 So there's a point towards having driver behaviours, it's a travel mechanism. Oh yeah, the defences. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the defences. Yeah. Like all the other defences we have psychologically, they're very, very important because without these psychological defence systems we'd have to then really feel the pain, the trauma, you know, the difficulties and hurts for my childhood. Yeah. Thanks. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. So welcome back to the next episode. We're on episode 63 with me, Jackie Jones and the wonderful Bob Cook. And we're going to follow on from the earlier two podcast episodes that we've done. We're looking at all five driver behaviours. And we've done Be Perfect. And we did Try Hard. So this week we're going to be looking at Be Strong. Another one that's close to my heart, Bob. Yeah. I was thinking, since we did the last one in the last podcast on drivers, I'm thinking, I've got two dogs, Charles Cavaliers. And I was thinking about driver behaviour with the dogs. Interesting. Being strong and being perfect and trying hard and please me. I'm sure there's a friend of mine who's a dog therapist and I haven't got to ask her yet. But I'm sure they have the, they have behaviour, behavioural drivers as well. My dog's definitely a please others or a please me, 100%. Yeah. Well, Charles Cavaliers are famous for pleasing and pleasing others. Yeah. Especially around food. Yes. Yeah. Mine just follows me around everywhere. We're getting back to human people. Human people, human beings. Yeah. So do you want to give a quick synopsis on drivers for the people who didn't need to listen to the last two podcasts? I will do. I will do. Drivers is connected with our life script and formed early on in life, probably before the age of seven, even earlier, where we got recognition and validation and praise from our parents for displaying certain personality traits, whether that's being strong or pleasing them or trying really hard or whatever it is. So that then becomes part of our, I always say part of our DNA or our genetic makeup, but it's not really in our DNA. It's just part of who we become as adults and we tend to replay that in our relationships every day, but it all goes back to earlier decisions that we made. And I think that's an important point, Bob. It's earlier decisions that we made. We made the decision to do it. So what I often say is that we can make a new decision if it's not working for us. Yeah. I think that's very important. And secondly, very important, they're linked to injunctions. Yes. That's very, very important. You want to say a little bit about that? Yeah. Well, the injunctions, do we refer to those as counterscripts or something? No, just call them injunctions. Those are all the don't messages. Don't be you. Don't be a girl. Don't be well. Don't be ill. Don't be a child. Don't be a grown up. Don't just don't do anything. The one that always resonated with me and it kind of shocked me was the don't exist. That's a hard one to even read. Yeah. There's some T.A. There's that believe that don't exist. Is it the bottom of everybody's script? Yeah. Especially if you link it with, and this isn't a T.A. therapist. I was thinking of Irvin Yellum's ideas and many therapists actually, especially existential therapists who believe, you know, from the day we're born, we're dealing with death anxiety. Yeah. But I think it's, we were talking about don't exist injunctions. It's the child that very early on. I was at an unverbal level decides that, you know, under, you know, that living is pretty shit. Yeah. And so therefore if I do this, this and this, which are the driver behaviors, I can go on life, get some recognition, but underneath that adaptation are the feelings that accompany the person in terms of existence like worthlessness, hopelessness, dread, futility, all those feelings. So instead of feeling those, they adapt driver behavior. Yeah. So there's a point to us. I've been driver behaviors. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The defences. Yeah. Like all the other defences we have psychologically, they're very, very important because without these psychological defense systems, we'd have to then really feel the pain, the trauma, you know, the difficulties and hurts for my childhood. Yeah. And I think that's the thing with psychotherapy that I love is, you know, even the things that we don't like, there's a point to them. Yeah. I mean, these, what you're talking about here, what we're talking about, sorry, driver behavior, which comes from transaction analysis. They are defences. Yeah. Really very important to remember that. And they're defences against us feeling really terrible, futility, hopelessness, neglect, trauma, all those feelings we don't want to feel. So if we, so if we follow the behaviors that our parents actually give us recognition from, then we'll get on in life. Yeah. And for me, that's usually when I notice my driver behavior is more so than other times is when, when I'm tired, when I'm not feeling well, when something's going on, you know, behind the scenes that nobody knows about type of thing. That's when I notice that I'm in my best strong or be perfect. And under stress, our level of intensity around those behaviors become more evident. Yeah. And it seems, for me, I know I talk personally on these podcasts because I do tend to share my stuff. It's a good way of avoiding things. If I'm in my driver behavior, particularly when I'm aware that I'm in it, I just do lots of stuff. I just get busy and do lots of stuff. And I know that that's me avoiding something, whatever that is. Usually feelings. Yes, definitely. 100%. I'm a thinker and a doer. I don't do feelings. Yeah. When you defend against the feelings, then under a cute stress, sometimes maybe you might feel them, but I suspect the defenses are quite strong. As in most people, then we don't have to feel those feelings. Now, for a therapist needs to honor those defense systems and work with them to get at what's underneath. Yeah. Not to, you know, persuade or give permission for the client to, you know, take them down, for example. So you work with the defenses to get to the feelings, which drive the person in some ways to put, to have these defenses in the first place. So any therapy, hopefully would work with the defense systems to get at what's underneath. When you're talking about the defense systems and getting underneath, you're talking about the injunctions. There's for anybody that. Talk about the driver. Oh, yes. Sorry. Just just quick. I'm talking about working with the drivers, which I see as the defenses to get to what's underneath the defenses, which is usually the real person's feelings. Yeah. Because anybody that works with TA will probably know what I'm talking about. I haven't actually got a picture of it. The picture of the drowning man with the balloons that hold up. Yeah. One of the things I think that a lot of the time we can do is to work on the drivers, which basically is cutting off one of the balloons so that the injunctions that are bricks on the feet kind of weigh heavier and we go under a bit. Am I right in saying that? So we don't want to get our clients to not use the driver behavior because it is there as a defense mechanism. It's doing something for them. If we go underneath it and look at the injunctions and the don't exist, don't be you and work on that in therapy, then we don't need the driver behavior as much. Yeah. Yes. I know that diagram you're talking about where it's a man sort of in the sea of life, if you like, and holding up five balloons, which symbolize the five set of drivers. Yeah. These may try hard, you know, hurry up, be perfect, be strong and attached under the water with all these injunctions we're talking about or negative process which we nonverbally take on from our parents. And you're absolutely right. The therapist needs to work with the defense systems and make sure that those, you know, that balloon, if you like, which are the defense systems aren't cut. Yeah. That keeps the person still buoyant if you like. And then at the same time work with the process underneath the balloons if you want to look at that way. Yeah. Because if somebody, you know, has got to be strong driver and we're constantly working on them and encouraging them to, you know, to not be strong than to show their feelings and to be vulnerable and all that sort of stuff. It's probably going to, you know, cause the client to be more anxious and more stressed. And it's the wrong way of doing it. It's back to front somewhere for me. Yeah. So if we talk about the, you're actually right. In terms of treatment. And if we're talking about being strong, a driver, the heavier particularly, then that's, that's the, you know, the command or what, or the, what comes from the parents that the child gets stroke for. Yeah. By being strong, they get stroke by the parents. And therefore they carry that out as a way of hopefully getting recognition in the present or the future rather than feeling the feelings of what's underneath the being strong command. So being strong means putting on a basically look at this way, putting on armor and being Mr. Teflon. Teflon. Yeah. And just carrying on whatever may be, I will just carry on in life. People can throw whatever they like at me. I will just carry on whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Stoic is one word that always comes to mind when I think of somebody with a B strong, you sort your own council out. We don't really talk about things with other people until after the fact. We don't really talk about it. Yeah. I don't think men particularly here. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not saying the female gender doesn't have, they don't have B strongs particularly, but I think the male culture, you know, it's often fed down to men boys really early boys don't cry and yeah, or my little soldier, whatever phrases you want to pick or parental slogans. I think boys get this command if you like, a lot earlier and decide a lot earlier. It's a sort of a really common command for little boys to get strokes from their parents for. Yeah. Strong and keep the feelings at bay and just carry on and be my little soldier throughout life. And I think, you know, boys get these messages more intensely than females. Yeah. And, you know, the B strongs, if you want to look at this way, behaviors are very evident. Like for boys early on for many, many boys and boarding schools, as I said earlier on, are simply an extension of the same culture. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And, you know, people with a B strong driver often don't show emotion. There's not a lot of facial expressions that go along with it if somebody's in that driver and the body language can be quite closed, you know, with their arms folded and things, which again, I think a lot of men do do, you know, it's kind of inbuilt in women that we talk about things. Men often being the hunter-gatherer type, if there's a problem, they find a solution. That's it. We don't need to talk about it. That's the problem is the solution. Crack on and do it. There's a lot of stereotypes that kind of go along with that. Certainly don't express feelings. Yeah. Yeah. And so you can get people, let's take, we'll talk about men. And we get a lot of men may come into therapy if, for lots of different reasons. If they've got a very big defence system around being strong at costs of everything else, then it takes a lot for them to come into therapy because of fear being vulnerable. And they also are going against their parent or significant other people's command. Yeah. Psychologically. And that's difficult. Yeah. And 2022, I started being therapist in 1985, but now in 2022. And you see many more men coming to therapy. I think that's because therapy has become more popular. It's more accessible. And they, they are more likely to come now to look at problems. But still, if the person's got a very big strong defence, they fear vulnerability. Yeah. And it's quite difficult for them. It is. And, you know, if there are any men out there listening to this, whether they're therapists or counsellors or just, you know, wanting to know a little bit more about it. I always say to all my clients that, you know, we can't be vulnerable without being courageous. It's an awful lot of courage to take that first step to contacting a therapist and to having therapy. I think vulnerability and courage come together. They always do. Couldn't agree more. Yeah. Thanks a lot of courage for men and women who have solid defence systems about being strong to come to therapy in the first place. And as I say, they have a great fear of vulnerability. And often in childhood, especially boys, I think, again, ashamed if they don't be, if they're not being strong or if they're not being the big man or the macho character. So expressing feelings for them is quite difficult because they didn't get that recognition in childhood. Yeah. So they decided that being strong was how they would, it's like oxygen, how they would survive. Yeah. Do you think that's changing? Psychotherapy is more accessible, more popular, but culturally, is that changing, being passed down to boys? Yes, I do think so, bit by bit. It's still very much, still a parental slogan that is passed down a lot, I think. But I do think that bit by bit, there's more permissions for the little boy to express feelings than there was generations ago. The little boy, maybe not the older one, because we still hear those phrases like being in touch with your feminine side. If you're sensitive or having the snowflake generation, evidently, 2020 is creating the snowflake generation where they're all soft and melt and all those. I've never heard that phrase before. No. What's that? It's all over social media, it was. I don't know. I suppose because when we were going through COVID and we couldn't go out and people were struggling with it, there were a lot of people saying, oh, it's the snowflake generation. And when we were in the war, we didn't have television and we couldn't sit and play games. You're either going to be strong or you're a snowflake. There's no middle room to it. Oh, Jackie. So it's like a derogatory sentence. Yes. Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah. You know, we're bringing up soft people now. So it's just the feeling of being a snowflake which is a derogatory sentence construction. Yeah. And you know, if I suppose for most people, if you're going to be described as either strong or a snowflake, you're going to go for the strong one because there's a lot more positive connotations with that than what there is for somebody that's sensitive or in touch with the feminine side. Well, I've never heard that frame, but I'm sure it's all over the internet. It's a shame, really, because I think that the question was, do I think it's becoming more popular of meant to come to therapy? Yes. Yeah. Is it, you know, is the intensity of the strong message lessened more by significant other people and parents? I don't know. It'd be good research to do. Yeah. I think we like labelling people as well. We do like to categorise people. Yeah, define people. Yeah. Yeah. And define men as in a certain way. I wouldn't like to see, but certainly I see more many therapy in this generation than before, even though it's a cultural norm, I think, for men to be strong. So what we need to do if we're working with the drivers in the therapy room is look at the decisions that were made early on and how that's impacting on them in everyday life now, because I quite like some of my driver behaviour. I don't want to get rid of everything. I don't think it's about getting rid of driver behaviours. I think it's about looking at vulnerability, shame underneath the process. And if it's not causing any difficulty, these drivers behaviours, say in relationships or life, we won't necessarily see these people that want to look at this. But people come with, for example, intimacy issues where they feel vulnerable if they're sharing or expressing parts of themselves. That might be because they've decided they have to be strong because that's what's was modelled to them or passed down to them years ago. Yeah. So they carry on like a little soldier. They carry on being a strong person, which was recommended to them or passed down to them by their significant others and they got recognition for. However, when they're in relationships, if they continue to be stoic and shut down and being strong when actually they want to have perhaps at some level more intimacy, that might bring problems in relationships or communication breakdowns. And they may come to therapy to explore that. Yeah. And again, you know, in relationships, some of these driver behaviours work quite well together and some don't. If you've got to be strong or to please others that are in a relationship, you know, and they're both trying to please each other or you've got to try hard where they're both trying really, really hard all the time. They just highlighting some stresses within the relationship. Yeah, absolutely. And usually somebody's got to say, be strong driver behaviour. They may, they may find it that process attractive with other women or men or partners that have the same driver behaviour. However, I think they tend to look for other people who can do the emotional housework for them. Yeah. In other words, with different adaptations. That's a lovely phrase. I like that. The emotional housework for them. Yeah. That's the, that's what happens to people like the men who carry on with this be strong because they fear being vulnerable and fear expressing emotions because they're psychological processes. Then they may find women who can express emotions for them. And that's what I mean by doing the emotional housework. Yeah. I love that. So people that have got to be strong. I'm looking at my books here. What I always get out. I usually antisocial or charming manipulators. That's, that's one of the ones that it's connected to. Or the creative daydreamer and schizoid. So, so are you saying that people have a lot of intensity on be strong defense systems will be attracted to people who are withdrawn or schizoid by character? Well, those are the ones that the primary drivers are connected to. Yeah. So it's somebody with a be strong driver might go with somebody that's an enthusiastic overreactor or histrionic. Those two would go quite well. That makes sense because somebody is histrionic. You know, if we're talking about the nickname of the enthusiastic reactor, they're going to be people that have got stroked for actually, you know, expressing emotions and they express emotions easily. Yeah. So it doesn't surprise me that somebody who's got the intensity of a be strong would be attracted to people could do the emotional housework. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a minefield in all of this as always with anything working with the mind and psychotherapy. Yeah. I just want to repeat again. If I had to do some research on couples therapy, I haven't had any research on couples therapy, but I'd like to do now and talk on this podcast. I think that you would find that probably one of the major reasons why couples come to therapy is because communication breaks down. Yeah. And usually quite often it breaks down because some and usually the man is sticking intensely to their being strong behaviors and not allowing their partner in, not only allowing them to express feelings with them or so intimacy gets threatened and often by being strong and closed off, they start to realize often by the impact and feedback from their partner that things aren't going particularly well in the relationship. Yeah. So they want to keep the relationship going and as some levels do want some intimacy, but they don't know how to let down their defenses. And that's often one of the major issues or dynamics that couples come to therapy for. Yeah. That's it. And you know, on the surface level, it's all around communication, but the more we go down and down and down, the driver behavior and the injunctions are usually, well, it's always in there somewhere. Yeah. And another example I would like to say is when we have children and often the male doesn't want to pass down that be strong process to their child because they want the boy or girl to have a different experience to them. So that often brings the person into a process where they want to change their be strong. I think having children shines a light on most things really. Yeah. We don't want those cycles to carry on. Yeah. Because a lot of this is kind of like, I know there was a phrase used in my training, it's like a hot potato. We just pass it on whatever we're doing. You know, if we don't know any different, we don't know how to be any different. We just pass it on through the generations. The stuff I have doesn't actually belong to me. It belongs to somebody else further up the line. That's right. Unless therapy has become more popular and accessible in 2022, when I started out in 1985, more and more people see therapy or stroke counselling as a way to talk about these issues. Yeah. I think people have got very intense be strong drivers. I applaud them for coming to therapy. Me too. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, in the therapy room and with trust and all those sort of things, if they're like, you know, stoic and standalone and I don't need anybody for them to share certain things in the therapy room, it is showing an immense amount of courage and vulnerability all rolled into one. That's right. I think the therapist needs to have a quality of patience. Yeah. An understanding of the defence system of being strong and what's underneath that to help them with this treatment. Yeah. Usually about in transactional systems, finding the youngest child and the vulnerable child, which has been hidden, if you like, or protected to the odd word here, but covered up by the strong driver. So until the next one, Bob, where we're going to be looking at please others and hurry up, we're going to do a double whammy for the next one. Oh, we're going to do two more drivers. Two more. Two squashed into one. Oh, great. Great. See you in the next one. Bye. Bye. Bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.