 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart Van Der Zee and today I'm honored to have back on the show Ron Donette. Ron, welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks for having me again Yeah, so you are kind of infamous in the drum world. I mean you are Donette classic drums George way drums and what we're here to talk about today Milestone percussion Congrats on acquiring that the great Canadian brand. Thank you Yeah, so I've done an episode on tempus which sort of goes, you know, that's Milestone basically I guess turned into tempus in a way, which I'm sure there'll be a lot to talk about there, but This is a pretty new acquisition and I know I just you're the kind of guy where when you post something or say something online Like this it's it's always something cool and special. You've got a certain way about yourself of presenting things It's it's exciting. Oh, yeah, I I guess that's my personality coming out. I Know there's some people who might not always go along with that, but Hey, I leave with my heart. I know where it's coming from. So Yeah, yeah, I don't think anyone out there couldn't can deny that Everything you put out really that I've seen is quality. I mean you are a very attention to detail kind of guy and I think that There's no denying that between the George way drums, which are just gorgeous And your own the denet drums and now Milestone the secret to that is making sure that even your mistakes are perfect That's deep That's cool. Yeah, I'm sure we will learn a lot from you as we go about your you're just your branding and all that is I think very In the photography and the graphic design I know is really a passion of yours and and there's a lot there to cover But what is the history of Milestone percussion? Well, I am going to give you a history of Milestone percussion as as I know it right now sure because You know with this acquisition and I have to say I've been learning a lot and For my standpoint when when the Milestone Story starts is When I was a young drummer in the early 80s like anybody any child care or musician in the in the 70s or 80s we were catalog kids and We didn't have the internet so anything that we learned or knew or or Discovered was not through a computer screen It was by going to a local drum shop or reading modern drummer or a magazine or looking at a catalog That's or by word of mouth and as someone who's The kid in the Midwest. Let me tell you there was limited access to that stuff and so My earliest and fondest memory was another drummer Who was My age a Good drummer. In fact, I was a little bit envious of him because I thought he was maybe a little bit better than me He had a set of milestones and I just remember Walking in and seeing him playing them. I'm like going Those look really cool and they sound really cool and And so yeah, I got behind him and of course, you know It was it was the days of power toms and bass drums and pinstripe heads, but you know If you ever want to hear a drum set that sounds great It's it's a set of milestones with pinstripes That's good to know I mean was it So milestone is not as much of like it's like a household name is like Ludwig or Gretch It kind of has its own special category, which there's a lot of Great brands that are are like that that are like in the drummer world. They're like really hold a special place in people's hearts What was the like? I mean kind of on the history of milestone What was really the heyday of what were the the dates that we're talking about here with with milestone being in existence? You know in its original form. I'm gonna call it the clapping era that seems to be everybody wants to somebody laid that laid that label on me today and You know talking about Learning as we go. I've started to learn more and more about Who Michael Clapham was I never actually met him. I only know him through name but Some of that information has been coming out through, you know, his family and his estate and So I I would say that I think it was 11 or 12 years that Michael was actually making those and and You know Gone through the the prototyping stage and R&D and finding all of these formulas these things that I'm starting to learn Sure. And so to answer your question. It has to be any time, you know, as long as he was at the helm of that company I have not I've yet to see a kit that he made that was not Was anything less than Perfect. Hmm. Now. Do you know so Michael Clapham? Like you said Founder of the company was was he a Was he like I always like to ask that question though of like did he come from like a Like a manufacturing background that you know or I mean, how do you get into making these kind? I'm just because they're they're they're all fiberglass, right? They are yeah, and and my my knowledge of that part of the history Um Isn't as good as it needs to be and like I said, that's part of the this whole process is is learning about that But I do know that Michael sort of got his start. He was working at I believe it was Drum Village here in Vancouver, which was a local retail store now that would have been in the 70s. Okay, um, and he eventually Partnered up and took over that Retail operation and Ray Ott was involved there at some point and Which he I name always pops up doesn't it? Yeah At some point Michael and there was somebody else and their name Escapes me, but it was Michael was the driving force Behind it as I understand it and they began this development on making Fiberglass drums now, they certainly weren't the first to do it, but I do think that the process that they came up with at the time was was was pretty unique and so I Knowing what I know about research and development in the musical instrument field and sort of drawing a line back to them I Can kind of see where they were You know that development of different formulas and figuring out okay Well, what thickness do we need for a drum shell or a tom shell or a snare drum? Sure? So eventually Michael again, my understanding is that he Sold his interest in That drum shop and I believe That was right at the time that Ray started drums all I may have I May not be a hundred percent correct on that. It's you know, I think that's that's academic But that's my understanding well, and I need to So people can listen back also the tempest episode with Paul Mason. I think he covered a fair amount of the history of You know or at least gave an overview of it, which is worth checking out to kind of Yeah, I like doing episodes like this like there's there's ones on fives where all the iterations of fives I think have been covered in all of their different, you know forms in other episodes So this is kind of neat to do this with with these drums and actually Ray Ayotte. I actually sent him a Facebook message recently and I haven't heard back, but he's one he's a person. I have to get on the show I've never met him or talked to him and I don't think he's accepted the you know invite, but That's a company as well that I think needs to be covered because like you said there's a ton of history there Make sure you roll it out as a as a two-hour special Really a lot a lot there Yeah, his name comes up a lot like you said So you have been working on acquiring this this brand which which you know, it's worth mentioning too with George way and and kind of acquiring Just the trademark of these of these older brands. This is now number two for you with George way and you're doing this That's sort of a it's I mean, it's a thing that you you do, you know kind of save Brands from being it going into obscurity, you know, that's that's something that Ron Danette does now well, I certainly didn't Know that that was gonna be Part of what I ended up, you know, and I'm not I Get where you're coming from on that it was completely unintentional sure I came by it honestly because you know It's a good thing It is and and growing up and learning about drums and and then, you know, basically stumbling into this industry the things that you learn going through You know, I'm gonna be 60 in June and I started playing when I was 15 so And I'm lucky to say that I haven't lost my fascination With drums at all in fact, I there's a little bit of you know, a melancholy going on there just thinking about I'm lucky to be able to remember that feeling of opening the catalogs and looking and You know fawning over, you know pearl and Ludwood catalogs and Yeah, and and doing this actually kind of makes me feel a little bit like a kid again. It's keeping me young I hope that's yeah. Wow. What a great way to put it because I Don't know. I mean, we're lucky where we're sometimes people talk, you know non-drummers just like friends and family friends will talk about something about like I Don't know with like their kids maybe about how they don't have like, you know They don't know what they're gonna do in school not they have to go to school for drumming or they don't have this Not everyone has this passion that we all Share for drumming for anything in life. They they sometimes people don't have an obsession like we all have and I think we're kind of Lucky to to find something that's so Like we will talk about drums for the next hour and then I'll probably be googling something about the drums Right after we get done and then annoy my wife talking about it at dinner It's like we just can't get enough of it. I think about my son and I've Never pushed him in any direction towards anything. I just really took a hands-off approach and And by the same token You know, nobody pushed me and I I'm I feel so Fortunate to you know given my my history growing up to have Landed here and you know, nobody gave me any direction to you know, hey kid Play to your strengths and you'll be okay. You know, nobody ever gave me that so yeah, I'm I'm really lucky that that fate is you know Given me something to do that you know has afforded me a Comfortable lifestyle. Yeah, nobody gets rich making drums. I'm sorry just you know if you Know it going in. Yeah but it's been Deeply satisfying and I think I've said this before it's You know the real wealth comes in friends and the people that you meet and Everything and all of all of those takeaways and I You know, I don't want that to sound right. That's that really is What marks A career. Yeah, so yeah, absolutely. Absolutely So Ron, I think it'd be cool to talk about now Just the the process of acquiring milestone because I think um Nothing like that is ever easy like there's a lot of paperwork. I'm sure and there's equipment and and just Everything about it. When did it start the whole process? How did that work for you? Uh, well that's going to be a long story and I'm going to Give I'm going to give you as much detail as needed. Sure. I um This part of it This part of the acquisition started uh basically when Paul mason decided to Shut it down now Paul is a A dear friend. Um, I We've traveled the world together um And I love him dearly but on a business side, uh there was always things with paul And his business model that I never Completely understood and if there's one thing that I've learned in this industry I I mentor a few builders that I think um I see a little bit of myself in it and I'm generally Try to be a helpful person and try to encourage that. I always think that there's certainly room enough for for You know new people to start and come and have new ideas and new visions and and I I think that's great. The industry needs that we need people to keep doing that So paul decided to pack it in. Um, which to me wasn't really surprising. I You know, there was a lot of Shall we say turmoil around Tempest and um, they came down to issues of You know customer service and quality control and um And I remember those well because I mean there was even a point in time when people were calling me Because they knew that I yeah, I can't get a hold of paul like like You're his friend and I'm like, whoa, whoa Draw that line here. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, um a group of Investors and partners came together and we had an idea that we were, you know, hey, why don't we uh, Why don't we make an offer? Why don't we try and buy milestone from paul and This seemed like a good idea. I thought yeah, you know what? I don't think that brand has been done it and I more importantly From business sense. I I really had to evaluate Was the milestone brand in any way negatively impacted by its Uh implied association was tempest and um I thought that there was That there was enough there that could be salvaged and so Uh, I made an offer to paul I think this would have been about four or five years ago and um I don't know. I I I thought I was being very practical about it and I I said paul I'd like to Buy it from you and I'm gonna offer you this much money and I'm not gonna say how much it was and of course But I I don't know if there was What's to mean something about the way I said it? I really still to this day don't completely understand it, but um, I'll kind of took offense and um And I didn't speak to me for a couple of years I was like And I did I realized what did I do when I was just trying to buy And I guess it was because I I in that offer. I explained to him. I said, you know what? I'm offering you this much money because I I'm only we are only really interested in The milestone brand the tempest thing is yours and um, you know that You know goes with you kind of thing and you know The discussion amongst the partners that I had at the time was that um, You know, we can't have any involvement because there's just There was so much negativity um Over like I said over the product the customer service lack of communication and and yeah, it wasn't it wasn't pretty so um Just over a year ago, I'd say maybe a year and a half ago. I got in touch with one of those Um partners again, and we were we stay in touch and we were chatting and But you know, we should just let's just do it again. Let's let's just throw another off-road. And so we did um, and it was somewhat less than last time and um A couple weeks after Paul came back and said He made a counter offer and part of the counter offer was that um In addition to more money than the initial offer He would receive five percent of profits until he died I was like Yeah, no, that's not gonna happen. You know, and I realized he And and it was part of the friendship coming in where I was going. I don't want to hurt my friend's feelings, but It's just you can't be involved. You know, there's no that that can't happen. And so um I left it at that and I went well, you know And he decided well, it's just going to lay dormant then for you know, and I thought wow, it's just Okay, it's not my decision. It's out of my control and done everything I can and then It was shortly after that. Um somebody sent me A post that something had Paul had posted on his social media Which really took me back and it wasn't even a day or two later that I listened to your podcast Or it came to my attention and I was listening and uh, surprise surprise Paul mason had never owned or purchased The milestone trademark As a matter of fact And I have this here just because I thought, you know, this is This is relevant. Um Someone asked paul a question about milestone and he said This is part of his quote. He said I knew almost from the outset that I wouldn't be purchasing the milestone brand name as michael clapple wanted an unjustifiable sum of money for it at a time when Rather than at holding any good will value It was rather more of a detriment than an asset because of the reputational damage which michael's management had inflicted on the company Suffice it to say I was More than just a little disappointed Um not to have been given this information and um So I did my uh I did my due diligence I spoke to the people that I needed to and It became apparent to me that I could move forward and Appropriate acquire the milestone trademarks um in us and canada and so I began that process who who owned was that the clappam fan estate who who still Maintained the original trademark or who did you? to the best of my knowledge uh Michael clappam never sold the trademark while he was alive And so as it is with trademarks and the laws are similar and different in united states and canada but after um There's a certain criteria where a trademark Is basically abandoned Um and and becomes available And as it was with george way the same thing Uh, I did some research You know and discovered that The us trademark for milestone was abandoned actually a couple years before paul mason even started tempus and I also found out that Uh, I think it was it was later on than that but possibly 93 that uh The milestone percussion trademark in canada was expunged From the canadian trademark register and so a sufficient amount of time had passed that that was Legit legitimately available for anyone To register and start a business wow man that is a uh Lot of ups and downs there and I want to say as you said you are very good buddies with them there's there's There's like business stuff and then there's friendship and I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with paul And I think he did a really good job on the episode and um, I think you're being very factual But I just want to say that as a person and everything and and here we're just delivering the It's an episode about milestone, but I just want to say because i'm sure paul is listening Uh, he's a really nice guy and I I have He's a beautiful man. I love him dearly. He's a very affable guy And like myself, he made a lot of friends in this industry You know in in his time in it, but you know, I You know, yeah good. Yeah, this is a good thing, but When it comes to this, um, you know, I I just had to Quite frankly, I still don't know what to think But I just decided to move past that and do what I had always wanted to do Uh, which is not see milestone just drift into oblivion And I also Wanted to see it As I did with with george way I saw the potential for this great beloved Uh, canadian heritage brands come back And it has all kinds of potential So, um, I'm I'm delighted. Yeah Last thing on paul, I I know that on on some level someone's going to look at and go I was a shrewd move denet and I'm like From a business standpoint if I'm wearing that hat, it's like, what am I supposed to do? Um, I Did my fair share of trying to explain You know, I I have a saying you take care of business or business takes care of you Yeah, that's good. Um, if you're gonna be a businessman You got to learn how to protect your um, whatever it is that you're doing or whatever you want to do and, um So I sat down. I had a meeting with paul the day that the trademark cleared because um being the friend that he was I As you can imagine It was something that I felt that I needed to tell him in person and I did and um, I didn't Know how he was going to react, but actually he was uh, he was very calm And uh, you know, at the time he said, you know, I've always thought that if anybody could do anything with milestone It would be you And that was that, um, I think subsequently I get the feeling that he he he felt that the milestone thing was actually part of his legacy and that's where our Our opinions on milestone diverged because um, yeah, as I said, you know, when I read that thing it's like, you know, you know You rejected it out of hand for a number of reasons and you started your thing and That's yours this um, I and I have to say The use of the trademark in that interim period between michael clappum and ron danette was um Was cynical at best I don't think I saw anything That made me think it was a loved brand the way that I love it And so, um, yeah And so, yeah, um Yeah, I mean You though I feel like and and I think that a lot of people would think this like as you said you're not getting You know becoming a millionaire doing the drum stuff. I think you I get a very genuine sense with this and george way that like You're really trying to keep these brands alive and keep them from just disappearing And do it for all the right reasons and um, and maybe it again, it's it's part of your personality of like You're just you're gonna do it no matter. I mean things some feelings might get hurt along the way But I think the end result will be Uh, worth it, you know, you don't want anyone's feelings to ever be hurt or upset or hurt a friendship But uh, like you said sometimes you just have to do things that are I really had I really had to weigh it against, you know I Sleep well at night I'm a I'm a straight up Frank honest business person and I've always been good in my business dealings and I pride myself in that In doing that. And so, um, I guess, you know, if I have to look at it this way my My desire to Share and and rebuild this brand Was greater than than, you know, any other consideration. Yeah And I would do it again I think that's uh You like we've said a few times that you have a you are an individual a unique individual in the drum world Uh, because I think you've got this like I don't know. I feel like and I'm not getting all like Psychological here, but you don't mind what I gather is you don't mind standing alone If you what you believe in Is the right thing I think you'll move forward It's kind of the impression I get of you and I've always kind of admired is you you you feel A certain way you'll do it and it doesn't matter really what happens. So I think that's that's a great Characteristic. Yeah, I know it's a blessing in a curse. It really You know, it's like, oh my god, like do I really I mean come on think about it. I've got two reasonably successful drum brands right now Why am I doing this? I'm I'm turning 60 and I'm actually trying to sort of you know Wine down and and we talked about this on my segment divest a little bit like Do you really want to do this? Do you know what you're taking on and it's like the elation that absolute joy of Holding that That tangible manifestation of of Who you are Yeah, and you know in your hand and and then sharing it with somebody with drummers and You know and that's a great segue because I want to say one thing that always bothered me and and I I didn't it wasn't I didn't just hear it from paul, but I've actually heard it from a couple other Something similar from other manufacturers who work in composites is that It's always kind of a hard sell, you know because drummers want wood drums And they're not really interested in anything new and they you know and they and I'm like, huh? Yeah, are you kidding me? I've My stock and trade is making stuff that hasn't been Done before and I Completely disagree with any statements to that nature. I think I think most drummers They're not going to turn their nose up at something that sounds good. I certainly didn't the first time that I saw it I went these sound fantastic. They look great. I don't care what they're made of. Yeah, I really don't. What are they made out of? You know recycled aluminum cans Fantastic. Look at yeah. No, I don't think I think and but also like on that note It's not like it's some brand new Kind of just out of nowhere material It's been Around, you know what? I mean, I mean it's How blame? Yeah, exactly. Yeah Yeah, exactly with the spun fiberglass and which blamier will be a future episode. Yeah arguably one of the most recorded drummers You know if you drive an hour today, you're probably going to hear A fiberglass drum. Yeah, I mean, I just I don't believe that and um No, but I think I think drummers we like our heritage We like our we love our history as we should because it's the most You know historical instrument out there, but we also like modern new stuff and we like seeing the the uh the inventions and the The repurposing of old stuff, but I think that is also a good transition to What are you going to be so you got it? You you you are milestone now What can we all look forward to now? Well, you know, that was one I'm glad you said that because there was one thing that I wanted to say um I was thinking about talking about the brand in the context of what we just discussed and I think the brand And I'm thinking of the brands themselves They actually do have a personality in our and are an entity Uh onto themselves in a way that I'm I'm not 100 able to articulate right now. Uh, I did want to mention that that it's They really are bigger than Whoever owns them at the time, you know, we're just I'm just a caretaker of everything even even the denet brand. Although I really don't want that That brand to go forward without me, you know, yeah, I'm thinking about that, but um Well, wait expand on that a little more. Are you talking about how Just like let's say with I mean with I know I feel like I know what you mean. We're like, you know, these brands have like Just beyond the people beyond the players. There's a feel to it. There's like a history to it. There's like like, uh, there's just like a I don't know. There's like a style to it It's an it's an entity, isn't it? It's like it's that's what I said personality it has You know, it has a birth date and and in some cases an expiration date or some cases not there's, you know You know, you look at like companies and all of that that graph of like I called it, you know that pageant of history Where they had fallen super hard times went through world wars you know and Here they are and whatever iteration that they happen to be in Yeah, and that's how I'm I'm taking that vision of that forward and um, I think it I think it it informs how I treat the company and the brands because I don't just see it as a drum or a product or a commodity It's it's so much more than that. Yeah, I don't want to say it's a lifestyle because that sounds like a buzzword kind of thing But like it is like a like when someone pays, you know a fair good amount of money for a drum set I mean, you're really buying into like the culture of that, you know, what that brand. Oh, yes It just it becomes a part of you I would totally agree with that and um, but so that being said are you Like manufacturing all this stuff. What what what's your plans with creating new milestone drums? Um I mean tooling up and getting fiberglass and all that. I mean, that's that's a whole thing But if anyone can do it, it's you with it. It was a process and um, it went much So few turns of events that I'm not going to talk about But I just kind of shaped my head. It's like I'm like going It really does go back to that old adage like hey, you take care of business or business is going to take care of you and that's really You know what to boil down to but um, I'm so excited about it. Um, and I'll tell you about a couple of things I mean, I was just answering some questions online the other day the first um step other than securing the intellectual property was It creating a lug now um Because it's a fresh start I had to create fresh tooling for the lug and I have to say that one of the things that Always bothered me about the original Was that on the face of this lug it had a little step that went around it and I always thought it really Destroyed the the beauty of that smooth soft those radius edges and so when I recast it everything is basically the same but I got rid of that and um and you know The the end result is like To an uneducated I'd be like no, that's a that's a milestone lug But no, this is completely different. Yeah, and then of course there was a process of of getting the shells made and um That happened. I thought that was going to be the biggest the biggest hurdle But it happened relatively quickly And as you can see here, I've got a completed shell and this is um one of the first One of the first really prototype shells and um Wow It's beautiful For people listening ron's holding up a a beautiful silver sparkle. It looks like uh Milestone shell and and uh, this is just a good time to tell people You can watch these on youtube and see these if you're listening And if you're on youtube, then you're obviously watching it already, but um, so are you making those shells? Or you're you've partnered with a fiberglass kind of uh company Yep, someone someone who has uh expertise and experience in in this, you know, working with resins and fiberglass and um You know, the the fact is just to get things rolling Uh, you know, we came up with this formula, but I know that there are um Many many other Formulas available and and I know that from from, you know, learning the history of Michael Clapham that he had Uh a number of different formulas that he applied to snare drums toms and bass drums And so just to get things rolling the introduction You know, we're just gonna roll out snare drums Yeah, and uh, you know with the blessing of the Clapham estate. Um, I've been talking to uh one of Michael's sons and um, you're starting with snare drums Uh, just just to kind of get things rolling and um found the formula that we think works And we're gonna call it it's it's gonna be the founders model and uh, I'm just In the process of developing what that model is actually going to be but I I really want to pay Uh homage to Michael Clapham the founder He did a great thing. He created a great Canadian brand and he deserves to have the credit For that and I figured what better way than to include his name on, you know, the initial snare drum offerings Yeah, so what I have in front of me here now is um An example of that now this is an old milestone badge We don't I don't have all of the components yet, but uh The badge for the first 100 snare drums, which is going to be the founders model Is going to be a minted badge. It's going to be about 45 millimeters thick Chrome plated and we'll have the milestone that very beautiful simplistic You know famous milestone logo. Um, yeah, maybe that's the other thing from from a graphic design point. That's Yeah, and you've got an awesome milestone shirt on which I was going to say. I mean it's it's like I mean it yeah stuff can be very simple. Simple's good, you know And also extreme the the other end of it can be very cool too with a lot of you know design, but Simple is very good. Yeah. Yeah something and and and you know So to michael's credit, you know going back and looking at some of the you know, uh the original ads and and um, you know the branding It was always very clean and concise and and back at a time when we did now computers I mean he was doing, you know, I don't Can't even imagine how difficult it was challenging to get Um, you know Everything that you needed together just using a phone book and word of mouth. Oh, yeah now. Did you get um I mean this is again kind of the technical stuff, but so you acquired the trademark of milestone. Um, it sounds like like Tooling and machine stuff like like old shells. Did anything come with that or are you starting? You're just starting fresh starting from scratch You think and and you know what I had to do that with george way because it's and and you have a starting point and then The thing that I learned in trying to Stay true to the heritage and the look and feel is that You know, for example the george way the beer tap trough I originally had those made exactly how he made them and once I got the made I realized This is not going to work And I have to change this And so I changed that part which was machine parts that screwed together into a single die cast piece And vastly improved the functionality of it And you go well, this isn't the same and I'm going if george Had lived to be a hundred years old and was still making drums Who is to say that this isn't What he would have done it and You know, um, yeah in the same way that george's spirit informs and guides me on my decisions That I make in the shop when it comes to His products and his designs. Uh, I I think also, um Michael Clapham's Spirit is going to inform And and guide me in in in the manufacture of milestone drums and um, you know, frankly I think michael would be much happier knowing that the brand that he created was, um Alive and making drummers happy and still making music as opposed to being um, well what it might have been it's All about I mean really the there's a lot of drum brands who who were around for about 10 years or so and And we like to dig deep into them here on the podcast But like really for a 14 year old drummer starting somewhere and you know the midwest There wouldn't have heard of it But now through social media and through you doing stuff like this They get to know about these these older brands. Um, and and it made me think too about your Previous episode on the podcast you did about george way and we talked about that, you know acquisition a while back Um, I remember you saying that where if things continued on I don't think these these inventors really george way and michael clapham would want like you said the development of a brand to just stop And then not not move forward with technology Just because they stopped working on it and passed away or stopped working with the company Um, that doesn't mean it should have ended. So I think you're right to just push forward with technology and make them modern Well, I I always look at um, and you know, I I can't help but think about it You know in the context of milestone when I think about you know My my dear friend don lambardi um, and what uh him and uh, you know what he did You know with camco and there's there's some distinct similarities there, you know when he's when he Started he did the same thing that that mason did he he bought the tooling But he didn't start camco and he certainly didn't throw camco under the bus for you know any reason and he Started his own brand and Thank god for that. We wouldn't have dw drums and all of the great innovations that they've managed to You know acquire or put together and slingerland. I was thinking about the the acquisition of slingerland early on about how you're doing this and it's You you too are guys where I think uh It's like I don't know. It's like people can trust that it's going to be done right as opposed to I don't know. I don't know a company that would do it wrong. I don't want to say anything like that, but um I do I think The world has confidence that you guys Can uh can do it, you know Well, we all I mean, I don't have to name any names. We've all seen You know, uh What has happened with certain brands, you know, I I think unfortunately slingerland because of you know in that interim period when they were You know with gibson and uh and henry that you know, they they languished there and you know at that time You know, nobody was protecting the ip and now, you know, you can buy I can I can pick up the phone right now and order a thousand beaver tail lugs You know, there's no and I can Do whatever I want with them. Not that I would sure, you know, and and it breaks my heart when you know that in particular I look at that beaver tail lug. I'm going that's the most beautiful beautiful art deco lug ever made and It's become homogenized and generic pasteurized And that really breaks my heart. So yeah, that's the big company Uh, they're through doing so many of these episodes that There's the the small small ish company Going in being acquired by a big huge company and then that company after a couple years says this isn't working out The way we thought it was let's get rid of it and then it just kind of trickle things just fall apart from there That's a pretty common tail Um In the drum world, you know, it's it's sad Yeah, yeah, and then You know, I've seen some attempts to to bring certain brands back and they get it Oh, yeah 90% why did you why did you would have cost you nothing to do this right? Why didn't you just you know, especially hard for me to watch because The blueprint is right there You don't have to invent anything It's a bass drum spur. You already know what it looks like on the original. Why why why? I don't anyone. Yeah frustrating and again, that's where I just I've become much much better at um And being able to let that stuff go and just understanding that you know what I can't fix it all Yeah, because the stuff I can't fix I'm gonna fix it how it needs to be. So yeah, and you know, this is um it's it's related to this in general and everything that you do but um I've I've always kind of wondered this are are you yourself like every either be at george way or denet or now Milestone obviously with milestone you're getting help to build the shells because it's a Different material, but do you work with a fair amount of other people in general on like assembly and or when you buy a denet I mean are you cranking out every drum yourself or What's that like? I mean because you're you're one man, you know denet pays all of the bills for milestone in george way and There is only one guy here Building denet drums and that's me. Yeah. Wow So, um, you know and it is It's it's become a real challenge. It used to be It was it's it's always been a challenge, but it used to be it was a different set of challenges when I was first starting out um now it's become a matter of um How thin can you slice a run? I'm pretty transparent right now. So yeah, or you wish you could clone yourself There's times like that with everyone when you're doing something where you're the one man band kind of like with the podcaster I'm like God, I wish I could just Because it's hard to trust people to to take your baby And care about it as much as you do as I'm sure you know or have the skill to do it And I've had you know, does anybody out there want to come and work for me? Yeah, I know I've had so many People come in the shop and they've been great, but the problem is This is this is a single-car garage. That is the extent the real factory is here and I've had two things happen first of all The shop is so small to quote bugs bunny. Um I have to go outside to change my mind So there's no place there's no place to put anybody in here and when I've had people help they're out on the driveway and um And that's great in the summertime and I've had times when I've had okay. This is great Thanks for coming to help, you know, that was 10 hours And then I go to look and it's like Oh my god Everything that this guy just put together was put together with the wrong size washer and so Generally speaking, um, I spend more time helping the people that are here helping me than they spend helping me So I've just resigned myself to the fact that I've just come to terms with The limitations of what I do and how I do it and and I'm okay with that and the people who sell my product um They're on board and they understand that that I'm not trying to be The next mass production and I'm not at at a period of my life and will never be Where I'm going to go out and get a big facility and start having a monthly nut to crack and I'm not Yeah, yeah I've tried to get an intern for this stuff because this is very good for like media people in school Or like even business It's like let's work on growing youtube to make more money or something And one kid dropped out of college another kid stopped answering someone else was just like really really they just didn't show up And it's just like man, it's hard. No one cares about your thing as much as you do and uh Well, hey, I and and it's my turn to um to give you kudos because um, I listen to your I listen to what you're doing. I'm like, I'm paying attention But I do and I think what you're doing is um I don't Think that oral history Is appreciated. I know that um, I've done something similar like this with with pas And um, I think moving forward after I'm gone That this is This is really important work that you're doing. So I hope thank you continue to do it and I hope it continues to you know develop and and And go through refinements because um, it it matters and that's why I'm here doing it. Thank you I'm I'm talking about me is the most boring thing in the world I think people like to hear what you have to say because again you you have kind of a uh a personality where I think people trust You're gonna speak your mind. Um, and I you know, I I appreciate you saying that very much I mean, this is almost 150 episodes in and um, and on that note I will say that uh people listening to this should go back Uh There's kind of a george way series that you did one on the the history of george way Uh rob cook. I believe has about two episodes that kind of fill in and supplement Um some more information to really I think it's three episodes total that like really cover the history of george way And the best way I can tell people to find them is Drumhistorypodcast.com on the episodes thing. There's a little search button and if you type in george It'll like search the context of the you know, the description and then you'll find those three episodes Yeah, um pretty easily there, but I I appreciate that Ron. That means a lot coming from you And you've and you've had Jim catalog the catalana one, right? Yes. Yep. He's he's a national treasure Yeah, and he he's the nicest guy in the world too and he sends me messages Frequently that I'll just say like hey, I loved this episode by the way, uh, which We're we're all uh at a point I mean the podcast has been growing and it's been successful, which is awesome But you're we're humans and you're not impervious to someone saying hey good job. Keep it up kid That's always nice no matter how long you've been doing it And I'm sure you feel the same way of someone saying hey ron these look great. You're doing a good thing keep going Um, yeah, people like you know what and I'm sure you appreciate this as much as I love the compliments um They're they they only do one they only serve my ego which is pretty tiny and insignificant But it's it's the it's the you know, I really like what you're doing, but And I'm that makes my ears go okay, but what yeah, tell me because because I can't use Um, I can't use the positive feedback other than other than to go. Okay. I'm doing the right thing here Sure, but it's the I'd like to see this or have you ever thought of this and and 90 of the time I'm like, yeah, I've been down that road. I've seen it, but gosh, there's it's nice when someone actually Gives you something that you go. You know what? Um Damn, you're right. Yeah honest feedback of Yeah, constructive constructive. Yeah criticism is awesome. It's it's so underrated and people You know, especially now on the internet they just take You know, I guess in the context of this conversation. I've I've really tried to give a lot of constructive useful See, I'm trying to help you. Yeah, just want to help you like Yeah, no, but I I also think that in in this world, which again, we're all What kind of connects all of us with drum builder drum brand podcast now youtube is we all use social media to expand and and and be the face of our brand And uh, I've learned a lot doing that and I got to tell you you can look at brands Who do things What you can sit what I would consider, you know, what I like and what I consider right and I see other people doing something And you're always got to be doing your homework of like, oh, jeez. I wouldn't have done that or oh, I like how ron does the simplified Just very beautiful pictures the attention to detail I think in everything you're just we're all doing our homework all the time scanning seeing things And then and then applying it to ourselves, but it's never copying really It's just no, of course not. No, it's I mean You know, what's that saying originality is the art of concealing your sources I I buy into that in on a certain level, but at the same time, um You know, I've certainly been inspired by things that have come before and have thought, you know, like The advent of this new, you know, wood metal hoop is a great example It's like, well, you know, those hoops were done before in various iterations Ray Ott came along and he did his wood hoop version, which was Fantastic, but also had some problems and I went You know, I I actually did a different version of that First and then finally made my way back to the to that sort of quote high-to-hoop version that he had done and sometimes It just depends, I guess, you know, like literal, uh Literal interpretations are are not a big fan of that stuff. But yeah, if you grow in your own funk And I or I've had something to do with it. That's great Yeah, which that's cool. And I mean, yeah, it's easy to feel For the people if you're in your shoes or you see someone coming along who's kind of competition It's easy to feel a little like oh geez, but it's better to We're all in the community. It's better to work together But if someone's blatantly copying or doing something wrong, then that's the drum community usually jumps all over that and Yeah, we'll kind of speak out But so on that note Ron the end the kind of you know Where we're at now is when can people like expect to be seeing these and are you going to be like, you know, Chicago drum show I imagine you'll probably have something there Yeah, I'm like I said the the only piece that I'm waiting for now is the the badges and I imagine that those are going to be arriving you know within the next few weeks and I'll be bringing at least a gold sparkle and a solar sparkle with me They will be pre-production prototypes of this model and this iteration like we've you know Made some some priors, but but these are going to be the ones that really sort of People are going to be able to to judge it on and then um, you know as as we sit here the the first run of 100 Um After the after the pre-production ones that's being made right now And uh, and I don't mind sharing it. It's probably a best time this founders model. We're doing, um You know five and a half six and a half and eight inch depths and we're doing three finishes silver sparkle gold sparkle and copper sparkle And those that will be a limited edition run and we'll be doing uh, or I'll be doing both eight and ten long versions because Hmm I like eight lugs and some people like 10 and I figured you know, why not? We'll just mix it up a little bit and Yeah, create and create some diversity and some collectability So anytime I'll I'll be taking my usual You know mid-summer break and going back to the farm. So I'll be putting out as much product as I can before I leave And then you know, I get back in september. That's when the big push will be on and that's when you're going to start to see Some really really cool stuff not the least of which and I'm happy to say this, you know, there's some There's a new fiberglass hoop design that's in development. Oh, wow And that I've always wanted to happen and there is um Uh a hybrid Viber fibed model In development and I may actually even have that at the chicago show I just think that there was um a lot of great ideas and a lot of potential You know left you know I would have loved to have seen what michael would have done. Oh, by the way, I want to mention this just out of time The problem that michael faced when he He got a big big squeeze that really impacted and that's why he ended up Closing the business. It wasn't that miles don't work make it. We're making great drums or anything like that not to the contrary the problem was is that they were expensive to make at the time that he was making them and He got hit when the canadian government decided that they were going to basically remove tariffs and duties on imported drum kits and so Anybody knows right around that time. There was a huge influx in the in the early 80s of You know the max went in the pearl and the baxter and all of the You know and that hit that hit a lot of companies. Um, and That's sure that was the uh That was the meteorite that hit planet uh milestone and made it and brought and Brought it into the dinosaurs. Yeah Well, that's that's so many brands though. I mean that's like I mean no one really saw that coming until boom all the like japanese brands just it Wow And in the time, you know in the 30 40 years since since he stopped making drums Things have changed and and industry has adapted and we all know how it works now You know, I mean we we all get our metal parts 99 of them are made over in taiwan and there's a reason for that Is um And it's not because they work for 50 cents an hour. It's because they're good at doing it Yeah, I remember you saying that in your episode about there's a uh the previous george way episode about there's a Misconception about taiwan or be ipping this dirt sheet place to do stuff I mean you said their state-of-the-art factories and passionate workers and it's just a more affordable way to Get things though from from as opposed to manufacturing not even affordable. It's amazing quality. Yeah, it's amazing quality Yeah, you know, I mean, hey, I I could get I could get that lug done here But if you want $40 a lug My god, you know think that's your cost. It's like, okay, so that means I got to sell one lug for $80 And I'm gonna put 10 of these on a drum. It's like it's just insane. It's not doable. I mean, it's not possible It's not viable. It's not viable. Yeah Yeah, cool. Well run. Why don't you tell people The best way to keep up with you. I imagine social media or through a website Where do you want to direct people to keep up with milestone or you know, george way or denet in general? I've I've you know, just Right now, I guess the best way is on instagram It's under denet classic drums and that's where I post, you know, all the george way and milestone stuff and Just sort of ported all through that my personal Facebook page ron denet And of course, which has its limitations, but I've also created a milestone percussion Facebook page and both the domains milestone Milestone percussion.ca.com. Those are registered and I'm working on the website God, I got so much to do The website alone can be so time consuming. It's unbelievable. Yeah, I'm trying to get someone to do it It's like, oh my god, is there is or any good web developers out there really want to do it Please send me an email because a friend made mine for free I recorded I worked on his album at work And he liked what I was doing and just designed the whole website for me and I'm not touching it ever again It's so time consuming and it was free. So it's unbelievable. I paid a guy a thousand dollars to redo the denet one Yeah, it was six months ago and it's like Yeah, I have the prod It's like, you know, it's It's it's just that's why my website is so dated, but you know, I'm fortunate that the you know, the dealers that I work with Um, that's their job to stay on top of that a little bit. Um, and Yeah Now in facebook is a great resource for this, you know, social media has its ups and downs but for finding information about a company And I'll put the link to all that in the description. Um, but So Ron, uh, we talked about doing a little patreon bonus episode, which we'll do after we finish this But I'd like to talk to you After we wrap up this one about maybe tips that you have Four people who are builders who are starting a drum brand who are working with maybe shops I just think someone like you has a lot of experience and can maybe Give you know five or ten minutes of just like your like this is some mistakes that I've made. This is some things that I've learned Uh for drum builders If anybody's listening all you drum builders and anybody who Might want to do that. I'm going to give away all my secrets You got to pay two bucks a month to sign up on the patreon thing. I'm going to I'm going to say everything I have the book right here That's great all the dirty secrets. It'd be great All right, so Yeah, if anyone wants to hear all of Ron's dirty secrets, uh, go to drumhistorypodcast.com There's a patreon button there. You can join up. Um, so Yeah, Ron, again, thank you so much for doing this and taking the time to uh, to join me on really short notice When we kind of set this up a couple days ago. Um, so Thank you for being here Ron. Thanks for everyone for listening And I can't wait to see what you do with milestone and uh where you take it in the future Yep, you're gonna love it