 Welcome to Hawaii Together on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm your host, Joe Kent, Executive Vice President of the Grassroots Institute of Hawaii, filling in this week for Kelly Iaquina. My guest today is Jessica Poitras. She's an attorney with the Institute for Justice, which is a public interest law firm based in Arlington, Virginia. Jessica recently co-authored an op-ed in the Honolulu Star Advertiser that put a spotlight on Hawaii's occupational licensing laws. And Jessica believes these laws need to be changed, especially as they apply to natural hair braiders and barbers. And she's here to explain why. So thanks so much for talking with me today, Jessica. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here. First, a little bit about your background and where you work. So how did you come to work at the Institute for Justice? And what does the organization do? Of course. The Institute for Justice is a national public interest law firm that works to end government abuses and overreach. So after I graduated from law school, I knew that I wanted to work in the nonprofit sector. I wanted to help people using my law degree. And I've always had a passion for the beauty industry as a consumer and someone who holds cosmetologists and barbers and the entire industry in high regard. So when I had this opportunity to be able to work with the Institute for Justice to break down barriers for these entrepreneurs, I jumped up the chance and I've been here ever since. That's wonderful to hear someone passionate about that work. It's a really important work. But many of our listeners might not be familiar exactly with what is occupational licensing. So could you explain what that is? Sure. So occupational licensing is the fancy term for a government permission slip to allow people to work. So most professions require a government paper or some sort of sign off to be able to work. So think of lawyers be your bar license for cosmetologists, a cosmetology license, things of that nature. So what kind of occupations does the state of Hawaii require a license for? Of course. So Hawaii, it has some of the most burdensome occupational licenses in the country. And it actually licenses, you know, many, many different professions. So ranging from painters to cosmetologists and to individuals in the construction trade. In fact, out of the 102 licenses that we studied and licensed to work, Hawaii licenses 64 of them. Wow. So that's among the highest. It's among the highest in the nation. Is that right? And one of the most burdensome. Is that right? Exactly. So Louisiana licenses the most occupations out of all of the states. But Hawaii's licenses still rank as the most burdensome in the country. And that's mainly because occupational licenses require other things that you don't necessarily see. So the fees and the exams and things like that are the high barriers that that individuals who want to work have to overcome first before they're even able to to first start working in their desired profession. Oh, I see. So Hawaii's occupational licensing requirements just have a lot of requirements in them. You have to work for a longer than any other state and pay more fees than the other state and so on. So what was the justification behind that, though? Why would they pass laws like that? So it really depends. And I certainly don't want to speak for the legislators in Hawaii, but the entrenched interests of certain groups really want to ensure that other people do not enter into their field. And a great way to do that is to erect high barriers to entry. So, for example, Hawaii requires an average of 972 days for education and training before individuals can start working for those licenses, where the national average is about 350. So the justifications, it's hard to square that given the fact that it's more than double what the national average is. I see. So a lot of it is just protectionism, trying to keep the other competitors out of your industry. And so if the licensing requirements are higher than the barrier to entry into those jobs are harder, but what about the supposed justification? I mean, they're not passing laws or justifying this on those grounds, right? So what are they saying they want the laws for? Well, it really depends. And again, with the wide breadth of occupations, it's hard to kind of generally figure or to generalize exactly what legislators deem licenses necessary for. But for some of the licenses, health and sanitation concerns or being able to, you know, regulate the amount of individuals in the space and that sort of thing. I see. So when it comes to let's take safety, for example, I mean, that's when you just think of is we need licenses to keep people safe. We need occupational licenses so that my painter doesn't fall off the ladder or damage my property or something. So assuming that's the justification, are licenses successful in that? So so no, not typically, right? So licenses don't necessarily make certain professions safer. And we see that, especially when you compare some careers and fields that are more directly related to safety, like EMTs versus those that aren't like cosmetologists. So Hawaii actually, in fact, lowered the education and training requirement for EMTs, but maintains the high barrier to entry for cosmetologists, including braiders, where there's very little and it's very rare for health and sanitation item or issues to occur. So licensing doesn't necessarily protect safety. And they're definitely better alternatives to to to fixing that issue than than licensing. I see. And and so licensing may not help, but does it hurt? Have you ever come across any research that shows that occupational licensing actually gets in the way of health and safety and some of the goals that they want? So, you know, by keeping by keeping skilled professionals out and requiring licenses sometimes for things that aren't directly attributed to those professions, that could certainly harm or create a cause for harm for licensing. So think of a profession like eyelash technicians, right? eyelash technicians have private certification that that proves their their training. And they should have that training in order to safely provide their services. However, you know, currently in Hawaii, there's no requirement. There's no requirement or there's nothing that says that you need specific eyelash training. What you need is some sort of cosmetology license where they don't even teach eyelash training. So aesthetics professionals can go and buy those products and become eyelash techs without that specialized training. And that could, you know, create some sort of potential health and sanitation risk. I see. Well, and a lot of it just doesn't make sense. I mean, you recently co-authored a column in the Honolulu Star Advertiser. And in it, you argued that the state should, quote, repeal all barboring and cosmetology licensing. Now, could you explain that? Sure. So Hawaii's state auditor has studied the beauty industry five times since 1980. And each time the license they found the licenses for our cosmetologists and barbers are unnecessary. And so, you know, I think that is a very clear example of the fact that, you know, the state auditor has found that these licenses aren't required. They aren't necessary. But legislators haven't moved and taken that recommendation to try to reform the system to allow individuals to be able to work. I see. And what would repealing those licenses do? How would that help? Of course. So by repealing those licenses, especially for niche beauty service providers, that would allow people to enter into the field without having to undergo state mandated training requirements. So right now, cosmetologists, niche beauty service providers, things like that, they're required to go to certain cosmetology training programs where many of them accrue student debt and spend lots and lots of time unrelated to the actual profession that they want to be able to work in. And so, again, there are there are alternatives to regulating this space. A cosmetology license doesn't necessarily fit. What would fit, perhaps, would be facility inspections, right? So if the goal is to, you know, really ensure health and sanitation and to make sure that the public safe that way, facility inspections are the best way to to regulate the industry and make sure that there aren't bad actors. I see. Well, when we were talking about this issue with our audience, we we have a newsletter on the Grassard Institute of Hawaii website and met thousands of people read our stuff. And we were pointing to your article and talking about this. And we got a lot of comments, one person wrote, I have a friend that this restriction harms. She said, why do our legislators spend more time trying to suppress local small business than support it? Someone on TikTok, which if you go to Oahu Joe on TikTok, you'll see some licensing content there. And she said, I was literally just talking about transferring my cosmetology license and it's a hassle, too. And so a lot of this affects a lot of people on the ground here in Hawaii. What would you say to those people? Well, what I would say to those people is one, get in contact with us. Let us help you to work on to work on bills and legislation to remove those licenses that are burdensome. You know, sometimes I think that legislators just aren't aware of the issues that come with licensing and so making sure that your voices are heard, especially with licenses that have that are that don't exist in other states having that evidence there. That's the best way to to start breaking down those barriers. And there's there's a lot of good reasoning and support behind that. So good. Well, another of our readers said that she disagreed with us. She said, licensing is a tool to protect the public. So what would you say to her? And and also, you know, for the sake of argument, how would you respond to someone who says that cosmetology licenses, in particular, help protect people from untrained beauticians? Right. So first and foremost, with cosmetologists in the cosmology industry and generally for small businesses and entrepreneurs, you know, we say unlicensed doesn't mean untrained, right? These individuals are trained, they're skilled, especially if they're working in the space, especially if they're starting their own businesses, those. And that's those are the people that these bills are working to support. And, you know, I think we would have to have an honest conversation as to what licenses you're talking about, especially in the beauty industry for these niche beauty services, like hair braiding or makeup artistry. There is very little and little evidence and it's exceedingly rare that individuals cause health and sanitation problems. What we actually find, in fact, is that most of the enforcement actions that happen to these niche beauty service providers, so the care breakers think eyebrow threaders actually comes from them not having a license, not actually harming anyone. And so I think that's indicative of the fact that, you know, people want to ensure that people have a license, but it's not actually making anyone safer because these individuals aren't harming anyone. OK, but how would how would you deal with market quality? OK, so now we repeal all of these occupational licenses for beauticians and cosmetologists. And and all of a sudden the quality drops on the market. You you might not be really happy with the service that you get. So so how would you deal with that argument? Right. So first and foremost, the research shows that removing licenses doesn't actually lower doesn't actually lower the quality of service in the market space. In fact, it usually raises the the the quality just because there are more service providers and people have a have a wider breadth of individuals to choose from, especially in the beauty industry. And so, you know, I think it really comes down to exactly, you know, what you know, what skill are you looking for? What are you trying to get at? And and also the the market doesn't necessarily the way that individuals choose providers doesn't necessarily change whether or not there's a license there. There's a license that exists even now for regulated, licensed occupations, individuals choose to find their their providers through word of mouth, reputation, online reviews like Yelp and Google. That's where the market, that's where consumers go to look for qualified individuals, very few people are checking to see if their painters have have a license. That's true. We look to Yelp, not the government, a lot of times when we're trying to find the best place for service. But I want to talk about your new report at the Institute for Justice License to Work. And this is version three of this. We've been following this for many years. It's been really helpful. But this third version looks at reforms. Also, that states have been putting in some states have been increasing licensing requirements. Other states have been getting rid of them. But on net, are we going for more licensing or less fewer? Of course. So as you mentioned, this is our third edition of license to work. And it's an updated snapshot of licensing, licensing's extent and burden by cataloging state licensing requirements for, again, 102 lower income occupations across all 50 states. And this edition also includes Puerto Rico and a compare states feature. So if you're interested, you can go to the website and compare Hawaii versus any of the 50 states in Puerto Rico, which is really, really interesting. But to answer your second question, you know, on the whole, we've seen about a 20 percent decrease in licensing across the across the country overall. And I think that's because, you know, meant both political administration, so the Obama administration, the Trump administration and the Biden administration has called for states to really take a look at occupational licensing and has really highlighted it as a barrier for workers across the country. So for the most part, we've seen a decrease, but that doesn't mean that there isn't work to do because there certainly is. I see. Would you say that this issue cuts across partisan lines? Or is it is it a partisan? It's kind of a local issue, wouldn't you say? Yeah, it's a state by state issue, and it really shouldn't be partisan. And we find that, you know, it often isn't because there there are interests for for for everyone, right? I think all states and including Hawaii are interested in bringing people to their state, making their state open to work, creating opportunities for current citizens. And that's what occupational licensing does. I always like to add and specifically highlight some of the states that have enacted great cosmetology licensing reforms, like Minnesota and 2020, when they removed the requirement for makeup artists and hairstylists to have a full cosmetology license. There was literally a thousand new individuals who were who were able to register with this with the state to be able to start working in that space. Also, in Arkansas, when it passed its shampooer and blow dry bar extension exemption, my apologies, Bill, the first blow dry bar in the state opened up. So that is concrete proof that when you remove these barriers, individuals see the opportunity they come and they want to build and they want to work. So I'm embarrassed to say, I don't know what a blow dry bar is. That is OK. So a blow dry bar is essentially a place where individuals can go, get their hair washed, shampoo dried and have their hair arranged. So there's no cutting, there's no coloring, there's no dyes, there's no chemical processes happening, and it's just this booming industry. But most states require the individuals who just want to provide those services to have a full cosmetology license, which is absolutely ridiculous. And so by removing that barrier, it allows these businesses to open up. It supports industries like the wedding industry that wholeheartedly relies on independent makeup artists and hairstylists, as well as the entertainment industry. So it's really a win-win for everyone. I'm going back to that Hawaii auditor study you mentioned about one study earlier this year recommended against mandating license for community health workers. So in prior studies, the auditor usually recommended against licensing. Like in Hawaii, in Hawaii's state auditor reports, do we usually recommend against licensing? So I'm not terribly familiar with most of Hawaii's state auditor's reports when it comes to occupational licensing. But I will add if they've done the research, if they've reviewed the licenses and they've actually taken a look at the needs and that's the outcome that they've come to, I think legislators should listen and should react to those findings. Other than completely abolishing mandatory license things, what kind of reforms would you suggest to improve it? Of course. So first and foremost, exemptions for niche and safe occupations should be first, right? So in the cosmetology space, again, we are huge proponents of niche beauty exemptions. So niche beauty services are services that are safe because they don't they don't use dangerous chemicals or dyes and they don't use dangerous mechanical devices either. So you're we're talking about eyebrow threading, makeup, artistry, hair braiding, blow dry styling, that sort of thing. All of those sorts of services should be exempted from state licensure because there's very little evidence and it's exceedingly rare again that there is any justification for for those licenses because individuals can provide them safely and they're not typically taught in cosmetology programs. But if there is a demonstrated need for for government regulation, there's there's a whole slew of of alternatives for regulating these spaces. So again, inspections, that is that that's the next kind of step, right? So ensuring that the government has the ability to inspect facilities for health and sanitation concerns or things like mandated insurance for liability purposes for bonds and insurance for for fields where that makes sense, right? And so, you know, there are many alternatives and licensing shouldn't be the first stop, it should really be the last. And can you talk about professional certification? How is that different than mandatory licensing? Of course. So private certification and professional certification are choices that an individual can make for their education. We are huge proponents of private certification. It's a it's a great way to learn your craft and to and to be able to get your foot in the door. The difference between a license and private certification is a license is mandated to to be able to work and it doesn't. And the education requirement doesn't necessarily go towards exactly what your the service or the field that you're trying to to offer. So private certification is something that you get to choose. You get to choose where it's done. And, you know, I liken it to kind of like a college degree, right? That is that is where you should hold your value. So I hold my value in my law degree. I think, you know, cosmetologists or chefs, for instance, that's another great example, holding value in that education, and that private certification is is what we advocate for. I see. Now, another comment that came in when we were talking about your work is someone said, what about physicians licensed to practice in other states not having reciprocity here in Hawaii, a barrier and a cause of fewer specialists? So what would you say to to that issue? The Hawaii has a severe shortage of health care professionals. And maybe some of the professionals on the mainland could practice here, except occupational licensing gets in the way. So how would you make that easier? Of course. So I think recognition is the best way to do that, right? Allowing legislators allowing Hawaii to recognize the training and the licenses of health care professionals in other states when they when they move into Hawaii would be the best. Now, how would you what's the different? You said recognition and I've heard reciprocity. But what are those two? What's the difference between those two terms? Sure, of course. So recognition is something that Hawaii can do on its own. Hawaii can recognize a license. It can evaluate the license and accept the license on its own. Reciprocity or state compacts would require Hawaii to enter into agreements with other states and to and to create a quite frankly, like a compact across states in order that individuals would have to meet in order to be able to freely move within those states. So I see exactly. So recognition retains Hawaii's autonomy in this occupational licensing. I see. So for for recognition, we wouldn't need to the cumbersome step of trying to agree on a complicated compact with the collection of other states. We could just recognize the licenses in other states and recognize them as professionals in their fields and able to work here. Is that right? Exactly. And it's something that legislators could immediately do to to ameliorate and to fix worker shortage problems, right? Compacts take a lot longer of a time and a lot more negotiations with different state governments. And so you wouldn't see the effects of it as quickly as as recognition. Oh, when you look across the nation at this issue, especially those places that have had successes when it comes to reducing occupational licensing requirements, what are some of the stories you've seen? And we only have one minute left here, by the way, of course. So I will end on a happy note. Most of the results that we've seen have been success stories, right? So again, when you lower these barriers, jobs and opportunities, you know, become available and are bound and people can immediately take take those take those opportunities. So it's it's a great way for states to really address worker shortage issues and workforce issues. That's great. Well, hopefully we can adopt some of those things that have worked here and help our economy and help folks find a job. So thanks so much, Jessica Poitras, for joining us today. Jessica, again, is the attorney with the Institute for Justice. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks so much, Aloha, and thanks so much to you, our viewers, for watching another episode of Hawaii together. Until next time, Aloha.