 Hi everybody, thanks for coming. This is Drupal Diversity Inclusion. It is our sort of initiative update. We are Drupal Diversity Inclusion. I am the leader of the group. My name is Tara King. You might know me on the internet as Sparkling Robots. And I work for Pantheon. And I'll let you all introduce yourselves. Yeah. Well, I guess we're going in reverse order. So, hi, I'm Ellie. I currently work for Open Strategy Partners as a content and communications marketing person or just whatever needs doing. In the Drupal community, I'm with the Drupal Diversity Inclusion Leadership Team, as I said, and also the mentoring team. So, that's what I do. I probably do some other stuff too. Alana. Hi, I'm Alana. You can find me online at Averc626 on Slack. I'm just my name, Alana Burke. I'm also a Slack admin if you need any help. I'm a developer and also a Drupal trainer. I'm currently freelancing and contracting, but I would very much love to have a full-time job. So, if you're hiring, please talk to me. She's great. Just a little plug. All right. That's actually to you. Okay. So, when we do this presentation, we usually do a land acknowledgement. And in North America, this is usually some kind of indigenous, non-white people. And when I went to do research for the Netherlands, this is a little bit of a different kind of a land acknowledgement than we're used to. But we wanted to do something all the same. So, in my research, I came across the Frisians, who are a minority people dating back to 700 BCE. And so, Frisian is their language. It's a West Germanic language, spoken in its West Frisian form by an estimated 400,000 people who live in the province of Friesland, where the total population is about 640,000. It's also spoken by another 300,000 people who left Friesland to find work elsewhere in the Netherlands. And most Frisians are bilingual in both Friesian and Dutch. I also read that Friesian is a language that is one of the most similar to English of all the other languages out there. Some of the earliest settlements in Friesland date to about 700 BCE, and the Friesians became a distinctive tribe in about 200 BCE. They resisted the Romans in 250 BCE. Friesland was flooded, and the Friesians moved to Flanders and England before actually returning in 400. And then in 1648, Friesland joined the United Republic of the Netherlands, which hastened the decline of their language, which was already under pressure from German and Dutch. But it marked the beginning of modern Friesian movement and culture. And so today, under the legal system, so Friesian can be used in courts of law, it's a legal official language, but the official language of legal documents is Dutch. So in 2001, the Netherlands and the Friesian government signed a covenant to sort of help the continuation and the fostering of the Friesian language, but it sort of isn't quite up to par to how some people would like it, and they feel that their culture and their language are still kind of declining, and they feel like the Dutch government really isn't doing enough. So I thought this was really interesting, and it's still kind of the same story that we see in other indigenous cultures, that we might look at these people and say, well, they don't look any different. It was really interesting, and then I found a lot of stuff about their sort of historic costumes and traditional garb that they wear. So that's just a little bit about a land acknowledgement right here in Amsterdam. So today we're going to discuss a handful of topics. The first one, why do we care about anything other than code? Drupal's software, why do we care about the rest of it? We're going to talk about some common misconceptions about diversity in tech. Nine things you can do to make a difference. And who are we? Who is DDI? Who is Drupal Diversity and Inclusion? So why do we care about anything other than code? Because software is people. Just like Soylent Green, software is actually made of people. It has our vision, our values, our language, and even our biases built into it. So who makes the software matters? And there's no such thing as neutral. We want to believe in facts and objectivity and we want to believe that this code that gets boiled down to zeroes and ones is just neutral, but it can't be. We cannot help but to center things on our own perspective. Ken Rickard had a fantastic talk last year that said that monocultures often can't see their own biases. It's like being nose-blind to your own smell. You can't help, but everything around you is about you. So stop trying to work towards some kind of baseline that really isn't going to be as objective as you think. So we encode our values into the things that we create. Software is made by humans. All humans have values. All humans have biases. So our software has our biases whether conscious or not built into it. Values are things that you think are good or bad. Maybe you love certain kinds of music. You love your family even though they might be problematic. You appreciate your family's culture, history. Maybe you hate clowns. Maybe you love well-documented code. Maybe you hate flash. Maybe you value fairness, whatever it is. Nobody is truly neutral. No one lives a truly neutral existence. Especially when we're surrounded by other humans. So these values are also biases. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's negative. I like kittens and guinea pigs. That's a bias. No one's going to say that that's a bad thing, but it's a bias. I am biased towards kittens and guinea pigs. But many times we grow up exposed to ideas about other people that we just take for granted. Even if we objectively learn that they are not true, those patterns remain imprinted on our brains. So our software has our biases whether conscious or not built into it. And algorithms aren't neutral. It's just like our code. They're built by us. By humans. Oh, here's a quote. After an audit of the algorithm, the resume screening company found that the algorithm found two factors to be the most indicative of job performance. If their name was Jared and whether they played high school to cross. So this was an article called companies are on the hook if their hiring algorithms are biased. Amazon thought it would be smart to use neutral forms to assess job applicants instead of humans. Because humans are biased and machines aren't, right? But if we put garbage in, we get garbage out. So they fed it their existing employees and so the algorithm just reinforced the stereotypes of all the humans who already worked there. So all the humans who had already done the hiring and all of the stereotypes that they already had were just reinforced by the algorithm. That's all that happened. And the word women, like in women's sports, would cause the algorithm to specifically rank applicants lower. Yeah. It was the whole thing. It was just a disaster. So we all have our personal biases. But when our history and institutions are built on top of bias, this is when we have structural inequality. So we encode our biases into the institutions and cultures that we create. So this leads to generations of injustice. And then discrimination moves from a personal issue into a systemic problem. And this ensures that inequality continues even without anyone actually being racist or sexist. So we have a generation now where everyone is saying why does this matter? We're not racist and we're not sexist. Well, maybe our parents and our grandparents and their grandparents were. And the institutions that they built reflected their values and their biases. And that's the world that we're living in. So those are the things that we have to change. And that's the reason that we have to change because of the structural inequality that was built from a world that 100 years ago or whatever, we don't live in that world anymore. So sociologists who study inequality distinguish between individual bias which is negative beliefs about a group held by individual persons and systemic inequality which is unequal outcomes built into our institutions that will produce inequality even in the absence of biased individuals. And this is sort of a we've got an image here of a pyramid enjoying we've got a society here which has the pharaoh and our government officials and our soldiers and our scribes and our merchants and our artisans and our farmers and our slaves and there's bias that's been built into society since the beginning of time like there have always been people who were thought of as lesser as people who had to haul blocks of limestone up the pyramids to build them and unless you somehow reverse those inequalities and that systemic injustice that was done you're not going to be able to do anything to fix it and it's just going to keep happening. So these systems privilege some people whether they want it or not privilege isn't something you can choose to opt in or out of I didn't choose to have white privilege men didn't choose to have male privilege but we got it anyway. So the question that matters isn't whether we have it but what are we going to do with it so it's important to understand it. Really great quote here is in the role playing game known as the real world straight white male is the lowest difficulty setting there is. You can lose playing on the lowest difficulty setting but the lowest difficulty setting is still the easiest setting to win. You know privilege it's not about guilt or blame it's about recognizing that there are systems that advantage or disadvantage entire groups of people through no fault or credit of their own it doesn't mean that you've done anything wrong and it doesn't mean that you have done anything right. So you know I'm a woman but I grew up really really poor I grew up with a single mom but I also grew up with a really really educated mom who did everything she could to get me into every class and give me every kind of education and advantage you could ever imagine and nobody knew how poor we were because education you know you look at well-dressed educated kid and you never think about that so you know I had advantages there so you know these things they you know your privileges they some of them might cancel each other out you know it's not you know just having one privilege doesn't mean that you're automatically you know some sort of magically sailing through life and not having one doesn't mean that you're magically doomed it just means that there are different considerations to take into that affect how you are going to go through life so you know talking about this you know imaginary role-playing game idea of you know this life that we live you know the the default behaviors for all of the straight white male art you know the NPCs that you would run into the non-player characters they're easier on you you know everything that you run into is going to be a little bit easier for you the default barriers for completions of quests are lower you know you're going to level up faster you're going to get more experience faster so it's just about sort of thinking about why that happens and how it happens and stop thinking about you know assigning blame or guilt or wondering why and just sort of accepting that it happens and wondering you know and then thinking you know what are you going to do about it or are you going to you know move forward and thinking about other people's privilege compared to your own and how might you use your own privilege to help other people oops and so the result of privilege is an uneven playing field that perpetuates itself and causes a lot of harm you know privilege tends to be get privileged privileged people have privileged kids who have more privileged kids underprivileged people tend to have underprivileged kids who have more underprivileged kids who have more underprivileged kids you know you can sometimes you can think of it in terms of class like it is very hard to move up in terms of class it's not a direct analogy but you can kind of think of that a little bit you know privileged kids get the good internships and they get the good jobs from the good internships and that stop tends to perpetuate and the people who don't have that privilege tend to not have anything that helps them get more privileged so I think next is me alright so with that basis of sort of where we're coming at in the perspective we're taking I'm going to cover some well intended attitudes that don't actually help in these discussions some of these are things that I have believed in the past or there's certainly I think all of them are things I've heard in the Drupal community for people who think that they're doing good work here and think that this is helping and I think is actually kind of can sometimes perpetuate the systems we're talking about so you know thoughts and prayers aren't always actually what we made in this world sometimes we need action so free speech and tolerance of all give everyone equal opportunity so we love free things in Drupal, free software and all the things right but there's this thing called the paradox of tolerance the paradox of tolerance okay there's too many no's I never think there's too many no's so the paradox of tolerance was sort of coined by Carl Popper who was writing in Germany in like 1945 and basically pointed out that if you tolerate the intolerance tolerance itself will not survive so you know I think sometimes code of conduct type things policies can say like oh everyone's welcome which seems quite inclusive and welcoming but if you welcome someone who hates women I'm not going to feel included as one example right so I think this is something that um especially these open communities we really need to be talking about a lot here's our super handy grasp intolerance cannot be included inside of tolerance it is paradoxical it is strange but it is true open sources and meritocracies are going to get the chance to contribute right like um no sorry it certainly there are many merits to people who contribute to open source and things like that but because there are so many structural barriers against some people trying to contribute to open source um it just there can be the best person in the world who doesn't have internet access or the best person in the world who doesn't speak the language of the project it's um rife with structural barriers that actually prevent meritocracy from being really all that valuable um trees talked about this in seattle keynote there's also a post meritocracy manifesto that some open source contributors have put together um that talks about this super recommend it it's good stuff there are no minorities available to work in tech I'm trying to hire them and they don't apply to my jobs like they just don't exist this is false we're all we're all here we're a real person um this is just one example I got intel set a goal to hire 40 percent from underrepresented my unrepresented people in tech and they got 43 percent and their CEO said basically if the pipeline was the problem I would have failed but the pipeline isn't the problem they certainly could be better um but in general there are plenty of people talented people for underrepresented groups already in tech already with the skills we need um a lot of them work in proprietary software um for a lot of reasons but they have much better diversity than we do um so we need to start sort of investing in our community now making it a safe place for people to be today so that as those people are coming in from the pipeline they have somewhere safe to be and they don't drop out of tech altogether let's just help women in tech first then we'll get to everybody else um we like to talk about issues being intersectional right so a lot of uh diversity tech initiatives say oh we're gonna focus on gender and once we fix gender then we'll fix race then we'll fix whatever um but it doesn't take into account the fact that all of these issues really um sort of intersect and amplify right so there's the experience of being a woman and the experience of being say an immigrant and then the experience of being an immigrant moment is a totally different and unique place those two kinds of oppressions actually um interact and often make it worse um so we like to look at things as intersectionally as possible to bring along all people together rather than you know one group at a time but we have nice policies and good intent uh again intent does not equal impact this is something we talk about a lot so often uh like with microaggressions people aren't actually trying to be mean to you or anything they just don't realize they're on internal biases but if I were to drop an anvil on Ellie yeah it hurts if I dropped it on purpose I should get fired but if I dropped it accidentally it still broke her foot right like you have to actually look at the intent as well as the impact um and I think often impact over intent myself we have one really smart black person let's put her in charge of diversity um certainly if this person is volunteering sure but a lot of times what happens is there's like the one underrepresented person of the company and they're like Ellie will you please take on the charge of improving all of our company culture and fixing our hiring and all of the things this frequently leads to burnout of that employee who's really just trying to like write some software and it also leads to that person becoming a lightning rod for controversial issues within the company and often getting fired um I've heard of that story many times um you should help us hire now we're firing you it's a mess right so um what you want to do is not uh put extra work on people just because they fit a certain demographic whether support them in their goals at work do that kind of you know like make them happy there and then like I said if they volunteer no problem but um it's important to not just make it that person's problem uh we also wanted to use this to talk a little about diversity and diversity inclusion and equity uh you have that one person on your team your team's a little bit more diverse if that person is not actually included that's a problem so we want to make sure that they feel welcome and that they feel like they're part of the team not just like a token hire and then equity is where they actually are a fully participatory fully empowered member of the team that's obviously the goal right we want everyone to be fully empowered and not just like oh we hired you so it'll look better but we're not actually going to listen to you so I think this slide is not looking the way it's supposed to look there we go we'll hide it with butterflies not ellie about butterflies okay hi so I went looking for a quote to put on this slide and I found Susan Tzontae this is actually a book of essays I really enjoyed she said the likelihood that your acts of resistance cannot stop the injustice does not exempt you from acting in what you sincerely and reflectively hold to be the best interests of your community did we all get that cool yeah I don't have to do the slide so but honestly to me this does speak to sort of the moral obligations of participating in a space sorry about the butterflies no it's not your fault problematic today so if you are in a space and you want to continue participating in a space I do feel that you have an obligation to take care of that space and the other people in it it may or may not work out perfectly but you should still try so on that note small things you can do to number one say hi to new people so if there are new folks in your community you haven't seen them before just saying hello how are you welcome this is really hard for me because I'm super shy you may not have noticed that because I was on stage and now I'm here but I'm super shy so some things I do personally are just saying gosh this coffee line is really slow or I wish they had the coffee longer just somebody standing next to it casual conversation doesn't have to be anything fancy but it does help someone feel like they are also welcome and involved in some very tiny way just conversationally less lonely in the crowd there's also noticing who's in the room and who isn't so for example I went to a panel earlier today and I noticed it was fantastic the panel I think was actually a 50-50 representation gender-wise but I looked around the room and I thought this room is not really representative of the same demographic balance I saw in the keynote audience this morning and that just stood out to me I'm not entirely certain what to do about it maybe there was another talk at that time where there were more folks I don't know but I noticed and I'm talking about it familiarize yourself with the code of conduct for events you attend this is pretty important I think Drupal has done a lot of work on our code of conduct to improve it but at the very least just reading it yourself will help you know what's expected of you and help you make any recommendations or changes that you think might help out in the future and it is pretty important to read especially a lot of underrepresented people in the community are probably reading it they know what's available to them that somebody's harassing them it's also like 10 feet tall it's bigger than I am code of conduct hold a space for and amplify the voices of others so the image here is a scarf knit during an event and they were just knitting in a different color for who was speaking so the red were all male folks it's not accessible it's also not accessible the really large amounts of yarn color there are male folks and the last represented color are female folks on binary you get the idea so when you're in a space like this something you can do is just speak up yourself if you were able to and say hey you know Tara and notice that you haven't been speaking do you have anything to add to this conversation that sort of thing be prepared to interrupt harassment and other problematic behaviors similar just speaking up for someone else if you feel safe doing so and saying hey I see that you wrote down examples oh great you've just used the wrong pronouns for my co-worker they are they not a sheet or reminding folks about accessible colors especially when you're knitting talk to friends and colleagues about issues that matter to you this is difficult I think it's difficult but something I do once in a while is just pop a link into a water cooler channel and say hey XY and Z stood out to me in this article that's it see what happens see if anybody else wants to talk about it or be a little more bold if you're not be as bold as you want to be be as mild as you want to be sponsor people is less privileged than you this this is about sponsoring rather than mentoring they're kind of different concepts so mentoring I think is sort of one on one you're teaching someone showing them the ropes helping them understand the system sponsoring is more sharing a spare ticket to I don't know CTO event or maybe you have extra airline miles that you can help somebody else get a ticket to a conference or just sharing some of your privilege whatever way works and fixing your recruitment and hiring I think we already talked about the pipeline a little bit and some of the things you can do are really end to end making sure you have an environment where underrepresented folks will want to be is important so you create a space that's welcoming and then you go out and look for people that you want to be in it and figure out how to keep them there I read an article the other day that said professional development opportunities are very helpful in that regard for a lot of underrepresented folks what else do we have? yes participate in Drupal diversity and inclusion which is a handy segue into our next section I think that's on to me again so a little bit about us we did get a moment in the keynote yesterday so you've got to hear some of our history there so we'll go too far into it but since it found the group in 2016 this was actually a successful session and then a follow up buff where there was just a lot of energy and a lot of people talking and sharing very specific tips and strategies for how they're getting by in the workplace and how they're not getting by in the workplace our mandate really I think is to be a safe space in the community for women, people of color, religious minorities people with different abilities all the people really because we don't see a lot of these people when we say like notice who's in the room you don't see a lot of those folks at the events so we want to provide support there it's hard often to like network when you're different from everyone else at the event we want to help build those networks, that kind of thing so some of the barriers it's so long and it's not even all of them racism, sexism, ableism classism, transphobia homophobia, ageism Islamophobia and anti-semitism xenophobia, language barriers discrimination based on body type or appearance and other forms of oppression that either are not named or invented yet we really like to try to take this intersectional approach and make sure people with all of these forms of oppression acting in their lives have a place to be so this is our current leadership team so Tara is our leader and myself Ellie, Mark Alex and Alex are the rest of our leadership team so these people are involved in the daily operations of DDI and help to run our initiatives so we've recently outlined online how our leadership is chosen so this is included in our Drupal.org documentation which I'm also very happy that we have and then we have an advisory team which is made up of Nikki, our founder Greg, Ruby, Fatima who is our former leader Nat and Heather so these are folks who pop in from time to time based on their availability and we can turn to them for advice and support and knowledge these are just a few of the initiatives we're working on right now I think we might be done with Drupal Europe planning we have updated the freshers you can get the idea we are still, I think working on this deck as the standardized DDI talk working on speaker training and outreach that's been a big deal this year we didn't catch the keynote yesterday it's pretty nifty I think we have another slide about that DDI resources that's my department we have an awesome resource library is what Ellie is also saying when you want to tell someone to RTFM about anything that's testimonial can you repeat the testimonial from the recording when you want to tell someone to RTFM that's the best place to go our website www.drupaldiversity.com slash resources seriously every time I'm like I know I've read an article about XYZ thing it's there, it's great so we have a lot of things going on we're more than welcome to come help out yeah one thing that's coming up in two weeks we've got the train the trainers workshop so following on to the speaker diversity workshop the whole initiative we've got a workshop to train you to run a speaker diversity workshop wherever you are yeah oh no this is you still, sorry no holding space we've got weekly meetings every Thursday at 9am pacific noon eastern I lost track of daylight savings time in Europe sorry we've got the issue queue you can always find something to work on there four o'clock Amsterdam local yes we've got the resource library if you stumble across a cool article or something you want to add just go to the resource library add it it will go through a little approval process me and it'll be up and it's twitter feel free to retweet we're tweeting you've probably seen this one before I will be at the contribution lounge in the morning working on like DDI stuff if you want to come get like learn the ropes of how this works how our issue queue works help me figure out how to run the JavaScript thing come on over are we doing gender fields slash OD open demographics I've got any sorry I'm not putting you on the spot I've got an issue, I actually have the mentor spreadsheet so another project that we've been working on is gender field which for those of you who have been in DRIPLE for longer than a year there used to be a gender field with four options it was what? are you Jesse? this is the famous Jesse sorry my mind is blown right now Jesse started a gender field that was on DRIPLE.org and then we adopted it two years ago anyway it was like a total magical Drupalcon moment where someone was like hey you should take over gender field for DRIPLE 8 and I was like I don't know Jesse, hey Jesse do you want to give me your module and Jesse was like yeah please so anyway we sprinted on it at Nashville I think for the first time and we'll be doing more so come on down we're tying into open demographics which is another open source project that's sort of like a nothing about us without us demographics project so rather than having like a bunch of men decide women's health care not that that has ever happened in the United States we have people who are represented by the demographics offering what they want to be called so our gender field list is like much more comprehensive and inclusive than any other gender field lists I've ever seen anyway long story oh one quick note on contributing most of the time if you ever want to work on a module it goes exactly like that you find the person who's working on the module and you're like hey can I work on your module and they're like yes please and then now you work on that module that's exactly how it happens then five years later you repeat the cycle and you're the person who's like yes this is yeah so if you want to rate this survey there's also a survey for the whole column I think maybe three minutes for questions but we can also stick around a little bit so questions, thoughts? we can clap for you do you mind going to the mic so we can hear sorry just for the recording so I can't help but notice that there's three white females doing this discussion and of course if you don't have other people and I have to do it like this but you do have more like diverse people in your team I saw why are they not here it's an awesome question partly because of just practical reasons like we certainly invited them and it's expensive to get to Europe and they're all from the US so that's part of it part of it is that I think one of our guiding philosophies has been that racism is largely a white people problem and so rather than asking people of color to do the work for us we have attempted to elevate voices I would love to see more people of color on the organizing team and active in Drupal and everywhere like in general but I think specifically for Amsterdam it's largely funding which is totally structural in the sense that it's very easy for me to get a job because I'm a white person and it's easy for me to get a job that pays me to come here right like it's relatively speaking pretty easy that would be I don't know anything to add cause I was thinking actually maybe I hope I'm not defending anyone here if a white male would be doing this talk with you it might get the message across even stronger because they are literally from the group that you are addressing right now so they are basically saying we I stand for this as a person that is part of the problem so they're basically validating your message if you could say that that's why there are a few men from your group here right yeah so that's why I was thinking they are here well Alex is a little shy and that's fine so we respect everyone in our group not everyone on the leadership team likes to speak and that's fine and we have given this talk with other men on the team and again not everyone came to this conference not everyone's company wanted to send them to this conference and that's totally fine so this is just how it shook out this time this is the first time at a Drupal con that it's ever been all women well Drupal Europe I guess a Drupal Europe does tend to be all women which is interesting I did recently read an article where a woman analyzed her twitter like activity where people liked or retweeted her stuff she's a technical woman but noticed that the only thing that ever got traction was diversity tweets and she ran a bunch of analysis on a wide variety of twitter accounts and basically concluded that men are listened to about tech and minerals to go to university which just found kind of depressing and interesting hi thank you so much for doing this talk thank you so much for all the work that you do in the channel and for the community it's amazing and so important um sorry my name's Megan something I am frustrated about is that this room is not packed and um I had tried to do an initiative that didn't gain much traction as part of an apprenticeship type of group and the feedback was that kept kind of happening was oh we care about diversity but then like no one came or like companies didn't sign up to sponsor people and so when I look around this room I see important people doing the work and showing up but then I don't see as many people who have influence to make change it's really frustrating and I'm not going to take a picture of the room but I want to be like where the F are you like why aren't you here if you care so much about diversity can you please show up and so I wanted to ask what should we start calling people out directly like what is the next step for making the DD&I group sustainable for more years to come I think calling people in is a little more helpful like in terms of so the way that we got Dries to do the keynote last year was by reaching out and being like hey we'd love to work with you we want to help and yeah we want to help you and help talk to you about diversity and we wondered if you had any thoughts about what you were going to talk about in the Dries note and that evolved and originally it was supposed to be this little short piece of it and it wound up being sort of the focus of the Dries note and be like how many tags can I fit in one tweet because I'm exactly that kind of person and I'm exactly that petty I think that it sort of a morphize with honey situation where trying to call people in and giving them something actionable where it's like hey we'd love to do X can we get your help with doing A, B and C and it feels like when people just show up to a session it would be just that simple but maybe that doesn't feel beneficial or actionable enough and I feel like your initiative was actionable enough too but maybe just trying to get very specifically approaching people and asking them to do something and trying to think of it as some benefit to them do you guys have other ideas? I want to say one thing we're over time if you've got to go but also we're looking for European community members we have very few and it's extremely difficult for us in the US to understand the ground level what's going on here so I'm going to the channel we have a special European channel too so just wanted to say that briefly about this question I feel like this is also I was really frustrated this morning with we have all these tracks that are proposed now for a triple nine or beyond nine that are going to rely on like you cannot serve the global population well without having a diverse community and yet there's like zero infrastructure it's like oh the DA is going to fix it and I like the DA but like come on that's like we all have to be involved and your apprenticeship initiative like could absolutely be a thing like JSONIDI and why is it not? that's all just angry do you want to go? I was just going to say something in response to related to the thing you said about we need European members I was having one of those ad hoc conversations with them we're of the community that I've known a long time earlier today and this person was like oh my gosh well you know people in Europe they're just terrified of saying the wrong thing we want to help support diversity and inclusion but we're afraid we're going to say the wrong thing and it's going to ruin our careers I'm like okay I mean yes listening is good start just maybe just listening rather than saying anything I'm going to kind of go around and around and around about that but I think that I don't know is there is there a way that we can like work with like the event organizing teams here these like I don't know this person was actually an American dude wasn't actually someone from the European community but was representative saying all the Europeans are afraid of being alive because they're all going to swarm and like okay anyway it was an interesting but it was actually a fear you know a lot of people in the European community was like they have good intentions but they're afraid they're afraid or unable to take the next step so I like that idea find a way to make it work we should definitely stop because there's a whole thing going on thank you all sorry we ran out of time