 So this presentation is really talking about how transforming bigger organizations like Philips, the culture into the agile way of working. So that's what the topic is. There was another speaker at this time, and there was some changes. The app got updated. Some people didn't see it. So just to make sure that all of you are aware where you're sitting and for what you're sitting. May I also request that since it's a very small group, it'll be good if you guys can come towards the front. So we have a small community that then I can interact with. My name is Raj Karunakaran. My last name is always difficult for a lot of people who are not used to South Indian names. So you can call me Raj. I'm the HR manager at Philips, and you must be wondering that how come an HR person is in an agile conference. I'm equally surprised not because why I'm here, but I expected more HR guys to be here. Because when you talk about agile, you can't think of just changing the way of working. There's a lot more involved. And a bigger part is changing the organizational culture. You change the org structures. You need to change the processes to align yourself to agile way of working. And the HR has to be in the core center of it. So if in your organizations, your HR guys are not thinking about it, this is your chance to go back to them and tell them that, hey, you guys are not there. You have to be here. So what I'm going to talk to you is today is in Philips what we have been doing. If it's a legacy organization, I hope all of you have heard about Philips and how we are making an old legacy. People think that it's a very bureaucratic, traditional organization and changing it into agile. And what is my role here? We have formed a central group where HR is a core part of it and I lead the HR practice for that. And I am at this point working on changing our entire R&D organization, which is close to 6,000 people and employees organization spread across different parts of the world and helping these organizations adapt agile practices from an HR point of view. So a little bit more about Philips. Philips is a legacy organization has been in existence since 1890, much before many of you or your parents or grandparents were born. And we are 113,000 plus employees worldwide and we are very diversified. So when you think of Philips, people get very different images starting from radios that many of you would have heard when you were young. Over the years, we have transformed ourselves and now we are, as we speak, we are also going through a transformation and our focus is now completely health tech. So many businesses that we had like televisions, audio, lighting, it's all in, spanning into different organizations and our core focus is health tech. And health tech is a space where we are market leaders and by, it's also going through a lot of changes and it's becoming more digital. It's no more just selling a product or a component. So I'm just sharing with you the background on why the need for the organization to transform and if you have to survive in such an environment where it's changing every day, there is no other option but to move to agile. So we moved our journey started around three years back when we started transforming ourselves into digital organization and the agile journey started from there. What I'd like to cover today and present to you is our story. So something where what we did in terms of driving a culture which is not driven by extrinsic motivation by more by intrinsic motivation and how did we create that intrinsic motivation in the organization? So that's one. The other is how can we make, put the team in the driving seat? How can we break the organizational structure of hierarchies and how do we re-look at and change the supervisor or the traditional manager's roles? And how do we drive innovation in the entire process? So these are some of the things which I would like to share and also some bit on people practices where we are reinventing ourselves. So let me also just put a caveat here that we are in the process of transformation. So our story is not complete. And I'll definitely like to hear from you. Yesterday I was sitting with a lady, I believe, from Mastik and she said that they have moved away from completely performance rating scales. Amazing story. And those are the stories if you have it, it'll benefit everybody in the room if you also bring in it. So let's make it also an exercise of a lot of sharing. Okay, so what motivates employees in the organization? So we heard a lot about it. There were a lot of speakers yesterday. We spoke this morning. Daniel Pink is somebody who has referred so many times and people get motivated by purpose. And people work in certain organizations for multiple reasons, right? So what do that organizations stand for? It's a big reason why organizations work for. What Phillips work for and what all our employees recognize that we are in a healthcare space where we are into saving lives, right? And our core purpose, the way we have defined it is touching people's life, right? In fact, we have a vision statement which talks about touching people's life. So we want to touch or improve three billion lives by 2025, so which is a big, big statement. So by 2025, it will be roughly around one in every two humans on this planet, right? But the focus is how can we improve people's lives? So if it's healthcare, then how do we save lives and if it's personal care, then how do we improve their lives, right? So that's what the mission statement is. And how do you drive this? We have a culture where we have a lot of leadership stories, okay? And over the last three or four years in the transformation journey, we have had enough instances where the leader would come stand and share their personal story, okay? And the story would be something like this. You know, I had once a business group leader who came and stood in front of the entire team and said that, you know, guys, why I am with Philip? There is a story behind that. And she was, she's been with Phillips for like some 20 plus years and a very hardcore sales driven number driven person always known for strong performance, right? And a tough lady to work with. And she said that, you know, once I was on this flight and a small kid walked to her and said, you know, thanks for saving my mother's life, okay? So it so happened that we were doing some kind of diagnostic event where people could detect the initial stage of breast cancer. And you know, the mother came to know and she got treated and this child came and said that. So that was a very strong personal story and that motivated her of what can we do more in saving lives, right? And where the team members come and share their personal story, okay? So sometimes, you know, we had one young girl said, she lost her mother at very young age. She wanted to be a doctor because of that and she could never get admission in a medical college and the closest she could come was, you know, work on healthcare products. So now these are purposes which is shared. These are stories which are shared. The other kind of stories that get shared is, you know, our field engineers come and talk about, you know, how the product and the solutions are helping people, okay? And this really is a big intrinsic motivation, okay? So even in your organization, I'm sure there's something which is much bigger than the sales numbers or those statistics and creating such personal stories can build a very strong culture in the organization. The team chartering is the another piece of, you know, the visioning exercise of where the teams come together and they said what their personal vision is and what the team visions are and these are drawings, these are statements which is put across, okay? So another element of how you can bring the, build a team vision. How team takes ownership of the performance, right? So this is another process that we introduced two years back and it seems to work really well for us is, so if we look at the entire organizational construct, many a times the organizational construct is that things are driven from top down, right? You need a manager, a strong leader to tell people what is to be done. Agile environment, that's precisely what we are trying to break it. What we want is self-managed teams and the teams who can take full responsibility of who they are and what is that they want to achieve, okay? So any process which helps the team take, you know, be more empowered and drive towards that is, you know, what is required. So sharing with you two examples of, you know, so one is we call it Accelerate Survey and this is a survey which is done every quarter where the team gets, gives the input and the team gets the report. Very easy to use, but it's a very quick pulse check on how the team members feel around the culture, around the work, around, you know, their own satisfaction around the team. Now this is not driven by the manager, it's driven by the team, okay? And the team gets the input. The other piece is the team performance dialogue and this is the process where the team comes together without any supervisor or a facilitator and the way it is run is it's kind of gamified. So there are set of playing cards with certain questions saying, you know, so what is the thing that we are proud of in the last quarter that we did? What are things which, you know, we are not proud of? Something which kept us awake the entire night, something which is not really working well in our team and it kind of creates a discussion in the team where, and at the end it's like, you know, what is one action as a team that we all can commit to, okay? And this is a process where the team takes the ownership of what shift in the culture or any actions that they wanna take and they work on that, the team takes the ownership, they create plans and then again the next quarter they come and review it, okay? So this is another piece which is set up where the team takes the complete ownership of how driving the culture in the team is. They're also team competencies and behaviors which have been defined and this is, you know, many times these are like big posters or carpets, you know, empty room where people stand and they reflect on each of these competencies and these are some of the competencies that we also ask the team members to make each other accountable for. So when they're giving feedback, for instance, they have a framework in mind that on what they're giving feedback, right? Again, this is not something which is driven top down, this is something which is at a team level. So there is the tools, they are communications but at the end, you know, so one of the things when we launched this, we had events where the team came and presented their interpretation about it. There was also a competition around, okay, you know, can you create a selfie or a picture which symbolizes some of this? So this kind of creates the excitement around what we are talking about, okay? And there's a lot of talk on, you know, some of these competencies whether it exists, it doesn't exist in the team. Within the team, if the team has to take ownership and this is something which we learned, you know, very early stage and I'm sure many of the people here would have seen it in their organization is when you remove the supervisor and supervisor in the sense, the person who is like, you know, has a reporting line and defines and dictates things or, you know, wants to control things. A lot of team issues, there's nobody to resolve that and in a team environment, you want the team to resolve team issues. And we wanted to create a culture of where the team can give feedback to each other and it was a very difficult task for us, right? The two things that we did and one is called a feedback souk, a very simple process where, you know, the team defines the frequencies whether they want to do it once in six months or, you know, it's part of the adapt and introspect and adapt process where the team comes together and they form a circle or two circles, they face each other and in just a minute, they give a feedback like, okay, so what made you great in this last program increment is this or what stopped your greatness from achieving big results in the last program increment is this, okay? And this is fun, right? And they do this, there's no questions asked, there's no clarification, the person just gives a feedback and the other person has a choice to take it or not to take it, but, you know, doesn't say anything, okay? And everybody takes a turn, okay? So in a minute, both side, they share the feedback, then they go to the next person, they share a feedback and the moment they cover at least 10 people, there's a pattern which is emerging, they know that how the team members are looking at them, how they view that person's contribution, okay? And this people have liked so much more than a 360 degree appraisal or, you know, somebody writing things and all of that. And what people have said is, you know, it's amazing to see some of these patterns emerging, some of things which they were not even aware of, okay? And created a culture where now people are so comfortable in a very positive way to give a feedback, okay? And why it's positive because you're seeing that the person is already great, you know, what made you great or you're great but something is stopping your greatness. So there is no negativity in the process, right? The other piece which we introduced where the team takes the ownership of giving feedback to each other is called courageous conversation. And in this process, if there is issues between two team members, you know, somebody is pushing really hard, the other person doesn't like it, we had a lot of, you know, sessions where we've, you know, now kind of trained our people to use a flow of conversation which is not very intimidating in any way, but they're able to express that, you know, what their own value systems are and what is it that they're not liking about somebody's behavior. So it's a process where people can resolve their own conflicts before it's blown up and gets into a crisis situation where the team kind of starts breaking down, okay? So that's another tool which is available now with the team members to resolve these issues. Why these tools are important? Because if you just leave it, you know, in a normal situation, you want the managers to intervene and try to solve this and we create a system where the employees will always walk up to the manager, right? The moment you give this tools to the employees, you know, they can resolve those issues, right? You don't need a third person to resolve that. Yes, sure. You know, how to do that. And you're right, you know, we went through a phase of change management where people didn't know how to deal with the situations. Okay, so they were going to the managers and I'll talk about the role of the manager here. It took some time for us to, you know, inculcate that where the managers would push back, saying, hey, you guys need to go and resolve this. Okay, or the process of where the team comes together and ideates and come up with the idea and set up the team goals. Okay, but, you know, that's how, you know, the scrum teams work. So it fitted really well with, you know, many of the ceremonies that happens within a scrum team. The other part is, you know, as I said in the beginning, is the, yeah, sure. Yeah, please, please, let's, yeah. So we, you know, so this reason we kept it like these two points. Okay, so let's say there is the individual who is, you know, very, you know, doesn't work in a team environment. He's always kept, keeps himself alone. Then that feedback will emerge, right? So the, it's not just from one person, but you know, the over a period the team will feed. They're not going to hide it from that person. Once the team comes, then it's, and that's where the person picks it as an action. And I'll talk about that when we come to the performance management piece on how we do that. The person works with the coach and seeing that, hey, this is what my team tells me. You know, this is one action that I'm committing to the team. Okay, so when we do this, this process, the way we end it is each individual then comes out and tells the team that, you know, thank you for the feedback. And this is one insight I got from this exercise today. Okay, and this is my commitment, something that I'm going to work on. Okay, so the individual volunteers and sees that this is what I heard from everybody telling me, you know, this is one good thing I heard and this is one area of which I heard I need to work on. And I'm making a commitment. So, you know, so once you make a commitment to the team, the team is again going to give you a feedback. It's very transparent, right? And if there's certain feedback where it requires a little more diving into and trying to do, find some facts, the person has to do that. Yeah, sure. And if you're not heard that question, you know, so what she's saying is not everybody would be comfortable with a process like this, right? So there's going to be inhibitions where apprehensions around some of these feedbacks, right? Yeah, so they are moments where, and we have examples where, you know, somebody felt very miserable at the end of it, okay? Because the feedbacks were very strong, though it's a very positive way of putting it across, but you know, it's a straight message coming from the team. And sometimes they leave the team and which is nothing, you know, bad about it, because if there is a person who is a misfit in the team and the team has decided that this person is not fitting in the culture, right? There is enough help and support which is there, but over the period, let's say, you know, over three cycles of feedback, the person is getting the same feedback, hey, you know, you're not really helping and you leave work in the middle of the process and walk away. It just creates that environment for the person to just leave the team and go. Give me one example. Yeah. So we consciously try to keep ourselves out of it, okay? And I'll tell you the reason. So one is, you know, at a very high philosophical level, just approaching saying that we are dealing with adults. We want them to go through this process of crisis and despair and come out of it and manage that. What we do is provide them tools and techniques, okay? So, oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So, you know, so, I mean, you have your coaches available. You have, you know, there's a personal coach available with each individual, okay? And they work with the coach and I'll tell you the coaching relationship where, you know, some of these things, then there's a sounding board which is there, right? It's more about giving tools and techniques for people to resolve conflicts within themselves. Yes. So, at least, yeah, so, yeah, so at least, you know, at least, I mean, I don't have a longevity of saying, you know, but at least last two years is long enough period for us to say that the postives have been more than, you know, any of the, the change management is a process which we need to deal with. But otherwise, we have not got into any major issues. You know, it's more positives which really came up, right? Okay, so the, and, you know, as I started saying, you know, so any process that we introduced, you know, the first question we asked is that, are we breaking the organizational hierarchy? Okay, are we, you know, removing the role of the typical manager who gets into, you know, giving directions, okay? And one of the things, you know, I mean, if you look at it, this is a representation of a traditional org structure, and this is the way most of the agile teams are structured where they're more cross connected, there's no levels of hierarchy. This also comes the way people look at roles and they build their aspirations and how they wanna grow in the organization, right? So, typically you have your corporate ladders like this and career planning and all those exercise happens in this process. And what we wanted to do was break that because that's also a way people look at different levels and then start looking at roles that has more authority, right? So what we did was, we wanted to create equality in terms of the roles, equality in the sense that, you know, you're not looking at a higher level to have more authority, but you know that at your own level you have certain authority which is there, so it's not like, you know, you grow if you grow laterally, but you grow in different directions based on your personal aspirations, okay, your personal interests. Obviously, the skills that you gain have criticality and a value attached to it, and you know, that's how you differentiate based on a grade or a compensation piece. But you know, the aim was to build a culture where people can actually take, you know, moments across and it's also seen as a career growth, okay? And more and more now we talk about career ladders and not career ladders. It's not like, you know, someone says I'm an engineer and I want to become a project lead and a project manager and a delivery manager and just looks at only that one track. It could be any different tracks and you know that, you know, you are independent person who is really contributing and your value. So to give you an example, and this is for all agile teams, so, you know, for each of the roles we created, you know, came up with documents to help them which says what are the possible career options that one can take, okay? What competencies you need to build and then look at your own aspiration if you like, you know, to be someone closer to the customer and get those inputs and you want to be a product owner, then this is how you can grow that and then your career development discussions happens around that. So we remove the levels and, you know, the lateral growth kind of structure completely, okay? Serve to purpose, it fits very well with the way the agile thing works. The other thing is also the notion of, you know, this hierarchy, we want to just break that, okay? Just one example of how you can, you know, take up any process and then relook at that and say how we can fit it into agile way of working. This is an example for a Scrum Master. So there's a similar documents for, yeah. So it could be agile developers. So this is one example for Scrum Master. So if I'm a Scrum Master, I can see what are the possible career movements for me. If I'm a developer, there is a similar document. So I just wanted to, you know, show one example here. So what is happening to our managers, okay? So what we have done is we have removed the project managers and we have made them competency managers and they manage a group of people with the similar competencies. Now they don't manage the entire Scrum thing. They manage a group of people with a similar competencies. We call them competency managers. We call them cluster managers. And their role is to develop those competencies, okay? So build competencies amongst people who are playing that role and they also are trained to be performance coaches, okay? So every employee has that coach assigned to them and there's a coaching session which happens every month. It could be bi-weekly. It could be a minimum of at least once in a month. They sit, they talk about, you know, it could be within the work, immediate work that they're doing. It's also, you know, looking at their own career development. And the coachee brings all this feedback, you know, what they got in the feedback soup. They got from dashboards within the team, how the team is performing and how they can build in their own effectiveness. So the coach here is not taking the ownership of driving the performance, but make sure that the ownership is still with the employee. But the coach here is the sounding board, okay? So the coach here is the person who is now helping, you know? So there is, again, coaching and a coach, coach and a coachee is a very equal relationship. It's not like a mentoring or a subject matter expert here. And in fact, a coach could be somebody who's completely outside the domain as well. So the coachee, by using various facts, statistics, 360 degree reports, dashboards, what the employee brings, help the employee to retrospect and put a plan. And it's the coach's responsibility to make sure that there's a rigorous development plan, which is their actions, which is defined by every quarter. And then is there an improvement happening based on that? So, you know, the driver in this system is the coachee, the employee, okay? So the performance assessment conversation has moved to more like coaching, reflections, career development, those kind of conversations. So for every coach, we have 20 coaches, okay? So for every coach, we have 20 coaches and it helps the coach to have at least one conversation with one employee every month. Depending on the need, it could be more than one conversation. Coaching plus the competency development. So the competency could be, let's say mobility is one competency. So there is a cluster leader for the mobility group where there are 20 people from the mobility who reports into this person. It is a metrics organization, okay? No, this is not a agile, agile coach in the sense, the agile coaches is the one who helps teams adapt agile processes. No, this is more like a performance coach. This is the sounding board, this is the sounding board. They're trained to be coaches. So they've gone through a coaching certification program to be coaches. It's not an easy skill to build. Just to give you an idea on how a performance management process works, okay? So there is a coach and a coachy relationship which is established and the performance management happens between these two individuals at the individual level. We emphasize more on the team performance part. So there is, the goal setting is completely tied with your program increment. Okay, so these are shorter iterative goal setting which happens for every quarter. There's a regular one-on-one feedback. There's a development planning discussion which happens between the coach and the coachy on what training the person has to go through. Is there a mentorship which is required? Is there on-the-job experience which is required? So more in that framework. And at the end of it, then again, there is enough indicators to show that is the person's performance is improving or not improving. And over the period, if the performance improves, then it gets into the final decision on the rating and all of that. So as I said, we have still not completely matured in the process and ideally I would say that full maturity would be when we move away from the rating per se and really focus more on the development and the forward-looking part because the entire focus is improving the performance. The entire focus is not how to derive the rating. So the feedback is within the team and with the coach and the coachy. But it's far more regular. So what are we observing? I mean, we definitely know that our engagement scores have really gone up. Employees who have moved to Agile are extremely happy. We went through a cycle of change where people were not clear. Our project managers were completely unhappy. They didn't know what, some of them became scrum masters, but they didn't know whether they have gone down in their career or moved up in their career. People who became coaches had complete confusion on how to play those roles. But in general, now what we see is that the team is completely happy with the process. We continue to be driving in a lot of innovations around that. So it's no hit, in fact, it's changing for better. Also just to give you an idea that there are various processes that can get changed if you look at from an HR angle. So when you look at a talent acquisition, the big shift was that earlier the entire process was focusing on evaluating people on the skills. Can they do this job immediately? And that is important, but the focus has now moved more into can they collaborate? Can they adapt? Can they be independent? Can they work in ambiguous situation? So that has become a big focus. And what we have realized is that those things cannot be built easily. The skills can be trained. The other shift is again, breaking the organizational structure is how can we involve the team members in the decision making on whom to hire in the team? So that kind of brings in that ownership and the empowerment within the team on whom they want to add into the team. Performance management we spoke about. So it's more like a quarterly event, more feedback driven and a more feed forward driven. Learning, we have moved away from the learning calendars. We've made it like there's now a globalized tool process of Phillips University and their learning opportunities available immediately, e-learning processes. So it's like what the team wants immediately and how can we provide that rather than looking at something which you have a need and you can give it after three months or four months time. Employee engagement, it's more and just like what agile philosophy is driving it on extrinsic one. We want, we end the process, I would say that moving away from motivating people, giving performance ratings or using merit increases as a tool and that is our aim. And create a culture where there's more empowerment that they're driven by the projects that they are getting into to drive the motivation. Career paths, job designs is completely changed. So we have moved away from traditional lateral movements and those career paths and it's more career lattice which is there right now. And the decision making is completely within the team level. If you have to look at a shift in organizational culture and this is a model which it resonated well. And if you have to plot Phillips on this structure, so the two aspects or two axis of a culture is, one is where you want to have a lot of control within the organization, the other one is the flexibility part and the one is internal focused and the other is external focused. So Phillips as an organization years back was probably here. There was a lot of flexibility but it was very internal focus, very shy kind of an organization. The feeling of the Dutch organization, very internal focus, that kind of a culture. Over the years we moved to continue to be very internal focus but built a lot of systems, processes, controls within the organization. Over the last decade, the shift happened here where we started becoming more aggressive in the marketplace but we didn't move away from our control. And at this point, the focus is how we create a dynamic entrepreneurial, a creative workplace where the focus is completely on creating customer value and with a lot of flexibility. And I like this model because it's easy for us then to relook at our own organizations and see where do we stand in this four quadrants. And then look at what interventions to build around that. So yeah, so that was a little overview on some of the things that we have been doing. So I can take a few questions. I think we have five minutes for questions, yeah, sure. So at this point in time, we have looked at a software part primarily, software in the systems part, which is the R&D part of it. So which constitutes around 6,000 employees right now. So we started from there. We have not looked beyond like sales marketing and all of that at this point. Yes, so they are in different stages. So some are going to move, some have already moved. So we are deploying in a face manner, not entirely yet. Overall size of Philips is in terms of number of employees, more than 100,000 employees, 113,000 employees. So if you ask me, we didn't have big attrition. That's a risk when you go through it. And if you don't manage the entire change process. And that's where, so one of the things that helped was to bring in the HR team, the top leadership team, our centralized organizational development team into the process much early. So immediately we knew when we were moving that people had apprehensions about the new roles. How would they see their career growth in Philips? And we had to. Some of those things like defining the roles, defining the career paths was the immediate thing that we delivered. So picking up what is really stopping people from making this change, the fears that they have and providing solutions around that, that was the focus. That really helped us. So one is the way we approached the change was we didn't go for a big bank mass deployment. So we took one big business group and within that business group we started with certain business units and we put a plan on how we are going to drive. So when I said the R&D organization, not the entire R&D organization has moved right now, but the shift has been in phases, right? Sorry, there was a, yeah. So in terms of how it has benefited, I mean we track with all our productivity metrics and the time to delivery has really improved. Significantly, also now there is, and some of the things that we work on is also moving from traditional product development of big machines to putting together a hospital system and all of that. So there's far more collaboration with the customers of co-creating some of these things. So a way of working in the business model has also changed. So it goes very well with that model. So it's not complete. So we started this journey around two years back. So it's in the process. In some of the teams it's been deployed like more than a year, they have been completely functioning in this format. Yeah, sure. Okay, so no questions coming from this side. Okay, how is the compensation handled? Honestly, that is a piece of work which I am right now involved in. And one of the purpose of coming to this conference was how can I pick ideas on, we heard yesterday in the keynote speech also that and Phillips is no different. We moved away from the bell curve and we thought that it's revolutionary. I would say the revolutionary thing would be the moment we move away from ratings, right? Because there's so much of culturally, people just look at ratings and it says, hey, if I have a higher rating, I get a higher increment. And the thought that we have in our mind is, pay based on the value of the role. So if there's a role which is there and it's very scientifically, you can evaluate that. That what is the market value of that role and based on the skills and the critical and you can bring in the performance factor but you can keep it to a 10 to 15% kind of a variation around that because there are enough indicators on how the individual is performing within the team. If at all we want to build that differentiation within a team on how we position people's salary but focus more on how can we have team bonuses. So then that's a very direct indicator of how the team is achieved and they see a correlation with the compensation. Rest of the time it's all bell curve and one year you are in the top and one year you're not. Some people get just branded for potential and not for performance. I don't know how I'm doing on time. Probably one last question I can take. No, I don't have. At this point we have not reached that stage. So I didn't get the question. Yeah, so the part that we have taken is where performance rating or a performance evaluation is more crowd sourced than our individual deciding what the rating is. So that's the approach that we are taking. So it's just breaking, making it more bottom sub rather than a top down. So at this point we are downplaying the entire rating piece and the performance appraisal piece completely. Yeah, so for that it's not the HR processes but it's the team targets and the team dashboards which is available, right? So the customer value that the team creates is a dashboard which is there already as part of a scrum team process, right? So there are various metrics. So we didn't want to introduce additional metrics around it. Right, so performance is clearly driven on the value that they're creating. That's the entire thing to, see our vision is to break that. We don't have a solution right now. But I believe there has been like yesterday the speaker at the end who gave the speech, they have managed to come up with a process where they're completely broken up. So there are examples there but all I can say is that it can be broken. Yeah, so let me just qualify it saying that we have a talent management process which is very central. So we know people, what the potentials are. We look at people's aspirations, people go and fill their internal resume talking about what their aspirations are but we evaluate based on how they're developing themselves. So the potential part is completely centralized and managed. So we have a visibility of who the people are. There is no ranking. So there's a difference between a ranking from a performance point of view and a ranking from a potential point of view. You have potential, everybody has a potential but for certain roles these are certain people for potential. So that's a way of looking at it. So there are two things. So let me just break this. You have to differentiate based on performance. It's not a socialistic approach. So it's differentiating based on the performance but based on the skill and the value that that person brings in. The emphasis here is more around driving a collaborative team focused system rather than creating individual stars. Within the team, there is a differentiation but currently the process, the traditional system that works is really focusing on the individuals and not really looking at how the team is working. So that's where creating the balance is important. At the end of it, the team did they perform. There's a part of money which is defined based on the team performance and within the team, there's some people who are much ahead and some behind. So there's a differentiation you bring in, not more than that. I've been told that I've run over time but I'm available during the lunchtime so we can take the conversations outside. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you.