 Welcome once again to the breakfast here on PLOS TV Africa. Our first major conversation this morning is going to be on the viability of the Nigerian state. After a conference that was held yesterday we were able to pull in one of the speakers, Ms Victoria Ibezim Oheri, who's the Executive Director, Spaces for Change. Thank you very much for joining us. Good morning Ma. Good morning. We're to have you here. Let's you know the conversation concerning Nigeria's viability has been going on for a long time. There's people who have looked at our current situation and said that they don't believe Nigeria would survive the next 10 years. And there's also people who say that well they've heard the same thing since the 90s and still Nigeria continues to thrive and continues to exist. What are your thoughts on Nigeria continuing on the path that it currently is on? Thank you. Good morning listeners. I think the conversation that we've had yesterday is a reflection of the resilience of Nigerian people. If you look at the 50 answers in that book called Remaking Nigeria 60 Age System Voices, you found out 60 contributors to that book all had a litany of lamentation about the country. This is not the kind of country they booked for. Many are in their 30s, many are in their 40s, many are in their 50s and all these years they had hoped that things would get better. That things never got better and things continue to take a downward spiral. But despite all of that, people still have faith and confidence in this entity called Nigeria. People were still expressing solutions. People had felt that someday some solution, some ahead of the thinking called solution for thinking to push out to be brought to the table. And the kind of leader, the right kind of leadership they might somehow, I think the solution is in and give a kind of country. Would you describe that as blind optimism and people who just feel like being positive thinkers? Do you think that they really believe in what they are thinking concerning Nigeria? Because we've had this hope for a long time that someday Nigeria would have the right leaders and the right people would get into power. But the system doesn't seem to be changing in any way to allow for that to ever happen. Yes, it's unfortunate that many do not share that optimism. But a lot really do. Some people have definitely overcome Nigeria. When I say people have overcome Nigeria, what do I mean? I don't know whether you've had that picture that says that everybody in Nigeria is a local government. They provide their own water, you build your own house, you provide your own security, you provide your own everything, every sentence that you need, and yet you pay taxes to the government. So when people get to that level, when they become a local government onto themselves and still pay taxes to the government, it gives them some kind of optimism that somehow that there could be some life at end of the horizon. And they still hope that other people will get to that level when they become a local government onto themselves. So maybe it is that same threat that gives a number of people optimism and hope that other people will get to that level of position for themselves. Okay, I want us to now begin to analyze these key issues in the Nigerian state and all these factors are threatening the viability of Nigeria. Let's begin with the secessionist agitations. There's the Biafra Republic, there's the Odu Dua Republic as well. What do you say to these secessionist agitators who believe that, like you've said, we're a local government onto ourselves, we're benefiting almost nothing from the government and that a separate state is a solution to their problems. What do you say to that? Yeah, I think the educations are symptomatic of the niche failure of government. Over the years, there have been demands. They have started as demands to demand. They have started as non-barland campaigns. They have started as invitations, a special of holy branch to the federal government. Let's have a conversation around this injustice, that injustice that over time we have seen that the government has identified from violence. Look at the situation in Boko Haram. Boko Haram started as just a group of young, you know, and the public sector making demands. Nobody took them seriously until they mistreated into a full-blown and certain group. Government started paying attention. Look at the Niger Delta militant. It has exactly the same story. Then, we're beginning to hear about agitations in the South East. If it is not well managed, we can find ourselves also in the same situation. So, it is quite unfortunate. All the agitations that you see in different parts of the country, whether it's on the road, whether it's the scandal, whether it's the violence. It is not an agitation on the government. Two things differently. We cannot continue to do things to create this country as held on and moved on in the last five or six weeks. Okay. Let's now introduce our next guest, Mr. Amadou Sheh, who is a professor, assistant professor at the American University of Nigeria, AUN. Good morning, Mr. Sheh, who thanks for joining us. Good morning. What's your name? Glad you have me here. Okay. So, we're talking about the viability of the Nigerian state. We're aware that, you know, these are conversations that you had yesterday. I want you to basically tell us, you know, when we look at the kidnapping menace in Nigeria, how bad would you say it has become? And do you really fear for Nigeria as a country and for the education sub-sector in the country? Yeah. The issue of kidnapping and insecurity in this country has gotten to probably a very alarming stage. And every Nigerian has now understood that almost no one is safe, regardless of whatever you think you are, whether you care for your status, whether you care for the region you come from, whether you care for whatever. It is now a collective problem for all Nigerians because, like, we no longer, schools have been raided. School officials have been kidnapped. So, no one left, you know, traditional rulers, everyone is in the same problem. So, I would say that the problem cannot, you know, be underestimated because it's so, it's so alarming that we are all afraid of our lives and our property and our security. Okay. So, would you say that, see, the way it's going, right, we saw in news, you know, this morning in Kaduna that about 222 people have been kidnapped and, you know, scores of people killed. With the way Nigeria is going, do you think we can actually survive the next few years? What's the, you know, likelihood with all the optimism that we want to have, you know, in faith that Nigeria can survive? And the, you know, local parents, the way we say it, Nigeria go better. What's the possibility that we're not going, you know, towards a downward spiral? I don't think this is an issue of the next two years, because when we talk of next two years, we may lose our human voice to make it, you know, more of a political voice. That is a sudden of, you know, government and when it's gone, our problems are gone with it. That is not correct because we, you know, we committed the same problem with the Jonathan administration. People thought that, okay, if we vote Jonathan out, you know, the North will be secure, you know, places would be better. That is not the point. The truth of the matter is Nigeria will survive. I don't know how difficult it will take us. I don't know how, you know, how bad it will get to before we all realize that it is a matter of humanity, a matter of the Nigerian state, not a matter of a political party or a government. It's a matter of all of us coming up together and secure our lives and call our leaders to question. But I do think that other countries have survived even worse situations. Smaller countries with fewer resources, with fewer human capital, with fewer workforce, with fewer number of people that can solve the problem. Now, as far as I'm concerned, I'm optimistic. Optimistic. The Nigerians will come together and ask the real questions, you know, and bring forward the right leadership that will take up this problem and solve it probably once and forward. But I have never doubted that Nigeria is going to come out of this problem even stronger because we were into even deeper problems and we came out to a better nation. When, how, those are the questions, but not, you know, where? We will certainly survive this. All right. I'm going to go back to Victoria Ibizim or Harry. The Nigeria will survive narrative. I think both, I'm going to have both of you answer this, but I'll start with Ibizim. The Nigeria will survive narrative sounds very, very interesting, sounds very positive. Everyone likes to say that, you know, and, you know, believe in it. But Nigeria has been surviving. The challenge is that Nigerians are survivors. And when you push Nigerians to the wall, they push the wall back and continue, you know, going back and surviving, even in the worst of situations. So what do you think, you know, about Nigeria surviving in a better situation? Nigeria has a country surviving and thriving with our economy, with our infrastructure, with healthcare, with security, with education, in every aspect whatsoever. Why can't we have a Nigeria that is surviving in those directions instead of a Nigeria that is just surviving against all odds? I would like both of you to start to share your thoughts on that one. And I'll start with Mrs. Ibizim or Harry. Okay. Thank you so much. I mentioned yesterday at the lecture that the way Nigeria economy currently structured, it is designed, not designed to succeed. And what is that structure that I talked about? Number one is Nigeria's accessible attention to kudoro. And the second is the unity system of government, which we practice. I argued that the unity system of government is strangulating space. So all the tensions we have seen in the northern part of the country, in the southeast part of the country, in the southwest part of the country, in the south part of the country. Look at the underlying recall. We have a bourgeois population that are idle. Any country with that number of citizens that are idle will include at any moment. So with the unity system of government strangulating space and letting the fiscal capacity of space, it has made it impossible for states to create wealth. So if you look at the agencies, if you look at the budget, every year the federal government is letting one agency, one commission, cutting off one board, that is primarily the only way of making jobs. There is no incentive for even the government to create jobs. So for Nigeria to really try, for these applications to end, we must find a way to keep young people safe. And for the country to get its way, we need to wind down the economic dependence on the center, need an incentive structure from negotiating interest, for building compromise, and for ensuring that every section of the country has equal rights to make use in the kind of Nigeria they want. It is not something that would be protected to any group. Because we are a general society, a multicultural society, we should understand that we have basic principles, identity, conviction, and beliefs. And if there is no mechanism for negotiating the differentiated interest, it will continue to be difficult for Nigeria to talk about a new country that states can work. So these are the two recommendations I gave on the yesterday at the lecture. I still think that a new construction that gives autonomy to the regions gives more power to the states that makes the center less powerful. That is the kind of country that would allow the federated union to achieve the level of free freedom and the international capacity to address the need of their local population. Let's hear from you now. I'm asking about Nigeria surviving like you mentioned. I said that Nigeria will survive. The only challenge is that we continue to survive in the worst conditions. And it also feels like the opportunities with which we can make that change don't seem to be in existence. I think we must have lost Mr. Sheho, but we're going to reconnect with him in a few seconds. But still with Mrs. Victoria Ibizim, you've just brought up the conversation on restructuring. We don't lack ideas on what must be done to fix Nigeria, but we don't seem to be doing any of those things. So in what ways do you think we can force or Nigerians can force the states to start to implement these ideas? There's brilliant ideas and I'm sure a lot of them were shared yesterday. We've had this conversation for decades. So in what ways do you think that the state or the citizens can force the state to start to implement some of these ideas that will bring a change to Nigeria? Ibizim, can you hear us? Yes, I heard you. I thought I'm going to speak a little bit. We seem to have disconnected from him, but go ahead. Let's hear your thoughts on this one. Yes, what we have in the country at the moment is what I call forced togetherness. So what we do sometimes say, ah, we'll remain together is because the impact in how to get about is forced. If it is not being held together by instrument or force, why is somebody being arrested and kidnapped and brought back to Nigeria? Why is it becoming a possible arrest on the Google? Why are all the groups cameraing for self-determination? Why are they being planned out? That is to tell you that the country is held together by instrument or force, not necessarily by will. But it's possible to transition from force to a position of will or rule of will of the people. And just like I said before, many people feel that they can bring in this case, in this state of Nigeria. Many people think that the incentives are right. These incentives enable them to flourish. These incentives give them a sense of belonging and opportunity to continue, to bring out or to maximize their own potential. Then naturally they would want to stay and be part of that entity. So I think the message for our leaders is to begin to ask ourselves, why is it that all of us, most parts of us, think we need to want to break away? What is it that we're doing wrong and making up between me and you and me? How am I at of being like that? Maybe if leaders have bad or less conversation, it might lead us to some of the situations that have been available for too long. The first thing we should even be asking ourselves, why is it deep bad? Everybody has been in a long form, so I got the dry-listing for regional autonomy or for dry-listing. Why is it that nobody, the government might not talk to that people? That's what I'm saying. Well, let's have you hold on. I'm out of here. Welcome back. So happy to be again. All right. So this is where I'm going now. We do not lack ideas. We're not short of some of the greatest ideas on how to move Nigeria forward. We speak a lot and a lot of times about what must be done, we must restructure, we must fix our electoral system, we must do this and that. But if we never get a government, then people have argued that the reason that they push citizens towards using the right channels to make a change is because the government itself has a hold and control over those channels. So if we don't get to a place where we can implement some of these brilliant ideas that analysts and people like yourself keep sharing, how can the Nigerian citizens force the state to implement these things for a better Nigeria? Yeah, here's how I look at it. Yesterday, if you were in attendance, Barista Femi Falana has pointed out a key solution for implementation. Nigeria is evolving. We were trying to understand ourselves as a nation. We're trying to summarize our problems and now we get deeper into even worse problems. And what Femi Falana suggested and what we'll ever work only is when people who believe they understand the scope of the problem delve into solving the problem, not as NGOs as he said, because you won't have non-governmental people in his words, but as people in the system, in the system of governance, wherever you can fit in. And that place allows you somewhere without to implement the ideas that you have conceived for the betterment of the Nigerian people get involved, whether as a politician, whether as a civil society organizer, whether as a media visionary, whether as an entrepreneurship leader, people with conscience, people with the love of the country who truly understand it because there's a difference between being empathic and love Nigeria and having the capacity and the capability to take up the Nigerian question and focus on the Nigerian problem and have the ability of putting solutions on the ground. So I think that by the time Nigerians in collective in unison agree that this is an Nigerian problem, when it is a problem during a northern president or a southern president, or whether this problem is in Oregonland, or whether it is in cousin state, or whether it is in Lagos or Ibadan, it is a Nigerian problem. Those locations are not locations on their own because they are places in Nigeria. When gas is flared in Oregonland, it affects the environment. But Nigerian environment, not the Oregon environment, if people who understand our problems in this view take control of the institutions that are supposed to solve these problems, I guarantee you, we will be able to survive, not as a difficult, poor country, but as a prosperous place where people are surviving, people live, not survive. Yes, you just touched on a very important point, talking about the view, meaning that our mindset needs to change about the way we see certain things. And one of those things that we need a mind shift about would be a certain north-south divide, the tribalistic way that the north views the south, the south views the north, looking at each other as different people rather than one united Nigeria. So how can we begin to get that mindset shift for a house man to look at the Yoruba man as his brother and vice versa? And how would you say that maybe the handling of the farmer's head as clashes has sort of worsened this particular issue of tribalism? There's only one medium through which human beings will understand themselves and live as a community, and that is communication. The moment there is no communication gap, we will be happy together. But there is no doubt about that. So what happened yesterday should be happening regularly across the country, crossbreeding of ideas, people talking with honesty and getting the conversation going without pre-modal emotions of their identity. And we have the capacity to do that. All right? Coming to other farmer problem which has really consumed Nigeria, it is my position. The others are victims of the same enemy as the farmers. But who can tell these people, this message, that look, you are not the enemy of the TV farmer and you are not the enemy of the flan he heard. Your enemy is that very system that did not provide the modern way of animal husbandry for you to be a prosperous citizen. And that very system that denied you the modern agricultural mechanism that will make you a prosperous farmer. And that system that does not care about the environment, which allowed your grasses and your water to get dried up in global warming. And the people that are responsible to communicate this truth to the world and societies are me as an individual, a civil society organization and you as the media. Now it begins with us clearing our narrative in this country and getting the right words to use when we talk about our problems and stopping this typical way of pointing out our problems because then we lose our human voice. Then we create enemies from France. Then we create divisions from unity instead of moving our forces all together to talk about our country in the same way Americans talk about their country and their problems and Europeans talk about their own problems and their own countries. So this is the way I said it is first conversation, honest one, followed by, you know, enlightenment on all sides of Nigeria. That we are one people, yes we have problems, yes we can solve our problems together. This is how I said. But there are government agencies like the National Orientation Agency that are charged with disseminating information to the public especially along these lines at the time when we need it most. So we need messages of national unity most more than any other time in our country's history but these agencies are silent. So really how much can the civil societies do? How much can the media do? What really is the role of the government in terms of communicating information about peace and unity to Nigerians because we need to really, you know, determine who exactly, whose table exactly this lies. You see the whole bulk actually stops at the government table, all right? We all agree with that. But then the bulk of holding the government, you know, responsible actually lies with the citizen. Okay, National Orientation Agency is a comatose place, I'm sorry to say this, you better listen because like all other government sectors and institutions, this place has not been, you know, walking towards the goals it was created to achieve. But then we do not know the internal fights and budgetary limitations. These kind of very important institutions are going through within the federal arrangement, which I always agreed with what Victoria was talking about. You're decentralizing, putting people on their toes and asking people to invest in their own lives and regions. So I think when governments fail in political history, we see that it is the people, the citizens that wake up and hold them responsible and probably it need be, you know, you dismantle the system and get a new working system going. And really I apologize, I have to leave because as you know, I am waiting for my flight. Yes, we do understand that. And we thank you very much for making time to join us. Good morning. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. All right. Victoria Ibizim, thank you for staying with us still. I want to go to you now and of course bring you in from the southeastern perspective. In what ways do you think that there can be some healing and bringing also more belief in the Nigerian system and the Nigerian state to people of the southeast and members of these secessionist groups? What would your message be to them and in what ways do you think that they can be pulled closer? I think a lot of proposals have been made. And the question is, all the proposals that have been put on the table, we hope that those who have been either supported me or through elections required to take these proposals forward, we act on them. So I do not see any clear distinction between the education and the policies from the institutions in other parts of the country. In fact, the education in the Southeast came a little bit late. And we recall that it had been preceded by a lot of other education from Niger Delta for a long time, other education from the Southwest. We are currently having education in the middle belt. So I think that it is not the Southeast problem. It is a national problem that is just having flashed in different parts. And the question is, it is not time for the government to look at it on the root cause of this, so this can be seen. There is a part of the country because they are having the biggest part of this sometimes. I think there has been a lot of focus on the South East, maybe because this is the first time since the African Civil War that really consistent, loud educations are emanating from that region. So people are beginning to pay attention. And there has been a tax example where they translated their education into full blown act of taxation. So maybe that is why the country is beginning to pay attention. But historical injustice in the South East has been sufficient to elicit a conversation long before now. If you look at the educational approach system, the unity school admission mark, if you look at the representation in the National Security Act, if you look at the federal appointments, if you look at the distribution of even disaster projects in the country, you will see a consistent, intentional, deliberate exclusion of the region. And if the people so excluded begin to lose faith in the federation, the question shouldn't just be the nicer part of the situation. The question would be, how do we address these injustices? If those injustices are addressed, then we can begin to look at the method of attrition. It's hard to stop somebody and not dictate to the person how to cry. You might slap me if I resolve them here. If my slapping starts being, you might choose not to cry. So the question is, how do we end people? How would discourage people from even trapping or that sort of thing? Yes, Mrs. O'Herry. And another question is, how do we proceed with the 2023 general elections by assuring Nigerians that their safety is guaranteed with all the amendments that have still been made at this time so close to the election regarding transmission of results, regarding how water will be conducted? So how really should we be expecting an outlook for the 2023 election in the light of our current realities? Yeah, I think a lot of trauma is going on asking people to go and vote. Beyond voting, you are probably aware of the concerns, the resistance from the political class about electronic transmission of results. And it's been concerning because within the civil society is seen as one of the methods of ensuring electron transparency. So it is not just a civil society to respond to. You know, most times when people talk about energy, it looks like NGOs are like foreigners or they are not Nigerians. NGOs are a method of Nigerian citizens who want a formal structure of putting forward their own recommendations and making contributions to the governance of the country. So when people say in depth for NGOs or the method NGOs are using, NGOs, in my opinion, is not so different from when you can change the world with citizens because it's made up of Nigerians who are making also contributions to the development of our society. So NGOs have primarily made that push for electron transparency. I think it is a collective responsibility for all of us to continue to push. And I, there are evidence to show that if we continue to push the government will listen and something will keep. Yet today, the National Assembly rejected the nomination of the Africa Lacan debate that citizens resisted for being too practical. It was primarily citizens, concerned citizens, interest groups, kind of citizens, and got non-governmental organizations that met that pitch. And we saw how it ended. That nomination was wrong. That shows that if we continue to push, to get that with consistency and with consensus, it means that something will definitely go to the state. Still staying with that major point you just mentioned about the viability of the Nigerian state and elections and how they should be independent and the people conducted them should be non-partisan. Do you think the Nigerian Senate might have reacted differently if citizens did not oppose her nomination? What is important is that that nomination has been caused. That is what Nigeria has to care about. We still report saying that it was an account of federal character and not necessarily participation. It doesn't matter anymore. What matters is that the demand of Nigerians to make sure we have some diverse empire during the electoral process. That was what that campaign was about. We need to have neutral, objective persons presiding over the election. People that do not have any partisan attachment. That is a necessary ingredient of free and fair election. So that was what happened yesterday. So irrespective of whatever on the current or whatever, imagine issues that the public was actually. All right. Quickly, just before you go, I want you to also share your thoughts. You had made statements with regards to some type of restructuring that you described earlier. So I want you to quickly go back to that and talk about how you feel that may be achieved in the next few years. Do you think that it is possible that we might get to that point where the government agrees that it is time that we do some level of restructuring to put Nigerian as a Nigerian state in the right direction? Well, in the next few years, I have made a prediction of what will happen in the next few years. But what is the final conclusion that election will happen in the next few years? Maybe if we have the right people in power in the next few years, things should begin to change because the current administration seems to be operating on its own. It's a particular mindset that we are not seeing signs that they are coming to put out for federalism or restructuring of the entire country. I am very much aware that they could not know the tendency of restructuring. For instance, they know that it will stimulate regional competition. They know that it will stimulate creativity and sharing of best practices, the mission of the kind of experience of having the best republic. They know that constitutional and human is needed for us to achieve and grant fiscal autonomy to the constituent units. And a constitutional amendment process is currently going on. And that issue was not possible. It's not part of the primary issue that the Senate has dealt with. You know that the Senate has conducted public hearings in different regions. This autonomy of the reasons was not on the table. So if you say within the next few years, I will have my doubts that within a few years time, like 2020, hopefully, hoping that we make this time, we hope and insist that our goals come and the right kind of leaders do my thing and give us the promised one by March. Okay. Mrs. Ibeza-Moheri, we can't talk about the viability of the Nigerian state without considering where she stands economically. And we recently heard news this week about Nigeria's debt, debt servicing, debt to China in the trillions of Naira. Do you think that, you know, still talking about the question of Nigeria's survival in the next few years regarding the direction she's headed economically? I don't know any other solution that will make Nigeria work beyond the Nigerian state itself, looking beyond oil in the efforts for economic independence. And ingeniously exploiting all that abundance across the United States, especially in one power. So it's amazing, except some have came on that. And when I talk about manpower, I say that I proceed upon the premise that the world has been moved away from an oil economy into a knowledge economy. And what that means is that countries, irrespective of whether they have natural resources or not, they're beginning to mine the potential of their citizens. They are beginning to truly harness the human that they have to reach, you know, the kind of potential that they desire. So that is something that I think is through the mission. And if you look at the Petroleum Industry Bureau, it's been talking about using 30% of NNP, NNP, NNP profits. So as small oil in the frontier basin, which is to say, the Nigerian government is not even thinking of new ways of economic independence. It means that on one hand, they're talking about economic diversification. And on the other hand, they have only used their resources to perpetuate only crude oil. They are not thinking beyond crude oil. They can't see the future of Nigeria beyond crude oil. So there are so many things that need to be transformed, many conversations that need to be had, and many changes that need to come about before we can have that conversation about independence from Nigeria. Thank you very much, Mrs. Victoria Ibiza-Mohiri. Great points there about Nigeria. Really tapping into her manpower and, you know, truly looking away from all to diversify the Nigerian economy. We thank you and appreciate you for joining us on the breakfast this morning. Thank you for having me. Have a great day. And we'll say a big thank you for staying with us all through this Wednesday morning's edition of the breakfast here on Plus TV Africa. Remember to catch up on any of these discussions you may have missed with Victoria Ibiza-Mohiri. And of course, I'm receiving a lot earlier on our social media handles at Plus TV Africa on Facebook and Instagram. Sing with our YouTube channel. You should subscribe at Plus TV Africa and Plus TV Africa lifestyle. I am Osao Yee of Bama. And I am Annetta Felix, urging you to have a very warm Wednesday morning. Bye-bye.