 We've evolved a lot in a lot of different areas, whether it be through, you know, technology, whether it be in medicine, whether it be in society and so on. But for the last 200 years, we have seen zero change when it comes to the workspace, the office space, and the classroom. So innovation doesn't happen in a linear way, right? Innovation happens only through disruption. And the disruption that was needed came in 2020 for those very two things. And so the way in which we work and educate has been changed forever. And that's only just started. It's only just been initiated in 2020. And even though it looks messy, right, you know, when chaos happens, you know, it's chaos, right? It's messy. There's uncertainty and so on. But before the calm, like before, before the dust settles, there always needs to be the chaos. Melissa Arnatovic is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Melissa is a thought leader, international speaker, experienced trainer, entrepreneur, educator, transformation coach, CEO, and founder of live in training and a human being. She is a wonderful person. We're also connected through Future IO Institute, where we've both done a masterclass last year. Her purpose is to positively impact the world by empowering people and organizations to expand their consciousness in order to experience their exponential potential. Her purpose every day and has worked directly with thousands of people across 50 plus countries providing applicable tools that help with mindset and methods that are needed to make a true transformational lasting change. She has a 13 plus years experience in global retail, fast moving consumer goods and other various industries within large multinational organizations covering everything from strategy, business, innovation, people development, marketing, training, data analytics, sales, distribution management across all regions Europe, North and South America, Africa and Asia Pacific. She is an advocate of lifelong learning, self actualization, passionate about people development, reinventing what it means to work and educate in 2020 and well beyond. Her concepts combine business, neuroscience, psychology, neuro linguistic practitioner practices, anthropology, and transformational learning methods. Melissa, welcome to the show. I love that beautiful smile so glad to have you on the show. Thank you, Mark. It's awesome to be here with you. Thank you for having me. How have you been? It's the new year where what January 4 now and how did you weather this, this time this this crazy lockdown Christmas holiday New Year's. Yeah, that's right. We went into several different more and more lockdowns right and we're already at the fourth of January so as you can see time in itself is a funny concept we could go into a rabbit hole with that but you know how I've weathered it I think overall 2020 to be honest I found to be an absolute blessing of a year. The thing is, we've evolved a lot in a lot of different areas whether it be through, you know, technology whether it be in medicine whether it be in society and so on. But for the last 200 years, we have seen zero change when it comes to the workspace, the office space and the classroom. So innovation doesn't happen in a linear way right innovation happens only through disruption and the disruption that was needed came in 2020 for those very two things. And so the way in which we work and educate has been changed forever and that's only just started it's only just been initiated in 2020. Even though it looks messy right you know when chaos happens, you know, it's chaos right it's messy there's uncertainty and so on. But before the calm like before, before the dust settles that always needs to be the chaos like after chaos comes the calm. And so I've actually been really happy to see this disruption come up in 2020 because we haven't changed for 200 years what it means to work and have an education. It needed to change it needed to change because today, what we class as meaningful work, and what we class as quality education are very different. And so that ability to adapt and be resilient and change with the times is so important now and so actually, even though of course at the beginning, you know, everyone resist change it's just human behavior it's unknown there's fear. But rather than focusing on what you're going to lose you know when you lose comfort lose the comfort zone. I was just so excited and focused about what was coming because I could I could see as you can relate to very much a future thinker strategic thinker. So for me 2020 was like, well, this is now the time to accelerate the change that we want to see in the world right because things happen so slowly overall until a disruptive moment happens. So for those two things, at least from my experience and in my view, work and education 2020 was the pivotal year, but it's just the beginning. So I'm even more looking forward to 2021, which is that we are literally reshaping what that means. And it's never going to be the same again companies are already talking about how they're going to integrate, you know, degrees and education in their in their workspaces. Now the question is, do you even need an office anymore, or should we have maybe multiple in different places, or, you know, the working hours and so on so it's changing an entire way of living, which also means, you know, getting up in the morning getting on the train ride or getting in your car on the hours you spend on your commute, you know the clocking in and clocking out concept of time at work. Micro management, which was also a huge topic I'm also very passionate about changing the way in which we lead lead teams. That's also shifting so and on top of that, like things that you'd be familiar with is that the entire concept of a city is now also in question, because where are all the jobs, where's everyone's great jobs where do they drive to work in a big city right. And now if you don't have to drive to work after drive to a location where your job is, or you could live anywhere you could change your quality of life you could increase it. And then things like you know even Silicon Valley and so on are currently being disrupted because the whole concept is changing. So, these aren't small shifts we are literally in a moment in history right now and I find that accelerating to be honest. So beautiful and so it's so wonderful to hear your positive. Take on that and that you've weathered this crazy year. That's past us now thank goodness and such a positive way I had the similar experience where it was just everything quadrupled for me it was busy and ever and people were seeing things differently stuff and bubble to the surface. The surface things were put under the microscope and and people were ready for that disruption that change and they didn't like the past that we were seeing that you know if we continue on that, those past that they were currently on. That wasn't what they wanted they realized wow those are not very nice futures not very exciting to continue on that we're going to see more of the same. It's really interesting because the way we, we know each other was kind of by happenstance we're both faculty of a future I oh Institute both did master class at the beginning of 2020 which is still going on is still being produced there's another course starting soon. I, and I was, I, before that I think our past and crossed a little bit and not really but I saw I'm so glad that we could have this, this call and this discussion and kind of find out a little bit more but I would like to know what was your master class on and how was it and what how did you get into that and what kind of message are you trying to give people in 2020 you know online master class. Yeah that's a great point Mark so yeah from my side I was actually so I run workshops trainings. I was coaching seminars lectures, keynotes and so on. And I was 100% offline before COVID. So I was running my business 100% in person, and I had to switch to 100% online. So that was a massive pivot I needed to make. And because I was so focused on making it work and seeing like the positive sides of it or the optimism as I like to say. It actually opens so many more avenues. So what I noticed is, you know, of course a lot of people were at the beginning they were very afraid of going online and saying you know what's not the same you can't create the same connection or you cannot, you know create this community or, or, you know deliver a message in the same way. And in the beginning I was skeptical too I thought is it really that possible like can you really still transmute that same, you know, quality over virtual like we're doing now. And actually I found and I was pleasantly surprised that you really can you really can I've been in workshops and groups where you know people can get extremely emotional their breakthroughs like energy is everywhere right and whether it's on a screen or in person it is it's all about how you show up. And so I actually found your both yourself and Harold through the beauty of the internet so you know we like to talk a lot about the dark side of social media or internet and so on. But there's so much greatness it also brings for us I was like saying if we were all in this lockdown back in like 1970s I mean my God how difficult would that have been we could just send each other. Notes in bottles over the ocean like it's the connectivity we have today our fingertips is incredible. So that's not to be taken for granted number one. And it's how you use it that matters the most right it's it's your intention with it you know you have the power no one's forcing you to do anything with the technology. So I came across yourself and and Harold as well and he was asking. He was looking for sort of a missing piece in in his in his workshop masterclass that spans over four weeks which is about you know how do we now innovate how do we get this moonshot thinking in big organizations or new entrepreneurs start ups and so on. How do we get it to a point from that big vision that long term vision and bring it to your day to day execution and that's where I came in so my workshop was all about how do you take such a huge moonshot that's let's say 10 years in the future or maybe even 30 years in the future. And how do you now go and convince your stakeholders, your shareholders, you know, your employees, whoever it is that you need that buying from to get the buying the investment the allies, you know the time the energy. How do you do that in a compelling story that makes everyone feel like yeah I see that vision and I see how it matters today. Because that's, you know, some people like it's it's possible for people to be good at vision and have a vision, but often what happens is it becomes this nice statement or a pretty picture on a wall, and it's never really actualized because it's too far away from the day to day it's not tangible enough for people. So in this particular workshop I take people through a specific framework in how you actually basically sell that vision to whoever it is that your audience is, of course, ethically, in the sense of, this is why this matters number one. And this is why it matters now. And this is how not only are we going to benefit as a company today, if we don't do it, this is what we're going to lose. And also on top of that how we consciously contributing to the world through this because what's beautiful to see right now is that large organizations and large companies are starting to recognize their responsibility in the world as well, you know beyond margin, beyond profit, beyond just being number one right making the best product or making, yeah reaching the top of the rank table and I'm fully you know familiar with this coming from many years in the corporate world. It's it's wonderful to see the shift because you know we do have a responsibility anybody who's in a leadership role or is responsible for large functioning organizations or a large group of people. What needs to consider where are they leading those people what kind of vision are they portraying what kind of role model are you being is it for your consumerism right just because you want to sell as much as possible of a particular product. Or is it because the people actually need what it is that you're selling. And also, are we solving any problem with that. You know I always like to say there's only two things in the world that any company sells and there's only two things in the world that any person buys. One a solution to a problem or to a life enhancing experience. So, either one of those two if they're not being addressed, then I would like to invite people to ask themselves, you know, what is their business really about. So, that's in a nutshell kind of what the masterclass is on. Yeah, that's part of well the masterclass is, you know, a little bit over an hour long and some in some cases like mine a little bit longer and then some teasers and, and follow ups and things and so it's just like when you write a book or if you write a song or a poem or do a do a presentation as a speaker if nobody listens to that if nobody sees that or hears that it's not worth anything but the but the other aspect of it is, is there's a lot of time and effort and hours and research and knowledge of years that go into things like that and so in order to just give me the quick pitch or just say okay my masterclass was this in one sentence. But that doesn't give a justice so I really appreciate you going into detail and explaining that for our listeners who some of them have already been taking part of some of the masterclasses and and and see that also know Harold Harold's also been a guest on the show. Another guest on my show was Tomas David Barrett and I spoke to you about him at the beginning. He started the podcast, and he does. He's getting ready to release a book. I believe it's on human beasts and evolutionary book and it is. He's just wonderful he's a professor at Trinity College but he has a show called human beasts and and the reason I bring him up as there's something that he says that it's interesting that ties into to what you have discussed and I want to go a little bit deeper and he says, you know, during this time or this past time of or continuing time of the coven that us human beasts have seen our human zoos we've had a much more microscopic view of our homes or places where we live but now work around a lockdown sometimes 24 seven for multiple days and weeks and we've realized that the human zoo that we've created for ourselves isn't that wonderful it's lacking on abilities to work or to to do certain things on a big focus and the same with the future of work we've had 200 years where we've been working and doing education in a certain way and kind of the industrial revolution and kind of a really outdated way. And there hasn't been a lot of disruption a lot of changes a lot of innovations a lot of modern ways of doing that for something like this or something that's going to catapult us in the future. And a lot of futurists a lot of people speak business. People who speak about, you know, future or forecasting or let's give some predictions of trends or what's what should I be prepared for the future. I hear a lot the words, you know KPIs or incremental planning strategic into incremental planning for the future and they inhale their KPIs their past performance indicator of the past can give you an accurate vision of the future or get you to the future and incremental growth or planning will never get above 10%. And so you'll never hit exponential growth you'll never hit the future of where you need to be with that you'll never get past 10%. And that's where what it is on incremental growth and so with that in mind, what what this past year has maybe shown you you've been doing this for a while you've been speaking about it for a while you've had some changes yourself. What are some things that bubble to the surface what have you seen that Wow, this is emerging this is what we need to do here are some advices that I'm giving people. I'm trying to maybe give us some insights on not only the resilience that you had or some of the new things that you said that these are better tools to use to make sure that I'll that I will reach a desirable future and maybe just free flow your thoughts on that because it's not formulated strictly as as a question, but there's a multiple questions in there as well. There's definitely multiple and then I'm absolutely with you I mean KPIs at the end of the day it's a forecast based off of the past says it's a guess. Okay, it's a best guess at the end of the day and as you said it's only a very marginal thing and and certainly purely KPIs and it's not the answer and you cannot take any basis off of the last year anyway. What I have found or what have I've been getting this question a lot as well as like what is, you know Melissa what is the ultimate skill people need right now in this time right because work is changing education is changing means you know we don't even know what kind of jobs are going to be necessary and in five years from now right. With that in mind, the number one like skill you actually need today and to be honest for the rest of your life is a lifelong learning mindset, meaning, how can you be constantly evolving your mastery in your strengths, because that's what makes you constantly relevant right always say to be average everything is to be great at nothing. People tend to always focus on their weaknesses right to try to get them to average level but that's all you're going to do you're going to be average at everything. Okay everything and great at nothing. And when things like this then happen when you have huge disruption or industries are changing completely you do get people who then are stuck they get into difficult situations. They are making plans for the future based off of the only their experience up to date. So the past, but if you are integrating learning and integrating growth into your daily routine. So, you know, you're the kind of person that doesn't go a day without at least 30 minutes of learning whether it be listening to a podcast reading a book taking a course, you know create writing down your own ideas being creative. And all by the end of the year be a completely transformed person, right, you know a year from today you will have wish you started today. And that's the mistake I found people are making is that you know again this goes from the industrial revolution that you just touched on which is that it's no longer enough for you to, you know, go to university, stop learning up to one point, then get a job, which is your career for the rest of your life, it doesn't exist anymore. You're constantly evolving and upgrading for lack of a better word, I mean evolving on your mastery constantly learning. And now, that doesn't mean you have to be constantly reinventing what you do. It's just increasing the mastery of it right because you see from yourself like you know from research data, you know studies. The information is, is we have overload right now so things are constantly constantly changing and being upgraded so if you are not changing with the times. Yes, you will very quickly become irrelevant so to speak. But all it takes is just assigning that half an hour each day. That's it you know but having it part of your identity, you know that you don't go a day without that working on yourself when you're learning I mean we spend so much time planning business plans, KPIs, you know measurements is, but what about your life plan. How much time do you actually spend on your own life goals who do you want to be a year from now, what are your KPIs in your life in your health, in the contribution you want to make to your family your friends the world. So, I feel like that's, we are starting to go in that direction because 2020 as you said you know this zoo that people were sort of locked in in their homes. It kind of forced everyone to go within a bit and start to kind of address oh okay. Maybe the way I've been living until now isn't the best way for me isn't the healthiest way of life maybe there is more to life than the way we've been living until now and that's why I'm saying I've seen it as a very good way because of a great thing of course the disruption and the chaos may look very negative on the surface but it's really revealing to us a much brighter future if we choose to go down that path more consciously. Absolutely love that and so true you know there's this thing that I mentioned you've probably heard me say it before it's about livability and really our work life and our home life or personal life have been kind of going in separate directions for many many years whether you know in many situations you know and they're kind of pulling and fighting against each other they're not very livable lifestyles either way whether you're just 100% in the work world or 100% in the life world where you're just you know a home and they're pulling against each other and really we need to find a livability of how can we work from home if we need to how can we you know find that work life balance and that separation or a way to do it where it's a lifestyle. There's great books out there from from also mutual friends of Harold and I Tim Labor Reft he wrote a book The Business Romantic, and as part of the Romantic Society, then there's Frederick la Lou reinventing organizations are good to great and and there's a lot of work rules from last little buck and on and on there's just tons of books like this that that take work and this humans of new work and put it into more of a livability how can you have a romance with your colleagues how can you have a romance with what you do, and it's what I hear what I hear out of what you say it's it's a mastery of those things that of your talents not of your weaknesses or those things that you're not very good at because even if you focus all your time as you set it so eloquently, you're only going to be mediocre just average. You know, you should be focusing on your, your what you're good at and honing those skills and those talents and and and that's different for each and every one of us. Those people in 2020 who really kind of lost hope who've gotten depression who've, you know, figure out, you know, I can't. I can't get on my laptop from my bed or not wearing pants and sweats every day to work from home or you know, I can't handle dealing with my kids you know that they need three computers and now I'm a teacher plus after work and there's all these crazy things that are emerging during this week but if you are losing hope I want to let you know that that you're not doing enough activism advocacy and live is an act of hope a sheer act of hope. Hope is a discipline it's a discipline of life of interacting with other beings with with environment and nature, making sure that our health and our, our, our lifestyles the way we live our human zoos and the way we we design our life are such that we have the beautiful. We call it a discipline and some people like oh that sounds hard I've got a discipline all that's, but discipline is freedom. It's. Oh, I love that. You're so free you have more time you have more knowledge you have more resources more it's such a freeing thing there's nothing restrictive or like, like, you know, but the punch of clock for someone or to be working for someone at a job that you're miserable at. For me as as more misery and a different type of negative discipline where you're miserable. Just job dissatisfaction then having some discipline just structure the life you the life that you want to live and the work life that you want to live. And here's the great things we can do this all, because we, we are here to create the future we want we are here we get a wonderful ability to create that desirable future there's it's not up to anybody else it's up to us. And so that's just a beautiful gift and talent that we all have and so if we realize some of the wisdoms that you just mentioned. I think we're really come out ahead of the game. I would love to just touch on a bit of what you are saying that about lifestyle that I really want to touch into as you just said and about the self discipline everything. It's so funny. You mentioned that this is some of my core teachings as well in terms of helping people navigate through, you know, yeah those difficult emotions right like you said people are going into depression people are going into anxiety fear and so on. And what I've found is that as you say like I like so you call it discipline and as you said people sometimes hear that word and they're like oh that sounds so you know. Yeah disciplinary when they think of discipline they think like disciplining a child but self discipline truly is freedom. How I like to structure or talk about it when I when I teach people on it is that you know it's all about the habits and the routine you create and but and I say like routine is sexy. You hear the word routine and they're like oh that's so boring to know routine is everything and you like you just said you get to create it. So if you feel like your life is chaos at home you've got to be a teacher you got to do this you got to work from your bed or whatever. It's your space, you have the power to recreate it. So why don't you make set yourself up for success, you know, your environment matters a lot, a lot, you know clutter in your home is clutter in your brain. So that declutter out of the old in with the new that expression exists for a reason because again, old energies if you hold on to things there's too much stuff around you, it really actually can cause like mental blocks for you. So declutter there is like a healing process in that especially people struggling with things like depression depression is focusing too much on the past. So anxiety is when you're too much in the future as in what if scenarios and spiraling out of control, the brain is a tool right brain is a wonderful tool. It can be your best friend or it can be your worst enemy so you've got to train it like a muscle and the more you can train it in the sense of okay how do I use it to my best advantage, aka the habits that I incorporate like which means you are kind of a person are you I'm the kind of person you know that will not go a day without making sure I go for a walk, getting fresh air, making sure I make my own meals, eating healthy, making sure I don't go a day without learning, making sure that if I'm going to do my work that it's creative that it's a high flow state. So it's not just sitting at a laptop for no reason checking emails for nine hours. When you literally intentionally schedule that in a what I call sexy routine so literally block it out in your calendar. It just starts to become habit for you, because the thing is if you don't do that, what will happen, life will just happen and everything will just random that's why you feel out of control, because everybody else will then you know put what their intentions on you you know they'll fill your calendar with meetings or you know your whatever it is that your job is you're just going to be reacting to the environment to your calls to your emails to your family and so on. So if you don't create the structure. Yes, you are going to experience like loss of control and so on so when I'm really an advocate of it's just switching from a basically a victim mentality to I'm a victim of circumstance to know I'm an empowered leader of my own life and I choose how my day is going to pan out. What I was like to say is you know when you wake up in the morning just ask yourself, who is it I want to be today, how do I want to show up in the world. How often do people actually set an intention when they get up in the morning, you know they just get up and it goes straight to autopilot get up rush start the day know when you start the day with intention. It's much more likely to live the day with intention so I just wanted to add that. No that's so important I'm glad you added that that's great. So now when I mean we've got right off the bat we've dived into a lot of depth and it tells a lot about you and about the things that we're thinking about and how we're really wanting to create these beautiful futures these desirable futures and what are the steps now to get there. With all this, this craziness with experience, not only that the human suffering and environmental problems and this this you know this COVID last year. You, you've seen and learned we both learned a lot of lessons over the time, but there is this overwhelming global feeling all around the world of the civil unrest this unease you know whether it's black lives matters whether it's the election in the United States whether it's what's going on in Belarus whether it's the the cyclones that hit just before Christmas and Fiji Tonga and Samoa and on and on and probably leaving many other countries still playing out the Brexit and and the evolution of all those crazy things and so we're filling this this unease this unrest with our current civilization frameworks or models are our systems that out there that are kind of supposed to give us a guide to the ongoing of direction of of where we're going and the reason I bring that kind of bring up this unrest or unease do you I can hear in your accent I know you speak a little German you probably speak another language you're you're living are you living in Germany or Europe somewhere. Yeah, I live in Austria in Salzburg. Wonderful. Beautiful. And I'm in Hamburg. And so my question is to you. Do you feel like you are a global citizen and how would you feel about the removal of all borders walls limitations of humanity. And your view. What is your understanding of this and what kind of benefits could this bring towards the world if we had something like this. Wow, what a question mark. Yeah, I love that so I definitely class myself as a global citizen or a citizen of the world I always have so you know born in Bosnia grew up my whole life in England living in Austria since nine years so when someone asks me where am I from I honestly don't even know how to answer and I just want to say I'm from the planet. You know, things are complex right and when we go into big systems thinking of course that it's not as easy as black and white when we're dealing with big societal structures of course there are integral things we need to consider. But overall, my feeling is that yes you know you know the borders we have in place are they're all human designed borders right so the earth in itself is one right and I. I think everything all structure that we have or anything that we implement in terms of societal structures. The question we need to ask more is does it serve us or does it not serve us. So I don't think it's so much a question of completely removing any form of structure and so on or boundaries, you know boundaries can also be of course healthy in life in general boundaries right respect and things like this. If we especially also look at it from the humans psychology evolution perspective but you know where doesn't serve us is where we get to places like you know this conflict and me against you ask against them. Rather than looking at things of you know we are one species at the end of the day and on top of that we share this planet with with a variety of other species and so on. And this planet is home so I think from that perspective as you say. I think it's a disservice to us and all of humanity when people are too focused in a patriotic sense. So what I mean by that is it's very very singular focused and very much about. So generally speaking or anthropologically speaking you know we are social animals and we require belonging to a group. Now there are levels to that belonging so you know we have individualistic culture which is very prominent in the US for example it's about individual in UK the same. It's about individual success becoming the top of the success ladder becoming the number one and that kind of thing. You have other cultures which you can see in other areas of the world or in let's say family you know family that's a that's a unit of of communal structure then you see that also with patriotism and you also see that with religion you know you see that in many different forms. But even on that level even though it's people together it's together as a group versus another group. So again it's it's still divide divisive. What's non divisive is that, hey, you know you can have this belief and I have this belief but we can still coexist, and we can still create, you know, a world where we all can live in because you know first of all who anyway wants a world where everyone is the same. Then we're not human beings right then we're all just living here as robots. And I think that we've come to a point where things are a bit too sensitized in the sense of, you know if I disagree with you that immediately means it's an attack or we've got to have an argument. You know, it's shocking how much in terms of human communication and that's another thing that I'm heavily focused on when it comes to my trainings human behavior and communication. You know we are raising a new generation that really struggle to create genuine relationship and and and communication with other human beings with. They're afraid to have, you know, discussions where they might have conflict arise right, and it's not about never having conflict or disagreeing views because again this is also where innovation comes from this where creativity comes from this is where all the ideas can come together so it's a big question but I'm like giving you some of my insights to that and I just feel that at the moment I do believe we are shifting, not everywhere because again by countries you can see there are different levels of evolution in the human psyche. But the more you understand that the more you can meet people at the level they're at, and therefore you can help, you know, raise their growth from that level that's what's important. What I find is that usually people if they're trying to put out a message let's say a leader that's got a vision, they'll only reach certain people why is it that sometimes you hear some one person say something and it goes over your head. And then you hear maybe a year later that same thing from someone else and it like changes your life, because they met you at your level and the way they communicated it to you really spoke with you. So that's why I'm such an advocate of, you know, everyone can learn from everybody and we all have that ability to to influence and impact people in life. So there's no one, you know, answer there's no one leader for the whole world. It's how do we all collaboratively use our strengths and master them right together to create that that better future and and from my side I genuinely believe we are going towards that direction. And you will always get a bit of pushback like that's just normal you're going to see that but when you see that when you see as much of that sort of conflict we're getting now that actually usually means because real change is happening. So on the other side it's I think a very positive thing. I believe that there are so many levels there that we could go even deeper. There's this balance you know that innovation occurs also when there's you know disagreements but that there's this balance. But when the balance is too too much on one side and there's no balance that's when we face this collapse this civilization collapse or destruction or, or, or, it fails outright, but when there's that given take working kind of in harmony balance you know where we have disagreements and we have say well I'm not 100% in agreement, but we keep it in that that kind of and Yang's not the right right way to phrase it but into in a form of a balance for we're also growing we're also learning we're also evolving we're also learning how more diplomacy how to interact with each other, and this global citizenry really has far reaching multifaceted areas so like species are global citizens you know they fly or walk across borders all the time. Food is as a global citizen that travels all around the world sometimes a matter of fact, the amount of food that it takes to feed the United Kingdom is four times the size of the United Kingdom, and it's not all in the United Kingdom because there is no four times the United Kingdom so that's spread out throughout the world, and it's not just them it's many other countries and, and, and things like that. And then the coven and air quality and air pollution and ocean. Current and precipitation all these other things those are all global citizens that we're all breathing the same air we're all drinking the same water we're all eventually there is no place on this earth that we can hide from each other. And especially from human suffering and environmental problems, there is no place to hide and so, whether we want to be a global citizen or not, we are, because there, there are things that are countries and nations and that are occurring that are affecting us in other parts of the world that we don't even live in the United Kingdom we don't even live in Brazil and are affected by the burning Amazon, things like that. And so that's kind of why I wanted to get your cake and you're feeling on on global citizenry. I would love to add to that like because I think. And everything is perspective right so everyone has these different levels of perspective, even science is a process right science is not, you know, one time fact you know there was a time that doctors didn't realize that washing your hands when you know between deliveries of babies would save, you know the mother from not dying so science is a process and the same thing goes as we grow as we evolve so will our ideas and our concepts and so on. And what I found or from my experiences we talk about things like you said, these really big world topics global citizen topics. People often give me sort of the pushback of, but I'm just one person like what is my, what is, you know, what I do really matter, you know, I'm not the president I'm not this. And let me tell you I really, I totally disagree with that concept because I think if every single individual looks at themselves as a role model in terms of how they want to see the world is how they should show up in the world. If everybody did that, we would already see that change is an amazing quote from Steve Jobs which is the those who are crazy enough to think they can change the world or the ones that do. I actually see it a bit different which is that those who are conscious enough to know that anybody can change the world any individual whether it's a five year old in Africa or a 30 year old in in you know New York. They change the world. Any single human being can change the world. You know your circle of influence whether it be two people or 2000 people or two million people. You can change your circle of influence again we are social beings nobody is like you said hiding somewhere in a corner living by themselves. You are influencing everyone around you and you are being influenced by everyone around you. So, definitely everybody has has that impact and can make that impact. So, it all starts with yourself and for me that's the most empowering thing you can hear because again you're not a victim to your environment you can create it and contribute to the environment that you want to live in. It's really true you know and I there's many examples besides Steve Jobs and about that that just try. If you think you're too small to do anything or to make an impact just try sleeping in a room with one mosquito, you know, and we've heard that before. It doesn't really matter and then another thing that you said that I wanted to kind of her owner put emphasis on is, and it's a German thing but but it really translates universally is we have to pick people up at every level where we have to pick people up at the level of their understanding of their perspective of the world, whether their age whether their gender, whoever they are we have to pick them up with their there and that situation where they're at and bring them to a level of empowerment of an enlightenment of showing them their strengths and showing them a different view of the world and perspective. And I really, I really think that you know that's something that you said that is absolutely so true because there is no one pool or method or solution or silver bullet for all. There are thousands multiples hundreds of thousands of solutions and they're all different and they're all unique and they can usually take us to the same path or move us in the right direction and so I like how you how you mentioned that I just wanted to put some emphasis on that that in German if the dimension da poland voci sin and pick people up there where they're at and and instead of always expecting them to, you know, to make it to where you are or that you're on a different level. Another perspective of that as well kind of ties to the COVID but to many other factors as well. There's these these circles of fear and circles of fear that are all legitimate you know someone might have fear of wearing a mask because they are afraid that they're going to be controlled by the government or that they're being forced to do something and that the government's controlling them and and it's all a conspiracy theory. And that's legitimate fear, but then there's also the fear of the the elderly that are wearing a mask because they're truly or someone at high risk are truly worried about dying whether it's going to happen or not so their fear is legit and then there's the fear of the business owner that we've dealt with a lot that you know we what about our business how we're going to continue making money and paying our employees how we're going to support our workers at home now with working from home or are we going to have to shut down our shops because we're a barber salon or a restaurant or whatever it is that that might not be an essential service and all of those fears and whether they tie to conspiracy theories they all have emerging overlap in the middle where it all ties to the big thing they're all legitimate fears and not one of them is more so than the other. We just have to understand and pick those people up where they're at and address their fears and say no, we understand. Let's not go to extreme or to conspiracy theory that that fear is legitimate. Let's address that and see how true that is and and come to the truth which is more somewhere in the middle of whatever fear it is no matter what group we're in of what's going on just in relation to the COVID and so our world as you can tell and how all of my shows usually go as very high to systems thinking complexity science and very complex because we're addressing not only evolution and global citizenry in the future and things like that but we're really talking about these big universal principles these things of life that that one day or another we all have to somehow deal with or address in our life to get ahead or to create that future where we want to be and that brings me to my hardest question that I have for you today. And it's really the burning question and it's the burning question is WTF and it's no it's not the swear word although we've all been asking ourselves this for a long time for since 2020 pulling out our hair but it's what's the future and so with with what you've seen and what you've experienced and you tell me for yourself. What's the future and maybe you have some insights of what where we need to be in the future what the global plan is for the future. So much in the market. Firstly, I totally agree with all the fears being valid you know there is no bigger fear than another you know when you feel fear it's very real for you so we should never deny anybody's experience of it. Biologically speaking fear is fair and it's real you know it is reactive it is instinct and fear though is ultimately the biggest disease we can have in the world and my only thing I want to say on that is that when we do make decisions right also when you say on the WTF. If we make decisions from a place of fear they're not going to be good decisions okay because they are based on survival right they're going to be based on pure survival instinct and they're going to be coming from our primitive brain which is not always our most conscious part of our brain right so first and foremost I think you know we've had almost a year of this now so yes has there been some mistakes in terms of the decisions that were made in how they handle things whether it be. Opening and closing and lockdowns or masks or what all those things. Yes there have been mistakes and there's also been learnings what I would like to see and what I'm also trying to be a part of in terms of where is it going is that I do not believe we can continue doing it the same way, which seems to be still the case. I believe clearly that's not working, we can see that it's there's still a lot of chaos going on in terms of, as you said, businesses failing you know people are getting other health concerns outside of COVID right. We're going to have more long term outcomes in terms of mental health illnesses and so on right from this whole experience. Even on top of that a virus is a virus it mutates it will always be there, so there'll be no elimination of a virus right. So, without going too deep into that whole thing the main thing is that I don't want people to just be waiting for an answer in terms of you know the vaccine is the golden bullet and everything's going to go back to the way it was. It's not right the vaccine is one solution. Nothing is going to go back to the way it was we are moving forward with a new way of living a new way of working and so on. Where I'm wanting to see it go and where I'm also contributing to see it go as I said is the evolution of how we work and how we educate. Also as you said big systems big topics it also comes down to health. I think everybody has had a wake up call in terms of their own health and I think people need to be honest with themselves. First, you know the majority of the people who have actually passed, I mean 90 we're going into the 96 97% of people who have lost their lives from this virus had a minimum of two and a half pre existing conditions. And what it tells you is beyond the situation going on in the world, we have other pandemics going on such as, you know, diabetes, you know, heart disease, you know, people with addictions like this has already existed. It's now just been brought to the surface and I think it's a great opportunity for us to actually address that now right we can see that that's an underlying problem. How do we address and again for me it really education for the masses as you know, ignorance is always going to lead to making the same mistakes or it's going to lead right so as you said we meet people where they are it's not about blaming people it's not about making people feel, you know, either you're with us or you're not or singling people out. I genuinely believe that education and like a whole is the answer just on completely several variety of different levels and different ways for different people. The information is out there, the experts are out there, we have this like we have this at our fingertips you just need to be willing, you need to be open minded to the possibility that there is another healthier way to live whether it be in your actual health whether it be in the way that you create wealth. Okay, the way in which we work is changing as in one paycheck from one company. We're not going to get like this anymore. I think we're going to have multiple streams of income in different ways and I believe we're going into a more service economy oriented thing meaning that you know, community as in, if we all collaborate and come together, we're paying each other in a in that kind of way right rather than it's all about, again, one particular product or service against another right. I feel that entire framework shifting that's what I would love to see much more of a service economy in terms of everyone growing and becoming you know the best version of themselves, having that mastery in whatever their field is which also by the way makes you more fulfilled in life, because you're doing what you love, rather than just working for a paycheck right. Yeah, and you're bringing that to the world as well so I see it going that way to start. I'm contributing it to going that way I'm adamant that that's, you know, a better way to go in terms of you know, we're not in the industrial revolution anymore we're out of that time it's the time to shift that let's be creative in terms of what work is, how we collaborate, you know we can collaborate now look how we are speaking over the over this and how we're able to collaborate. I see a lot more of that in the future. And so a lot more of that integral lifestyle that you were talking about as well. I see a lot of that. You know the fact that you can focus on your work for a couple of hours and then go and have a beautiful lunch or walk down the beach with your family like, and have that integrated rather than you know everything's compartmentalized. I always remember an old saying in corporations which was you know you leave your personal life at home when you come to the office as if we can do that right as if you have a switch in your brain that you switch off or whatever but that's not the case we are holistic beings, therefore holistic lifestyle. And so let's say to end on that I'd say we're moving more towards that holistic lifestyle where we integrate health wealth relationships into a much more integral way of living and I truly believe that's the way forward I truly believe we're going to see that in our lifetime. And I'm working my part of my purpose is to contribute towards that same. That's what I would say to that. I love that. So I'm going to be a little bit even harder I'm going to drill down somewhere and see. So do you know I'm not going to make it too easy for you come on. Do you believe that there is one plan, some kind of a earth shot or a climate shot or a moonshot or some kind of plan that's out there that's going to get us to this better, more resilient, more desirable future. Do you think there's something like that that's already out there. I don't think there is one, I do think there is multiple and I think that there needs to be multiple because again, there's no one for you and we will never get there like that. And whilst everyone's thinking is still, if people still think that there is the one answer the one person that's going to tell everyone, then we will always run into problems right, but let's say there is that one idea, or the one concept. But it's communicated and it's delivered in a thousand different ways. Absolutely. Absolutely that's possible. What that looks like, I think is still being created right now. I do heavily believe that as I said like that we go more towards, it's ultimately more conscious living so how do we become more you know in tune with nature in tune with the planet, and in tune with ourselves, because you know if you do, yeah if we go deeper on that at the end of the day, people have not really been understanding themselves or living from within. They've been very focused on external environment, external gratification that's also why we have so much depression and so on in the world because people don't really know who they are anymore. That's why you get midlife crisis, where people hit a wall and they're like, oh my God, who am I, because they've been wearing a mask for so long because they've just been going, going through life ticking the boxes and they think they need to tick. So that's for me the big questions which is that if those are supposed to be the way people live then why is no one happy, right. So that's why asking the right questions as well is ultimately going to lead us to those answers sometimes I think it's the question the quality of the questions that we're asking. So for me the question should be things like yeah what is quite a quite high quality life, what it doesn't mean to live as a global citizen, what does it mean to be self actualize because for me, your own self actualization. Right, is the biggest gift or the biggest contribution that you can make to the world as well as yourself. If every individual can make that impact. So I feel like if everybody just works on being the best version of themselves that can only lead to a brighter future. I truly believe it's a gift to be here on this earth that's from a science perspective from an astronomers perspective. Neil Tyson to grassy Carl Sagan and many other grace. It's really trillions of trillions of great dance chance is opportunities that even allowed us to come to this earth. Just me as an individual just you as an individual that the likelihood is. It's a lot more unlikely that you wouldn't be be born than it is you're born to have that great honor to come here and experienced that as, is something amazing. I have to, I'm not gonna disagree with you, but I believe that there are several moon shots, earth shots, plans out there. Some have emerged during the COVID and some were kind of coming before the new Green Deal, donut economics, the sustainable development goals, the Paris agenda and really, the wonderful thing is, is a lot of people don't know about the sustainable development goals, but the sustainable development goals came before the Paris agreement, before the 2030 Paris agreement in 2015 at COP 21, and the 17 sustainable development goals were adopted September 24th, 2015, before the Paris agreement. And it is the world's first ever global moon shot. It's a historical precedent. It's a 193 countries come together for the first time ever. And the great thing which you touched upon, it's not one silver or magic bullet. It's not one goal, 17 goals with hundreds of targets and indicators and it's very complex. It's very indigenous, it's very local and it can be different. The 17 SDGs can be different in Germany than they are in Africa. But what they do is they create a sustainable infrastructure. It's not perfect, it's not the best plan, but what it does is it builds us a little resilience, a little sustainable infrastructure to then spring board off into even more resilience and even to better futures. And if you know anything about diplomacy or politics, it's unbelievable that 193 countries came together and agreed upon a roadmap for the future and not enough people know about it. I mean, let alone two countries deciding where they're gonna go eat lunch or decide on just one simple thing like a pipeline or some kind of a new project that they're doing that's cross-border. I mean, look at Brexit, they can't even figure that out. How long are we dealing with that? It's like four years. Yeah, so I mean, we can't even figure out in 2000 we couldn't figure out the dimple chads for the election of Al Gore and George Bush. And this year we couldn't, or last year and moving into this year, it took how many weeks to figure out who won the election because of, just because of mail and other craziness. And so- That's a great point, Mark, you're right. And then you're right, not enough people know about them. In fact, I was talking about yesterday. I was running a training yesterday and I mentioned the Bible sustainability goal then it is shocking how little people do know about them. And you're right, they are certainly a framework and all they are goals and visions that took a lot of people, a lot of effort, a lot of work to come to this agreement of and they're certainly wonder what's great about that is again, human beings do need that structure. They need guidance and they need, we make sense of the world through stories, right? So when you have these 17 goals and we have the images and you know exactly what sort of buckets or topics they are, I think that in itself is immense in terms of guidance. So I do totally agree with you there. It just becomes about like, basically telling the story in a variety of different ways to meet- Well, it goes back to what we were saying. We need to pick up each individual- Exactly. Or they're at and tell them the story and help them on that journey because some people, I mean, if you're in India, if you're in Africa, if you're in certain parts of Asia and you're in a developing country, you're in poverty, you're not gonna know what the sustainable development goals are, but there's other indigenous principles and things that are very similar. It's kind of like the golden rule, treat people on planet, how you would like to be treated some basic infrastructural or patriarchal or nomadic type of indigenous wisdoms that we can use that can be perfectly aligned and applied to those goals in a different level. But that story, that narrative, that picking people up where they're at to even help them understand on why, it's a different form of a discipline that you can apply into your life as you're constructing your lifestyle that then just makes life better, but it also makes it for the rest of the planet, your community and whatever. And so I really like that. And I always have to tease because you know I'm an advocate for the SDGs and the UN and that and I deal with that. And so I really want people to know. Sure. I have a question for you on that one. Just before I ask it, like what can help people a lot is I want you to, if you're ever hitting that kind of brick wall with another person, whether it be in business, a business meeting or with your partner or with a family member or with a friend or a stranger or whatever, is always remember that everybody is doing the best they can at the level of consciousness they're currently at. When you can have the compassion for someone to see that just because they're not seeing things the way you are, that is the way that they see the world based off of their life experience, based off of what they know until now based off of the level of their education and their consciousness at that moment in time. So if you can remove that, remove so much judgment and invite so much compassion, which will just at least open your mind more to the ability of more collaboration is all, I just wanted to add there. But a question to you on how would you like to see people or how would you like, is there a way that people can advocate more of these 17 sustainability goals? How would you like to see that being advocated in the world more today? Now we're six years into it. So they came out in 2015, we're six years into it. And really they were presented to us wrong. A lot of people don't even know that they exist. A lot of people don't know what they are. And so that's kind of a presentation problem. And I have to apologize for that. But there, I wrote for the United Nations the Sustainable Development Goal Manifesto because I wanted people to envision what it would feel like to stand in December 2030, to stand there and to live in a world that had achieved and reached all those sustainable development goals. And what would that feel like? And what, to try to build a vision of that. And so I wrote this manifesto and I can read it to you now if you don't mind. But I'd like all our listeners to maybe close their eyes or to kind of envision what it would feel like. But, and then when I'm done, just kind of feel a little bit to see what that's like. Imagine a world where there is no poverty and zero hunger. We have good health and wellbeing, quality education and full gender equality everywhere. There is clean water and sanitation for everyone. Affordable and clean energy has created decent work and sustainable economic growth. Our prosperity is fueled by investment in resilient industry, innovation and infrastructure. And that has reduced inequalities. We live in sustainable cities and communities and responsible consumption and production has healed our planet. Climate action has stopped and reversed the warming of our planet and we have flourishing life below water and abundant diverse life on land. We enjoy peace and justice through strong institutions and have built long-term partnerships for the goals. I don't know about you, but for me, that's a future I wanna live in. That's, you know, it's not dystopian. It's one where a lot of the things about global citizenry, about us working together, having better infrastructure. Sustainable development is very confusing for a lot of people. Development is something that can be an education in your personal life, but development is also something that occurs in commercial developments and residential developments and city developments. It's construction. It's the way we build our communities, our cities, our societies. And to tag on the word sustainability or sustainable development in front of that is really important because what that means is it means a community, a city, personal resilience that can sustain itself over time. That's gonna be around for future generations. That's gonna have the everything that it needs, the basic needs in order to survive and to flourish differently. There's the high carbon or business as usual scenario which is teetering on collapse and a lot of dystopia and a lot of fighting and issues. And then there's this different one where if we do things just a little bit different that the outcome is so much more beautiful. And so, you know, that for me is really my hope and vision that people would get that and realize that it's a historical precedence. The only time before that in all of human history that we had an event like that was when we sent people to the moon and that was one nation and a few thousand actors and players. And it was also a historical moment 51 years ago now, I think it is, yeah. And that we accomplished that feat. But this is 193 plus countries coming together for historical precedence. And it's just for me, it's a beautiful thing to create this different future. And it really ties in nicely too. And I didn't mean to push or be anything. I kind of want to know if we have a plan, if we're thinking about the future and we have a discipline or a goal towards it, then we're more likely to reach that goal. And we're- I think we're in it, yes. I think we're toting alignment there anyway. Because when you use the word sustainability that's ultimately a similar concept when I talk about conscious growth, right? What do I mean by conscious? I also mean with sustainability in mind, right? With more than just yourself in mind, with considering your impact and so on. So we're in alignment there. And maybe a good question even to the listeners is when they hear that manifesto, thank you so much for sharing. I love that. First time I heard it. When they hear that manifesto, how like maybe listen back to it, read it out to yourself and see where can you make a contribution there? Again, it does not have to be all of it. People tend to look at the big goal and they get scared away from it, saying what difference can I make? Everyone can make a difference. Whether it's in your industry, your work, or just the way in which you interact with people and so on. As I said, work is changing anyway. Industries are changing anyway. So here's your chance, you know, contribute to this. Contribute to this in a way that will create those sustainable, more conscious futures. So I think it's a nice thing for people to think about. We are in a moment of history, as you said, I agree. We are making history right now. Nothing changed in the last 200 years as said for work and education, it's changing now. So you guys are all in the moment of history right now. So, you know, how do you want to be remembered? This is the question. I love that. I love that. That is so perfect. And it ties up to my last few questions that I have for you. And it's really all 17 sustainable development goals are all tied to food. They're tied to the basic needs of humanity. A lot of people ask, are they for countries? Are they for corporations? Are they for cities? Who are they for? They're actually very similar to Maslow's hierarchy and needs. They're the basic principles of physiological needs and security needs of humanity. So they're all tied to our basic needs. And so their goals for us to get us into a better place because we're eating the finite resources on our planet. But the question I really have for you is similar to the burning question, but it's a little bit more expansive for what you do, the missions, and the things that you're working on. What does a world that works for everyone look like for you? A world that works for everyone, meaning it tends to all of their needs in Maslow's hierarchy? That's kind of what? However you see that. So I mean, what's the future? But what does a world that works for everyone, whether it's black, white, Muslim, Catholic, Chinese, American, German, every human being, what does a world that works for everyone even look like or will look like for you? I mean, the first thing that definitely comes into my head is equal opportunity in itself. Equal opportunity. What does that mean? It means that often, especially let's say in the Western world as we are both from, it can be very, very easy to take advantage of what we've been born into and not realize that we could have been born in a place in a country where we have such limitations. And again, that creates that divide. Like even if we talk about immigration or refugees and so on, I've seen people get really riled up, like how dare they enter our country and so on. And I think to myself, as you said, that we have a 400 trillion chance of being born, you could have been born in that country just because you were born on this side of that barrier that was made. Who says you get to judge someone that way just based off of a barrier we created on the planet? So again, this is the Earth citizen thinking as you were mentioning earlier. So to me, that everybody has equal opportunity. I believe the only limitations we have is our own limitations we make for ourselves, which comes from our mind. So if we have a foundation for every human being on the planet, which ultimately, yes, is Maslow's hierarchy, as in we make sure everybody has shelter, has food, and has safety, because that's survival, right? So the moment your survival is covered, you're no longer making decisions from survival. You can make more conscious decisions or sustainable decisions. You call them, I call them conscious decisions. So therefore, that person is going to much more likely get to the top of that pyramid, their self-actualization, because they're not worried about survival, right? It's not fair to say, you know, third world countries have like less developed people. They have less opportunity to self-actualize because they're so focused on fundamental survival, which we take for granted, for example, if we're born in a Western world, right? So really for me, yeah, that would be the basis of the answer is that foundation of that pyramid is covered because then everybody is given that equal opportunity through education, through knowledge, through community, through whatever, right? Through everything that we do have access to and everybody can have access to this, and I believe should, to then self-actualize, again, being the best version of themselves. And I say people cannot be the best version of themselves if they are fighting for survival. It's just that's biology. Of course, you're gonna act in ways that's to survive, right, to fight, to fight, et cetera. So for me, a world that's covering that foundation for everyone, therefore allowing then the opportunity for education and self-actualization, we will naturally, the natural result of that is that we will benefit as a planet because no longer will there be people in conflict because they are trying to survive or because it's short-term thinking, then everyone's gonna be more long-term thinking, then everyone will care more about where are we gonna be in a thousand years versus where am I gonna be in one year because I don't have any food? You see where I'm coming from. So I guess that would be my answer, yeah. I love it. Now I have three last questions for you and they're kind of selfish questions. They're for my listeners. They're sustainable takeaways for them. If you could depart one message to my listeners, a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life, what would it be, your message? A sustainable message, the power. So everything that I live and do daily and the identity that I put on is that we literally create our own reality and the fact that you are the leader of your life. So for me, there's nothing more empowering than knowing that, wait for it, there is no meaning to life other than the meaning that you give it. In my opinion, that's the most empowering thing you can ever hear because it means that you get to choose, right? Means you, when you realize consciously or unconsciously, we can create that exact future you're talking about. There's no, it's not possible, it's just a dream. We can create it. We just need to choose to be the person that gets up every morning and works towards that sustainable future versus gets up with a victim mindset and goes on autopilot. It's literally a shift in framework of thinking and identity. That's my message to your listeners today. I hope that they are just open to the idea that they create their own world, they create their own meaning and they do have every power and every possibility to create the change they wanna see in the world. That is beautiful and it's absolutely so true. A lot of people are waiting for the future to be delivered to them by someone else, a government or religious leader or culture or place. And it's just, it'll be disappointing because a lot of our leaders, a lot of our government structures, they've been failing us and we've been, a lot of us have been waiting for hope and then we get disappointed. So it's so true that you have the power to change that. So my second question is, what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the beginning or the start? So from the start, we normally, well, let's say with youth in general, right? When you're starting out in your career and everything, you see that spark, right? People have this spark, they have that belief, they have that vision. And what I find, which happened with myself as well as I see it with many others as they age or as they get more experience, funnily enough, that spark deteriorates and it becomes more of this, now we're just in a process. So especially if you look at people going into career and also the way organizations are run in general, we're way too focused on processes and efficiencies that loses and therefore gets rid of all creativity and innovation. So what I wish I had known back then is that, you know, the focus should, you should still always allow that space for that creativity, for making a mistake, for taking a risk, never losing the dream. I luckily I didn't, right? I took the, I continued and continued to be an advocate, but what I see often is that it's a very strong environment and belief system that can very easily take you off track in your life for a very long period of time for some people for the rest of their lives. So that's what I wish I knew is that, you know, whatever it is that you have is that big dream which usually people have when they're younger and then along the way it gets kind of, you know, laughed out or people say you can't go for that whatever, do continue to go for that. Cause that's, you know, that's your calling, that's what you're here to do and, you know, you can do it. You just, your ability to execute it is what you got to focus on. So that's what I wish I knew. So in the show notes in the description on the podcast, on the YouTube video, we'll put a link of your website and any of your socials and places so people can go out and reach out to you and see what you do and kind of follow you. But also to ask you personally and maybe get involved in some of your coaching and speaking and things that you do. But that was really all the questions I have for you. I wanted to ask, is there anything that you did not get to say or that you would like to depart in some final words of wisdom or anything that you would like to say that you might have not gotten to say during our conversation? Well, it's been a pleasure talking with you, Mark. Thank you for having me. And I think we covered a lot of things and we could talk about many other things but what I think I just wanna finish with is that, and I've lost it now. I had it in my head and it's gone. What I wanted to finish with is truly this message of a message of the optimism, right? It's very much our human nature to go into the negative, right? Actually, we focus on pain and negativity 10 times more than we do on pleasure and positivity. So it's very natural and I want people to not beat themselves up over that. It is human nature. Optimism is a muscle, you know? Positivity is a muscle, but it is worth it. Not only does it increase your quality of life but it will also increase the way in which you affect your own life, others and your own future. Remember, every day you're consciously creating, you're now and your future. So my message is just, I want to hand in on when you wake up every morning, decide who do I want to be today? What do I want to, how do I want to be remembered instead of going straight into the autopilot? Because I know how easy it is for people to do that and then wake up at the end of their life. There's a book on this actually, The Top Regrets of the Dying, and that's always stuck with me, is that the number one regret by far of the dying is, I wish I'd lived a life that was true to me, not that of one that others expected of me. So again, self-actualization, living your true self, being your best self. So for me, it's like, if it's not, if you're not going to live your best life, is it worth it, right? So that's what I want to impart on, focus on your self-actualization, your self-growth and the contribution you want to make to the world that in turn will give you the life fulfillment you're looking for. Thank you so much for being on the show and I hope we can follow up again very soon and take an even deeper dive. I know we could speak for hours, there's so much that we could discuss, but I really liked it and it was great. Thank you so much Melissa, it's been wonderful.