 How do I do that? Um, yep, I believe it's reporting to the cloud now. There we go. Not that I'm a sucker. Hi there. Hi there. Hilda's a guest. Hilda's a guest. Let me check my, my email. I emailed the contractor again, uh, yesterday and. Um, He's a really eager beaver. Yeah. I do not see anything. Hi, Jennifer. Oh hi, Rita. Where are you? I'm in Edmunds, Washington. Over there. That's right. We went this weekend. Yeah. And you can see the water down there. Oh God. I'm jealous. Cause my mom doesn't have a wife. So it'd be nice to be. And it's someplace different. Oh my God. I'm a little tired of the wall four walls of my house. Right, right. Okay. Oh yes. Okay. So that's our agenda. That's just the agenda. Yeah. Yeah. So I officially call to order. Is everybody here? Uh, It seems that we have a quorum here. I'm going to stop. I'm going to just, I'm going to step out in a minute. I just emailed the, um, The contractor for 19 the fall in. Okay. And I even, he hasn't responded, but he said he was going to be here. Um, last week he emailed me and said he'd be here. I told him that. I told them that if they weren't going to show that we were just denied the application, I mean, Rob more said as much, you know, there's not much the commission can do. So. Right. So lingering questions. Good. Well, we had questions. Yeah. Always. This is. Full professors used to get 10 minutes and assistant professors would get 20 minutes. How long do no show contractors get. 20 minutes. We only gave our professors five and 10. Oh my God. They sure have changed. Yeah. Alrighty. Well, do we go to the public portion of the meeting and then come back if he's late? You could. Uh, yeah. Okay. That's very generous. Yeah. Well, I will officially call the meeting to order. Um, I believe that, um, Nate has another engagement. So he will be handing the meeting over to Ben. Yep. Yeah. I'm going to step away now. I'll, um, leave my computer on. Okay. Thanks everyone. Okay. Thanks, Nate. Hi, Ben. Hi there. Oh, you're actually a town hall. Yeah. Yeah. I've been working in the office since June 1st now. So. Oh, wow. Do you have it all to yourself? Uh, no, there's, there's some other people here. It's, uh, it's probably at like three quarters staffing right now. And do you wear a mask when you're in a public space? It's pretty weird. No, I'm not. I put on a mask. Yeah. It's pretty second nature at this point. And even, we don't really have face-to-face meetings either. I'm still like, I'll zoom if I'm talking to Chris or Rob like right next door. That's amazing. Yeah, it works. But it's kind of weird. You can often hear their voice and then the delay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's sometimes good to be able to, uh, Go to an office and work. There's fewer distractions. Yeah, exactly. So I guess we'll do that. We'll assume that, um, That the public part of the hearing is not going to happen. Um, but we can go back to it if the contractor does come. So, uh, so this shouldn't, the meeting shouldn't take too long. The portion, um, I don't have any announcements. Okay. You know, I don't know if Bruce had any more questions about, uh, I don't know. Amherst media. This way. Um, Bruce on, I saw Bruce. See Bruce. Oh, you know, Bruce has his, uh, microphone off. I did that now. I'm good. Okay. Do you have any other questions about Amherst media? Well, uh, not really, although, uh, I forgot to ask about the pedantic, uh, the pedantry associated with that that, uh, with this Kendrick property thing that we're looking at. Is there a, is there a, um, a time, a clock that's been set in motion that causes us to have to act. Um, I mean, is there any, there's no cleverness that this guy is performing. Is it that he just, by not showing up, but vice by starting the. Are we in a position where we have to deny this meeting or do we inadvertently cause something to happen? That's the question that arises from that. Oh, no. Maybe something, if he hasn't shown up at the meetings, he's put in an application, we can deny the certificate, which is different, kind of the opposite with what they were talking about with Amherst Media. We haven't continued this meeting for two hearings or anything because it was on the agenda two or three meetings ago, have we? No, because we convened to act upon it and he wasn't here. Yeah, but we kind of opened the public, but we didn't, we didn't continue it as well, I guess. Did we actually continue it or did we just let it flow from one date to another? I believe we continued because we didn't advertise, re-advertise the public hearing and do the mailings again. I think it was a continued... Well, we're... I guess what I'm thinking we do is continue with the public portion of the meeting and if when we finish that, I'm giving him the opportunity to come late, if he has not come by the end, then we will officially vote to deny the certificate and close the application. And we will deny, I mean, we'll talk about it when we get there, but I would vote to deny because questions that we've raised that Nate has conveyed to him have not been answered. Correct. And I would just think the fact that somebody doesn't show, you know, the town has incurred the cost of advertising. Yeah, but I think that Bruce, having possibly been slightly unnerved by the abutter's letters, is thinking very legally. Yeah, no, no, no. We have to deny it, but I think we can deny it on the basis that we have questions that are all resolved. I think we can also deny it just because he hasn't shown. Yes. Yeah. But so we will officially deny it and close it out of the application. Okay. And, Marianne, if you think I'm starting to think legally, you should run away. Okay. And in terms of Amherst media, there's really, it's, it doesn't concern the commission at the moment. Yeah. And I think it won't. I think it won't either. I think it's an old chain of events. Right. That we are not involved in. Exactly. Except to learn from the, the experience. God, I don't know what I would like to say. We don't trust people. Yeah. But it does. It does turn out that in. There's a hidden in the bylaw of this, the state bylaw for local historic district commissions. It's something that the town has never done ever before. But I would say going forward. The town attorney said. That any time. An application is continued to another meeting and the decision won't be made within 60 days. We will have the applicant sign a form. Yeah. Yeah. So that. Yeah. Okay. So I guess. Ben, I would turn it. Over to you. To take the public items. Yeah, certainly. So. We had discussed. Our previous meeting. Adding a legal ad fee. For future applications. And there are some emails bounced around the planning department about how exactly to institute that. So I think. You know, our previous discussion, we were talking about, you know, I think we had. Well, we had settled on $50. I will say, I think. To like actually institute this as well as the exclusions, it would need to be. Like an advertised public hearing that people vote on. So I don't think we can actually vote on. Anything now, but we can certainly discuss. Anything that's advertised with these agenda items. In future date, but. So. So the legal ad fee. Can is something we can do. And I guess we had discussed whether it needs to be in the rules and regulations or the bylaw. And, you know, Chris breast drop and Nate. And Rob Mora indicated it. It doesn't necessarily even have to show up in the rules and regulations. It can just be, you know, a checklist item on the application. And that's something that we do internally, like the inspection, the permit. People who process permits here, we'll just, you know, need that check to move it forward. And, but if we do want to have it written in the rules and regulations, Nate provided some example language here. The commission establishes a legal ad fee paid by an applicant to help cover the cost of publishing the legal notice. And the daily Hampshire gives that the fee of $50 shall be collected at the time of application. And it's going to require for an application to be considered complete and reviewed by the commission. So. I think also we had a discussed. At the last meeting, like providing a list of, you know, like maybe just like a hardship exemption. Or. Yes. So if there's other language we want to put in there, we can do that as well. Yeah. I would agree. I would definitely want to see a hardship. I feel like if. I don't know somebody. Yeah. I would say that. I would say that. You know, I would say that it's a minor repair that I would hate for them to have to spend $50. Yeah. In fact, I would break that out. I mean, I think there are two kinds of exemptions I want to say. One is a genuine hardship. Exemption. And we talked about that, you know, some examples of that at our last meeting. And the other is, you know, I think I would say something like. I wouldn't know how to quite say this. Yeah. I would say it's a minor change. Let's say it's something that will is estimated across. Under 100. Or 150. You know, something that small. They have to pay 50 bucks. Right. It's going to really annoy our neighbors. Exactly. It would. However, I wonder if you should also put just a little when you say. Yeah. Yeah. That's an excellent. Yes. Yeah. I agree. I think this is not a profit center for the town. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So this is the incredible costs. To the town for. Yeah. But they, it says that. Oh, okay. Cover the cost of publishing. Yeah. You could decide. It's a considerable cost to the town. I think that's what. Or maybe if you said help defray, because it may not cover the whole cost. Well, that's what it helps for. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You could say help cover or defray, but I think they're equivalent. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. A question though. On these. First of all, so far as. Well, any, any hardship. Thing we'd have to say, well, who's going to determine that hardship. And clearly the answer is. The town, not the us. Because. It doesn't get to us. Until the application has been made. And this is pre-applicant. This is part of the application process. So if we're talking about. The determination of hardship, it's going to be done by the building commissioner. Yeah. And the building commissioner has already exhibited. A certain understandable. Reluctance to get too far into the weeds on this. Now we've given. What's follows the exclusions. So we've already done that. I think the concern raised about. Matters that costs less than a hundred or a hundred. You know, don't cost much because we've, we've handled that by. Right. Excluding them. So I think if. I. It becomes difficult. I don't know how you would make the hardship thing work. I mean. I mean, I, I, I. It becomes difficult. I didn't know how you would make the hardship thing work. Anybody got any ideas as to how it would work? Oops. Would there be an arbitrary thinking there would be an arbitrary cut off. Or. Or would there be a different amount of a different fee, depending upon circumstances? I'm. It's such a, but it's, it's so indeterminate right now. I'm not sure what you're looking at. It's 50 bucks. I mean, I, I think that if we start trying to. Cut and slice this, it'll, it'll just become impossible. I would think so too. Yeah. I'm trying to think it would be, you know, we'd have to verify income somehow possibly. That's a. Can be a complicated process. Assuming that if anybody had work under $250, they wouldn't probably be coming. They wouldn't need to know that we have the complete list yet. I mean, we just have, we just have a list of minor items that have come before us. So I don't, even if somebody's getting a new tap or something on their chimney, it's, I don't. Yeah. My sense is that we'll pick this up progressively because if somebody comes along and has to pay a hundred. A fee and, and, and the complaint is raised at town hall or. Say one of you folks on the commission who live locally and run into people much more, for example, than Jim and I might, because we're outliers geographically on this. They'll say, you know, good Lord, you know, I have to pay 50 bucks and I'm doing this. And so the, the feedback will happen through those processes. And then we'll find out, oh, there is a couple more things that we might add to this exclusion list. So I think that it's a, it's a, you know, it's an evolving process. We should think of it in those terms, right? And try to imagine that we can solve the whole problem. Anticipate them. Right now. I think we'll just trip over ourselves trying. But I don't think it's, it's fair to just have it open ended that when you bump into someone and, and talk and chat about it, that a fee gets determined out of an informal process like that. Well, it's not determined by that. It's, it's feedback. It's part of the feedback mechanism, whether they talk to you or whether they talk to the town. However, it's handled. There's a feedback process that the commission might have inched and might decide, well, yes, that's true. There's a couple of instances here that really are unnecessarily hard and we'll, and then we, we take steps to add them to the exclusion list. But what would then happen is we would hear about it from Rob Moore's office. Most likely. Yes. It wouldn't come to us until the next month. Right. We then have to get the language. That would be another month. I wonder, I wonder if you could solve this simply by just saying, if the cost is less than so, $250 or. No, you can't do it that way. That's true. It's an aesthetic thing to you. That's true. Sorry. I mean, I guess we. For now we leave it, you know, we've tried to make it as. Unburden some as possible. The town. You know, Revenue is down taxes are down with everything that's going on and that we really felt we needed to. You know, help to unburden the town as much as we could without overly burdening the applicant. So we did ask to put a bit more. I can't, the font is small. So I can't say. Okay. Here I can zoom in. You know, a bit more explanatory language. What? Initially it was recommended that they pay, I think 75 to 100. So we did lower it. We did lower it. We did lower it. We did lower it. We did lower it. We did lower it. We did lower it. We did lower it. I know the pushback. That we had with the. The fee, the rental permit fee. By, you know, By single house rentals. Right. They don't get much about it. We really heard a lot about that. So I'm just imagining. You know, the give and take that we get. Yeah. Okay. So I'm just going to say. The legal ad fee. Yeah. The legal ad fee. The language about why we're doing this. Is that. The legal ad fee. Yeah. Go. Yes. Okay. The commission establishes a legal ad fee paid by an applicant to help cover the cost of publishing the legal notice. I would say the considerable costs to the town. Okay. I really would because. You know, that helps people. Otherwise people aren't, aren't going to. Imagine that. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just the legal ad fee. It's the mailing as well. They're going to be pissed off. Yeah. So it's to help cover the car. The considerable cost to the town. Instead of costs of publishing the legal notice in the Hampshire. That's right. And then the rest there. Of publishing the legal notice. Okay. That's a good way. Okay. I guess there's a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everything's going up. You know, again, this isn't like a parking ticket. It's not a revenue. Generating. Yeah. And on that, on that note, would it be better just to call it an application fee, as opposed to explicitly like a legal ad? Do we have an application thing? Uh, currently no. I think you're, I think you're right, Ben. I think it would. It would be better to call it an application fee, not a legal ad fee. Okay. So then it becomes a considerable cost to the town. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But what Ben's saying, Marianne, is that the commission establishes a, an application fee as opposed to a legal ad fee. But what he's suggesting is that in consistent with your wording, the adjective that describes the fee beforehand also changes. And I think he's right. Yes. Yes. That's right. But then it means that it's not just publishing the legal notice in the, in the daily Hampshire. Considerable. Administration of handling. The. Proposal. Right. Letters have to be sent to a butters. The handling the proposal. And of publishing the legal notice. Yeah, we don't, we don't have to say that. I don't think. I do. I think so. I think all of this is public relations. I really do. I agree. I was actually very shocked that it was as expensive. To the town. And that was very helpful. And I think people are just not in the loop. And so that wording is necessary. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I had no idea cost the town before this. So, so I mean, I think, I think those of you who are in the town hall. You know what it costs. And so. No, the impact on people who have to pay something. To do something. That we're asking them to do. Right. And they say, I didn't know that I voted for this. And what we're looking at is not an editable version of the wording. Correct. I think it's easily editable. Yes. Well, if it's a PDF. It's not. Change it right here on the screen. Yeah. I want to change it right here on the screen. Yeah. I want to change it right here on the screen. Yeah. I want to change it right here on the screen. Yeah. That's a good idea. Let's see. Do I have this saved somewhere? Oh yeah, I do. Okay. Let's see. I'll reshare my screen. So new share. And then LHD. Cool. Okay. So this is. Oops. What did I just do? Hi. Come back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hi. Come back. We lost the. There. Okay. Yep. So this is the same exact thing, but in a Word document. So very good. So let's do Mary Ann's. Mary Ann's first. I have to mute for just a minute. Keep talking. Yeah. Application fee. The commission establishes an application. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to put that before the word fees as well. Yeah. Yep. And that possibly should be capitalized. Don't you think? Yeah. Yeah. So cover the considerable. Considerable. Costs to the town. I would take out the word considerable. Yeah. That's that's subjective. What's considerable. Okay. To cover the cost of the town. Yeah. To cover the cost of administering. The application. Right. And then we have the language publishing, whatever it is about the. In the daily Hampshire because that. Those, those are the two major things. Yeah. I'm saying publish. Publishing the, what do you publish? The hearing notice. Notice. Yeah. The notice. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I, I, I, Peggy, I think that considerable. Is kind of important because it was when I heard the sum. That I was impressed that this should be if it's just the cost, it could be very petty and it's not going to be the public relations thing. That we're hoping. To clarify here. So in some ways, it should be somehow emphasize that this is a lot of money. It's costing the town. Yeah. It's, it's a lot by any, it's not really subjective. It's a lot of, it wasn't it. How much was it been. It's like $500. I agree, Karen. Yeah. Yeah. If somebody came back, you know, like on fearing street, 100 fearing street came back three times and they had to post three times. So it was like $1,500 for that one. Yeah. I wonder if, like, defray, I know the help is in there, but defray might indicate that we're not, it's not nearly covered. It's not nearly covering it. I don't know if there's another. That's a good. I like defray better than. Stronger. That's clear. It's much clearer. Okay. Okay. I hope to frame the costs. So those of you that. Advocates of considerable is helped to fray. Okay. Or is considerable. No, I think that that does it the fray mean. I don't know. I would feel all right getting this if I had to. Before the word fees above that paragraph, you want to put application fee. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Okay. But it says application fee. Yeah, no, it's okay. Okay. You take it off. Well, the, the, the, the first application fee at the top is really for the purpose of the conch, the discussion that we're having. And the second application fee is the wording that might or might not go into the rules and regulations. Then I'd be wanted in the rules and regulations. I think it probably should be given the amount of effort that you all have put into crafting it from my point of view. I don't care because I'm much more. Lucy goosey about this, I think so. So I'm not the one to drive this bus. I think it should be in the rules and regulations. I do too. And again, you're right, Bruce. It's because we're going to hear from our neighbors. So, right. Yeah. And so we're going to say it's in the rules and regulations. Right. Just look it up or, you know, if you, because they might have other things that they're looking at the rules and regulations will probably not, but if they do, they'll find it. If they object, they will find a reason to object. Yeah. And we can, this is, this is a little more than just basically what this does, Ben, is that it puts the, the application fee at the doorstep of the commission. And not at the doorstep of the building commissioner. So I think you, you all would probably, you all would probably argue for doing this. And push us to accordingly. Gotcha. That's what I would do if I were you. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. Okay. Sounds good. And again, you're saying we don't vote on this because it will be a public meeting and then it'll be on the agenda. Yeah. I believe so. Yep. Okay. So, yeah, and we can move on to talking about our exclusions. Let me see if any, if the gentleman, if anyone's here from. No, it doesn't look like no one is here yet. Okay. You guys are amazing. Yeah. That's what I was laid back. Yeah. Yeah. They changed their mind, you know. Yeah, exactly. Maybe. Yeah. Tell us. So then the other topic for today was about, um, additional exclusions. To add to, um, Things that should be exempt from review. Okay. And I know that. You know, I'm not sure if it's, uh, Repairing stairwells or anything you might do. With, uh, Support for a deck or are there any. In a small things. That we could exclude or do we really want. Look at every step that they, well, we may, I think we may want to look at every step. I think unless it can be clearly, uh, It can be, it can be a little or a lot. Yeah. I think by the way, flu has an E on the end of it. Oh yeah. This would be like influenza. Okay. There we go. It's a, it's a cap. You're aware when you're sick. Again, in the, in the, in the, uh, Yeah. All righty. So then we can add to this later. This is what, this is similar to the one that came up a few weeks ago or months ago. I think there's a flu. Yes. Okay. Is this going to be public? I mean, this is going to be on some piece of paper. That applicants get. Yep. Um, well, this will be added to the rules and regulations. No, it just means, I guess, when you come in and you're applying for that. Uh, Commission. Yes. I think, I think this is on Rob Mars desk. And that's probably all. The only place it needs to be. Then he says, sorry, it's not all of this. Yeah. Okay. Or like, or like Nate and I also sometimes get calls from potential applicants or people who are. And so like I, I've consulted the, you know, exemption list before and stuff like that. So. Um, So yeah, I think it would, it would be it. I would live there. Okay. So that. Oops. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. So that. Oops. Hilda just raised her hand. Let's see if. Hilda, I kind of allow you to talk. If you want to go ahead. Oh, she's muted. Um, it sounds. It's not clear to the person who's listening. Whether exclusion applies to the B or whether exclusion. Means you don't have to file. Okay. It's not clear. It doesn't have to be reviewed by the board. That's what's not clear. Good question. It's both. It's both. So we need, we need to say that. You need to make that clear. That's a good question. Thank you. Oh, it would be made clear by defining what exclusions mean, which means that there is, but I think in the, in the context of the rules and regulations. You will not, when you come. You will not be directed to the local historic district commission. So we would say exclusions. From local historic district consideration. Right review. You don't need a certificate of appropriateness to do these things. So could you add that. As well. But these are, these are going to be, these going to be in the rules and regulations as well. These exclusions. No, that was my understanding. I'm obviously new to the commission. So I don't know exactly how to operate. But there is a list of exclusions in the rules and. Right now. And so this would be added to it. Which probably means that the wording that we've just discussed precedes that is already in the rules and regulations. And we're just adding to the list. Below it. Okay. Sorry, this is a, I've been listening. I was going to cut in. Yeah. I don't, yeah. These would be exclusions in the rules and rags, not exemptions in the bylaw. So. The rules and regulations allows the commission to. You know, to come up with local. Local. You know, local rules. That aren't necessarily inconsistent. You know, the planning board does it and the zoning board of appeals does it. So. The other year approved. Putting exclusions in the rules and rags right now. It says, you know, like replacement of windows. With similar. Material or appearance from the street. So that, that way, someone who's just replacing windows. It's excluded. It wasn't an exemption in the bylaw. But it's spelled out in the rules and rules. And so, so the. Language in the email is, you know, could be just the same language that you see in the rules and rags. And Bruce is right. There's already a, you know, a pro log and introduction about it. Good. I'm, I'm signing off now. Thanks. Thanks. Really? I'll still be listening. We can play. We can play. We can play. We can play. We can play. We can play. We can play. Yeah. Yeah. And so if you want to actually have that up right now, like the rules and regulations section. I am very happy to leave it to you. Okay. Incorporate. Existing document. Gotcha. Well said. That sounds good. So yeah, Nate had come up with a few kind of parameters for the. Exclusions and I think, you know, it's based off of the conversation we had last meeting, but. We can take time now to kind of just go over that. If you all, if you guys want. I would. No again, then is this something we can just act on at this meeting? Or does this have to be at a public meeting? That, that I would defer to Nate. I'm not sure. Well, we can take it. I don't know. Well, yeah, so I'll, the recommendation usually is that rules and regulations be changed after a public hearing. And so I'm not sure if that's actually stated in the bylaw, but for the other regulatory boards, that's how it works. So I think today you could discuss the language, if you wanted to tweak any of the language in terms of what exactly is excluded. And then for the September meeting, it could be a public hearing that was advertised two weeks in advance, and then it would be, the commission could then adopt it, and it would become effective then. Okay, thank you, we're just discussing today. Mm-hmm. Thanks, Nate. I'm good with number two. Okay. So there's a mini-split electrical box. Mm-hmm. Okay. Number three? Number three looks at, you know, the exterior compressor for, usually for a mini-split installation. And so an application would be exempt from review if it's only two or fewer compressors per building. It's highest point, so the top is less than five feet off the ground, so they're pretty, you know, low to the ground. Yeah. Sufficiently, sufficiently screened from view. What does sufficiently mean? I would take out. Yeah, that's, yeah. Yeah. It has to be screened. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I would say I agree with that. Yeah. And this last one I'm interested in, I don't know, I question that, not proposing to strike it, but just why? Why do we care? Yeah, my sense is maybe just because, like, you know, doorways are often important architectural features and wanting the entrance to the homes to be nice. I mean, one option is also just saying is not on the front of the house. Yeah, I think that's what Nate was concerned that it not be in the front of the house. I think that's a good one. That's a better way of saying it. Yeah. I agree. I have a problem with the clarity of the first one is are we saying that if there are two or fewer per structure, they don't have to apply? I mean, you could have one big horrible ugly thing. It's not, that's not really clear. Well, it can't be big because of the second. What I don't understand is then, are you saying if all of the following apply, the exterior compressor, if all of the following, because that's not clear right now. I would put that because you're right. You're right. That was my understanding, but you're right. No, it is. No, that was a good suggestion. Yes. Good, Karin. Yeah. And so, yeah, great suggestion. I'm wondering, for like corner lots, should it be like, you know, on the street facing side of that? No, I'd say it's sad, but true for a corner lot. It's twice as hard to locate them. Yeah. Okay. And then if we find out that we can relax that in some way, then we can move to it based on experience, but to the moment, going in, I would keep it the way we've got it. So I'm on the corner lot and we put ours behind a fence. So can't we say it cannot be seen from the public way, the language we use elsewhere? I mean, and it could be two public ways. And it could be, I mean, you know, we've been dealing with three public ways. Right. The public way is the public way. Could you say not in front of the house or seen by the public way? So it's both. Mm-hmm. Sure. The question is, again, well, then they wouldn't have to come. Yeah, exactly. If it's, if it's not visible from the public way, you're right, right. Of course. Yes. So, and it's, yeah, I mean, we already have the screen from view. Okay. I think if we put is not in front of the house, we'll leave then we're leaving it to the building commissioner. And if they'll, if, if, if they, if the building, if Rob wants to, then he, if it's on the side of the house, but there's a side street, he might decide that it needs to come. Yes, because it could be seen from the public way. Yeah. The public way is really determinative. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, yeah, that's great. I think I would, I would leave it the way it is for now and see how, see how it flies. Okay. And I, we can, I can talk to Rob about this too before our next meeting, just to go over it with him. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt, but there's a house on, it's on Lincoln, where the front of the house is not in the, it does not face the street. It's on, it's, you go up a driveway and, and the front of the house faces the driveway. Oh, you have some of that right. The side is what's on the street. The side of the house is facing the street. Right. So in that situation, you might be better off with your compressor passed the door on the, on the facing the driveway, which would be the front of the house. You wouldn't see that from, that would be much less visible from the street. So I think it's not on the front of the house. Maybe there's to add something that indicates that this would be dependent upon the facing of the house. Right. The house is facing the street. Yeah, or maybe, yeah, it is not on the facade of the house facing the street. Remember that the default, the default here is that the, that it comes, that it comes to us. So we don't, we don't have to, again, I don't think we have to beat us off up too much over this and try too hard. I think we get, we get most, whoops, my dog is tied up in my ear buds. Oh, no. So we don't have to, so if we just say, if we just say not in front of the house, that's going to cover 99, 95% of the, of the, of the structures we, in our, in the district, right? What could be visible from the, but there would be some house where it would be perfectly okay. And that would be facing, facing a driveway and facing another house. I think it's a greenhouse on Lincoln or sunset. No sunset. There's a, there's a beautiful gray house on sunset. Right. The front of the house is on the side of the lot. Would it be offensive. They have the compressor there. It would be. Oh, it would be. Offensive to have it. Well, they probably wouldn't choose to have it in the front, but we certainly wouldn't want it on the side. That's the street. Okay. So that's. So if they have a nice front that faces a lot of, they have two other sides to figure out. Right. And if they're a corner lot and that happens, then they have one side to figure out. So do I understand that we're talking about situations where we imagine the front of the house is not the frontage. Yes. It's not on the public. Maybe we just want to just take that last piece out. It's not. Well, it's. That. I was thinking that. I was thinking that Peggy. I was thinking that we might. Then you might be willing to give a question to Nate about what he had in mind. Okay. Yeah. Because simply tell him we've been struggling with it. Yeah. I mean, I guess. Yeah. And I agree with Peggy. I think the whole thing should go. I think it is screened from view period. Now, what if someone, you know, puts it wants to put a condenser on the front of their house. And then puts it, puts a giant fence around it. To screen or like maybe lots, lots of vegetation around it to screen it from view. And then. Would that. Be detrimental to the architecture of the house? I guess I'm just thinking of like, it can be pretty ugly, but. Right. If they want to put a fence up, they'd have to come. Yeah. I just realized that. But yeah. Now the thing is if they put bushes, which is fine, it's just that. If the bushes came down. I guess subsequent owner took down the bushes. Then what? Instead of. It remains screened from. Remains right. Screened from view. And not, not further. And then. A lot of discussion. That's a good idea. I think. We agreed a long time ago. We're not Nantucket. And so. I think there's a limit. Yeah. Yeah. But I think we could say remains. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Take that. I mean, we did that. We could go back to the. To the knot within 15 feet of the, or fight. Not within. 10 feet of the door where you could go back to that. Uh-huh. Well, I'd rather ask Nate what he had in mind. Okay. I would provisionally take that away because I don't think it matters. And I, I guess I confess that I've got one right next to my. Doorway, but it's. But you see the thing is very often at the entry, you have a porch and the porch sticks out a little. And if you put this thing on the side of the porch, which therefore is perpendicular to the street, it's really rather unobtrusive. So, um, this, uh, this, this thing, uh, uh, of course to, to, to take my own arguments and put them back at me, all that would happen is that it has to come. To the commission and maybe that's the way it should be. And we just leave it there. Recognizing that if it is. Close to the door, then it comes to us and we might say, sure, it's fine. Sure. So I'll chime in again quickly. I mean, I guess my thought is I've seen. Two installations. One is on, you know, a gas house. So a nice old, um, Cape where they put it right smack dab right next to the front door, two feet off the ground facing the street. And then another one where. I can't remember. And then there's another one I've seen in town where they put it. Outside the front porch. So I get it, Bruce. It's not perpendicular to the street, but it's, you know, right next to the stairs facing the street. And so it's really hard to have those, um, particulars in, in, in the, in the exclusion. So, you know, for instance, would you say, you know, if it's, you know, perpendicular to the street, I mean, you know, I don't know. We don't need. I'm with you. It comes to us. If it's within 10 feet of the door. What about. Given how particular it is each house and it's, and it's facing. It's a little more vague. That on each application, the, the location of the, uh, of the, uh, the air conditioner needs to be. The compressor needs to be approved by the, by the historic commission. But that would be something we would get a look at that would be part of the application. We were trying to come up with how many things we could exclude. Yeah. I guess what we were hoping was slow and for people being trouble. Yeah. No, I think, yeah. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut in. I was listening to that. I think the difficulty again is, I mean, we'd have to ask an applicant then to provide. You know, a plan we do anyways and show the location of the compressor units and. You know, and then that carries through to the electrical permit. So, um, you know, I think the, um, I was listening to the fraud, you know, the difference between the front and side is interesting. So, you know, for zoning, we have a front setback and a side setback. Uh, for this, it could be something different. So you could be pretty clear about what I mean, the front of the house or not. I, you know, and then my only question too is. Sorry. We don't, we don't define screening. So I said screen from view. Yeah. So I guess one thing is, you know, Is it vegetation or is it someone putting up a fence? So, you know, um, on August 31st, you know, 32 Cosby. Ab is putting up a mini split. And then I think they want to put it up for a second. Yeah. So I guess one thing is, you know, I'm not sure if it's, you know, I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. Um, on August 31st, you know, 32 Cosby Ab is putting up a mini split. And then I think they want to put a fence. A little bit away from it to shield the compressor unit, but the fence has to come then for review. But would that fence be considered part of this installation as the screening? And so I think those are things to consider about, you know, what does screening mean? Um, Is it a structure independent of the unit? Or is it vegetation? I mean, if it's vegetation, we should say vegetation, you know, vegetative screening or something or, you know, um, Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. So to actually screen it from, from view might require a fence, but mate, you would explain that to them or you or Ben would explain to an applicant when they were there. Um, that's, um, Uh, it says remains screen from view, which is our intent here. And so, and then so if, if they say, Oh, well, I'll build a fence. Then you would say, well, that would actually require you to go to the commission. Um, if it's screened with vegetation, then perhaps not. Right. Um, so I guess it, I guess it does have to say vegetative screen. Doesn't. Can I just ask a question? I'm not trying to muck things up, but. So let's say somebody doesn't have to come to us to put it in. And they put it in and they don't. Do the screening. Somebody can cite them. Yes. Yeah. If this goes through, yes. Yeah. We have a, there's a, there's a lever. Yeah. Screen with vegetation. Yes. I get that's, that's good. I like that. And, uh, and I'm, I'm, I'm resolved to. Yeah. The last one I'm thinking, yes, let's keep that. Um, I'm thinking about, um, Is not within 10 feet of a door or entry. Uh, and now I'm just thinking about door or entry and whether we should, um, Uh, just have it, uh, 10 feet of, uh, an entry. Because there, it might be a, you know, a cell or halfway or something that could be a door. And so if we just say an entry. I wouldn't say any entry. I'd just say an entry. It seems a little more forgiving. Oops. Uh, 10 feet of entry. But what would it be a problem to be closer than 10 feet to a cell or entry if that's the back of the house? Yeah. Well, I saw, I thought that by taking out door, it would, uh, Uh, it would be a little more, um, forgiving in the sense that there might be some doors and I used a cell or hatch way as an example of a door, not of an entry. Uh, because I thought, I thought entry is a little more difficult, a little less likely to be construed as a cell or access way as little less likely to be construed as an entry. But, um, but maybe a door. Are we talking about the main entry? Yes. Well, mostly. Yeah, I think so. Okay. That doesn't make sense. No, main entry. We use the side entry. Right. We use the side entry in our home and the Victorian home in the district. Yeah. And also the building commission. They're not going to know which one is the main entry. Right. Anyway, that doesn't make sense to me. Why didn't you just take it out? Yeah. Can we say front door entry? Well, Peggy and I both have the same problem that we have front doors and side doors. No, but if your side door isn't really visible from the public way, does it? Oh, I see what you mean. It is. It is. My side door is visible from the public way. My side door is our main entry that's visible from the street and it's not visible from the public way. It's not visible from the public way. And nobody can see because that lot has. His door. In chopped off. So it's problematic. This language. I'm not sure we need to get into this door part of it. My sense is that the intent of 10 feet from the entry door was, was a conspicuous entry. And that yes, the side door is visible from the street, but it's not as visible or as conspicuous as, but it's not as visible from the street. So I guess. I guess. I guess they were thinking of the houses he's seen, which we don't want to allow those incidents to happen. So I guess we're just trying to find a way to avoid that. And I think, you know, the, the, the thing being that if the. I think we have to keep our eye on the ball in so far as we recognize that this is really a framework for the building commissioners use. And so the default here is that it comes to us. So we, we don't have to try and cover every, every inch of territory here. We're just trying to make the building commissioners. Or the applicants lives a little easier. And so if, so if something is within 10 feet of an entry, whatever the entry is, it'll probably come to us. But mostly this will filter out. Right. Exactly. Yeah, that makes sense. Great. And it will cost us a cost 50 dollars. It's still complicated to me. I've got entries on three sides of my house. I mean, it's, you know, unfortunately more likely to have to come to us then. I mean, someone like you, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, this will cut out a lot of the smaller houses, which is simpler and so forth. Okay. Probably the ones that we're less concerned about. Yeah. And you know, yeah, exactly. And I guess with the application fee, people have an incentive to just like make, make this a simple installation, follow these rules. And not have to come before the commission. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to figure out if there's a way to make it so that my house, which is a historic house in this store, not problematic. What do we gain by that? What we're coming up with. We make a problematic. I mean, I'm not about to be doing it. So it's not, it's not a big issue for me. It's hypothetical. But I could see very easily, readily that the next tenant in this house, the next owner of this house, we want to get air conditioning in it. I mean, it's not a big issue for me. I mean, it's not a big issue for me. I mean, it's not a big issue for me. I mean, I'm doing what could make it very problematic. Well, no, not. It's the same as it is now. You just come to us. Well, let me say one other thing. I'm mainly concerned about the public way. And from my point of view, what is not seen from the public way. Is not. Unless it's egregious. Right. I agree. It's not our jurisdiction. Right. So, uh, I don't feel. Yeah, but I think what, but Peggy's also saying is your house is on a lot. That a lot of it. I mean, you have a lot of shrubbery. So, but base, without the shrubbery, it could be visible from a public way. So you're right. Peggy, I think, uh, you know, I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. These are just the times that are clear that you don't have to get permission. If you have a complicated house, like you have an, I have, and you want to put an air conditioning, then you have to work hard to find, uh, something visibly that's going to pass muster, but you're going to try to do that anyway, because you're concerned about the historic house. I think that's for this way. I can't imagine any commission. I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. They might say put it here instead of here, but I don't think anyone's going to deny someone having air conditioning. Okay. Just one point here. I do have. The compressor on the other side of the side deck. It's certainly within 10 feet. It's just the butts. It's, uh, there's shrubbery around it. You can't see it from. It has to be there because of the nature of mini splits. The mini split comes down into the compressor. Right. And so in my case, it comes from the kitchen and from a bedroom into the same compressor, but has to be there. So the 10 feet off. My side doorway. I couldn't do it. Well, so then you come to us. Well, that's a. An annoyance. No, you're going to have. Yes. Because you're going to let me have air conditioning. So why did I spend? No, but then maybe, I mean, maybe if it was. Unsightly from a public way, we might say put a little fence around it or. But it's not visible from a public way. This thing is for things not visible. Visible from a public way. No, it's not. No, it's not because nothing we do. Nothing that's not visible from the public way applies to us. So it's doesn't even, doesn't even enter the phrase. Doesn't even enter the conversation. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So Peggy's got a problem and I don't. Okay. Well, it's only it's any that we're treating my senses. We're treating this as though it's an adjudication of what would be worthy or a receipt of the certificate of appropriateness. But it's not that it's just what Rob, what Rob Mara can make a determination on without us being involved. Yeah. Yes. It's, it's not. We shouldn't confuse the two. Okay. So then I would say that then it would, it would, we would require a special meeting here and whatever. We'd have to come directly before the board, which is fine. Which is the way it currently is. Yeah. I'm going to throw out another loop that I just, another thing that I just thought of. And it really. What about generators? Well, we don't. You mean, do you mean having a whole separate exclusion for generators? Well, something you want to treat. Do people that have to put in generators? Does that? Yeah. I mean, I'm glad I put mine in before this was a historical commission because I don't think it would have passed muster. Actually. Fine screen. Well, it's, it's, it's not, this is not muster. This is simply a filter to determine what comes before us and what doesn't compress. Generators. Generators tend to be bigger. A lot bigger. Oh yes. So that's why we're probably not going to put generators in here as an, as an item for exclusion. And that's typically where they are because they, you can, and typically you put them as far away as you can and the, and the penalty for doing so is not terribly great because the electrical losses and so forth are not as great as the, and the costs and so forth and not as great as the connection by line sets to these things. So it's a different, it's, it's, it's a completely different animal really. So we don't need to talk about it at all. No, I think we're fine. Okay. Exhaust. Okay. Okay. With that language. Okay. Do we read it one more time and exterior compressor condenser, if all of the following apply, there are two or fewer per structure. It's highest point is less than five feet off the ground. It remains screened from view with vegetation and it is not within 10 feet of an entry. Yeah. Well, could it be screened with it with some sort of decorative fencing rather than vegetation? Why does it need to be vegetation? Well, because if it's a fence, it has to come to us by another word. You'd have to come before us for the fence. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Okay. I don't want to really believe in this, but what if you already have a fence that shielding it? Right. Or if it's not visible, if we leave it like this, it means we have to put vegetation. Doesn't don't, doesn't it? Oh, but you're right. If it's already behind a fence, then it's not visible from a public way, right? Okay. But if I were to want to tuck mine onto the side of my house, I would need to, I would need to say, continue it from a porch deck and tuck it into the corner where the deck meets the house. I would probably want to screen that in from, from the driveway coming into the house, which has become a de facto main entrance for us. That would be fine. So I would just have to come before the commission for an exemption. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Unless we couldn't sit. Exhaust fan. Are we ready for exhaust fan? Yes. I'm ready. I'm ready for dinner. Okay. Yeah. So this is exhaust vent installation or replacement of a single exhaust vent for a dryer. That's good. That's good. That's fine. It's clear. Um, plumbing vent stack. Yeah. Well, I would change stack to, uh, and I'd put a type of bent through roof and then put, uh, a parenthesis after it and put in capitals. VTR closed parenthesis. VTR. Yeah. That's, that's what you see on drawings. And so, uh, the, the stack is the whole thing that, uh, inside the building, but it's the VTR that we're concerned about. That's what you see. And they, and they, and I was thinking about this earlier in the afternoon and I, I, I, I can't, I don't think in, I've ever heard of or seen a vent that, a plumbing vent that doesn't come through a roof. Right. Exactly. Okay. So we want to engage it in that. Yeah. Installation and to give it to the stack and put through. That's just a, it just, it'll just make it clear for people in the trade. That's all. Yep. Okay. Then vent hood. Is that okay? Installation or a placement of standard direct vent hood. For an interior unit such as combustible heater or boiler. Yep. I think so. Sounds good to me. Okay. Okay. And then actually. Yeah. We should be combustion heater. A combustible heater would be interesting to observe. That's all good. Watch the explosion. I do see Hilda has her hand raised. Yeah. I want to get to the exhaust vent. On a ton of, um, I have. In my house, an exhaust fan in my kitchen off the stove vent and I have exhaust fan in my bathroom. For the shower. Oh, yeah. So I think that you may want to. Think about more than one. It's not just a dryer, but I've got, they're on the back of my house. You don't see it from the street, but. Okay. Yeah. I think that would be okay. I mean, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the driver. That would be for you. I think that would be okay. Yeah. I think that would be okay. I mean, the, the, um, They're on the side of it. If you don't see. It's not our concern. Well, yeah, I mean, then don't make it for the dryer cause it could be for the bathroom or kitchen fan. It could be anything. Well, hold on. These are all exclusion. see from the public way. Right, but there may be a bathroom on the front of the house or a kitchen vent on the front, you know. Hilda's right, but we have to recognize that the size of a dry event is almost universally similar, you know, in terms of being at six inches by square or simple with a four inch pipe coming through it. Last year, I installed a range hood in my son-in-law's house, daughter-in-son-in-law's house, which is three feet by two feet. It's a huge thing because he likes to cook and he's got a very big commercial hood over it and that is a range hood vent. So we could put range hood vent in there and many of them are actually bigger. They would be, you know, 10 inches or so versus six, but the trouble is there's quite a range of size for a range hood vents, whereas that's not quite so, that's not true for dryers, I don't think. Bathroom? Bathroom? Bathroom vents can be, they are bigger. Do we, do we? Mine are rather same. Yeah, but they're bigger than the dry event is what I'm saying. I mean, mine are 50 years old, but so nowadays things are different. I'm wondering, could we put like SIs of the of the vent that is excluded or something? Yes, why don't we say fed by, attached to no greater than the four inch diameter duct. Okay. We're saying that I have to mute myself for a minute. I don't think any range hood would form into that category, but a number of, or we could make it six inches if we liked. The thing is that we should know what we're going to be seeing. And so do we all familiar with what a six inch vent? I was thinking I could go and take a picture of the one out front in post right now, but that would, I'm not clever enough to do that. But the thing is that the six inch range hood or bathroom vent has about a 10 inch by 10 inch vent that is, it discharges into a thing that's about that size. So it's, it's, you know, we're talking about a thing which is eight to 10 inches square, and which is bigger than the dry vent. Are we still comfortable? And because in that case, we could increase that, we could increase that four inch diameter duct to a six inch diameter duct. So then do we say dryer bathroom or kitchen? Yes, we could do that, I suppose. Okay. I think that's what we're talking about. Yeah. Installation or replacement of single exhaust vent for a dryer bathroom or kitchen attached to no greater than a six inch diameter duct. Okay. And is that a standard, standard size? No, it's just a size that creates a manifestation on the exterior house, which is small enough for us to consider unnecessary to come before us. But you can get ducts that are bigger than that, bigger house. We'd want to see it. But you see, this would cover 95 or more percents of the situations. So again, we're not trying, I don't think we're trying to cover 100%. We're just trying to take the load off these small additions or changes that people are making. So I think that, that should, that should work. Okay. Let's push on. Okay. Well, we had circled back to exhaust vent. So we went through these two and that's, that's it for the exclusions. And this was the list that we kind of rattled off a few meetings ago. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we've, we've given this a pretty sour going over. Okay. Great. I think we've done well. So I'm going to go back to the agenda. Well, it's the time. So 15. Okay. Now I've got a few more minutes. So we talked about exclusions. There's time, any public comment. And then we just need to circle back to make a decision about 19 McClellan because they have not received an email. Nope. So who is that? Who is it that's not responding? Kendrick. Kendrick property management. Yeah, they're down on the corner of my street. They never replied to any phone calls. I made about 10 years ago when I needed some information from them. So not much has changed apparently. All right. So Jennifer is muted right now. Maybe she stepped away. But I do think we would need to probably close out the application. Yeah. Do we have to, I guess the public meeting is already opened and we've continued. Oh, there's Jennifer. I'm sorry. I have to apologize. Our house is being painted now. And they're doing the front door and they were changing the color. So I'm sorry. Nice color too, by the way. Thank you. But this is like the last day. Okay. So I'm. So we're ready to close out the public meeting. And again, we're not making any formal decisions because this will be posted for a public meeting when we will vote on, we will ask for public comment and then vote on what we just discussed today. Perfect. Okay. So do I, okay. So I will formally. So do I have to get a motion to close out the public meeting and go to the public hearing where we'll. Well, it seems like this has been continued that you wouldn't be looking for a motion to close the public hearing. And if that's the case, so move public meeting and a public hearing meeting right now. Right. We're doing no, no, no, I'm talking about the public hearing on 19 McClellan. Yeah, we haven't finished. We haven't gotten there yet. I'm just asking Dan, do I have to, do we have to close out the public meeting to go to the public hearing? Um, I believe so, yeah. Okay, so move. All in favor. Aye. Okay. Now they've been telling us that when we're zooming, we have to do a voice. Okay. So let's start all in favor of closing the public meeting. Marianne. Yes. Uh, Greta. Yes. Um, Peggy. Yes. And then I'm going down my screen. Bruce. Yes. Jim. Yes. Karen. Yes. And Jennifer. Yes. Okay. Okay. And now we will go to the public hearing. And since the applicant for the third meeting in a row was a no show, we have been advised that we should issue, we should deny the certificate of appropriateness because both they haven't been able to present their application and because we did have comments and requests that aren't, without, haven't been able to be responded to. Okay. So is there a motion? Yeah. All in favor. Well, so moved. Second. Yes. Second. Okay. So we will proceed to a voice vote starting with Marianne. Yes. Uh, Bruce. Yes. Greta. Yes. Karen. Yes. Jim. Yes. And Jennifer. Yes. Okay. Okay. So, so, uh, then you've got the wording of that satisfactorily, do you? Yeah. Basically, um, denied the application due to a lack of, you know, information on answered questions. Yeah. They have not presented. And that we upon review of the application and their absence had questions, which, uh, Nate has conveyed to them and which they have not addressed. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. It sounds good. They, they said they would be at the, they have kept saying they'll be at the next meeting to respond to the questions and have not been. Okay. So we already have a date set for our next meeting of August 31st. Yep. On August 31st. Yeah. So with that, um, is there a motion? Do we need that meeting or we don't yet know if we need that meeting? Yep. That meeting, uh, is needed. It's been advertised and I just did the mailings today. So it's a two applications. We do an application. Yep. 32 Cosby street, um, for the mini splits and fence. And then, uh, G, what was the other one? 154 Lincoln or something. Yeah. So the mini splits might be exempt with the fence, wouldn't? Um, well, those exemptions haven't been. Yeah. But we can kind of use it as like a case study for how we might approach it. Uh, and I think 32 Cosby is another example of where they may have already installed the mini splits, I believe. So, um, just for your, so you know, and then I frig, I can look up what 154 Lincoln, that might be a deck, I believe. I think it's the back porch. Yep. 16 by 20 deck with stairs, railings and other features. Okay. So was there a motion to close the meeting? It moved. Okay. We don't need to do a voice vote for closing it, do we? All in favor? Yes. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, everybody. Here's your trip, Rita. Thank you. I'm sorry. I'll miss the next meeting. It is safe to meet Rita. Yeah. Thank you, Ben. Yep. Absolutely. Bye-bye. Bye, everyone. Bye, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye.