 system. That's what it is. That's exactly what it is. Looks like we're going live. I'm going to wait until I see it actually go live. Boom. There we go. It says you're live spelled correctly. Hello everyone and welcome back to For The Means the weekly show where we talk about predecessor over prime and ethereal and you know what any other third person mobas that might crop up. We might even cover them too. You never know. You never know. But this week we're going to talk about Kira has been in predecessor for about a week now we're going to talk about how you know is she strong like it did she affect the game. We're talking about Mekko being added in the over prime and other original intellectual property hero. Go to add a new section to FTM. We're going to talk about the differences between predecessor and over prime and see your camera the cameras at all. Yeah. I just typed it in chat because I thought it was me because I'm Oh God. Yeah. Streamer everybody. I don't know you guys take it away while I fix this shit. Well I mean I am the jelly niece. I am his friend and co-host on FTM because I have to say it because man who's apparently isn't going to introduce me anymore. But with us again we also have the Viking Jedi welcome back again Viking. I don't know why I'm waving but chat I am waving at you guys. Yes. Thank you for having us. We are working on the camera issues. They might be fixed already. It just hasn't popped up to live yet. But yeah. No I'm really excited this week. We've got some some good stuff to talk about especially when it comes to predecessor. Now that we have their first hero and we've all gotten a chance to play around with her. Get like a pretty good feel I think from the community as well as as far as like how she's fitting in the meta and I'm really excited to see you know how she develops further. And then of course Mako we really got a cool insight on on his but we won't obviously get to talk about him until next week's FTM but we can talk a little bit about him this week which I'm excited about. So good stuff. Good stuff. Good stuff. And as I was saying as I'm trying to order things I updated OBS. I should not have updated OBS. The new the new section that we're going to be adding in is going to be we're talking about predecessor over Prime and some of the differences between the two games in this week. I want to talk about the differences between how they handle interrupts because they are very different and how each game handles interrupts. And I don't know how to change my media source to something. It used to be I would just hit on like properties. Really I don't know if Mako is a him. I assumed a gender and I apologize. Mako is Mako 2023 bro. I don't know whatever it is Mako's Mako. How do I change my media source. I don't know. Give it give us a sec boys. We'll get we'll get the production parts sorted shortly. Mako is a Pokemon. I'm trying. I'm trying. I don't know what you're. Okay. All right. I'm good. We should be good guys. We're just a second channel old man in technology right like Nicole issues. Let's move on in the predecessor then finally. Jeez Louise. So predecessor for this week. Yeah. Kira got added in. Yay. I think what we said last week about Kira has been pretty much spot on in that in the hands of the right person and if they get ahead she's super strong. Otherwise she's just another carry. Yeah. I think that's pretty fair. I do think that I was vindicated in her off lane experience. I think that she has opportunities but in most matchups she's going to struggle on off lane. I think her best lane is going to be in the carry role with you know a good support. I do think a more aggressive support benefits her a lot being able to either get a hook in or stun or something like that to really set up her passive and her damage. But she's she's sneaky strong like she can all of a sudden she gets those passive stacks upon you and you're trying to disengage and run away and all of a sudden she hits you with that Q and you're you're gone. You're just dead because it does a lot of damage sneakily but I do think yeah exactly what you're describing me because I think she seems to be one of those champions that if she's focused and put behind she's really going to struggle. She's not as useful later on. Her real strength is by getting ahead in progressing her hyper carry. Now the other team is I think slow and finishing out the game. She can come back online later on and still be really strong. So there is a moment where she is kind of a ticking time bomb. I feel like because her ultimate late game even if you are ready for her to come in there can still have chunk you before you're able to CC her death because it's so strong late game. But really fun interesting champion. I think skill expressive is the best way to go about with it. But what about you Jelly you played her a lot this week. Let me answer you Suki real quick because I like to get this out whenever I ask it. I like to get it out of the way. Now we don't have any new news on console. They are working on console release. They all are working on it but we don't know how far along they are. So no new news this week. I'm sorry whenever I have new news that'll come out as a completely separate video that will let everybody know. So Jelly thoughts on Kira. I think she's probably slightly under tuned. Like I go back and forth. Yeah. Some games I'll play her and I'll be like yeah you know what she's fine. Like she's strong. Yes. But only in the right scenarios as she should be similar to Revenant. The Revenant probably a tad over tuned that when but when Revenant gets to the place that he wants to be super strong super good well utilized. Kira is very similar to that in that regard in that hyper carry nature of her. But then other times I when she isn't right in that niche because I feel like her niche is a little smaller than Revenant which is not in that niche. Then I'm like she just needs a little bit more to help. Right. Like I talked to them been talking to you guys all week about it like what if her dash got reset on a kill. What if her Q reset when it executed. I've had thoughts that what if her Q refunded the mana back when you use it if it killed the target that you queued. Right. Something to just keep her momentum going a little bit more forward because she almost behaved like an assassin. At once her cooldowns are down. She's kind of a sitting duck for a little while. Yeah. Very cool. That's a little weird because it's as a carry you think about her being basic attack based but her basic attacks are not really where she shines. It's more about her abilities and when her when she's on cooldown she's F. So it's a very weird thing. I wondered why you didn't say use K man goose. But that's fine. But yeah. I don't know. She's in a weird spot. She definitely needs a higher priority support. Then. So like Muriel not the best for her but Narbash Richter Decker are going to be a lot better because if you're able to keep somebody locked down for a second so she can just quickly rotate her kit through then you back up and retreat wait for those cooldowns and do it rinse and repeat. You'll do really really well. But the other thing is like you guys were saying is her three items spike. It doesn't matter if Kira's been behind the entire game. When she gets to that third item she will be a menace to anybody on the map. Yeah. She will walk up there right click dash ultimate queue and you know everyone's dead. It doesn't matter who you are. Doesn't matter anything that third item is where she's just going to pop off. You need to make sure that she doesn't get there and that your team is so far ahead when she does. That you're able to end the game anyway because if you don't she'll just come back. I think to that point too is I mean she's probably one of the strongest one view ones in especially in the carry role. I think she can with items one view one almost anyone especially if it's a skill V skill match up. But the other thing is to is I think what's interesting about her and what I really like is that your team also needs to understand what she does and what she doesn't do as a carry and they need to play around her. There's every other carry it feels like for the most part they're self sufficient in a sense like and maybe it's also just because everybody's so familiar with what they can and can't do that it's just second nature to understand how to play around the carry. But she does things so differently than any other carry you have to. I think game playing as a team which is harder to do in a solo queue environment. But when we were trialed up it was a lot easier. I think especially jelly and I when we were doing dual lane together it was easier for us to kind of play around cooldowns and understand when you can go in and when you can't and all that fun stuff. I mean we still fucked it up sure. But I'm saying that like it does seem like she really really needs her team to be on the same page as her. So I think it in like you know all comms a 5v5 competitive mode she probably will be a lot more have a lot more carry potential. But again the enemy team also needs to be aware of what she can and can't do and be ready because she's very susceptible to CC. You blow her up she there's not much she can do. She she just dies. She's very very squishy. She uses her dash poorly. That's a dead Kira. Yeah. Like she every time if you see her dash at you and you know that she doesn't have the support to back it up. Just tear her down because she won't be able to do anything after that. Especially if she gets through her cooldowns. Mm hmm. I usually measure the efficacy of heroes by how afraid I am to encounter them in the jungle. metric. Yeah. So if I see a Kira in the jungle and I'm on like a main girl bellica I'm like oh fuck yeah free kill. You know it doesn't matter how far ahead she is or what she's been doing. I'm going to get that stuff. If I get the stun off if I do hit the stun she's dead. He's done for you. Whereas if I encounter a revenant in the jungle I'm scared. I'm kind of I'm like I don't know how this is going to go because if he ults me I'm rooted and then he's going to fucking two tap me and I'm dead. Yeah. Whereas Kira I don't I'm not afraid of that. I think that's exactly where I why I settle on the Kira is probably slightly undertuned side of things because we I said before that she's very she's almost like an assassin in the carry role and that she blows all of her cooldowns and then after she does that she's really not that scary. Yes she's got strong basic attacks like any carry late game that'll hurt but realistically her cooldowns are the things you want to fear. If you know that she blew through all of her cooldowns. Whatever. Right. And she her cooldowns don't aren't strong enough to warrant that kind of play. Right. Where when I think of a revenant. Yeah. He's similarly very cool down dependent and with his four shot basics depending on which basic he's on. Right. But like you said he can come up to you ults you Q you left click and you're dead instantaneously doesn't matter. And that's just late game. He doesn't have to be super fed. Right. That he can just do that. Kira can't do that. But she's just as cool down reliant if not more so than revenant is. Right. And so it's this weird ground that she kind of is trying to fill two roles but doesn't do either well. I think honestly the best in predecessor comparison is Feng Mao. Right. Where there's a lot of similarities of like rattling this line between being one character and being another. And then the itemization is not quite there to support that either. And so you just kind of end up in this weird spot where they're good sometimes. I've seen good Feng Mao's but I've also seen a lot of bad Feng Mao's. And so it's meh. I somebody in chat pointed it out and I think I think it was Jayman. Yeah. Jayman said she's a count as Carrie. And I think the count is to me felt more real because like the same thing like you can go up against the counters usually like fuck how do I even fight this chick like she's so freaking good and like you know. And then other times like OK we have I guess just a freaking melee minion count is walking around and useless. I don't think she's under tuned. I think that's the wrong word. I feel like she just the she needs some kind of shake up to keep her in line for early game. I think it's her early game is probably her worst. And I understand that she's maybe designed to be a bit more of a hyper carry. But with time to kill and snowballing in this game so high for other champions. You it just feels like OK well if she's your only threat late game we can blow her up so fast because we've won early game. And then all the rest of your team just sucks and we can just we just win. I just yeah I just don't know. But I also think that predecessor struggles with the bigger macro. And I think she suffers with with the macro being the way it is currently. She just doesn't offer the same amount of utility or kill threat unless she's able to get her full rotation off. If you let her get her full ultimate off and all that other stuff. Sure she's going to destroy people. But anybody who like looks at her and goes oh I just have to hit her with any of my CC and she's basically done for it's it's yeah. So that's why I feel like they just need to change where her power is placed. I don't have any exact solution for that. But I feel like that's the only thing I could think of that would tune her correctly because I don't think she's under tuned. She's just really skill reliant and and and I mean that in her skills and you as the player skills like and that's really difficult to navigate especially in this other environment. Yeah July I agree. Like I said itemization itemization isn't there to benefit her kit style. Yeah that's what a good right. And similar to Feng Mao. Feng Mao they nerfed bruiser items because Feng Mao was utilizing them too well and they nerfed Feng Mao accordingly as well. Right. Countess too. And then they wanted to be an assassin but assassin items don't really fit his kit. And so it's this weird middle ground that he has to be in and I feel like Kira is almost identical to that just in the carry side of the items. I think she's good. She just she's not under tuned. She's not ever tuned. She's just good. She's just a good addition to the game. She's just a good carry. I think we expected a little more from an original IP hero. We expected her to kind of burst on the scene and shake everything up. But no I think it's also fine that they just introduced a just good well balanced hero into the game. Like I think she's just fine. I don't think she's the best carry out there right now. She's not the worst. And I think this is just a week. I think after a month people will have nailed down builds for her and have adjusted to how she plays a little better. You'll have people that main her that will be just absolutely ferocious with her. So maybe I will be scared after a month. But right now and then we have to take that in consideration too. There's a lot of people that don't normally play carry are playing Kira right now. And they're playing her wherever the fuck they want to just so that they could play her. So you got to take that into account too. That's one reason that she's probably not as scary as she might be here in about a month when the hardcore ADCs are the only ones that are really playing her again. Yeah. I agree. I do think itemization is a big part of it. And I don't think any of the 80 carries in red are bad into themselves. What's kind of interesting to me about Fred 80 carries is they're all situationally strong and situationally weak. And and that's it is there's like other than Revenant I feel like who has the ability to kind of solo carry games on his own. I think all the other carries require still the team to play around them. Not that I think that Revenant doesn't but just to answer your question I don't think any of them are weak. They all just require different things from their team. And also I think are very all the carries are support heavy. They really need their support to facilitate them a lot which is exciting but also maybe not great if you're a carry where you want to feel like you can just do whatever you want every game. But now you really do need your support to help you. Murdoch is good. I think all of them are good honestly. I mean they're all I think they're all even the Sparrow was so annoyingly good in certain situations. I think a lot of people silence that it is anything else. Yeah. But a bad Drongo will use his silence incorrectly and a really good Drongo will make you want to freaking throw your keyboard out the window. Um let's move on from Kira let's talk about this event that they did they've got this event going on which I don't really know to me details about because I didn't I didn't give a shit. It's it's for Count us and Kira two heroes that I don't play. It's like Count us versus Kira you sign up for one team or the other and then whoever has the most kills at the end gets a new border or some shit. I don't think you need to line up. I think it's just just native to the native to the game. Okay. Thank you. I mean so I was I was paying attention to when this was announced and I still don't understand what's going on. Like and I think that right out of the gate. I think that shows the problem with this event is it was so it almost felt random that they were just like oh you know what it's Thursday after our original character came out let's do an event. Right. Like it was just weirdly broadcast. It was not talked about really prior to that. It wasn't put out well like what's like it just and even I saw this on the subreddit. I told you guys yesterday when we were playing Fred. I was like it's very rare that I go on the predecessor subreddit and see a universal post with everybody being like yeah this was bad. And that was one of the posts that I saw yesterday was about this event. Yeah. Was everyone kind of going like yeah this is a terrible event or I don't understand what's going on or yeah like the brand new character versus the one that you released three months ago who's going to win. Right. Like it's a lot of people were surprisingly upset about this event and probably a bit too much but it still showed that like clearly this is the mark from what everyone was trying to do. Fox felt like a fault announcement. He's not wrong. I mean it's a cool idea. I like that they're known events. I just did not particularly care about this one at all. I like I get I agree. I like the idea of an event. This event just didn't really hit the mark and this is the thing and I will say about at least they did something. I guess I don't know why so many people would be so upset about it like they have some kind of money on the line. Like that's the part that really gets me. It's so weird to hear what people will bitch and moan about and get like all up in arms about and put together Reddit posts and Twitter threads and start fights basically with the devs over something. It's like dude it's a four fun event that you do or do not have to participate in. Like there's literally no harm one way or the other. Like if you don't get if Countess doesn't win you don't get the Countess rewards. Right. Yeah. I think that's where it mainly comes from one. A border. The event doesn't make a ton of sense in just conceptually. We've got Kira who's an ADC and Countess who's not. Yeah. Right. And you're saying it's like Countess v. Kira and they're not even in the same lane. So it's not a versus thing. How does this make any sense of a lower wise thing I guess. I but they didn't give us lower. That's a whole other thing. That was going to be my point. They didn't even give it like a cinematic really playing up the lower between the two to me. If I were the guys doing this I probably would have made a for fun event of where you can only like pick those two champions in like an Aram style map or something like that. And you just have people duke it out for fun and whatever. Like to me it seems silly. That it's like just play games like normal but pick these two champions every game. So that way we can rack up kills because it just I don't know it just felt weird. I guess I would be pissed if they introduced a brand new IP mage and then pitted that mage against Bellica. I would want the bellica border and I would be kind of pissed off that they did bellica gives this brand new IP mage. You know what I mean. But yeah. And I think that I can see that I can see why people are a little bit angry. I guess I think that's partly where it falls apart though is just like it doesn't. There's no cohesiveness between the two things. Right. The only the only real reason we have even like Kira V Countess is because in the original teaser for Huntress they talked about how she's hunting Countess past that we haven't heard anything about this lower otherwise like and so it just feels disconnected from what they've been releasing and what they did with the release in general. I would like to see them do more with war. This comment is perfect. Decker versus Muriel Gideon gadget versus Gideon. Right. Like people in the same lane where it makes sense that you're going to have an actual duel against each other. Right. Kira versus Countess are never going to see each other outside of teamfights. Right. Or unless you're playing Kira Countess off lane maybe and even then not really or Countess is in mid and just keeps ganking off or ganking duo lane or something like that over and over again. Yeah. And I have two two cookies point to like you read part of it. It's like it's four different things like so Decker Muriel for Penta kills or something like that. Like OK you know or for Gadget versus Gideon for the river buff like putting the emphasis on who gets the most kills. Like I don't know it just again it it it seems like it's supposed to be a four fun event and then they didn't have the fun part. But again I'm also not that pissed about it like I don't care. I was like OK I don't really give a shit about this so I'm not worried about it. Point as well. It's a bit of a problem. They didn't do anything to get you excited about it. Well they just randomly were like here's an event. Yeah. OK. Like. Yeah. I mean again I think it's fun. It's cool that they're not events that it has the upside in League of Legends. They did an event like Dreamwalker versus Endbringer which was Riven and Yasuo. They've done it a couple times but they did Arius and Garen then Riven and Yasuo. Right. And these are characters that are in the same lane that they built up an event around. They had themed skins around the event. They had all of these things that get everybody in the community or a vast majority of the community excited about the event. Right. And this isn't that. Like it's just not meh. OK. You hit. Oh go ahead. Just had a disgusting image pop into my head. Oh. I was thinking you said skis designed around it. The grucks felt skin that Chimera is pretty much wearing grucks's head and belt. Did you imagine Kira wearing Countess's head skin. More interesting than a fucking border. OK. So that actually that's I'm going to transition us. I'll be using this as a transition. The fact that they we got an IP champion and they didn't have a cool bad ass IP skin. We've been getting fucking recolor after recolor after recolor. And now they bring us a brand new champion of their own design. Have an opportunity to make a sick really interesting maybe lore heavy. Some kind of cool thing. And it's a it's it's slightly. And I mean the slightest amount over a recolor. It's you know slight paint difference on her face. They even changed the color of the crossbow bolt. And like I don't care that the animations or the spells themselves don't change color or anything like that. That's OK. I don't mind that for fidelity. But like nothing about that skin is all that much more interesting than just the base skin. And it's like I was really excited to see something like new and fun from them. And I'm sorry to say this to the breadboys but like I'm just constantly disappointed by their art direction and the way that they are making the aesthetics of the game feel interesting and intriguing and want me to showcase it in game. Like I don't care about literally any of the skins in the game. I have zero desire to buy any skin that predecessor has put out at all. Like if it was like my money going into it I wouldn't put I just wouldn't do it. I think it's been pointed out in chat though that here it does fit in with the Paragon aesthetic overall. Like yeah we know their skins their skin game is not up to par. We know this. We've discussed this a million times. We know that they need to do better skins. But I think here it does fit into the aesthetic with the other heroes. Yes nicely. I would agree there that I think here is designed in terms of what the Paragon heroes looked like is pretty close. Right. Like I wouldn't say it's 100 percent there but it's it's much closer than I would have expected for a first time out out the gate for her her release skin. Yeah it's underwhelming tier ones or whatever the commons I guess are going to be what the release skins are it seems like. And theoretically they're holding off all the cool whiz bang stuff for her level 40 if you reach level 40 skin. So I'm very curious to see what that's going to be if that's also just a basic recolor material change. I'll be kind of peeved. But so yeah I mean but I great this is a fantastic transition as well to the they announced what their tiers are for their skins. And that's just terrible too. I didn't see that. In the patch notes in the patch notes for the Kira release patch that they have common and rare and the price for those in inside of those tiers the price will change between six hundred and eight hundred for commons and I think it's thirteen and sixteen hundred for rares because of it depending on which of the things in that tier they actually have. I think that's ridiculous be stupid. It's a way to justify their behavior it's not an actual way that makes any sense or that has been done in the industry elsewhere. And that pisses me off by itself because. We're so great recolors are six dollars and then recolors with the material change. Are eight dollars like so the honest skin has a material change that's an eight dollar skin now. Even though it's just a recolor of her base model with just like I said just just the materials change and. It's just lazy and it pisses me off that we're going to say that tiered skins have different prices. You're all in the common tier but you can have a two dollar swing in any either direction. You're all in the rare tier but you can have a three dollar swing in any direction like why. It's just ridiculous. It is a little weird. We did ask for though we specifically asked them to justify why there's different prices for these skins. So I guess I guess we got our answer. I. Yeah I don't know. Keep in theme of me saying is every time about the time from now to when Epic made these skins gets longer and longer every time I talk about it. So like a lot of these skins look 10 years old. You know and now they come out with a new champion and a new skin and it's also 10 years old. Like how does that make sense. I don't care about the fidelity and aesthetic from when this game was brand new and everybody was playing it on their PlayStation 3 or 4 or whatever. Like I want today game. I wanted to day skins and I know like there's a lot of OG Paragon guys who are just like Paragon back. Like I'm not you. This is 2023 dude. I want shit to be cool and I want to be exciting. I want to feel seen on the rift when I buy one of your fucking skins and the pricing and all that stuff for Epic assets. It pisses me off. I'm not going to go down all of that. I just I'm just not impressed. You know what I mean. And like it just it surprises me that the rest of the community is also not more on that. Like how are you not doing things to be more impressive. Like I just I don't know. I don't know man. Maybe maybe I'm being ridiculous. That's just me earlier. You mean because you kind of talked about part of it of the fitting aesthetic of predecessor. Right. And the rest of that comment was talking about the aesthetics of of overprime not matching Paragon as much as predecessors match Paragon. Right. And I don't think they should know they should I think Paragon the overprime is doing more of that 2023 design implementation than predecessor is currently. And yes. Does that mean the aesthetic is different from Paragon. Absolutely. But I don't think it's a bad thing. And I think that they're them forging their own aesthetic is also a good thing. Right. Yes. People are upset that they changed Shinbi's face Twin Blast face and I'm blanking. I'm sure the whole bunch of people face hairs different like a whole bunch of stuff. Right. He loaded a bunch of junk encounters his trunk. I'll think anybody's bitching about that one though. But like somebody is. Somebody is saying that Mako doesn't fit the Paragon aesthetic. I don't I agree with you. I don't think Mako fits the Paragon aesthetic. But I think Mako fits the overprime aesthetic perfectly. I think overprime too. He's the getaway from listening to Paragon fans because the obvious better Paragon remake is predecessor. That was just obviously the better Paragon remake. Yes. Overprime is its own game though. They could make a different new experience for the people that want a different and new experience. And I think that they should stick to doing that instead of cowtowing to a lot of the Paragon fans and trying to to make their game more like Paragon. It doesn't need to be like Paragon. It can be overprime even though they named it Paragon. Please. Yeah. They're creating a new mobile with Paragon assets more than they're creating Paragon again. And I think that is OK. Like I think we need to be more OK with I'm very much OK with it. More OK with that and allow them to be able to do the things they wanted because and we've heard Beard Wolverine talk about it several times on the I can't remember what they called their prime cast on the prime cast and then on FTM the couple times he's been here about how CBT two he didn't like at all. And then the final the final beta test he actually enjoyed playing the game again which is great that they appealed to a new player that the new player came in. But the game was fundamentally changed between the two places. Right. And that I think is also a potential detriment. We've said it many, many times as they've announced those changes. That's a potential detriment to the game. And that we're getting to the point where yeah you exactly make use predecessors the better Paragon remake. So stop trying to be a Paragon remake. Yeah. Do your thing. Do it well. Go back to the three abilities. Make the two towers work. Make do the things that you want to do more extremely that you can bring players in that like that aesthetic better rather than trying to find I said it about Feng Mao and Kira trying to find this middle ground that doesn't work for either side. Yeah. I think bearded Wolverine is a perfect example because bearded is going to prefer predecessor no matter what. Well I wouldn't say no matter what over prime does. But bearded prefers predecessor. So over prime isn't going to suck bearded in by making the game more predecessor like because predecessor is already more predecessor like you know he's already got a game that he can play like that. But then folks like us that that kind of want something new and fun and different are going to gravitate towards over prime. So that they there are two different fan bases there. And over prime needs to stop trying to dip into the Paragon fan base because that's not where their success lies. Whereas predecessor. I think they also need to be doing some new and different things and they have been they've been constantly iterating and improving predecessor and it's become a better and better game. But they already have that pet the old Paragon fans. They lean to predecessor. People that just like like I said I don't necessarily think one game is better than the other. But like I said predecessor is the better Paragon remake. But over prime is still a great fun fucking game that I love to play. It's a good mobile over. I mean it's we we give it a lot of critique and I know we will probably do some of that today again depending on how things go. But I agree. And I gave I continue to give predecessor a lot of kudos that that they have lived up to what they said they're starting slow and iterating each patch and getting better from patch to patch. And I think for the most part they have done that. I think you're coming in. You know a lot of times you know League of Legends is probably the biggest example whenever a new champion is released. You know it's overpowered. It's impossible to balance. And it takes you know 15 patches for them to get it to somewhere. And then it's either you know still overpowered or it's dead and then just move on to the next cool champion. I think here comes in kind of almost similar to how when Xena came in it's like she's viable. Not overpowered not under powered. I think she's OK. Obviously she's getting a lot of play right now because she's the new hotness. But I think as the game goes along and I already saw it in some of my games she wasn't even being picked sometimes because people were just like OK I got my fun from her I'm going to go back to what I think is the best pick currently. And I think that's that's good. I think that'll be fine. So predecessor overall and this will be my final point and we can move on but I think predecessor has made a good new champion into their game. I think she'll be exciting to see how it you know grow with the game and I'm excited to see more. I still will challenge the team to do more innovation to make the game more exciting. I still think time to kill in team fights are wackadoodle. You know we were talking a little bit about macro especially with you being in the tournament and how solo lanes probably better off never grouping with their team and just constantly pushing towers. That doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me and I play mostly solo lane like I want to get into fights I want to use my team fighting ultimate to do something cool in a team. But I'm sacking pressure to do that. Right. And we tried that sometimes this week where I was like I'm going to come and try and help with the you know with the neutral stakes and then I just ended up losing two towers for it. I don't know they have some innovation to do and I'm looking forward to what that looks like. Let's transition over to the other predecessor news for this week which was the part of heroes tournament which is actually going on right now I think grand finals will be tonight. This has been the least dramatic tournament in a good way. Like there's been drama in every fucking tournament for predecessor and over prime not good drama like you want dramatic gameplay. There's been plenty of dramatic gameplay in this tournament but there's the outside drama has been very minimal. It's been just a good fun tournament. They just people signed up for it. They randomized the teams pretty much some of them are a little stacked but you know what you can't can't help that something you do a random randomizing like that sometimes just gonna be stacked. You don't know everybody's skill level. I participated in the tournament so that gives you an idea of how low skilled you needed to be to get into this. Always talking shit. You know what guys I don't know if any of you have got the chance to play against Mingus but he's way better at these games. I mean I'm not saying he's like you know Soul Reaper good but he's definitely better than average. Oh I'm better than Soul Reaper. And he beat Soul Reaper the other day. So I mean that automatically by the rules of bronze whoever takes their tower first wins that lane and the rest of the outcome of the game that's on your team. As long as you take your tower first you won. I just think in rules of Chronicles of Riddick you keep what you kill you killed. Soul Reaper is true. What a good movie by the way. He's so much so good. So I want to pull this up too. So the little bit of drama that was in the tournament was actually centered around my team. It was Overdrive versus Black Thames or just Thames was the name of the team. Black Thames is on the team. That's a bit of a narcissistic name now that I think of it. But anyway they're they're jungler lost power disconnected mid game. And so they we just kind of rolled over them after that. And that would have been super embarrassing. We would have lost more every five. But they were obviously winning before that. So after the match they asked if we wanted to rematch. I of course said fuck no no rematch we play it as it lies. I spent a lot of good money having bears power cut off so that we could win that game. But no no we all unanimously agreed and then we got beat and I'll tell you right now that losing a fair fight felt a hell of a lot better than winning an unfair fight. But they gave they gave me a little a little out of the way. Yeah they gave me a little certificate. They gave well they gave all the entire team overdrive a little bit. thanking us for for being for being that for for good sportsmanship which I thought was really cool of them. Just a really fun good tournament overall and just really really happy with it. This is I think been the best best tournament overall the GTG tournament I thought was really good for over prime a long time ago back in the final beta test. But this one was really good. It's really good as well. But I'm a percent. So yeah check that out. And then let's move on now though to overprime. Up here. Actually let me let me pull up the Mako Mako Mako Mako. There we go. So over prime is announced that they are introducing Mako into the game this is an original IP support. And along with them as we've as we've learned a little bit more about about his kit. I didn't know much about his kit but they did a dev stream and Soul Cloud who really great dude. He did a sort of a breakdown like where he went through and tried to find out what Mako's kit actually does. I have that link down in the video description if you want to check that out from Soul Cloud and dropping the sub while you're there. And he brings a mechanic to the game that we haven't seen in a Paragon or Paragon like game ever which I think is great because it's actually going to shake things up which over prime really needs. And that is traditionally we've always had heal over time heroes jelly corrected me earlier. I said in Paragon it was always health regen increased health regen from you know the phase link and our bash and everything but it's always been heal over time. Mako just has a straight up heal like a straight line. If he hits an enemy it deals damage if it hits a hero it heals them for a burst of healing. We have not seen just straight up healing in a Paragon game unless it was on an item. And I think this is going to be a little nutty. Yeah. Oh yeah. Also chat is not scrolling alive. So if you want to hit refresh on it or something like that. I just saw that skin for the first time I somehow missed that when I watched the video. Holy shit that looks so cool. Yeah. I'm so in. But even in a base in all day long. I think he looks cool. I mean just the long range that he has is also kind of nutty to me. I mean it seems like he does a little bit of everything. Honestly. I'm almost concerned that this is power creep and there's only like 25 heroes in the game. Well I mean his abilities don't seem to do a whole hell of a lot of damage which is nice. I haven't seen anybody do like a damage build with him or anything. But as far as the skin goes with the tire immediately my first thought was that he is an axle from Twisted Metal's pet. Perfect. But yeah as far as this kit goes he has the straight heel. He has like a long range bouncing ability that knocks enemies back. So that will serve also as an interrupt which we'll be talking about tonight as well. His ultimate is really cool. It's a lot like May from Here's the Storm. You see him throw that ball out. What you don't see is it wraps everybody up. That's that's in the line of that ball and did they impact on what at the end they get stunned and a big impact and they're all grouped together or once it hits a wall it explodes. So that's going to be really fun. Like I can imagine a fight in the prime pit. Beko just rolls everybody blasts him up against the wall and then that's a perfect setup for like a howitzer ultimate or just just a Gideon rock not even a Gideon combo just a Gideon rock on everybody on the enemy team that got rolled up into that ultimate. That's going to be insane. Yeah. I mean I just think his whole kit looks like it's going to shake things up quite a bit. I was laughing by the way at JVN's mention. I can I can throw balls at people. The range at which he's able to do stuff or it's able to decide. I don't know. Is it's going to be nuts. I'm excited to see what that looks like in teamfights especially because my thing is that I think over prime's biggest strength is in their team fighting. And the way that there's opportunity for all kinds of fun stuff to have happen in a team fight. I don't think any team fight is ever the same. It never feels like it's going to be the same kind of team fight back and forth. It's always kind of rambunctious and a little bit chaotic. And it's a lot of times the team that manages to navigate through all that chaos. And I haven't really make it was going to be helping to create more of that kind of crazy chaos. He looks fun. That's all I can say and I can't wait for us to be able to play him in just a few days because he's going to be hotly contested. Also part of his kit, he has a jump in where he lands and it slows enemies. I think if you in predecessor, if you were to jump in like that with a hero with a support, he would just die. Yeah. Meiko, I think, will actually have enough time to jump in behind the enemy team, roll them up in a ball and throw them into their own team. If that's a good idea, maybe you never know. You know, you maybe not don't want to roll that several and a camera up and then throw them into your into your ADC. But I think there's going to be a lot of opportunities for some great plays with Meiko. And then with fights lasting long, that burst heal, I think it's going to be so much fun. I'm thinking of other healers I've played in other MOBAs and knowing timing that burst heal, knowing who to heal and when to heal is a lot of fun whenever you're supporting. And I think that's going to bring a lot of fun back and freshen up over prime a little bit. It needs an over prime stale as fuck right now. I I the biggest thing, honestly, I want bigger just overall changes from them in this makeup. Oh, gosh, I don't I don't want Meiko to come in and then have it be Meiko and Stale game. Like I'd rather be honestly flip the game on its head at this point because it's just it's kind of sad. I agree. They are resetting rank mode, but we don't know anything as of now, as of us talking about this right now. We haven't seen patch notes. So now we don't know anything. We're sort of guessing it. Yeah, tonight, they'll probably I would imagine so. That's the way they do it. Which Sundays from switch to Sundays, right, to do the live streams and all of that kind of stuff. So we could have the information before we talk about it. And then everybody switched their information. So yeah, the information to talk about it anymore. It's perfect. They have hinted with some of the live streams that there's a lot of changes coming. This is whatever prime needs. Like I said, it's it's gotten really stale. The the the ADC Decor beta is just oppressive as fuck. They need to make a lot of changes and hopefully those changes are coming. And there's going to be a lot of people playing Meiko. I usually don't get to like I wasn't too excited to play here because I'm not a carry kind of guy. I am very excited to play Meiko. Meiko, Meiko, whatever. Mm hmm. It's OK, so, Reaver, you were playing you were playing in your little tournament. I do. I mean, the thing that's annoying, I think, with with over prime is like all the potential is there. And it's just like it's like that kid. You know, you have them like you got all the potential. A lot of kids you just come together and execute it right. Like there's like hints at just the one of the most amazing games I feel like with all the visuals and the it just the nuance and kits and the team fights. Like all of that part is great. They just they just need the core gameplay to feel good. And that's where it's the biggest lack. And I know we talked about it every week, but like, you know, minions not mattering as much. Towers feeling like they don't. There's no real split pushing. There's no real big macro. It's like after 15, 20 minutes, it's like who meatballs better and manages to win the game that way. And that sucks. Like, even though you're getting really cool and fun team fights, it just turns into a meatball fest. And I just I don't know. I don't have fun with it long term. I usually enjoy the games that I get into and spurts, you know, I could play like three or four games and then I'm like, OK, I'm good now because you start to miss that other part of what makes, you know, your traditional MOBA exciting. And I don't think it's drastic fixes that they need. Honestly, I think they just need to really sit down and figure out how to make minions and towers and lanes matter more than they currently do. And once that's fixed and I would like we've talked about it before, I would almost say go overboard, like make minions stupid valuable, like make them almost too valuable so people are hardly leaving lane at first. Like if I leave lane, I'm fucking trolling you. Like, but I don't know. I don't know what else to do. And obviously, I don't have their ear to be able to get them to listen to me. But I do think that they the game needs something because all the rest of it is there. It's just the macro aspects of the game feel very stale and they feel repetitive. The games always feel the same. We're going to group is five in mid lane or group is five around one of the neutral pits. We're going to try and fight it out. Whoever wins, wins. And that's usually the game. We're going to do it again, rinse, repeat at the next objective, rinse, repeat at the next objective. It's just never, I don't know. It just seems weird. And so they need to do something. I feel like a mobile. Yes, it still feels like a mobile. It's just not it's not as aggressive as a traditional mobile is my biggest thing is, like, like, like we said earlier, even though they picked up the Paragon name, even though they picked up the Paragon logo, they need to stop trying to be Paragon and be overprime. Yeah. Yeah. Because overprime is fun. Overprime is great. I mean, I'm, of course, in the camp that I don't want another Paragon Paragon. And again, I think Mingus hit the head. Predecessor is a better Paragon remake, whether you want to call it Paragon two or maybe I would say maybe it's like Paragon one point five. It's like slight iterations, you know, like it's predecessor. So it's Paragon point five. Anyway, I'm just saying like it's not it's it's good enough to call itself new, but it's not like it's not changing anything dramatically enough to be so different. It still feels very Paragon to me. And I know there's a whole slew of people that's exactly the game they want. And I'm also enjoying predecessor. It's not like my games on predecessor. I mean, sometimes I'm tilted out of my mind, but I loved overprime because to me, it felt like all of my favorite characters from Paragon got a facelift and thrown into the future. And they got all these new exciting kids. And some of them stayed the same because they fit well, but they got new aesthetics. And, you know, I don't know. It just felt like a more exciting, like, you know, like, and then it just like over time, it's gotten worse and worse and worse as far as the overall macro. Everything else is still there. Like I said, it's just the macro feels there's an amount that the like the nostalgia glasses are involved in this. But I sometimes think that I had more fun in CBT two than I'm having today in overprime. That's not to say I'm not having fun, but I that CBT two was just more fun overall because the game felt new and different rather than it does now. Yeah. You had all your abilities unlocked from from level one. You had the prime dunk mechanic in there. You had a lot of a lot of cool shit. I can probably go away. Well, there was parts of prime dunk that obviously then you would have needed to fix. Right. The fact that we could end games at eight minutes. That's not a good game play. We don't want that overprime. I think that was that. Yeah. But the idea behind a lot of this stuff was was there. I will die on this hill that prime dunk is a balanced mechanic and anyone who says otherwise. Fight me. I swear to God, I will fight you all because it's ridiculous that it's it got taken out and I hate it every single day. I wish they didn't take it out. Well, they didn't need to make it the prime or marching down the lane pushing mid lane. Like, you know, it could just give just give you the prime buff. Yeah. The dunking mechanic by itself. I'm done is a balanced mechanic. Yes. I will fight all of you. No, I thought so, too. I thought it was a fun way because you had one again, the objective of taking the prime ball, right? And then you also had the refight on their terms, like on their side of the map to be able to put it in. And there was a lot. I mean, we had so many times where, like, as we were figuring it out, the different types, like, you know, like you had the Muriel dunk. You had like all these things. But sometimes it was just always like the setup wasn't always perfect. We needed to clear out and set up vision. And like, you know, there was a lot of stuff that went into it. And it's like, we're fine. They have time to set up first, like, and we're going to have to go into them. And it was so much fun. Now, I don't know, like the mini prime is still really cool. I love many prime that the deer is OK. It's not it's not still super exciting, but it's an OK idea. Again, it just I don't know. I don't really I think what I hate the most is the AOE. Damage on all the turrets and or in him or the base itself. I just don't like that idea. I would much rather do similar to what a pred and every other MOBA has done where you just give a lane pushing buff, give everybody a little bit of a buff and a beefy way to move the the the minions. And again, but you have to make minions matter. As you say, don't remove that if you're not going to fix everything else first, because if you remove that in current overprime and just remove that games will go to two hours long. Because that's the only way to end games on a consistent basis. I'm also going to double down that Muriel Dunk is a balanced mechanic, and I will fight all of you on that one as well. I swear to God. Now, you're fine. You're really in your fighting ability. I know, right? You that Kwong Dunk is a little ridiculous, but Muriel Dunk balanced mechanic, I will fight you. He really wants to wrestle JVN. I just I can I think that overprime and you guys both said it, I think overprime has the best opportunity to make things their own. And I do hate that it feels like they've gone off of that. It seems like they're trying to appeal to two sides of the coin and ending up with the worst product in the end. And it's because it's every new patch we're excited. I know we're excited about this when we're excited to see the skins. We're excited to see the update. And I don't want with every patch that's come out so far where it's like, OK, I was so excited for said champion to get released. And then it was dull after three days. OK, two weeks from now, we're getting another new champion. OK, I'm so excited. I'm so excited. New champion comes out, done with it within a week. And it's because the core gameplay is just not good enough. And it's because like Mingus and Jelior both saying they are appealing to two different camps and it's not accomplishing either. It's just not quite substantial enough. So they need to shake it up. And I don't know if this patch will have it. I'm hoping that because they keep talking like they're going to early they're going to be done with early access soon. And I just don't feel like this game is ready for being out of early access, at least with early access. They can still claim to be working on everything behind the scenes. So unless there's some major change that's going to happen. Post release, I don't know if this game is ready for that personally. Like all the marketing that they're going to push to to try and get more players in and also I just don't think this that people will stick it out. Well, let's go ahead and move on from overprime. Let's talk about the differences between predecessor and overprime and the difference we're going to be talking about this week is the way interrupts work. So in overprime, if you're thinking about using an ability and somebody interrupts you, it goes on like double the fucking cool down that normally would like you get a your ability goes on full cool down if you get interrupted in overprime. Whereas predecessor, like if you cast like a count assault and you haven't dealt damage yet, if you get interrupted, you could just recast that ultimate as soon as you hit the ground. How he starts to pop up in the air, you interrupt him. If he hasn't dealt damage with the Rockets, he gets to come back. He just gets to pop right back up in the air and cast it again. And I think that they need to both games need to kind of meet somewhere in the middle of this. It's just very it's very frustrating and overprime to have your ability go on absolute full cool down because Decker hit at the right moment. And a lot of times it's not even planned or predicted that she just happened to stun you when you were about to use your ability. And it goes on full fucking cool down. And then predecessor, on the other hand, like, what's the skill expression there? Like, I did predict that Kira was about to well, here's a bad example, but I did predict that, you know, that how was her was about to use his ultimate? Because you could always tell an answer about the ultimate. And I interrupted it. But then he just flew up in the air anyway and killed my carry anyway. Like, what was the point of me throwing that Stasis bomb out if he's just going to be able to redo it? Yeah, I completely agree. And honestly, I think the middle ground is setting a time frame. Yeah, it's X time over the cast and it gets interrupted cool down. If it's before that time, it doesn't go on cool down, right? Or even you go to the route that some games have taken that if an ultimate gets interrupted before it does damage, it goes on half cool down, right? You do you do something where it doesn't feel as bad as if I just get stunned out of my ultimate that I go on a hundred and twenty second cool down, even though it did nothing. Now I'm on sixty second, which still feels bad, but not as much. But even if you make it consistent, that if it's anything over half a second past the start of the cast, you go on half cool down or full cool down, whatever they decide to do. And if it's before that, it refunds, right? Because then, you know, you know, as it as the Decker throwing your queue, right, you know what that threshold is. All right, I need to wait. I just just count one, right? That you say, OK, they're alting one throw, right? And from there, now, you know, it's half cool down, right? Because then it's consistent. You have a very consistent, predictable way to know that that ability is now on cool down versus being able to be recast. And I think that's where my frustration with predecessor comes in sometimes with ultimates, is it I get to the point where I'm on Kira and I press my R and she hasn't even the little circle, the decal on the ground hasn't even appeared yet from what my damaging area is. And I get stunned and it does go on full, full cool down. And I'm like, but I didn't, I didn't manipulate the game in any way, shape or form. I didn't do any damage. I didn't nothing and I'm on full cool down now. But then other times the same exact scenario and it'll refund me. And it's like, so what changed? I have no idea what was different between these two instances to know what I need to be on the lookout for for the next time. And I think that's the biggest problem. Yeah, I think count is just another good one. Like being like count is getting CC'd out of her thing. And then she gets to put you into a full suppress once she's back out of whatever you put on to her. If you didn't blow her up and she gets that massive heel and all that. I mean, I know like I'm going to use League, for example, they have like a really good, fairly defined priority system that goes along with it. And then also some of them are unstoppable win cast. I mean, we didn't even talk about this with Kira, like you're going untargetable or whatever as well. Like that's still such a weird thing. That's in our questions. We'll cover that in a bit. Yeah, I know we will, but it's still just like a weird interaction and like and how that works in a third person MOBA. And like, is there there space for that kind of stuff of being like unstoppable once you've pressed your button? Like, you know, let's say, for example, account is, you know, CC. Like, is she should she just be unstoppable so she can get her seat when she pressed the button? First, I don't know, but there's an argument to be made there versus like, you know, like, you can't CC like some champions that have already pressed their ultimate. Like they're they're now unstoppable or they've got so much mobility that you can't do anything about it. And I think how it's there's a really good example, especially in predecessor where it's like, man, I should be rewarded for seeing that he's about to do the thing and I interrupt him. And the same thing with their silencing, which is another interrupt technically and how that works. And then sometimes you get silenced out of it and it went on cooldown anyway, just because you got silence versus being CC. The interactions are so widely varied that it becomes and this is to me, this is in both games. I know we're supposed to be comparing the two, but honestly, in both games, it feels very inconsistent about when interactions are going and then you throw a ping into the mix and it's it's it's even more asinine and they need to clearly define how they're those interactions work. And I don't think either studio has done a good job with it. You can interrupt Rampage if it's while he's growing, you can interrupt it. Maybe there's silence, though. I don't know. I don't know about it. No, silence is one of the most busted CCs in predecessor, bar none. There's literally nothing in the game that is stronger than silence. Yeah, that will stop in progress abilities. That will stop abilities you haven't cast yet. If you were thinking about casting an ability, it stops you from thinking about it. It's that strong. Absolutely insane. A couple of times I never felt more frustrated than when I was playing Countess when she first came out. And I would be in her ultimate and he would just toss a nade down and no, no more ultimate for you. Sucks to suck. I didn't do damage, nothing. And then it goes on full cooldown afterwards. It pisses me off even further because I didn't get any of the benefits from my ultimate. I got all the downsides, right? Oh, man, I hate it. But the example that I had of that was I had Bellica altered had the pistol out. The sound effect played from her pistol. But Richter hit me with silence. Therefore, pistol did not shoot, did not deal damage. I'm like, what the actual fuck? In progress abilities being interrupted by silence is wild. Now, if it's a channeled ability, that's slightly different because that's a consistent thing you're doing. But if it's a one press Countess, Bellica, something like that, right? Dumb. That's so dumb that it interrupts an in progress ability. It was a soul mode. I think that's part of it, too, is like so many of these. And I know we mostly are referring to ultimates, but they have like such big windups, even though it's an instant ability. So they're almost being channeled without being a channel. And that's, I think, where it's like, it feels weird that that's how the interaction goes through because the animations tend to be fairly flamboyant or obvious that, hey, I'm about to do something cool with my R button. Yeah, I don't know. It just, it just, it feels bad on both games. Honestly, actually, I think it's worse in Pred sometimes because the exact, like, I wish almost it was, because OP, you interrupt an ultimate or if you get your ultimate interrupted, you know, you're just like, well, I know that I'm not gonna be able to reuse those. At least it's consistent in that regard. Whereas with Predecessor, I mean, like, I was playing Countess and I was like, oh, shit, I got knocked out of my ultimate. And then I was like, oh, wait, I just hit the wait and I can cast it again. Okay, cool. Like I was just okay. I mean, yeah, I took a lot more damage than I was initially expecting because I thought I'd be able to do my full combo, but I got interrupted while going, and then they hit me first. I think the suppress should start when the animation starts personally. I think that's, again, that's to me where it's a consistency of like, when, at what point does this consider I am now unable to be interrupted because I've already started the thing. And if I can still be interrupted, like, let's say I'm in full animation of it and my team can save me from the damage or from whatever and interrupt the Countess, then she shouldn't get the cooldown back. She obviously went in to use it. She shouldn't get it back because we played around her abilities. Like, so there's, and again, it's the inconsistency of knowing when is it going to give it back to her versus it's not. Cause I'm sure that Carrie, who I was about to kill, got interrupted and then killed again anyway because I had got to press my R button twice was a little bit bummed, you know? It's a unique situation to be sure, but I had a game on Countess where I was ulting Drongo, but before I altered him, he pressed Q. My alt started, he was actually suppressed. I was in the animation as the grenade landed, then went off and that pulled me out of my ultimate on the guy that used the ability. Like, it's just insane. Like some of the levels that this goes to and the inconsistency is the worst part, right? Like, it's just, it's terrible. And it needs to be more consistent across the board for both games. You laughing at the steel comment? No, I'm laughing at Jalei, but the steel one's also pretty good. But no, I'm saying that he needs me going like this as a meme, basically, of fucking Fred boys. Oh, boy, no, it's weird. It's one of the many differences between predecessor and overprime. And it's one of the ones where I think that both need to change things and meet a little bit in the middle because it's a little, it's a little too oppressive even Fred to be able to recast your ultimate. It's a little too oppressive and overprime that you just get straight up shut down by a random Decker ball that bounce weird. Yep. Well, it was overprime. With everything with having such massive windups and the vast majority of ultimate abilities, right? Doing the thing I said about just having a timer, even if it's one second, right? After one second, if you interrupt them, it goes on full or half cooldown before one second it gets refunded, right? If that's the threshold, then I at least know what it is. It's consistent across the board. And if I have to do a one count before I throw my Decker Q, I'll do a one count before I throw my Decker Q, like, fine. And I think that's, and 50% cooldown instead of 100% cooldown on interrupt, also I think would be huge. Yeah, I think that would be the best change that I would like to see. Yeah, just a 50% cooldown overall. Thoughts on Xena following you even if you blink. I think it's fine because if you use that against her, put her into a worse position than she was anticipating. Xena ult now isn't good enough to usually execute people anymore. It used to execute people because her damage was so good, but now I don't think it's that bad, Raphjawed. I think it's fine. It's nice to be playing around this ultimate, not letting the ultimate play around you. Wait for her to come out of it, then blink, or wait for her to not, that she's looking like she's gonna engage and blink away first. Don't blink in the middle of it. It kind of sucks if you're by yourself, but if you're around a tower and you could blink into your tower and put her into your tower, that's fun. Or put her into your team. Like if you blink into your team, it spreads the damage out too, so it's a lot less likely she's gonna kill you then your team could follow up. I think that's kind of actually a fun interaction, but I can definitely see why people will be frustrated with it. Well, yeah, because she goes untargetable while doing all that and stuff. Yeah, just blinking around all over the place. I think it's cool, but I think the two, when we're talking about the difference, like overprime and why it feels so annoying when you get your ultimate or whatever, especially for your on-the-ground melee. The people who have height to their advantage, where they can get up in the air and use their ultimates and stuff like that, to me, that's when you don't notice it as much. How it's her being able to get his ultimate off, because he launches up into the middle of the sky, it's really difficult to catch him in the middle of his animation to knock him out of that. So if he hits R, he's probably getting his full ultimate off. And now with Gideon, Gideon has a CC immunity for the first CC that hits him while he's channeling his ultimate. So all of the on-the-ground, I mean, Muriel, she hits ultimate, she's going up in the air and flying to it. There's no real interrupt on her. So it's like, it's the guys on the ground that really, to me, feel like when you press button, you get interrupted. It's like extra suck, because there's just nothing else you could do. You've now used your biggest cooldown, and you just got knocked out of it by somebody hitting a basic ability that's going to be up in three seconds. And so I do agree that there, it just needs to be more fidelity in each game. There needs to be more understanding of when is my thing going to be interrupted? How is that going to impact the game? And then I agree with the cooldown reductions. Like if you get knocked out, but especially if you make it 25%, 50%, I don't care. Some kind of refund on it. It's still on cooldown, so you don't get immediately depressed it again, but it can still shape its way around in the teamfights. I think that's especially more valuable in predecessor than overprime, because overprime teamfights already pretty back and forth. And a lot of it might have to do with the fact that you get so many ultimate abilities or big wombo combo abilities interrupted during teamfights, and so they don't end as quickly as they do in predecessor where they can still get those teamfighting ultimates off after CC has stopped, which is kind of nuts. Let's move on now from the, we'll have a different differences next week. If you guys have any that you want us to talk about, let us know in the comments and we'll cover them. The differences between predecessor and overprime. Let's move on to the questions from Discord. First one is from Ike the Funny. For the remaining heroes that aren't out, how would you change anyone's kit for the remainder of the CC that's not in the game? Cons, fears, banishes, trembles, disarms. I think a great example of that. And I keep bringing up fault when I think about this kind of stuff. Fault added a disarm and a gray zones kit. There was a lot of great things about fault, but there is definitely a reason fault is gone now. I kind of feel like I skirt around that a bit too much. Yes, there were good things about fault, but there is a reason that we are not fault. Does it have a segment anymore on FTM? Like they did a lot of things wrong too, but they did a lot of things right. And one of the things they did right was gray zones kit having a disarm in it because it fed into his kit, it fed into his identity of being a backline slayer that can jump on top of a ADC, disarm them so that the ADC is no longer healing off of their basic attacks and then just mow them down. So I think gray zone for both games, if they could throw a disarm on him like they did with fault, I think that would be amazing. Yep. A disarm on gray zone or a disarm on Terra also I think could be a cool addition, as well as a taunt, a taunt on Terra could also be great. That's exactly who I was thinking for a taunt, yeah. Yeah, taunt, I think taunts are the thing that both overprime and predecessor have not messed enough with, Aurora in overprime has a taunt on minions with her right click, but not on heroes. I want a hero taunt for that. And like, and the theory has got Marina's charm, which is very similar to a taunt, but I think it's that taunts and disarms are things that are sorely missing from these games for sure. So when I read this one, my eyes, and I don't know what's champion to put it on, but a banish. I love the idea of a banish, because it sees them during the entire time. They can't take damage, they can't do things, they can't move or whatever, they're just banished. I love that idea. I think that's such a cool concept. They have it in Mortal Warcraft. I think it's super, super interesting and neat. I think it would be amazing. Now, this is the part though that I have to go into is there's no real good cleanse items. And I think if you have more interesting, unique CCs, I think you need a better cleanse than what is available for it. Cause like, there's no, in League of Legends, you can take it as a summoner spell. And there's no way to game around that unless you go into maybe an item that's not beneficial to your kit. And so you have to force an index if more unique CCs start to come into the game that do stuff like that where it's like, okay, well, I'm an AD carry and the only way I can get out of it is if I go into this item, but that item doesn't help me do more damage or doesn't help me do this thing better. So it's just kind of, I'm kind of fucked if I, you know, get, that's where I would, the only thing, but I thought a banish would be super cool in the game personally. I like the way, here's the storm does banishes. Anubarak is one of the ones that banishes. He wraps you up in a cocoon. Your team can actually DPS that cocoon down and break it to get you out of it earlier. I think that's a really fun mechanic. But while you're in the cocoon, you're not taking damage, you're not dealing damage, you're not doing shit. And it's used as an initiate you take, like if they have somebody that's just dealing massive amounts of damage, you cocoon them at the start of the fight, then you dive into their backline, fuck them up and then wait for that cocoon to drop and then do something. And see Fox McLeod brings up my exact thought on banishes, unfortunately, is that banishes are anti-fun for the player that's banished. Yeah. True. And that like hard anti-fun. Like not, it's not like Revenant where you, the both of you go in and now it's a skill game of like, can I beat him at his own game or can I get away? A banish is just a straight up, you don't get to play the game for five seconds, congrats, and then you move on to something else. And that's, that feels bad because a banish to be effective as a banish and not just rather be a stun needs to be longer than two seconds and anything longer than two seconds is gonna feel so bad. It's ridiculous. Two seconds stuns already feel like crap, right? But anything over that on a banish would just feel worse. And you'd have to find a way to make that. I think the cocoon is a great way to do that. We're like, it's like, yes, am I still not playing the game? Absolutely, but my team can do something to help me get back into the game faster. That's super cool, but a flat just like, and you're gone sucks, people like shit. In that same vein then, and I agree with you, a banish could feel that way, especially in a MOBO, but what about like, again, using World of Warcraft, like sheep and sheep, you get sheeped for however long you're in the sheep. Obviously there's diminishing returns and all that stuff. And I think they would have to start figuring that out in the games like this too, if they add in more CC type abilities. But if the enemy hits you, you get knocked out of the sheep. Also while you're sheeped, you get regenerated health. So if you were low health, it regens your health. So there's a kind of a give and take. Yes, you're taking them out of the fight as long as you don't hit them with AOE ability or do something along those lines. But your teammates can't do anything to help you out of it. They're just in it, but you come back out of it with more health than you went into it. You know what I mean? So that could be a fun way to, I think that that's the beauty of overprime, right? Like other than the health regen increase. Honestly, there's more times than not that I get mutant poed on a team fight and overprime. I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna take damage for a little bit because I can't hit me. Yeah, I think there's a lot of fun CCs, like we're calling them CCs. There's a lot of other ways to interact in the game and they're just not using them. And I would, I think the taunt, fears, disarms, like those ones especially, like a fear would be really neat. Again, I don't know who could use a fear, but I'm sure there's a way to make it. You know what would be cool actually? And this is maybe like Countess when she does her ultimate. People who are immediately in the area get a small fear because that's so scary. I don't know. There's ways to play around it. I think it would be really, really cool. And they just don't. It's just kind of the most boring parts of CC, which is just you got stunned. Yay. You know what would be fun too? Stitches does this in, here's the storm. I think it's Tom Kinch in League of Legends. I think if Rickters ultimate instead of the chesticles, the chesticles wrap around, pull them into his belly and then he can walk with them for a little bit of time. Yeah, I agree with that. That would be awesome. And you could proactively use it on your, because that's the thing with, at least in League, Tom Kinch can do it for allies or enemies. So he can use it to save or he can use it to grab somebody and they're taking damage while he's walking with them and he's slowed and all that stuff. But 100% that would be so sick actually on Rickter. That would make his kit feel, especially once he gets into over prime, that would make his whole thing feel unique and fun. Oh man, I hope somebody's listening. They need to, they need to. Oh, that would be so cool. That's such a good idea. Holy shit. You're ruining the enemy team. That's a better fear. Perfect. I think it's a great fear right there. When they said fear, the only one I could think of was Morgesh, but I think the only thing you could put a fear on her with her is maybe her swarm. I wonder if she turns into the insects. Maybe people run away from her. I don't know. I was thinking that he had with Countess, but on Morgesh is it for ultimate kill somebody because it's the giant right version of her? If that kills somebody, it fears the area around her. That would be nice. That to me was the place that I thought of a fear being implemented out of the Paragon heroes we know. I mean, Zinx, great. Instead of a bouncing stun, a bouncing fear. That's perfect. Let's just do that instead. No, but yeah. I think there's still plenty of opportunities for other forms of CC that have not been explored in Paragon over prime or predecessor. Yeah. I really like that on Morgesh because it incentivizes you to actually use your ultimate in a situation where it's a little bit dangerous for you because the way Morgesh works is you just run the fuck away from the fight and then you ult where nobody can see you and they die. If you have no idea where they are around their team, like you would have to be able to know where they are in their team that that fear from the ultimate is actually going to take effect. Yeah, I like that. I like that. Right, because you can try to use it more in team fights versus just trying to get a solo pick because you still would. Let's say for example you're in here 1v1 or whatever and you see them trying to back at the tower and they have enough, you can kill them with it. It's still effective. You should still press R, but in team fights it makes her ultimate that much more impactful for the rest of the team and feel that much more interesting and people that have to play around it and it shows a lot more skill expression, which I think is always good. It's a really good idea. Again, hopefully somebody's fucking listening and can put that in there. Who's not scared to make a change and make something happen. Horseman brings it up, but Atlas in spite is a pull, grab and a toss. And I think Atlas is a great version of new forms of CC. Skarner ultimate in League of Legends where he stabs into somebody, can drag them around the map for a couple of seconds. Also a super cool form of CC, right? Like these are options that have not been explored at all yet. And like Iran in ethereal has the grab and toss, right? So that's already there, but I would love to see more of those kind of things where even though Skarner ultimate is basically just a pull and a stun mixed in one, but it still feels unique, right? Yeah, it still feels unique in the way that it's executed. And I think that's the biggest thing is don't just give me, I throw a thing and they get stunned. Find a new way to make me stun people. Find a new way to make me do the CC I've already been doing in a different way. And I think Mako shows a way to do that, right? Like the ball going out there and stunning people when it explodes, picking them up and stunning them when it explodes. It's a stun, but it's a very cool new form of stun, right? Like it's like a displacement, right? That's what I was gonna say. A displacement stun, like a Gragas ultimate where it does a big AoE cask explode that knocks people in various directions. You can knock them to you. You can knock them away from you. He said this, he was just complaining about how it's our mind yesterday, so. But that's, but I see that's the thing is I do, how am I, it's really interesting that a howitzer can do that knock up and create the chaos that he can do. The problem is, is that all of it, the rest of his kit creates so much safety as a mage that it's like, it's more annoying, but it's still really impressive when you go up against a howitzer that knows what they're doing and they utilize the mind in either a disengage or as a way to create displacement from the rest of their team or whatever. It's a very, very cool ability. It just, in that instance, it drives me nuts because he can also do all the other stuff that makes him so annoying. But anyway, I think we've probably hit on everything and I think it gave us a really good question. I hope that, again, one of the devs is listening to this and has some balls about them and can make something new and unique come to fruition here. I think Mako is a good example of some of that, but I do think that a lot of the characters that haven't been released yet can make some of these things happen or characters that are already out. Like I would love to see Wraith get a rework. Wraith right now is so boring to me. I wish she was different. A lot of people disagree with that. I know, but it was just me. His ultimate's stupid. It's so boring. Oh, that's the problem is he's a carry that has three utility abilities. Yeah, he's boring. Right, but like it's, if the abilities did damage, you'd have a lot more priority in his lane and a lot more fun mechanics to play around and he doesn't because three of his abilities don't do damage. I think if you could make his other abilities deal damage, that would allow you to decrease the power of his snipe, which can be insanely oppressive. So that would be the only way I would agree to that at all. If you know if to snipe a little bit. Let's move on to the next question here. Coming from Crimson Rage, question all star in the FTM chat. By the way, guys, FTM chat is linked in the video description below. Check it out if you have any questions for us. Post it in there. We don't answer them in the discord. We answer them here. So don't expect an immediate answer if you put that question in the discord. Crimson Rage says, when should either game begin to heavily push focus on lore and world building and what do you think would be the best way to do so if you were in charge? For example, cinematics, events, et cetera. I like the way Ethereal did it. Ethereal brought the community in and had like a little competition for people to write lore and they ended up with some really good lore out of that. I think there are plenty of people and both the predecessor and the over prime has actually done quite a bit of work on their lore. They had, they have done world building. There is a world in over prime where all these heroes come from. They do all have backstories. They're not the same as Paragon's backstories. The only real predecessor lore we have is that it's predecessor. It, the events of predecessor happened before the events of Paragon. That's the only real lore that we have for bread. And that just hates Countess. And that Huntress hates Countess. I'm sorry, Kiera hates Countess. So I think they just need to leverage the fans. There are plenty of people that would love to just for free write tons of lore for both of these games. And so they have a resource right now that they can tap into and then maybe later down the line the cinematics and events and stuff. But right now they just need lore. There's still that guy on Reddit that's still doing the Chimera and FaZe ship postings on the Paragon subreddit. A long after fault died, he's still doing it. And I applaud him for his dedication to his craft. Okay. Every time I see one of those pop up, I'm like, damn, this guy has got more dedication than I have anything. Like, holy shit. Just get that guy in there, rain him in a little bit. But you know, put him out there, let him do his thing. It'll be great. I think I'm of the camp of if you're going to do lore, actually do lore. If you're not gonna, if you're, or don't do lore. That's like, just pick one. Like I'm okay if predecessor was like, you know what? We don't really need to focus on lore. Who cares? Like that's just not our shtick. Cool. That's fine for me. I don't need to know and understand why said characters are doing what they're doing. I don't ever need that personally. But if you're going to start some kind of narrative then put together a real narrative. Like actually put it together and make it make sense. I do think overprime does a pretty good job of their lore building. Like it's kind of subtle. It's not like, you know, I think league did it a fairly good way too. Like league for most of their time. There was some lore there. A lot of it was hinted at. You weren't really sure what was going on sometimes. But it was interesting. It made the game like, oh, okay. So that's why so-and-so doesn't like so-and-so or whatever or why voice lines work the way they do. And that's fine. That's okay. That's good lore building. It's a little bit more subtle. But I think that's the thing. It's like it feels like Pred hasn't committed to whether or not they want to do lore or they want to put time into doing the lore. And cinematics? Like what's cinematics? Like I don't know how many Pred cinematics they've done. Overprime's done cinematics and they've done some really cool, interesting cinematics. And it ties in with their lore, yeah. Yeah. And they're opening. Like I mean, I skip it now, but that's still one of like, when I first watched that cinematics. You can skip it? Yeah. When you guys introduced me to Overprime and I watched it, I was like, oh, like I was like, oh, dude, this is dark and kind of gritty and like, what's going on? Like seven. And like, it just made it feel interesting. And that's fine. And I like, again, ethereal is a really good example. It's tie in, but not like in your face, like beating you over the head. Lore, lore, lore, lore. I don't think it needs to go full RPG. Again, I think it can be subtle and fun. Make voice lines about it. You can have it affect skins and do stuff like that and tie those things in. But just pick whether you're going to do it or not. Don't half-ass it. If you're not going to do it, then that's fine. Just don't do it. Just don't be that part of your dev. And I think that's where I get annoyed is when it's like, it feels like, okay, you just make this the most basic of lore just so you can try to have an event. Fuck off. So to me, so the question, when should they begin it? Now, right now, right at this moment. But not, I'm not saying go whole hog. You shouldn't have cinematics out the gate. Unless you do them well. Oh, and I'm looking at you. You shouldn't have cinematics out the gate. You shouldn't have the big scaling events that's going on. You shouldn't have all of these things, but do something, right? Even if it's small, right? One story that like, so Huntress is the part, Kira. I just want to call her Huntress because that's her name in my head. She's the perfect example for this in that they started out her teaser by saying, this is a person that doesn't like Countess, right? And she's hunting after Countess. That's what her motivation is. Fantastic. That was a great little nugget of lore to come out of there, right? When Kira released, it doesn't need to be in the game. It can just be on your website that when you're talking about Kira, you just provide a couple paragraph, like description of like, Kira's here because Countess killed her family. Even rip off the Terra lore. Just swap out Terra with Kira and just call it a day. Like do something, right? That makes it just take that extra step forward that just does something that then can tie into your event of Kira hunting Countess, right? And all of those things that then can be attached to all of these little details, right? But don't, honestly, I would rather they don't do a heavy push all at one time. Do it over time. Make it feel natural. Make it feel like the world is being built as you're building it, right? And do these things that can help you slowly garner that attention to the lore. League of Legends is a prime example of this, right? Yes, they went through and kind of changed the fundamentals of their lore quite a while ago. But since then, as they do reword, they don't just go through and drop, like we dropped 50 pages of lore all at this moment. Go read it all, right? That doesn't work, right? They do like, this character got reworked. So we're going to touch on their lore and add a little bit to it and expand on it a little bit. Sorry, I'm just reading chat. Don't keep going. Ha ha ha! But so like their lore is being touched on and added to gradually over time as they world build more. And it makes it feel like it's being built around you rather than being thrown at you that it was built. And that's what sucks. And like they, where they need to do it now, over prime, they have the lore that's coming out with the characters. And it's all right. But they did that cinematic at the beginning and have done nothing with it. Yeah. That to me is where I'm sitting there like, you could have done, like what, what is this? Like I, my curiosity keeps going back to Takima, right? Like, tell me what's going on with Severog killing this tree and why everybody was trying to stop him. But come on, like let's, let's do that. Let's get those things going to understand more about these characters. I would say to Delay's point, I don't want lore to overshadow or take over in game dev, right? Like I don't think any of us are saying that, right? Like we want the game to be good first, but like don't pretend to have lore and then do nothing with it. And I think we are all kind of saying the same thing. It's like over prime has kind of leaned a little bit more into lore and has given us a little bit more with lore. They could do a little bit more and it would be great to get another cinematic. But again, I will sit here and this is for both games. I'll be like, you know what? Instead of making me a cinematic just keep making the game better. Like that's, I'm okay with that. Maybe if you're making the game better, you know, like you don't, I don't know. I just feels like it's, for predecessor, it feels like they are kind of like playing with the idea of lore, but they're not committing to it. It just feels like a tease and it's kind of like, what are you really doing? And then over prime, then you have lore, but they haven't really fleshed it out and aren't really continuously doing it. It's just something that has developed, but it's not like really strong yet. It's getting- The lore in over prime is there, but it feels disconnected from each other. Sure. Right? And so it's just kind of like these weird verticals of lore that don't quite fit in with each other yet. And that's what I would want to see more of from them is that that interconnection of all the lores together to Jolay's point of Minifive Jelly, Pred's event doesn't make any sense to Minifive Jelly do something, right? That's my point. It doesn't make any sense because they didn't do something about it. They didn't put the lore there. They didn't incentivize this weird of lore based event with any lore. And so it doesn't make sense. I'll go through this out here right now too. Let me skip the fucking over prime cinematic a little faster or just give me the option to not play it every time. I've heard so many times, the Kima, the will of vigorous life. And then I can finally fucking move on. Like, oh my God. At this point I hear it in my sleep sometimes. I'm just laying in bed and the Kima. Yes, the will of vigorous life. I don't know if it's that or something else, but they did say that they wanna put on where they can say don't show again as a toggle or something like that. But yeah, it is a bit much. I actually think of some of the lore, I think Muriel's lore is actually pretty cool. I think there's a lot of good, at least if you go on to over prime and you click on each of the champions, you get a little snippet of their lore and what they're motivated by, who they know, who they're connected to. And at least it doesn't change the game at all. Like, you don't have really unique voice lines, interactions between the champions and stuff like that, like you get in league. I think just might do that. I don't know if they do, but anyway. But at least it's something. At least there's something there. And then predecessor still has a lot to go if they want lore to mean something. So if they're going to make it mean something, then I think yeah, like Jelly said, maybe make it sooner than later, but not at the expense of gameplay. Like if you're just more focused on gameplay right now, then that's fine. Just don't pretend like you're doing lore at the same time. Theoretically, those should be two different teams. I realize that sometimes that's not the case, right? But theoretically, they should be two different teams that your lore team can say, here we did X thing, right? Here you go, put it in the game. I'm just saying they both have communities that are a vast resource that would be happy to write their lore for them. Hey, if you just tell the guy that he can have Chimera and Faes fall in love together, he will write all of your lore, I promise to you. I'll move on to the next question. Another one from Crimson Rage. Which game do you think allows players a greater skill expression either as a team or individually? I think that one is a simple, straight up, dry answer. Over Prime allows more individual skill expression. Predecessor allows a lot more team skill expression. 1000%. I see, I disagree. I think it's both Over Prime. I think that the- Really? Yeah, so I think team fights in Over Prime because there's a lot more maneuverability the time to kill isn't as, I mean, it can be really short, right? If you manage to put together a really strong wombo combo, which to me speaks to team expression, like if we'd come together as a team and really put together this moment, we can make something cool happen. But I also think that there's a lot more of like playing around cooldowns and understanding when certain cooldowns and abilities are available and which champions do what? In Over Prime, whereas in Predecessor, it's very rare, at least in the games that I've been in. Maybe I just haven't been in enough high skilled games. It's almost always like little skirmishes that have been here or there where somebody is not paying attention to the minimap and not understanding that a skirmish is taking place or is doing their own thing or whatever. And it just one person stepped out of line just a little too much because the vision fucking sucks in that game so bad that they just get blown up and die or the wombo combo is so strong on one team versus another team that everybody just dies that's in the combo. It's just, I don't know. Like watching that video that you put together with Raven and all that and seeing that everybody just die and like, what buttons did anybody on the enemy team get to press there? There's literally nothing they could have done to really prevent themselves in that moment from getting, it wasn't an out play. You just didn't get to play. And I think that there's an availability for that to happen in some cases, but it's so heavy to me in Predecessor where in Over Prime you can have those moments happen, but it's really things that the stars really have to align to be able to make those kinds of moments happen. And I think that's at least for me, more fun. And does that make sense? And so that's where I think I see what you're saying, but I think I think you're actually arguing more for the team skill expression in Predecessor than Over Prime by what you're saying. Because you all pressed one button, you hit a Q, Raven hit R and getting in hit R. Yeah, that's it. Our team was positioned properly in that fight. Their team was not positioned properly in that fight. Why were they positioned properly? Because they were lacking vision. They didn't know all of you. But that's not the point of the question, right? The team cohesion and the team play is better in Predecessor, right? Because you're able to do more with that team coordination. In Over Prime, there's an aspect that team fights almost turn into a slap fight because you're, yes, I land my Gideon R on everybody, but the fight's gonna go long enough that that Gideon R almost means nothing, right? Like, because everyone can reposition or do something with their abilities to make that change differently, right? And that's, to me, less fun because it's less, if my team got a good drop on somebody, it means way less in Over Prime than it does on Predecessor. Yeah, and I think in just positioning, like if your team positions well in Predecessor, then you will win that fight. If somebody steps out of position on your team, it doesn't have to be you, then they fuck it up and then you lose the team fight. So I think just... So that's solo expression, not team expression, because if one person on your team does something that's their solo choice to move a little bit too far forward and then you just get, I don't know, I see what you guys are saying. I just, I think my issue with Predecessor is always that it's never, to me it's not skill expression to just hit your buttons at the same time. There's not necessarily always, I'm not saying that there's no coordination at all. I'm not saying that. Like I do think that there are coordinated team fights that happen or coordinated opportunities where they're moving around together and playing around the little bit of vision they do have. It just doesn't feel like there's a skill expression in there, it's just a... Everybody dies so fast in Predecessor, you don't have to be skilled to press your one button and get a pentakill. That's to me, that's not a skill expression. That's just the way that the team operates or that's the way the deaths operate in the game personally. That's how I look at it. Everybody just dies. You press R, they die. Like if you get onto one guy and you hit your R button, they're probably gonna die. And maybe there's something that people really enjoy about that, but for me, it's not a skill expression. That's just how strong certain abilities and items or certain characters get to the point where they can just do that. And then to me, that's more frustrating than it is fun and it's not a skill, it's just... The example you used though, their team was out of position. We were in a good position to capitalize on that. Our grocks landed a really good pull, which I was able to capitalize on with a really good seismic assault into a bomb. The grocks also altered and then the keyer was able to jump in and also ult on top of all of them. So that wasn't just one ability to wipe the entire team. That was a combination. It wouldn't have led to Bellica, which wouldn't have led to Kira. And that's team expression. That's not individual expression. Maybe I use that one example poorly. I apologize. That skill layering is a skill expression, but I don't think that that's necessarily a Kudo 2 predecessor. I think that's just, it happened to work out. I don't think that most games work that way in Pred. That was a unique situation that was really cool, but I don't think it happens that often. No games work like that in Over Prime. If I land a grocks pull into a Bellica knockup and then I go in there with Murdoch, right? Yeah. That same combo is not going to happen because the enemy team will still be able to do things afterwards that make my combo mean less. Okay. So then I guess we can make an argument that neither one has team skill expression. I think Predacessor is a really good team skill expression just. Yeah. I just... I think whether you win or lose is far more dependent on your team and Predacessor than Over Prime. I think Over Prime, you can individually carry a game if you are good enough. You cannot do that in Predacessor. I mean, you can if the skill variance is big enough, of course, but you really need your team to play well in Predacessor in order for you to win. Whereas you don't really need your team that much in Over Prime. I say I still disagree. I think, well, I think both games are so dependent on how good your jungler is and how well the team plays around your jungler. But I think in Pred, your jungler can solo carry. Like we saw that one game where you got just outjungled and their jungler was able to make it to where every lane was not able to play the game very well. And that's, to me, that's a solo expression. There's no team environment there. That's that one solo play. In that game though, I would not say that Kalari was the reason for her team being successful. Her team capitalized on Kalari being ahead. Right, we know that Kalari did not solo carry that game. Her team benefited and her team became better than us because her team was playing more cohesively than we were. So, okay, so when do you, when do you, where's the line of solo carry to team coordination around somebody doing things individually that puts their team ahead? Like I don't know where we played against. Yeah. He was a solo carry character. His team had played better around him. Their team would have won, but he was playing solo better than his team was playing cohesively. We played better as a team, so we won that game. He's the perfect example of the difference between the two things. Right, but you know, again, I don't understand where the line is being drawn and where's the tilting point? Like, it's like, and which game tilts that one way or the other better? I still think that we are mostly in agreeance that in overprime, you have a lot more solo skill expression. I'm not saying that solo wins you the game, but I think you can have skills expressed in a solo situation more in overprime than you can in predecessor. Not that it doesn't happen in predecessor. It just is not as frequent of an experience. I don't feel like I have as much control over making things happen sometimes in predecessor versus in overprime, but I think the team environment, I don't know, man, this is a complicated question. I don't know where the line is drawn of like, I performed really well and I have great skill expression within my champion, but it might not mean that we win just because I'm really good at being able to play my champion by myself versus, you know what I mean? And in one game or the other, like I just don't know where that line is drawn and maybe I'm misunderstanding the question. That's why we have multiple people on this show because we have multiple opinions on this stuff. I guess. I just think that the time to kill is so short in predecessor. It's hard to tell whether or not that is a singular skill expression or a team expression of skill coming together and making wombo combos happen or whatever. It just, I don't know, vision I think plays a large part of it. I think just map movement plays a huge part of it. Like who showed up first and who didn't? Like, I mean that there could be arguments that that's not the team playing around it. It's like the middling understanding that he needs to be there to be able to create the man advantage and all that stuff. That's solo skill expression, not team expression. You know, and so it's like, where do you cut off? Where it becomes team cohesiveness and making an expressive play? Actually, I think now that I think about it more, your highlight clip is showing that like the grucks pull into the queue knockup into this like those things came together as a team and showed your all individual skills coming together as one cohesive skill expression. I don't think that happens that often though in predecessor versus in over prime. Even if you end up not wiping the whole team, I do think that there's opportunity where each person's individual skill can be expressed in the team environment more often. Does that make sense? Maybe I explain it better. It makes sense, but I think we're just, we're just looking at it from different angles. The way I look at it is if the teams have to position, if like the teams have to position correctly in order to fight, then I think that's team skill expression. Over prime, you don't have to be positioned completely correct. I mean, of course you can't be stupid out of position, but you don't have to be completely 100% in great position for when a team fight starts to win that team fight. As long as one person is laying it down, you're going to win. But in predecessor, everybody has to be in their proper position if you're going to win that team fight because if they're not, somebody's going to get picked like that and then it's going to, you're going to get rolled. And I still think that's the fault of the solo, not as the team. No, you're... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you're relying on one person to be individually good. Yes. But your team, it's more affecting your team than it is the solo in that particular case. Right. If you're out of position, if you take one person and pull them out of position in over prime and the other four are in position, that team fight still is likely to be just fine for that team. If you pull the one person out of a team fight in predecessor, that team fight is going to be drastically different because that one person's out of position, right? So the team play matters more because if you're not playing with your team cohesively and correctly, you will lose harder. But that's not the question. It's greater skill expression. That was a question. Not which team has better position. If one person on your team in predecessor sucks and they're out of position, then your team is going to lose. Okay. Is that what I mean? I'll agree to that. That's true. I mean, I still think that is part of your team. That's part of your team. Yeah, yeah. Your team skill is dependent on everybody, not just whatever. Let's move on from this question. Fox kind of hit it a little bit. And then yes, please, let's move on. But to my point, the longer time to kill an OP allows more team plays, but that doesn't necessarily mean team synergy. And I think that's where I was saying is it's not team synergy is showing skill expression. It's just, I don't know. But synergy is team expression. That's the whole point. Well, no, it's not, what? No, it's not. It's skill expression. If you're not playing synergized with your team, are you really a team at that point? Are you five individuals? No, the question was around skill expression. And if you're not synergized with your team. Yeah. Your team expression is zero. Your individual expression is all of it. Okay. Right. Okay, so, but to have good team skill expression, you need everybody to have, you need synergy, right? Are we agreeing in that aspect? Okay. So time to kill, I think has a big part on whether or not you're really getting synergy versus just I pressed two buttons at the same time as somebody else pressing two buttons, whether we're on the same page or not, or we're both good at the game or not good at the game. Well, that's where you're deferring between luck and synergy. I'm talking about skill and being able to express your skill in the game. No, if I pressed the same button at the same time as somebody else, if Grux pulls and I press bellica knock up at the same time, just because I pressed the button at the same time, that's pure luck. That's not, if Grux didn't pull, it wouldn't mean anything, right? Synergy is my Grux saying I'm going to pull, okay, when I see the pull activate, then I'm knocking them up. Right. That team expression is using that synergy to benefit your team. If you have five people that are not playing in synergy with each other, you have five individuals expressing their skill. That's the difference between individual skill expression and team skill expression. Which you can get away with an overprime, you can't really get away with that in print. Yes. I guess what I was getting at was that in overprime, because time to kill is not so low, you have opportunity to showcase team skill expression. Whereas in predecessor, because people die so fast, there's not really, to me, there's not really an expression of skill in that team fight. It was just... I think team fights in overprime are more fun, just overall, because there is that a much higher time to kill, but I don't think they're team skill expressive. Okay. I just think they're more fun. Let's move on to the next question though. This one's coming from Jacka, because I made a note what a targetable means. If not, they should release their own terms and have detailed documentation about their terms. He is, of course, referring to Kira's E, which states that she is untargetable. However, I think most of us, as soon as we read that, take that as she has iframes during her dash, much like Countess does in Shadow Slip, but that is not how it works. To be honest, I am still not 100% sure what the untargetable means. Can you just not target her with like a lock-on ability or what? You would think that if you Shadow Slip, as a tower is loading up, or if you E and do her dash, as a tower is loading up and shot, that tower should not be able to target you, you shouldn't be hit. However, the tower will fucking hit you, no matter. I sit there in the practice mode underneath the tower with Kira just dashing my ass off and never, ever was able to, you would think, I did it enough times where I should have done it by accident if it was possible. And yeah, never happened. To answer the question, I don't think they know what untargetable means. And I, or they're just making up their own version of what untargetable means because, yeah. I can't see anybody using that. I haven't seen anyone use it to quote unquote dodge an ability that wouldn't, you couldn't just sidestep anyway, because everything is targeted, most of them are skill shots. So if you aim like a rock and you throw it and she dashes, does she just not get hit by the rock? I don't think so. It seems like it doesn't work that way. I don't, it's really weird. And it does, and it seems very niche in where you would be able to be untargetable. Question marks. And it's such a short dash anyway that, okay, I couldn't target her for half a second. Oh, I can target her again. Like, I don't know. Maybe it would let you dash away from accountants ultimate. So she would be able to target you. I, I believe you can, if, and like you said, it's so short that the time that this actually occurs is weird, but I feel like there have been multiple instances where an AOE ability on the ground, how it's her mind is a perfect example, right? That I'm dashed and I'm over the AOE definitively. This should hit me and it goes off and nothing happens. Hmm, right? That I am untargetable from, from the things that are in the environment. I think untargetable in a 3D MOBA is a bad word to use to describe this effect because untargetable sounds like I can't click them. And there are a lot of abilities that are not me clicking on them in these games, right? So untargetable seems like a very confusing word to use because it, does it mean they just can't click on me? Does it mean that I'm not affected by abilities on the ground while I'm in this ability? Does it mean whatever it is? Because theoretically, if I'm untargetable, if there are two of us under tower and I'm, I'm Kira Mangus is a rampage. I have tower aggro and I press my E, tower aggro should switch onto Mangus. Correct. I don't, right? It does that. And I don't, I don't believe that it does that. And that's, that's where the confusion comes from. Because I'd love to see them explain this. And further than untargetable specifically, if you're introducing a new mechanic into your game, I don't care if it's in a different game, explain your mechanic. Yeah. Explain yourself. Because it's, we need to, yeah, we need to know how it's going to be effective in this. Otherwise we have this exact question where it's like, wait, I think I know what untargetable means. Why isn't it working the way I expect it to work? Then you're like beating it because you put yourself into a situation where you're like, oh, I'm just going to drop tower aggro because I go untargetable when I hit E. Whoa. I just died to the tower because it stayed targeting me. Like, I'm going to immune this gadget mind that's on my head. No, you're not. No, you're not. No, you don't. Exactly. Like what? It's already on your head. It's already targeted you. Of untargetable in this instance. We're, we're, we're a buzzword. This is, it's not a, it's not a buzzword. It's an interaction in a video game. Yeah. If we're not explaining a mechanic that is a, that is an actual buzzword in the, in the ability, like it shows up as a different color and everything. And they didn't really explain what it does. You would, you would expect that from pretty much every game, even like little roguelikes and stuff like that. Like you can usually hover over that and like see what it does. This is similar to what I said about Revenant's basic attack when he was coming out, right? That they didn't explain his basic attack in the initial post for what his abilities do. But it's unique and different. You need to explain that that's different to people that you have to assume everybody knows nothing, right? So you're introducing untargetable. Nobody else has untargetable in their kits. So this is a brand new mechanics of the game. Explain how it functions in your game, even if it's different from other games, especially if it's different from other games. But if it's the same, also still explain it because you have to assume everybody, this is the baby's first MOBA, what does untargetable mean? Yeah. Yeah. They definitely could have done a better job with that and hopefully they will in the future, but they won't if nobody ever complains about it. So I'm glad we're complaining about it a bit. I would love to see a section on their website that goes through every term for these abilities and describes what their effect is. Even a stun, like let people know what a stun is, let people know what suppress is, let people know. Rooted, stunned, silenced, all the things. They go through every single effect on an enemy and say what that thing does. Yep. Agreed. All right, yeah, that closes it out. That's all the questions. So that's gonna bring us to the end of the show tonight. Been a pretty long one, been a pretty fun one, but I've enjoyed myself on all about you guys, but let's start closing it out with our final comments. Jedi, where can people find you and anything you wanna say to wrap it up? Final comments, I guess. I think the biggest thing for me, the key takeaways, especially coming from a more casual player's standpoint, is I do think that predecessor has been doing a good job. Each patch has been good. There's nothing egregious each time. Kiro has been a blast at having being added into the game. I do think that she's fun. She's not dramatic entrance in. We can go into how she's very similar to something else that exists in the universe, but overall I think she was fun. I enjoyed playing her this week and I'm excited to see what she does. And then same thing with Over Prime. I think Over Prime has been the most boring for me to play, not in isolation. Like a few games here and there are super fun, but it's like over longevity. It's like I can't make it my main game because the macro part of it is just not fun. So I'm really looking forward to seeing what innovations they come up with because it's not just gonna be good enough to be pretty and it's a very pretty game. It's a very cool looking game, but it doesn't have that meat inside of it. It's just, I don't know. So as far as where you can find me, you can find me out here on YouTube. I think I'm more active in Discord than I am almost anywhere else right now, but you can still follow me on Twitch if you want to and you can follow me on Twitter. I do respond to people when they send me messages. I try to be interactive when new stuff gets put out there and I sometimes post memes, but you'll mostly find me here on FTM. Joe these? Yeah, I mean, you can look forward to the monthly recap for ethereal coming out this week. It is the last week of the month. So that will have some news in it. And you can follow me. I said at the beginning that we don't have nothing for ethereal. I'm sorry. But you can follow me on Twitch and YouTube because I will definitively be streaming this week because veiled experts is this week. So jazz for veiled experts. Well, man, probably for that. Yeah. So excited. So yeah, follow me on Twitch and YouTube because I'll be streaming there for sure. And yeah, make sure you watch the monthly recap for ethereal. And that's it for me. What about to use a mangoose? I just same thing. I'll be playing veiled experts this week. Should be a good time. We have a really good time in that game. Really fun. Come out and watch it. Play it yourself. Hit us up. It'd be super fun. Good time. But that is going to wrap it up. I appreciate everybody coming out tonight. Again, sorry I didn't have anything for ethereal this week. But why are you sorry? Yeah, you should be sorry, man. I am apologizing. All right. I'm apologizing. Mangoose is the one holding back console news, guys. Everybody knows. Mangoose is the reason console hasn't come out for these games yet. It's true. Yeah, if Mangoose doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist. It's true. Yeah, that's also the funny thing. Both JVN and Blood Hunter are in the Patreon for ethereal and know the news that's coming out. So like these guys are already ridiculous. Yeah, oh, there you go. That's a good plug. If you want news about ethereal, join their Patreon. You want including early access to all kind of like. Yeah, anyway. All right, right on. Yep. For now, this is the four of the minions crew signing off. You guys have a good one. The X they should do more certificates just like inherently as games. They just give those certificates out for a good good good boy. Good to each other. Yeah, be nice to each other. Ernest.