 You're watching this clip. This is mapping fault lines on Tuesday US President Joe Biden and Russian President Vladimir Putin had a two hour long call to discuss the escalating tensions on the border between Russia and Ukraine in the in the Donbas region. And last week on the show, we had talked about the historic reasons behind these escalating tensions. And today we look at the call and the impact it could have on the future of the region. We are joined by Praveen Bukhaya. So Praveen, can you tell us about this call? You know, Russia has been saying that it will protect the Donbas region if U.S. sends in NATO troops and U.S. has not yet made any promises that it will not expand into the region. So this is the impact that the two countries were at. Did this phone call change anything? Was there any de-escalations of this point? You know, a summit discussion, the way we have been used to seeing it, means there is preparatory discussions that take place, preparations which leads to a near understanding, leaving only a few issues out and then it is trashed out during the summit. That means the preliminary groundwork is done before a summit meeting is called. Now we are having summit meetings whose purpose seems to be to have a summit meeting. So we don't understand whether there was any preparation, was it grandstanding or was it responding to Putin's statements that there are some red lines that Russia has with regard to expansion of NATO, particularly putting NATO batteries, missile batteries or nuclear weapons close to its borders, particularly in Ukraine. And why is it particularly in Ukraine? Because Ukraine has a history behind it, part of the factory is a part of Soviet Union. One third of the speakers, people who declare Russian as their number one language, not going to call it the mother tongue, one third of the population of Ukraine speaks Russian as their first language. So there is a Russian stake over there and it's also true over the last decade or so, we have seen slow erosion of the right of the Russian speakers in Ukraine, which NATO who otherwise claims to be the defender of democracy, we know how shallow that is. But nevertheless, when they talk about it, they don't talk about the fact that Russian radio stations have been stopped Russian newspapers and these are all Ukraine speakers of Russian. They're not Russian Russian in the sense that all of this has taken place, and there is a clear rise or what will be called anywhere else, right wing forces, owing allegiance to essentially the Nazi sympathizers or supporters or collaborators, if we will, of Ukraine during the Second World War. All those are being now brought to the forefront, and the militias are very much a part of the Ukrainian forces, and very much in the frontline of all these attacks as well as post to also perhaps enter Donbas region fighting big breaks out there again. So Russia's response to all of this has been twofold. One is to say, if what the Minsk accord had said that autonomy and discussions with this government in Ukraine, Zelensky government as it is now, it does not take place. Then it's a violation of the Minsk agreement. Now, this is something that the Europeans have refused to respond to, and the NATO has been only talking about Russian intervention in Ukraine, not willing to say that will the Ukrainian government central government, send its troops again to Donbas, and that was the fight, the war that took place over there, which led finally to the Minsk accord where peace was a reached with the understanding, the two parties, the Donbas region and the Ukrainian central government would discuss the issue of elastic autonomy. So that not having happened. Are we going to see it again, the civil war breakout, and this time it's Ukrainian forces like last time, entering the Donbas region, and trying to exercise central authority over the region. Now this is a red line for Russia, which it is said in so many words, but the other part which they have raised is the NATO expansion, and the fact that NATO expansion, while it was said that it will not expand beyond the German borders, this is the undertaking that was given to Gorbachev, that has not only not been kept, it has moved, as somebody has pointed out, 600 miles east of that border. So given that Russia has now said, we have a red line, we don't want any more NATO missile batteries on our borders. And if this happens, then it is an existential issue for Russia. So more important than that, I think is the issue, will the NATO forces, will the United States back the central government in Ukraine to intervene militarily on Donbas, and if they do, then of course Russia will protect Donbas, that's what it has been saying. The ball is really not on Russia's court, it is really on the court of the NATO powers, and the fact that they're not willing to go to what, go the course that themselves had agreed to in Minsk. I think that is the key issue on the issue on this Donbas region and the tension that is building thereof. And we don't see that we have resolved anything over there except the fact that now Biden for the first time has said they are going to set up a mechanism with Russia to discuss the expansion of NATO and Russia's, whatever Russia's reservations might be. And the fact that they're going to discuss it also seems to be causing some repercussions, some misgivings, some fear in the other NATO partners who in the expansion that NATO has had are also on the borders of Russia. But I think that's something that we now have to see what would be their reaction and what is the US reaction to that going to be. So probably the next question then would be that, what has been the response of the other countries of NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union, what has the response been to do these discussions that are going on? I think the fact that Russia has now started laying down some red lines means that these countries are worried that is it possible that Russia might say that you remove the missile batteries, you don't put NATO troops on the borders. Is are those things possible? You know, when the NATO expansion took place, Norway and a couple of other countries in NATO had suggested that, you know, we don't really have to position troops, batteries and so on. We can give an undertaking that will not put nuclear weapons in these countries. We can not put missile batteries in these countries, even if they joined the NATO. That is what at that point of time, the United States was not willing to agree to. And they in fact, the opposition of some of these countries, Norway being one of them, they said, no, no, we'll go full ahead and do what we want over there. And that's what has led to what today Putin calls as a threat to Russia, that NATO batteries are really on the borders of Russia and can hit Russia within about five, seven minutes. And meaning not Russia only, but the command centers in Russia, which is what is the worrying part in the nuclear exchange. So given that, though they have been very late at laying down the red line, which they have done over Ukraine now, the real issue is that is going to continue to be a contentious point. And if, for instance, Biden is willing to negotiate with Russia about NATO, then it does mean that some of these issues which have not been under discussion, the US has refused to accept that, that these are countries, these are issues with which we can negotiate with Russia. And this is free for us, you have nothing to do with it. It's their sovereign right, it's our sovereign right to do what we want. Theoretically, that's true, but it's never been true that we put missile batteries on my borders, that I have no say in it is correct. But it does also mean that I can threaten you similar. So you know, these kind of issues are not a simple matters of rules and law. They're also matters of geo-strategic importance. So given this, I think for the first time, the United States has recognized at least to need to talk to Russia on this. Will it lead to any change in the Baltic regions in other countries like Romania, Poland who host NATO batteries? We will have to see. I don't think those countries as much leverage, as for instance, Russia has with respect to the Baltic, other smaller Baltic countries. So we'll have to see what happens over there, but it's quite possible that Putin accepts what is already a fake company, that the batteries are there, but puts his foot down on the issue of Ukraine. And that's also because if they want to put nuclear missiles in Ukraine, Ukraine may also have a finger on the trigger. And that's something that Russia would not really accept. So I think this talk about the Baltic countries getting really scared or spooked. Though I think those are really minor issue. The real issue is Ukraine. And Ukraine is clearly coming to be something which will lead to the NATO either accepting that Russia has a stake in Ukraine or telling Russia, we don't accept whatever you are saying, we will integrate it into NATO. We'll use NATO forces if necessary to conquer Donbas and we'll put missile batteries. And if you don't agree with this, if you don't accept this, then we'll use what has been called the nuclear economic sanction, which is throw you out of the swift system, which means it's really a declaration of economic war. So you know, things are very, very poised at a very critical in a very critical way. And I think the real issue will be what is European Union going to do, because if the sanctions are extended to Russia the way the Americans have threatened effectively this is the threat the game that will throw you out of the economic system. Very severe economic sanctions, they called it. It means that there will be non stream gas, which is supposed to be what is reaching Europe, Western Europe, also the gas which goes to Ukraine and Poland to Western Europe, all of that will stop because they will not be able to pay for it. Because it's good for the United States they're fracking gas, we can then be exported to Europe, but the point is it's a disaster for Western Europe as well. So what are the European nations going to do is something that we have to watch and unfortunately which is having a change in government at the moment, there the people who have come into power seem to believe that fight with Russia is not too bad for us. Now why they think so I have no idea, but it does seem to, we do seem to see developments which are quite aggressive, and which is not what Germany did under Angela Merkel, so we'll also have to see the new government in Germany how they behave, and in Europe, let's face it, Germany is the major player followed by France. So these two countries are really going to decide how the European Union will respond to this at the moment, the position is not clear what the European Union and the European powers in NATO are going to do. And I think a lot of that would also depend on what approach they take to the issue of Ukraine. Thank you for talking to us today for me. That's all the time we have. Keep watching.