 I don't ever want to come off like we're, we're fear mongering people from lifting an exercise. Like, Oh my God, listen, mind pump. I'm so afraid to exercise or do anything. I don't want to hurt myself. Right? I don't ever want to come off that way. But what you just said is to me, that's the minimum, the minimal thing that will happen if you don't address this. So if you, if you just say, okay, I'm going to go exercise, F what the guys say. And some exercise is better than no exercise. And that's, you decide that's your attitude. Okay. Well, maybe you go and you don't get hurt and maybe you lose a few but you will cap your, your, your potential of what you could have reached had you laid the solid foundation. Think about it this way. You, you already know how to use a shovel. Okay. But there's a month training course to learn how to use a backhoe. And you're like, no, I just want to start digging right now. Initially you're going to dig faster with the shovel, but you're only going to get so fast. You only going to be able to dig so much because a backhoe is so much more efficient. And so that's kind of what we're communicating. There's efficiencies. There's, you know, injury risk. There's potential and proper technique and form has been established as the best ways to get your maximum potential. And you're right, Adam, at the very least, maybe you don't hurt yourself, which I think you will over time, but maybe you don't, but you're just never going to get to your full, your full potential. Here's a good rule of thumb when it comes to strength training, what you train, you strengthen. Okay. So why is this important? Well, if you have bad form when you work out, guess what form you're going to strengthen to make stronger, the bad form. I see the angle you're going. Welcome to the show. My name's Sal DeSefno, Captain Obvious. It's kind of how I felt when I saw it written up there. I'm like, that's so profound. Well, okay. So let's back up for a second. What, why is bad form, like Chrome quote, bad form? Why is it considered bad? Right? If you look at the human body, there are ways that it can move that will minimize or negate risk of injury or wear and tear issues, you know, joint pain, that kind of stuff. And then you can move and veer away from that and gain more and more risk for things like tendonitis and pain and joint issues and that kind of stuff. And if your form is off perfect or off good, if it's closer to bad, and you're not paying attention to it and you're just getting stronger at the moment, you don't feel any pain. So you add 10 pounds to that lift, another 10 pounds that lift. And before you know what you're doing, crazy PRs with not great form, risk of injury goes through the roof. And then to try to go back to train good form, it's almost like it's got to unlearn. Your body has to unlearn all that crap that you've taught it over the years of training. The worst of this, well, mainly because it's like they've perfected a lot of the ways to compensate around a lot of these movements and get really good and effective at their body's recruitment in a not so optimal way. But to be able to kind of reverse out of that, it's like almost having to relearn an entire new language. So would you say this flies in the face of the idea of any form of exercise is better than no exercise? Yeah, that's such a that's too much of a sweeping statement, right? Like, I get where it comes from. Because general activity is better than not being active. But we all know, like someone could train so poorly that it's better that they sit on the couch, right? They could train so poorly that they damaged their body and hurt themselves and cause a lot of problems. One thing too, I notice like, so my dad had to have like knee surgery and like knee replacement surgery. So one thing I was trying to coach him up like going leading into that is like, let's get to the root of like, you know, your your daily habits and like what you're actually doing with exercises that are leading into that problem. Like, like let's find that out because, you know, yeah, you might replace the actual like parts. But you know, the same problems going to persist if we don't address, you know, what's been leading down that road of like non optimal type of recruitment patterns you've been Yes, and you know, the analogy I use in the past of a sliding glass door on a track. And if it's perfectly balanced on the track, that track is not going to have lots of wear and tear. It's going to take a long time, especially if it's, you know, lubricated properly and all that stuff. But if it's off track just a little bit in a very short period of time, you start to see wear and tear and chewing up of that track. And the more you push it, the worse that damage is going to come. And so what if you just go replace the track but never fix the balance, right? You're going to keep running into those issues. You know that inevitable. You just made me laugh right now because that stupid analogy is so stuck in my head that you use that because I'm dealing with this. So sand from my house blows in the tracks of my it's so just little, little grains of sand in there. My face is popping. It's enough to get my the track off of my side. Well, you know, grinding the shit out of it. And I, every time I do that, I can't help but think this is a stupid analogy. Sal uses about just barely being off the slightest bit and how the wear and tear on it. That's, but that's literally what's happening right now. This, these, these sliding glass doors that are brand new, like what a year, not even a year and a half, and they're getting messed up because the, the same, we have a lot of wind out there and it blows sand and the sand gets in the little bits of the track like that. And then it's, the track is slightly off and then it's starting to grind it. And they feel, they, they slide like they're 40 year old sliders, but they're only a year old and I, every time I find myself fighting with it, that's the thing that goes through my head every time. You just reminded me of it. You just think about me all the time. You know, I had, I had a client once I remember where she was a, you know, business person executive and she always wore heels. She liked the way they look, whatever. And we had identified some movement pattern issues. And so she said, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to start wearing flats for a while. But she went from heels to flats too quickly and she developed issues with their feet. She started to plantar fasciitis. I'm like, oh, that's going to take time to work back because you have to unlearn. Your body has to unlearn recruitment patterns and it's developed tightness in particular areas and compensations, you know, compensations in other areas. And so we got to kind of unlearn that. So the reason why I'm saying this is if you don't focus on your technique and form now, and you're not because you're like, I'm just getting stronger. I'm getting great results. And you know, that little bit of nagging pain is not a big deal if I warm up or massage it. I'm going to keep going. Not only are you kicking the can down the road, you're creating a potentially bigger problem later on because then when you try and back out, man, it's going to take a while. When I went from, you know, I deadlifted for so long, I love deadlifting, right? But I went for so long with this alternate grip with the right hand forward, left hand back that when I had developed, I saw some pictures of myself from the back and I saw a little bit of a developmental issue in my erector spinae muscles. So then I went to this kind of double overhand hook grip. Do you know how long it took me to get used to be able to pull this way where it didn't inflame my arm and cause problems because I had gotten so strong with doing it a particular way. It took me like two years of training a particular way. Had I just done that right out the gates, I would have not lost those two years of, you know, trying to fix it. That's what they tell you. Like if you get into like a sport like golf, like how important it is to have like a coach like set you up from the very beginning. Don't they say it's harder to teach someone a swing who swings poorly than somebody does not? Yeah, if you've already started to swing and get some sort of contact to have to unlearn all those bad habits to start them all over, it's like already starting back square. How frustrating is that if you've been playing golf for three or four years with your buddy, he's trying to get better and better. And then all of a sudden you decide, okay, I'm gonna take this really serious. You get a golf coach and he's like, okay, everything you're doing is wrong. Let's start here. And then you have to completely repress your game. Yeah, I brought this up like before, but like when I was learning guitar on my own and I didn't set myself up for success with that, it like totally capped my potential. And it's like at a certain point it catches up to you. You can only work with what you've created for so long. That's one of the frustration I've had with it because it's like, man, if I would have just taken the time to really learn how to hold my hand properly, like work my way through scales, like all that kind of stuff. But like to go back, it's like I'm starting all over. I'm so glad you said- That's why you become a rock star by the way. I'm so glad you said it though like that, Justin. And you gave that analogy of capping your potential. Because sometimes when we talk about this, I don't ever wanna come off like we're fear mongering people from lifting their exercise like, oh my God, listen, mind pump, I'm so afraid to exercise or do anything. I don't wanna hurt myself, right? I don't ever wanna come off that way. But what you just said is to me, that's the minimal thing that will happen if you don't address this. You'll cap your potential. If you just say, okay, I'm gonna go exercise, F what the guys say, and some exercise is better than no exercise and you decide that's your attitude. Okay, well maybe you go and you don't get hurt and maybe you lose a few, but you will cap your potential of what you could have reached had you laid the solid foundation. Think about it this way. You already know how to use a shovel, okay? But there's a month training course to learn how to use a backhoe. And you're like, no, I just wanna start digging right now. Initially you're gonna dig faster with the shovel, but you're only gonna get so fast. You're only gonna be able to dig so much because a backhoe is so much more efficient. And so that's kind of what we're communicating. There's efficiencies, there's injury risk, there's potential, and proper technique and form has been established as the best ways to get your maximum potential. And you're right, Adam, at the very least, maybe you don't hurt yourself, which I think you will over time, but maybe you don't, but you're just never gonna get to your full potential. What's up, everybody? Welcome back, it's Mind Pump Time. Here's the giveaway for today's episode. It's MAPS, Anabolic, the program that started it all. We're gonna give away for free to one of you lucky viewers. Here's how you can win. Leave a comment below in the first 24 hours that we drop this episode. Subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications, do all those things. If we like your comment, we'll notify you in the comment section and we'll give free access to MAPS Anabolic. Also, we got a sale going on until the 14th. This one's crazy now. We've taken through the history of selling MAPS programs. We've figured out the most popular two program combos that people like to get. For example, MAPS Aesthetic and MAPS Split. People love getting those two programs together, but we have a lot of these two program combos. We've identified them and here's what we've done. Each one is only $99.99, okay? So that's less than the cost of one program usually. So you can get two for the price of one. If you go to mapsaugust.com, you can check out all the two program combos that we put together. And again, pick one of them, pick three of them. It doesn't matter. Each one is only $99.99. And again, this ends on the 14th. One more time, it's mapsaugust.com. All right, here comes the show. Anyway, I gotta tell you guys a story that very frustrating for me and laughable, very, very laughable. So I gotta tell you, let me paint the picture. Laughable while you were in it or now after? Dude, while I'm in it and afterwards. And it's just one of those, I just don't understand it. I don't get it. So I'll paint the picture first. So we had just bought some new couches for our living room area. And so the old couches that we had, these really nice long couches, they have the electronic powered so you can recline. So big, heavy couches. They're nice, but Jessica wanted new ones. We kind of changed the style. So we bought some new ones. And my parents are like, hey, we'll take those old ones. So I'm like, perfect, we'll give you guys these old ones. So my dad was supposed to come and pick them up and I'm supposed to help them and all that stuff. And then he gets COVID, right? So my dad had COVID, he was sick for, and it wasn't severe, but he was out. He was out for about a week and a half. And while he's sick, he's like, oh, I don't feel good. And after he started getting a little better, I hate it, I feel so weak. I haven't been able to move. I have low energy or whatever. Finally, symptoms were mostly gone. He tested negative for a few days in a row. And so he's like, hey, let me come pick up those couches. I said, all right, dad. So my parents show up and as soon as my dad, he brings his, he has a work van, right? And we're gonna do one couch at a time because we couldn't fit both. So as soon as he gets out of the van, he gets out and he's kind of walking cricket. So for a lot of people don't know, my dad's got arthritis up and down his spine. And he's been on disability for a while. He's been working hard labor since he was nine years old. So already he's walking out kind of like this and I'm helping him stretch his back or whatever. And he's like, oh, I feel terrible. I've been sitting on the couch all week or whatever. So I'm like, okay, you know, that's kind of sucks. And he's like, let's go get these, let's go get these couches and put them in the van and take them to my house and whatever. So we're picking up these big ass, awkward ass couches. Now remember my dad walking kind of cricket because his back hurts. He's 67 years old, just got over COVID. We're picking these couches, we're carrying them into the van. And I mean, the underneath the couch is very awkward to hold. It's like a wood plank. My fingers feel like the circulation's cutting off. I feel like my bottom of my biceps starting to strain. And I'm looking at my dad and he's like whistling, literally whistling as we're walking. So I'm like, this, what the, all right, whatever. Load up in the van, take it to his house. We gotta take the couch out of his old couch out, maneuvering around the hallway through the doors, have to pick it up. This entire time, my dad's like, it's like he's just chilling and I'm in pain, my hands hurt. I start laughing and my dad's like, why are you laughing? I said, I don't understand how, I said, you just got over COVID, you're 67. I've seen your X-rays, you got arthritis all over the place. How in the hell are you able to do this? And we just start cracking up and I get home, I tell my son, and I remember I told you times when my dad did that demonstration to my son. And we're just sitting there like, I don't understand. I didn't get that. I don't know where those genetics went. So obviously there is a genetic component but do you think there's like a generational thing there too? Before we got on air, I was showing you guys. I think it's both for sure. I was showing you guys the documentary that came out recently, the Nolan Ryan one, I think it's called Facing Nolan on Apple TV. It was really good. And you're talking about a guy who pitched into his mid-40s, he was setting records in his mid-40s still, throwing 105, 108 mile an hour, fastball, pitched a no-hitter in his 40s. Playing a whole game. Yeah, and yeah, playing full, back in his time. Okay, nowadays pitchers come out after a pitch count. Like every team has like, okay, this guy, once he gets to 105, I don't care how good of a game he is, I don't care what's going on, you know, they pull him out. Unless it's maybe the World Series. I mean, 99% of the time they pull the guy out. Back then it wasn't like that. If you're pitching a good game, you pitch the whole game. Even if it went 14, 15, 16 innings, you pitch. And so he grew up in that era and they talk about like him playing and pain was just normal. He just, like back then it was just assumed that this is very hard on your body. Part of what makes you great is the ability to go through all that. And I sometimes think that that must be like a generation. I think so. Didn't Nolan Ryan, you said grew up on a farm and do all that training. I think that plays a role too, because, you know, as I was talking to my dad about this night, like I said, I started laughing. He's like, why are you laughing? And I'm like, I lift weights five days a week. I've been training hard since I was 14. I could pull 550 pounds off the ground. Maneuvering and carrying this heavy ass couch. I feel like my hands are gonna break. You know, I'm hurting, my back sore. I'm like, I saw you get out of the car. You already have a hurt back, you've been sick and you're doing this and we're laughing. And he goes, you know, he goes, you don't, he goes, the way I grew up and they start telling me stories about when he was 14 years old. When he was 14 years old, they would dig, they'd have to dig holes. And it was all day long. And he goes, it was so hot, we'd be in our underwear doing this and just digging. And then he tells me the story of his cousin. He goes, I have a cousin who was older than him. He goes, if you looked at him, you think to yourself, this guy's gonna die. Sunked in, you know, remember they were poor. Very low nutrition. He's like, the guy weighed maybe 110 pounds. He goes, but I swear to God, he would dig holes from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. nonstop. And we used to always laugh, like, how does this guy keep doing it? And he goes, it was just different. We just grew up different. Yeah, I mean, my mom's like that a bit too. It's just the go, go workhorse, like always just doing things. I think too, and I've brought this up before, but like farm, like anybody that grew up on a farm that played football, like hands down were some of the best athletes I've ever been a part of. Like they're just like the toughest, you know, they could handle the most. They were always fresh in the fourth quarter. And I really just think it's just that exposure of just constant labor and like being able to like understand leverage, like being able to just grid it out and like having the work capacity, like all those factors of like, you know, just decades of mastering all of those little uncomfortable situations. Like it set them up to be like Excel passerby. I think it's the discipline to get up consistently. For sure. Early, doesn't matter about the weather. The, all of the stuff that you do on a farm, so much of it is this like grinding long isometric type of strength. We talk about the importance of like grip strength or something like that. Like working on- Oh, you ever shake one of their hands? Yeah. It's like you're grabbing a brick. You shake an ant shark. Yeah. Right afterwards. I couldn't say that properly. I was thinking about it. You know, talking about generations. So I read an interesting article about Gen Z. Supposedly we are starting to see a shift in the usage of social media. Like how? Going the opposite direction. Using less? Yes. Oh, wow. And this is the first time that I have seen anything come out in regards to that. Most everything has been like it's getting crazier, longer hours, more time on it. That's interesting. They are starting. So according to this article, they're starting to use some of these popular platforms less and less for interacting with friends. So for example, if maybe they're on Instagram still, but they use it just to follow their handful of like super Instagram celebrities. So they're still using it to consume some content. But not interact and really utilize and be active, you would say on that. Yeah, they're not. And they're using more. There's actually a platform called Be Real that I'm not even familiar with that is a more common platform they use to interact with each other. And I just think that's because they're quickly figuring out with what we see happening right now where people are digging up old tweets and old things. And they're like, you know what, we got to get away from this like, like putting our stuff out there for the whole world to see. And if we're going to communicate things like that, be it more private, yeah, more private, sure they use these platforms a little bit to see what's going on, but they're not as active as with the It's making it public. Yeah. As the previous generation. That gives me hope, man. Yeah. Like rebelling against a lot of this like overarching, like we want to see every little last thing that you're doing. Like that music kid, I would freak me out. I'd be like, I just want to hang out with my friends and do my own thing. Well, I'm going to crap on some of this here for a second. Not specifically, but just the hope part because I just read an article and this is happening all over the world. This younger generation is coming up and I know it's becoming a problem in Korea and China and the US where this generation is coming up and they're just they don't want to work. They're just chill. Just they want to live a basic life I just want to make just enough so I could play video games and hang out. This is actually becoming an issue in China, Japan and Korea. I've been reading and here in the US, there's this new thing called I think it's called like quiet quitting or I'm going to look it up right now. There's a term for it where they Oh yeah, quiet quitting. Have you heard of this term? A quiet quit. No. It's the most passive aggressive wimpy weak thing I've ever heard my entire life. You work at a company and you're like, you know what? I'm not going to quit but I'm not going to I'm not going to really put much effort. I'm going to do the bare minimum, collect my check and then just kind of do my thing. And then if they fire me, they fire me and they called quiet quit so weak and it's this big. Yeah, it's this big thing. I mean, it's that's that's shit's been happening forever, but they've actually they have a term for it. You have a term for it. And it's now like a popular thing to do. Yeah. And they're saying it's because, you know, oh, work is, you know, it's it's not all it's kind of quite, you know, cut out to be why should I perform for this company when I don't care? And I think that I think that's so insane. I've never had a job. I didn't try. I mean, I worked a lot of I mean, I washed dishes and I did, you know, a lot of stuff. I well, I don't think I wasn't my passion. We were in an interesting time where if you're somebody in your 20s or even teens that you most people either have a friend or know somebody who knows somebody who is in their age group who has reached some level of fame and has built a business where they're potentially making millions of dollars. What do you mean? Like social media stuff? Yeah, like that. I mean, that just didn't exist. And I mean, when you were 20, did you know any 20 year olds that were famous, popular or had a lot of money? No. Doogie Houser. But so I was I was reading this thing on like also like exotic cars, like some of the most common people that are buying exotic cars are like teenagers, young kids, young influencers. I don't mind that. It's the it's because I was reading about what my point of bringing that up to your point is that when you start to see that, I see that becomes more grass is greener type. Yeah. And it's just like, oh, like if I can't have that, then this job where I have to work hard. Yeah. I got to work hard at this job. I got my buddy who all he has to do is post some cool pictures on Instagram and say some some cool quotes. And he's got millions of followers making all this money and live this lifestyle. Here I have to go to this job where I'm, you know, printing stuff all day long or photocopying it and I'm having to do bullshit labor work. I was talking to my buddy who I don't want to say too much because people will know who I'm talking about. But he has a business and he's hiring a lot of people in this age group. And the questions that they ask in the first interview, he's like, I would have never had the gut. I would have never asked these questions. Like the first question they ask is, how many breaks do I get? How long is lunch? So this is right out the gates. Like vacation time. Like what does that look like? You're not getting high. How long does it take to get promoted? Yeah. Like I would have never asked these questions on an interview. These are questions I would ask after I kicked ass. Add in the fact of what I said too. And then also add in the fact that we are on an unprecedented bull run. Right. 10 years of like prosperity. Sure. Of you put money in real estate, you put money in stocks. Everything was making money. Everybody is winning. You got into social media early, you're winning. Like we have not gone through a really rough time yet and it's going to be really interesting because you know, what goes up must come down. And eventually when, you know, and if you were thinking about that in the last nine to 10 years, if you were like a 10 year old, now you're 20 something and that's what you've seen for 10 years is nothing but prosperity and winning and people being able to stay home and make all this money. Well, you're right, they had all those other opportunities. Like they had more ways that they could, well, I guess I could go over here. But guess what? When times are hard now, you're not going to have those options. You got to seeing a whole different team. You know, I get that. I get all those, there's all these options, you know? But there's also this pride thing where, look, if I'm going to work for somebody, even if this is a temporary job, which, you know, I've had those, right? I haven't always been in fitness. I always look, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to do a good job. I'm going to do a good job because that's what I'm here to do. And I'm not going to do a half-ass job. I'm always going to try and do my best, even though I'm going to leave, because my attitude was I want to leave and have this person have a good impression of me and I want my work to speak for itself. This is when I wash dishes. This is when I, you know, did filing and all that. But don't you think so much of that is less of your character and more of how you've been conditioned because of the culture when you were raised, right? The culture around the time. Well, you're talking about the late 90s, mid-90s or late 90s when you really got into work. You're not really grew up in a depression. Yeah, it wasn't a depression, but it wasn't a boom like you have, what you've had the last 10 years. It hasn't, it wasn't with social media where there was, you know, how many people are making millions of dollars from Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Stitch. I mean, all these are Twitch, all these freaking platforms that they could literally sit at home and make them, that didn't exist just a decade ago. I think it has maybe some of that, but also just the way some kids are being raised. Like you ever hear teachers talk about like younger generations, how like when I was a kid, you know, the teacher would say something to you. Now if you say the same thing, uh-oh, gonna go tell mom, gonna get in big trouble. Like, you know, a boss, have you guys ever had a boss yell at you all the time? The power dynamic totally shifted for sure. It's very interesting. I think it is a cultural shift, but I don't know if it's because maybe it is part of, you know, good times, but I think it's part of maybe something else. I mean, time will tell, right? Because, you know, I think harder times are ahead of us, right? And- They're gonna be a ferrude wake. Well, that's what I'm, you know. Well, it's, you know, when there's so many opportunities, what are we seeing right now, right? You're seeing all these big companies, right? Starting to lay off, like, and less and less people are gonna have that opportunity. When jobs are so easy to find, it's one thing, but when that gets harder and harder and more and more layoffs and that they'll be, it'll be, it'll finally shift over in the- Now, you know, here's my, here's like the part of this that makes me say, hey, look, I'm not that different, right? I think if you go back generationally, that's always been the case. Cause I just, what did I just talk about? I just talked about my dad, okay? I am a massive pussy compared to my dad. Massive, like for sure. He worked way harder, would sacrifice way more than I would have at the ages when he was doing those things. So I think maybe each generation gets that way, unless, you know, you kind of have to reverse it. So maybe that's just what's happening, you know, and every generation always complains about the younger one, right? How much like weaker they are and how much less, how much they don't work as hard and that kind of stuff. It's just generalizations, I mean, for the most part, cause you do see examples of kids that are really getting after it. And it's like, it's exciting to see that, but I had to bring this up because Adam, I remember you had this, this sort of clause for marriage, right? So after every five, 10 years or something, you had this sort of like- To renew the lease. Yeah, renew the lease kind of a thing. But it was funny cause I was looking at, okay, way back in the day, like mid-evil times. So they, I guess whenever there was like a marital dispute where they were like going to, you know, figure out how they were going to deal with this. They didn't have divorce. They didn't have ways to get out of these sort of wedlocks. And so it like in Germany, they had actual like, like they basically orchestrated a duel between the wife and the husband. And then they had like all these different weird parameters where like a lot of the pictures show, like the husband would be like in a hole and he'd have like a certain weapon and then she'd have a certain weapon. Oh, they give him an advantage. They give him some kind of slight advantage and then they'd be like beating the shit out of each other. Crazy, right? Like that's where we, yeah, this was not that long ago. I mean, a long time ago, but to like on that level, like to fight your wife, I'm sure there's a lot of divorced people thinking right now. I fucking would have done that. Wow, that's a great idea. I'm gonna take it right off. Sign me up for that. I would have done that for sure. Like screw all the counseling and all that. Like let's, let's duel. Hey, speaking of old stuff. So I really, because I think this is this, I think this quote comes from like the 1500s, I believe is where the origin is. Have you heard, you guys have heard of the jack of all trades? Yeah. Okay. Do you know how that quote goes and what it means? Well, I know what it means. First of all, Jack is significant. It finished the jack of all trades, king of none or master of none. Okay. Do you know that's not the full quote? What is it? Cause what do you think that means, right? The jack of all trades, a master of none, right? Well, in other words, it's better to be a master, right? Then it'd be just in the, in the, in the deck of cards, you have a king, queen and a jack. So Jack is good, but at any king. So you're kind of good at a lot of stuff or you could be a king at one thing. But then you could call him a Renaissance man. So the full quote is actually the, but a, okay, a jack of all trades, a jack of all trades or a master of none, but a jack of all trades is a bat, a better than a master of one. That's the whole thing. Yeah. So they're actually the quoted, people use it in the opposite direction. You normally use it like, oh, you're not very good cause you're good at a bunch of little things, but you're not a master at one. That's normally how people use it, right? Because somebody has spread. How did that get so misquoted? But it's actually the opposite is what the, look it up, Doug. So they guys can actually read it. I got, I have a theory. I have a theory of why it changed. If you go back in time, it was important to know a lot of different skills, but as societies have advanced, it becomes more and more valuable to be specialized and one thing and be really good at that one thing. That's maybe why it might have changed. Self-sufficiency. I mean, I know I've used that. And I saw something, I read somewhere. Look at it. But oftentimes better than a master of one. Oh wow. It was a compliment. Isn't that funny? Wow. And I guarantee we've all probably used it. Oh, this is, it's Shakespeare. Totally. That's a Shakespeare quote it says. I wonder where he said it in. Interesting. I know it's old. I know it goes way back. I didn't know if it was, the origin was actually Shakespeare. Doesn't that make sense though, that the value in the past was that you could, you know, you know how to build a house, you know how to fish, you know how to hunt, you know how to do, you know, fix, you know, your wagon and, you know, tend to your horses. But then as society advanced, like it's more valuable to really know one thing. Like even today, you get a job in a, you know, in America and you want to get really successful. Well, now you're making me want to go down the rabbit hole. I went down the rabbit hole a little bit with this because I thought it was interesting. That's just my theory. Because I have used it wrong so, so many times and had no idea that that's, it's actually the opposite of how most people use it. So it's in reference to Shakespeare. Okay. And it was by a guy named Robert Greene. No, no, no, no. You know, in 1950 is another Robert Greene. In 1592. In 1592. Okay. That's where I got it. Yeah. It's called Greene's Grotes worth of wit. Is this a little book? When was the printing press invented? Don't know. Yeah. Look that up. Boy, that changed a lot when that happened. And people could read stuff like this and, and learn, you know what I mean? Cause sayings like that, I mean, it doesn't sound like that big of a deal now. 1436. Yeah. See. I mean, it still rings true kind of today when you, if you actually really think about it, I mean, there's tons of value of being a jack. You know, obviously you're not the king or the master of the best, but pretty good at a lot of things versus being just really good at one thing. You know, you have a lot of value in that one thing then you're terrible at everything else. Yeah. You're a lot more independent in that regard. Yeah. But market wise, like economically, if you really, if you want to make a lot of money be very successful, usually you're specialized. I mean, isn't that fascinating? So I've never heard anybody use that correctly. Yeah. Ever. Have you ever heard somebody use it in that? That's why I knew you guys would finish it the same way I would have finished it, but there's literally another sentence right after that. Well, I like to learn about the origins of certain sayings because sometimes the origins are terrible. Yeah. Like rule of thumb. You guys know what rule of thumb is? That was a law. Well, there's like a switch and then like a stick. It was a law that you couldn't hit your wife. You couldn't hit your wife with a stick that was wider than your thumb. That was a freaking law. That was a law. Listen, guys, we're not barbarians here. Use a skinny stick over there. That'll do it. So this, this, that's where that came from. Yeah, I've seen people take quotes of like Hitler and that then they put it and they make you think it's like this super. And then you tell people. It's all motivation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was like, yeah, yeah. You're like, yeah, Hitler said that. I'm so excited about that quote. Whoops, yeah. That sucked. That's messed up. Well, hey, so, so I do want to comment, Adam, on your, your lack of pants. I guess you didn't, you decided not to. I'm dressed for comfort today. It's casual Friday over here. We're here for Wednesday. We're in slacks. I didn't get the memo here. These are the, these are the meta, the Viori meta. Oh, they're a slacks. Look at them. Look how nice they are. Are you wearing the same thing too? Are you wearing the same thing too? Stretchy, yeah, bro. They look, they're like professional looking slacks. Yeah. But they're also, I could totally work out on these if I wanted to. Not that I would, but I could look at stretchy and comfortable. I have a bunch of time. I bought, I bought six pairs. So I knew he was on that, the meta kick with the slacks, but I didn't know that you rocked those. Yeah. So I don't have a pair of those. I bought six of them, dude. That's all I wear now. They're the comfiest ones by far. I don't know. I prefer them. Is that cause Jessica's dressing you now or are you doing more? No, she doesn't dress me. She doesn't dress me, I said that clip to her, Doug. No, it's, you know, just for professionalism, right? To look good. They look really, really good. They feel like sweats, but they don't look like sweats. Of course, they're other stuff. They have other stuff that's more comfortable or more whatever. I scream unprofessional. No, I'm gonna just milk it until the HR thing happens, right? No, you look like, you look like like a, like grunge 1990 something. Well, the flannel was unplanned. It was, it's just been cold in the studio lately. I mean, we've been warm outside, but then it's cold at my house and you get here. It's hot in the parking lot. Then I walk in here and then it's ice cold in here. And I'm not complaining, Doug, cause I'd rather be. That's weird. I'm, I've been sweating in here. I think Justin. Well, you're lifting right before. My back's always wet. I'm not lifting. I'm not lifting before we record though. You are though. Doug too, like Doug's in shorts. Well, Doug also lifted before. It's a major difference. If I lift before we podcast. Have you guys ever noticed this? Have you guys ever noticed about the sauna? If I, cause I'll do sauna sometimes in the morning. I'm hot the whole day. Yeah. Well, I noticed that from working out. If I work out, if I were to work out, like my body temperature stays much higher throughout the day than if I, if I don't work out until a way later in the afternoon. Hey, so did you guys see that here about the Elon hit piece or whatever and his counter? Yes. Well, first of all, I, I thought it was true. I brought it up to you. And then you were like, that's not true. It's bullshit. I'm like, Oh really? Cause I've only read, at one point I had only read the hit piece that was coming out. And, and so basically it said, it said that he had this long affair with the Google CEO, founder. His wife. Yeah. And supposedly at one point when Elon, Elon was bleeding money with Tesla. She was floating him money to keep him, keep his business afloat and stuff like that. And they were having this long old affair. And so that I had read that and I hadn't read anything else yet. And I was like, dude, you gotta see the thing on Elon. And you were like, oh, it's bullshit. And then literally later on that day, I see the freaking selfie of him partying with the dude from Google. And they're all like, now it's belong. So all these like, dude, I just imagine like all these media companies now, like going through like old like Hollywood studios and just, just snatching all the fictional writers. You, you know, hire. So is there no truth to that story? Saladol? I don't know that. Okay. So according to Elon. Like how can they do that? How can they take something completely fabricated? Like they can't. Well, he said it. I mean, what's that? You could sue someone for defamation. So I think you might actually sue them. But media has become, do you know that the, are the public's trust in media? Oh, it's crazy. It's the lowest it's ever been. As it should be. It's the media's own fault. They no longer report. They are all now propaganda vehicles. They really are. And it's great. You know, remember we had the guy on? Well, I mean, okay. And this isn't me defending him with it. I mean, they are for profit businesses and we live in the time and era of attention. It's all about how much attention you can get from people. You're right. And so it's a war out there. YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, everything. That's part of it. And so they would be obsolete if they didn't. Listen, that's part of it. But I feel the same way about them that I feel about doctors that do, like you ever seen people on TV? With medication and stuff like that. Or just crazy plastic surgeries and you're like, the doctor never said no to you. Like why do they keep doing this, right? I understand that the consumer can say I want this and the producer provider can be like, sure. But there's also level of integrity there. Like, look, we work with fitness. We sell fitness programs. I know us. If it made us a billion dollars, I wouldn't sell a program that would hurt people, right? Like that's our intent. Even if people demanded it and wanted it, I wouldn't do it. I mean, the truth is though, this is the drawbacks of a capitalist society. I mean, you're making the case by going the opposite direction of why some people- Oh, I'm not saying we should regulate it. I'm just saying- I know, but I mean, that's what happens, right? If you make something for profit, there's going to be a percentage of people that are going to be for profit and their integrity is going to go out the window. I mean, come on. We see it in every industry. It's half of what motivated us to turn these mics on. Of course. So it's, but that's what- I think it'll correct, but- So that's me. That's right. I mean, I believe that we just, we're in this weird transition of we grew up with the, you know, Fox and CNNs and like they dominated our news. And this is the beginning, right? This is the beginning of the end for them of first it happens with all this distrust, then that opens the door for somebody else to come through and actually build something that people do believe in and trust. I want to be clear. There's some independent, you know, media's sources that are popping up now to compete. So it is, you do kind of see that. It's just not nowhere near as popular as they have such a stranglehold right now. Yes, and I do want to say this to be very clear. I'm not saying that we should have a not-for-profit media, you know, system where they're regulated. Cause then it's just propaganda, but different, right? It's just propaganda different. But it's crazy to me because you could just make something up. And then the crazier part is that people will read it and we get fooled into thinking, oh, that's what's like, when we had the guy on the trainer, the run like a dog guy, like when he told me, like when he was on and he's like, that's not even like one-tenth of what I do. I was like, well, real journalism. And I mean, there used to be like, I don't know, standards. Yeah, they used to be, you know, to the point where they would lose their job if they got one little thing incorrect. And it was, it's just like, I don't see any kind of integrity in that direction anymore. That's crazy to me. Yeah, it's crazy. So I mean, I don't know. I don't know. And I'm not defending Elon cause I know him. I don't know who he is. He could very well be a terrible person and a bad dad or whatever, but it is obvious that they are after him. It is 100% obvious that Elon has become an enemy of a lot of these media companies because of his political opinions. Once you open that out, right? Once you put that out there, you open yourself up and the media, man, they can figure it out. How he handles it is so hilarious. Epic. Like him putting that picture out at the party with him. Yeah. Epic. What I haven't decided yet, as far as me judging Elon on his character, cause I don't know him either, is how much of it does he not like or want or promote himself? Like it's probably worked in his benefit for the most part. Even though you think like, oh, it's a hit piece. It's coming out. Never, we're all talking about him. And so was everybody else. And his stock is probably still rising. The only thing I would say about him is he's one of the greatest entrepreneurs. I mean, the guys created multiple billion dollar businesses. I don't know anything else about the guy personally. But it is crazy. Every other professional athlete or whatever, it's like, you know, you're gonna go back and go through the list of like, how many of the greatest of all time were actually good people too, outside of like playing their sports? Like, you know, like, can we just like acknowledge like some people's strengths and just stay there? I think he's doing God's work by making sure we don't have this population collapse. I mean, that's fine. That's one thing I was like. He's got like nine kids. Scratching my head. I'm like, you just justify like banging a bunch of chicks. He's the perfect guy to get away with that. You know what I'm saying? That comment was so funny. Yeah. I'm like, come on, bro. Trying to be, what's he trying to be? Genghis Khan? So dumb. So ridiculous. Anyway, so you guys, you guys get the tri-tips from ButcherBox too, right? Is that your most common one? Oh, dude. Okay, sorry. I don't mean to hijack your commercial, but I've been waiting for us to bring up ButcherBox because I got the brisket just recently out of there and I was gonna smoke it. And when you smoke brisket, it's like a really long process. Didn't work out. And so I was searching for ways to cook the brisket like either an Instapod or a faster way to it. Had no idea about this. Okay. I wish I did. I would have, I've used this as a commercial before. ButcherBox has created a YouTube channel dedicated to helping you cook all their meats. Oh, what? And they're healthy, good recipes. Like a legit chef is on there. Did you find brisket on there? Yeah, yeah. So I did a brisket one that was on there. But I mean, I went down the rabbit hole after that. I went, oh my God, this whole time I've like been looking at different ways. Cause some of their cuts are different. Some of their meats taste different. I mean, it's just, so they have all these great recipes on there that you can follow along. And it's relatively a small channel, but it's very professionally done. So I don't think they've been doing it that long. And I don't think anyone's blown it up. Brisket is a great idea. Brisket's been hit or miss for us. I just don't know how to cook it consistently. Like we'll make it and there's sometimes great, slow cook it for a long time. That's typically, yeah, like other times we made it dry. So that one's a tough one. Do the, try the Instapot. That's not what I did on this one. But I mean, Instapot's a great way. Cause brisket does take a long time. And so if you're not going to slow smoke it for 12 hours plus or whatever with that, then my next suggestion would be like an Instapot or this recipe, I forget what you call, Doug, what's the name of that pot? We have one at the Truckee house. It's the big orange pot. There's a name for that type of a pot. Crockpot? Not a crockpot. It's called something else. He says it in this video. So if you actually look up butcher, butcher box brisket recipe. It's not a Dutch oven. Oh yeah, Dutch oven. Yes, Dutch oven. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. That's what a Dutch oven was. I thought that was when you hold the covers over your wife's head. I'm sorry. I thought that was a Dutch oven. I swear to God, when I said Dutch oven, I know Justin was like, he looked right at me. How did that get? You put on clogs in bed, and then you fart and put the sheets in your head. That's what I, that's always what I do. You just cook something like that. I kind of chuckled in that. We said, oh, did I get the Dutch oven? And I'm like, what? Rub on the dirty Sanchez rub. And you got yourself a brisket right there. It's a good time. Anyway, you know what Doug? Off air, you're too far. On air, he's too far. Exactly. So no, I was going to talk about the tri-tip because it consistently, I sear it on cast iron after I season it, sear, sear, put it in the oven. It comes out perfect every single time. Very, very consistent, very easy to make. I want to try the gangster move where you have the torch and then just... Oh, dude, speaking of meat, boy, did that comment on vegans on the episode. I knew you were going to. Boy, when you opened that that day, by the way, I love the edit that the guys did and you did, because Justin didn't even tell us that we were doing that. Did you see his edit? I did. Vegan diets are some of the worst diets for building muscle. You don't think that's going on? I got a good laugh out of that. Boy, do that, I tell you. So... People are religious about their diet. Dude, no, there's tooth. Okay, I feel like we critique everything out there. There's nothing that we critique, including ourselves and the old things that we used to do. I don't think we're biased in any way when it comes to that stuff. I think even when you talk about veganism, never are you saying it's bad or whatever like that. It's just more difficult. It's a fact. It's more difficult to follow that, just like ketogenic. We talk the same way about the ketogenic diet, right? So it blows my mind, the two things. And I can't think of any more than these two. If we talk about veganism or crossfitters, I know this is an overgeneralization because what I did see and I want to commend the people that did do this, because there were quite a few people underneath that post that were vegans also and said, you know, these guys are making them really good points. You should listen. If you're a vegan, I'm a vegan. I've been a vegan for a long time. It's been difficult for me. So I do want to commend those. And I know that there's a handful or more that are giving a bad rap to the other vegans because, boy, talk about crossfit or talk about veganism and you get always these radical people that want to. People can get religious about almost any diet. But I think with veganism, it's a little special because there's the added, I'm doing it because I don't want animals. It's way different. We don't get that with keto. We bash keto just as evenly as much. And when you talk about vegans, they hit. And look, the truth is this. You can follow a very healthy vegan diet. You want to keep it whole food based. It just takes more planning. This is true. It's just nutrient deficiencies are more common supplementation. It tends to be necessary when you're doing this. It's harder to get protein or a good dose of the amount of protein that you need if you're trying to maximize muscle building. That's all true. Can you follow it though? Be very healthy? Yes, you can. It just takes more planning. But when you talk about veganism, boy, does it light some people up? And I think it has to do, again, with some people like, look, I don't want to hurt animals. So when you go after that diet and you talk about it the way we do, which I think is still balanced, then they're going to feel attacked and it's their religion. A lot of it too is just what you see typically when there's a way to get, you know it's going to cause a reaction with certain people. And some people get really ramped up emotionally and they can't recover. So it's like they won't listen to the latter half of the conversation because they're so heightened up because they're triggered or whatever it is. At that point, I've had conversations that start out kind of with a bang. And then it's like, some people just can't recover from that. I've noticed. It reminds me of MLM people. And then they've been deep in it and they've been so indoctrinated that they have all the great talking points to rebuttal it. You know what I'm saying? Like there was people that were posting the breakdown of lentils and how many grams of like every nutrient that's in there, comparison to beef. And I remember saying that to myself, I'm like, look at this argument. I sent it over to him. I'm like, you've seen this? Well, you know how many lentils you have to eat? 50 grams or protein? Like six cups of lentils just to get your- Go do that and see how your tummy feels after you eat that. That's what I mean. But they have got all these great like talking points or they've memorized game changers, because they've watched it so many times to rebuttal all the points that people try to make. And it's like, to me, the easy thing just to say is just like, hey, it works for me. I like it. I feel better on it. Okay, great, cool. That's or I do it for moral reasons and awesome support you 100%. But when we talk about it and we talk about the difficulties of it or the challenges or comparing whey protein to vegan protein and the science about it, boy does it ruffle some feathers, man, when it comes to vegan, it's hilarious to me. And it looks that the fail rate on a vegan diet, in other words, how many people start it and go off of it is the same as any diet. Right. Now the people that tend to stick to vegan diets are the ones that really do it for those moral reasons. They're not doing it for health. So when I talked to clients who said, hey, I'm gonna try this vegan diet. And I asked them why. And they say, oh, it's for weight loss or for health. Unless it's like doctor, strongly doctor recommended, then that's when I would have a discussion with them. I'll say, right? If they said, no, it's for moral reasons. Well, that's, listen, okay, let's do the best we possibly can to make this as healthy as possible for you. Let's look at supplementation if needed, because you really believe in this. But if it's like, oh, I'm doing this to lose weight. Okay, are there cases where a vegan diet works better for people? Yes, there's always individual variances, but generally speaking, and this is true for all diets. It's balance, balance works best for most people. You know the irony of that talking point that all diets fail at 80% with that? I actually think is it falls in its face because what other diet has any sort of moral stand? None, except for that one. And so the fact that it has the same as all their diets and yet you still have that, you have a percentage of those people that stick to it for moral reasons, should give it an advantage. You should have an advantage because there is a certain amount of people that, regardless if they're getting the nutrients they're supposed to, regardless if it's working for them, they're like, I am not gonna eat animals. So that in itself should give you an edge. Well, to be honest, look, when you do control for that and you just look at people who follow it for moral reasons, the fail rate's actually a lot better. It's a lot better than 85%, not quite as bad. But again, most people don't do it. Well, that would be teasing them out. I'm saying if you group them all together, they fall in the same category. Correct. So they should bring that number up. You're right. And you wanna know what's funny? There's studies that show that when people drink, when vegans drink that they're a high percentage and will go eat meat afterwards. So their inhibitions go down with alcohol. And part of that is I'm gonna go- The body just takes over. I'm gonna eat a burger or whatever. Isn't that crazy? That's so wild. But yeah, it can be, I would consider it an extreme diet, although I guess mainstream wouldn't consider extreme diet. It is, you're cutting out- Well, it's promoted by mainstream right now. It's like, you see things come in cycles and waves and this is the thing is to go all plant-based. And so we just, as a counterpoint, you gotta consider it's difficult to get protein. That is a fact. The thing that annoys me about it is, listen, if you follow it, you like it, it works for you, do it. I want you to do it. I'm not trying to convince people that it works for them or they have a moral reason of doing it or they like it or they have great results. All we're trying to do is present it to, what happens is something like that, especially that one has been so politicized and it's being touted as so amazing and it's just not. It's not that amazing. It's not as amazing as you all think it is. It's just like all the rest of them. Just like Paleo, just like Keto, just like IFYM, just like Intermittent Fat, it's just like every other fad that's out there. It's just as good and you can make all the same arguments in case of that. At the end of the day, we're just trying to present to the general population that is getting all this noise and help them understand that, listen, if you're doing it because you think it's the best or you heard somebody about this, so let us present to you some of the pitfalls of that. And we do that with every dime. And 100%, we're gonna get more negative comments than we get after this particular episode. I guarantee it. So we look forward to it. Yeah. All right, check this out. By now you've heard of CBD, but here's a problem. Most of the companies that sell CBD products suck. You don't even feel it when you take it. Well, that's not the case with Ned. So Ned is full spectrum hemp oil extract, meaning it doesn't just have CBD. It's got all of the beneficial cannabinoids that you find in hemp that help reduce inflammation, help with anxiety, sleep, give you a sense of euphoria. But this one you actually feel, I'm telling you, you try Ned, give it 30 to 45 minutes, you will feel this CBD product. Go check this company out. Head over to helloned.com, that's H-E-L-L-O-N-E-D.com forward slash mind pump and go check out their stuff. All right, here comes the show. Our first caller is Carrie from New York. Hi Carrie, how can we help you? Hey guys, thanks for taking my question. My question actually proteins to your map symmetry program. So I wanted to kind of get some advice on how I should tweak it for my activity levels. So for some context, I'm 25. I've been working out for about six years, primarily focusing on muscle building, but over the next few months, I kind of want to spend more time fixing my form and working on my mobility and any imbalances I have. So I actually started personal training school in the beginning of July, and it caused my step counts to go from around 3000 steps a day to about 9000 steps a day. So we do a lot of hands-on training in this school where I will pretend to be a client for the other students and they'll do the same thing for me. So I'm doing a lot of various upper and lower body exercises throughout the day. I also do mobility. I do two sessions of mobility a day for about 10 minutes a day and I stretch for 15 minutes a day. So I weigh about 133 pounds. My maintenance is around 2,200 calories and I have about 160 grams of protein a day. My question is I don't want to lose all of the muscle. I spent all winter building with the increased activity levels. So with my schedule being so full, how do you recommend I incorporate map symmetry into my program without losing any muscle or while also including some days for muscle building itself? Yeah, the two most important things that I would do to offset that is one, if you're already having a lot of volume of activity and you want to add a program to that, is I would reduce the volume where you can. So if you can't reduce it in other aspects of your life, then I would do less of the volume that's prescribed in map symmetry. So maybe you can cut the sets down that we recommend by a third, for example. And the second thing would be to bump your calories. So because of all the additional activity, I would increase your calories by about 200 or 300 a day and you can honestly, because you're eating so much protein, you don't have to add more protein. You could just add it in the form of carbohydrates or fats and those two things right there should help offset any potential muscle loss that you may experience. You could also modify intensity too. So if you were to follow the program as is, you just dramatically reduce the intensity. Sometimes we get in this mindset of when we go and we lift that we like always have to get after it or sweat or this burn. Nothing is wrong with following the protocol and moving all the weight at 50% of your intensity, even though you could do double the weight in every exercise, just moving like that at that low of an intensity will also help that. So that's an option and increasing calories would be the two things. You may find that just by adding 300 calories, that alone might just do it. I mean, you may find, I'm seeing you right now, you look pretty lean. So a bump of 300 calories with that additional activity, you might just end up building a little muscle. You might not even lose muscle, you might actually build muscle as a result of doing that. So that's one of the first places I would start. If you're eating 24, are you eating 24 or is that just what your maintenance is? My maintenance right now is 22. So I just earlier this week, I bumped it up to about 24, but I'm still seeing scale go down, but it's only about a week. Yeah, I would, I'd go up to, all right, so you already bumped it too. So I'd go up to 26, bump in another 200 and then see what happens. And then so with my, the sessions that I have during the class, so some days we focus on lower body, some days we focus on upper body, but it's in like a gym setting. So I could pick the weights that I use. So I was thinking, do you think I should kind of use those as like trigger sessions when I can? Yeah, I'd go real easy, real light, real easy, just perfect technique in form. Don't treat it like a workout. 100%, that's what I would do. Okay, now because you're a trainer, Kari, do you have Maps Prime and Prime Pro? I don't. Okay, don't, Adam, calm down. I'm gonna send those to you right now, okay? Cause I think those will bring you the most value as a trainer. Also, I really liked that poster in the back of your room. That's really cool. Oh, my tapestry? Yeah, that's really cool. I like that. Thanks, it's supposed to give a chill vibe. I think it does it very well. It totally does. I'm getting a chill vibe right now, but we'll send you Prime and Prime Pro, cause I think those will be the most valuable and keep the intensity low in the classes. Bump your calories. I think you'll be totally fine. Good vibes. Good vibes, totally. Sal is so not cool. I know. We're sorry for that. Yeah. Okay, that's all I gotta say. Listen, listen, I'm gonna bet right now her favorite host on the show is me. Am I right, Kari? Am I right? The guy that gave you the free programs? Yeah. There it is. Told you. I told you guys. Every time. Also the guy that comes mentioned on my tapestry. Yeah, exactly. Thanks, Kari. I appreciate you calling in. All right. Apologize for my Neanderthal co-host. Anyway, so... It's super windy in there, by the way. Yeah, you know what that, I think she might have had a fan on. That might have been blowing air into the mic. Well, it's interesting because when she was talking, that was the only time there was a problem, so... Weird. Very strange. Yeah, you know... Super power. I think she overcomplicated everything. Sounded like it. You know, I used to... You guys ever trained group X instructors? And one of the challenges was that the fact that they would do the class with the class? Right. And I remember one of the easiest things I ever did with one of these instructors who was struggling. She's like, I'm losing muscle. What do I do? I said, stop taking the class with your class. Just instruct them and then walk around and watch their form. And that alone made a huge difference. It was like she was working out three, four times a day on top of her workouts because she was doing the class. Well, which is another form of just modifying intensity. Sometimes we think that like scaling back means we need to drop all these exercises or drop sets. Sometimes it's okay to just go through the movements and just reduce the intensity, the weight you're moving. Just go, I mean, because I think there's tremendous benefit of still moving the body through these exercises and doing the movements. Just, you know, like you said, practice them. Practice them, go really lightweight and go through it. And I think that would help out a ton. And then also the bumping the calories with all the extra movement. Our next caller is Carrie from China. Hey Carrie, how can we help you? Hey guys, this is so cool. So my question is I've been lifting for many years and recently bought a bunch of maps programs. And I'm finding that there are quite a few shrugs and bicep curls and calf raises in some of the programs. And I was wondering what are the benefits to these movements beyond growing my traps and my biceps and my calves? Because these aren't target areas for me. So yeah, so I'm just wondering should I skip them or should I try to modify the volume in some way or would that mess with the programming somehow? Or could I replace them with other movements for target areas that I am trying to grow? Because I know that all the movements are kind of put together with a long-term plan. So I wasn't sure if changing them for completely different movements that target different body parts would impact the programming. Yeah, really good question. Okay, so I'll answer the first part. I mean, the basic answer is to strengthen those areas. So shrugs help strengthen the shoulder girdle, helps provide stability for the shoulders. Obviously, it works those trap muscles as well. Biceps, I mean, you're strengthening the arms. The biceps are an important muscle to have to be strong. Calf raises, same thing with the calf area. Now, can you, if you feel those areas are strong and stable, can you cut the volume or even eliminate exercises, those exercises and replace them with others? Yeah, you totally can. Your biceps are gonna get stronger just from doing back exercises. Your traps will get more stable and strong from doing a lot of overhead presses and rows. And if your calves, if you do a lot of walking and you're gonna get some stabilization with your calves with other lower body exercises. So you can take those exercises out or just reduce the volume and replace them with target areas. But I would caution people listening if you need strengthen those areas, don't just think of it from an aesthetic standpoint. Because I've had women say, I don't wanna work my biceps and I want big arms, but they're not in a place where they think they have big arms now. I'll say, well, strengthen those anyways. And when you get to the point where you're like, okay, I don't want this muscle to get any more developed, then it's okay to cut it out. So remember, the strength is the most important thing that we want. So, but you can definitely cut those out or reduce them and replace with other stuff. Well, especially these three in my opinion too. I mean, you're talking, we're not talking about prime movers, right? She's not trying to drop the back. Presses. These are all the ones we're trying to sneak in at the end. Yeah, so this is an example of like where if you were a client of mine, we, one, we would have gone through like maps prime. So I could have assessed your movement and your posture. And this is a perfect example of where I would probably drop those exercises and then put in something that I think would benefit your overall posture or something, right? So like, I don't know if you've gone through the maps prime yet or not. Justin. Yeah, I have. Okay, cool. So here's, so I don't know how well you did on zone one, zone two or zone three, but let's just say for example, you failed zone one pretty bad. So this is where I might put in a movement that's going to work on that to benefit that, which is in prime, like a fortification exercise. I might slide that into the workout here. So there's an example, or if there was a specific body part that we're trying to work on that you feel is lagging, I might put that in there. Although I do know that in map, you have the RGB so maps aesthetic is what we really get into focusing on body parts. So I would more than likely either do a corrective exercise right here that I think will benefit your overall posture or potentially even a mobility movement in this place. Let's say you have a real hard time with getting deep squats and it's ankle mobility is the reason for it. And so if you were training with me for that hour and then we come up on the bicep section, we wouldn't do that. We would get down and I do some combat stretching with you just to build that into a routine for you. So this is how I would modify in a situation like that if you were an actual client. Yeah, but to Sal's point in terms of strength is the shoulder girdle because I've gotten that criticism a few times with women for the shrugs because it's just not like a typical exercise women are pursuing for the most part. But in terms of like strengthening your upper back and also that feeding into the stability and keeping your shoulders in track, there's a lot of functional benefit to it as well as strengthening it. Okay, okay, that's good to know. Actually, I seem to have maybe hurt my shoulder a little bit recently and maybe it's because I've been skipping the shrugs. So, okay, should I, sorry? Go, I was gonna say, you do them light, you do them real slow and controlled. Maintain good posture while you do them. And then when you do your shoulder exercises, same thing, like maintain good form, good technique and try to find a way to move within the form where it feels good. If that means you need to cut the weight way down then so be it. Kerry, I see that you bought all these programs. Have you actually gone all the way through a program yet from beginning to end yet? Are you just getting started? I've done performance and anabolic and I just started aesthetic. But then I went on holiday for a couple of weeks and I'm gonna have to start over again. Okay, so there's some other things here because you did performance so you get the mobility thing that I was saying there. So if there was something in performance that you felt you got great benefits from that was like maybe part of a mobility session or say like a Z-Press exercise. I can exercise that you're like, oh that really, like this is where we try and teach people. Like we always tell people like follow everything to a T at least once so you get the gist of the programming and why are we doing it. And then let's say when you're coming back around and now you're an anabolic and you're like, man, I don't want all this trap work here but boy, when I was doing that Z-Press and performance, my shoulders felt good. I felt the core stability. And so then I take that and I'm gonna put it in right there, right? So you can use the other programs or let's say I think you have strong also, we're bringing up traps. There's farmer walks in that program. That's a great exercise. It's gonna do with Justin and Sauer talking about the shoulder girdle and stability in the shoulder. And so you really liked that and it's not like directly working on hypertrophy for the traps but it is giving you those benefits. Yeah, it's giving you the benefits that they're talking about. So this is how we start to kind of mold and play with some of the things in the other programs and then put them in and replace some movements like that. Kerry, I wanna ask you a question. How do you listen to us in China because I've had other people say that they can't access our show because of the platforms being blocked and stuff. Are you, is there a specific platform or if you don't wanna answer, you don't have to by the way but just out of curiosity. Oh no, it's fine, yeah. No, it's a bit iffy. So sometimes it's easy to download, sometimes it's not but I'm using the Apple platform, Apple podcast, yeah. Spotify just doesn't work at all. I can't listen to music but I can't listen to podcasts. I don't know why and sometimes I need a VPN. Yeah, but not always. So I don't really understand. All right, good deal. We're not fully banned yet boys. We gotta try harder. No, you're not fully banned. But I do sometimes sneak across the Great Wall to the Great Firewall to catch up on your Instagram. Well thank you. I got my illegal contraband mind pump over here. Oh God, I love you. Thank you so much. I wanna thank you guys. Yeah, yeah, you guys have brought me a lot of joy. I've been listening for four years. You're in my ear every day so. Hell yeah. Brought me a lot of joy. I've learned a lot from the show not just about fitness but just about life in general. Entrepreneurship especially. It's really cool to say to you guys every day. Well thank you so much Kari, I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Thank you guys, very helpful. Thank you. Yeah, bye. Bro, how cool is that that you gotta like, you gotta get a VPN and you gotta like sneak mind pump in so you can listen to us. Such a rebel. Oh that makes me so happy. It also highlights how hard it is to control, you know, that kind of stuff in the age of technology. I'm sure, yeah. But you know, she has a very common question and you know, I've worked with women who genuinely strong, genuinely said oh, you know, my traps are a little overdeveloped. And so we kind of cut those out. But it's usually not the case. Usually they're just afraid of the exercise but you know, you're not gonna work out a muscle and wake up the next day with it being overdeveloped. So my advice is always, you know, train every muscle. And then if you do, if you are lucky enough to get to the point where a muscle's like really developed and you're like, this is as far as I wanna go, then you can back off. It's not that big of a deal. Well that was the reason why I asked if she had gone through any of our programs all the way through it. Yeah, I figured. That recommendation is pretty consistent from us, right? Like fall. Do you have a baseline? To your point again, you're not gonna wake up overnight and have massive traps or biceps. You're not even gonna go through an entire MAPS antibiotic program and wake up and have massive traps or biceps from that, especially as a female. So going through that, I would still recommend a client to do it so they can just feel it. Like how did you feel at the end of it? And maybe, right? Maybe she's an anomaly and she already had big traps or biceps going in and it made it feel like it was more. Then I say okay, next time when we go through we put that Z-Press in there or we do that combat stretch or we replace it with another movement or exercise that will benefit her overall goals. Our next caller is Nathan from Connecticut. Nathan, what's happening? How can we help you? Hey, how's it going guys? I just wanted to say, you know, thank you for all you guys do for everybody. I know you hear that all the time, but gotta say it now. Yeah, thank you, man. Thank you, bro. Thanks, dude. Yeah, so I'll jump right into it. Got a little bit of stuff to get to before I get to my question. So background on me. 37, I'm 5'11, 180 pounds, tri-sport athlete in high school. Do pretty much every kind of sport that I can do right now, baseball, softball, basketball, that kind of stuff, workout-wise. So over the years I've just kind of developed my own program, just basically, you know, being in military as you can see. It's kind of hard keeping a schedule with a trainer. So I've worked on my own stuff. It's 10-week program, three phases. Last week of the 10 weeks is an off week. So first phase is more the five-by-five strength. And then the following two phases are, you know, bringing reps up, weight down, just to kind of get a full thing going. And that's three days a week full body. So the nutrition side, keep religiously in check. Do intermittent fasting daily, six hour eating window, I had to get about 3,000 calories a day. And then usually it's summertime, so a cheat day a week. And then, you know, I follow Dr. Axe, I follow you guys, Dave Asprey, Ben Greenfield. I know y'all have Max Lugovir on a little while ago. I love that guy. But I'm always trying to do cutting edge for anything that I can get. And then since this incident happened, I've maintained body weight, just keeping that schedule. So just looking to kick back into the workout side. So on May 27th, I broke my right arm. And that was a right arm radial head fracture. So right at the spot at the elbow, it split down the center. It was clean break, didn't have surgery. I just had a sling for a little week, for about a week until I got some range of motion back. And that obviously stopped my workouts. And then I was just doing lower body weight, body weight squats and stuff like that doing ab routines. And then I've been going to physical therapy for about three weeks now. So this is week, this'll be week nine of the break. I did get a x-ray last week so that the bone is actually healed. And so I've started actually trying to ramp up my workouts again. But the therapy's been good for getting, I almost have full 100% range of motion back. And so I haven't broken anything since second grade. So in that regard and my workout routines, I've kept things pretty symmetrical, which is kind of the basis for my question. So I'll go on and ask that and then kind of pose it in two different ways just to make sure I'm getting the question across. So since my longterm plan was to do my program until about the winter time being up here in the cold. And then I was gonna work through the aesthetic program was gonna be the next one I was gonna do. Do you think it would be worth it to work through the new symmetry program now before I do that to try and realign left and right arms? Or do you think muscle memory would be enough to bring the arm back up to par where it was? And then the other way of asking would be would doing the symmetry program accelerate me back to where I was before the break? Do symmetry. Yes, massively beneficial for what you're going through. By the way, if you didn't break your arm with your experience and training and your fitness level, I would still tell you to do symmetry. But considering the fact that you broke your arm and there's no brainer, it's even more of a case, 100%. You're gonna get great, you know what's funny? We wrote the program. We knew it would be valuable. We put it out there and now we're getting reviews and people are messaging us. And the response is even more than we could have anticipated. Like people who had no symmetrical issues, who just were competitive power lifters or strength athletes or whatever. And they're like, man, I had no idea how much of an impact. And we know this, because all of us have experimented and trained with unilateral training. And there's no programming that does it properly. There's really, most people treat it as an afterthought. So yeah, even regardless, if you, like I said, if you didn't break your arm, I would still tell you, go through symmetry, watch what happens at the end. You'll be blown away. It's just interesting, because there's all this like underlying issues or there's ways that we do things and it's just hardwired in us. And I think that, you know, this is just one of those programs that helps to kind of highlight and bring to the surface a lot of those things. So you'll probably find other benefits of it besides just rehabilitating, you know, and getting your other arm back up to speed. So I'm excited for you. Nathan, do you own Prime Pro yet? I don't. Okay, I'm gonna have Doug send Prime Pro to you. The one thing I'll add to what the guys already said because I 100% agree is to keep up the shoulder and wrist mobility stuff. So pull specifically from Prime Pro, the wrist cars and shoulder mobility drills that we have in there and incorporate that into your weekly routine. So even though you're getting full range of motion back in the elbow, one of the things that tends to freeze up a little bit is the range of motion that you had in that shoulder or that wrist. Yeah, they compensate without even knowing it. That's right. And you may not even realize it yet until you get back to like really pushing the weight, which symmetry is absolutely the way to go for programming for that reason. And then in addition to that, I would make sure I'd incorporate some of those wrist and shoulder mobility. Do you have symmetry as well? I didn't yet. And the funny thing was is I was thinking about getting it and then the break happened. I was like, well, that would be the perfect thing to ask about. So we'll send you both. Yeah, we'll send you both. Okay, I really appreciate that guys. Yeah, no problem, man. And thanks for what you do. Thanks for your service. Yeah, I see your uniform there. I see you're in the Navy. Thanks for what you do, man. You're welcome. And one last thing, I have to give a shout out to Ben Patrick, who's the knees over toes guy, who you guys turned me on to him with talking about slid work. And I think it would be awesome if you guys could have him on to talk like you do some other people, because I think he'd be really great for the community. Yeah, I agree. Absolutely, yeah. He's great. Yeah, okay. All right, man. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, thank you. You got it. Yeah, it was a pretty obvious answer. I know, yeah. I mean, it wasn't really a, it was a layup. Well, when I was reading it, I could tell like, I think he kind of knew too. I mean, I think he just wanted to hear. You know why he asked that question? I think a lot of people have this misunderstanding that if they go through a unilateral program that they're somehow going to slow down their bilateral progress. Yeah. You know, like, oh, I'm going to do unilateral stuff, but oh my, you know, I want to get my bench up. What you'll find at the end of training through a cycle of unilateral training like symmetry is your bilateral strength can go through the roof. That's the biggest review that I'm getting from people is they didn't anticipate to break through their PRs by training unilateral, but that's exactly what's happening. So you're not taking a step back. You're moving forward. You're just doing it the right way. You're strengthening and reinforcing things. You didn't really anticipate you needed to address. So I think it's one of those things, the unintended consequences, you get stronger at your other pursuits. Our next caller is Kara from British Columbia, Canada. Hey, Kara, how can we help you? Hey guys, I just wanted to say thanks so much for having me as everybody does. I've just got a couple of notes here. I've been listening to you guys for about three years now. I have had a lot of success running maps programs and listening to your guys advice. So I just can't say how much I appreciate all of the work that you do. Thank you, Brad. So a little bit of background about me. I'm 32 years old. Mom to two girls aged two and four. I'm a wife and I'm currently working at least full time, sometimes more than that in a week. For reference, I'm five foot three and currently weigh about 124 pounds. I've been working out off and on since I was a teenager, but got pretty serious about health and fitness six or seven years ago and have been pretty consistent with training ever since. After having kids, I dieted quote unquote, pretty intensely for a while, cutting my calories and doing, hit training five days a week at one point during the pandemic. And about May of 2021, after listening to you guys talk a lot about reverse dieting and why women should bulk, I finally decided to go ahead and go for it. I reversed my calories in a year from about 1200 to about 2400 calories. Awesome. Thanks, it was awesome. So that took me about a year. I felt like I put on some pretty good muscle running mats programs. And in May of this year, I decided to do a little bit of a cut before summer. I had decreased my calories originally from 2400 to 1700 a day. I was losing a bit too much. I felt like I didn't wanna lose too much muscle with that. So I bumped them up to 1900 at the same time as I started mat symmetry. And I thought that that might work out well. About a week into mat symmetry though, my 1900 calories was not enough. I was hungry all of the time, couldn't seem to stay full. And that's where I've been at. The last few weeks with summer and vacations, I haven't been as consistent running symmetry, but I've still been doing what I can. So phase two has taken me a little bit longer to get through, but I'm still struggling with my 1900 calorie a day goal. And I'm not really sure what my calorie goal should be. So the question was, could my hunger be a sign of building muscle? And if this is the case, where should I go from here? Can I keep up with symmetry and increase the calories or try something new to keep calories low? What any advice you have for me, I'd appreciate. Yeah, no, that's not, yes, I definitely as a sign of building muscle. What you did was is you switched to a new program and it's novel, symmetry is very different from any other program. And so it's very likely that you are stimulating some muscle growth and some strength, definitely strength, because you're probably building stability and balance and balancing the body out. So what you're experiencing is actually a good sign. I would bump your calories up a little bit again. I'd go up to maybe 2100 calories and see how you feel because anytime you change a program, especially if it's a program that's working well for your body, one of the signs you'll see along with strength gains is an increase in appetite. It's a really, really good sign. And because you're lean and fit and because you've done it right in the past, I think that's what's happening. Now, if this were like a beginner, just getting started, I'd say, okay, well, you might not know your body so well, maybe you're just getting used to what it feels like to be in a deficit. But I think based off of what you said and your experience, that's probably what you're feeling. What you're probably experiencing is symmetry was a new novel program. It's probably what you needed. You're building some muscle. So that became a larger deficit than you had anticipated. Okay. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. I do want to comment on something that Sal said and you said that any reference if you were like a new client or a new person getting into working out. And I think it's important that people understand this because it is normal though to be hungry when you're in a cut. Totally. And part of being consistent with that is getting to a place of just being comfortable with that feeling. You're not starving, your body is fed. You would know if you were in any state of where you're starving and that's not the case. So it is very normal to feel that. I do though, agree that 1900 is a lot lower than where you were just currently at. You have a new stimulus. You probably could easily bump your calories up and still lean out like you want. But just so the audience knows that because sometimes there's this like... Oh, I feel hungry. That means... Yeah, yeah, like then I've had clients before that use that, oh, I'm hungry. I must be losing muscle or this can't be good. And so then they are always feeding. Then they're like, I don't know why I can't lose the body fat. And it's like, well, we have to learn to be comfortable with that feeling too. So there is a little bit of normalcy there. But I think you're in a place where you worked your, you reverse dieted, you worked your calories up high enough that you probably just cut too much back with adding in the new stimulus. So yeah, bump the calories up a couple hundred. And then base that off of what you see. So hopefully we can add another 200 or 300 calories to your diet a day and you still feel like you're leaning out. Now, if you don't lean out and you've added those calories then maybe it's just you getting comfortable with that lower calorie intake. Yeah, maybe you just go up to 2,000 calories instead of 2,100 or 2,200. But I mean, just to give you like another example, like if somebody's training right and doing everything right and they've got a good healthy metabolism or things great, and then they change you to a new program that their body was thirsting for. Like it was appropriate for their body. Sometimes often they don't even have to change their calories. They'll just start to get leaner because the new stimulus is building muscle. So it automatically becomes a cut. Consider this, your metabolism is changing all the time. It's not stagnant, right? It's not stationary. So what might have been a deficit before or what might have been maintenance before might be a deficit now because the new program is moving things in the right direction. That's a very, very good thing. So I would say, I guess, so I stick to what I said before, I bump it a little bit and see how you feel. And my guess is you'll still get leaner with a little bit higher calories. Okay, well, that sounds fantastic. Thanks so much. I did just want to point out that, yeah, when I was at the 1700, which was pretty significant deficit, I actually wasn't struggling with hunger. It wasn't until I got up to 1900 the same day that I started symmetry. So I think you guys are absolutely right, but thank you for confirming. It's hard just, you know, you don't want to bump your calories up too much and then have an adverse effect, but I'll definitely take your guys advice. You've never steered me wrong in the past and really appreciate it. Yes, we are in your trust. Thank you, thank you, Kara. Thank you, you take care. You got it. Yeah, that was a sign that I would love hearing from clients. Yeah. And you can hear it. I mean, we've been doing this long enough to where we deciphered it just based off what she said, but you get that every once in a while. I was like, well, why is my appetite going up? And I'm like, well, you added 10 pounds to this. You added five pounds to that. You had 15 pounds of this. You're stronger. I can tell you're building muscle. Like your metabolism has changed. That deficit now is too much of a deficit and that's why you're feeling like that. Well, did she say she worked herself? 27 or 2900, I can't remember. No, no, no. She went from 1200 calories to 22 or 2300 calories. No, then she said she worked up even higher, I thought. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was like 27 or 2900. Yeah, I heard 2700 or 2900. I'm reading off her question. Yeah, yeah. So for her to go down, it was what, 1900? Yeah. Yeah, and then she... 17. 17 and then you had to bump it up. But what she said at the end was like, that was telling, right? Like 1700, I felt fine. Then I switched to symmetry. Now I'm hungry. Like immediate, right? Which is rad. Like that's one of those things. We try to kind of convey that to people. If you just change the stimulus, you can have great response like that. Totally, 100%. Look, if you like our information, head over to mindpumpfree.com and check out our guides. We have guides that can help you with almost any health or fitness goal. Again, they're all free. You can also find all of us on social media. So Justin is on Instagram at Mind Pump Justin. Adam is on Instagram at Mind Pump Adam. And you can find me on Twitter at Mind Pump Sal. This one's really important. And that is to phase your training. If somebody trains for a full year doing a bench press and they're always aiming for five reps, if you compared that person to a person who did a bench press where they did three or four weeks of five reps, but then they did three or four weeks of 12 reps and then three or four weeks of let's say 15 to 20 reps. And then they'll throw in some supersets. At the end of that year, you're gonna see more consistent progress from the person who's moving in and out and less injury.