 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today we're joined by Mr. Scott Garrison of DW drums Garrison welcome to the podcast. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Glad to be here. Appreciate it. Yeah, man So so your artist relations marketing manufacturing you have quite the reputation Being you know, the DW guy you've worked with a lot of great people One of which is Tony Williams very closely. Yeah so Well, let me let me explain real quick first before we even start because people are probably expecting the symbol episode But it's been moved around. So now Garrison is part three symbols are gonna be next week Today, we're gonna talk about all kinds of stuff, man, but I'd love to maybe start with just like Your audition your relationship with Tony all that amazing stuff and then we'll get more into the gear from there Yeah, yeah, absolutely At the time I met Tony, I was living in the Bay Area. I was going to San Francisco State and I'd also Started working for or with other drummers in the Bay Area being a drum tech and Arata Michael Walden Michael Shreve Ran around with Steve Smith and did some stuff locally with Michael Carabello from Santana And this was in between everything else that I was trying to do in life Just get involved in music and when I was working at the drum shop called drum world And it was up at Mission in Geneva Tony was teaching there and he would come in You know walk past everybody go into the back You know his students would come in and that was very organized and then he'd leave and this was this went on for a while and Then one day he just kind of came up to me and said, how would you like to be my drum tech? And I said, well, sure, you know kind of like we're just talking about pizza and drum tech You know and he said great you got to come over to the house And I said great and he left but he never gave me the address and never said when never said, you know it's like So they need to come back in and give some lessons and then this went on for a couple more days And he never really said anything about it. Like, you know, hey, so finally I stopped him and I said If I'm gonna, you know be your techa shouldn't I come oh, you know It's kind of like trying to how do you break the ice to Tony Williams about yeah, yeah, and he said well, you know Fine and he gave me his address. He says memorize it and then destroy it lose it can't have it I don't want it out there and I went eat it. Yeah, pretty you know, get rid of it burn it You know, so I figured out how to get to his place and we set up a time and I went over to his house and knocked on the door and He said great. I don't know if he said great but his cordial and he said let's go to your music room and the music room was a converted garage the The side door went into the music room drum set, you know CD player tape players Piano his music notes everywhere and then the second part of the garage was storage was filing cabinets and other stuff So it was a separated garage and in there was a Double-bass DW drum set. It was huge three rack toms Three floor toms aside. I mean it was just and I'm like Wow, you know cuz I just remember seeing Tony as two racks and some floors and you know and all the stuff that you know And now there's this double-bass rig DW, you know, Tony Williams yellow red lugs black hardware. I mean it was huge You know somewhere in my pile of notes here. I have my original notes from that situation and tell you why it Comes up so he's sitting there and he's smoking a cigar and he's you know kind of eyeing me up And so I'm kind of looking at the kit and I swing around to the back side And I'm sitting there on he had a pneumatic throne. So it kind of bounced and all of a sudden he kind of like digs into me You know, I'm bouncing up and down. I'm like this is kind of fun You know dig me. I'm at Tony Williams drum set and I need my drum set set up like this every single night And you know, and he's just reading me the riot act over a drum set up and so I'm sitting there and I'm like Well, that's great. I said, you know, I can do the job But if you and I don't get along, it's not worth my time and he stormed out of the room And I went Well, all right, he left So I said he was having kind of a bad day. I don't know I think it was I think it was more of like a testing of the water, maybe I don't think it was a bad day I can't you handle it. Can you handle it? Can you handle this to know who I am and I'm sitting there going, you know You asked me so I must have something or that or I was just so stupid and naive I didn't realize what I was doing But I just simply said, you know, look if we don't get along It's a waste of my time in your time. So he leaves So he's gone. So what I did is I sat there for a few minutes And I'm going to kind of jump over here to some notes because I've got a pile of stuff here And I started sketching his kit, you know I had to figure everything out because the way he sets up is different than Narada But he's you know, Narada is different than Michael Shreve and everybody's got their own little thing So I started drawing and making notes and I'm gonna hold this up in front of the camera And I don't think I'm gonna get away any secret recipes and I don't think anybody can read my handwriting Yeah, it's just extensive note to explain for people kind of listening in the car It's right. It's just a it's just a the typical yellow Tablet and I sat there and I started writing everything down and you know first set up right kick in the second The top of the snare and the height of the top of the snare was 29 inches on the left side And it was 28 and a half on the right. So there was a slight You know down slide and so you're measuring I'm measuring everything I got a tape measure and I'm drawing things and you know, I'm like, okay So how does this work because he's got three racks and he's got three floors And I'm measuring the distance between the floor toms because it was set up in a triangle like a table And I'm okay. There's a little distance here and I'm measuring this and the height is 28 and a half inches And then I'm I don't know at what point either I was behind the kid in front of the kid And he comes back into the room still smoking the cigar And he goes, what are you still doing here? You know I didn't know that that was my cue to leave when he left And I said you said That you need this thing set up exactly like this every single night. Well, I need to know what this is So I wrote down all your heights your 13 inch rack tom centered first 13 33 and a half inches up and I showed him all my notes and he just smiled and he said, okay So it was a test. So it kind of was it just but when you're told by somebody like tony wames, what are you still doing here? You either your boots are on or your yeah, so Yeah, I wrote here was this can you was this 94? This is 94 end of 94 beginning 94. I I want to say Oh because here's Because he started receiving the kits from dw in 94 At drum world where he's teaching and at his house because here's the original write-up from john good and it was september of 94 So This was the kid you had no connection to dw at that point, right? No, I the only connection I had to dw is I was selling them at the shop and tony was using to teach on I I had never met john at that time Uh don lambardi didn't know I knew who they were and but I didn't know them Tony was the connection to dw And I'm sure that you know all my lovely fact because back then you had to fax You know you didn't have emails So I'd fax john good all these things all the time like oh john Tony and I are discussing this and I'm sure john good would go oh great another fax from this guy, you know, but It was My introduction to dw drums deep with being with tony. Absolutely got it. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah Just to fill in that gap before we move forward because I know paul Which I didn't really mention this at first, you know, I I know you enjoyed part one that you've seen that you know Paul's not here tonight with us while we're doing this interview But uh, this is just so cool to have the two of you guys and paul's on some and you're doing this It's just it's just awesome But so do you know the reason that I'm sure you do why did tony switch from gretch? To dw I don't think I know or maybe I'm forgetting that that kind of story. What why do you want to switch? he um He wanted to stick with an american made company and dw was it and um There was a gentleman working at dw. I think this is how it kind of worked John de christor was at dw for a short period of time and then he got hired by zilgin and tony's a zilgin artist and tony was looking for a drum company and I believe john de christ for Got ahold of dollin bardy and john good and tony, you know through different time phone calls He's looking for a drum company. You're a drum company. We should make this this communication happen um, okay Yeah, and so i take that as yeah, yeah, yeah that gretch obviously wanted to manufacture things overseas at that point I don't know that i mean gretch is still in the us I I just um, it's probably The easiest thing to say is that tony was looking for because he was always pushing them I mean there was a double bass rig in front of me three rack toms and the three floor toms and a side tom and a snare And you know, there's a that picture online if you go online that we were talking about earlier That overhead shot you see This massive rig and everybody was like this is not tony But it is tony because he's always going forward and he's always doing things and I mean um We did a we're going to fast forward and jump all over the place And unfortunately people they're listening or go. Oh my god the guy's on you know sliding all over the place but I started working for tony and there was going to be an event in la called drum day la And this was a dw production dollin bardy had the name drum day la and tony was going to do a clinic And then he was going to perform So We got ready for it. We flew down to la. We rehearsed at third on core And nobody knew what was going on outside of the immediate us and tony was rehearsing Rock music. I mean this was full on rock. We had uh bob daisley on bass From the original asia osborne band Lyle workman on guitar and tony on drums and we rehearsed at third on core To get these songs down and they were going to be performed after the clinic So we go to house of blues on sunset set up Got his drums there and tony comes out and does a clinic You know starts off with the snare roll and you know and comes in on the cymbals and then hits the right I mean it is tony and the audience Is filled with fans and la drummers I mean packed And tony does this blazing clinic And then he says, okay, i'm going to come back out in a few minutes and we're going to do We're going to perform for you And I don't think people realize what was sitting up on stage when all of a sudden they look up and there's a Marshall stack And an ampeg sitting there And outcomes bob daisley on bass and lau workman and guitar and tony starts playing a rock song Original written rock music man and people lost it. I mean the story goes Because I wasn't in the audience so I was I couldn't hear anybody But the story goes that joey heredia said holy crap. Tony's now playing rock And and it startled people. I mean because they're just used to you know You know and tony was always evolving and always pushing it and that's what You know, I think one of the reasons why he might have gone to dw because I wasn't in the conversation when he Talked to don lambardi originally I wasn't sure I was still working there. Yeah, I wasn't there Still in the barrier working for other drummers up there and tony requested and couldn't Backtrack a little bit. I found out that tony called around to find out Who all the guys were using as a drum tech and they all pointed at me and so that's and then and then it just Yeah, it was kind of nice to find out later on that tony actually did some background checking on me And I not just walk by you and say hey kid. Yeah, yeah You look you look gullible enough and strong enough to lift this by the way It's double bass and all this crap and the cymbals weigh a ton. That's okay Yeah, so well, that's what what I find interesting too though is It's cool that he switched to the double bass, but also it's like when I think Obviously, I'm talking you know the history of double bass goes way back But we know that like 1980s double bass everywhere tony didn't jump on the bandwagon and do it then He waited until he was ready and he wanted to and had a reason to do another like he always Yeah, uh, thinks it through greg bisonette key in helping tony with the I mean Good god greg bisonette, you know, I just met him at paisik actually which I should have come and said hi to you I was only there for half the day on saturday and I saw greg and uh, I saw greg I probably saw him right after you saw him, but he's he is It's so hard to Not just smile when you see greg bisonette You know, you just smile then you go and he's so good, but tony was with greg working on the double bass, but the majority Aside from the rock stuff And and even then when we did that stuff in la it was only a single kick drum tony used a single pedal single kick drum so and you see a lot of footage online Uh of him playing and you just hear And he's feathering that bass drum and that just that yeah underlying rumble And then it's in control and then he's you know, and then he's matching whatever he's doing He was working on double bass because he was pushing himself You know sure and uh, it's it's kind of wild to think of tony like Starting new at something. You know what I mean like he hadn't really I'm sure he's Incredible at it from the start always his eyes open always his ears open This episode is brought to you by masters of maple masters of maple is proud to present the 323 snare drum The 323 is a love letter to los angeles it embodies everything about where masters of maple is from and where this drum is made It's dark gritty and has just enough flash to make it in hollywood. This drum comes in two sizes There's a six and a half by 14 and an eight by 14 each size is limited to a production run of 12 drums It's got a 1.2 millimeter pure copper shell It features the new masters of maple stump badge and has black nickel plating The snare comes with a trick multi-step throw off and you have the option of choosing split lugs or tube lugs Or die cast or triple flange hoops. So you get to customize this drum You can pre-order the 323 right now at m drums.com before it goes live for sale on december 8th 2023 this is a limited production run and it will go fast. So head over to m drums.com to learn more Thanks to masters of maple for sponsoring this episode the story of him talking to miles At the club when he wasn't in the miles his band and the story goes That he walked up to mr. Davis Mr. Davis, mr. You can I play for you and the story goes that miles said ah, kid. Why don't you sit down and listen? So tony sat down and listen and then it comes around a year later that he asked tony to join the band I wasn't there. I can't you know somebody could call in and go you're crazy. I was there He didn't say that he actually, you know did whatever But it's a good story though. It is don't let the truth get in the way of a good Yeah, and I don't and I've never had anybody correct me. No, it sounds right. So it's it's you know, so tony tony's eyes were open and He listened and you know, he had Desire for shells that sang and I think john good and don lambardi provided that as well john good and don lambardi Turned the drumming manufacturing world over When when they started, you know because john would go out and tech I don't want to I want we'll get back to tony's drums because there's a there's a come I'm coming back Yes, this is great. I'm rowing a boat and I'm coming back to shore so John would go out and tech for various drummers and then come back because don lambardi had the drum workshop in santa monica And john would say this is what I've learned on the road and john would then start taking Drums and cutting bearing edges and understanding them and don was working on hardware and it was a progression of Them just putting things together don was working on hardware to become better like a height adjustable canister throne Then you know, he got to take over the campco lugs and that became okay If I've got these then obviously I got to put them on a shell And john started realizing that shells had frequencies and Tamber matching so when john would make a kit And for example, tony's giant kit john would tap on each shell. So each shell Progressed down Sonically so you didn't have that 13 that no matter what you did sounded higher than your 10 when in reality it should be a lower fundamental So there's john doing that with shells and and the history of dw drums is documented and it's all over and there's There's an episode with don lambardi of the podcast. Yes I think it was last year don actually had an interview with me about tony and we talked about some of the stuff again but I think when that Tony was looking for something different John de christopher, you know made a phone call don lambardi's doing his thing john's doing his thing and I think that all of that Lined up and and tony came down and met with don and john and and uh, yeah When we just celebrated our 50th anniversary don and john were on stage talking about stuff And they started bringing my name up So I came up on stage and we were talking about how they met tony and what the first kit was and what tony wanted and things like that and One of the first kits Nobody's seen there's no i have not found any photos of it And everybody goes oh, it's the yellow kit with the red lugs and I go it's not one of the first kits And it went off to new york and it is There it is This thing is a monster. This thing was 8 by 10 9 by 12 10 by 13 11 by 14 12 by 15 13 16 14 18 The 15 16 and 18 were all on legs The 11 by 14 was going to be on a rim mount, but then they put it on floor tom legs to 18 24 bass drums Six and a half by 14 snare This part was essential for tony snares from this moment on all of them had to be 12 lugs not 10 So if you look at the There you go This photo is up on the internet. That's a 12 lug snare not a 10. So you can't get a tone control on it Oh, man. I mean it is a lot of lugs on that thing 12 the number 12 was essential for tony was a very important part of him So this kit is actually called tw yellow over white pearl and it was Like a white marine finish ply and they painted it yellow and it had brass hardware I have never seen a picture of this kid anywhere So it was white marine pearl paint. So you would see a little of the pearl, right? It's the white marine pearl finish ply and john and I could probably talk to john and confirm that he used Ultra white. I think it was ultra white marine pearl and then they misted the yellow over it And then they put brass lugs on it and off it went this one this one went out to new york And this is something tony used at um montana studios So I wasn't there. This was just prior to me So I didn't see this kit until we started working together and I went to new york to go through the locker And I found it and I'm like what the hell because all I knew was the monster yellow kit in his studio that You know that I got lectured on with the red lugs You know and so wow, you know, there's little things that I and it was funny when you said I would you know would want to talk to you about dw drums and tony's drums and paul actually was the first person to contact me about this Yeah, I didn't really think about how many details there were and there are in tony's drums until I started going through my notes Yeah, you know the subtleties of how he set up and the black dots and and john good being who he was Or who he is. I shouldn't say was sorry john who he is I'm still here. Yeah, you know, the door gets kicked open. What are you doing kid? Yeah Yeah, what are you still doing here? Oh, it's totally So You know that that timber matching genius of him and the hardware that don came up with Was a perfect storm for this situation and this kid at that time. Yeah, and that's the perfect dw time right there and So this kit I mean, I know where it is, but i'm saying it was there in new york And it kind of did its thing and then it was left because then tony got into the tw yellow And i'm trying not you know again back to the yellow that everybody knows And and and as we toured and did stuff, you know, hey, do you got the clown shoe kit with you? Ah, it's ketchup and mustard You know, it's it's a thing. I mean it's uh, it's a very much a thing Which again people just listening not on youtube with the pictures Which I should mention that if people are just listening Sometimes people say oh, I didn't even know there's youtube videos Yeah, there's youtube videos that have a ton of photos, but it's definitely a vibe. I mean it's the yellow with the red Uh, did tony ever talk about that? People's thoughts on the colors. Oh, yeah, we'd laugh. I mean we'd we'd collect names, you know, would you hear? Oh, you know, it's a it's a it's a pissed off ladybug. Oh, no, it's clown shoes. It's rhonomic You know, there's only so many you care Yeah No, I think I think we giggle awesome. Yeah the and the and so jumping back Let's go back a little bit to yellow gretch the yellow There's two There's one story I keep perpetuating because we had a laugh about it And then there's the story that that I kind of think is what it was um yellow came about From my understanding because tony had never seen a yellow drum set as you and paul discussed It wasn't in the catalogue at the time it came out later on that poster catalog You know showing 83 or whatever stop sign badges and um And I remember tony saying well, you know, I'd never seen a yellow kit So I said can you do a yellow kit and gretch said yes, and you know, I mean there's more to it than that But that's the cut and dry version So that yellow just became synonymous and It it's kind of like, you know, everybody goes well Yellows tony's color that's like saying amber vista lights or bonnems color, you know It's stuck and you see and it really does look good as a drum It just does You know wil calhoun playing the yellow and you had elvin bishop and elvin. Yeah, you know And one day I'd like to just buy a dw yellow kit, you know, just to say but I can't I don't think I can I don't think I can In good conscious order a yellow kit. I haven't spent so much time with tony. Yeah the other Flip is or the other story that we always that this was tony's genius You know, because everybody would say, you know, why'd you pick yellow? Why'd you pick yellow? What's your deal with yellow? And he would say well yellow is the color of intelligence You know, it's just like a really like he like it was like a off-handed comment And it's stuck. So to this day every time I see something yellow like it's on a shirt or whatever I go see color of intelligence We have no there's no way of knowing if we're right. We're probably wrong But it sounds right, but it sounds good It's a cute little you know, so why did tony Williams have yellow kits? Oh, it's the color of intelligence. Oh, he must be a smart guy Yeah, you you start doing start doing little things like that Well before we move on I just got to ask before I forget you said the 12 lug thing 12 was an important number to tony. Yeah, are you talking like sound wise drum wise tune ability? Or are you talking the number the number 12? Yeah, his can you explain that a little bit date? 12. Oh, okay. Well, there's 12 hours in a day. There's a lot of things about 12 and And then when it came to the snare, yeah tuning 12 12 lugs very important. Yeah. Um, yeah And then uh, we'll jump back to a yellow grudge kit. Sorry But other little tidbits about tony's kits and different time frames of when you saw them was this the Drums were yellow Lugs were red and at the time dw didn't have their mounting system. This is stm mounts They had rims the old school rims and those were black And those went with the black stands and then the brackets on the drums were black and so the legs were black So the four tom legs were black and the crutch tips were black And then we started doing red So there's only a probably a handful of pictures out there that show a kit with red floor tom leg crutch tips with red So this was 96 just Oh 97 prior to his passing that we started doing this So you're gonna so if somebody says oh, I saw a picture of tony williams and the legs were black rubber on the floor tom 94 95 part of 96 then we got into so there's only I mean, I haven't even seen a photo with this. I just know that yeah, you know I have a couple of them and the other day I was thinking in a something that would be Different about this conversation because I again when I started to think about Talking about tony's drums and It also brought up the fact that we did things that were not necessarily about the shell. It was just little tony isms You know and red crutch tips Was it Totally. Yeah detail is is that one of the original? I assume that's one of the original ones from From the from 96 or 7 that you have right there. I had I had yeah, this is yeah, this is an old piece of rubber Um, wow, it's it's a special piece of rubber. Yeah, there's you know in all my notes here and stuff There was a a fax I sent to john good and I said You know tony was asking about those red crutch tips Did you get them you know or something something you know and because john got them and he sent me the bag And so there's some leftover ones Because we never got to put them on all the kits unfortunately So I have a couple left over that I have and uh, you know a little thing of tony. Yeah Well, okay, you just said all the kits how many kits Were there because I know he kept some in different spots with gratch even there was like european kits I mean was it just one or was there multiple? Um, we'll jump back to the gratch thing real quick when tony joined when tony joined dw Um, because you guys are paul brought it up That gratch would sometimes ask for kits back So gratch asked for a kit back from tony So we sent it The yellow kit that I sent back to gratch Ended up being the kit that alvino Bennett played at the olympics when the bomb went off And and there's a nice story online. I think it's under the gratch page, but if you google gratch drums alvino Bennett olympics in atlanta Talks about the kit alvino Bennett was going to Atlanta to play at the olympics and Ask gratch or said to gratch. Hey, I'm not bringing my gear and they will will bring you a kit And they brought him the kit that I had just sent back And then that was the kit that was on stage When when that chaos happened at the olympics and there's a very nice story 96 96 96. Yeah, oh my god Alvino Bennett said a very nice thing I mean, he's complimenting the gratches and he's complimenting tony And at one point he was talking he was trying to get the drums off stage because they were so significant to him that security said Look, it's your ass or the drums, you know or somebody so he you know So that I can't believe that so that kit that we sent back became that kit So back to your question about kits that tony had Um, I got I guess I can do a quick count Well, we had the one that the world has never seen except for a handful of people and and I don't know if anybody took a photo There was the teaching kits at drum world There was the in the monster kit At his house was actually a combination of two kits and that's an A story that threw me for a loop and threw john good for a loop So there's the monster kit. There's the montana studios kits and then the montana studio kit became a yellow kit Then there was an la kit Then there was uh scotland japan So is that seven Seven and they're all yellow with the red lugs identical to each other. They're all yeah after the 94 tw yellow over the white pearl they became yellow Got it seven kits man. Wow and uh, but eight there was a little jazz kit that that this is the kit that uh became The incorporated Big kit because when I got to that way back when we were talking about tony's big kit you know he had He had requested from dw a double bass kit with three racks the three floors Two bass drum snare and then a four by 14 side snare over on and you can see it in some of the photos And then also requested a little 18 inch setup It was an 18 a 12 and a 14 and that 14 is part of There I'm pointing to a photo on screen And you can go online get a better shot of that 14 was part of the little jazz setup So I was faxing john good going. Hey, these are the drum sizes that we got and john's saying Those are not the sizes I built him that big kit that you're describing. Those are the wrong sizes and I said I'll go back and measure. You know, maybe I'm I made an error So this went on for a couple of days and then finally john said he combined the two kits That's why that kit is so big. It's supposed to be a big kit, but it's not supposed to be that big And he's just playing and having fun Yeah, so he combined and that's how it became the three racks and then we finally settled in on um What you saw in 99 of the time was the 24 The two rack toms the three floors And the snare that was the majority of what we did stuff on um all maple shells You know john tambour matching them making sure they all sounded right and black dot heads And that was the majority of stuff, but the big massive kit that stadium kit was going to be The big stadium tour when the rock album came out and when the rock tour happened, that's what you would have seen And you know, but that unfortunately that didn't happen, but that's you know That's the way it goes But and then there's a black front bass drum head in a picture I'm looking at a 94 drummers collective has the dw logo and it looks like it has the zilgen logo on the bottom Which is interesting because a lot of the stuff we talked about with paul was unless it was especially set up Uh photo shoot or something a lot of times he didn't want the gretch logo on the front He didn't want the badge for gretch. That would always be kind of turned away with the tone control Right. Yeah, but now he's got zilgen. He's got dw. It seems like he had a bit of a bit of a change of heart You know Yeah, I mean, you know part of it is you want well if you look also in the background of that picture There's a big zilgen banner There's a giant zilgen man. I guess this is clint It's clinic. Yeah drummers collective. And of course you're now at the point where where drum companies are And just like any other company you want that logo recognition And true dw kits go out with dw logo heads and that's a dw and just below that is our other dw logo and zilgen came up and went With their bow the logo and there it is sticker. Yeah, absolutely You want you want the brand recognition? I mean, yes, you know, even tony understood that because you know his album Wilderness that we recorded in la. He was working on You know his logo, you know on the back ignition. He was he understood that You know, you know that kit that you're looking right there at the collective there That became the majority of everything because that's two racks three floors and there's the snare If you go online, there's a clinic that zilgen put on zilgen had a zilgen day in scotland And tony's the thing there and you know, you tony's just doing his thing and it's it's I hope everybody You know gets a chance to go online and find footage of tony tony playing on dw stuff tony playing with miles you know the stuff he you know when when he left miles and it was mcgloughlin and Larry young it I want to say not because I worked for tony and not because he was my friend, but I'm willing to give him the tip of the hat that that was the beginning of fusion. They are the ones That's what paul said. Now. Now. I'm sure something one day. I'm gonna be walking down the street somebody's gonna throw A grapefruit at me and go, you know what you're talking about, you know fusion was started by this guy in brooklyn fine great I'm gonna still stick to that because it It rifled so many things and then then they got jack bruce and you know I was going through a bunch of old footage of Stuff um after tony passed and you can find it on I gotta hope it's still online But there's tony and mantra and maybe I have it somewhere But I think larry's sitting there with like a like a chic Hat on like you can't even see and he's playing and tony's got This to the set up where there's just like two 18 inch ride symbols. He's just blazing. It's like You can't even imagine how quintessential that was and and I just You know and a lot of that music is hard for people to hear they just they just go it sounds like everything's coming at you at once And yes, okay, that's a valid statement, but If you if you don't look at it and you listen with your ears as opposed to listen with your eyes You're gonna hear it a different way then you can open your eyes and hear it again It's and that's why when you see these clinics of tony and then drums and how he Played them and how he sat and how he commanded them and how he wanted them to speak I'm gonna jump back I think that's one of the reasons why dw appealed to him because dw was also pushing the envelope as well as Making the drums and making sure that it was a complete Instrument not just here's a random tom and here's a random drum and good luck to you son play like mad. No Tony and it it dw allowed drummers to be drummers and toni was You know clearly ahead of so many things because there's stories. I mean I think it was the zilgin day because vinnie caliuta was playing zilgin and You might be able to find the footage, but there's a photo or footage and if you look Vinnie caliuta is on the side of the stage just looking up at vinnie I mean vinnie's looking up at toni. Excuse me. Vinnie's on the side You know and he's just watching toni and he's just doing that ride thing You know another drummer to talk to is terry bozio bozio new toni And talked about the ride and that rides him a bit vinnie in that ride thing and then back to dw drums big drums john John got requested by toni to make big drums toni's you could see the evolution of drums with toni 18 you know and as music progressed drums progressed sizes Absolutely, and it pulled you in and and toni's not going to sit there and go Well, i'm not going to play in 18 the rest of my life We're getting a 24 and at one point we had a 13 and a 13 rack to 13 different depths Wow, and but because of the drums we could tune them You know and we had a sequence and I have in my notes what the drums were to be tuned to And wow very particular. Yes. I mean he knew he knew what he liked. Yes. Yes, and people would come up and say You know could you explain to me? You know they go up to toni. Could you tell me what you tune your drums to and he would say no But not like me not like you know. No, it was like no, this is mine And what you need to do is you need to find yours You know get your drum set out figure out your head combination And play and start to find yours And you know Tony did toni had a certain way he wanted the drums tuned and I had to Do that as time went on I kept pushing him To change up things, you know, I you know The simple conversation will be another one, you know because he had a k ride forever everybody knows him as a k And uh, there's you know the arm and zilden story and I'm gonna I'm gonna edit my swearing But arm would say to toni the the way you play that cymbal is F and beautiful, you know and and john to christopher can back me up on that one So you can get a hold of john to christopher. He could say that that's but You know then toni again experimenting with drums And you know love the maple because maple is so explosive and expressive I got him into an a custom ride and so we had a different sound and then I put on a coated snare head And then I would at the the kid at the house I changed all of the heads. I said, will you let me just tune it my way once I'll change all the heads tune it up And if you hate it, I'll change them all back to black dots And so there so there's a whole day, you know, you know, you know drills No, you had to do it by hand, you know Yeah, there's like 600 drums to do it Take it a drink of water. No, okay. That's all right. I'll keep going And so I tuned the kit not to his notes But to the shell in the room And You know, he didn't say anything. He just played it and time went on And calleen his wife came up to me and said He really loves the fact that you tuned the drums, but he wouldn't tell me that Yeah, but she told me and I was like, oh, I'm put that in my pocket. You know, here's a coin forever But but he went back he reverted back to his normal way Yeah, we went to black dots were were essential for him top and bottom top and bottom but I did get You know at times when you're in the studio because he'd do brush work I'd go coated head you can we're gonna do a coated head on this Yeah, and you know and then back to talking about the logo head and how you know, Tony didn't Like certain things are changed up at certain things, you know, he didn't always have to tell you He would just simply make a decision. We went into a studio in LA And I brought the kid in and I tuned it up and we were sitting there And the engineer was coming in to bring in the mics and I just finished tuning the kit And the engineer gets down and he starts to undo the front head And I go, what are you doing? He goes, I gotta put the mic in there and I go, no, you don't no, you don't no, no, dude This is this is Tony's kit. Not your kit. Yeah, but this is what we and I go I'm telling you. Yeah, you know, put the head back on. Don't do this. You're you're good He's gonna come in and I'm telling you know, I'm trying to warn this poor kid And he was older than me at the time. So I don't know why I'm saying kit But yeah, Tony comes in And smoking a cigar, you know in the studio You know, yes and no not so not so politically correct, but it is what it is And and he goes, what's going on here? And I said trying to tell him that you don't want the front head off He's trying to say the only way to record this And Tony said, well, what did my tech tell you? And the guy says, well, he said to leave the head on and he goes Well, he's right put the head back on So I had to put the head back on we tuned it up when I recorded when I would do work with Tony live And when I recorded him we had a mic inside the kick drum, but it was a pzm style So it was that sure like a flat like a boundary mic kind of thing And I could run the line out between the head and the bearing edge because it was a tiny little thin line It was a shore So there would be that inside There would be a beta 52 in the front and a beta 52 on the batter So we could do three mics or two mics or whatever it was But we didn't put a hole in the front head because that was part of Tony's sound That was part of the drum that spoke that and you can when you see Tony play or hear him play Because you guys were talking about kick drums and tone earlier Paul and you were Yes, when Tony got on a 24 dw there was a tonal difference from gretch to dw And part of it was the tuning and those heads being set up there And it was part of his sound and that all felt beater was also essential Well, and there's I just going to throw it out there that there is a sure microphone ad with Tony where he has In his little list of of things. There's there's the the pzm microphone on there I remember Paul and I talked about that and we weren't sure if he used that live because there were certain photos where there would be like a I think it was japan in the 7 in the 80s or 70s or 80s where there was a Looked like a sennheiser like a 421 mic in the back the batter head But they wouldn't have been using the the the pzm mic on the inside at that point. I imagine I don't think so. I don't there was no mic on the front of the head though, which is yeah No, we would do a lot of Miking on the batter side because of that that beater, you know and how he played and controlled that bass drum pedal The mic was right there And then you know, I got to do some experimenting with him when we would go out and do shows because I could drop a mic And on the the batter side the pzm inside or if there wasn't the pzm crapped out or something happened Or if I didn't have it whatever it was A mic on the front so we had mic batter and then the same thing Yeah, sure double mic the snare double mic the hats, but There was no hole in the front head. That was not part of his sound Yeah, yeah, all right. Well while we're in gear kind of talk here, which the whole thing is gear talk But let's let's maybe dive in a little bit too In no particular order you pick you choose let's say pedals Hardware and then maybe we get into the the cymbals paul's going to do a whole deep dive cymbal thing About the 60s and the 70s and all that But i'm really curious about your experiences with that with getting into a customs But I don't know let's maybe start with the hardware like like the pedals was he did he switch to dw When he switched to dw was all dw all stands were dw all pedals Um throne was a rock and sock. He loved the because dw didn't have an airlift at the time Yeah, so tony liked the airlift rock and sock because it got him up higher. He would you know if you see photos of tony He's up high He's not you know, he's not down behind. He's driving. He's like into the kit practically standing Yeah, yeah, not not chest or thompson high, you know There's some pictures where it's like holy cow or mick fleetwood, you know, mick fleetwood It's like, you know, yeah, but no tony sat because it was you know, he commanded this You know, this is where I sit and this is what i'm in charge of and these are the drums I'm in charge of and and that was important. Um, so all dw five thousands or five thousands It's the chain drive five thousand the tried and true single chain Five thousand pedal but an all felt beater Um dw has that one oh one beater where it's felt in plastic, which is a great. I turn it around. I use the plastics I don't mind But tony all felt beater And and that again part of his sound you you know And and I I did like the fact that people would come up to tony and ask him questions like You know this and and can you show me he would show? You know, he would talk about stuff, but he he would still cut it short because he wanted people to Get enough information that they would go get their own The tuning thing will you tell me what you note you tune your kit? No Not because I don't like you not because it's because you've got to go and Do your thing and you know and that's important because it's You know I I couldn't you know if I started to play tony licks You know if I started to do that ride thing and you know, I still couldn't sound like him I could do the swiss triplet. You know, hey, that's a swiss trip. It doesn't sound like tony It just doesn't know that's the I want that tony ride And it's like well, you'll never find it because it's tony mix with tony his stick, but it's really just tony right And yeah, we were in la it was since we're jumping all over the place We we did the we'll jump to symbols the yelling of the symbols and then a thing before he yelled at me about the symbols We were in la and we're standing out in front of the studio And I'd never I didn't take any lessons from him Because I was there I could watch it and I knew people like rob heart and people would go and take Deep dive lessons because tony was going to make an entire program on lessons You know it's because you would at the time This is when you you could release vhs tapes and this is volume one and volume two and tony had a plan for a lesson plan and these students were part of it Just like tony had a plan for a rock album and then he had a plan to do Soundtracks and we were going to move to la Because he actually asked me one day he said would you mind moving to la out of san francisco and I went Sure, you know if you're going on whatever. Yeah, let's do it I didn't take lessons from him But one day i'm gonna reach over here and grab a pair of his sticks Yeah, so people that are you know, so I had a pair of his sticks and I just simply said put out your hands And i'ma hand them to you and I handed him the sticks butt ends towards him And I watched how he grabbed them and he naturally grabbed them Like he plays he just simply grabbed them and what you couldn't see is I was holding the sticks like he Helped him and the main thing was that right hand and you can see footage When he's with miles how that right hand worked all the way up To that clinic in scotland that right hand And so I looked at his hand and I went got it and I walked away and he looked at like would you get Well, you know like and I went well because i'm not going to take lessons from you I'm I'm not going to sit down and go let's talk about a 30 second roller I'm I'm not that guy. I I don't think that way when it comes to drums So the other story we're going to talk about on the symbols was when I was at his house one day We were in the garage part of the garage filing cabinets and Things just it was the garage Yeah, there was a filing cabinet and behind the filing cabinet was an army green zipper symbol bag big brass zipper army green canvas bag And I go what's this what's this and I start pulling on he goes I don't know leave it alone Don't put it back put it back and I keep pulling on it and he's pushing Finally, I just pulled it out and I unzip it and there's a ride symbol a crash and a pair of hats And there's the cut out on the symbol and you can find photos of it online When he was playing with miles, there's a symbol and there's missing bits of it And I go what are these and he goes oh those are just some symbols that max gave Those were the symbols that max gave tony when tony took over the chair for miles Unbelievable and max and those are like priceless symbols. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, that's just history sitting there and and so, you know I of course put it back after I got what I But those I mean max and tony. I mean tony lived with max for years, you know and tony So As when he was a kid and he would travel there and he would right stay at max's so, you know, and you guys kind of Tipped on a little bit when you and paul were talking about the jazz community and how you know, there was all these photo shoots And who was there it was in new york I mean you you went to the gretch factory in brooklyn and picked out your drums And that's why all those guys on the east coast were on gretch. It was right there You know and you get and gretch was the distribution for zilgen symbols And then, you know, so all of that fit And that was the new york jassey and it was I and unfortunately. I wasn't there. I wasn't born But I mean, of course, I would have been I would have been falling all over myself at that point And then you kind of jump ahead now tony's in california. It's years later and there's dw Drums pedals and hardware all there zilgen is still a factor in tony's life. They're on the east coast But he's you know, that's never going to change. He's going to be zilgen forever. Yeah so Things that are important, you know And tony's sound and tony's efforts and everything he did with the drums You know, that's why you got yeah that sound and people go. How do you do it? Well, you You know, tony's tony. Yeah, tony's tony. All right, let me ask you about It seems like and i'm gonna real quick i'm gonna share my screen here with you Paul did an amazing job of resort like finding all these these deep dives Yeah pictures, but so this what you're saying. This is probably the kennedy center rehearsal That's what i'm trying to figure out because there's the kit with the red uh lugs and the black hardware and it set up And i'm trying to remember what this would oh no wait Is that or that could have been the rehearsal before we went to italy with m boom so max So you got tony's kit ginger baker's kit and max roach's kit And then that's you would have been there. Yeah, you were you were here. Yeah, I was in new york And those who are listening i'm looking at a photo of tony smiling at the camera And behind him is a set of you know bells and other drums and percussion stuff Another drum set that looks like it would have been max's kit. It's got an old symbol with rivets tony's kit and then on the far right of tony is another drum set We did a tour. It was called m boom. It was max roach ginger baker tony williams and we rehearsed in new york Before we went to italy And that's the only reason why I could think of there would be three drum sets in a rehearsal spot and I that could have been It yeah, I could have been there. Yeah, I don't think that's my photo. I think somebody took that photo That's cool. And then going to the young at heart photo here. Yeah, that was this session talk about Yeah, like the the setup and and you can take it anywhere you want but just like he's always had For or at least for a while. He had the middle kind of crash But here there's this really cool kind of splash right right. Oh god Talk about his symbol setup a little bit the photo you're looking at the young at heart stuff um is a combination of the Big kit and little kit the little kit when I say little kit It means 24 kick two racks three floors snare I had and he had the crashes and you can see that ride symbol I get excited that ride symbol is actually in a custom. You can see by the shine. It's not a k and then coming off of His crash that was over his first rack tom between the first rack and his hi-hat There's a splash symbol and then over two was righty in their splash So the big monster kit at home Had little arms that came out of the top of the symbol stands there the 909s or the 90s Those are both 909s. It's and so those who are geeking out on dw hardware. It's a dw sm 909 Which it seems like he's like I have access to it. I'm gonna play with this. Yes. That's it So, uh, let's see if I can find the complete symbol listing of my original notes I mean because I I mean I haven't I gotta be honest. I hadn't seen this stuff in so long I mean my handwriting is such chicken scratch, you know first floor tom 14 inch center dot with 13 tom First 13 tom was snare 28 and a half inches high, you know all this stuff and the symbols were 10 inch platinum splash eight inch splash same height and angle is 10 inch platinum So I think I think those two splashes are both aids though in that photo Sure, they look about the same size and I mean I you look at some other pictures. There's like there you go Custom crash you can see in that photo this up above Um All right people that are not seeing this there's a photo of tony on the monster monster kit with the 11 by 14 That came from the jazz kit that he incorporated in this photo over tony's hi-hat Is there you go? You see that splash? It's that's the 10 inch you can see it comes right out over his crash That is wow that looks I guess that's a 10 inch. Yeah, you're right. Of course. You're right. What am I saying? Oh, no, it doesn't mean I'm always right, but I think that's the 10 that we use You know and there and you're right. He you know, he did like that symbol in the center of his rack tom So on the big double base kit We had a stand when we did the single base kit. We just put it in the 9900 bdm sure which historically there were some photos way back Going back to uh, I believe the six the late 60s or 70s where it was like a hodgepodge of stands to kind of Make it work and fit there. Yeah, which was interesting But now he's with dw and it's all now now there's yeah, there's yeah again dawn and john You know pushing the envelope on gear. There's the side snare There's the four by 14 snare to the left of his hi-hat and if you this is a good shot too You can see straight down the snare his main snare black dot No tone controls no tone controls and there's a there's a A fax I'd sent john good when I was working with tony and it said, you know Blah blah blah. We're doing great blah blah blah. By the way, tony has to gain about tone controls You know and john was I think I think john John loved the fact that the instrument was is pure, you know Don't have to have tone controls and I think you know it says uh, here's my note He would really love to have the mufflers on the new kit coming up For some of the other kits if it's all polys will develop these mufflers for tony. It'd be great if it can be done We need 15 per kit, you know and so please send them and I'll install them Never happen the the so he liked dialing in the tone control and that was part of his sound but we using it Yeah, I and now There's an argument to be said Did having no tone controls in a dw kit You know changes sound some sure Maybe it was maybe it was an unconscious decision that made him You know because we never had him. We didn't have tone controls in those drums So is that a new sound for tony? Is that a new way of thinking for tony? I mean did he did we stop asking about him? You know, I don't remember. I mean, you know, sure Yeah, ultra wide open hi hats very interesting. It's a tony thing. Yeah the trick for i'll i'll share this Tony's hi hats the distance Between the bottom hi hat and the top hi hat because you hear when he starts playing in that left foot start And you hear and he's you know, why is it so loud? Well, there's two key things One was the distance which was literally make a fist That's the distance right there my fist four knuckles From, you know, the pinky up to the end point of finger. That's how I measured the open of the hi hat just I'd take the upper hi hat loosen the clutch bring it up Put my hand on the rod let the hi hat drop it and land on my hand. I'd tighten it. That was the distance That was one one way of doing it Or one reason but the other thing was his hi hats were 15 inch K Bottoms so the bottom symbol was a bottom and the top symbol was a bottom so they were thicker So you've got that You know, so when tony started going go go go go go and he'd come on cross on those things It was exploded Two 15 inch k bottoms big brassy, you know make a statement And that's what they love that he uses the the the old I mean this symbol setup is talk about a hybrid. I mean it looks like we have a pretty heavily hammered k Newer k mixed with some some a's some a customs It's 18 inch pre-aged with the 10 inch platinum splash above it two 15 inch k bottoms One 18 inch medium thin 12 inch effects number one 16 inch k dark crash 22 k ride 20 inch thin crash with the 8 inch splash above it 15 pair of rock hi hats and 117 inch k china boy Yeah, this is more symbols and more drums as we've said he's always evolving, but this is more symbols and drums It's just I mean he's got a it's another chapter. Yes. Yeah, and again It goes back to that first kit that dw did the one that went to montana studios. It was huge you know, but It tony was going to use all this. It wasn't like it was there to fill up space It was going to be used and we did use them, you know, they had a purpose He was always thinking always pushing himself. There was tones coming in songs come in. It was going to happen So, you know, um, yeah It's just unbelievable that you know, yeah, he kept pushing it the black hardware is awesome too I mean, I love the black hardware. I think that's super cool. That's that's uh And then what I mean you you have the photo up here What is this is this just something in the picture that i'm looking at or is there something here? I don't know what that you know what it is Now that I see it there is glasses. Yeah Now that I see it, I want to bet those are his glasses. Okay There that you know what it is it is his glasses because it's forcing me to tell the story So we we fly I think we flew to la somewhere. No, washington. We went to play kennedy kennedy center honors We land And we this is free 9 11. So we get off the plane and we're About to go down the luggage claim and tony cooks it means says I forgot my glasses go get them So I run through an airport Pass the gate again, you know pass the where they please get on the plane down the runway or the not the ramps Whatever you want to call them. Yeah. Yeah, they get on the plane jump on the plane. There's and I go Forgot some glasses go over to a seat. There they are get them and come back out I mean that's when you could go back on a plane and nobody tackled you That's the most pre 9 11 story. I've ever heard in my life ran back onto a plane to get his glasses because he'd forgotten them Wow, yeah, and there they are. Yeah, and I think those are them. That's funny that they're in the photo. It's It's hard. I'm sure for you but forever you drummer out there to just think of and this is true with a lot Like I mean neil all these amazing drummers like what could have been. I mean my god. It sounds like he had so many things planned and what a Tragic tragic loss. I mean that the it's just crazy what he was pushing forward with the whole instrument in general Don't I mean? I mean that that had to be a hard day the rock album I mean the going back to that drum day la that dw put on You know when yeah when when tony comes out who's this everybody knows as this jazz fusion guy And you see bob daisley Who's just a monster bass player and lil workman who guitar I mean Soundtracked ever sound I mean just unbelievable and they come out and they just start playing and tony's playing rock music You know people are like i'm quitting. You know, it's it's it's like it's what can he do? Yeah, well, you know, so tony again Drums were his instrument and his passion And you go all the way back to when he got that you know on that back of that photo when he's a little kid playing that That kid sitting on the kitchen stool radio kings, you know drums as he grew musically drums grew and that Another good thing. I mean the drum kit the american band Dance band drum set, you know It's american invention. It's it's it came from yeah, you know You show the old sock symbols and then how they got to be the hi-hat And you know, I mean all of this progression As drums changed tony kept changing too. He kept it drums evolved. He evolved, you know It wasn't always in sync because tony did take breaks and he you know But I I think that ultimately, you know being on a dw kit was good for him Because of the instrument itself being You know don and john again changing the way drums were being made and Bearing edges and listening to the shell and making an instrument because drummers is you know, we got plumber We got plumbing things and you know drums. Yeah, you're a drummer There's there's more drummer jokes in there are guitarist jokes lead singer jokes. It doesn't matter everybody's gonna bag on the Drummer and we would and tony and I would tell drummer jokes. Hey, do you hear the latest one and you know That leads me to the question of so you guys I mean the first interaction was a little bit like kind of like you were being tested But did you guys like have fun and do for round and just kind of on a personal level was he kind of a Tough negotiator. I mean look at the smile man. He was mischievous. He I mean come on seems happy. Yeah God, I mean there were things You know go back and get my glasses, you know, um We'd be in a hotel and it would be God knows what hour of the morning or night and my phone would ring in my room and I'd pick it up because I knew it was him Yeah, what? And he would say remind me to tell you something tomorrow and he'd hang up and I'm like, oh my god There's nothing there. You're just messing with me and there was there was a time where he would put do not disturb On his phone. So people would call in to the hotel. I gotta talk to do not disturb. You can't you can't find him Well calling his wife would call and he had the do not disturb. So she would call me And say will you go down knock on his door? Tell him to call me and I'd say of course So I'd get up Walk down the hallway, you know, whatever time it was knock on the door. Tony. Tony Yeah Colleen wants you to call her All right, and I go great I go back to my room started to fall asleep again Couple minutes later phone ring again. It was calling. Did you tell him? Of course. I told him Well, he didn't call me go back down and he would make me do this three or four time He knew you know and it goes on to when we were in Italy and we played Verona in this huge outdoor stadium Coliseum it's all rock, you know And we're all set up and it was max row. This is the em boom stuff. Tony max and ginger And the drums were on a 20 foot riser So everybody could see everybody in the percussion world was down below and drums are open to Max was at the other end of the stadium And when I say stadium, I mean this is you can look it up. It's in Verona. It's huge Um, Romeo and Juliet Verona, Italy So I'm on stage with Tony and he leans over and he says Tell max I'm not gonna play And I'm thinking what yeah, tell max. I'm not gonna play. I don't want my drums up there I don't want to be up on that you gotta tell max. I'm not gonna play So I look and there's max, you know a football field away So I run across the whole stadium run up the stairs like rocky get up to the top where max is sitting Max Tony says he's not gonna play. He doesn't want to play with the drums up on the right doesn't you know All right, well tell Tony that he's got to do it So back down I go Go up to Tony max says you got to do it. Tell max. I'm not gonna do it Sends me back this happened back and forth through finally max says Fine tell Tony will set his drums up down below on the stage. He doesn't have to be up on the big riser Tony feet up doesn't have to be man So I come back all the way to Tony and I go max agreed. You don't have to be up on the riser You can be on the stage and Tony looks over and goes now tell max. I'll play up on the riser So, you know If only cell phones exist, you know, I mean your entire early career. Yeah, it was running back and forth Being being to having fun with Tony Williams. Yeah, he was yeah, and I've told similar stories Not I mean that's an actual story But when you work with Tony or for Tony or however you want to put it He wants 110 out of you But he's giving 110 himself. It's not as if he goes All right, mulgrew miller, you're gonna play 110 and ira colman And you're gonna run around and you're gonna do all and and i'm gonna sit back because i'm telling no Tony was 110 as well. There was no Yeah, half-assing it, you know, yeah, he was for sure passionate and drumming and you know, so Back to I think the original point of this whole thing was Tony's gear The dw drums to you know before we go off on some other tangent and I say something stupid All collectors maple they were maple shells the snare the six and a half by 14 were the craviado solids when craviado was working with dw those were craviado solids they were 12 lugs so Tony's snares the six and a half's 12 lugs that was something That he wanted and john and don did it and you can see it in the photos because there's that photo of him playing the snare drum the dw and tw you know The workshop photo you that those lugs going you can't that's not a 10 lug snare. That's 12 was uh 42 strand with did he still do the super wide snares on the bottom? Yes and and and um One day I'm going to hell. He's gonna kill me one day I didn't like the sound of the snares. I was you know Right or wrong. I don't know uh, but uh, he wanted 42 strands and I said, okay And I said I want to try an experiment and I took the 42 and I clipped a couple of the outer wires off Because on a 42 when you turn a snare over and you look at those wires the outer ones If that weld is not right, they don't pull Straight they sag they get that because it's a wide thing for a tiny little strap to pull So one of the one of the days we did work it they bothered me So I clipped the two and so we had a modified 42 and I think it became a 38 for that one thing but 42 so snare wires 42 Absolutely 42 Yeah, it's just tough for most people to like Rain in and handle. I mean that's a lot of uh, there's a lot of buzz there power there. Yeah There's a lot of buzz. There's there could be a lot of buzz with that But yeah, there's in all and in this huge stack of you know notes and everything It you know, you'll I'll be you'll see my scribble or something I typed up 42 strands 42 strand, you know We had 42 strand wires all the time Yeah, there's a photo that you and paul showed or paul showed where it showed one of his snares turned over 42 strands Yeah Yeah, there's a few and it was like you kind of have to look and that's there's something there's kind of the Mystique about tony too with those early Days and years where they're not as well documented which adds with a lot of drummers even bonham and those guys were like You can't see everything. Everything's not shared right and that kind of adds the cool factors Yeah, I mean it used to be that you know you go to concerts and the in the photographer and the pit had first three songs Then you were kicked out now bands are going come out on stage with me and then at the end We're going to turn in our backs to the audience and everybody's in the photo Yeah, totally different. You know, it's just Yeah, I mean there's absolutely. It's like it's turned completely. I mean you'd have to Take a picture and get lucky if you got a photo of somebody in action, you know Because flashball stroke, you know, you're in jazz clubs and you know, people would go drive you crazy Yeah, it drives it is it is maddening, but it's um Uh, what the what we do have now, I mean literally we're talking there's a there's a four part series about it Based on some of these photos, you know what I mean, like it's just become part of history. Yeah Um, so I just want to make sure we're not forgetting anything. I think with the dw era It's not that long of a period. No, unfortunately not. It was three years Yeah, nine. I mean the first the the first paperwork I have Shows, you know Because here's the 94 order for The yellow lacquer kit with the red hardware, which this is the Glasgow scotland kit, which is if you go online You can see that clinic. It's a zildjian event that that kit originated By john good in a conversation with tony in 94 so nine and here's 18 by 24 right kick drum pzm installed sure, you know, so there's a there's a note that we had Um, so 94 drummers collective that photo from the drummers collective that kit here. Here's the write-up 9 by 12 10 by 13 are the rack toms So that if somebody's looking online 14 14 floor tom 14 16 floor tom and 14 18 floor tom 18 24 And a six and a half by 14 solid snare, which was the craviado snare yellow lacquer red hardware black dot heads And it says ship to drummers collective if somebody wants to know what those this is it right here Wow, yeah So 94 here's a here's a write-up for 95. This was the big la kit Soul train when he played soul train It it mirrors the collective 9 by 12 10 by 13 14 14 14 16 14 18 18 24 six and a half by 14 So those were those became his those were the majority of the sizes Then when that gigantic kit that I sat behind that had the combination of things that became 9 by 12 9 by 13 10 by 13 14 14 14 16 14 18 the 11 by 14 floor tom with that that's in that picture of the funny position to 18 24s That's The big hit at home that was the san francisco kit That became giant giant kit and this was my fax to john good about the sizes and so So Those are tony sizes the third to the 12 your notes are Your notes are like a part of tony history. I mean, obviously they are I mean I had to because You know when we went to the studio and after we put the back to that cigar smoking situation You know, I'm sitting there and I'm setting up the kit and I also set up an astray Next to him a pedestal astray and I hear oh, he's not going to smoke in here and I go. Yeah, he is I'm telling you right now. There's cigar smoke in here. I'm just telling you And you know neumanns are hanging over us and tony comes in and sits down and Puffs on the cigar and up goes the smoke right into the microphone and I go right into 87. Yeah, it was just yeah and and so this was the recording of wilderness When the what we did this the the simp the orchestra stuff at a different studio for a full orchestra and a high ceiling um, that's when I got yelled at about the symbols um But it wasn't my fault and there's a and I'll tell you the story when we set up in the studio And once his kit was set up I would lay on the floor next to him off to his hi-hat With I'd lie there and I had a pad of paper, you know the the typical yellow pad of paper or those um You know the the journal books. They're red or black checkered looking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah like a composition book or whatever Yeah, the yeah the composition book. I got I got my original composition book that I had classic. Yeah, you know here's yeah, it's Still he probably yes, and he probably appreciated. I mean clearly he did because he came back when he said you're still here kid or Whatever like why are you still? You still doing here I don't know it makes sense. Yeah, so here it is. Here's my meat composition book start of clinic tour september 22nd 1996 so, you know I would sit On the ground next to him because after each take or something he was because he was always working on the music He would lean over and say blah blah, you know Remind me to change hi, you know Whatever it was that was relevant to that recording whether it was the song or the whole session or just Maybe a session down the road whatever it was. He would lean over. I would write it And we had no credible and and and that's kind of probably why I've got a huge stack of Paper everywhere because I wrote it all down and then When we'd tour and at hotels I if I I got up early. I just wake up early So every day I would I knew where his room was I'd write on a piece of paper what the schedule was We haven't we have to go to Letterman the car's picking you up at 11 You know, whatever it was and then I would say I've run to get a cup of coffee You know and I'd slip it under his door. So when he got up Because we didn't have cell phone. I didn't have a cell phone. They didn't have a beeper then So he'd get up and there would be a piece of paper slipped under his door. They would say here's a reminder of what's today I'm going to find steak and a you know coffee whatever it was. Yeah, so, you know, you're you're talking about Symbol story and this is a quick segue to waste more time of your night When we Got into the symbols and we changed out the k-ride to an a custom and we did a couple other things But the 15 inch hi hats stayed 15 inch hi hats Once we got those symbols You know because we get ahold of john king at silgeon and asked for some and then we'd pick them out And then we'd send back all the symbols that we Didn't need there was no need to keep the symbols. So we honed it into what became The a custom set up a custom here and And I said and he said this is it This is what we're bringing to la to record wilderness on leave the k's at home Okay Off we go We're at God, I don't I think it was oh henry studio I think oh henry was big enough to have the orchestra Somebody will correct me if i'm wrong Sure, you'll hear yeah, so the symphony the whole orchestra is in there. Tony had written the whole thing And so I took his kit and set it up in a vocal booth near the Console so he's in the console room Listening to the orchestra play and I set his kit up as kind of like a visual so he could look over at it And know that he wasn't going to play it it was because the orchestra was doing all of the music for wilderness But I put it there kind of like it's there, you know, just i'm gonna set it up Yeah, it's a reference. It's a security whatever it is comfort there you go comfort. It's it's that it's that just so you know I thought I did a good thing. Oh, you know, look at me. I'm smart At the end of the thing At the end of the day, I don't even know what day it was Maybe it was the last day or whatever day it was he notices That it's the a custom cymbal setup not the k and We're outside the studio and the thunder came down on me. I mean I was staying What I mean, whatever Effing words you want to use are coming out and you've got a man Angry cigar finger pointing and he's going you are gonna walk back to san francisco Grab those k's and you are gonna walk back to l. I mean it was not a joke It was man, but he's not playing though. No But you know and i'm sitting there going okay breathe and and this is just And calli and his wife is there And I said, okay, you said Now moving forward a custom setup is what we're using and you agree flip that in my mind But no that is yeah, what he said. That's what he said and he was just fuming and Oh, and then callin leaned in and said You know, he's right toni And that was it but for some reason something You know Look you you spend time with somebody somebody you're gonna say something that you're not happy that you said it You're you're gonna receive something that you shouldn't have received Everybody's guilty of saying the wrong thing or receiving the wrong thing It's what you do After it's how you If if we were in the schoolyard and I remember this as a kid you got in a fist fight with pat Right who are pat is at the end of the day you're at his house or he's at your house and you're playing hot wheels That's what happens you you you've got a relationship With somebody and something is said something is done You have to move on with it. You have to be able to go past because if you can't go past it's over at that point And yeah, and so we you're so close to him that it's he's You're you only you're kind of mad or you you treat people you're closest to Different than you do people who are kind of just on the fringe of like friendship, right? It's almost a compliment that he got. Yeah. Yeah that comfortable to you. Sure. I'll take Didn't feel like it. I'm sure at the time I was like that's a long walk from la to san francisco. Do you not know? That's a long one. So you know, it's Again, we're telling more tony stories than we are drums, but i'm trying to incorporate You know what happened when you know because it was important to tony and how he evolved and things were happening and You know keep repeating this stuff and you can chuck it out as you want But there are little things there that are on tony's dw kit that were not Part of the gretch It's just They weren't gretch was what gretch was and when he got to dw there were changes The number of drums the sizes of the drums the snare with 12. I mean there were significant all that yeah 1824 kick drums That's a big ass kick drum 1824 I play in 1824, but i'm playing you know 24 13 18 floor tom just You know tony's playing 24 and he's feathering the bass drum and that maple you know You're like I hear something and then it's exposed with the lights unbelievable, you know that talent And passion made the drums sing and maple shells dw collectors maple shells Are part of it. It's just that simple. That's that sound later on became that sound um Yeah, so man unbelievable. Well, you know, you know Yell that for cymbals. There you go. No, it's okay though, but you seem like you you've taken it all in stride and are Speaking very highly of him and it was without a doubt. I'm sure that was Uh a highlight of your life was working with what wouldn't trade. I mean, oh my god, uh, you know He Taught me so much that You you you you don't realize it but you carry it with you every day It's those things that you carry inside of you You know Father figure if you want a mentor again, I didn't study from him. I didn't work for him to Get drum lessons from him. I didn't you know, it wasn't into my wheelhouse to do swiss triplets I worked with tony because he asked me because he did his research on me which was flattering Yeah, and said, you know, ba ba ba and I went yes, and I didn't have any ulterior motive I wanted to be part of that situation because It doesn't come around that often No, I mean I walked out of a class at san francisco state I was in the argument with the teacher a little bit It was a music history class and the teacher was talking about music and I went you are so You know, like where are you going with this? You know, are you creating here? You know, and he says, you know, and he's giving me the finger like, you know You understand you're at school and and I said I have a chance to go out and tour with tony williams and you're talking about You know somebody I'm gonna go do this and I took off from the class being a part of music history. Yeah, I took out from the class You know I left so yeah, you know um And if somebody gets a hold of you later on or if there's a chance that I can come back Like if you get a round table going with paul and bisonette and john de christopher Maybe we can even get john good, you know, I talked to john. Yeah at the time Um, but john and don did that huge conversation that's online, you know at the 50th where they pulled me up on stage And there's a lot of talk about tony um I don't want to bore people with tony, but I want people to understand that You got to jump in and start listening to everything get the get the get the spock listen to spock You know go get those albums find them somehow get the music and listen to them Even if you go, what the hell is that again, listen with your ears close your eyes Then open your eyes and you'll hear it a different way And Drum time you hear the evolution of the drums, you know up to all maple and Everything that he became Yeah, it's awesome. Absolutely. That's a perfect way to kind of wrap this up because I mean it's uh This entire thing and I would love to do that like a round table type thing I mean this is a four episode mega deep dive into his gear But it's more than that when it gets into Who he is things beyond the gear the plane and there is a biography episode that I've plugged before that people can check out But um, and if if people email you later on and go, hey, I didn't catch What those sizes were just get a hold of me and I'll or you know, you or go back and I'll I'll email you the You know the first big kid at Tony's place, you know, it's the 9 12 9 13 people 10 13 Rack tom at 10 13 rack tom 2 13. It's right there, you know Yeah, it's unbelievable. And I mean what I appreciate about this is your willingness to help and be on this right now It's 10 30 on a Monday night when we're doing this. We are Complete drum nerd. Yeah, we're talking about drums though. I mean that's you know, it's it's it's drums are of physical and mental therapy I mean, yeah It's you know, there's a drum addiction out there and that's fine, you know, you know, we we have it Yeah, I've got a snare drum. Well, I don't have that snare drum. I want that snare drum Yeah, are you gonna play it very much? No, maybe I might hit it on a shelf But I wanted to see but it just sits there. Yeah, it just sits there. Yeah. Yeah, I look at it That's exactly. Yeah. Well, uh, garrison as we finish up here. Is there anything you want to plug personally? I know, I mean you're with dw you know that like Yacht about dw enough and don't I mean, I didn't but I didn't do it as a plug You have to you have to understand that totally understand that when when tony passed away and dw You know hired me I got to work and I still do with dawn and john. I mean, these are two guys That like tony taking the evolution of drumming to another level they took the evolution of making drums To another level and they still do john john used you get on the phone with john Or if you run into john at the at the shop, you know, he'll go I got a new wood coming in you got to see this thing. He you know, you run into dawn Yeah, he's still excited. You run into dawn over at the other building at the gym He's like, oh, sorry. I got to go make a recording. I'm working with thomas langer. I'm working with so and so but dawn and john passion They have a deep seated passion for Drumming musicians music community education tony same way passion for music education He wanted that whole series on education, you know get your phs kids, you know, yeah Get that funny little red tool and tighten it up Exactly that was my child right horizontal hold horizontal hold you yeah, so It's there's I'm not to plug anything I would just simply to the only thing I could plug Not so much to plug it, but I want to thank you. I want to thank you and paul. Thank you And thank paul for you know emailing A while ago going hey, I got questions about tony and I went well, we're going to talk about that, you know Started the whole thing. Well, yeah, I mean this is all yeah, you know, that was me kind of being I'm not going to tell you I'd rather tell the person that wants to know I'm glad it worked out the way it did where you came on because honestly it breaks it up a little too and Like I said, we cannot get this information from anyone else. So and paul's a great guy. I'm not So I love that information. He found just great. It was awesome. Yeah, so I thank you and I thank paul Well, thank you very much and I appreciate everyone listening I'd love to see people comment and just you know tell garrison how you like it and the comments and everything And and and add info if you saw clinics love hearing when people say they saw clinics and things like that So so comment and all that stuff. But anyway garrison, I appreciate you being here my friend and I hope to meet you in person And uh, yeah, thanks for your time, man. Thank you