 Like, how will it affect our lives and will it help, will it simplify, will it make it easier for us to transact and do business with each other and to transfer money? Our children and ourselves may have to find the answer to these questions in the future when the digital euro becomes, if the digital euro becomes something real. So we want to delve into these questions and more questions over the next hour. And I would like to say that you are all very welcome and welcome to the ECB. My name is Ronan Sheridan and I'm very delighted to be your moderator today. As I say, we'll be discussing all things digital euro. We have received many requests from you over the last weeks and months to involve you more in the investigation phase of the digital euro. And so we're trying to add a new twist to our usual seminar events by making this a bit more interactive than we would have done before. We're very keen to hear from you over the next hour and so we'll try and work together at focusing on particular topics which we will then delve into in a bit more detail. The outline of the hour may be to give you a bit more context. We will have a short presentation or a presentation shortly from my colleagues on the panel here beside me. And then we'll focus on two topics which we'll explore and decide on together. Then we can exchange about them, have a bit more of an in-depth discussion about those and then we should have some time left at the end for remaining questions or any open comments you wish to make or address. So before I introduce our speakers, my colleagues here as well, just a couple of housekeeping rules, the usual really. One, can you please try and keep your microphones on mute unless you're speaking? Can you turn your videos on if you encourage you to turn your videos on so we can make this a bit more of an engaging discussion? And if you have any technical issues with logging in or accessing the various polls that we'll put to you in the next step, well, please use the contact host in the chat function. And one of our colleagues will try and deal with your issues as soon as they possibly can. So with that, let me introduce Eveline Whitlocks, who's the leading digital euro project here at the ECB, no small task. And Jürgen Schaff, who is in charge of public communications for the digital euro. They will update us on the latest developments and some considerations around the project and where we are at the moment. And really, without any further introduction, let me hand over to them. Oh, I should add one further thing, which is that the seminar is being recorded so that while not live right now, it will be posted to our website channel in the next few days. So if you're joining us right now online, you're all, as I say, very welcome. And for those of you who are joining us and sharing the air with us sometime in the future, you, of course, are also very welcome. So over to you, Eveline. Thank you, Ronan. So let me do an introduction on the digital euro to get us started. Maybe good to know that the majority of the central banks, which is on the next slide, are working on CVDC. So the ECB is not working in isolation. Nine out of 10 banks are working on those. More than half of them are already developing or even running concrete experiments. And more than two thirds consider it likely or might possibly issue a retail CVDC in short or medium term. The reasons behind the increased work on CVDC are diverse. But in general, we see a couple of reasons for central banks to dive into this topic. First of all, they all are the emergence of cryptocurrencies and the COVID-19 pandemic that accelerated the work on the CVDCs. Next to that, we see that in advanced economics, economies, financial stability has increased in importance. And finally, we see in some countries, CVDCs are seen to alleviate limited operating hours, for example, or shorten the length of the transaction chains that are there. But from here, which is more general, let us zoom in on the digital euro. On the next slide, you see the two key objectives that the ECB has defined for issuing a digital euro. The first consideration is that we find it important that there remains a monetary anchor also in the digital space. As we all know, in the current environment, there is always the access to cash if you want to have access to central bank money. And in order to keep this confidence in the convertibility at par, we believe it's also important that in a digital age, where in some environments you can't even pay with cash and they take the e-commerce space, it's also important that people can convert their monies into a central bank currency. And that currency, of course, or central bank money should be widely accessible to the prospective users in the euro area countries. A second key objective that we see is that we need to defend the strategic autonomy of the euro area, where we think it's important that we decrease our dependency of non-European payment solutions and that we can increase the economic efficiency of this area. Because as you all know, if there are only a few competitors, then it's difficult to contain the cost. So we believe it's important that there is something to choose from. If we then move to the next slide, there you see the definition that we use. So we say the digital euro is a digital central bank liability for retail payments. So we're not talking about wholesale payments today of citizens and businesses in the entire euro area. A couple of key messages that we have been given and we will continue to give and we take on board in the whole investigation phase is that we believe that the digital euro should complement and not substitute cash or wholesale central bank deposits. Another important message is that supervised intermediaries, so banks, payment service providers, PSPs, will facilitate the distribution of the digital euro. And finally, we believe that the digital euro as a source of innovation and a public good shall not crowd out the banks or hinder in the innovation in payments. If we then go to the next slide, here you see the program plan that we have. We have embarked in the investigation phase in October last year and we are planned to go back to the governing council in Q3 2023. So also maybe on the comment earlier said that it took us some time to be able to do the reach out to the full market. This was also because we were in a startup phase of the investigation phase. So in Q4 last year, we have spent on staffing the program. I myself, for example, started the 1st of January and to do our first analysis. At the end of the first quarter, we have published a focus group report which we have done at the end of last year and we have discussed and shown what we think are the use cases that we should prioritize for the digital euro as a starting point for discussion and interaction with the market. Currently we are working on the new batch of design elements and that we have shared, for example, with the ERPB and I will come back on our governance on the next slide. At the beginning of April and we are now in dialogue with the market on these topics. So those are the ones that you see at the bottom of Q2. So for example, on and offline, but also the transfer mechanism and also the options that we have to moderate the amount of digital euros in circulation. And we will do this step by step over the coming quarters. The planning is that all design analysis have been done by the end of Q1 2023 and that we have taken all decisions. And then we take one last holistic view on the digital euro because we need to slice the elephant in order to come to the final design. But some decisions that we might take now in principle might need to be reconsidered if you see the whole of the whole. So there is a final review of the holistic picture at the beginning of Q2 2023. And then the rest of the time we will use to prepare the end advice, which will be an advice whether or not to go to the implementation phase. And if the advice would be to go to an implementation phase, it needs to be accompanied by an implementation plan. So this is a timeline. It says a long and windy road. But I can tell you having to think this through and to discuss it with everybody a two year is really a challenge for us. Let's go to the next slide. And that is the last slide that I will present to you. And it says something about how we govern and how we do the stakeholder management. So in the middle, you see the organization within the euro system. So that is the project team at the bottom that reports into the high level task force, as we called within the ECB. And that reports via the executive board to the governing council. But we're not working in isolation. So we work also very closely with the political stakeholders that you see on the left hand side. We have an European Commission and ECB contact group that meet every month. And also there we investigate certain topics, which will be taken along for the political stakeholders and that we take along in our in our project, these analysis and political stakeholders. I don't think I need to explain to you, but are the European Parliament, the European Council and the European Commission. On the right hand side, you see the markets, market stakeholders. And we have in our program governance, the market advisory group in which we have selected experts that are there on a personal title. They have joined us from the beginning. And then we have announced beginning of April that the discussion with the market, we want to channel via the ERPB, the Euro Retail Payments Board. And there we do that in batches again. So we do a technical seminar where everybody can join and listen in. Then there is a written procedure. And then with the major stakeholders, we have a bilateral interchange and that input we take along into the decision making. And of course, we also have next to that the special interest groups. And this session that we have today is also to cater for having an interaction with each other there. And with that, I hand back to Ronan. Thank you very much, Evelyn. So really a lot of I think outline of a lot of complexity a really detailed project and so many stakeholders, really, that it's just such a huge task. The more those of us who are involved can understand and see how many moving parts there are in this project. So it's really good to have your involvement today as well. So we sent you an email last week on the topics that we would focus on today. So now we would like, as I said at the start to decide what those particular topics are that we should focus on in more depth and more detail. So we have a quick poll for you and the way in which you can access this poll via WebEx, the WebEx screen in front of you that you're using today. I mean, just checking the drop down menus that you can see the chat and then under this that you're under the Slido window. And then for you should begin to see this set of this multiple choice question we have for you. You can enter the link Slido.com. And once you're there, you can use the passcode digital euro, all one word. And that will also get you on to this on to this quick this quick poll. And then also you can you can scan a QR code as well, which you should see on the screen. Now, the questions, the multiple choice questions we have for you are which topics tied to the digital euro. Would you like to discuss and we have limited this to four privacy, financial inclusion, comparison with crypto assets. And then the final one is product features and design. So when we have a sense of how what you're feeling is of this as a group, then we can focus on those two topics in particular. And then as we mentioned at the start, when we have a bit more time at the end of the session, we can then also address any remaining questions or comments that you have. So I think that it's a it's a very interesting topic because all of these are extremely interesting topics. I mean, all of the I mean, we know privacy is something that has become has been very interesting for a right in the right from the start of the digital Euro consultation back in 2020 and financial inclusion is super important. It's very important for us in the ECB and I'm sure it's very important to you to not everybody is has access to electronic services in the same way shape or form that others have. In terms of the product features and design, well, personally, that seems like a very exciting aspect of this because it could, of course, we're still in the in the at the stage of deciding what it is, so it could be many different things. And and we have to we're still obviously in this investigation phase trying to find out what it is that we would do with that. And of course, we all know that the comparison to crypto is something which is, you know, what is an asset, what is a currency? And you probably have a sense of how we feel about that if you've been following this at all in the last while. Certainly, if I look now at at the the kind of responses and I think you can see these two on the on the on the thing, the product features and design look like they are they're streaking ahead in the lead and then it's between privacy. Well, no, great. Thank you. Whoever just added an extra answer in there, much appreciated that. I don't have to make some kind of choice of Solomon. And so so then let's focus on privacy then as well, which of course is super important. So then let's take these two product features and design and privacy as the two that we focus on and for the more in-depth discussion that we have over the next few minutes. So then taking the first one, product features and design. I suppose I would say that in my way of introduction to this before I hand over to Jürgen, designing a digital euro has to meet a wide set of characteristics. And at the heart of this is how it is going to be used by citizens and businesses and those who will it will make this a reality. In fact, I mean, we we can do so much, but then people have to use it. So then we will come to another poll. So we will ask you another pop of question, which we then will the pop of question. What is the what what is the feature that is the most important to you as a potential digital euro user? So what feature is most important to you as a potential digital euro user? And this is not the same as the last choice. We're not going to just focus on that answer. We just want to understand a bit and get a sense from yourselves. What it is that how you feel and we will be really keen to know that because while I do that and while you do that, while you're kind of figuring out how you want to answer that, I turn to Jürgen Shaft to give a bit more detail on this. Yeah, thank you very much, Ronan. And thank you very much for choosing that question, which is, of course, to our hearts, very close and important. And we cannot give you now the details of how digital euro in the end to front end would look like in the future. So whether it's a wallet or how the wallet would look like, but to bring you a bit closer cases where people would be able to use a digital euro, a digital euro. So the payment situation in which people might use a digital euro, we have prioritized those use cases. So the first version of the digital euro will probably not cover everything, but a couple of them will gain priority. Without having said that the others will not follow because definitely a digital euro will need to be future proof and open to developments that are even not foreseeable now. So what we prioritized was and is that person to person payments is important, that is, so I could pay to Evelyn like handing over a bank note or to Ronan, a bank note. I would then transfer from my device, whatever that looked like. So that's person to person. Another high priority is consumer to business. That is where you pay. So you go into a shop and the grocery and you pay at the cashier or you order something online and you would then pay with the digital euro. That that are the example from C to B or consumer to business. And then payments to government or the other way around. One major example is of course that you might be able to pay taxes with a digital euro. And the other way around is that social transfers, allowances and the like could be transmitted, transferred by the government, which is of particular importance and usefulness in emergency cases where transfers from the government have to be paid out quickly. The other two use cases like business is important, but it will not have the highest priorities in our investigation. And likewise, the many machine initiated payments fully automated in between machines might also come only later. So here you have at least a overview of our priorities for the digital euro 1.0, if you will, and for the time being, let's stop here and then discuss a bit more detail in the Q&A. Thank you, Jürgen. Thank you very much. Yeah, very interesting that Central Bank money and that direct claims to Central Bank is something that people are most interested in indeed. So I think now we will open the floor to some questions. So if anybody has raised their hand or the virtual hand, of course, and would like to give us any thoughts, questions, comments on what Jürgen has said or anything else with regard to this, we would be very open and really would like to hear from you. So I think it's always a bit difficult for people to get going and start typing. You're obviously very happy. Thank you very much for your engagement in actually already voting one way or the other, but it certainly will be great for us to get a number of questions. So I see that Vojtek has raised his hand. So thank you very much. Vojtek, maybe we start with you and then if you would just unmute your microphone and yeah, thank you for sharing your video with us as well. And over to you for your question or your comment. Yes, thank you so much for this event and for the invitation. A short question about the design. Why do you seem to, or maybe I understand this, but why do you think from the start, that the ECD would be the operator itself of the system? In the sense, why is it private operators that would be regulated, that you assume as the future operators of the digital neuron? I will be following the Swedish discussions for instance, and they are very much open about that kind of arbitrage between public operators and private ones regulated. Thank you. Thank you. So Jürgen, Evelin, would you like to take that question now? Or we take another question first, or do you want to take this now? I can take it now. Great, yeah, please. Well, indeed, we foresee a hybrid approach to issuing and distributing the digital euro. So the underlying asset will definitely come from the ECB. It will be on the balance sheet of the ECB and it will have all the features of central bank money, that is the stability, the liquidity, the reliability and the finality when you pay and settle this. But the intention is not to set up a distribution system that is completely run by the European central bank and the euro system. So we foresee then next to this issuance of the asset, a distribution model system frame, if you will, details need to be spelled out and later decided that definitely foresee a role for the private sector because we believe that first of all, the allocation of credit, that's one important thing, should continue to come from the banks and second of all, the innovative power of the private sector to develop front end solution, to come up with new services and all this, this is much better placed in the private sector, but there might be competition. On the other hand, it needs to be regulated to avoid a too granular fragmentation or ideally to avoid fragmentation at all. So the division is indeed a hybrid tiered framework where we issue the underlying asset and the role and the level of involvement of the private sector needs to be seen in more detail over time in the investigation phase and later, but it's definitely foreseen that there's a cooperative solution or let's say a public-private partnership. Great, thank you for that, thanks very much. So great, thanks to everybody who has since added in a number of questions. So maybe we take a number of questions together so that we can then get a more rounded response then from all the questions we get. I'm also mindful of the time so that we move on to the second topic in due course. So over to Gerhard, Gerhard Hummer, you have a question as well. So over to you, please. Thank you. From SME United, if we look into the topic, mainly from a point of view of small merchants and from this point of view, of course, the digital euro may become a very interesting opportunity for merchants to have literally payment systems for customers online and offline, which are less expensive than the current solutions. And my question is now on the design is, you said in the introduction that you want not to grab out the banks and you also now spoke about this hybrid model, but should we be afraid that if you don't bypass the current payment systems with the digital euro that it will not become cheaper for merchants when you also have to involve the banks and the schemes, et cetera, et cetera? Or is there a possibility to bypass them to make it really an attractive cheap model where you can execute payments directly from the consumer to the merchant without the costly system between? Very interesting and very much a good question. So before we take that, I see Jonas Kroos also has a question or a comment. Jonas, over to you. Yes, thank you very much for the invitation for having this event. It's really great to have also associations being heard, so thanks for that. You have mentioned in the initial presentation that basically one of the key goals of the digital euro is to defend strategic autonomy, which I think is a really great thing. Here, let's now assume, and I know there is no decision has been taken yet, but if the ECB decides to issue a digital euro, would this also mean that this digital euro will be provided, developed by a payment provider and by a tech provider that is based in the euro area because it's focused on the euro area? Or is it also possible that assuming the council will proceed with developing a digital euro but also like a party that is not based in the euro area can support with the development of the infrastructure? Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks very much. So maybe we take one or two more. And so Mark Beckman, Mark, you have a question or a comment? Yeah, thanks a lot also for my side. I have organized this event. I work for Positive Money Europe and we think it's really important that citizens are being included and their voice being heard in this design process on the digital euro. And as this is an invitation-only event, we organized a survey beforehand on the digital euro and asked people questions about their views. People shared many concerns with us about the importance of privacy, the environmental footprint of digital currencies, as well as the power that private banks and finance have over people. And we asked roughly 100 people participating in the survey and we asked one question about the proposed holding limits for digital euro accounts at 3,000 euros and about a quarter of people said that they wouldn't use digital euro accounts if such limit would be instituted. So I'd like to ask what are your views on this and how would you like to convince these people why they should still use the digital euro? Very interesting. Thanks very much, Mark. So then with those three questions, then maybe we can get in, we can ask Elin or Jürgen. So just to sum up and I hope I can read my own very bad writing. So Gerhard was asking about the possibility to make effectively is it possible to get a kind of a cheaper model and that way we could go direct without having an expensive scheme in the middle. If I understood, I hope I haven't synthesized your question too much Gerhard. Jonas was asking about whether this would be a euro-based or a kind of infrastructure will be developed on a very euro-based level or outside of that. Is it possible that could be also open to some players outside of the euro area? And then Mark, thank you very much for sharing on the survey. And also that point about a 3,000 euro limit that up to a quarter of people wouldn't necessarily use it based on the survey of people that you had addressed and looked into. So maybe Evelin or Jürgen, I don't know who wants to take any or either or all of those. Let me take the first and then Jürgen can add where I forget. So on the first point, so of course when we now design the digital euro we will do this in a way that we can do it as efficient as possible. So that is one element on which we hope and strive for a cost-efficient solution for the merchants, for all, but also for the merchants. I think, and the second one, it's more connected also in the key objective is that we believe if there is sufficient competition in the market that this will also balance out in the market. So for us the economic efficiency is one of the key objectives that we have put in our key objectives as I told you before at the beginning. And these are the two elements that we think will contribute to that. Then the other question whether this will be, how it will be sourced I would say, I think I could say that indeed the strategic autonomy is very important and that this is a European solution is very important to us as well. Once we go into procurement phase for certain elements of the solution we of course need to also follow procurement rules that are there, but we're really looking for a European solution. And then the last question on the holding limits this is something that we are still in a design phase. So the reason why we're thinking about holding limit limits is to safeguard financial stability. And so one of the differences between central bank money and the current digital payment forms is that they use commercial bank money. And the fact that the digital euro is a direct liability on the central bank does something with the liquidity position of the banks. That's also why we, that's one of the reason why we said we don't want to crowd out the banks. We will be, we want to have a portion in the market. We believe some of that portion will come from cash because we added is also one of the drivers to start thinking about the digital euro. But we also foresee that it might take some of the liquidity from the commercial banks and we need to safeguard also financial stability because the banks are also very important in that area for Europe. What we are thinking is what we call tools to control the maximum amount in circulation or the amount in circulation. And what we currently do is that we develop these kind of tools and to say, okay, these we're going to put in. But we also know that the financial situation at the time of possible introduction is very different than now. So a holding limit is considered but whether we're going to use it at a time of issuance and what would be the height is something that we will only decide much closer to the issuance date. And I hope, and this is one of the things that we also want to test in the second round of focus group, which is at the end of this year that next to having these tools that need to work to keep the financial stability. On the other hand, we need to make sure that the product stays attractive and usable for the users. So we need to find the fine balance and I hope that this answers your question. Thank you. Yeah, thanks very much for the really good questions. And then also I think the comprehensive answers. And so look, unfortunately, we don't have time to take all the questions that are not the hands that are raised so that we can move on to the next topic as well. But perhaps we could ask Jan and Martin. So Jan, you first then Martin to ask a question. And then after that, please feel free to type your question in the chat and we will endeavor to address it separately afterwards so that we certainly want to capture all of your insights and thoughts on this. And so we can refer back to you on them too. So, Jan, over to you if you want to make a comment. Thank you very much. Jean-Elix from the European Consumer Organization. Competition is very important in payment. We have not enough competition. And for this perspective, your digital euro is very much welcome. But Evelyn has said at the beginning that the distribution will be done by supervisory intermediary mentioning banks and PSPs. Here, I have doubt because if I compare with cash, physical cash, it's more and more difficult for consumer to have access to physical cash. Why? Because banks are not interested in physical cash and you have another department of the ECB who is fighting for the maintenance of the distribution of cash. And so with digital euro, if you give the distribution of digital euro to banks, it will happen the same things because banks will favor the payment means for which are the most profitable for them. It's very clear. And we see that with cash. We see that with the non-development of instant payment because they consider that it's not profitable for them and they don't develop it. And so why not? You can, we can imagine that you have intermediary who should not be banks but who should be our national central bank or subsidiary of national central bank or any kind of body with those body and not having the possibility to kill the competition between the payment instrument. Here we see a huge concern. And if at the end you decide to distribute digital euro through the banking system, which measure will you take to be sure that the digital euro will be really available to consumer not what is the situation in cash where the fees are more and more expensive where the ETM are closing and so on and so on. It's a very sensitive issue from the consumer side how the distribution of euro digital will be done. Thank you very much. So very, very much noted. Martin, do you want to have very succinct comment? Or yes, please. Yeah, so it was just first on the questions that you put forward on the features of the digital euro. I found it weird that you would ask if the digital euro should be a claim on the central bank because how could it be otherwise? And it's like asking if a car should have four wheels. But then, so just a quick question on the clarification between the difference with regular bank money and how would that be an added value of digital euro? How would that be an added value? Especially if the commercial banks are the ones who will make it available. Now, with regards to financial stability, have you envisaged moving towards a full reserve monetary system? And if not, how would the creation and destruction mechanisms of the digital euro work? So for instance, when you send money, bank money basically from one bank to another, there are also assets that need to move between banks as well. So bonds, cash, you know. So how would it work when converting bank money to central bank currency? Would banks send the ECB an equivalent in assets to the money that is converted to digital euro by consumers or businesses? I mean, how would it basically work in that sense? So would the banks send you, for instance, the debts that they've created, for instance, the debt contracts or whatever, that are an asset equivalent to the amount of cash or digital currency? The currency that is converted into the digital euro? I mean, that's just very unclear to me the destruction creation mechanism behind the digital euro and how you convert from one system to another. Thanks. Thank you. Yeah, so that's a big question. These are big questions, but I have a short answer to these big questions. I mean, the one that John raised, of course, as well with regard to a plea, really, that we don't make it so that the digital euro is sort of strangled. Yeah. And then the second question, of course, obviously, that you just heard. The question on banknotes and competition is absolutely important and valid. And on the continuance of issuing banknotes from the central bank side, I think there's not one single speech, for example, from our board member or president where the topic of a digital euro is covered, where it's not made clear that we will continue to issue banknotes. So there's a clear promise from our side. Having said that, there's the competition between various payment solutions, front ends, or whatever it looks like in the current system, and then with banknotes. In all those jurisdictions that we've observed, the decline in the usage of banknotes, of cash, has been mainly driven by the demand from customers and merchants. To our knowledge, at least, it was not necessarily the banks who were driving this. It's costly for them. That's true. But you go in various countries, in particular, north of Europe, where it's the merchants and the consumers who prefer to pay with other means of payments. What we can do is we want to take care that cash is still continued to be provided. And the second thing is that we want to have a competing environment where the private sector when involved comes up with innovative and competing solutions, and that should put pressure on the various price and fees that probably will be there. The second speaker or that there was a range of questions. First of all, apologies for explaining the difference between the various claims that are out there. It's good that you know this, but there's a lot of confusion elsewhere what about the different digital monies are. So it was supposed to be a service to those who are less educated than you are. Apologies for that. Second point is whether we've reflected on coming up with a kind of fall-geld or a full reserve system. No, we don't. So we are trying to come up with a solution that caters for the changes that we see, a digitalization of payments. And it's actually not within our mandate to reflect upon the underlying financial system and the monetary system as it's established that would go beyond. So we are acting within the existing financial system. If there's a need to discuss this more fundamentally, it would be more up to the elected parties, the parliament and the like to do this that would stretch a bit our mission. I would leave it there. Great, yeah, no, thank you very much. Indeed, so it turns out that somebody voted just after we had finished at the start on the multiple choice. So product features got knocked back and privacy skipped up to the higher level. We still will of course have time to talk about product features and design when we come to the end. But given then that the voting process is sacrosanct as we all know, we'll stick with privacy even though we let someone vote it afterwards. We're sort of still saying that's the case. So we'll focus on privacy. So yeah, I mean just slight introduction to privacy. Well, I was following on from those last two questions or comments which were really interesting and strong as well, privacy is clearly an area of concern for many. When we spoke about the digital euro in our digital euro consultation a couple of years ago, this came out quite strongly. It's important for us in developing a digital euro as well. When we exchange money, we communicate in some form, we exchange information and the levels of data that we are willing or kind of comfortable with transacting as part of that process or even in terms of what protections are available and what we are thinking about and how we're thinking about it is something we'd like to explore more here as well. So there is a presentation so which Jürgen will give I think now on the topic of privacy. So maybe to kind of sketch out the levels and the approaches that we were looking at. Let Jürgen take it from here. Thank you very much, Ronan. And thank you for rating this so high because this is also very important to us. All the offered topics are important but this is also particularly interesting because as Ronan said in the public consultation it was actually ranked highest whereas when we approached a bit closer the retail users it was also a ranked very high but not the highest. So it's a very important but complex phenomenon and it's by no means a black and white discussion. So there are huge areas which are gray where we have to investigate how the whole thing will look like and also very important for the investigation phase there's no decision taken yet in particular because we are not the only ones who are involved here and having to decide it will also involve the co-legislator so it's much broader and we are not completely free in deciding but on the conceptual side you have the extremes. So this is now to distinguish between not black and white but with some gray areas that are the white range. In the extremes you would have full anonymity like you have basically with cash. What we can say here, this has to be possibly probably excluded because we could not then comply with AML and other legislation that is probably not possible. So we will not pursue that. Then the other extreme would be full transparency to the ECB. We would know which onboarding we would see all the transaction data, the volumes and everything. So this would be a violation of our understanding what privacy actually means. So that's also basically and conceptually excluded. What we have then is a kind of a basic scenario that we more or less foresee that would be in order to comply first with the legislation on AML and anti-terrorist financing that the know your customer procedures would be taken when the client is onboarding and the transactions and maybe the volumes are seen are transparent when it's required for AML purposes, for example. So next to this baseline scenario, we also have a view what could also be an option based on the technical and legal restrictions or possibilities that we see in the investigation phase. So that could be, for example, that we see we have a KYC, the know your customer during onboarding, but beyond that, there wouldn't be much to be seen by the intermediary and also an option that we could have a closer look up that we have a selective privacy levels that we could adjust. So let's say below a particular value, there are more relaxed transparency rules and only when you exceed a certain transaction volume then transparency has to increase. But again, so these gray areas need to undergo further investigations and examinations and we are not the only ones who decide there. So I think for the introduction of the topic, that's enough. Yeah, thank you very much. So we still want to ask you a question. We still want to ask you a question to sort of maybe, again, just to draw you out a bit on what it is that you yourselves feel following on from Jürgen's presentation there. What level of privacy would you prefer? So again, if you wouldn't mind voting on that in the same way that you have for the previous questions, that would be really helpful before we then kick off another conversation discussion. So again, again, we'll focus on them all, but I mean anonymity, non-transparent, to third party, transparent to an intermediary, the person sitting in the middle, selective privacy, lots of different options. So, okay, I think it's already, well, yeah, I spoke too soon, it's already moving. So selective privacy looks like it's coming out on top along with anonymity. So maybe we focus on those to get ourselves going in terms of the conversation. And so maybe then if you could ask, maybe give us some of your comments and again, raise your hand in the chat and we'll come to you. And if you could, when you're unmuting this time, maybe also give the organization that you're speaking for, thanks to those who already did this when they were introducing themselves, but that would also be helpful. So yeah, again, if anyone has any questions or thoughts on privacy, now would be a really good time to ask us some of your questions. It's certainly, when I think of privacy, we also, we all think about privacy in the element of cash instruments and we have our, we obviously have our bank cards, our PayPal, we have so many different options, we have cash and we all have strong views it seems on what privacy means and how important it is to us when we're making transactions, when we're choosing how we wanna spend our money and how we want people to know about it, for example. And then of course we always have anti-money laundering considerations which are very important for us as a society. So there is also constraints and tensions no matter where you look. So perhaps we would start with Mark who thankfully has asked a question in the chat. Thanks very much Mark. So Mark maybe over to you if you want to unmute your mic and just maybe you mentioned who you're representing over your organization and then please your comment. Thanks Matt. I'm working for Positive Money Europe, NGO based in Brussels. Again, referring to the survey we did in advance of this event, about 30% of respondents showed that they are skeptical about the digital euro and what 20% said that they're outright against it. And this often referred to the concerns about privacy. Privacy was ranked first in terms of our respondents' importance that they touch to different design features. And I think there's a real danger in the ECB not taking this seriously enough. And I think it has potential to contribute to the failure in the digital euro in the sense that it limits uptake sufficiently. That it significantly limits uptakes. And a personal note, I am wondering why to me it seems like the ECB is privileging compliance with AML and counter-terrorist financing legislation over the compliance with the fundamental right to privacy and the existing laws on data protection. And I don't understand why it seems to me one would sacrifice compliance with regulations on privacy by ensuring compliance with other AML and CFG regulations. Thanks, Mark, yeah, thank you. Let's take a few more questions then together and then we will come to the answers. So Martin Malzweed, if you want to unmute and tell us what you're representing. So I'm representing Kofase Families Europe, which is a European NGO representing families, representing the interests of consumers, families, civil society. So the questions I had, well, first I wanted to echo what has just been said. I mean, I also think that we shouldn't consider that AML is now set in stone and that we should not reconsider AML. And we've underlined that many times in financial inclusion because there's this hypocritical kind of attitude where obviously the people that are excluded from accessing the bank account are also in many cases people that cannot comply with AML because they're newly arrived migrants or they're homeless people. So I mean, it's a very hypocritical kind of thing to say that AML is what prevents us from doing things when there's sometimes other reasons for doing these kind of things. And we should maybe rethink AML first. And the second thing is a very quick question. Do you envisage to regulate stable coins to prevent them from being more appealing in terms of privacy? Because for now, there are many stable coins that you can access, open an account with no KYC procedure whatsoever. Thank you. Thanks, yeah. Jonas, please. Yes, thank you very much also for asking the question and quite interesting results, I guess. Well, I also want to provide you my perspective because I think selective privacy and anonymity is really a good way to go for a few reasons. The first one is basically that we all want the digital euro in the end to be a success, of course, right? But not as much as a success that it undermines financial stability, of course, right? But one USP, there could be, is basically that you could provide just higher privacy than today's existing forms of money in the digital realm, right? So basically improve privacy here. And maybe the second comment is that very often it said a CBDC is a digital form of cash, which I totally agree with. But then I would also kind of expect that also the privacy level are at least similar to cash, right? They don't need to be exactly the same. But for cash, we also have a threshold approach. So basically, as I would interpret it, selective privacy that if there is a monetary threshold which has exceeded, then you have to provide your information about yourself, right? And we have this for e-money today as well, but the thresholds are like in the hundreds that's way lower. So for me, it's in the end, the balance where this limit lies for a selective privacy here. And I personally hope that it's rather in the direction of cash and not e-money, but this is in the end also to be defined by the regulators in the end, and shortly, of course, with the decision makers here. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Jean, you have a question. Thank you. I think it's necessary to go more in detail about privacy. And the three examples in blue that in the slide are for me not enough precise. The question is not the holding balance or that kind of thing. The question is who can know what kind of transaction I have done? It's not the holding balance. It's the kind of transaction and the fact that this is part of my privacy. And I think as we guard AML for the time being in the package which are under discussion between the council and the parliament, there is a debate on the amount for cash transaction. The commission has proposed 10,000. The parliament is proposing 5,000. Above this amount, no problem. I am full rule of AML, we'll apply. But for the amount below the transaction, when the transaction is done below this amount, why we don't apply for digital law, the same rules as for physical cash. The idea is not to the holding balance and know your consumer when you open an account because I think the identity will be a possibility for that. But after that, no knowledge of anybody which kind of transaction I do. That's the same situation as for physical cash. And it's why I think it's necessary to elaborate more about the various categories and even your choice, your preferred choice, strong pound to intermediary. I find that it's not at all really privacy protection. Yeah, thank you very much. So which kind of measure you imagine to more protect this aspect of privacy of the transaction? I don't mention the fact is the opening of the account. I need my concern is the protection of the transactions. Yeah, thank you. So with that, I think what I would do is I would sort of maybe sum up and rather than responding to those because I think these comments are very well made, take your comment, Jan, which is just made there about protecting the transaction. Also then Martin's comment about regulating stable coins and whether it's not a bit hypocritical sometimes to basically not understand that there are people who cannot comply with financial inclusion rules simply because they're sort of not really captured by the system in the first place. And then also whether or not, again, by Mark that we're perhaps privileging compliance over the privacy laws. So we take those all on board. Maybe then with a view to maybe then giving a couple, we have just a few more minutes. We're right nearly running out of time. But we did say we would have some time at the end for more conversation, more questions on anything else we haven't touched on yet. So perhaps we could do that for five minutes and then we can close the session. So with that, I would ask you if you have any more general questions that we haven't touched on or thoughts and granted, please note that we really do only have a few minutes left before we have to close the session. So again, over to you, please. If you have any comments or final questions before we close the session, please let us know. Hi, Jonas. Yes, you have a question or a comment. Please go ahead. Actually, it was my previous question, but first, I really thank you for inviting us and including us in the dialogue. So I think that's really a key step and just wanted to say thank you and hope that we have more of these sessions in the future. Thank you. Thank you, yeah. Indeed, anybody else then? Are we going to be helped with our punctuality? No, OK, then perhaps then in conclusion, then. And I mean, following on from that, Jonas, thank you very much. Yeah, it's really all we have time for. Thank you all for your time and particularly your contributions. Hope you enjoyed our attempt to make this a more interactive seminar. We're kind of building on the feedback we got from you before. And of course, like all these sessions, we have a survey that we would be very happy if you would answer just a couple of questions. This is anonymous. So no full protection, as they say. And we're just only using this as a way of helping ourselves to see how we could maybe improve these sessions in the future. It just remains for me to say thanks very much to Evelyn and to Jurgen for sharing some additional light on the investigation phase and for hearing the views of our civil society organizations today. At the start, I posed some open-ended questions. And of course, it is not really resolvable in one hour. It will probably take us more months and maybe years before we are definitively able to answer those questions. But we really are committed to hearing from you and to involving you in so far as we possibly can in this investigation phase. And we do hope that today you've felt seen and heard. And thank you very much for that. So with that, I'd like to conclude to close the session and to say to you all, go well. And until we see each other again, goodbye.