 So first of all, why should you trust me? I'm the founder and CCO of juicer.io. juicer.io is a social media aggregator, an embeddable social media aggregator. So what the hell is a social media aggregator? Essentially what juicer allows you to do is to connect all of your brands or your personal social media accounts, and it will automatically pull in any new posts that you have. And you give you a little snippet, a code snippet you can put in your website. So it'll display all of these posts in a beautiful feed. So here's an example. This is actually from thegoldenglobes.com. I don't know if you guys know what the Golden Globes is, but it's like sort of like a crappier version of the Oscars in the US. But it's still very popular. And actually this feed itself had about 20 million views over a two day period. But as you can see, there's different social media types. You've got Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, et cetera. So juicer makes it really easy to connect all these accounts and embed them into a website. It's also oftentimes used in live events and in concerts with hashtags so people can see a sort of aggregated feed anywhere you are and participate in a conversation and have everyone see it. So firstly, why would you want to start your own business at all? As William Wallace Best said, freedom is the number one and most obvious reason to start your own business. For a couple of examples, I spent the last two months of the last six living in Los Angeles where I live. The other four months I spent traveling around the world. I never set an alarm. I get to work whenever the hell I feel like it. And I get to live wherever I want as well. Secondly, also pretty obvious, is that the amount of effort you put in is linked to your pay. At a full-time job, there's no incentive to work to the best of your ability, necessarily, apart from worried about getting fired. So generally, you will work to the level that it'll keep you from getting fired, but there's no incentive to go above and beyond. Also, your salary is significantly less than the value you provide your employer. And so what this means is that you are a good deal for your employer. You cost less than you are bringing in for the company. And this is especially true for developers who can easily earn the business they work for, millions of dollars, and I'm willing to bet that your salary isn't millions of dollars. Finally, no one's ever gotten rich working for somebody else. Not that being rich is important, and it's certainly nice, but it's certainly nice to realize that your earning potential is limitless compared to the 5% yearly raise you can hope for at your job, or a 10% raise you can hope for from switching jobs. Obviously, there's a few guys in finance and that sort of thing who make over a million dollars a year, but most developers don't. So firstly, I'm gonna talk about my history prior to Juicer just so you can guys can get an idea of what led me to starting Juicer. So like I said earlier, I have a degree in microbiology and I started programming because I wanted to build a product and I couldn't convince anyone else to do it for me and I was a college student, so I didn't have any money to pay anyone. So I got turned on the rails and I built the products. Well, really what I did was I slowly learned how to program, built it in rails, didn't really know what I was doing, finished it, threw it all out, started over, built it a lot better, and then sort of launched it a little bit, sent it to some of my friends and I think I got maybe about a hundred people to sign up for it. But what that led to was one of the people who signed up was somebody I didn't know and he said, hey, I like the site you built, could you build me a site as well? And I have $5,000 to pay you with. At the time I said, well, yeah, sure, but inside I was screaming because no one had ever offered me $5,000 for anything in my life at that point. And so I built the guy, his site, and then after that somebody else contacted me and slowly but surely it was turned into a lucrative or somewhat lucrative side career as a freelancer. So I started freelancing in my free time. I had a full-time job this whole time as well and just building sites when I could or when people wanted me to. Started doing a little more consulting work, a little bit more serious sort of freelancing I guess. And then whenever I had free time I would build random various products in my whatever sort of idea that came to my head. So the rest of this talk I guess is gonna be structured with sort of, I'm just gonna talk about what led to Juicer, where did I come up with the idea and how did I build it and how did I promote it and how did we get to the point where we're at today. And I'll talk about the point we're at today too at some point as well. So the first thing you just do when starting your own business is to come up with an idea and this is arguably the hardest thing of the whole process coming up with an idea. So the way Juicer worked was I had a string of freelance clients for a long time who asked me to put a social media feed on their website. They wanted to aggregate all of their different social media accounts and put them on the website. So the first time a client asked me to do this I Googled social media feed and I found a service that did this already and I said great, I don't have to build this myself. Somebody else can do it. So I found a service and a service is called Tint and they charge $10 a month to put a social media feed on your website. So I got the clients to sign up for it and they did and we put on a website and it was great and I had clients after client after client would ask me for social media feed on their website. So I always brought them back to Tint and said let's go to Tint, Tint, Tint, it's $10 a month, it's great. And then in about halfway through 2014 I had a freelance client who said hey, I want a social media feed on my website and I said great, let's go to Tint. And I went to Tint, I probably hadn't been there in about six months or so and I found that they had raised their prices from $10 a month to $250 a month. I should mention too, they've since raised their prices to $500 a month and they may have raised it even higher at this point. So the client obviously said yeah, we can't pay for that, we're not gonna pay that much, just have a social media feed on our website, but can you build it for us? And all I built went off of my head. I said not only I can build this, but what I'm gonna do instead is I'm gonna build a service and you guys just sign up for it. So that's sort of where juicer came from and I had my first client before I even wrote a single line of code. So now I'm gonna talk about a couple of different ways, a couple of different ways you can come up with ideas, hopefully. The first and most obvious is to solve your own problem. And so you guys are all developers and you've probably seen a myriad of developer tools out there that have sort of been started as products that will hopefully make your lives easier. So this is sort of the most common route taken with developers is solve a problem you have. And this is great because you're very close to the problem so you have a good idea of what the solution should be. The problem of course with this is that it's very crowded market, there's many, many developer tools and I think developers are especially used to being pitched sort of startup ideas and product ideas and we're a little bit numb to it. The second way to do this is to solve a problem for others. So what I mean by this is somebody who has a problem that's not a problem that you share. So for example, maybe you decide you wanna build a restaurant reservation management tool. You guys presumably don't own restaurants so this isn't a problem that you have specifically. Which can be great because you can really sort of tap into markets that don't typically get the sort of attention that often times like developers do. But of course the problem with this is that you are further away from the actual problem. And the only way to really get to the core of what the problem is that you're trying to solve is to talk to your customers. And oftentimes what the customers think they want and what they actually want are very different. And they oftentimes have trouble communicating that. And thirdly, which is sort of the route I took for juicer is to solve a problem for someone you know. So I had many, many clients who all wanted social media feeds and so I knew that this was a market that existed because somebody out there needed it, multiple people out there needed it. So at the very least I thought I could sell this to other developers who have the same problems idea is that their clients are asking you for social media feeds for their website but they can't pay $500 a month to do so. So when you come up with an idea I think it's very important to start small. And what I'm talking about here is start with a small idea. So you want to build something that only a few people need but those people really need it. So I didn't build a social media aggregator because I thought everyone in the world needs a social media aggregator but there are certain businesses that would like to include something like that on their website and so I thought I would build something like that for them because I know there's lots of businesses out there that have this need but they don't have $500 a month to throw at the problem. So I mean, so the next point I'll make is that it's something to make, it's better to make something that a few people love than a lot of people like. So what I mean by this is sort of the same thing I was talking about before is focus on a niche and a small niche is good and it seems counterintuitive because when you focus on a niche it doesn't really seem like there's anywhere to grow but I'll remind you that Microsoft started by creating a basic interpreter for the all-terra computer in the 70s so I'm looking at Microsoft now and they started with an extreme niche. The next thing when coming up with an idea is to not worry about competitors and I think the normal reaction when you see somebody else is already doing an idea that you have is not to bother. I think it's very important to ignore this feeling. Competitors mean a couple of things. Competitors mean that there is a market already so that if somebody's doing this already it means that there's a need for this out in the world. Apple isn't the first company to ever make a computer by any means but they did the best and they're arguably the most successful computer company in the world. And juicers started off with just a single competitor which was Tint but it turns out there's a lot of companies out there that do what juicer does like way more than you'd think. There's gotta be 50 plus in the world and if I'd known that when I first started I probably would have been extremely discouraged but luckily I was pretty lazy and didn't do very much research. So but if I had it's entirely possible that I wouldn't have bothered but I'll tell you what, it doesn't matter because there are a lot of competitors out there but juicers do and just fine. Once you come up with an idea I think it's very important that you name it and this seems very counterintuitive as well but there's a few reasons you wanna do this. One is because when you come up with a name for your product it makes it real. It makes it more real in your mind and it starts taking it a little bit more seriously. Number two, when we get to the next step which is build it you're gonna be typing that name a lot when you program it. So it's good just so you don't have to go do some search and replace it if you decide to change your name later. And finally it's good to have a domain name already purchased that way when you launch you can launch it immediately and you don't have to sort of waffle over what we're gonna name in or what domain are we gonna get. So I think it's really important to sort of do these these relatively simple tasks first before you write a single line of code. So the next step and the part that you guys will excel at is build it. So I should note here that I'm not an especially good developer but what I am good at is sort of starting a project from scratch and seeing it through to some sort of deployable state. I'm not gonna talk too much about how to actually program it because it's very highly dependent but if you guys don't have a lot of practice sort of starting a project from scratch and getting it to a deployable state then I highly recommend just giving it a shot and trying it out because I know a lot of you guys work for pretty big companies and you probably have very specific tasks that you work on and you don't necessarily get to work on the whole application. So the first thing I'll say about building it is start small again. You'll notice I'm saying start small quite a bit and what you're building here is the smallest possible product and you've probably heard the term before MVP which stands for minimum viable product and what that is is a product that provides the most smallest atomic unit of usefulness and obviously defining that is very hard to do depending on what it is you're trying to build but I think it's really, really important to keep it as small as possible and so when I built Juicer I built it in Rails and I built it using JavaScript and I knew how to do a couple of things because I had a client telling me specifically what I needed to do and I needed to have Facebook, Twitter and Instagram integrations and I needed to be able to embed in their website. That's all the client cared about but then I needed it to do a few more things so that the client could then sign up for it so it had to have a web interface and had to have authentication and it had to have a stripe integration so that I could accept payment for my customers and that's it. That was all I did. Next thing I'll recommend is to design it yourself and I know this may be a horrifying thought to some of you but I promise you it's not too bad. You all learn how to be developers so I can assure you you can all learn how to be designers as well. The first, I'll give you a couple of recommendations when it comes to designing things but my number one thing is don't bother with Photoshop. Just design it in the browser using CSS. If you guys don't know CSS you can also learn that very quickly and easily. Use a couple basic design concepts like white space and alignment. I won't go into too much detail about how to design something well because I don't know honestly but you can make something look decent enough. And this is really important I think to design it yourself because it'll really get you into the nitty gritty of how it should work and what's the ideal user flow and how the site should work overall and it'll really help you connect to the user, your customer hopefully and give you a sense of what they have to do to get your service to work. The next thing I'll say when building it is to set a deadline. I think this is really important because it's really easy to keep working and adding features and doing more and more and really putting out the concept of launching because I don't know about you guys but as developers the thing I'm most comfortable doing is programming and all that other stuff is not programming and the more I can keep programming the better in my mind. So for a few general rules of thumb I'll say if you have full time to dedicate to your business that you're starting give yourselves two weeks to get to MVP point and that sounds like an insanely short period of time. And if you don't, if you have a full time job and you're gonna do this in your free time give yourselves four weeks. Anything else after that throw it out. If you can't do it in that time it's not important for the MVP and this will really help you focus and sort of lean your product down to exactly what it needs to be. So the next step after you build it is to launch it and I highly recommend launching it as soon as possible. You wanna get this thing out in front of users and have users using it or not using it. Get an idea of what your user base how your user base is going to respond to it if they are at all. So I'll talk a little bit about how I launched user. So I originally launched user and I got my one client to sign up and I integrated it in their site pretty quickly and then I decided I wanted to promote it a little bit more. So I went to Reddit and I went on to two subreddits because the first thing I did is I thought about who are my clients and who are my customers. And in my mind, the number one client was other web developers like me, other consultants or freelancers or people who work at companies who have been tasked with adding a social media feed to a client's website. And number two was social media marketers themselves. So go directly straight to the source. So I went on Reddit and I found two subreddits that are exactly this, our web dev and our social media. And so from there, somebody found the site, they liked it and they posted it to Product Hunt. And I didn't know what Product Hunt was at the time, this is mid 2014, so I think they had just launched. So I remember somebody telling me it was on Product Hunt and I was like, okay, and they kind of told me like it was a really big deal and I remember saying, okay, I don't know what that is exactly. But Product Hunt actually turned out to be really great. So hopefully I can give you a few sort of general rules of thumb that I've learned from this. But the most important thing I think is to figure out who your customer is and where they are. And this sort of all comes, it's really kind of all part of step one, which is coming up with an idea, but it's really knowing or at least trying to formulate in your head who you think your customer is. And then figuring out where they are. So like I said, Reddit is a great place for that because there's a subreddit for basically every person or every type of person or every career. So chances are you'll be able to find a subreddit that pertains to your customer base. Number two is Hacker News, news.lycomandeter.com, which is really great if you're building a sort of programmer-centric tool. But be careful because they can be pretty harsh and negative and it's kind of scary. Number three is Product Hunt, like I said. It's probably the best in terms of getting new users because everyone who gets a product on newsletters are just really interested in new products of all kinds. But nowadays I think pretty sure there's a waiting list and it can be a little bit difficult to get on there, so the better way to get on there is to build a really good product. And finally, wherever your customer is. So like I said, the first thing you have to do is figure out where your customer is and then the next place is to put it there. So if your customer is not a person like us as developers and spend all day online, you're gonna have to go offline and find them and tell them about your business there. So conventions, they're a place of business, giving calls, emails, showing up in person. All of these things sound scary, but they're totally valid methods for getting customers. Step four, get some customers, like I said. So once I had launched Juicer, it had been on Product Hunt and Hacker News, or not on Hacker News and on Reddit. And it did pretty well. It had a couple of few days where I had a few hundred signups, I think. And after that, just growth basically all the way down to zero, maybe one user a day. So I realized that I couldn't be continually launching it on all these sites, so I had to come up with a more solid way of growing our customer base. So I did so by focusing on a few things. And some of these are gonna be a little counterintuitive because I think a lot of the time when you hear about growth hacking and growing a company, you sort of get the startup mentality, which is grow, grow, grow as fast as possible. You wanna do the hockey stick, right? And I didn't do that with Juicer. We grew slowly but steadily. So the first thing we did was we focused on SEO. And for those who don't know, SEO is search engine optimization. So making yourself show up higher on Google, essentially. And I knew nothing about SEO. I knew that it was a thing, but I had no idea how to do it. So the first thing I did was Google a lot of stuff about how to get better at SEO. And I've included a lot of the more useful links that I found in the show notes. But essentially the number one thing is you want to focus on keywords and get your site to be really, really fast. And so optimization is great and that's a whole topic into itself. So I won't really talk about it, but you wanna make your site super, super fast. And then secondly, sort of like coming up with an idea and coming up with a customer base is you wanna focus on, you want to determine what search results you wanna show up in. So what are your keywords that you're going after in Google? And a great way to do this is to use the Google AdWords keyword tool. And essentially what this does is allows you, typically you use it to purchase Google AdWords which show up for certain search results, but it does two things that are really important that are relevant to SEO. Is it'll tell you the competition of that combination of keywords and it will tell you the search frequency. So it'll tell you how many times in a month those particular combinations of words get searched. So ideally what you want is a search term that is has low competition and high search frequency. Chances are you're not gonna be able to find this because they're very, very rare. What's better than in this case, like I said with the whole idea of starting small is you wanna find something that has both low competition and low search frequency. So if it's only a few people are searching for that a month, that's okay because those people probably desperately need what you're offering. Another thing to focus on is the concept of long tail keywords. And what this is is like very long and complex and specific strings of characters for very detailed search results. They're very specific. So a great example for juicer was how to embed a social media feed in a Shopify site. There's probably 20 people a month that search for that, but those 20 people desperately want what we're offering. So we sort of come up with a couple combinations of things like that where various different sites and just sort of think about what I would search if I was a different customer type. And so my one really genius thought when it comes to SEO, and the thing I think that made SEO work more for us than anything else was by offering a free plan. And I didn't really mention it before, but juicer is a SaaS business, so software is a service. So essentially what that means is that our customers, our paying customers pay a monthly fee and they get to use our product indefinitely as long as they keep paying. But there's also a free tier, so it's got more limited functionality but allows you to sign up and test it out and it's free forever. So a lot of people can't afford to spend anything on this service, but they still want a social media feed on their site. And we allow them to do so. The one caveat is that it has juicer branding in it. And so this was sort of my genius sort of double-edged SEO insight is that not only is signing up for a paid account and incentive to get rid of the juicer branding out of your feed, but that juicer branding also is links on other people's sites that are linking back to juicer. And each one of those increases sort of our SEO juice. So obviously that's not gonna work for every type of business, but I think there's something like that for just about every product that some sort of hack or sort of light bulb insight that everyone can have. So the next thing I focused on was content marketing. And content marketing is essentially writing blog posts. And essentially this is just a subset of SEO. And so like I said, a great blog post that I ended up writing was how to add a juicer social media feed to a Shopify site. You'll notice that the titles is how to add a juicer social media feed. So it turns out one of the keywords we went after was social media feed. So this is great for two reasons. One, because it increases your SEO juice as well. Anyone who searches for Shopify social media feed is gonna find us. And two is because it actually teaches something to users and it's useful to someone who finds it will then actually be able to follow along do what you say and then the problem is solved and they're happy. And you always wanna make your customers happy. The one sort of my one sort of genius insight as well with content marketing was as juicer, I knew virtually nothing about social media marketing. So and we were a company that that's what we do is we provided a tool for social media marketing. So it was a little embarrassing to have a Twitter account that had 50 followers or maybe even less. So I sort of wrote a series of blog posts about our journey into social media marketing and sort of like what I learned and what I tried and what worked and didn't work. And it ended up working out really well because people who are searching for like, how do I grow my Twitter followers will then come to us, they would learn something about that. And then as well, oh by the way, juicer will help you with this too. So it's sort of like, it was like a, another sort of two pronged approach to growing our customer base. The next thing we did was we built a plugin or an add-on and the first plugin that we built was for WordPress. And so WordPress is, for those who don't know, you probably all know is like a crappy PHP framework, blog framework for your site. So I had to write PHP code, which was nightmarish, but it ended up being great because for a few reasons, because one, we could submit it to the WordPress plugin directory immediately and the WordPress plugin directory is super easy to optimize the search. You essentially just put a list of all the words you wanna show up for and then you just immediately show up in search for those. So anyone who's using WordPress, oftentimes when they install a plugin, they don't go to Google, they just go directly to the WordPress directory and they'll search from there. So basically overnight, we were showing up at the top of the WordPress plugin directory, which was great. And it's really great because WordPress, anyone who's looking in the WordPress plugin directory is building a site. So those are your also customers right there, like people who need to add this to the site that they're building right now. And the last thing I'll recommend, and I didn't have to do this because my business is online only, but you wanna hit the street. If your customers aren't online, you're gonna have to go talk to them in real life. Speaking of talking to your customers, step number five is to talk to your customer. So you've built a product, you've launched it, and you've taken some steps towards getting, growing your user base. So when we first started Juicer, obviously we didn't have very many customers. We had a few people that signed up here and there. But we almost immediately after launch put up a contact page and an email address on the site. And I don't think for the first couple of weeks, anyone contacted us really. But I could sort of observe how people were using the site, people that weren't my family and friends and just signed up to be nice. And I would reach out and talk to them and see what they thought about it, to sort of email them and see if they had any thoughts one way or another about Juicer. Most people didn't respond to me, but if you did and if you gave me really great insights. And so during the same time, people started slowly trickling in. The SEO, SEO takes a long time to take effect. I would say on a magnitude of three to four months before we probably got any users from a Google search. And we got a few more from WordPress because that happened quite a bit more quickly. But still I got to the point where once a week I would get an email from a customer. And all of a sudden twice a week I was getting an email from a customer. And then once a day I was getting an email from a customer. And so I handled a lot of customer service myself. So slowly but surely people started emailing us more and more and more. And it got to the point where I was getting a bunch of emails a day. And I think it's really important, especially as the person who built the site, that you handle the customer service yourself. Don't have anyone else to do it for you. And this is for a few reasons. One, because you'll really sort of keep your finger on the pulse of your site. You'll know what your customers are using it for, what problems they're having. They'll definitely tell you about any bugs they have. And you'll really get an idea of what they wish the product could do because it'll ask you, hey, can I do this? So I think when you're doing customer service it's really important at first to be unscalable. So customers will ask you, hey, can your site do this? Or hey, I wish it did this. And what I'd recommend doing, at least at first, is do all of it. So if they say, hey, can it do this? Yep, or not the second, but now it does. And so this will teach you sort of like a big pain that your customers have to go through. So do it as manually as possible. I wouldn't recommend doing this, like building out a feature immediately. So do whatever it is your customers ask you to do and do it super manually. And you wanna do this for a few reasons. One, because you don't wanna waste your time building something that only one customer needs. And two, because if not one customer needs it you'll get several people asking you to do it and a bunch of people asking you to do it and eventually you'll get really sick of doing it. And so this will give you a really good idea of what it is your customers have to go through every time they're doing whatever tasks they wish your product did. And two, that means it's a really good feature idea for your product and you should probably add it to your site, if at the very least, so you don't have to do it anymore yourself. But this, if you get really sick of having to do something that a customer's asking you to do, that's a really good sign that it should be in your product. And so this is, that's where improving your product comes from, so you do customer service enough and you'll get a really good idea of what it is your product needs to have. So step number six is to repeat step five. And if you guys remember that, it's customer service. Talk to your customers. So hopefully what's happening here is that people will sign up and they'll say, hey, I wish I did this or hey, why doesn't it do this? And they'll keep asking you the same thing over and over and you'll be really sick of it and then you'll build it and then people will stop asking you that but then they'll start asking you about something else. Hey, I wish I did this, hey, I wish I did that. And just keep doing this over and over again. And so eventually you'll reach a point which is known as product market fit which is knowing that whatever it is you're building has found its niche in the greater economic realm. So you're gonna have to keep repeating this for basically forever though. Juicer is founded about two years ago and I'm still repeating step five every day. Step number seven, step number seven. If you're the first to succeed, try try again. So Juicer is definitely not the first product ever built. I'd say it's somewhere around the seventh sort of full product that I've built on my own and it's definitely the first one I would consider to be successful by any sense of the word. So don't get it hardened, disheartened if what you tried doesn't work. Come up with something else and try again. And so those are the sort of main first seven steps I think that it takes to build a product and I kind of took a really wide brush strokes there I think but I just got a few more tips here for you and so the first one is create your business in your free time. I know I kind of gave a bad rap to working a full-time job earlier but I definitely don't recommend quitting your job immediately and going out and starting a business. Instead create a business in your free time and this is really easy if you're young and single and don't have kids but if you are I highly recommend if you are all those things I highly recommend building in your free time. Number two is to grow slow so there's no rush and there's a few reasons to grow slow. And one is it'll allow you to become the master of your problem domain so if you're like me you start social media aggregation business and you don't know anything about social media or aggregation or anything of that nature and by growing slow I was able to really sort of understand how what it is our customers are doing and why they want this service. Number two is it'll allow you to really get to know your customers and the more you get to know your customers provided you're a good person and you probably are the more your customers will like you and the more your customers like you the more people will sign up for your service. So thirdly another reason to grow slow is it'll allow you to scale your infrastructure without having to hire people. And so the nice thing about growing slow is that you can do it yourself and so this means you don't have to raise money you know be a real startup which means the stakes are lower means it's less stressful and it means that no one is your boss still which to me is kind of the whole point. So the really nice thing about being developers and we're all developers here is that the main reason that you raise money is to hire people generally and the first person you hire is a developer you don't have to do that. So besides that you don't have to worry about actually wasting your time raising money talking to your investors keeping them updated about what it is you're working on you get to spend all of your time working on your product. Another tip is to find a partner so this is for a few reasons I generally recommend a non-technical partner but a technical partner is great as well and they let you do a few things so there's someone to bounce ideas off of which is really great just to have someone to talk about it because my girlfriend gets really sick of me talking about juicer all the time. It's someone to motivate you when you're not feeling motivated so I know that there were certain points during juicer especially right after we launched where if I didn't have a partner I probably would have just given up because it seemed like an insurmountable problem to get customers but I had a partner and I didn't want to let him down so I kept working on it and it paid off. And finally the greatest part about having a partner is it's someone to do all the things you don't want to do. So a lot of this means like getting a bank account and setting up a proper corporate structure or talking to lawyers or really doing anything you don't want to do which is great. So juicer today, juicer's been around for almost two years. When I first started we had one customer and one paying customer so we had 100% conversion rate and it's gone down quite a bit since then but now we have about 17,000 customers and 10% of them are paying and it's by far the best paying job I've ever had. I work an average of one to four hours on juicer per day depending on how much I'm building versus how much customer service I'm doing. And that's it, any questions? So the question is did we do any currency testing and the answer is yes we did. When we first started we had one price in mind which was TIN's old price which was $10 a month and actually the way it worked was a little bit different so when we first launched you got a 30 day trial and there was one type of paying account and it was $10 a month and I think it was like sort of unlimited everything you wanted updates every 10 minutes and nobody signed up and so one of the first things we did was actually introduce sort of like tiered pricing like having different pricing models and then offering the free version, free forever version and that was sort of like a combination of my SEO plan but also people like choice to a certain extent so we sort of had like a real cheap version and then like a more expensive that was and we sort of had to build more functionality to support the more expensive version. Well, that's a good question. The best timing to find a VC. Well, we haven't found any VC with Juicer. Well, people have actually reached out but we've specifically told them we're not raising money at least at this moment. So that's a good question. I think anytime if you need money anytime it's a good time to find a VC. Sooner rather than later oftentimes but I would generally say you want to at least validate your product at first. So you want to have built the least MVP and gotten some users signed up and ideally are showing sort of up into the right growth but unfortunately I'm not a master of raising VC capitals so I can tell you the best overall. Okay, so the question is two parts. It's one it's like what makes Juicer what made me think Juicer was gonna be so more successful or what makes Juicer more successful in my old products and then when did I know to give up on my old products? And so the first thing I'll say is that Juicer is the first product I've ever built where from the get go I sort of had an idea of how to monetize it. Everything else I've always built it's like I'll just build a cool thing and then people will sign up for it and then I'll be rich. But I never really had any plans so Juicer was the first one that was like an actual business from the beginning. And then number two is how did I know when to give up on my other products and I'll say that I didn't know. I didn't even really consciously give up on them. I just sort of stopped thinking about or slowly stopped thinking about them. And then of course the less attention I paid to them the less they did of any sort. So I think generally you can tell but for me it was sort of like I kind of thought at least when I first started doing the sort of thing that all I had to do was build it and they will come sort of thing. But building it is the easiest part and getting customers is the hard part. Well, there's a bunch of hard parts but that's one of the hard parts. And so I think a lot of the times I would just sort of build it, launch it, get out there and be like, all right, my job's done. I'll just let that thing grow. Obviously that's not the way to approach it. But I think you can tell. And certainly if you're not thinking about it anymore that's a good sign. But I couldn't tell you the ideal time. Yeah, so the question is since I don't have a CS degree and I don't work with any of the programmers what do I do when I need help or when I have questions or when I need to talk to someone about these sort of things? Well, I definitely think that getting a full-time job previously to this as a software engineer was one of my biggest sort of like learning experiences that really accelerated what I knew. And through those jobs I've had I have various friends that I can talk to and I have surprisingly a lot of friends who've sort of done similar things to me and they don't really work full-time anymore and have started their own businesses. So we'll get together and talk a lot on that sort of thing. I use Stack Overflow a lot even now when I have questions about how something should be done because like I said, I definitely don't know how to do everything. Do a lot of Googling. It also helps my girlfriends and developers so I can always bug her about things. I think that's all I got time for. Thanks everyone.