my question would be then how could we achieve something like this in kubernetes without having a Having this whole upgrade down kit logic, right? I mean, this is something we really we probably really struggle in the community So for our viewers though, um, like we should definitely it's it's something to be Excuse me, uh, very aware of kind of in the 125 of time frame of you know, this may impact your Workloads. This is something you should be following. Otherwise, uh, you might get bitten What do you what do you foresee as a way to Make sure the community is aware of those changes Yeah, I mean this brings me back to that challenge. Yeah, that's a challenge but probably a different software I mean we we speak about software architecture and when we consider something like a rolling release for a distribution Then we decouple those components of the distributions. Um, we have we always have dedicated packages But we can't really and we have need some testing that which ensure that the packages work together, right in their versions and I don't think that kubernetes is made to go this route and that's I think that's also why we Mainly decided to go from four releases to three releases per year and Because the architecture drives the way how we release it and that's and that's the way how it is. I mean I will be there will be always people who will complain, but it's not a big deal. I mean, we are we are happy to solve that by By some distributions or things like that, right? So that's that's the way why that's the The reason why open shift and things like that exist so Oh, totally. Yeah, I mean, that's uh You know, there there is value to be added. Um, you know on top of uh, many open source projects You know that and and ease of ease of upgrades ease of use, you know, those are those are often a very Big part of it. Um, I did want to ask you because uh, I put out some tweets about it about supply chain security and you know your thoughts on um, or you know or potentially the collective thoughts of the release team um On you know, improving the supply chain security of the kubernetes release pipeline Yeah, um I think we have to When did we start with that? I mean, there were some parallel efforts in kubernetes Which we consolidated into our roadmap and vision and and this vision kind of Thrives the our overall effort in release engineering and the release engineering sub project of kubernetes and one part of that is the salsa compliance and the yeah the salsa compliance and Before that we were rewriting our whole tooling from bash into some golang libraries to be reusable and split them across three different repositories right now And this gave us the opportunity to after that After that transition to do some refactoring on top of that And also think about the salsa compliance and the secure supply chain overall story And this is also the headline for our roadmap and vision So it's about an introspectable introspectable consumable and secure supply chain and the secure part of that is the overall Salsa compliance when we speak about container image signing artifact signing And also image promotion All those topics are huge for itself And we own a bunch of caps. I think three caps around this topic right now But the idea is to iteratively start working on it and we started with container image signing in 124 Which is now implemented So it's great It's a great achievement of our special interest group for my point of view because we managed to get all folks on board So release managers who said they struggled with finding out what they want to do Finally had an idea about What is the mvp of this container image signing and also contributed to it and we have I'm not sure how many five to six different persons working on this mvp over the whole cycle And we finally delivered it and I think that's a great achievement and I think that's how it how it should work I am so excited Kubernetes release engineering effort into like salsa and I also like Do a little bit of Subproject running with sick security and I see a lot of folks involved from sick security And there is this cross collaboration between sick release and sick security and many other six within a Kubernetes ecosystem So for those who are watching a sick is a special interest group like verticals within Kubernetes community where Each sick focuses on one component and they work together So I just wanted to give a little background for the viewers So I'm excited and there is also that the recent release. I know the release 121 RC the release candidate. I think it's supposed to be container It's supposed to container images The content images have been signed and I was so excited to see that you can verify it. So there was this Tweet by one of my good friend who created this little demo and you can see it in action and that is like It made me smile. So it made me happy. I know like little things. So I just wanted to say like kudos Yeah, thank you. Thanks. I mean, it's this is really cool. I mean We we thought about do we have to provide something to verify the signatures or what can we do? But at the end and this brings me back to my contributions to cryo because the container runtime folks which also maintain the lower level bits of cryo and are working in parallel on Bringing container image signing. So we will probably see it again in cryo and then we can Close the loop, right? So from the from the uppermost container image signing back to the Verification of the signatures directly in the runtime. So this is really this is amazing to my point of view So you mentioned it a little bit in passing that I wanted to kind of elaborate on it You know the release cycle has moved from four times a year to three times a year What do you think that means kind of for the project? Um, I think it was really necessary. Um, we kind of in the past release cycles. We kind of Press the release cycle into the time frame And now we we don't gain that much we gain four to five weeks per release probably And this gives us a huge relaxation on the release side and also on the development side I already Can for my personally I can plan plan better with features Um, it wasn't it did not had a big effect on downstream. So they just adopted the new release cycle Which was which is great. So we did the survey. We just have to evaluate the results the final results and I really think that The three releases per year is great Um, we had a delay this time about two weeks because of the goaling minor update And now we are at a point We so this discussion is um pretty fresh But we have to reach a consensus if you want to start for example after cube con because we always consider the time in cube con as something where developers are not available at all and And this would also give us a bit. I mean it's a bit pressuring because we have to put the next two releases Until the end of the year and we don't want to stop in december 20s or something like this So mid december is the deadline for that Um, but we can also go for a shorter release. So this is totally totally doable. I mean it gives us more flexibility in planning That's that's really great So so what you're what you're thinking is that um, the The three releases won't be as fixed Um, is that is that what i'm hearing you say? Yeah, exactly. So there'll be Gotcha Some folks are talking about a four month releases, but that's not I mean, that's not true We are talking about three releases per year, right? So, right We can also go for one long and two short So we actually had We had a question from the audience. Actually, well, let's keep going and I'll let me ask the The audience member a question before I ask um Smith, did you want to follow up on that? Did you have a comment you wanted to make? I wanted to ask like did you hear anything positive about moving the cadence and uh, you know from Four to three was a shocker for so many folks And everyone's getting used to it personally. I Love three releases per year because I cannot finally catch up Otherwise, it was like I was just running behind the features without even understanding what they are It that's how it felt for me But from other company perspective another developer perspective, I understand that now they have to plan So like ahead and then implement because of their most wonderlies Then they just have to like wait for another that makes the feature graduation um, like the cycles longer um, and uh, it can push the Graduation graduations the feature and like the same thing. I'm uh repeating myself So do do do you have any insight to that or like did you hear anything positive about it negative about it? If you could share with us, that'll be awesome. Yeah, I I just heard positive things to be honest But maybe that's because I'm acting as a chair for the release. No, I'm I'm thinking um So from from our survey perspective. So from downstream consumers We only got positive feedback so far because it seems to be more relaxing right now and it gives more time for planning and retrospectives and things like that and on the other side I think it did not change anything to the cycle itself when it comes to deadlines and the stress before deadlines I mean, we also have those product readiness reviews which have to be done this enhancements deadline and things like that So I think it changes not much on that perspective and on the graduation itself I think it was It was good because I I'm not sure if that's already done, but I thought that sick architecture is um having a better guidance to when to graduate Features and how many release cycles we want to wait before graduating feature for example and what recently changed is that Better releases are not part um not enabled per default anymore because they are not considered as stable And and a decision like this already has a huge impact on the community, right? So because if I have now an alpha feature and I plan to graduate it Because then I would like to provide it to my downstream consumers, then it's not enabled per default anymore So I have to enable it manually That's one that's one point. So I think the Change of the cadence has impact on many aspects of the project. We are probably also not aware of Yeah Thank you for sharing that with us And I also want to give another shout out to the well run release team shadow program Which uh, it's so successful that I hope to see it getting adopted by other Other six within communities or which is already happening I see a lot of shadow programs and I think it's so successful that it can be adopted across many many other was The open source projects as well. So I have benefited personally and And that's there like That's been a really Great thing. So I just wanted to like highlight and say like when I think sick release. I think of the release team shadow program Yeah, and you joined sick release in 118 right and you were part until 122 So for four releases, which is really really great time and you let 122. I mean really I would like to give this shout out back to you Thank you I couldn't have done without all the support of the community. So thanks and Moving Moving on moving back to Langton. Do you have anything on that? Yeah, I was gonna actually take it slightly differently so Upcoming releases. What are you most excited to see land? Whether, you know, whether the things you you did or You know things that other people have done. What what are the things that you think are most important to be watching? kind of going forward Are we talking about 124 125 because I'm you decide I was kind of saying like like, you know Kind of the next few releases, you know, whether you whether it's the next one or the one after that or both or Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting perspective, right because from a developer perspective I'm already in planning for 125 and For folks who want to upgrade. They are probably reading the release notes for 124 I'm really excited about the doggership removal because we can clean up some code afterwards Not only from the from a user's perspective, but from a code organizational perspective and also testing And so this has a huge impact to to test infra and things like that. It's great and Yeah for 124 for sure. I I love that we have the container image signing in that's that's also a great feature and for 125 I'm really looking forward to also not and for example Small things like removing the second annotations is something which really reduces the logic for example when it comes to converting those annotations to the profile fields and The other way around so we will can remove a bunch of code And this also will automatically increase the security because having less code means higher security, right? so that's really cool and we Yeah, we also have some some changes under the hood which About the container runtime interface. So we have introduced some kind of versioning from v1 alpha 2 It was years ago We won alpha 2 and then we graduated it to v1 because it hasn't been changed it has only some fields have been added over the past years and That's also now a point where we can remove the support for one We won alpha 2 and therefore we can remove huge amount of conversion code in between those versions and things like that So that's that's something where I'm really looking forward to but it's probably not the the most fanciest features. So Yeah Yeah, well, I mean that's kind of that's kind of why I asked the question right is that I wanted what your perspective of the Of what's kind of upcoming The other thing I wanted to bring up is as I know you both are very aware Is there's a certain event happening in spain relatively soon? And I think you're both pretty involved. I wanted to be involved and then couldn't actually make the travel happen Um, and uh, so can you tell me a little bit about qcon? You know, maybe I believe you're both presenting Um, but sasha if you could tell us a little bit about what you were going to be talking about Yeah, unfortunately, I cannot attend in person as well. Um, I kind of I mean There was a bit of back-of-forth and discussion and then I decided to not go because um You can get all this content also virtually. I know there is this whole get together and things like that, but Yeah, I'm looking forward to to have a chance in in north america by the end of the year But yeah, I we have I have three talks, but um It's not like that they are That they fall into the same category, right because we have this cry or update talk which is um Which is something we really do every time and I think it's really important for the community And also for us to get new maintainers on board to give an update on cry Or what we plan and what we achieved in the past and also to reflect for us as maintainers and Then we have this equalese update which is Necessary from my point of view because we had it hadn't it probably us. Yeah, we had only one or two We only had one and and this is really something i'm looking forward to And then there is this uh, uh, I'm personally proud of is the second talk where we Where I can present how we can craft custom second profiles And this was I'm kind of proud of it because I did the submission alone and it Went into the conference by the by the usual track, right? So the usual reviewers Decided to let give this talk a chance and I think there are only 11 or 12 talks From all submissions now part of the overall schedule, which is really amazing because this totally trumps down to To only let a small amount of percentage go through this whole review process Yeah, no, definitely Go ahead Savita. I am so excited Oh, no, I I'm excited to go watch that like whenever it seems the second profile because we talked a bit about it today And I did my research and I'm like super excited to Go to the one in addition to other maintainers sessions at kipcon and the thing that I like the most is that some of these Can be since they will be available on the youtube so you're not in a hurry Like you can watch and rewatch and you know how to reach out to the main dinner Or like the presenter so you can always like have questions Reach out to them. So that is one of the things that I that came out of this pandemic the conference is moving virtual I learned how to connect with people virtually And yes back to kipcon. I have like three sessions But one of them is a maintenance track for six security, which I am excited about. They are awesome bunch of people to work with They create a very warm welcoming safe space And I'm so proud to be a part of that session And another one is about burnout um, I signed up for way too many things Because I want to be like toxic kipcon I enjoy I love kipcon. I get to meet my favorite people. I get to meet new people I won't call it toxic but tiring tiring kipcon. I would call that I'm an introvert So it's tiring and exhausting And for after kipcon for a week. I don't want to meet or talk to anyone. So Definitely tiring. So I have that one about burnout another one is a student's panel. So I'm happy about that kipcon now has a student track because those are the Future right future of open source future of engineering and future is in the hands of students. So having a space for students it's like Wonderful when I was student, I didn't have these many resources and now I see like how much we can help and give back and Start nurturing from when they are like, you know, like From a little seedling that's how I love plants. So I'm just sticking back to the plant Analogies of a friend. So like nurture them like provide them with all the sources So these are the little things that I love and I'm like so happy to be a part of And I'm a little bum. Shasha. I was hoping that I will see you in person. But There is always another kipcon, right? This is the beauty of kipcon. You don't have to feel like You're missing out. There is always another one the same for Langdon. I was excited that oh, he's gonna go to kipcon You but no, I will see you like kipcon any probably so You have a Detroit versus Valencia And Maybe we could have kipcon and a also in Valencia. Um, but uh, yeah, I totally hear you Yeah, I was it would have been nice to um, be able to get to see some people You know being back to traveling a little bit Speaking of students. I would also you know being a college professor that was part of that was part of why I joined That's why I kind of decided to get into academics is um, try to see how we could You know point students kind of in the right direction towards uh, you know, software engineering You know a big part for me has actually been trying to build out on ethics and on You know making sure underrepresented minorities are you know supported and encouraged So those are some really important things to me. So I totally agree So we are we're coming out on time. We still have a few more minutes. Um, but I did want to ask You know, so Sasha, I was looking around usually I try to find a hobby Or something to talk about on the show However, you seem to be a lot like me in that uh, you get the only hobbies you really have or also technology Um, is that is that fair to say or is there something else that you're super into as well? Ah, I mean hobby is right. So hobbies come and go. I mean This little this little toddler is kind of my hobby now. Um, yeah When speaking about spare time, but I'm really into into making barbecue, right? So this is something so cooking grilling and all this all those kinds of I am also super into cooking Yes, okay. So so what did you barbecue most recently? Um, most recently we did pizza on a pizza stone Nice. Nice. That's pretty cool. Um, yeah, I just uh, I just did a pulled pork over the weekend. So I totally understand Yeah, it's uh, it's a lot of fun. Uh, and funnily enough, uh, there's actually a uh There's a cosmopolitan magazine which, you know, is largely targeted as a, you know, kind of a women's magazine From I think it's 1969 that encourages women to get into programming because it's just like having a dinner party You know, you build a recipe and then you follow the recipe And it's funny how much like how accurate that feels to me. Uh, and I think that's why Cooking really appeals to me, you know, it's kind of like programming. They're they're very very similar In a lot of ways for me I totally agree. I mean also the time aspect is interesting, right? So you can't Some things you can't cook fast. You have to take your time and that's the same for software as well Yes, yes, exactly. And I much prefer the things that go fast. Um, you know, I a lot of the time I prefer to make a stir fry than I do a smoked pork. Um, you know But I I like the smoked pork result. Uh, at least as much. Um, All right, so so did you have another question or any other comments you wanted to make? Uh, no, I think I am uh done with all the questions um, the common though is that uh I love eating when you are talking about the cooking part because I cannot follow a recipe I cannot follow anything to the tea. I struggle and every time I end up making something new It'll taste yummy. Uh, at least my husband says that because you know, he has to live with me every day Uh, so but I can never follow. So I have like much respect like when someone says, oh, I baked this I made this and I spent like four hours marinating this. I'm like You're a god level to me. I'm impatient. I just have to have a healthy meal and like preparation time 15 minutes and Eating time is like inhaling the food. So I'll be like done at like five minutes. So but the only food that I love I take time with pizza. So That's there. Um, yeah, what's funny is my kids have actually regularly asked me is like, why didn't you ever become like a chef? you know, you're a pretty good cook you enjoy cooking and uh, because the reason is is I don't want to make things the same way Every single time which if you're a good chef, that's what you do right in a restaurant, right? As you you know, you find a really good recipe and then you make it exactly the same way every single time So Savita, I don't think you're in the the wrong place making it differently each time Uh, you know as long as as long as it's going, you know upwards You know as long as it's getting better But I have definitely had some pretty massive fails with uh, you know making it up as I go along All right, so, uh, I think maybe we should wrap it there. Um, we're a little early, but I think that's okay and uh, we will uh, encourage everyone who, uh, you know find Sasha find Savita at cube con whether it's virtually or in person, uh, and uh, You know, definitely you should try to attend watch some of these talks It's a it's another good way to get involved in the community both from a perspective of Trying to understand what's happening and who is impacting the project as well as Getting an idea of what's you know, coming forward in the future We'll probably recap a bit of cube con in our next episode And uh, I think that was it But yeah, hopefully we're going to have a nice big kbe presence at the next cube con in and a, uh, you know and We'll be finally finally maybe out of the covet. Um, you know, but we'll all continue across our fingers um, good luck with the toddler, uh, and uh, they and both of you good luck with cube con And uh, thanks so much for coming everybody. Uh, and we'll talk to you all again soon Thank you for having me Thank you. Thank you everyone. Um, have a