 My name is Tony Federico. I'm the VP of marketing for natural force I've had the pleasure of being at HS. This is my third or fourth year. I believe I think maybe actually fourth year They all start they all start running together, but um anyway, I have had the fortune of Meeting and knowing all these folks for many years going back to the first paleo effects event and have Being able to kind of grow with the paleo movement and one of the things that I wanted to do here this year is To give everybody an opportunity to just kind of do a little bit of a pulse check and say Hey, we've been doing this, you know for how long now are we moving the needle? How are we actually changing the game? Are we actually making an impact? What is the state of paleo? So that's what brings us here today and just in case anybody is not familiar with any of our panelists I I think for the most part you know who these folks are but We'll go through it. Anyway starting on the end there We've got Rob Wolf former research biochemist health expert and author of the New York's time the New York Times bestsellers the paleo solution and wired eat Rob Wolf welcome Go ahead and give him a round of applause. Come on Then we have Nora Jed Gaudis Nora Nora Jed Gaudis Get Gaudis. There we go. I'm sure it's happened once or twice before a Health writer speaker educator with 20 years clinical experience and working with the brain and foundational Functional medicine author of the best-selling books primal body primal mind Has a new book primal fat burner teaches a popular weekly accredited educational program primal restoration She's just crushing it all across the board Nora. Welcome Give a round of applause And I'm just gonna buy my list by the way in case I'm not skipping you Denise or Aaron Darrell The favoritism It's looks that's what we're doing Darrell owner of fitness Explorer training international speaker certified personal trainer Nussurional therapists an award-winning author of paleo fitness and paleo from a to z which I believe a Gandalf actually was the narrator of your book He was quite a quite a catch there And then sit next to Darrell. We have Michelle Norris. Michelle is a former corporate warrior trained chef multi potential light Who's personal health issues and struggles with traditional medicine? Orthodoxy inspired her to upend the way the world tackles health She did that by starting or co-founding paleo effects Which maybe some of you guys have been there the largest paleo event in the world for Michelle and Darrell And there we love you Darrell most awkward introduction ever That's fine, man, we'll just rock with this Then we got Denise Denise Minger is a health blogger public speaker nutritional consultant author of death by food pyramid a book that explores The somewhat shaky foundations of what we believe about food. Welcome Denise and then last but certainly certainly not least We have Dr. Aaron Blaisdell UCLA professor of psychology member of the UCLA brain research Institute integrative center for learning and memory and Evolutionary medicine interdisciplinary center dr. Blaisdell is the co-founder of the ancestral society and editor in chief of the Journal of evolution and health welcome. So just to start things off What's the what's the status of the patient, you know, if we're talking about health You know here in the paleo movement. We don't define health as simply the absence of disease We look at it as vitality. We look at it as energy as well being so from that framework What's the status of paleo? What's the health of the paleo movement at large and let's go and start with you, Michelle Think that one's good. Is that better? Oh, yeah, okay So state of state of paleo. What's how's the patient looking? Actually, the patient is looking a whole lot better than we originally thought Lot of you may know that at paleo effects We made the announcement that we were going to rebrand and remove the paleo from our name and we were going to go to Health FX. I believe you probably all got a if you're on our list. Sorry. I assume That we have made the decision not to rebrand and it was over. Yes. Oh wow Breaking news. Yeah and We had overwhelming response Very very positive that a lot of people were saying yes, it's the right move. You should do it But then we had some branding experts that came to us and said hey, we really think you should rethink this and So once they did that we first we told them look we don't have any money to pay you But they were like that's okay We just really have a we have a vested interest in this and so they just showed us how we are actually not tapping into and it's Probably across the board. It's probably all of us. We're not tapping into Equity on the web that we could be and so they when they showed us that it just was kind of overwhelming and the thing is is that we were running into a lot of roadblocks with The paleo moniker we were seeing a lot of people really kind of resistant to it because a lot of people come to it with preconceived notions about what it is. Oh, it's just Incredible amount of bacon. It's lots of you know, I mean, yeah so much bacon and raw bacon and you know it raw Anyway raw that was one of the ones I got all the time was how do you eat all that raw meat? And I'm like I don't there was this thing invented called fire and we went from there and so It's interesting because literally when we decided to change to health effects. We had We had been to another conference where a lot of people know who we are we're in the paleo moon Oh, I couldn't I could never do paleo. It's just too restrictive and I always ask the question Okay, what's your what is your eating habits? What's your dietary lifestyle? What is that and? Literally, I had ten people tell me this at this conference six of them all answered whole 30 and I went okay So we just really started getting the message that the thing is is that you know, obviously Dallas and Melissa did an incredible job with Moving away from the paleo moniker because it's not tied to it But yet it's exploding and it is paleo and so it's an interesting thing So we started seeing that I personally think we We are gonna have resistance. It's just gonna be part of the journey and but I think that the patient is very well and doing well and we see it with particularly things like we just had keto con this last week in in Austin and You have keto we have all of these different things that are under the umbrella of paleo and a lot of people are like So we have whole 30 keto. We have low carb. We have you know Atkins is kind of there, but you know, all of these things that kind of fall under our umbrella and people think Well, that's kind of muddying the water and I say it's diversifying our portfolio So the thing is paleo is a jumping off point and I think that as long as people understand that that it's the jumping off point You can decide to go keto you can decide to go low carb you can go primal you can do whatever it is that you want And I I think we're gonna see a lot of longevity for for a while. So Long and short start so Darryl you're a spend a good amount of your time across the pond which is in England for those who don't know What do you see what do you see happening overseas? Yeah, so I am the token British guy on the panel Yeah, before you get that English British humor right there. So, um well in terms of the state of paleo I am eternally grateful To paleo and the paleo lifestyle Especially because for me it was far more than just the dietary Change I think it's and again, it's my journey But I feel it was the first time that I felt there were so many answers available to me around living a more holistic lifestyle and and that and Seeing that kind of being constantly explored And seeing far more discussions around the aspects of a healthier lifestyle, which don't just gravitate towards food That's what I feel is probably the most powerful and potent message around paleo And really is a fantastic antidote to Chronic lifestyle disease so as far as I'm concerned I'm just really happy personally and want to celebrate the fact that I encounter the paleo lifestyle well and and we've got a The Berlin paleo con is on their second year and probably going on their third year So now we're starting to see some movement in that space as well. I believe you have been to one of those events, right? Yeah, I've been to the Berlin paleo conference. I actually hosted a conference called health and plugged which Rob was involved with kind of satellite linked into a conference. So paleo Is really important across the world. I mean Australia has a really fantastic paleo presence It's become part of vernacular part of the vernacular Even if you don't mention the paleo term So, so yeah, it's lots lots is happening across across the world all on the back of of paleo. So, yeah One thing I'm gonna add to that is You know, we've since year one of paleo effects. We've had a lot of people asking us to come overseas Australia we went actually out to London and realized we were not ready to go We plan to do that in the next year or two But the amount of people that are doing this particularly and I know Nora can speak to this Australia she goes to Australia and speaks there to lots of people We have an entire group that's there ready to go and ready to blow paleo effects up overseas and So I think it's been pretty amazing, but I'm a lot nor finish that So, yeah, I see a couple of different things happening. I remember at the very first Hs at UCLA I thought that this is amazing. I mean, I didn't know there was a paleo movement somebody called me and said, yeah We're gonna have this conference. I'm like, wow, there's there are other books on this subject matter out there. Wow, okay, cool and I remember looking around and being really glad that we were doing this thing and having everybody come together in a really Congenial fashion and sharing this All this information and the science-based information whatever else But I also could see that there was a there was a danger that was going to emerge That whenever you have something that's that's a really kind of popular idea kind of take off you have industry take interest And so what's occurred in part is that there's been tremendous, you know commercialization and paleo has kind of come to mean whatever anybody kind of wants it to Which is a little bit of a concern. I think there's many different versions of it out There is there people claiming to practice it I've seen peanut butter and banana sandwiches on YouTube be, you know presented as paleo and all that kind of thing And so the danger of this being co-opted by multinational interests and taken over And you know for the sake of profit and then turned into a fad instead of a real bona fide health movement is a real concern The other thing I see happening is that the powers that be are starting to kind of get restless and sit up and take notice You know, of course, we had the recent kind of pushback with the American Heart Association and that ridiculous You know presidential advisory, I'm sure you guys are all familiar you can read it about it on my blog at great length if you'd like but anyway And this is actually happening big time in Australia. It's terrifying there actually You anybody that is publicly promoting paleo is a danger in danger if you're a practitioner of losing your license I mean, it's it's very serious over there Industry is not taking it sitting down a few years back actually was an article in the Sydney Herald And I was I was the first person ever go over and talk about paleo and and it took off over there like crazy And I've gone over, you know once or twice a year since then not this year for a change but to talk about it and Anyway, it's taken off and no small way over there and it's become a real threat the American dietetics or excuse me the Australian Association of Australian dietetic there are dietetic association of Australia. That's it. Yeah. Anyway, they're not taking it sitting down In any case there was an article in the Sydney Herald a few years back Lisa found it online one day and said wow, this is really cool where they had said that the eating habits of Australians They were cutting the 20% of the pop or of the carb and gluten consumption had had I mean Had come down in that entire country and you know, you got to realize that represents trillions of dollars, you know To manufacturers to big agribusiness to the food industry, you know to undertakers, you know, whoever else and So I think that you know that drum is starting to beat over there and it's it's not I mean I think we need to take a look at You know, that's coming. That's coming. It's happening there now, but it's coming and so we need to be mindful One of the things I think is really necessary is to come to some sort of unified definition You know what paleo actually means because otherwise it's just a buzz term that gets, you know labeled a fad And then that's all that it is so a couple things I would like to see I would like to see the idea of You know paleo being maybe a proposed definition, you know and not a focus on on health and diet or you know lifestyle and diet that is of uncompromising quality and Also in alignment with our evolutionary and genetic heritage and that could mean a lot of different things I know how I like to look at that but but at the very least You know coming to some sort of unified Definition I think could be helpful the other thing is that Rather than being seen as an industry that is looking to profit from every little thing associated with its popularity Using our 15 minutes of fame To advance improvements in the way our food is produced and in the health of not just human beings, but also of the planet Would be something that I think would help the image a great deal and and restore maybe a bit of credibility That perhaps has been lost through all kinds of oh What do you You know negative associations there's a term bad press. Yeah a bad press and just sort of a stigmas Right stigmas that get attached to this So anyway, that's that's my two bits and To Denise So from a longevity standpoint, I think paleo has one really big thing working in its favor Which is that it is currently the only Diet slash health movement that is flexible enough to evolve and if you look at almost every other diet That's out there right now. That's popular You know the Whole Foods plant-based diet is always going to be basically the same template They're not going to change their ideas or the way that they promote information Atkins diet is always going to be the Atkins diet Medriat Turingian diet is always going to be associated with olive oil and whatever vegetables and legumes You know, there's a certain template that people are going to associate with all of these things that really cannot be changed Even if new information comes in the paleo movement Might be held back in a lot of ways by the term paleo But the underlying forces that create that movement and comprise it right now is Very growth-oriented and it's probably the only movement right now that can say that about itself If you look at the progression of what paleo has been since it was first Started to be popularized, you know decades ago. It has changed from a very strict no salt no green beans No blah blah blah rigid Grocket this template to something that's more like well Maybe legumes can be okay for some people because of XYZ. Maybe we shouldn't be eating XYZ food Even though paleo man eat it because of this new information that's come in So we see this progression in this internal evolution within this movement that is in my opinion Probably going to keep it relevant for a long time The word itself paleo might go up and down in terms of Google analytics and who's googling it who's eating it right now but the concepts that are being Created promoted and explored within communities like this those are going to stay around because it's keeping in touch with Where the evidence is actually going and that's I'm somebody who hates labels in general I stay away from them I still associate myself with this movement specifically because there is that opportunity to grow within it I don't think it's fixed. I don't think that it's a slave to its own dogma It can be in some sense, but in a general one it is More future-oriented growth-oriented and evidence-oriented than any other movement that's around right now So again, it's like other people have mentioned. We have to get over that commercialization aspect We have to get over the negative press the hype around things that should not be hyped but if we stay true to the goal of making information as accurate as possible as we Pump it out into the public and start to change public opinion about what foods are good for me versus bad for me That is going to keep this movement afloat for a very long time So I live in a very strange and bizarre world called academia It's a parallel universe to I think the real world I actually enjoy that world very much because we get the nerd out and when I discovered the whole kind of paleo approach diet lifestyle and everything about nine years ago and I had profound changes my own physiology and mental Health and everything I was hooked. I realized that there's so much science behind this and as the Denise was saying It's the science is not about a set of facts a science is something that grows and evolves over time It's a process by which we evaluate our evidence. It's a process by which we can keep testing and improving and changing and learning what works and learning what doesn't and just honing over time that science both at the personal level and at a level of as a society Process and so that's why we started the ancestral health symposium and had our first event in 2011 Is because when I was coming to other faculty in my department other departments across campus at UCLA Or at conferences and talking about my health changes and how eating differently and sleeping better And the all these other factors was really improving things and the science behind it. I met so much resistance Even anger by certain people About the idea that saturated fat could be healthy the idea of these other kind of paleo processes paleo template ideas and so We started the conference and we didn't use the term paleo because I think we felt that it was Potentially a pigeonhole. It was is already acquiring within academia especially this kind of real negative connotation and so we thought ancestral health it's about what happens and well, you know where you come from both as a species or as an ethnic group or as a Community member or even yourself over time as you develop through childhood and adulthood That's part of your ancestral heritage at all those levels. We thought it was a nice term that captures all of the all of that and So the question is what is the state of paleo? What's the state of ancestral health from me? I'm interested in what's the state in academia because that's where really when they get on board scientists and The medical schools that are teaching our medical doctors and our nurses and our dentists When these people go out into the real world to practice, they're going through medical schools They're going through dental schools. They're going through a university system We're trying. I'm trying to see if that's changed that resistance and what seems to me is that it is I'm actually surprised at how quickly I'm seeing people within my community who five years ago would have been like Oh, that's all whoo-hoo stuff. They're starting to come to these ideas themselves and the literature is actually starting to change Now the funding agency is like the National Institute of Health, which is the major funding source of our government for US Medical research is very slow to adopt especially in certain segments like nutrition But there are other segments where it's starting to make faster inroads like in developmental biology And and some other areas and so what I see is it's a it's a very complex process many different Segments within the academic scientific community that ivory towers And I see that it's slowly Maybe not so slowly it's gradually but quickly picking up steam that we're getting these ideas. They're not calling them paleo Of course, they're not even calling them ancestral health, but it's the ideas. They're finally emerging They're finally becoming more widespread in the academic community And that to me is a big promise because now that's going to filter out into policy Boards at the American Heart Association people who come from academia sit on those boards It's going to set the stage for changes at those top levels Which hold a lot of the purse strings and power structures for how we talk about health in our modern world I won't go further on that, but that's a good news I think Is that horse be to death or do you want me to throw in a thought or two we can We can throw a little wrinkle at you. Okay. I do although I did I am One thing that I was gonna mention I am actually a huge fan of the market elements of Commercializing this whole movement. Well, I debated between wearing this shirt or a shirt That looks like a Coca-Cola bottle and it says enjoy capitalism. So I come at this from a really different perspective I see that Monetization scheme being really critical to building bridges between the medical the food consumption and the food production system Epic bar is a great example of that Those people give a lot of money to the savory Institute the savory Institute is kind of like our Obi-Wan you are our only hope for having a credible entity go in and say hey if we had lots and lots of big herbivores Eating grass that are converting sunlight into energy that we can't use directly But we can use indirectly and we can build this whole huge diverse fight ecosystem Somewhat like what the Americas and the rest of the world look like before humans spread across the world and killed all the Megafauna it might actually be good and all those things can actually dovetail together. So I actually Get really nervous about an idea of trying to Caughtify anything in this I would like lots of different systems lots of different ideas all of them competing kind of like a computer Operating system and let those things let the the merit Emerge based off of the efficacy instead of trying to have some all of us are flawed I trust the the average of people much more than a group of folks deciding the policy so That's that piece so, you know, it's interesting you mentioned the commercial side You know, I came from kind of a paleo journalism Place working with paleo magazine and doing podcasts for them and now I'm with a natural food company And I see what we have to do to really convince suppliers to give us products that don't have additives and you know It's not just convincing academia It's convincing manufacturers of food products and you have to have people getting in there and getting their hands dirty and doing that Work and fighting those battles to change the game and at the end of the day now. We do have grass-fed Just about everything now And people are buying those products I think from the the market perspective in some line like some insight on is Do you think that the majority of paleo products are accessible to the average person even just from a price point? perspective or does it still kind of Achieve the aims of supporting the health of maybe the upper middle class But doesn't really trickle down to the people who might be in more food desert Kind of type of situations. Oh, man, you're you're just throwing Softball pitches over the plate here So this is one of the big criticisms of paleo is that it's white middle class Etc. Etc. Etc. When the microwave oven was first cracked open Into the the consumer space in today's dollars a microwave oven would cost about $40,000 and due to Moore's law and innovation microwave ovens are now effectively disposable items About $15 you could argue that these would be like a single-use type of thing And so the wealthy subsidized this whole innovative process and developed a system for innovation That made these things inexpensive and accessible and at every smartphone that we have you know Everything is like that and food is follows a similar although not a perfect Moore's law type of example But you know Australia is interesting you pay more money there for Grain-finished meat because it costs more because you've got different energetic inputs into the whole thing So I think that we just have a situation where right now a certain subsection of people are Subsidizing the development of this process But as we get more and more players as we get two or three epic bar iterations that are all sourcing grass-fed meat grass-fed meat costs are going to come down and and You know we had an idea about doing an epic bar Back in 2003 But at that point if you wanted to deal with meat it always had gluten in it And if you had gluten containing items and they never dealt with meat And you know so there was no facilities to even do what we wanted to do like I showed Taylor and Those folks the recipes that we had and they were virtually identical to what they had developed We were just a decade early on it. So I think that we can develop a lot of Scale by just letting this whole thing move and you just can't overly criticize it It's a process like again the next year will be 20 years of me fiddling with this stuff And the first time that I stumbled on to the term paleo There were probably like 200 people on the planet that knew what a quote paleo diet was and most of were in academic settings And there was very little awareness just in a general public kind of scenario But now in Reno, Nevada if I do a talk for like natural grocers and they advertise it just in their grocery store We'll get 200 people showing up at that at some po-dunk backwards, you know city like like Reno So I think we've grown enormously. I think there's still a huge upside Yeah, yeah, yeah, one of the other things I think too is Completely agree with Rob But also it's the education piece is when you start eating this way You actually spend a lot less money And the problem is is that the initial tick big ticket item meat and that type of thing vegetables Um That's where we all still have a lot of job security because it's education too is letting people know in the long run This is going to cost you less you pay now or you pay later I'm gonna have a contrarian point of view on this I I come from a very impoverished background and I was fortunate enough to do very very well for myself working for leading investment banks around the world and and This Kind of elitism that exists isn't just about a price point. It isn't just about market penetration There are families that do not have access to this information and I feel Paleo movement in 20 30 40 years probably be like Yoga is today From the 60s until now Yoga is still predominantly white middle-class women It's still relatively elitist even though the price point has come down even though. It's there's a lot of market penetration It still appeals to certain demographic and so look at the audience here Look at the audience at Paleo effects. It's still predominantly a certain demographic And I feel we need to do a lot more to reach out to the masses And rather than expecting them to come to us. There has to be simplification of the message There has to be a real desire to want to help those who really need our help. So when I communicate even to my family members who suffer from ill health Who don't have great incomes who don't have time to listen to podcasts or read books Who are working two or three jobs? I can't talk to them about the scientific evidence as to why this is the lifestyle you need to leave I can't just tell them even about my own story in terms of how my health Improved and this is something that we really need to to crack and and it After coming to these events for several years It really does pain me to be honest that this is still The state of Paleo and that our audiences are more diversified and that we still believe it's purely about personal responsibility because When I started this journey it was about personal responsibility It was about what I could do to get better But then there are family members of mine who passed away my sister passed away last year for example of cancer and you realize There's far more to this And what we're trying to achieve then intellectual knowledge then research then market forces It's about a passion and desire to help those around us the nearest and dearest and to those that we can reach out to and help So that's what I wanted to say Okay, can I have the next? So So we just heard two very opposing predictions Rob Wolf took the sugar model where sugar used to be for rich white people and now it's everywhere from market forces and Darrell said maybe the yoga model where it's just still kind of a very restricted clientele base and and you did put your finger on education being a critical piece and My hope is that in addition to this conference in addition to what things like books that you're writing and other people are writing And our own personal stories that we keep telling and those are critical Those are critical But in addition to that the only way I don't think that paleo could go like sugar because it's not addictive That sugar's got that going for it. It's got this addictive like quality to it ever had bacon. I know it's kind of addictive I've had bacon pretty much every day and it's not addictive the way sugar is It's tasty, but it's not hyper palatable. So the getting the education piece It needs to become something that is common knowledge That is any person working in a community whether they're a doctor or a dentist or a school teacher or somebody within Rich community a poor community middle-class community no matter what the ethnic makeup if we can get those people That our community leaders to be knowledgeable Generally knowledgeable about the principles of ancestral health paleo diet lifestyle and the role that these Principles play these kind of factors play in our everyday health that's the key that's what we need to solve that puzzle and Just from my own perspective. I imagine academia. I'm gonna keep trumping that because that's where I am Hopefully can play a role in that in that we are helping to train the teachers We're helping to train the doctors that go out in the real world and join all these different diverse communities So that hopefully in addition to all our personal efforts a blogging writing podcasting Coming to these conferences. Hopefully we can also Find ways to bring this to our K through 12 education setting bring these to our doctors and dentist's office and all the community And so hopefully within academia and I've been trying to do this by lecturing the pre-med students about paleo diet and lifestyle And the science behind it trying to indoctrinate them Inoculate them with the ideas about science and evidence At before they go on to med school and I'm hoping that more people you guys in the audience who have this say in Training people are gonna go out into the these different communities can help In part the message that way and and change our standards and change our knowledge base One of the yeah So I love I love what Daryl said and and one of the myths I would like to crush yesterday it's not you know ten years ago is the idea that that That this way of eating of necessity is more expensive now I mean if you're you know eating grass-fed, you know prime rib every night or something then yeah You got me there or whatever, but Well for starters, there's nothing there's nothing more expensive to our society than the standard American diet Number one cause of bankruptcy in this country is a bad diagnosis Unfortunately, most people don't have the frontal lobes to think ahead. You know there they're you know We have this adolescent society that just knows what it's want what it wants right now food has become a nutrient devoid source of entertainment and As opposed to a source of nourishment and Foundational to health and in part, you know those that's the way You know we've been taught to think about it and the way media encourages us to think about it You know there was somebody that I worked with who Who it might be hest named a little e-book you put together called primal tight wad and It's kind of fabulous But anyway one of the wonderful things that she did was she took a week's worth of menu from the standard American diet the type Of eating that everybody thinks or not well not everybody, but the that the general public thinks that's all they can afford, right? And she priced it out to the last penny what it costs for one person to eat that way for one week and Did the best she could at making it a representative, you know three meals a day You know trips to McDonald's your hamburger help or your you know, whatever one tablespoon of ketchup one penny whatever this person's Just like brilliant with with budgeting that she knows to the last penny what she spends every single month and everything And by the way, she she lives on 20,000 bucks a year pretty much owns her own home almost outright and has a lot of leisure time Because she's figured out how to make the most of every dollar and she told me that She found the way of eating that I you know that I talked about to be actually the least expensive way She'd ever found to eat well and and I that's when I went on one knee and I said well you please write this book and call it primal tightwad The other thing she did was that she took a week's worth of menu from the type of eating that I talk about and Price that out to the last penny I would have been prepared to hear that it cost it a little more and I would have said Yeah, but we have to think of the long term in terms of health care costs whatever not only was it less expensive to eat that Way, but it actually worked out to be about close to $1,500 per person per year less expensive So there there's a myth associated with this and I think a lot of us buy into it that it's more expensive Processed food is really really freakin expensive folks, you know what the industry is what industry is selling us is really expensive And it's unnecessarily expensive. I'm not prepared to put my faith in multinational industry to you know Take care of our best interests here. They're always going to take care of their own bottom line the their you know their Their Obligation is not to create a product that is safe You know that that is healthy or that is anything but profitable to its shareholders That's their bottom line, you know, it's their bottom line isn't the same one as ours And so I think the two things we need to rely on and have some faith and one is Not just science but Independent non-corporately funded science that is not ghost-written, right? and also Finding a common ground amongst ourselves Where the same things even though a lot of us have different ideas about what an optimal diet ought to be We need to be able to come together at least on on what it is as a core issue that that we all share And then we all need to kind of focus on what we all have in common instead of all the ways in which we're different in the way we see it and and find ways of You know combining our our talents and our resources and our In our outreach to be able to get this message to the people Especially low-income people that need to hear it You know nothing makes me sicker than the I then seen people Feeling their shopping carts full of how you know hostess ding dongs and you know I mean whatever else cheese doodles, you know and soda And and feeling like that's all they can afford We need to do better than that, you know in Portland. We have a Farm called heart-to-heart farms. They do everything right everything's grass-fed everything's organic everything whatever they've raised more money actually for Oregonians than the Oregon food bank. There was like over 500,000 tons of food they raised last year something and not only that if you go to their farm now I wish more more farmers and ranchers would follow this model if you go to their farm and ranch and you say look You know, we're on food stand. We don't have money We would like to be able to feed our family better with the kind of food you grow They say great fabulous, you know, what what do you know how to do, you know And they'll put them to work for a couple days helping around the farm and at the end of a couple days They've got a whole box of the best quality food money can buy to feed their families with They've never turned anyone away because of a lack of money. This is the kind of stuff We need to be innovating right because this is about the health of our society and our and our planet at stake And I'm not prepared to trust industry and capitalism to carry that flag for us. I'm sorry I think so I take a little contrary viewpoint, but I respect Rob so I'll just throw something out there really quick because Denise is gonna say something far smarter than what I'm gonna say, but We were chatting on a podcast and something that is often missed when people start talking about this is that people who are coming from developing countries that Are say new to Westernized countries, it's a sign of affluence to eat process food and That is something that is missed every damn time that we start having this discussion like there's some onus Put on the the culture at large when in fact what is being attempted is to show hey, man I made it and so the the topic is much more complex than like we need to do Outreach the topic is that these folks are trying to attain the American dream the Western dream and part of the Western dream is Looking like eating what everybody else has perceived to eat And so that's a whole other layer to this thing that is oftentimes miss and this is an opportunity that they're drawing on like Western price Practices the you know the traditional diet of Mexico was incredibly healthy until they started adding in a bunch of Westernized process crap In addition to what was you know historically the traditional diet So there's a lot of layer and nuance to this and that's why I do actually kind of kick the can out a little bit In and have some faith in people Figuring this stuff out and actually yeah, yeah, I'll leave it at that I have lived in 38 different places in my adult life and I can really relate to what Darryl said because as somebody who's very savvy about my budget in terms of food costs looking for deals I Can see a variation of about 200 percent between different areas that I've lived in my budget And that's like as somebody who's very educated who does an obsessive amount of research and who will travel long distances to get really good strawberries so From that perspective I can understand this the problem, you know different economic classes having different access to foods that may or may not be helpful for them and Also just to the knowledge of what is good for them But I actually think that in the long run paleo even the commercialization aspect and even that yoga aspect Is going to be helpful because what we're seeing right now is this undercurrent once upon a time People had this belief that XYZ food was good for me and XYZ food was bad for me and this is still the mentality that most of America has There's like two boxes for everything that we see it's good for me or it's bad for me There's not a lot of concern about the nuance between This might be good for me and certain some contacts and that sort of thing And so we need to work with that mentality because it's probably not going to change in any of our lifetimes but what paleo can do is start nudging different foods between those boxes and you know, we're seeing a resurrection of Maybe higher cholesterol foods that are also very nutrient dense like organ meats getting put Out of that bad for me box and putting into the good for me box and if we can continue that trend of moving foods and Shifting the underlying mentality that people approach food with I think over Over time we're going to start seeing something like Rob was saying like this mentality of the Western Dream is to eat a bunch of processed garbage if we can change that underlying mentality we're going to see other things following behind it because The industry is going to follow profit and if that profit starts turning towards Healthy foods being the ideal then there's going to be a marketing sweep that comes behind that There's going to be financial benefits that come behind that and support that and bring it perhaps to a more Accessible place for the average American. So that would be my hope and I do Resonate a lot with what Daryl said just because I I just moved from Portland, Oregon to a small island in Washington And I am shocked at how much my food bill has gone up Even though I I try my best to pick things from gardens steal, you know Pears from people's trees when they're not looking And Despite all those things I'm still struggling, you know with the trying to match my original food budget So for somebody who doesn't have time to research things and he was maybe managing five children and a job two jobs Three jobs trying to make that all work. Yeah, it's going to be a big struggle so again, what we need to rely on is having this maybe a Leap movement kind of being obnoxious for a while, but eventually having this wake that follows behind it That is turning things and that is Reassigning good for me and bad for me foods in a way that is going to be supported by the industry. So maybe best of all worlds Just a one something one sentence comments when I started paleo. I felt I had to be you know, a PhD biochemist a chef Who's very conversant in the kitchen an exercise scientist, you know, et cetera fit a small model for sure, you know and I remember I remember saying to my mother once like oh mom You've got to start using stop using the sunflower oil for cooking and use extra virgin coconut oil and she was like Really, you know, then she started talking about what about the saturated fat and I said mom not I have the evidence It's really it's really really good food. That's what I use and she's like how much does it cost? And I told her how much it costs and she's like there is no way on earth I'm going to spend that sort of money on something to cook my food in and I remember going to see her a few weeks later And she's like oh, she's like down. I'm I'm started doing that kind of coconut oil stuff and She prepared it herself. She made it herself and I said mom How did you I was like I have no idea how you do that I said how did you work out how to do this and she went my grandmother taught me how to do this What a little girl So I just want to emphasize I know this is longer than a sentence, but it's not just it's not just about the price point It's it's about not patronizing Some of those communities and feeling that they have to step towards us because if they've really been getting things right for millennia Then what the heck are we talking about trying to tell them that we know best? Do you know what I mean? So some of that wisdom of the ancients and some of that knowledge which belongs to those cultures Needs to be revisited for them who best know how to implement that. That's that was my real point Well, and I think what we get when we start going down that path is we start to see why some people might be resistant to the idea of paleo If they've been eating rice for generation upon generation and they're gonna say well Hey, this is this is the lifeblood of my people. Why are you telling me that it's bad all of a sudden? I think when we have that respect for traditional food ways We we don't come across as patronizing and we do understand that maybe our views could use some more nuance But then that brings us to the kind of fundamental strength and weakness of paleo Which is that we're we're so nuanced or we've become so nuanced and then we have a hard time Focusing and maybe breaking through to certain aspects of the culture. So Paleo really kind of presents this paradox We're right from the beginning the idea is we've got this ancient body and ancient DNA and we're in this modern World so right there. There's paradox. There's evolutionary mismatch. So the whole thing is kind of paradoxical. Do you think that? that structural you know Paleo can't get out of that like there's no way to do paleo without paradox and so we're kind of saying well We want more more focus, but we want to be diverse. How do we reconcile this? Do we do we just become okay with the paleo name maybe having? Less relevance and it's more the ideas. Where do we kind of where do we direct our efforts and obviously everybody here? I mean you guys have flown from all over the world in some cases Spent tons of money to come here and hear these folks and everybody talk You're you're part of the you're part of this too. You are this movement So, you know, what can what can all of us do? To to make a difference and I think that's what we're really here for is to try to make the world a little bit better and you hear You know, I think Rob did it really well and particularly in this new book wired to eat We are coming down to Personalized nutrition and the thing is is that we're all individuals and we all have different needs And I would venture to guess as many people are in this room. That's as many paleo diets as it exists For sure just in this room not including everyone else And I think one of the things particularly and I'm gonna get a little on a soapbox here. Sorry You know, we have this tendency to be very judgmental As humans about everything about the way somebody else lives about the way somebody else eats about the way somebody else Drives talks you name it listens to music Whatever the case may be and the thing is is that at the end of the day You need to worry about what's on your plate not what's on somebody else's now if somebody asks you or you know that You can help better in a way. That's not judgmental. That's where we need to go that's where we need to get is is Giving out the information Not preaching and the problem is is that so many times we come across as preaching and I can tell you Especially becoming a brand-new evangelist of paleo as Keith calls it. I was that way I am in the thing is is that when you start feeling a new normal and you start feeling just this Great wonderful feeling of well-being and wholeness that you haven't felt all your life Of course, you want to shout that from the rooftops You want to beat everybody over the head with it and what have you but at the end of the day You need to worry what's on your plate and not what's on somebody else's and that it works for you and you know And celebrate when something works for somebody else and you know There's a lot of things Keith can get away with that. I can't get away with I can't eat I'm happy for Keith to be able to have those things I can't and Sometimes if I cheat and have it which I hate that word cheat But if I have it I'm I know that I'm gonna pay for it and I consciously make that decision I just think we really need to be more mindful about our own situation and and just helping other people Make it be their idea. Like if it's not their idea They're not going to adopt it and they're gonna be resistant. So I Think we've got maybe you time for one more person to say one more thing Have we have we have we said it all we still haven't figured out what paleo is So I've been involved with paleo for a long time and I hated the name from the beginning just detested it I think ancestral health is a much better overall moniker. I think that far too little emphasis is placed on The work of Westnay price. It's been all kinds of pissing matches back and forth with that That's a whole interesting deal, but there's huge opportunity there particularly if we're talking about reaching out to Different cultures because we we can see where an intersection of a traditional diet plus Westernized sugar and refined food is a disaster So there's huge opportunity to just decouple all the emotionality around it and whatnot But also people like having some something that they identify with and I think that this is the The push and pull people want to be part of a tribe. They want something to identify with we need something To call it so that there's some starting point, you know And this is kind of the challenge that I had with writing wired to eat you started a 30,000 foot level describing kind of ancestral health and the whole unprocessed foods But then does it go keto does it go this way does it go that way and that's where we get really granular And so you're moving from high focus to low focus and we need to be comfortable with doing that and it's not easy But it is completely counter to our evolutionary wiring like we are wired to have Immediate needs immediate Necessity we address those and then we sleep and reproduce and life is good and and that's it So even the the necessity of doing that is something that we need to stick in the frontal lobe and isn't instinctual Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for for shaking it up Talking about the state of paleo