 Hello, everybody. If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tyler. What's going on, buddy? How you doing? Good sir. Good to be back It's good to have you back. We're gonna be talking about the newest AOS for news Building that hype train hype hype. Let the hype continue I continue to be very excited about everything I'm seeing with one exception as we'll talk about tonight We'll get into it. We're gonna do a little 3.0 look back because you were at a 3.0 You were at a tournament this last weekend along with Tom and Paul Castro and some other people and My question is Tyler. Is that your last 3.0 tournament probably? No, I've got Colorado clan carnage He's telling Vince about that you that's such a wrong getting distracted already by the comments Yeah, May 4th and 5th Colorado clan carnage Shannon with a weekend decadent YouTube channel I think I got all my plugs in there. He's hosting a team event Nice looking forward to that one. Yeah, good time went out to last year But yeah, it was amazing amazing time. We'll talk I'm sure and I'll talk a little about it I mean it's some hobby time, but the reality is I'm done I'm done. Okay. Yeah, I'm done with 3.0 after reading this much stuff about 4.0 I'll tell you Tyler my desire to play current edition of AOS zero tank is on empty Like I'll be playing games. I'll just play the old world or once we get enough 4.0 together That's what I'm playing like give me the give me the PDFs. Let's go release the PDFs You cowards give it to us. Give it to us now I've got some friends who have been playing 3.0 with what we know about 4th edition and having a good time with it You know like using the new commands and I mean sure Could be could be doing things completely wrong or you know completely out of whack But yeah, I'm having a good time apparently so Absolutely. Why is it dark? We can't see the can't see the propaganda behind me. Yeah, that's That's how it's supposed to be Dylan. We've we've had enough of that Yeah, too many too many light shows to me where we'll get those we'll get that pink and blue lighting behind you there Tyler We'll set it up and change my fluorescence. So they're all pink and blue in the office At any rate Before we get into all that of course the other news the news before the news Hmm What do we got? Yeah, I can hear that I can I can I can hear the chaos Go ahead and host the rest of the of the event This is what she does to Vince. I call it cobbling like you're going across the corn cob Perfectly healthy behavior She's a better co-host already than than Tom. I mean he's never once tried to nibble on my beard and I really feel that That's a problem Never remotely showed that level effect probably said he never loves you. Oh He still loves me. Yes Accidentally one time. Yes And I was saying goodbye with to Vince and I said goodbye. I love you and he said I love you and Tom went wow I love you too, buddy Yeah, I'm was like on the phone on the show or something. I can't remember what it was, but yeah, it's been entertaining Everybody hit like for the dogs we got our dog visit in One of them doesn't know how to be quiet. No Aspen's my dog, so she has no chill Leera on the other hand, I can't throw this chair away. This chair is ancient It's like 30 years old and every time I tried to sneak it out of your office once when you were Traveling for work. That's so creepy. Why do you let her do that? And Vince brought it out of the garage where I put it near the trash bin and he was like that's Leera's chair She has to have a seat But it is falling apart. It's tipping sideways. The front is all jacked up She doesn't care. She doesn't care No, I'm blabious. She rolls in mulch and exactly and did things in the yard So anyway, I'm very good. Taking them out. Okay. Thank you. Good to see you All right Got to hang out with Charlie Yeah, charlie that's hangout charlie over the weekend. Yeah, she's uh, she's sweet girl. Sure Absolutely, they got they got their dog from the same place we get we get our dogs. There you go. Yeah dogs At any rate, there you go hit like if you haven't already for the dogs. It's fun But let's get into some news. We've got a rumor engine Little rumor engine Not sure I feel like parts of this look familiar But I was thinking about a day that I couldn't quite place it You got any You got any guesses? I mean, I was like an elder thing Yeah Kind of a elvish, maybe a storm cast vibe Sure, but I like I don't know looks feels feels pretty lumineffy to me. He's my honest answer Yeah, little thing on the left there. Yep. Yep. So, okay That makes sense I mean we have gone too long without new lumineff models. So it's about time absolutely New reclusion Yeah Rune nation chamber opens up This guy axe man Is obviously now this is the only picture I could actually download off of the site because the other ones he has his little buddy Like he has a little friend who comes with him as well his little his little assistant But uh, yeah, man, what do you think of this guy? Love it. Yeah, that Paint scheme on the armor. It's looking pretty sweet. I got kind of You know, it's darker Kind of got some black going on there. It's like some black iron Yeah, looks looks quite amazing. I love the little dudes that go with them Uh, yeah, so I guess this is our paladin unit our three man Well three three person, you know, there's the got a woman in there You can tell by the breastplate by the armor design. That's cool to see But yeah, it looks like it's going to be a squad of three so I'm excited. Oh, uh, I'll I'll spill the beans and hobby but I found out Further evidence that you are in fact evil I'll just leave it at that In relation to to painting Quote unquote evil. I see quotes are very important there Fair enough. Oh, I love it. I love it, man. What do you think? I think it's just great You know part of the challenge here is we retired all of these stormcast sculpts And again, you know, we got into it a little while back and you know, I'm not going to re Relitigate that entire thing But when they released new great sculpts like this, it's really awesome It just makes me so sad that they didn't do the obvious thing again and say like, hey If these are the new three man models, you're you're whatever Uh, from the previous chamber. We just retired. It was only six years old. It could just be these guys They have robes. These guys got cloaks. It's all fine. Everybody's good. Just they're this guy now You know, they're they're this guy. This is the new rules The new rules are this and And these three models are all this guy Right, depending on which generation of armor you have And my and you might think that sounds insane, but like I could play attack marine Right, like it's like let's take the 40k equivalent I could play a tactical marine Sort of basic space marine, right? And he could be in anything from like mark three to mark 10 armor Seven different variants and some of those look pretty wildly different Okay, I mean they'll they're identifiably space marines, but they're there's notable differences And just all of them are attack marines Right. It's just which particular generation of armor does this guy have right And Like so what? Who cares? Yeah I don't need different rules for it. These are my this is my squad All done up and mark six armor because that's the one I like. It's the one I think is cool Right, and that's my whole army and like nobody would bat an eyelash Yeah, totally So why do we not have like this is your heavy paladin unit, right? And so it's these dudes and it's the you know Whatever evocators and and and Oh, you're saying the studio lean into this. Yeah Okay, not not just us as a community, but okay. Yeah, not just us I mean like I think it like like we can't have I know hades I know you care and I'm sorry, but like if they but I do think it's a problem You can't have different individual rules for 10 different things that fill the exact same role Like we can't have five units of heavy paladin dudes. They're going to make new models So just make it like marks on armor. This is this is the new Updated thing and like that's their heavy armor at least then people have licensed to play the figs Sure, they can proxy them now, but it makes it more official And I know it's not perfect. I know it still Isn't having the you know, the unique rules you might want But again, your mark six armor doesn't have special rules Your mark seven armor isn't different than your mark nine Theoretically, there are differences in the world between them right But you know Like I wanted to be I want people to feel licensed to play their stuff and this just this unit Which looks awesome and amazing by the way, like I really do love this model Just further reignited that believe in me that they made such a wrong terrible choice by not just saying all these dudes are this guy Yeah Excuse me So there you go Um centerfall gaming says heck the new stern guard veteran unit actually mixes all of the marks of armor together To show the age of veterans. Yeah, exactly So like you got different looking armors on different looking dudes in one unit It's exactly the same thing wins the last time they got reforged. Do they have the new hotness? Oh, this dude survived for a while. He's still in the old armor, right? He hasn't been sent back up to azer for a long time. Great. Cool Great awesome A plus Rule of core wargaming color scheme almost looks like the mythical color scheme how I used to talk about Yeah, you're not wrong. Uh, we'll get into that and hobby All right, so Paul Castro. I did You're a saint And an a-hole at the same time. I don't know how you managed to pull it off, but you do it. Uh, love you my friends So Cool be good on these lovely new storm cast. Yeah We want to see more. I mean look ultimately tyler. There's only one problem with this sculpt Yeah And that's that it's not more scaven like I've seen Clearly we've gotten plenty of storm cast in the past couple years show dem rat Boys, okay Show them Stop it. Sure. Sure. We'll get one next week Alternating weeks. You don't you don't get every week. We should be every week. We should be every day And then they release the book and then the army and then the figs. Let's go now now tomorrow. I gotta start painting. All right Next up, okay. Yeah, so Sunday preview last sunday dark oath marauder. We've got the dark oath Army set coming out. Yep with uh, yeah bunch of new marauders the new marauder cav some sweet-looking beast thing that I don't know what it's called but looks amazing and They're releasing the battle tome Which is not gonna last too long, but hopefully there'll be a lot of overlap in In the third ish edition third edition to fourth edition rules here Uh, I can't remember what you thought about these models. I think they're they look pretty sweet to me Uh, they're not Yeah, not really my cup of tea, but I've got a friend who's Excited about the full-on conan army. He's getting two of these boxes So I'm gonna scroll around the page here for people Uh, my short answer is cool beans. Like I really don't like to get the main guy on horse I really don't um, he just I something about him just really bothers me. Um The actual barbarians are they're fine. They're fine It's just not my particular speed in this scale. I don't know why but like the motion the design I know this is gonna land for some people and I'm excited for those people like They're certainly amazing and good quality sculpts. They're just not my particular cup o tea, but that's but yeah, but they're great They're great. Like it's good just not good for me So That's all I've always and that's as I've said for years and years and years The thing in chaos that appeals to me was never the half naked Viking conan knockoff dudes It was the wall of steel chaos warriors chaos knights chosen Chaos lords like I I love that look right, that's You know Picking up hero quest back in the day. I looked at that chaos warrior and I was like this dude is cool Right, and that's that's just that's I am what I am but there's nothing wrong So Cool Uh Oh need non-masked horse head options. I thought there was a horse head that wasn't masked I know he hasn't obviously he hasn't yeah, but and there's two horse heads I thought one of them didn't have a mask, but maybe not maybe I'm wrong. Maybe one of them just doesn't have a big horn so Yeah, I can't remember Yeah, but it looks like there's yeah quite a bit of customization options They did an article about that as well So it's good to see and as usual we won't cover the rules until we just do the full battle tone. So Yeah, an article on the rules, but wait on that And Yeah, but anything else for the initial news. Well, there's one more. There's also some old world sculpts releasing This is worth worth calling out Uh In that I think one of the greatest models that gw has released in many years will be releasing as part of this Trunch of old world stuff as well as a bunch of old goofy models. They're re-releasing. Oh my god Like the bone giant being re-released is truly comical to me But in this is lady Elise Dushard, which is this model right here the the sorceress on the unicorn I obviously have a plutonian army And I just think this is one of the most beautiful things that they have done In a long time. This is gorgeous It's So much negative space So much just subtle volumes It's really really really beautiful And uh, I love it and um, yeah, I think this is just like awesome And I was very excited to see it finally uh being released. So Super cool. Have you have you painted one? Or are you going to? I I would very much like to I have not but I would very much like to Very good. Um, so because I think she rules I definitely want one for my army. That's what I'll say. Mm-hmm I enjoy playing my plutonians not as much as my tomb kinks It's more fun to just like ignore half the game's rules when you're playing the old world and that's what tomb kinks But this thing is just beautiful So, yeah, there you go. That's all yeah I felt bad about my boring comments a few shows back because obviously we never want to I mean, I think hopefully most everybody knows that's a joke. I haven't played it I have no no means of actually judging this game. Oh, you're good. I don't think anybody took offense. Yeah, yeah You never want to yuck, you know, we don't want to do that. No, we don't we're never going to yuck somebody else's yuck. Absolutely well But I did see a beautiful army of plutonians at rob's I think rob did an event over the weekend And yeah, somebody had a fantastic plutonian army and I feel like I saw this model In one of the photos as well as the new Dude lower here the yeah plutonia lord on pegasus So, yeah, it looked awesome. Yeah, I do. I do love a lot of these scopes these plutonian scopes Including some of the older ones, man, like the minute arms look pretty sweet. Still. Oh, sure. They're fine They're they're very they look good when all together individually when you look at them They're kind of derpy, but they actually look really great as a ranked unit um I agree with uh average joes and once again, I wish we knew who painted this model so they could get the credit Where credit is due whoever painted this did an amazing job. I absolutely agree Uh for for for working basically and about that much of the like they had that much tonal range to work in And yet it's just it's all there. It's gorgeous. I love it when somebody works in a very very very limited color palette Like most of this model is white Right But it's just like exploring these very subtle differences between everything That's really great Um, so anyways get on get on you kevin. Appreciate it Uh, I don't have to like team tyler forever. Uh, all right, cool. That's our that's our news Uh, let's go to some Uh pick oh the week Tyler yeah for everybody No aos pick leaning into the Tom the evolution as we were talking about pre-show just can't can't be bothered apparently so I Tyler actually could point out that this this slide from like three to six picks to like whatever Yeah, because there I hope there's a bottom at some point here Because we'll find out I guess. I mean tom's scraping it pretty close. Are you gonna have company down there? So this is probably not necessary, but just in case there's any soul listening to this Who has not started watching x-men 97? By by all means start immediately It's phenomenal if you watch the cartoon even he didn't watch the cartoon, but you enjoy superhero comics It's just amazing really all you need is a vague awareness of x-men in the 90s. You don't really have any background It's fine. It's not like it. I mean like yes, it continues on from that story But it doesn't have like threads that really that are super relevant. Um No, I agree x-men 97 is fantastic And to be clear the original x-men animated series was basically garbage Um, it was schlock four children that was mostly bad It was people failing to use their powers in even a commonsensical way Okay, like it was just really most episodes were really really bad There's a couple real standouts, but but for the most part it was pretty bad Like the original teens reading turtles. Okay I don't know about you. I was a normie child. I don't know you're you were some non normies Weirdo, that's fine. I loved it personally then speaking for myself. I didn't say I didn't watch it. I watched it I'm just like I went back and watched it now Okay, no, that's that's fair and was like, wow, this is really bad. It's really bad I remember at the time thinking that's stupid. Why don't they do this thing or this thing or this thing? Okay, because I was I've been an avid reader of the x-men since the mid 80s um but the Like clarimont's run was genius top to bottom. Okay, when chris clarimont started his run He had an arc story that he had planned to have magneto take over the x-men by episode and become a good guy of sorts by By issue 300 that's how far he planned into the future. Wow 300 issues. That's a hell of a plan Okay So, I mean like, you know clarimont really knew what he was doing I stand behind him as like sort of the person who had the greatest singular vision of what What the x-men were about? I don't think we'd have anything that we care about with the x-men today if it wasn't for him um But this new show really gets it right because it's like it remembered what the x-men are actually all about Which is just a bunch of people sitting around in emotional and relationship entanglements having arguments fighting with each other talking about who's in love with who You know getting in very basic arguments about life and taking everything like dramatically seriously It is a soap opera where people shoot laser beams out of their eyes. That's why it's good That's what clarimont's x-men always was when it was at its best It was just like general hospital plus laser beam eyes. You got magic. Okay. So that's it Um There you go. Yeah, it's been a it's been a lot of fun. My facebook algorithm right now is full of x-men related content You know seeing a bunch of jim lee's Artwork from the that time frame early 90s. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, oh man. We had it so good Like it was yeah, it's just amazing. So Somebody mentioned we should probably shut this up Adept con 2025. We got some big news. Oh, yeah. Yes. I didn't put that in the news That really should have been in there But I've got it's okay. Let me do it as my picks the week because here we go. I got three I'm gonna come picking up your slack So pick of the week number one. I'll add that to it Is uh adept con 2025 being in the baird center in milwaukey check out adept con calm Obviously, they've got the details there And Everything about it. So I'm I am very excited for the move personally The renaissance was not big enough to hold this event anymore. It just wasn't I like the renaissance I thought it was a nice hotel But I hate it that there was nowhere to walk for food all of that kind of stuff. Whereas Uh, you know nova Moving to that hotel in downtown dc. We have all these great places amazing places to walk for food. I we We walked to a restaurant Last year it's a bit of a hike, but it was worth it Maybe like a a mile or so from the convention center for nova and it's the best meal I've ever had in my life Like just bar none incredible. Okay and um That's it may dawn in dc. If anybody's curious may y d an If this is an incredible restaurant go check it out. Um, but anyways, um the So I'm very happy with the move easy access to restaurants nice location lots of space should be great so That's number one My pick number two is going to be Uh, if you want to see some more deep dive and thoughts when some of the articles We're going to talk about today in the news To go check out our good buddy rob the honest war gamer who's been doing some killer coverage of each individual article He had a really nice talk through. I thought today of the combat Uh Stuff like that the sort of implications of the combat article that we'll talk about here later today I just thought it was really nicely explained and it's full of cow puns Which are funny and it's funny when rob laughs at his own jokes. Uh, it does make me laugh very much Uh, so that's my pick number two pick number three Tyler, I don't know if you noticed But our brethren over in 40k This weekend They had a bit of a controversy pop up. Did you did you did you happen to turn on the internet? Yeah, this weekend. Uh, I turned on Keith Lee's internet. Thank you very much I saw somebody report to the I don't know if you know what Keith Lee is But that was my favorite descriptor of the internet. So anyway, that's a little little thing from tiktok I did hear about that crazy Yeah, um, you know Like I won't we won't go into it in detail here because it's not our game um But like we don't generally talk about 40k, but I will say Man, I was there for it. I was there for the tea. Okay watching Thread after thread after thread and twitter thing just pop up and like perfectly reasonable people get responded to by Lunatics constantly was amazing. All right. Uh, so, you know, look I all I can say is after watching That this weekend is boy. I'm glad I play aos if you ever needed A reason to come over here Aos we don't like we had some controversy with some when some models got discontinued But that felt like a source of righteous anger, you know, this is right Yeah, woof and it wasn't half as much as this At any rate that leads to my third pick of the week, which is uh, so Uh, very cool, uh friend of the show pleasant Kenobi who is obviously is People probably know if you know him from his uh channel on magic the gathering Another vince in the world, which is always great to see Uh, he has a new war gaming podcast and so uh thought he'd shout it out I linked him down in the description and his first episode he has hellstorm Mikey on And uh, they um there they talk about this controversy In uh in in great in great detail. Uh, so go check it out. Um I didn't pick up the the origination of this was this like an article that they released talking about Female custodes or custodians. Have you say that or was it like what was the origination of all this? The origination was part of the new In the new What do they call them? They don't call them battle types. Uh codex's codex's. Okay. There you go In their new codex There is a The sort of you know, they have the narratives and story in the in the books, of course, right One of the sort of main opening stories is from the point of view of a custodian who is a female like That's pretty much it and so then that raised a lot of questions instantly and warhammer twitter basically responded and said No, there have always been female custodies And that was then just Off to the races we went that was it um So that that was that was it it shot off it popped um So, you know, it was uh Yeah I'm not gonna lie I do scrolled that because I just I was addicted to it. I couldn't help myself I was traveling some okay like I had to travel for work. So, you know, I spent a lot of time in airports, right? You're just bored And I was just like plenty to read here. Just yeah, so At any rate go check out pleasant Kenobi. He and helstorn mickey have a great conversation on it It's really good and and kenobi's a good dude. Um, we're gonna have him hopefully on the show here sometime Um talk about Because he's he's a warhammer enthusiast Okay, seeing the aosinol, you know, I guess we'll find out. Okay. If not, we're gonna bring him over. We're gonna bring him over So there we go Um, okay I agree pepo the memes have been great. It's the the memes have been very funny This has been a great time for for for meme harvesting. All right uh Very good. So with that selling us out of the way, let's turn to some hobby time uh Tyler you were at tournament this last weekend. I assume that was most of your hobby time. How'd it go? Yeah It it was a lot of fun. Uh, so first time That's kentucky had a gt as far as I know Uh, it was called act. Let's see trash Flash in the bluegrass Takes the cake for the best name certainly of any event that I've been to this year. Sorry to everybody else, but that's an amazing name Tom did really well. Tom went for one He brought his fleshy to courts I had some rough ones at four out of five games where it's closest things to get Ended up two two one So not the best, but it's fine. It happens What were you playing? You're you're so white oblite. Yeah, talk about the work Talk about the wargog anthony. Oh, you're like a little devil on my shoulder and and the angel. I don't know how you pull it off so Yeah fights, you know the wargog. It'll be too soon, man I mean, I don't think I'm at the stage of burning wargogs But my gw did that for you. Oh, okay. Good. All right, excellent Yeah, I had quite a moment in game one where Manfred went in to kill a wargog who had five wounds left Four did 16 damage and my opponent Kindly rolled 13 four upwards Pretty good to leave leaf in the live on two wounds And then he's like, ah screw it. Let's let's go for it. Let's start staring in his turn and Manfred took 11 wounds Without him rolling a single one or two Which is you take these six more wounds that you probably know whenever you roll a one or two on the wargog. Yeah. Yeah And so by my manfred's and then he moved up the wargog and he got the double and He's like, let's first first time work. Let's do this again. Let's run it back Do the exact same things of war dry 16 wounds full health war dry never roll the single one or two Bye bye war dry and my hopes and dreams of doing well at this tournament As that little dude's just like Just homelandered 700 points of your army right off the table Uh, let's see 840. Yeah, okay. There you go. Sure. I mean, who's counting at that I mean, yeah, no, you're not wrong man for whatever happens to manfred. He deserves it. I can attest to that. So Yeah, that I was doing my best to keep that man, it's hard sometimes to keep the salt and check It's really hard. I mean, it's little toys, right? You've been we've been doing this for how long and you think you'd think I could have you know, borrow some that hay was in Yeah, no, gareth you're 100 right clearly a skill issue. Absolutely Clearly that's all of my friends said as well. So anyway, I'll show you about this but uh, yeah great games the The grind strategy is the achilles heel of soul blight. Thank god I had two games that Uh, could not keep, you know, turns out vents that teleporting in the hero phase any hero phase That's not good enough to keep your vampire lord alive. That's not quite enough cheating You know, like one time you gotta cheat harder I cheat harder. I could not get away from the 36 inch spell portal with infertile gateway going through it You know Lost a game came down to that at the very end. It was on nexus collapse. I would have won that by one point Uh, yeah kept so but they need that achilles heel. Otherwise, they would be they'd be pretty ridiculous right now They're already really strong I uh I I really truly truly hate spell portal. That's the one like I've been I um, you know, I The last time I played bone splitters at a tournament. I had my storm cast army and I had several pretty small army. I had, um Uh, crondis in there. So like, you know, the wargox like a legitimately scary thing to me, right? Because I don't have a lot of mortal wound protection. I don't want him to stare off my big dragon You know, and I played around those things like pretty aggressively until I could like staying way back until I could just like Absolutely slam ram jam the entire unit and pile in and eat that little moron Right, but they're they're tough. Yeah, because if the if the dice break against you on the ward, it's just like Ah beans Right, so, you know Another friend went c3p. Oh, I mean he said well, yeah, the percentage wrongs and not quite c3p. Oh, but at 1.38 percent chance of What happened happening Pretty good number of times that he rolled the three up. Yeah, so Uh, yeah, shout out to rick in the in the chat I had a fantastic game against rick with the seven out beautiful seven F army. Uh, had a lot of fun rick Thank you for the amazing game. Yeah, it was it was an absolute blast Uh, shout out to clay and company. They did an awesome job with the event a lot of fun kept it They had little sayings, you know, every time they were making announcements Uh, you know, like 15 minutes left or whatever. So you kept it a light mood It was it was a blast empire of corpses cast Yeah, man empire of corpses is great unless you cannot roll a three up or four up That's uh, that's another skill issue. So You gotta you gotta you gotta roll harder Tyler that's the problem where you put enough roll on it Where you just you know, you can't just like you can't just give it some weak roll You gotta you gotta get the sauce on there I've given that lecture a lot then so you're not wrong. Yeah, absolutely Well for me, uh, my hobby time, uh, was not full of that, uh, but I Uh, painting up this lady. She's actually almost done. Uh, so this is this is gonna be like unbelievably impossible to see There you go. This is the uh, what's her name? Beautiful Little the second car Um, you'll notice she doesn't have her snake Um, that's because I'm just painting her up to be a vampire Who is you know, somebody who uses magic that works with the dead You know a wizard who specializes in that sort of thing and um I'm I'm painting her up for not to use as a war hammer figure. I mean, maybe I'll use her as a vampire lord or something She's on the appropriate base But um, but no she's being painted up for a different game Yeah, okay A different game that I'm painting this figure for Yeah That's all I'll say Great. Okay. Yeah, we'll see what we go from there Interesting. All right Let's see best guest pairings So, okay. Well, I'm excited to see the photos I'm sure they gorgeous. That's been my hobby time. Uh, working on this very fun lady She is a really cool sculpt. I wanted to paint her since I first saw her so absolutely I think I saw Richard Gray did did her for Golden demon. Yeah had had her in his uh, uh, as his like aos single. Yeah, I don't think he used the snake either I think he just had the bottle Apparently we all don't like the snake. We're all getting rid of that snake So I do need to cover a couple things here Connor. Yeah, man. I'll be at the 27th games explosion aos Springdale, Arkansas Looking forward to it a lot. Uh, a lot of names didn't recognize so Travis and I are going to make it out Uh, so, you know this guy Anthony Pocastro. Have you heard of him? I've heard of him Yeah He's something else, isn't he? So I found out some key information over the weekend Uh, this event that I was so excited and I'm so excited to do with you I've known you for for what feels like a very long time and we've never played a game of warhammer together No, which we've talked a lot about like I mean, we've been at warhammer tournaments to be Many times and hung out and stuff like that, but we've never played either Uh, on the same side or opposite sides of the table Exactly And so it's going to be happening at Holy Havoc finally getting out to the Wonderful Steve Herner and his events. Yeah, and Well, you failed to mention That in order for our team to be eligible for awards hobby awards You have to paint Your army. Yeah Yeah, correct. Yeah, that was that was some key information that never made it into my ear holes And I yeah, well tom and pollcaster were kind enough to let me know that so Good work by you. I just assumed you read the pet. You are sure You are further evidence quote-unquote evil so I'm apparently locked in at this point. This is happening and further evidence of it We got into discussion with pollcaster over wherever we were and He was like, yeah, I got a bunch of airbrushes that you can borrow like all right. Cool, man. Yeah I can learn how to airbrush that sounds good And for in tom's basement and I'm entering and he's like here. Give me your delivery. Jess I'm entering my my and The sob dude. He You know what I'm about to say, right? He like bought me everything The thing for an airbrush and it showed up today and it was like a huge box I don't even know how it was like an air compressor and that's time to get primed and time to get basecoat and let's go Oh my god, it's ridiculous Oh, yeah, uh I need to get different friends. I think that that's That's that you get there. My friends are way too good at manipulation and guilt and subterfuge And all right, we can move on but yeah, I figured you know, that's fine. I'm just glad we're finally getting you painting It's it was gonna come to you eventually and and frankly I'm excited about it Look, you've got new ruination storm cast coming. What more could you want in your life, tyler? This is great. This is great. You you will literally just be playing the box set. You do the storm cast I'm doing some scaven. We've taken the the verses box set. We flipped the script. We're friends now We're friends now Beautiful Now Vince well Yeah, anthony we got brice. I think I can rope rise. Maybe line. We can rope in some locals Yeah, I'm sure you'll well, it's not hard If we go you put some thin to paint in you pull down the trigger You overspray like crazy and mess some stuff up then you learn And then you clean out your airbrush and you do it again. You do it again. Eventually you figure it out. It's all right You'll make some nice. Don't let that sexy She also got her first airbrush here Uh and start loving it. Yeah, nice. Yeah, it's a game changer. It's a game changer Uh All right, so With that Yeah, tyler, you're ready to turn to the big aos four news I mean it feel like we've been talking for we're only 30 40. We're not doing too bad 40 minutes. We're doing great Doing good. All right. I'm sure we will make a lot of hay out of this. All right I'm being long winded. We're still okay. It's a good sign. You're good Let's turn to our newest oops Okay, let's turn to our now new recurring segment for the next several months Which is going to be most of the shows Which is just talking about aos news. I mean this is this is what it is How battle traits and battle formation shape your army and hashtag new aos You know, I looked for that hashtag not really not not catching on uh as much as you'd help I was not really trending At any rate Let's get into it. So The way you build your armies has changed And those changes can affect everything else blah blah blah Battle traits and battle formations. Okay, cool Storm cast people there they are dragons got it Lord bastion carthalos best most awesome dude in the storm cast faction Chad amongst chads. All right So battle traits are a series of widespread abilities unique to your army Some of these will feel similar to existing army rules But all have been tightened up and codified to work with a new ability system where everything's an ability As we'll see we finally got some actual real abilities here in these articles like the the baseline Abilities upon which everything else rests So thank you. I don't know why that wasn't article one. Here's move shoot charge and fight Right. All right. Okay But anyways Great So for for instance storm cast eternals have four different battle trade abilities that apply to the army as a whole While heroic actions are gone So there's our first confirmation. We suspect it as much And i'm fine with it. I'm super fine with it. Okay Their finest hour Continues to power up storm cast eternals for a turn at a time. So now their finest hour once per turn army Your hero phase declare prick a friendly storm cast eternals unit that has not used this ability this battle to use this ability Effect for the rest of the turn add one to wound rolls for that unit's combat attacks and one to save rolls for that unit As we know from reading ahead into the other article, there's not much save bonus in the in the in the game anymore They talked about how much they've gutted that out So they talked about how basically a couple of armies that I suspect are meant to be heavily armored So, you know, you've probably got something similar on like, I don't know Like chaos warrior dudes or something like that, right? Like other other people who are sort of like they're the heavy armor people Yeah, right Yeah Couple of them probably have some plus one to save and they said they got rid of the rest good No more save stacking. I love that they specifically said save stacking like use the real terms for it Right. Yeah, we know we all know Uh So and then This is great. No longer restricted to heroes now storm casts themselves are the ones who have their finest hour the best day ever Best day ever now a storm cast ability. Tyler. What do you think about this right here? What are you feeling? It feels right. I mean if there were an army that right should be Well, I'm a little unclear exactly from that article today We'll get into it. How it's going to work What what we're looking at, but yeah in general this certainly makes sense to me That storm cast would be right one of the if you're going to have an army that can generally stay on a three up save It's going to be storm cast. They should be Not weak to rend they should be weak to what's now called mortal damage Which is generally what they've always been weak to right exactly and so yeah, yeah, it makes a lot of sense Yeah, I think if storm cast are running around most of the time and like just sort of by default They have a three up save like if that's unless they get hit by like a mega rend model, you know Yeah, they have a three up save Good Good great a plus like I'm happy about that That's fine because they should be elite and that's how it should work and then mortal damage should basically melt their faces right off Right, that's right. That's what happens. So okay Yeah, cool. Like I want them to be tanky. They're supposed to be Uh, and I'm excited about some we got when we get to the next article We'll see if indicters as well and those those look I really like how that's looking Um, but we'll we'll get there. All right, then we got scions of the storm uh, which is Uh, sort of two abilities here. You have one to put them up in reserve and one to bring them down Okay, so that's that's all this is One of them's in the deployment phase if there are more friendly storm cast eternal units on the battlefield Then there are set up in reserve pick a friendly storm cast eternal unit that has not been deployed Uh, and then in fact set up that unit in reserve in the celestial realm. It has now been deployed And then in the game in your movement phase you pick a friendly storm cast eternal's unit that is in the celestial realm Set up that unit anywhere on the battlefield more than nine inches from all enemy units Cool You will do this before the enemy does any of their abilities other than reactions Obviously, that's important to say because remember in every phase the active player does all of their abilities first So you will do your moves and your scions the storm and bring your people down and then then The opponent will react they'll do their redeploy or whatever else they happen to have All right, because that's end of that's that's their actions So remind me When does this happen? When do we do abilities in the in the sequencing? In every phase the active player does all their abilities that they want in any order that they want Okay Every time I do one I declare it If there's reactions those happen all all declare steps happen If there's a reaction those happen And then once the reactions resolve the effect of their original declarability results, I just go in order Okay So previously, of course the signs of the storm Unit that has set up that unit with the battlefield. Yeah, we would do that at the end of our movement phase So when are it just says your movement phase? Again, they've probably already answered this and I'm forgetting an earlier article. I'm just forgetting So is this meaning that I'm that we're doing this at a specific time in the movement phase? Nope. There are no more subsections or components or anything It's just it's your movement phase So you could move a guy and then drop a thing and then move a guy and then drop a thing And so on you use all of your abilities however you want The only thing that has some differentiation to there is in combat how that works. Yeah Yeah, all righty So remember there after the important part to understand is that the All of the enemy's Abilities right that the non active players abilities are going to happen after you do all of your abilities as long as they're not a reaction, right? Yeah, and so like you're going to drop your people down and then they can just redeploy away from you Right like that because redeploy isn't Isn't in any way tied to like somebody moving within. It's not a reactive ability. It's just a thing you can do Right, so so they do have that capability. Now. Obviously, it doesn't say anything in here about restricting movement after they're set up Okay um My guess is this is actually My guess is this probably has like keywords like move or something like that because you can never use more than one Moveability that could be a way it goes. Maybe we just got a little cut of it that doesn't have the little keywords Yeah, or it could be that like if a unit set up it can never move that could just be in the core rules Like there's lots of ways right there, but i'm sure it's you know part of it I don't I do not think you can move after you can't vanguard wing it. Yeah, he can't vanguard wing it i'm sure man Okay Yeah I yeah gareth said the question is whether or not you can move after setting up I'm just believing the answer is no because come on now We've learned this lesson like 20 times. There's no reason there's no way we're going into the new edition like Yeah, just drop your army down and then march it forward like no We we did this we fixed it like seven times already We've learned our lesson. Okay, so i'm sure it's just either it's a generic rule or in the actual book Science the storm has like the move keyword in which case you couldn't both use the move ability and this ability because you can only use one ability Of a certain keyword in a phase. So So it's it's one of the two Have we learned that lesson vince have we I hope so stewart. I really do I really do. I believe we have Uh Matt rosin's team or or smart people. I think i'm sure there'll be some misses here or there, but this one feels Little bit obvious Okay. Yeah Uh Yeah, I don't think that'll be the case not on I think it's just like in the combat phase They have to sequence things in a particular order because of the way fighting and pre-combat stuff works But I think every other phase is just they've said before you use your abilities. They use theirs Done. That's the timing. Just that's it beginning and end Which is cool and then finally Some battle traits may be commands with associated costs such as heaven sent This powerful once for battle ability can return to destroy to the battlefield at half strength ready to smash aside The enemies of sigmar once again once for battle your movement phase for one cp Uh declare pick a friendly non unique stormcast eternal's infantry or cavalry unit that had started the battle With two or more models and that has been destroyed to be the target In fact set up a replacement unit with half the number of models from the target unit rounding up More than nine inches from all enemy cool Okay Great good Fine Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting to see the economy of this one, you know Is it something I suppose it'll be According to the need at the time, you know, do you need Probably more of that than anything. Do you need a dragon back? Right a story, you know one storm drake guard Get back on dragon Yeah, or do you need Five liberators, you know for a unit of 10 If I'm understanding right, we're still looking at the potential of a unit of 10 liberators Assuming a size of five they can be reinforced once if I remember from a previous article So, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'm really glad that they they've got this right. They've expanded it out It's not just redeemer keywords the liberators vindictors, etc. So Yeah, it seems good. And that's your that's your Assumingly that's your abilities because it's stormcast have four. So I'm guessing this is the four Uh, so, you know stormcast have their lightning strike that they've always had as well as they got finest hour and uh This once a game replace a unit half a unit thing now. So that's that's your stormcast rules What do you think about that tyler? Are you ready to play stormcast with that set of rules? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, it seems good. I mean that's some of the Defining elements of when you think of stormcast. I think of this stuff, uh, of course my dragon example probably would not apply Uh, non-unique stormcast infantry or cavalry. I doubt a dragon is gonna be qualifying as a cavalry keyword War scroll anytime soon. But I don't know that's it. It's a dude writing a thing Feels like cavalry to me. It might be might not be wrong. Uh, yeah, yeah seems good enough Okay, but of course formations. That's not the only rules you have Yes, these are your generic army rules But there's more But but but wait it gets worse. Uh, we also have battle formations Now, I'm not gonna lie tyler. This is the first thing I've read. I'll just I'm gonna I'm gonna give a little spoiler here This is the first thing I've read Out of all of this that honestly kind of let me down Okay Okay, and we'll we'll get into why But like I don't hate this. It's not bad. It's just it let me down Okay So let me talk about why But let's talk about what these things are first Each faction pack the decks of cards released alongside the new edition contains four battle formations Uh, so you can lean in a particular strategies and experiment with new army options from the start Take the thunderhead host Which prioritizes mixing and matching units from the various chambers with its synchronized strikes passive ability Empowering warrior chamber units in combat while they are within 12 inches of unit from members of a different chamber Okay, so let's see what that means Thunderhead host passive ability add one to hit rolls for combat attacks made by friendly warrior chamber units While they are wholly within 12 inches of any friendly non-hero storm cast eternal units that do not have the warrior chamber keyword Okay, so encouraging you to mix up your units some right you got some liby raiders and they get plus one to hit if there's some extremist dudes nearby some some Dracotheon dudes or whatever sure Some fulminators. I don't know whatever something there we go pick a storm cast unit. Okay Fine All right. Okay Let's read the other one here storm drake guard dracotheon guard and other warriors and heroes of the extremist chamber often battle within a lightning echelon They're oncoming storm ability conferring one unit per turn the strikes first effect In combat on a roll of three plus this kind of flexibility extends across the factions We'll be seeing more what they can do when we come to the faction focuses next month First of all do the faction focuses sooner. Oh my god. I can't believe I have to wait till next month. That's so far away Okay So lightning echelon once return army any combat phase Uh declare pick a friendly extremist chamber unit that charge this turn And effect roll a die on a three up that unit has the strike first for the rest of the turn Or has strike first for the rest of the turn. Okay, fine Now this one is okay This one I don't like all right And the reason I don't like these is because honestly when they first spoiled these What they said of battle formations is you know, we're moving them away from the more traditional sub factions Where it was sort of encouraging a lot of like really what they were saying was encouraging a lot of spammy behavior Take this unit All and then you know, this unit has a special ability. So now You just take a bunch of them Right linear builds linearity. Yeah And instead they said no what we're going to do instead Is we're going to make it so You can Like it'll there'll be more about how you want to fight right And so I thought cool will have like one that's about you know castling up or and then one that's about Alpha striking or one that's about you know being mobile and skirmishy and one that's about Being sort of hard hitting and pushing forward and getting people off objectives, right and that kind of thing you know, but but then doing like alpha strike beta strike sort of uh tactics right and These aren't that Like the warrior chamber one. Yeah, I guess it encourages you it is a little more open than the classic ones would have been because it's certainly an anti pure spam, right because obviously it means nothing if you're just going to take all the same unit you have to kind of 50 50 your army is the most is the incentive you sort of have there, right or something like that 60 40 your army You know what I mean, right? Yeah, yeah um But the lighting echelon is just like Okay, I I want multiple units of extremist things So I can just always having a chance to activate this like why would I take oncoming storm and then use one extremist chamber unit? Right, I would very least this should be the majority or you know the plurality of my army Sure. Yeah, and so like yeah, so it's just like okay, and then if that's true Then you know, I hope the war scrolls really encourage me like the hope is still not lost I just want to be clear but I really do want These like the war scrolls could still encourage you to be dispersed across them, right? And I think we did get some evidence of that as we'll see with the vindictor But This right here in in a vacuum in the void Says cool. Just if if storm drake guard were real good Just take a whole army of them and they all thin can access this ability Like yes, only one of them can use it a turn, but I'm only going to need one of them to use it a turn right so Okay Like that's based on just how combats are going and who's charging and whose turn it is Realistically to bust turn order open. I only need to use it on one of them, right? So, you know, I I that is like Not as good to me. I was really hoping they'd lean more into sort of Fighting styles or something I guess I don't want it more broadly tactics Than referencing Unit types and I understand they didn't say like pick a friendly storm drake guard, which is how the old ones would have been worded So it is more broad, but it's still Not broad enough in my estimation Yeah, yeah No, I generally aligned with that concern. Yeah Obviously, we will have to see when we see everything We've talked a little bit about this this as you know, man is is one of my Areas of emphasis as well, right as the guy who loves to promote Highlander and which incidentally I was so excited to see Plastic crack have A article that came out today or yesterday about an event that had a Highlander element It wasn't quite the the hard Highlander. Yeah, we had to be nine or more worse goals It could be lower number, but yeah, love seeing that So, you know, there's other variables here, right that are going to influence List building composition, which we've talked about before A number of levers or ingredients that go into this recipe. So this is one We'll see how dominant is, you know, how strong it is. Yeah, and hopefully yeah, hopefully it'll balance out in the wash And it won't be too bad. I mean like in in counter to my own argument. First of all, garret, you shut your dirty mouth Uh, that's number one number two is like These are pretty minimally weak sub faction or whatever battle formation abilities, right? Like there's not a huge amount here The lighting echelon is betting your whole thing on a dice roll, right? There could be multiple turns in a row where this just does nothing because you roll the one or two The synchronized strikes is like plus one to hit For probably what's going to end up being like liberators or people like that So I don't know that it's that huge a deal right um And so like if these are all that kind of minimal Um Okay like Fine, maybe there's such a weak incentive and the incentive on the war scrolls to actually have a diffuse set of tools And the toolbox is strong enough that it sort of legitimately doesn't matter But then my concern is going to be what happens when you just don't have any any battle formations that really match how you want to fight Right like hopefully there's always something that fits, but I guess time will tell so Yeah, yeah, I mean there's Always going to be potential for winners or losers, right with these various categories. So yeah, this is one layer Battle formations, you're going to have winners or losers going to have differentiation. Hopefully We will continue to get better. They will continue to get better at the the net balance with these each of these layers But yeah, I take your point though, right? I see what you're you're laying down It'd be neater if it was like Uh, okay, like in my mind it would have been cooler if it was like Thunderhead host whenever you are You get plus one to hit Whenever you are attacking whenever your unit. I'm this isn't in proper rules word. So please excuse me like I'd have to rewrite this But you get the point You get plus one to hit whenever you're making an attack Against a model that is contesting an objective and that objective is not Holy within your territory or something like that, right? So like it's the hence saying you're the get out and go You know attack people army, right? Or you could imagine the alpha beta strike ability like being something like um Your models get you know models in your unit get plus one to wound If there is another one of your friendly units Uh engaged with that unit that did not charge this term right Okay, right. So you you sit there you take the hit you counter punch. That's a clear Sort of strategy, right? And that's how the rules could be speaking to that. How did you build your army to function? Here's some rules to to sort of lean into that play style for me that would have been Like way more interesting than what we got here So That's it. Yeah, no fair enough. Yeah, we will we will see but Uh, obviously the hopefully we're nowhere near close the potential worst version of this Which is you know, roughly analogous to where we were with 3.0 valetums as you were saying where you read this knight hunt Book and you see the take this one unit. Do you take only this one unit? Yeah, sure I mean, we're definitely a step in the right direction. Yeah Yeah, so, yeah, okay Uh Charles I went Charles said I wonder if the problem is them writing 90 of these four for each faction. That's a pretty limited number of fighting styles Sure, but you know, you could like the combination of how that army That the the theme of that army and the various fighting styles like what they have should produce a Venn diagram of four usable things, right? Um Sporadic has said it's the curse of early edition sub faction traits the first set of books will always have toned down traits And the fun strong ones will come around the middle of the edition I mean not with this stuff because this is all because everything's getting written at once like Assumingly the indexes indices will come out and this is like the stuff for all You know, you got 24 armies or whatever. So like everybody should be on Quote unquote equal footing as far as that timing goes at least Um, so yeah, okay Uh, cool. Good excellent Um Anything else we want to say on this one with battle traits and battle formations Yeah Okay, battle traits. I'm good battle formations You get a you get like a b-minus. I guess is what I'll say Uh, which is fine because before we were getting a d Sure So we're improving. It's certainly a passing grade. It's just we we could have had an a Okay All right next up This one boy. Oh boy. Uh, this one is is a big one. Okay So combat stuff Uh, cool cool picture here of the chaos people fighting some snake ladies. That's fun Uh, cool snake ladies. I wonder who's these are like, I've never seen these in any art before like these sort of red haired snake ladies I've never seen them use these in a photo shoot before so Oh, yeah, yeah I wonder if it's like somebody's army when they borrowed it. I don't know. Yeah, those are nice Yeah, came out really cool Um, hey, whoever's army this is if it's like the army painter team that did it or if the heavy metal team did it Or maybe it's just someone's personal army of gw Great job. We like it stuff Beautiful. Did you see will all brights? Snake army at adepticon will was at trash clash again. He actually I think he took home the The best painters or favorite. Yes. Yes. I did. Yeah, it was really really well done. Nice All right, so combat here we go The changes to commands mean that counter charge and power through are powerful new tools to turn the tides of battle We've already seen that every miniature now has a combat range in a three inch radius And this simple change has plenty of far-reaching ramifications that result in a smoother and more satisfying combat phase Players familiar with the current edition will find the new process very similar Units still charge into combat and fight but these now also work as abilities for clearly defined declaration and effect steps All right. So first of all charge Declare pick a friendly unit that is not in combat and has not used run or retreat ability this turn to use this ability Then make a charge roll of 2d6 inches boom Got them exactly as I said when we talked about this in the command show and people were like wait I have to re-roll the charge before I roll my 2d6 and I was like No Not necessarily Not if in the declare step It tells you to roll the 2d6 because that's how the rule said it said resolve everything from the declare Then use reactions then resolve the effect And in fact, there's what it is Okay, cool. So you make the roll and also you don't have to pick who you're charging right and Seemingly you do not have to be within 12 inches to attempt a charge. Yep Yeah Exactly Uh, okay So effect That unit can move a distance up to the value of the charge roll that unit can move through the combat ranges of any enemy units And must end that move within half inch of a visible enemy unit If it does so the unit using this ability has charged You have to also they have to be visible to charge them now That was a thing that didn't used to be a thing So you can't just like suddenly whip around the corner and hit somebody or something like that. That is a change Yeah, yeah, and previously we had to Wasn't always done, but right according to the rules we had to have the first model Be the one that finished within a half inch so they've removed that which is a good thing It was you know, little little weird Yeah, it's not you can still spread out to some degree right because the whole unit doesn't have to end within a half an inch Which would be impossible in most cases. It's just the unit has to end within a half Yeah, somebody's doing it somebody absolutely. Yeah Um, so yeah, and you can see it as the keywords core move charge Uh, all of which then limited as to what it can do and stuff like that You can't use more than one ability of this type and you can't use more than one core ability and so on and so forth, right? So easy easy key wording. Okay, simple enough great good Uh, I look forward to whatever scaven exception I have that says that when I retreat I can still use the charge ability Right. Um, so that's all I want when where's my where's my scaven? I get to still retreat and charge ability That's all I want to know Uh, and then declare pick a friendly or sorry fight Put up your dukes tyler. We're gonna fight. Okay I ain't got no dukes. I'm a goat. All right. So pick a friendly unit that is in combat or that has charged This turn to use this ability that unit can make a pile and move Then if that unit is in combat, which means within three inches You must pick one or more enemy units as the targets of that unit's attacks effect resolve combat attacks against the target units unit units core attack fight great Like the clarification here that you always get to still use this even if you charged even if you're not in combat because like You are a stone horn or something and do mortal damage on the charge or whatever So you hit them and kill the unit you still get to do your your pile and move right even though you're not in combat at that All right Yeah, um, so that's cool Cool Great Okay, somebody asked on somebody asked on charge If you need visibility in order to attempt to charge I mean not according to this at the start But when you finish your move within a half inch Let's see an unit must in am I reading that quickly must end that move within half inch of a visible enemy unit so The unit does not have to be visible whenever you first Attempt a charge But must be visible when you end the charge. I believe that's correct. Yeah Yeah, it's kind of bogged. Yeah, but yeah, I mean it checks out. It's uh good, uh Clarify that but yeah that that seems to be either an FAQ or it's explained in the more broad rules that are around I guess obviously we're just getting the ability right. There's probably more text around this. Yeah, but yeah I'm sure that like we haven't seen the actual visibility section something like that right Also, yes, the visible claws is probably just so you can't fight through a wall So if I like charge up to a wall and they're standing on the other side Like I'm technically within range, but I'm not just like fighting through ghost walls anymore Like it used to be that in the current rules everybody sort of has ghostly weapons where they can just swing through walls, right? Right, right. Yeah What if they're garrisoned? Well, let's hope that that just doesn't exist. How about that? That's what I hope for Throw garrisoning out of the game. Get it out of here. That'd be my that'd be my win But I don't know if they are garrisoned I assume like if if garrisoning still a thing then I assume it's just like If you draw line of sight to the building you have line of sight to the unit because you know they're in there Right something Okay The order of operations is generally much clearer in this edition. Let's get to that Let's get to the hot stuff right here There are no more start a phase or end a phase sub phases in each phase the active player uses any of their abilities In whichever order they want. Yeah, here we go. I knew I read this exact thing I just said and they were talking about the last article. It's like I know I read that exact text Here it is And then their opponent can do the same like the hard boy shield bash and the blood sister's crystal touch Okay, so our boy shield bash declare pick an enemy unit in combat with this unit and that End that charge this turn to be the target So an enemy unit that's in combat and that has charged So that's when you can shield bash Make a shield bash roll of a d6 for each model in this unit for each six inflict one mortal damage on the target Which tells me our boys are your anvil unit They're they're the one that wants to sit there and take the charge Right because that's when they're going to get to use their shield bash We'll see that again at the moment with the bendictors, but I really like this like clear play to Speaking to rolls through the special abilities will really see it broken out here in a second on the bendictors But like these are your anvil Right, that's what this is saying Somebody charges you you get to do a punch them in the face Right and by the way, you're punching them before they're fighting Sure, okay So pretty good And then crystal touch very different now this this ability cannot stay the same In and this has changed like every book every edition Yeah Pick an enemy unit that is in combat with this unit to be the target So just period they get to do it all the time And in fact roll a die if the roll exceeds the target's health characteristic The target has strike last for the rest of the turn Okay, so, you know Real good again making low wound. Sorry low health Uh models go last Yeah Neat one one thing then it's about this and maybe I'm misunderstanding this but Right, we're playing a game and you charge into the art boys and Okay, apparently according to this it sounds like I'm allowed to do this at any time Now, of course It's clear That I'm not going to do it at certain times But the fact that we have that freedom I do wonder if that's going to lead to An unhealthy amount of oh wait. Oh wait. I need to do this Oh, sure, you know people right without meaning, you know without like I wonder if the freedom Could be a net negative in how this actually plays out With regard in the lack of structure as far as the timing of some of this Hopefully not that was just one thought that came to my head as as we're reading this I don't think it'll be a net negative in the long term I mean I because because generally I think you'll look at it You'll look at your war scrolls or whatever and you'll look for the red abilities or or if you can again Assume you're not colorblind or something or like you'll look for the the little combat phase abilities, right? And you'll say okay, let me make sure I use all these ones Okay, I've used all my red ones all my combat phase ones. All right, we're good. Okay. Let's fight right and that's what that's what you do Oh, it's hero phase. Let me find all my gold abilities right or whatever Um but like I really like crystal touch a lot I love it that again. It gives this unit a clear role Tyler without seeing anything else about this war scroll Okay What are the blood sisters good at fighting? well, I mean historically with their crystal touch they were good at Fighting heroes hero monsters things with really good armor. Yeah, the mortal mortal wounds that they could do The role exceeds the targets Health characteristic the target has strike last for the rest of the term. Yeah. What are you thinking here? Inventory and infantry and light calf Oh, sure. Yeah, like that's who this unit that's who this unit is good against right the number of attacks that they put out and Yeah, because like I don't know anything about the rest of their scroll. I haven't seen a weapon profile I haven't seen anything else right, but what I know is that I have a very high chance of succeeding on my crystal touch If I'm fighting like one wound two wound infantry or light calf right So if they're big Things as we'll see in a minute have like Anti infantry plus one damage or something like that right then it's like, okay, cool. We got That's their role, right? And so what I love about this and and we might might might as well just get it We'll get into the vindictor here in a moment but what I love about this is I really like this skill testing element to the game So this is a thing that kind of It's it's always been there in aos but it was really there in uh Warhammer fantasy and and is to a degree in To this to this day in the old world if you've played the old world but like Especially in fantasy your deployment mattered a lot Okay, like who were you lining up against? Because your ability unless you were a very high move army In a rank and fight game to go from like one side of the battlefield to the other It's very low Yeah, right if you set up on this side of the battlefield if this is your if this is your deployment like if my Screen is the battlefield, right? And I set a unit up here the chances of them getting in a fight with this unit That's the enemy sets up right here is not zero but very low, right? Sure. Yeah Until maybe like super late in the game or something like that unless they're like a really high move It you know through sort of 360 model like a hero in pegasus or something like that, right? Yeah Yeah So who you were generally lined up against like my unit's here. What's what's set up here in this general space Was really mattered a lot mm-hmm Now aos is a lot more free flowing Right in how things move around the battle Speed of units is generally higher the ability of units to kind of warp and turn and move around each other Easier which really increases the complexity Right, it's going I think we've talked about it It's gotten out of control in my opinion and I suspect yours I've you played so many games a third edition where Most armies that I fight against right they just have extraordinary mobility Teleport and the game has always had a lot of it's right mobility But we went to 44 by 60 board sizes and we still have you know moving in the hero phase or run in charge And it's just yeah, it's it's pretty wild the the state of mobility in the game at the till end of third Yeah And so assumingly they'll still be like plenty of high move things right who knows what what movement will look like completely But assumingly things are still pretty mobile We'll still be playing a more mobile game where things can morph and move around and that's good that like I said that actually is makes it a That's why rank and flank games are like simpler. They just are They just like they are there's a there's a b word you could you could have you that's all right What's just the b word? B B O No, they're not boring They're not boring They are simpler though because you only have like in the end in most rank and flank situations You have like six game pieces and it's lined up against their six game pieces And like deployment matters a ton and there's not that much that's going to change You just need to like make a few correct decisions with it with with a much higher amount of known information In a os you're making a lot of decisions with a huge amount of uncertainty right But the point is is that the skill testing thing that I did love from that Was can I get the my correct unit to fight their correct unit right because that's how i'm going to win If I can have my horde breaker Hit their horde Especially hit their horde in the flank Right I win this game Okay And so like trying to engineer those matchups was always the big skill testing part in a os it's a lot higher sort of skill floor And a high tougher skill test But like you obviously want to get your sisters to be in a position where Their only choice is to charge your blood sisters or something with their like one wound infantry Because they need to get there to get that objective right And you're like, oh Chop you're dead right like that's the thing you want to engineer Yeah, interesting You see what I'm saying Yeah, I like where you're going. Yeah going with this. I mean, it's always what I'm hearing you say is that Maybe this is a sign that we're going to see more world war scrolls That are role-defined, which Maybe they've talked about that as one of their they did mention. Yeah. Yep. Okay so Which seemingly could be a considerable net positive and the Army composition the play experience the tactics, etc There certainly can be a downside. I mean, I think about Don riders, you know when Don riders with lumineath, right? There's a worst goal that has a very clear role And yet I would dare say a lot of the times They are not performing that role of because they're not fighting an army that has one or two one models They're going and getting likes around to destroy battle tactic. They're contributing to Intimidate the invaders. They're there to cast spells or often they're there to be a screen and that's their job And so it's not the purpose that they were designed for. So, you know, there's still some potential seemingly For for that to happen. It'd be interesting to see how well they can do, you know, basically to avoid the Don rider situation And other examples like that. Yep But yeah, no, that's fair point. Yeah with with this so I really think and again the vindictor scroll and the The Kroger scroll that we're going to see I love that they used Kroger's Oh, it was it was Christmas when I opened this article today and I saw they used Kroger's by the way If you haven't yet hit like For Kroger's and for my butchered pronunciation that I will never change of this So, yeah, no, I I like these more defined roles. I think it's much more helpful for new players, especially as we'll see Uh, when they when we get down to them, especially when there's like direct indicators to it Right. So, okay Cool. So combat sequence does have a slight difference in that you use all of your abilities first Then you fight Right. So, okay. Well, there there we go. So that that gets into my concern seemingly, right? Yes, this is the phase that's different. Okay. All right The combat phase has one significant differences to other phases after both players have resolved any of their other abilities Then they take turns to activate Units and use fight abilities starting with the active player And then strike first and strike last just happen on either side of normal fight abilities. So Active player uses all their combat phase abilities Opponent uses all of their combat phase abilities players alternate using fight abilities starting with the active player. That's it So there you go. Uh, yep Yep, very good Uh Resolves the concern. Yep And big change here on piling moves. Oh boy for such a minor thing First of all, I think piling in in general will be much less of a time-consuming problem now that just everybody's three inch reach. Thank god Like I think for the most part you'll just be like Okay, they fight, you know, that's that's more or less what it'll have to be most of the time Yeah, um Oh, yeah, Ben Ben Briccio Says, uh, like, uh, laqua. Yeah, exactly like laqua the the water the carbonated water laqua, you know You know i'm talking about laqua Okay, so at any rate, um, some abilities such as fight abilities allow a unit to make a short move called a piling move If your unit is in combat Pick an enemy unit your unit is in combat with to be the target of the piling move So first of all that's important thing number one you get to choose Who is actually a target of this piling move? Each model in your unit can move up to three inches That move can pass through the combat ranges of other enemy units So you don't have to worry about staying outside of combat range great But each model must end that move no further From the target unit So you're setting the target and then it creates the the orbit around so you could shimmy shimmy shake over to the side Or whatever Okay At the end of the move your unit must still be in combat with all units that it was in combat with at the start of the move Yeah, really really sharp that they caught that they added that Big change big change. How many times tyler? Have you piled out of combat with a single model? No, absolutely. Yeah Countless I'll be like, haha, I pile away from you And now this unit is stranded right because they didn't charge or whatever Nope, no more no more you got it. You can still move Uh, but you know, you got to like, uh Uh, but you got to that but that three inch line is like a barrier. Tunk. Tunk, right bump against, right? That's great. And yes, it is unity unit as well Um, so there you go Uh, and then Eric Doty said, uh, lemon shell lemon cello is the loquat Met is the top of the loquat meta. I agree. My wife agrees with you. She's she's deep into that lemon cello with life So there you go Uh, if unit is not in combat each model in your unit can move three inches in any direction That move can pass through and end within the combat ranges of any enemy units So if you like charge and blow your unit up on the charge and you're not near anything You go anywhere you want You go anywhere you want you just three inches Go nuts. Yeah, just great Yeah, so this means the at the end of the move At the end of your unit must still be in combat with all units that it wasn't combat with Right, so we used to have we have this concept of tagging, you know Uh, if you could tag on the left you tag on the right As a way of reducing what the enemy could do right you're reducing their pile in so So There will seemingly continue to be some nuance and skill expression what you want to call it right within all of this You you can still yeah, you can still do some updated fourth edition version of tagging that could have an impact on your opponents ability to get All the models swinging that they would otherwise go to if you didn't yeah, yeah So that's that's cool. I like that But yeah, it should be a lot faster with with this orientation I I've seen some people will express concern right events that we're gonna, you know, a lot of the skill expression nuance of a less is seemingly going away I I don't I really doubt that's going to be the case. I think just gonna agree so completely because what we've been missing is Again, and I go back to the role definition where some units are good at fighting certain things And that's where they can punch you up their weight. This is the skill expression We were missing and frankly it was way easier when I could just take any old unit I want soup it up to the wind, right just all just like three sheets to the wind just just Pile it on throw the dumb thing forward and know whatever I hit. I was going to blend into ribbons Yeah, yeah real tight skill expression there, right and that's been aos in a lot of its history Okay, so get get off your high horse with that nonsense. Okay Like but when you have things where you're trying to engineer and they're trying to engineer their own Matchups, by the way, like not have that happen. You guys are fighting against each other, right? You're trying to get your anti infantry stuff into their infantry Make sure you have your counter punch units lined up to do so make sure you have your anvils being the things They have to hit that's real skill expression where you're actually like Actively playing the game against your opponent not finding the minutia between the rules Of like oops. I piled in in my beautiful little Sippy-dippy silly formation that lets me fight with my 32 inch Models with one inch for each nonsense crap. Yeah Now that there's still some of that There certainly will be okay There will be There just will What else did you have concern on or what else what does he think about this? Oh Much, I mean, I like it. We've talked forever about a desire to see them simplify piling in because it Yep, it has been one of the biggest time sinks in the game's history And I've felt that more than ever with 30 skeletons On the weekends So, yeah I'm signed me up. I'm ready for it Absolutely All right, speaking of fighting The process of working out combat will be familiar to players with a few key changes Unmodified roles of a six are now critical hits A term that can trigger a range of new effects on attacks while mortal wounds have been renamed mortal damage Overall, the rend has been reduced throughout the game And while you can still positively modify your save profile with all out defense, this remains captive plus one most factions factions Lack any other tools to further increase a unit save profile So save stacking the process of negating rend by adding extra save is largely a thing of the past Hey, cool Hey, cool Greg glad to hear it I'm here for it. Do we want to pause there? Yeah. I mean, that's very much worth the discussion yeah Okay, so How are you reading this? They've qualified this right the process of negating rend by adding extra save is largely A thing of the past not entirely or categorically No So it sounds like what I'm trying what I'm getting at is how do you think? Save so it sounds like save stacking quote unquote Can continue to exist you come in you hit me with liberators with Uh, I came up there. Yeah, I think they've got minus one right now the new work with something with rend two something with rents Yeah, yes Yes, something you have plus two to your save and I have rends two you're on a bay save of three What save are you at now? I argue probably I think the way it's going to play is the same as it does now Where you're still in a thread you had plus two to save you had minus two to rend they counter each other out You're back to your normal save. Yeah, which is fine Yeah, yeah I long Tyler if you remember at the beginning of third edition We had like a four hour conversation when I was driving back from Chicago. All right. Oh, yeah And I said I don't think we need rules changes to the to the base rules at all to stop save stacking What we need is to go through the game and gut The plus one to save abilities, right? Just like the the meme of death going to all the doors and just killing all of them, right Just that's what we need to do just chop chop chop Just hack them out of the game other than a few high armor armies that are meant to play that way Okay Like I fully believe mystic shield is gone. That's that that's clearly what this is implying 100% yeah, right? Yeah, and or like like doesn't do plus one to save anymore. It is what I mean Right. Yeah, sorry the current version of mystic shield is gone. Right, right um and The reality is Good, like if you're playing a high armor save stacking army Stormcast Probably the iron wall of chaos Right, right All that kind of stuff. Yeah that's uh Yeah, exactly like yeah mark andre that that's exactly right like mystic shield could be like a award. Yeah, exactly That's that's what I'm meaning, right? So it's not it's not contributing to save stacking is what I meant Um, but the fact that we know stormcast have access to at least plus two because they have a finest hour and all at events Right, so you can take that unit and give them plus two great. They can stay on their three up even against a strong rend Okay Sounds good for that one unit. They can do that a turn Yep, right Um, that feels wholly appropriate for stormcast and for like chaos warriors or you know, whatever something like that Right. I don't know. I don't know who else in the game is like your high armor faction. Those might be like the two um Iron jaws, I guess perhaps I don't know Like that could be part of the identity of iron jaws now. I'm not sure If they want to broaden out iron jaws from just like we punch things hard Um, you know, that would be one way to go right that could be a part of their identity now Um, let me tell you who shouldn't have it and who had it historically. Oh, yeah, ocr. Sorry. Thank you Yes, perfect. That's another great example there ocr. Yes. Absolutely So, um ocr would be the the example from death. Um Sylvaneth you're out of here You're out of here tree people as part of the save stacking nonsense like that's ridiculous I can do it. Well, I understand you're dumb. You're made of bark. Okay. You know what bark is weaker than steel That's why we don't wear that's why we never made our we we never made it with the people that did use Tree and wood stuff or armor many times But that's why ultimately steel armor replaced other materials get out of here with your nonsense Okay, your trees your tree Okay So stop it Stop it get help Sylvaneth universally on like a five up save except for the tree people the big tree people who get to be on a four up save That's my new statement. I have no proof of that. That's just what I want I'm I'm willing. I'm the secreting that into existence Okay, let's see Yeah, so I I think it right it'll Will continue to be as it is now, but just more constrained which will be good Matthew Taylor says you try chopping down a full grown oak with a sword Is it a magic sword as most people in this army wheel or when these games wheeled because if so, I bet I can do it I've watched a lot of anime and you know what happens there One slice of that katana like seven trees get cut in half. I don't care how thick they are So, yeah, I can imagine it. It's real easy Okay, plus a lot of these dudes use axes which is like literally meant to cut down a tree Okay At any rate um Yeah, I think this is good like overall Save sacking being eliminated from the game through just gutting out these abilities By the way, I'd like to see a commensurate reduction in mortal damage in the game as well So that we're not in this arms race, right? That's also an important thing to say um That in the same way should be a thing I long ago argued that we should build the color pie For grand alliances where they have like easy access. So the color pie and magic is like Who gets first strike? Okay So like first strike exists in the white portion of the color pie very cheap and free like lots of things will have it All up and down the cost. They don't generally pay any extra for it. It can basically just be a vanilla ability they have Okay And then like red can have it secondarily, but they'll usually pay for it some Black can have it a little bit but they have to pay for it a lot and then green and blue don't get it at all Okay, so like these things tend to have identities Okay And in the same way I'd like to see those things kind of relegated like certain armies have more Access to mortal damage like if you came to me and said zinch has a lot of mortal damage through its spells And commensurate sort of abilities like that. I'd be like, yeah, okay, of course like yeah Right, great They're good at fighting storm cast now. It shouldn't be so good that they just wipe them off the table Right, right, but they should be the army that's better at that In the same way that like storm cast have one extra way to grab a save bonus, you know that kind of thing Okay Keith Rogers said miniguns are pretty good at cutting down trees. Just saying I agree I agree. Okay Uh, Alex Forbes is aos 4.0 a magic weapon versus magic wood arms race. Yes, exactly. Which is more magical That's right. Okay Uh Great. So anything else on that one or are you feeling good? Yeah, yeah excited. I'm I'm liking this next one too Oh, I love this next one This like threw everybody for a loop because of how they wrote this when it's actually the simplest idea in the world But I don't I don't blame the people who are confused by this because it's just like this This is not clearly explained. They should have just put in the rules text But anyways There's a slight change to the way damage is allocated instead of allocating damage points to a model in a unit Damage points are now allocated to the unit as a whole when the total damage of points allocated to the unit equals the health Characteristic of that unit the commanding player removes a model from that unit. They must stay in coherency I don't know if they could have found a worse way to explain this but let's let's let me simplify this Way down When you get attacked and suffer damage You don't have to pick Whom in the unit Has been damaged anymore instead the unit amorphously is carrying the damage Right, so if you just set a die behind it Three doesn't matter oops. Sorry you marked the wrong one. You got to pull that one now Right, right We've all accidentally put the dice behind something that we then didn't want to pull and been like I don't want to put the dice behind this and I got to keep pulling it. No the unit takes it When it takes enough damage to equal one of the dudes you pull a dude That's it That that's it and that's all So let's make it even more real So gore grunt is my favorite pigs Let's let's say they've still got five wounds. I who knows maybe they will maybe they're right I mean, they're pretty big and beefy so but but who knows maybe that's a lot of five I'm personally pulling for six, but we'll see um You got the unit If they take three damage, you just they took three damage. It's there. It's effectively on the scroll the unit has taken three damage Nothing changes. I don't need to pick a particular model Having war scrolls laid out, right in front of them and they just put the whatever the dice on that war scroll sure yeah and then Once you get to five you pull a pig which pig do you pull whichever one you want? As long as it as long as the model remains coherent That's it Which pig do you want to pull at that moment pull that pig? Pull that beautiful pig footage. That's it. Just pull a pig Okay That's all it is Yeah, fantastic Great elegant. I love it. Right it's like Why didn't it always work like this is my question is I guess Yeah So okay one of those where it's like I don't know when I read this like oh god They they really are getting into the guts of this and starting from the ground up and You know cleaning up these opportunities to simplify make increase elegance Uh, just yeah, this feels so cool It's like it's the simplest thing in the world. It feels weird talking about it this long But it's great. Like it's gonna have a meaningful improvement in the play experience Yeah, this is really good um Like I I just I love this so much I love not having to remember which dumb idiot in the unit is wounded anymore Because like certainly when I played at home, I would just kind of set the dice down And then you know somebody I would be like ah crap. I didn't want to pull that one. Is it okay if I pulled it's not standard bear instead And it's a friendly game and people like yeah, I don't care Just just like let's be honest oftentimes in your casual games This is just how you played anyways people would just be like yeah, just pull a thing like who cares just remove the model right So You know, there you go. That's it. I assume it tells us what happens if we can't stay in coherency then I'm sure something else happens, right? So, yeah, it makes me uh, it's a grumpy pointed it out. Is it grumpy? Let me look here. Yeah Grumpy, this is one of the best quality of life changes in the dish so far 100% like I'm excited to go through Tom and you You know or like list of most significant quality of life Improvement this needs to be on the list 100% this is this is in poll position right now. This is an oscar nominee Already early in the year, you know, sometimes you get a movie that comes out in like april And you're like that's that's going to be a favor for the oscars later in the year like 12 Well, you know 10 months from now or whatever, right? That's that's this rule What a great quality of life change because it actually aligns with how people in their head play the game anyways Which is what you want to do Okay unit rolls Boy, oh boy. Here we go. Let's freaking go With combat range gone. You might have some questions about how a warrior with a hammer is set apart from one with a spear No, I don't and that's stupid. This has been handled by further differentiating the role of each unit on the battlefield That's the important part. What an insane thing to start with Hammers versus spears. No with combat This thing should have started out with we think unit rolls are important They help people learn the game They make it easier to understand how the various game elements pieces the war scrolls work They make for deeper tactical play and they make it much more compelling and interesting as a skill check for experienced players As such we have differentiated the role for each unit on the battlefield by by Strongly pushing roles onto the individual war scrolls to make sure they're set apart from each other. See that's how you write copy Okay Like we didn't need this discussion about Hammers and spears to start this off this section is my point Like we can have a discussion about hammers and spears and how you'll differentiate weapon types But that's not really always going to align Right. It's going to align with whatever they think the role of the unit is like there's going to be some people with spears You know it tyler. I know it the american people know it who are like Good at charging and not good at taking charges. Like that'll just be the case Okay So like get out of here with that. Okay, it's not like spear is a thing that just has this rule So, okay, whatever Uh All right So great They have so the vindictors anti charge plus one rend great So when they are charged They have the opportunity to strike first and regardless they get plus one rend Great So they go from two attacks threes and threes rend one one damage to Attacks threes threes rend two one damage Yep win charged If that doesn't clearly delineate right away what these guys are for these guys are for standing out And taking a hit They are your anvil Very clear and then you've got the shield wall ability if this unit did not charge In his end combat with an enemy unit that charged will die on a four up. They get strike first Hello cleveland now we're cooking. Yeah It's really good. Yeah And obviously these guys are warrior chamber by the way just to be clear So hence the the earlier what was it thunderhead host thing or whatever? So if they happen to be if the other unit that wants to countercharge Right the the aggressive i beta strike unit Is behind them Then they would be could potentially be two attacks twos and threes rend two one damage striking first That's a pretty good anvil That's a pretty good anvil Uh, yes, they could and they could find a stour. Yeah a good point. Yeah, and they find a stoured Two attacks twos twos rend two damage one strike first Now we're cooking with gas now those vindictors are going to act like they do in the trailer Striking down killing us some uh some swamp bogglers ready to go Okay It's cool. Like this is what I've been Honestly tyler. This is what I've wanted This is what I have been shouting about we can go you can go back You can look at 10 shows we've done over the course of 3.0 and in 2.0 even where I was talking about the need for better role definition And this is exactly what I had in mind Right exactly Yep Okay, that's good stuff Like I don't know what else to say except I'm glad I have a bunch of vindictors painted The uh, uh, my rat cast are ready to go. I've got I got plenty of vindictors. I was ready with vindictors Love me some vindictors. Yeah So cool good I mean Does this excite you like you you often want to see the differentiation So my question for you tyler's do you think Having let's say let's say like this amount of role setting whatever this is. I would call this like moderate Moderate uh incentives, right? Sure It's there. It's clear. It's very clear. It's not a light touch. It's also not like the strongest touch in the world Right, like you could imagine this you could imagine an even stronger version of this but uh May said I know nothing about aos or 40k. Who are these lizard guys serif on they look sweet? Yeah, man, because they are dinosaurs writing dinosaurs is like super cool. You're exactly right um, but at any rate Do you think if this is the level of differentiation we get we're going to see actual incentive toward mixed arms as you've described you wanting in the past Yeah, I would certainly think so Yeah, the This is a pretty light touch There's very few variables here, which I like So You know, there's still some unknowns like we haven't seen a storm cast hero war scroll. We've seen the gashes war scroll It's hard to make many judgments off of one of the super characters in the game with one of the more complex war scrolls When the war scrolls are getting a lot simpler now, but yeah, I could write I could imagine what they've discussed Them doing a much better job of putting forward 60 war scrolls wherever we're going to be at with storm cast and 85 percent 80 percent 85 percent That's probably to 80 percent Are worth considering Like if they can do that. Yeah, right in terms of role differentiation You know, just you have this slate of options on the table and You're looking at different variables battle plan battle tactics play style interest, etc and yeah, you're Getting a pretty high percentage It seemingly they I could see them executing that with this kind of orientation that they have here. It's simple And yeah, that's simple as what we need a lot more of in this game. Yeah agree Uh, I don't know gareth. I mean I don't know if I'm in I don't know if I'm on that train. I'd need to think about it more maybe But I I think this like combines for a good Profile with a clear role. We'll have to see and I mean again, you know, the points could make the difference You're right, but but I don't know we'll see we'll see Okay, speaking of things with roles Kroger's Uh again Up to six health. Boom. Look at that. I mean, they're beefy boys Okay, the Kroger Uh Did you see this picture up here, Tyler of the Kroger standing here next to the swamp bogglers Look at how huge these guys are compared to the swamp bogglers. They're massive Stuck on carrot's comment Real quickly on his yeah, I mean that's Okay, I don't want to get to start. There's always the potential for that, right? I mean, we've we've had that reality For a long time with yeah within the context. I'm just saying that I Think there is real opportunity that they're going to do a better job Of reducing the probability of that happening as often as it has happened, especially a storm cast. Yeah, where there's right That's what I'm saying. You've got Anyway, not to rehash the point, but yeah, he's right that could happen That could happen and it is interesting looking at those two more scrolls But of course we're operating largely in a vacuum at the moment. So it's hard to say. All right. What are you going on about Kroger? What's up here? What do we what are we excited about? Uh, they rule first of all, there's six health now Which is yeah, we're keeping where we started at four Now we're finally up to the correct amount of health because again, they're beefy boys Like there's so much bigger than those swamp bogglers, which are themselves like, you know, not small like their works They're pretty pretty big But you got two drake bite balls and a moonstone hammer in the unit very clearly laid out there, right? and so the uh And and by the way, I love this breakdown of big dumb bruiser like big dumb bruisers hit on fours This is my argument. I'm glad I'm so happy to see it. Let's go. Let's go But they wound on twos. Yeah, correct. Because they're big dumb bruisers Right Um, I'm here for it. I'm here for it Yeah, I mean that's going to be interesting, man. Yeah, what kind of ecosystem we're looking at because I mean a lot of us over the years have Right, we see a unit that's hitting on fours and by god, we'd love to complain about it Yeah, because that's not that's not the the baseline in the ecosystem that we've lived in because the baseline was set so strongly at three But if you've got a bunch of stuff hitting on fours, if the new baseline is more around four and like your if you see a lot of like Threes and fours or twos and fours and fours and twos or fours and fives and you know, whatever whatever, right? If that's the kind of spread you're seeing I'm much happier, honestly Um, but these dudes are awesome. I mean, obviously, I don't know how many points They are who knows they could be like a million million points and be dumb, but Written on scroll. I love them Two can show objective control two as opposed to the objective control one. So okay, cool And you know base models the two guys are making eight attacks on fours and twos rend one two damage, but If they're fighting infantry of any kind rend two And brutal blows brutal weapon Add one to the damage characteristic of this unit's melee weapons for attacks to target an enemy unit that has 10 or more models So these guys really want to go hunt some inventory Really really really want to go hunt some infantry, right? That is their their thing This leads directly to what I was talking about before, right? Can you get these guys in the fight with the infantry? right Yeah, I mean we've always had What you've been describing this show to some degree With an ecosystem, but of course you're talking about the potential for it to be a lot more pronounced Which I think you're right is you know would be a better world to live in in terms of how List building happens how the game is played and so on so Yeah, I'm here for a friend of mine david sidebar than been on the show, you know so enough guy david was talking to me about Your tom you often discuss the concept of power per square inch, you know So when we're talking about saying talking about a lot, we have everything moving to three inch. So seemingly there's some potential Of infantry Raising in value due to that standardized three inch reach now We're looking at no double reinforcement anymore. So potentially no right no longer 60 zombies or 30 skeletons depending on what the min size looks like But point being there could be a real potential for the value to still be sizable For those kinds of units power per square inch as opposed to but yeah, and that's that's where yeah If you have generally an ecology that's offsetting that reality with enough units that are designed to counter it Could be quite cool. Well, yeah hard to say How all of this is going to shake out but yeah, man, I like what I see here agreed Uh I like this a lot I love you trying to like and again You're trying to line this up like you imagine the serif on versus doc showdown, right? And it's like your nightmare situation Is uh When your doc is that these things go get into your witch elves, right? Well, you're trying to go tag these things with is like a cauldron or something like that, right? You're trying to you're trying to maneuver your bigger heavier pieces to go hit these where all their bonuses shut off Right, and there's still a scary unit. Don't get me wrong But like their effectiveness goes way down if they're like swinging into your Uh Idol or something like that, right or your your your slaughter queen on cauldron, right? Whereas if they get into your witch elves, it's just like Evaporation It makes me think when I was able to send loud goodbye in one game after this was for woong kruger And oh man, she just she loved she loved getting into six of them They kind of do a damn thing to her and she took them out and three activations, right? I'll say right Exactly and like being able to like play against your opponent and have that sort of skill match is really what I've been That's sort of what I dream about that's when you actually feel like you're being a general on the table Right when you're like, yes, I have made the right moves. I've got the right I have made or like I have engineered the fights that I want to fight that bring victory Yeah, right that to me is actual skill expression Okay. All right, cool stuff. Uh, but the but wait, there's more tyler. We're not done yet. There's still more We we haven't even talked about some of the biggest things yet coherency range All that moving charging piling in and general jostling jostling around is also tied to coherency Which represents how units move and fight together The coherency range of units is now a half inch and models must remain within at least One other model in their unit unless they have seven or more then they have to be within range of two So we still are we're carrying over the six or less. It's one seven or more two. It's fine um, but very big models have larger coherency ranges, which is set on their worst roles just like they are now. So that's fine no issue. Yeah and Coherency is measured horizontally, which means height differences don't matter. Sure. Okay. Great. Cool. Excellent Half inch coherency, man Yeah, okay Yeah, I'm I'm here for it. I mean There's obviously still a fair amount of potential for units to take up a massive footprint, you know as far as screening or I've been playing with simply 20 zombies, right? And often 20 zombies are my outer layer of the multi-layer castle protecting you from a double And so that your juicy bits are not getting killed on the devil. Yeah, uh, I'm I'm totally here for it. I think it'll help Continue the trend that we've been on of this game looking more like a proper going to quote proper war game, uh, you know with It just it'll look more aesthetically pleasing It'll I think it'll have a lot of nice benefits this this this change What do you think? I think we're continuing Light cab I think the same, you know like that. I think as always when I'm looking for my chaff units I'm going to be hunting around the same place. I was which was like have Where I can sort of you know get get a nice Spread on five bases or six bases or something like that depending on how the unit's built You know and and uh that half engine between is not that that crippling to it, right? So that light have chaff Yeah, I mean, I don't know anything arguably that one has always stood out in my mind as a little weird, right? You see your Like they're like they're in parade Yeah, they're like the rest of the army's being like hi as they march by. Yeah, sure Yeah But oh don't worry Eric and Haiti or who else asked? Yeah, I won't I won't we we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna talk about it um Yeah, I mean like I I like the change in coherency. It's fine. It sort of forces tighter grouping Um, brandon has already told me he's determined to break this in whatever way he can because he always is determined to break coherency Yeah, um, so, you know, that's fine. I'm okay with it Yeah, I agree bro. It's like it's like not completely a historical. It's just the positioning on the field is weird Certainly light cab screens were very popular that kind of like Horse archer run up fire and retreat type of thing to draw the fighters is a very common thing It's just the weird. Yeah, it's the weird dressage of like The horse dancing around sideways in front of the line. That's unusual, but yeah, right Okay Cool. Yeah, I'm really interesting. It'll shrink units down in their board presence Which is good because we know objectives are smaller too So like it just means there's actually a lot more available play space that'll be that'll be There right like if you're if the objectives are taking up less space and your units are taking up less space Then there's actually a lot more play space where you're moving around board control becomes a more difficult game to run Um, and so becomes like your ability to sort of dominate the play space is a much Again becomes much more difficult much more skill testing so on Yeah, it seems like yeah, man There's a number of I think I suspect subtle benefits that will result from this, you know, like having spent so much time Trying to optimize one inch coherency with multiple units I mean Dire wolves, for example, right like dire wolves are phenomenal and so polite right now with six inch activation of pylon They have a 22 inch start range ten inch move six inch auto run six inch Pylon and so you're really trying to optimize their spreads and you can Do crazy nonsense with them right now and this this would reduce that and many other examples. So yeah here for it agreed Okay retreating Battle shock has gone because to fight in the age of sigmar is to fight for the fate of the mortal realms Armies engage in battle with utter conviction and battle to the bitter end But retreat is now an ability used in the movement phase a tactical decision that comes with the cost of d3 mortal damage Though some wily units may be able to use special abilities to slip out of combat without reprisal including certain skaven Good to hear it uh so Retreat declare pick a friendly unit that is in combat to use this ability effect inflict d3 mortal damage on that unit That unit can move a distance up to its move characteristic That unit can move through the combat ranges of any enemy units But cannot end that move within an enemy unit's combat range core move retreat Uh great stuff like cool. I love the sort of we we snuck in opportunity attacks Uh, that's great. That's fine. I don't mind the d3 mortal damage and the fact that you know sort of skaven get around it Um, I love more that with the thing. We already knew that battle shock is gone I always hated battle shock. It generally never did anything unless it did everything and it was stupid So let's go for it. Let's let's go Um Hades, why is this the worst thing in this article? Let let cast as I hate this change as well Unpack that for me folks because I I don't it's it's retreating But you take a little bit of damage on the way out now. Okay I would think one thought would be Five one heroes six. Oh sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's much harder to retreat your heroes out of combat. Yeah, absolutely Like yeah, they're gonna get cut down by the mass they're trying to run away from Right, like it's it's entirely possible. That suddenly becomes a very different calculus d3 mortal damage on your unit of like You know, I don't know Your unit of our boys is probably like who cares Yeah Or chaos warriors or something Whereas yeah, d3 mortal damage on your five wound hero is like Well, it could be a potentially big deal. Yeah 100. Yep. Yeah. Yeah I suspect it'll be fine Okay, yeah, I mean like um I If I have five one here that barely survives now guaranteed dead. Okay. Yeah, sure. I get it Yeah, that's fair cast I get that point Like if they if the concern is around the heroes that are barely there and and suddenly lose the ability to retreat That is that is rough. Right. I think that is a real cost We have to have here. I'm not sure I Super hate that is my honest answer um But I because I kind of hate heroes constantly bouncing out of combat all the time But I I'm willing to bet that like Units and heroes that are meant to be sneaky and get out of combat like scaven heroes or knight on heroes or stuff like that Probably have or goblin heroes even right probably have things that just like allow them to sidestep this I'm willing to bet So Okay, yeah, it's also possible that the baseline of wound characteristic has gone up on a number of small heroes Not necessarily all small heroes, but you know, maybe I don't know who knows it's hard to say But that that's the obvious it could be that they all move to like six wounds or something like that Right, which would make actually a material difference in a lot of cases for an ability like this. So yeah, perhaps Okay But yeah, that's that's the obvious concern. We'll we'll see how meaningful it is But I don't think it's gonna be the end of the world. Yeah, I think it is the one like all rules changes are certainly a double double-edged sword um But uh Especially we get charged I want to pull a unit out. That's just makes range units so much worse as well It's just an annoying change. Okay. I mean, I don't know about making range units worse Like you're gonna want to retreat them. They take some damage on the way out I like the idea of getting a little bit of smack on the bottom as you You know sort of retreat out of combat. It was well. Yeah. Yeah Like I think that there's like you can still retreat them. I just I like that there is a small cost there um Yeah, I I mean what's going to change about shooting is a thing that I purposely skipped over but I'm going to go back up to now Okay, uh Where's the actual text? Um Um Yeah, if it was in the circle Here we go. Boom. Okay I I'd kind of read over this quickly before because I knew it was in here, but I wanted to save it for the discussion at the end Uh, okay Coupled with all out attack and all defense the combat phase remains a tense and strategic affair Units cannot make shooting attacks if they are in combat Unless their weapons have the shoot in combat ability So tagging a missile unit is a great opportunity for counterplay Oh boy, that's a big change Uh end of an era here end of an era that just free shooting it right if you remember an aos one right You could just shoot anywhere. You got charged You can just ignore the people you're fighting way They could just shoot any old butt person you want right any anywhere on the board Then we eventually restricted that and we said no you can only shoot the people you're in combat with And now no shooty shooty at all unless you have shoot in combat Which I assume will be like people with pistol type weapons and you know flamethrower type weapons and stuff like that so Okay So tyler This is a big change Right What do you think about this one? Yeah The there were I had the feeling of remember seeing a lot of complaints over the years Particularly aos one about that reality of how you could just shoot anywhere any time It was one of the predominant complaints I would constantly hear about would continue to hear a lot of those complaints and aos second edition uh less prominent my mind with regard to third but yeah, man, I I there's probably something to be said about making A war game feel more like how people think it should feel right in terms of shooting Where if a unit is in combat, they should not be able to shoot out of combat, right? That's been one of the things we've heard constantly over the years from a lot of folks So Yeah, I'm generally aligned with that I think it can open up some interesting play. Well, shooting is not a huge part of this game right now in my mind Right like we we are very far away from the heyday of clam car Or early covids when it we were in the power projection era on tts And yeah, that's not where we're generally at right now. We've got some examples of it So it wishing to see what the the recipe looks like You know in the end with all this but I'm yeah, I'm okay with it Seems reasonable It'll really be a question of who gets you in combat, right? So who's still firing like what what units what what types of things This is truly the most double-edged sort of this article That's why I kind of saved it for last because I thought it was like this is a big change So huge change. Yeah. Yeah, and to me you have to look at this and go. What's the good? What's the bad? Well, the good is it certainly does open up more counterplay Especially like again, it gives a very defined role for sort of fast cab light cab stuff like that Right where they can race around the edges. This is like classic war ever fantasy battles stuff, right? You go back and you tag the war machines. They stop firing right silence the guns Right And like assumingly those kinds of war machines won't shoot in combat for the most part, right? Because you know for obvious reasons it's the crew isn't there to fire them They're busy fighting somebody who's trying to murder them, right? Um But like so that the the good part here is the counterplay it allows Right and the fact that you can actually answer a shooting unit and shut off your You're like a lot of times shooting has been a very powerful option in this game and has often been sort of the answer Whether or not that then Translates though Uh You know like or how it translates is going to become the question Because what I mean by that is like who gets shoot in combat who doesn't matters a lot, right? Sure And the downside here is are the shooting units properly compensated like so they got a Cool buff in the off-turn shoot command ability right Everybody was all like oh my god shooting is going to take over the game again There's this you know, you're doubling the output of shooting units And then they drop this on us and then all of a sudden it's like oh no, but shooting units are crap now Well, like there's some give and take here Right, so you can potentially get additional off-turn shooting out out But how you position your shooting units and how easy it is to get them locked in combat and how How clever your opponent is to be able to tag them in Makes a lot of difference right a lot of difference So You know I think this is one we'll need to see the full picture on But this is a big change with a lot of potential positive and a lot of potential negative right, right Because it definitely will allow for a lot of interesting situations and counterplay and tactics But it could also mean that one of your units just because you slightly positioned it wrong Is basically worthless for the whole game sure Right Yeah, yeah, like I said, we will have to see I've just as you're talking I'm just trying to think about again where we're at in the game today And I mean there's multiple variables. So lumineath Sentinels have not been that relevant for quite a while because arguably they've been overpriced Actually, they hit a point of being overpriced over costed Maybe there's some other things that have been going on within lumineath or that have impacted the recipe there, but Just in general, like if you think about this this game, right the current state ko has been the clear exception ko has continued to well ko has elements that allow them to Have quite extraordinary freedom with regard to their power projection and how they apply their shooting as generally They should if they're going to exist in the game as the shooting infection The storm cast Hasn't had a tremendous amount. I mean, there's been a little so just kind of go through it and Yeah, we haven't really so How does that relate to all of this? I don't like i'm thinking about the item f 3 by 10 reveres that I played, you know Like how would that game have been different if I could have tagged Uh in that game 5, you know, that's a lot of shooting like that's 60 shots amazing shooting Yeah, it had a huge impact on that game that certainly would have made that game Uh more straight not more It would have helped to be able to have the ability to counterplay That more than the degree that I did which was limited. I didn't have many means of being able to address yeah that amount of shooting just had to soak it up so Yeah, man, I don't know. We'll we'll have to see as you said It's kind of hard to try to game theory this out without seeing everything Right to me. It's such a it's such a massive sea change that like actually thinking through especially since we don't know What has shooting combat still right? Like is that a common ability? Is it a very rare ability? Yeah Is it just on like throwing axes and pistols or like people who have like flame style weapons? Can they do it because like some of that stuff sort of exists, right? um yeah, you know like, uh Some of the units in Skaven have like warp fire thrower type of stuff, right? Like rado warp fire thrower type of things so like uh You know like how much how much gets it what what actually gets this Do the ryu writers in lumen f still have it right because they were they were meant to be shoot in combat guys Right like these like yeah short range. They they were they turned the bow sideways was you know, the sort of the thing They got a kill shot right um So exactly what Exactly how it all plays out. We still just don't have enough of the puzzle, but I would say this is gonna make a big change Yeah The other thing that we don't even know of course Are they changing the baseline of ranges in the game, right? Well, they said they're reducing range Oh, did they? Yeah Okay I forgot about that All right. Well that yeah that You mean now, what does that mean like two inches three inches four inches on average? Okay, probably not that huge a change, right? If they mean it's rare for anybody to be beyond 16 inches or something like maybe short-range things don't get shorter It's not sort of across the board Maybe it's like well We tended to cap most everything at 16 inches like unless it's sort of a long-range sniper weapon like a gizael or a The vanguard raptors or whatever there were the long strengths. Sorry You know, unless it's clearly like a dude with an artillery sniper rifle type of thing, you know Um Then you know those can still be longer range Like if if sentinels roll in and their range is basically locked at like 18 inches and that's it. That's a very different thing Yeah So Who knows I don't I don't know. Yeah Yeah, it'll be interesting to see Yep um So like if if it turns out that like oh the new it's not that we it's we compressed things Right, so like more things group around the like 12 to 18 inch shooting range Then that means you're still often needing to get close Ish to fight like you got to be with an 18 inches to shoot That's very different than being within 12 and it's very different than being within 24 Even those are like that's The six inches on either side of that is actually a huge functional difference in the game Right, right Yeah, man I do wonder if this might be one where there could be a disconnect in What they thought reality was at the time of working on this sure in relation to shooting And what reality ended up being yeah, you know what I mean by that. I do very much. Yeah Shooting where the target is versus where it's going to be where it's going to be. Yeah It this one stands out as having real potential Properly enough given that it's it's shooting. We'll see but Yeah, we're we're in a pretty different world at the moment in relation to shooting than where we have been historically at times Not to say shooting doesn't have relevance again. Obviously it at times does but Anyhow, yep So at any rate, uh Big fat tbd on this last one Right You know like what does this actually mean? Well, shooters are shooting is always powerful, right? We know that because you can you can do damage at range That's I don't have a dangerous thing That's why in the modern world we fight mostly with guns and not with swords anymore because it turns out being able to kill Your opponent from some distance away and minimizing your own risk is Strong, right? Mm-hmm. And so that's self-evident. Um shooting has always been strong But At the same and and now you can shoot more with a with at least one unit than you could have previously Through the new command ability if you've got the command points to to to get at that But at the same time you also risk a lot when you're shooting units of having them tied up and then basically becoming quite worthless so You know six or one half a dozen or another I guess we'll see I know It's it's going to take more information, but overall I remain very excited most everything in this article I really really liked it was really clean the new sequencing on the abilities looks great Pylons great. I like the new scrolls a lot a lot a lot these new scrolls get me Honestly, these new scrolls tyler got me the most jazzed Because it it really is like the thing I've been asking for is this clear delineation In uh In enroll like forever, right? This is what I've wanted. This is what I want So Thank you Thank you I want to see more Like keep sharing scrolls with us. I want to see some cav and stuff like that and how they look and so on and so For the ones who are bringing this picture together um Yeah, and it's very it's very nice to see scrolls with One main ability like Relatives, uh, yeah just the bloats and And I mean again, I get people having concerns about oh, you're taking away Depths and nuance and yada yada yada yada like I don't really personally have not say I mean they might be right We we don't really know yet, but sure i'm not really getting that vibe personally what we've been seeing so far I think there's going to be a lot of depth to to all of this even if it's a lot of war scrolls with one Main ability. Hallelujah. In my opinion. Yep. Agreed All right, so a lot of good stuff Uh, tyler, I thought we'd end here Uh, I just wanted to have a few minute conversation On a quick aos 3 look back, right? Sure Like you played in a tournament. We've seen a lot of the new 4.0 rules Overall You know and as I said right now my interest in playing Third is just basically at zero. I'm not going to lie like it's it is as close to zero as you can get okay Yeah, I'll want the new thing But what has been your overall experience by the way, uh, yeah, I agree note on show me faction rules Yes, we want to see more faction rules By the way, if you haven't hit like yet hit like subscribe do all those fun things that make dings It'll make you at least 20% cooler um What have you thought overall about third edition because I find myself looking at all these changes and going Yeah, this is how I want the game to work like we we're getting there I feel like we have a hand behind the wheel now That like I know this sounds funny, but actually plays the game in a real way Like and understands the game in a deep way and I'm not sure that's how I always felt before um, but you know Where like I'll give you an easy example the coherency thing Yeah Okay, the coherency thing being locked to five models felt like oh you don't really play the game Because if you did you'd know how many units of six there are That's just like three dudes by three dudes that you that you reinforce that suddenly become completely worthless Yeah, right Whereas obviously that change got pushed in in third edition through a battle scroll right or whatever But like clearly it got pushed in probably about the time that they they were writing these rules Or whatever and realized that like yeah, let's just do this for why don't we just do this now? It's a quality of life improvement, right? Right to me it just and again. I'm not meaning to be insulting to anyone. I'm sure they played the game in some way I'm sure they you know like I'm not saying that the people who were writing their rules previously didn't I'm just saying like I'm not sure they had the full One of the most important parts Let me say it like this The art of product management Is such that you need to actually understand your users workflows And from that they're pain points The most important part of developing any new product is understanding actually what your customer is doing What do they actually do? What do they feel? What do they see? You know if you're doing software like I do it's what do they click? How do they move? Right where are their hook where are their their catch points in the system stuff like that, right? Yeah And that requires a very deep understanding of the specific thing That that user is doing Right in the various situations that they'll be in And i'm not sure they actually had a lot of people writing the rules before That had that deeper level of understanding or were that invested in the user journey Okay People like that I can resonate with that. Yeah. Yeah, whereas now it feels Pretty clear like you mentioned the damage on the unit thing, right? Like that to me feels like something where they went no, this is just how people play Yeah, right It feels like we're understanding the the user experience in a more granular way and writing the rules to better suit that Yeah Yeah, I'll be interested. I mean any other examples that come to mind We've had some debate about the start of hero phase and the lack of Sequencing in that regard dude. I've played games where There's like eight different things that happen eight ten different things that happen start of hero phase I've got players that I'll play against Who will deliberately pick their heroic action? Before they pick their battle tactic because their interpretation of the core rule says that they can force me to pick my heroic action Before they've even picked their battle tactic Right and that I got on twitter like six months ago And there was no clear consensus in the community at that time about how to play that so Yeah, anyway, like The way you put it at that point is reasonably well taken Yeah, you know So looking back on 3.0, how do you view this addition? And I thought you know brawni said something here I really like the addition trajectory trajectory feels very natural First was the wild west second they codified and wrote an actual real game Third they wanted to flesh it out and fourth they're happy with it But they want it cleaner and tighter and have basically rewritten the you know sort of to actually make it a A simpler easier on wrong ramp experience So Looking back on third Was this addition a success or not? How do you rate it overall? Yeah, it feels like a 60 40 Okay, I think it felt stronger 60 40 success 60 success I think it did felt it felt stronger Initially, which will often happen you know, we We spent a lot of time doing this there's Inherent potential for more positive bias around these things That's probably more true for me than for you. You have more of an expert eye on this than I do the But it became apparent over time as we talked to death on the show That third edition had some fundamental issues and fundamental rate limiters and The word complexity we abandoned about for over a year Two years now in regard to third edition We I've seen so many players who have fallen off due to That issue writ large. Sure how the game. Yeah, just the game became too overwhelming Too much. It's just too much for a lot of people and that's related to the Systemic problem that it had with not having a great on ramp for new players I've told you about trying to teach this game to new players and how much of it We know you basically you make it up and you all right. I want to take away 70 percent Take I want to put all this crap off the table and we're going to get down to the bare bones But that's that's us doing that. That's not them providing the guidelines to do that. So Yeah, 60 40 is about what where I'm at. I've enjoyed a lot of it The issues became more apparent as often happens Battle tactics was a big one in the experience of of that over the over time But yeah, what about you? I think I'd probably use the same ratio but inverted okay um When I look back on on third edition all the things I liked were basically what I would just say are aos and have always been aos Yeah, okay When I look at like what did third 3.0 specifically right not the game of aos which a lot which has had a very Solid fundamental core that I really like since the beginning Okay, like the way you fight and the way you move and you know the basic functions of the game have really been Very similar throughout all of aos. Yeah And I think that when I look at all that stuff, I like it because I like aos But when I think about What 3.0 itself brought to the table I see it as a lot more failures than w's We had seasonal ghb's which were full of pain Okay Uh You know, we're still in one right now for a lot of people like the number of people who really hate blizzard is not small Sure Okay, yeah war war like I think the only reason whorefrost doesn't catch the hate is because blizzard is there Holding the door on the hatred right like it catches everything. There's not enough hate left over for whorefrost, right? It was interesting playing yeah, man playing against the inch right when they already had Game four they already have the 18 inch kill box. So now you out on top blizzard Sure to that and it's like, okay cool Well, I just can't do anything with four dry in terms of combat this game in some ways So, yeah, just the complexity got way higher the battle tactics were infinitely frustrating The as I said the seasons were more or less bad We had we did finally get better battle plans, which I'm here for especially toward the last one, which is good That's really good. Um, I don't want to understate that. I was generally impressed by the upward trajectory and battle plan design hmm A lot of the stuff that was added in there Was simply a failure because it wasn't thought through enough Like it was added in 3.0 Heroic actions were wonky hard for people to remember Like what dice does what what are my options? okay People forgot monsters rampages all the time because they were bad in timing. They had no catch point to actually trigger their memory The universal enhancements had to be changed all over the place because they were so wildly imbalanced Okay Like when's the last time you Tyler? Let's do a test. What are the universal prayers? What are the universal prayers? heal curse Nope Keep going Don't know those are not universal prayers. Keep going Heal curse weather smite, which I don't think I've ever used smite Oh Gosh What else we got okay, so you're close Okay, curse is one you have to take okay You're what what's your your like you have But that's my point right bless Uh, not you know all this kind of stuff like exactly bless to get the six of ward smite right Uh, bless and smite are your two universals curse And and suffer like the things you have to take like you can take curse It's not one of the universal ones you know automatically, right? That's exactly the universal prayers guidance heal and curse. Yes, exactly Okay, but that's the guidance that you select. Yeah. Yeah, but that's my point. Could you tell me what those numbers are? Oh, what's the answer value on those? No Yeah, this is my point Right, that's it right there at this point. We're we're two years and and you know 10 months into the addition if you were ever going to know them It should have been known right But that's just it. They were so wildly off balance. But because they wrote them into the core rules They were just screwed and that's like it wasn't worth fixing Mystic shield and and goofy arcane bolt changing from just being like papa dude To now you got to float a magic ball around you and then walk up and release it and just like stupid crap Right everything is as arcane tome bounced around Do I even need to get into the core battalions and how wildly off kilter those were? That was rough. Yeah, the yeah, we generally quickly ended up It felt like Even more playing the one drop game than ever certainly not much different than historical aos and playing the low drop game Yeah, yeah, like we've been at a very high percentage of one two drops I've played four drops and it's felt like 13 for quite a while now. I'm just about every game. I'm out dropped Yeah, you're either one or you're 13. Those are your two choices, right? Yeah, that's it Like the second you break one just go all the way like screw it just take warlord and and command on to Raj and every their dumb thing right just pile them on Wizard finders of antador or whatever who cares? um And like that's 3.0 man That's actually what 3.0 added to the game Right that stuff Like yes, there was some rules cleanup. Okay jumping from from second to third certainly, okay You know, we we moved the command abilities from being only emanating from heroes to You know emanating from totems and unit champions and stuff like that, right? Certainly a quality of life improvement to some degree or another um But like so I don't want to I don't want to say it's nothing positive. That's why I said my mine would be 40 positive 60 negative Yeah The most the monster's rampages were just bad. They're just bad bad Okay, you like you roared And then you wondered what else you did with your monsters Okay, you you stopped on somebody because it was just a thing you could do And then if you weren't fighting another monster or weren't near a building for no reason That was the end of that list Right heroic actions were a lot of the same. I was like, okay You you it was always funny to me when people remembered they could like add an unbind Right because that was like most people were just default to the command point and sometimes they'd remember Hold on I can add an unbind to this other guy when I'm outcast, right? So everything was just like wildly off kilter and written into the core rules and it just wasn't good and it Acted like an anchor a drag. It was a parachute hanging out the back of your your car Right just being dragged on the whole edition and it didn't get hell It didn't get helped any by the fact that out of the four ghb was bees we had Like I submit three of them were like generally pretty bad Okay I certainly wouldn't call them good They they definitely missed the intended and seemingly missed the intended target consistently And so, you know, like I've had a lot of fun in 3.0. Don't get me wrong I've played a lot of good games. I've been to a lot of good tournaments. I've had good results and stuff like that Right and played a lot of different armies Yeah, he'd notice as and then there's the terrain rules. I mean, yeah That's not even get started right boy. That's the ultimate acid test. Yeah that how yeah terrain rules and verticality Where is the article on terrain rules? I want to see that. Where's where's that? Because they've they've promised that that's happening in this edition that we're finally getting real terrain rules. So so like If rules please Yeah, if you're still allowed to hang bellicor off of a You know foot tower at the tower of foot up in the air We've we've got a problem and and he can count as you know, you can count as potentially getting in Combat range of him While he's a foot up off the air and he's off to the side of the table because he can't actually stand Yeah, yeah so I have to wonder Like That's why I say I think overall 3.0 I would rate what 3.0 brought to the table as a failure Again, not a terrible failure. It's not as though I didn't have fun. I had lots of fun. I played tons of games I was happy to play most of those games But there was just always a big drag. I was always carrying a bag of bricks around Right when I didn't need them and frankly most everything I've seen with 4.0 Has just been pulling bricks out of that bag and toss them Just toss them. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I'm really excited, right? Yeah um You know, so like I think if anything that's going to be the litmus test the one thing that still has me really scared Okay, is battle tactics because we haven't seen What that looks like we know it's around still, but we don't know what it looks like Yeah Yeah, it's been Very interesting playing soul blights. Whereas, you know, they score battle tactics incredibly well Where so like the just real quick this might be useful Or maybe not the The army that I've been playing We've had for a long while a clear way to do well with soul blight Which is that you go hard on primary scoring and By extension primary denying Right, you play the sitting on circles game really well I've chosen to Play lists that are not going as hard into that as they can Which then Has had more challenges It soul blight thankfully does not do incredibly well on dps checking. They're not a high damage army Right, which like people would come by my games over the weekend And they would wonder what the hell has happened when there's most of the models left on the table and we're in round five Right, what's what's going on here? Yeah and and so I found that interesting But All that's just you know, I'm not like it would lead to a lot of games where Yeah, like I got 25 out of 25 battle tactics over the weekend and it dropped one But four out of five games were as close as they get I mentioned the killy seal of the grand strategy so a way of saying that I still you know been able to find enjoyment and Variety in pathways to victory Within the con the confines of 3.0 competitive play And I think you can write I I have found there to be A good amount of diversity that's viable within that um, but With that said, yeah, but the battle tactics have had a big impact in shaping The the whole environment like that's undeniable So anyway, I'm not entirely sure if I made a coherent point there, but No, I got you you played poison mushroom Okay, that sounds like in magic reference. It is not okay So When mario came out for the nintendo. Yeah poison mushroom. Okay. Yeah The reality is You know, it was kind of the only game that a lot of us had like what buddy had in nintendo But like We didn't have a lot of games when nintendo first came out There wasn't a lot of games released and you know It wasn't like your parents are gonna give you money to go buy more video games The whole idea of having video games in the house was still probably new for a lot of people Unless you happen to have an Atari or something right before that And so You know, like you just had mario So you just played mario over and over again super mario brothers, right the first one And you would play it so much and you'd get to know the game And you'd know every position of every sort of monster in A lot of the game right because you would just keep running the same levels over and over and over and over again Yeah, and so you would add additional challenges to yourself And so we would play a version of the game called poison mushroom poison mushroom is when all the mushrooms were poisonous So you could never make yourself big Right, you had to run the game small as tiny mario, you know Meaning you one hit kill, right, right and So like that's your equivalent of what you were doing there, right um, you were You you were like well this normal thing I'm kind of done with so i'm going to challenge myself with these extra Layer of rules that I don't really have to submit to but I will write i'll self impose them on me So I get it which is common, especially for johnny types. Sure. Sure, of course but overall I think you can only play but you know things like poison mushroom will only keep you interested for so long because eventually you'll just It's it's the speedrunner's dilemma eventually. You'll just beat that too. You'll just you know, you'll keep chasing the dragon, right? In the end what's actually going to make it interesting, valuable Whatever is when you can um Is when you actually have real and varied experiences every time you rock up That's what'll actually keep it interesting And i'm hoping that what i'm seeing here is going to make that be the case Because if every new game is really a challenge that you're unlocking as you play the game Where you're trying to like get the right fights have the right combats do the right things, you know We haven't seen battle plans, but obviously that could factor into this heavily and it'd be a huge part of it Then I think you've got that that's the recipe for actually holding interest. So yeah Yeah, and when I say the that that resonates when I say the 60 40, I guess if we narrow it down appropriately to the 3.0 Core roles and sort of framework itself, right? Then i'm more closely aligned with where you are if I was thinking more about The a broader scope of 3.0, right? Which when I think about all of the positive steps forward They've taken with external balance generally the balance site, you know, we talked a lot about how We've had Significant disappointments and many of the 3.0 battle tombs when they came out. Yep Which then got better and better and better But it took a lot of work and external work after the fact to address them And we've got we finally got to about the best place that we've ever been in as far as sure Yeah, we had like a year of bad battle tombs in 3.0 like I didn't even mention that But that's very much worth mentioning, right? I'm just like one after the next where it was just rough Yes Yep So, yeah, there's good and badly ugly there, but Where things stand now? Yeah Rocking up to the table. I still experience meaningful variety of situations, you know Games are still often meaningfully different Even though they're working within a system that clearly has some limitations and and we're seeing A lot of steps forward, you know, it's a lot of meaningful improvements with fourth edition here so Yeah, I I had a lot of fun with third edition, but increasingly became aware of Some of the challenges. Yeah. Yeah, I love that sickness maximus says bad full tombs Quality punning Yeah, all right. Good. I just wanted to do a little check back and a little look back there as all of this Has gotten me thinking deeply about the experience of 3.0, you know as we're ramping up here It's made me look back a lot and think about kind of the experiences and stuff like that. So Yeah There, you know on that event. I mean, this may not be the time to do it, but you're wishing to kind of reflect Maybe tom we get on we can talk about it, you know Can some of the things that are still coming out of events like that's kind of a broader scope or broader lens than just 3.0, right like Chess clocks still sometimes pace of play issues that players will have sure Terrain is definitely still a thing like They you know the guys in Kentucky doing their first event They were using the defensible and passable wildwood system. Yep There were some issues which I'm going to relate to them that I felt in terms of how that was handled or not handled It's their first time on the gate, you know, there's still Some lack of standardization Universality to some degree right within a GT setting. We still don't have a lot of clarity Like the studio has never answered how we should be handling end-of-game sequence. So yeah, and end of game right end of game discussion Right. Are you and I do you happen to love to talk it out? Do your opponent hates talking it out? Like what are we doing right you look at six packs and they might all be a little bit different And they might all be a little bit different. So there's still a fair number of those kinds of issues within I guess especially tournament settings That could use a little more universally Could could use to be universally defined better in my opinion Yep, agreed uh I do agree sickness. I I do yeah I agree I completely agree sickness said I came into us the start of second after a salty sit out of first And I love the creativity where armies were from and fought in various different realms. You could mix and match things more Yeah, I mean I do like it's better for the game overall in balance Like when I think about the trade-off for balance and stuff like that things like realm artifacts and goofy stuff like that You know, I do there are things like that that I do miss Um, I'd love to see some silly things like that come back into a play mode Maybe it's not for like the tournament match play, but I'd love to see stuff like that be available in some mode of the game I think that creativity is really important and frankly like let's Yeah, have have something that that speaks to that would be my ask so Yep. All right, cool. Let's call it a night, buddy. I think this is good. Yeah, man Yeah, for all of you out there. Hey, thank you so much for watching. If you haven't hit like yet Why don't you hit like uh subscribe do all those things if you want to support the show There's lots of ways you can do so There's links down below affiliate links if you're gonna buy some stuff for your hobby you can click those links And uh, it doesn't cost you anything extra In fact, in many cases it might save you money, but it gives the channel a little kickback There's a merch store down there if you want to wear Tyler's little sprite on your uh on your on your chest or if you want Uh, my wife and the dogs if that the the chaos, uh, howling's there They came and visited at the start of the show you can pick that up. We had we had one designed for her Uh, I think I want to get one done for Larry the ogre tyler. I think he deserved He's been he's been as much as anything else on the channel. No, yeah I ran into uh brandon harvey. He Rocks he was was not wearing it, but apparently in the past he's rocked Tom's team tom He plays nergal. He loves nergal. I pointed out to him that you know, when's the last time you actually saw the tall lines play nergal I played it for like 18 months. Maybe maybe did well with it at some point And you said well, it's a talked events. It's a brandy problem. He's like you just got the wrong you got the wrong Decisions were made Sadly not eighties. I wish they did. Um at any rate Uh Thank you everybody. Also, of course, there's our patreon. You can you can hit that up and uh, that focuses on taking Your next step on your hobby journey Maybe you suddenly found out like tyler that you have to paint a whole army by november and do it yourself Uh, and if you're in that situation, well, we'd be happy to help. Otherwise I just want to say thank you so much I really do appreciate you watching share the show spread it around all those kinds of things Comment throw down below your thoughts on whether third was good or bad in the long run How does it shake out and what you're excited about for fourth? Did we miss anything on the Uh elements of the upcoming stuff to discuss, but Thank you so much for watching as always We'll see you next wednesday