 of the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today, we're going across the sea to Europe to speak with guests from Austria and Belgium, but we're also staying in Hawaii at the same time. My guests are Celia Debont and Armin Meyerhofer. Celia is from Belgium and Armin is from Austria. They are both enrolled in the LLM Master of Laws program at the University of Hawaii's William S. Richardson School of Law. I've asked Celia and Armin to share their personal and knowledgeable European perspectives about current events in Europe focusing on the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Welcome, Celia and Armin. It's good to see you. Thank you so much for coming today and being my guests. It's nice to see you both. Before we get into the questions, and I really want to get into those, let's take a look at the map of Europe and see where you're each from. OK, so Celia, Belgium is on the coast there and it is closer to the United Kingdom than to Ukraine. And then Austria, Armin, is kind of in the middle of everything. And it stretches east and west. And depending on where you're living, I guess geography plays a part in perspectives. Is that anything you want to add, either of you, to the geographical descriptions? Geographical descriptions are accurate. It might be interesting to mention that if you live in the east of Austria, you're closer to Ukraine than to the west of Austria. And can I assume that may make a difference in your views if you live there? It sure does, especially the capital of Austria, Vienna, is located in the east. OK, yeah. Now, I want to get right to it. I mean, I want to ask you generally, because I want our viewers to gain some knowledge. What are the perspectives within Europe concerning the Russian invasion of Ukraine? And then I'd like you each to talk about your respective home countries, Austria and Belgium. Let's begin, Celia. Generally, what are the viewpoints that you can share with us from your personal experience and knowledge about Europe and Belgium? Yeah, Europe is against the Russian invasion of Ukraine. There has been a lot of economic sanctions. I know they're talking about maybe even go harder on the sanctions and especially for Belgium. There was sort of president of Ukraine, Celensky, he had a speech, he talked by Zoom. And at the end of his speech, he had a standing ovation of all the parliamentaries. So we're basically siding with Ukraine. And that's the general view in Europe. And is it the same in Belgium? Is that what I can conclude? It's the view of Belgium, most of Belgium's. I don't think it's everybody's OK with the economic sanctions of Europe. I know Austria, some of them are not completely agreeing with Europe. I think Armin can talk about it a bit more. Armin, yeah. OK, now, what is your views and perspectives? First, I agree with Celia on the European perspective. The whole European Union seems, on the surface, at least very united against that war of aggression. All the sanctions were kind of a bit hard to implement. Well, let's say certain of them were hard to implement for Austria because Austria, in addition, is a neutral country. So we try to stay neutral, but we have to implement certain sanctions. OK. Well, OK, how do you do that? I mean, what is happening? How does Austria, and why is it neutral? And how does it implement sanctions if it's supposed to be neutral? They are economic sanctions mostly. And why is it neutral? That is buried in history. It comes from the Second World War, right after that. Austria said, OK, we don't ever want something like that to happen again. So Austria declared something like an eternal neutrality, which is in our constitution. It says that we can't assist countries in certain issues, but we're not doing any military aid, as in aggressive military aid. Sometimes we send out peacekeeping forces, but that is more like cleaning up after a war, like removing of landmines and so on. But nothing like we send heavy artillery to support the war. And Belgium, do they send material to support Ukraine at this point? Have they done that or are not? No, they haven't. But I know they have sent military to Romania but to protect the European borders and not to help Ukraine. OK, so so I'm getting from you both that there is a general feeling in Europe that there is a that this Russian invasion is wrong and not supported. Is that correct first, generally? Yeah, both. Yes. OK, but there are some reluctance also from both from all throughout Europe and from your own countries. Yes, because Ukraine is not part of the NATO. So they don't want any military action against Putin, because Russia is still a powerful country. I mean, we can see what the gas prices and everything has been up, like, I think, 150 percent, even more. So we know that if we go to war with Russia, it's going to be a world war. Well, OK, let me and this may be follow up to Armin's talk about the reluctance to do some restrictions, the gas and oil. I mean, how did how did Europe get involved with gas and oil from Russia? I mean, does then didn't that seem like a strategic mistake? And and is that one of the reasons that Europe is reluctant to do more from what I'm hearing? And you got to clear me up if I'm wrong. So. Celia, let's start with you. I don't have an answer. I don't understand why they would if I know that right before the whole thing, they were already to Belgium, was already talking about getting the gas and oil from another country. But I honestly do not understand why they took so long to change it. But I don't have an answer for that. I'm sorry. I don't know. Armin, your thoughts. I I tried to find to find out a bit more in preparation of of this. And so what I found out was that Austria actually is only well, Austria gets 80 percent of its oil from somewhere else. So not Russia. But it is. What I what I read, it is that the general energy need in the whole European Union is so high that a complete gas and oil embargo and when we would say like, let's stop importing anything from Russia, that would not be possible. Is then we I think we get about 10 percent gas from Russia. And there are some countries that get about 20 and sometimes even to 40 percent of their whole energy demand via Russian energy. So we there's a economical problem with sanctions for Europe. That's the realistic viewpoint. That's what I hear you saying. Yes. Are there any other repercussions besides the oil and gas? Anything specifically for Europe or your countries? Armin. I try to think about that. I mean, the oil and gas is kind of a major major economic factor. So that is that is given. But the other the other sanctions or the other repercussions we have is certain we're not allowed to deal anymore with certain companies in Russia or some companies even said we don't wait for a sanction like that. We simply cut ties with all Russian clients or customers. We simply are not cooperating anymore with Russian companies or even with companies that are mainly in Russian hands. OK, so there are private companies taking action. Not with government approval or anything. Just doing it because they feel it's the right thing to do. Is what I hear you saying, Celia, what's what what's your views? So we import a lot from Russia. And I looked it up, I saw on a site that they blocked thousands of luxury cars from Russia. They seized it in a Ford. But it's mostly in line with the European sanctions. For example, we just read here, blocked one hundred ninety six billions in Russian financial transactions. OK, is that a private company is doing that? Basically, or government? Government. OK, now. Is there a consensus in Europe about why this is happening? I mean, you know, haven't we had enough problems in the world? Why do we have to have this? Is there is there a thought about why this invasion began? Celia, is there a is there a European consensus about that or within Belgium? Is there thoughts about it? What what is that perspective? In Belgium, they say it's a war of Putin and not of the Russian people, because we believe that. He's he wants to reunite the previous countries of the USSR. OK, and he used. Do he says that there is a genocide of Russian people in two parts of Ukraine. And that's how he started it, how he justified the invasion. And that's why we think he started the war. So the Belgium view is that he's he's trying to reunite. The Soviet Union country. I see Carmen or powerful. I mean, we're saying different. Not not not not at all. Not at all. We we see it kind of similar, but because our proximity to. That whole eastern part, if he would, if. In case Ukraine would be part of Russia again. What stops? What what would stop Putin to do the same thing with other former USSR countries? He already did it with Georgia. Exactly. And so OK, so and I hear a distinction between Putin and and the Russian people, although there has been a lot of criticism about the Russian people, per se, which I've I've seen. But I mean, do Europeans think that this is Putin's war, essentially? Or is there still relations with the Russian people? How is that? Armin, how is that going within Europe and Russia? What is the viewpoint towards who, you know, who's responsible? And is there a bad feeling about the Russian people? So from from what I was reading, there is there is a lot of, let's say, articles that point towards that it's a war of Putin. So he's he's in control of this. It's not per se the Russian people. There are from what I read, there are lots of of Russian people, actually, against the war. Some of them are at least they try to demonstrate. They get they get usually very very quickly off the off the streets and in front of criminal judges. And yeah, so at least that's what I could could read about that. Celia, you know, there's been so there's there's sort of a distinction, is that right? Between Putin and the Russian people, there is a animosity towards Russia. And I mean, the people as opposed to Putin in Belgium are is there a distinction? Some people think that the Russian population should be go against Putin. Some people understand that they are I'm trying to find a better word for brainwashed, like with the propaganda. So it's. I mean, like Armin says, you can't demonstrate you're going to jail as soon as you're I mean, that's why we read about it as soon as you are against what Putin thinks and says you you don't have any rights. So I think some people are making a distinction. Like they might think that they're in the right to invade Ukraine. But at the same time, is it because they really think it because they only hear the Russian side of it? So I hear you both saying that the European viewpoint is that there is a distinction between the people who may be innocent, but brainwashed to use that and and Putin, who it's just has his own goals in this. Is that correct? More or less. Yeah, I think that's a good summary of how we think about it. But silly, you you also mentioned that a NATO kind of plays a role here and there's been some news that maybe Finland and Sweden would join NATO. And there's also been some talk that NATO caused this problem because it it is a threat to Russia somehow. Any thoughts on I mean, and Belgium is is the host country for NATO, right? I mean, that's where the headquarters are. Well, what are your thoughts about NATO's involvement in those questions? He's probably NATO is probably a threat to Russia, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's NATO's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine. That's my opinion. Do you think Finland and Sweden are going to join NATO? I don't know. I really don't know. I hope so. So we're more countries, but I'm not sure. Armin, your thoughts and also I mean, well, I know that you said that Austria is neutral for historical reasons. And as anybody talked in Austria about joining NATO, but first of all, Finland and Sweden, what are your thoughts? I think I think they will at least try to to join NATO. They would benefit in my opinion from it. They I mean, Sweden and Finland, they are, let's say, also very close. And if I'm if memory serves me, Finland had an issue and Sweden, I think, with Russian mates violating their airspace in the past, more and more. That could lead to, again, something very bad. If they join even that could lead to something really bad. But I know what you what you meant before that talk that the NATO NATO might have caused it because Ukraine wanted to join NATO and Putin felt threatened. I read these arguments, too. But on the other on the other side, Ukraine wants to join the European Union now, too. So. It's a bit it's a bit hard to to see through. All of that. Built to come, those are and feel and it's uncertain how it'll work. It's sort of a chess game in a way is what I'm hearing. I mean, people are still waiting to see what's going to happen and they're not sure what the reaction will be and there's some caution. Yeah, I think it's more like a three dimensional chess game, not just a plain two dimensional. It's more like a three dimensional chess game, which is way more complex than a traditional one. And on your other question about Austria and NATO views, there have been I mean, since I since it since I can remember there has been talk about shouldn't we shouldn't we join NATO? Shouldn't we abandon neutrality? But I think since it would involve a constitutional amendment, this would be really hard in the current political environment to push through. So I don't think that in the near future, something like that is going to happen. OK, well, you mentioned I mean, I'm going to get back to this and talk some more about Austria specifically. I mean, you say they want to maintain neutrality, but there is some talk about NATO, but would Austria build up its own military at this point? Is that is that being considered or is it taking steps in that regard? One big part of being neutral is being able to defend yourself if you're being attacked. So Austria has its military. So we have a military and unless you don't want to pick up a gun, you have to do a military service, mandatory military service. It's quite short, but you have to do that. You undertook that. Yeah, I did that in 2003, so a while ago already. And I mean, it's mostly it's mostly seen as it is kind of a civil service, what the military does. It's here for when something really bad happens, like floodings and so on, to rebuild ridges, to make certain towns accessible again, but also to enforce water protection. Now less than maybe before, I think, 2008. Because then we expanded the Schengen room. Yeah. Celia, let me ask you, you know, you have some, you know, one of your hobbies is tennis, OK? And I know and has there been any reaction about your friends in Russia who play tennis? And have you have you heard anything about that to this event? I don't have any friends who play tennis, but I know that UK is not part of Europe anymore, but we have the Wimbledon. There's a Wimbledon tournament and they banned all Russian and Belarusian players, and there are some rumors about maybe Paris with the other big tournament to ban Russian and Belarusian players, too. And that would be a general European viewpoint that that's a proper? No, because France is not completely agreeing with what Wimbledon did. So that's the whole point of like, should they do it? Some people think they should some other. Again, there is a distinction between Putin and the Russian population because there is one important player, Rubelev, who is openly against the war. Oh, OK. Yeah, it's just it depends on who decides what's going to happen. And I think every country in that sense is different. OK, so that's interesting. That's the point I don't think I've heard before. Now, we have a few minutes left. I just want to ask you both. Is there any European leader who inspires trust, confidence and hope within Europe, within the people of Europe at this time? Is there anybody in particular that you could talk about? Celia. There is no one in particular, but with the French elections just being done. And so you have Macron, who won. I'm happy. And I think most Belgian people are happy about that because Le Pen has had close relationships with Putin. So we wouldn't know how that would end up. So I'm I'm going to say I'm not 100% behind Macron for everything he thinks and does. But it's better than Le Pen. OK, would that be a general viewpoint? You think in Europe and in Belgium? No. OK, all right. That's your viewpoint. OK, Armin, please, what are your thoughts in that regard with respect to somebody, a leader in Europe? I was I was trying to think about that very hard. But honestly, I don't see I don't see any any leader that stands out in the whole in the whole European Union, at least the ones that I that I follow. They're quite, let's say, the opposite. There are a few ones that might be dangerous. Even I think a few days, a few days ago, maybe a couple of weeks, it was the Ukrainian ambassador in Hungary said they should stop undermining European unity. Because their leader is more on the Le Pen side. Let's call it that, like Celia said before. And that that's what I meant in the beginning when I said that it seems that on the surface, there is unity, but if you go a bit deeper, there are certain conflicts. Let's call it that. OK, so it's a deeper, deeper conversation, there's different perspectives. And guess what? The United States is similar, I would think, to some of that. Now, in the minute we have left, do you have any other closing thoughts that you'd like to share about Europe, the perspectives that you have, Armin? What would you like to convey to people in Hawaii and the world and the United States in particular about Europe and what it's going through now? I think I think Europe has has a different, a completely different view on that armed conflict than the US. We're living right next to that conflict. The US is far away, at least at least an ocean away on every side you look at it. So it's happening right next door. And the people that are affected there, they look like our neighbors, they could live right next to you. So there is some certain people can relate to them better and maybe that's something to take into account when thinking about that. So there is concern by proximity, by geography and, hey, America, you're you're a long way away from the bombs. Celia, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I wanted to follow up on what Armin said. Even if I'm further away from Ukraine, it's still only three hours played from each other. And we're going to be the first one affected if there is if the war even goes beyond the borders, Ukraine, Russia. So like Armin said, we we feel with Ukraine like we see videos how it was so pretty at first. And then now it's just completely bombarded. There's no buildings left. So yeah, we're going to be the first one affected. And it's it's really scary to have something that's happening almost right next door for me and for Armin even closer to home. OK, well, I want to thank you both for sharing your thoughts. And I see, you know, that the the the proximity to the problem is causes mixed feelings within Europe and also concerns for what the future holds. And none of us know where this is going. But I'm glad to share your that you've shared your your perspective. So thank you, Celia and Armin, very much. I'm glad you're here in Hawaii and are able to talk with us about what's happening in Europe. So Mahalo, Aloha, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at think.kawaii.com. Mahalo.