 Make sure you click the link to subscribe to my YouTube channel and also click the notifications button to be notified for when my next podcast goes live You can also follow me on my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest is. I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Thank you Boom we're on and today's guest. We've got Neil Woods nails a form under cover copper for 14 years First of all, I just want to thank you for coming on the show. No problem I think this is the first time I've sat across from a copper. I'm the one. It's asking the questions today. So it's refreshing So you've released two books you went undercover some ducks topics you went worked on We'll go right back to the start where you grew up and how you get involved in life you were involved in Yeah, well, I grew up in I suppose you could call it a sleepy middle-class town called Buxton in the peak district and But I didn't really realize at the time how sheltered it was, but I Made a bit of a daft mistake. I went to university by mistake and why I thought that I would enjoy business studies I've no idea, but I quickly found out it wasn't for me and I dropped out So I went home. I was going to go backpacking around Europe. A couple of my friends had done that it sounded exciting But then I saw an advertisement in the local newspaper for the police And I thought that sound exciting too, but I couldn't make my mind up. So I flipped a coin It came up heads and that's why I applied For the police. So I suppose you could say I was literally flippant about it sort of flippin other coins basically Put your life in that path. Yeah, sometimes that's the best way to do things Just flip the coin and roll with it. So when you first joined the police How long did it take before you went undercover? Well, it's about four years, but I mean, I was really crap as a uniform cop. I was terrible You know, I couldn't deal with conflict I couldn't work out why people still wanted to keep punching me when I was trying to calm them down Um, I just you know, I just didn't realize how sheltered I'd been Did you see a lot of violence towards yourself at the start has been on the beat? Yeah, I mean, you know uniform police have to put up with violence all the all the time. Um But it was just it was just a bit of a culture shock to me So I almost lost my job a few times to be honest, but I clung on there, but and after four years There was the mother of all moral panics about about drugs And the reason for that is that the tabloid newspapers the media were constantly Publishing stories about crack cocaine in America for years before we actually had any So the moment it hit the streets in the uk The general public were already scared so the home office Reactive overreacted and invested huge amounts of money in drugs policing That meant I could get an attachment to the drug squad Now the drug squad hated having us rookies around they really did but one of them Sort of looked at me one day and said Do you fancy having to go out buying some crack? And I mean that wasn't a question I was expecting as you do Yeah, as you do. Yeah Um, and I says well, yeah, I'm going for anything Um, and so it gave me 20 quid went to this terrorist house knocked on this door And this huge guy came to the door and uh quite quickly agreed to sell me some crack And he was quite nice actually He said he said, you know, you take care don't get yourself arrested And so I came back to the drug squad there holding my little stone of crack. I've got it look but um, but that day then defined The next 14 years of my life because I was young and I was quite calm when I was doing that kind of work um, so one day turned into several weeks doing it then several months because It was a new tactic. It hadn't been done in Britain before So but you know people got to prison They talked to other people and suddenly they know they know that there's there's a new thing out there And there are cops pretending to be Drug users so it got more and more difficult and so I couldn't go to any inner city area Without spending six months there because I would have to win people's trust, you know build a legend And work my way up to get the introductions. Why did the drug squad not like the rookies? Because they were a professional unit. They were seasoned detectives They knew what they were doing with surveillance They had a sort of slick way of running and having these having these rookies Just sort of given to them, you know to learn a few things We were a bit of a pain in the ass to them really getting under foot. Why do you think the picture to go forward and Pretend to be a drug user Did you have a certain look or body shape or we're just young and naive that you'd agree to do anything? Yeah, possibly that yeah Well, I mean I was a young skinny lad and I and I looked actually a lot younger than than I was I was only 23, but I must have looked about 19 Um So it was just a choice just a chance sort of suggestion, you know, because it it really was a new tactic It hadn't been done before I thought that that King Dostov had been done For many many years. Well higher end undercover work had been done Where uh informants would introduce a high a high end, you know someone to further up the ladder To do a big deal or something like that and they might spend two years doing it But actually Starting at the ground level and working your way up that hadn't happened in the UK So how deep did you have to go then see when you have when you go undercover? Do you get a free pass to basically do anything like take drugs? sleep with people or fight do you get the past just to get the in with the High the profile to go deep and build the trust because if you're say you're undercover and somebody had slight suspicion Is there at a party somebody puts it about a coke or ecstasy and a few kind of go No, I don't want that with that Bring suspicion to the The criminals basically mind and go he's fucking dodgy. Well, I mean it could do but it's it's it's about managing it Thankfully, I never had to take any heroin never had to take any crack crack wouldn't have worried me particularly But I never had to Um, I did have to take I'm vitamin once but that's because I made a really stupid mistake Um, I I made myself out to be a connoisseur of amphetamines and there's so this this Gangster was involved in car thefts and antique burglaries and stuff and one day he said are you got present for you? And held up this little see-through bag With this toxic looking pink goo in it. You could smell it even through the bag It smelled like the the urine from a glue sniffing cat. It was smell disgusting. It really did But the thing is I went I was momentarily wary and he could see that glimpse of of sort of um weariness And so I knew because I'd seen him notice that I knew I had to take some I'd be in trouble if I didn't So there's been there's moments like that. What was that? It was it was amphetamine, but it was based on Phetamine and at the time the average purity of speed was five percent. This was 40 percent So I stuck my little finger in add a little bit Um, and it says now you'll need more than that with your tolerance I think okay, so I've got a load more. I hit my stomach and that warm feeling And you know within 20 minutes I was out of it Absolutely, I mean I mean really out of it and it was the most horrible angsty feeling I mean, I knew enough about amphetamine. You know, you need to take quite a lot to overdose So I wasn't particularly worried but but I didn't sleep really for three Three nights. So how does that mind you my house has ever been so tired. Yeah How does that work then if you're going to take some speed, you know, you're going to be tracking balls Do you speak to people at the office or how do you judge that? Do you go to the hospital? So what kind of procedure do you have to deal with when you take it? Well, I have a I have a cover person, you know, someone supposedly looking after my welfare He just got me driven home. I assured him I didn't need to go to the hospital Um, I know you take you need to take a lot of amphetamine to overdose So I wasn't overly worried But I got home and I'm you know, I was being driven home and on the way home I'm thinking I've got eight cans of stellar in the fridge. That'll sort me out. That'll calm me down Now finish the eighth one and I felt no different at all So he says that you wouldn't be scared to take heroin. Yeah, you would be scared to take heroin but not crack. Why is that? Um Well, I mean heroin I wouldn't know um It's it's too easy to overdose with heroin, you know, and I wouldn't have been the first time, you know, you take tiny amounts the first time Um, so just to find a really scary drug but crack. I wouldn't find as scary. It's quite hard to overdose on it So obviously when you started to find your feet and really go into the uncharted waters What was your first big job then as an undercover copper to to get information and Get a conviction. Oh god the first one Oh, well, I mean there were so many early on um I suppose the first really the first huge one the really six month one was in was in Leicester And um, it primarily went into this area of Leicester called high fields uh, which Is a sort of typical sort of post industrial in the city terraced housing area, you know, there's lots there's lots of them similar around around the UK and um I mean if it involved six months worth of buying drugs from various different people I mean there was a few scary moments with that one. There was one in particular where two rival gangs um got their heads together and realized I'd been buying off all of them And you know, it's not necessarily normal for someone to sample every single dealer's products when you you know, you could have a a relationship with someone who could meet you every day, you know, so So they got suspicious and and one time they they They waited for myself and lined up along this wall and when I saw them I realized that two rival gangs were together. I was in some serious trouble here Thankfully, I was with a fellow undercover cop who were A girl who managed to diffuse it and um Started pulling me away saying leave it leave it as if I was getting to get aggressive with them. Um It was a sort of just a trick that she thought about the time really for the work. It did work. It did. Um, and also I didn't Show out. I didn't um because they had doubts, but they weren't convinced And as long as you stay in in character and as long as you don't ever admit it That's the sort of golden rule. So Is there's a bit of acting community play also or is it more Just like roleplay as well How much When you in count a character, how much do you need to change completely? Does it affect you also when you finish work? Well, we didn't have training for a long time Uh when and I helped design some of the original training But we had some level one some long term undercover cops teachers And they said that it's important. You're not an actor and don't try and be an actor You have to play a different version of yourself Because if you're an actor you're playing a role on a stage or a part in a film or something And you can maintain that role But if you're undercover you could be amongst people for you know 20 hours you could be living in a community with them So if you try and act it's you can soon be seen through But because you're living that thin veil difference you're being a different version of yourself. Yeah, you you can find yourself um Taking it home. Um, but I think I always managed to Separate work and and home life and I still managed to get home and take my kids swimming on a Sunday morning a lot of the time So Well, you grew up and then obviously getting moved around to go undercover Did you ever notice anybody that you knew or did you ever become suspect that oh, I know him? He's a copper that did you have to go further afield? So you wouldn't be recognized. Oh, yeah traveled all over the country. I didn't go anywhere near where I lived So I worked as far south as Brighton as far north as leads and lots of places in between Is there anybody who you became really close with that you maybe got a conviction with and you you felt Maybe sorry for Yeah, there's there's lots of them to be honest. There's a guy called cammy in in Nottingham and When I got there in Nottingham. I was there to infiltrate a gang called the book Sorry the gang a gang called the best wood cartel run by a gangster called calling gun and It took me I had to pick on somebody to manipulate and What you do is another cover carp is actually to pick on the most vulnerable people For one, they're the most easy to manipulate but also Vulnerable people tend to be using more drugs So they have more contacts. They know everybody So this particular guy He was he was perfect for my purposes because he was on bail for dealing heroin And he was connected to the exact gang that I needed to get close to And actually I knew because he was on bail I knew that his life was going to be made worse by me meeting him I knew that and this I found really difficult because I had to justify what I was doing, you know, because I was struggled with the ethics of it Because I knew he was going to be at risk Because if he's the mupper who's introduced the undercover cop several months later, he's it he's at risk of getting murdered and At least a beating but also his life is going to be made worse by meeting me because he's on bail he could get to jail And he's someone who's a problematic heroin user and needs help But then what I did is I justified that to myself because I took the view at the time That the end justified the means You know at the end of the operation, I'm going to put loads of gangsters in prison So to me that made it justified it So with cammy I got to know him I got in presence Went shoplifting with him Which is great fun, by the way It is if you if you know you've got to get out of jail free car It's such fun, especially if you're working with somebody If you're working with someone else and you take it in turns to be luck out, it's great fun Um, so that pure bastard's out with you shoplifting thinking he's a great shoplifter not getting touched Not realizing that you've got the free pass Oh, well, I still would have got arrested. You know if I'd got caught It's just later on down the line it would have got slashed out of court He would see would have still got done actually Was he with he would have done yeah, yeah, probably Fucking ill so I would give him presence and I really want him over and And like I did with most people who were struggling with drugs. I would take the time to listen to them you know because I was You have to show that empathy for people to manipulate them. I suppose I called it weaponizing empathy But in that process I did really start to understand people because when I went when I was 19 I went into the police. I saw someone struggling with drugs I just thought other stupid they've made a mistake and they haven't got the willpower to get out of it I was very judgmental. Yeah, but then I got to know these people and um And cammy was a he was a nice bloke, you know, but he'd grown up with a um in a with a traumatic childhood Which is the case with if sink every single Problematic heroin user I've met and most problematic drug users. They're dealing with trauma or physical abuse. That's what they're dealing with I believe that myself and Obviously when you look at it No matter where you're from I believe conditioning becomes a big part of it if you're grown around um Crime drink drugs violence. It becomes you and always say it you become it becomes normal So again the the drug abuse it is to numb some sort of pain and feeling anybody who's Overdrinking overeating Taking drugs you're hiding from something you can't face reality and obviously the excuses come in But it becomes at a deeper level and understand that you are doing a job But people do struggle and I believe everybody has goodness in them. Everybody has and certain circumstances can trigger it I just made a documentary there in Costa Rica with a plant-based drug called ayahuasca and they call it the The split the first bit of trauma you have in your life It's like the soul splits and that's when we wrap ourselves from like an onion We we use the drink the drugs that even the violence is a shield to try and fulfill A something that's a miss So I totally agree with that the drugs is to numb the pain and it's sad because The homeless stuff that we do in Glasgow when you speak to people you understand that somebody's son somebody's daughter Mom dad friend and it can be difficult. So obviously for you looking in as an understanding that Okay, these people are lost here and you start to instead of Taking it from the job to get the results and start showing the empathy to go. Okay. I really want to help you here Yeah, exactly. And and that I mean that was gradual But and and now I realized that criminalizing people who were trying to deal with trauma is literally the worst thing you can do To them, you know, it's it's cruelty it is but at the time I was still And wrapped up in the drug war, you know, but can we I I got friendly with him You know the done the end of the operation Everyone got arrested loads of people got arrested. Of course he did as well. He was committing a fence is on bail with me And I found out later that when he was in the police Cells he ended up on minute-to-minute watch suicide watch And the reason for that is because He thought I was his one friend in the world The one person he'd found he could talk to And for someone trying to deal with his struggles in life That was The last straw for him. Yeah, and that's what turned him serious idle So it's not even the fact that he's going to prison not even the fact that gangsters might want to kill him It's the fact that the one person who's gave trust to Is basically turned against them betrayed him. Yeah, so the abandonment issues kick in overdrive Then the drug abuse where he's just wants to end that was yes, you can understand that also. So where do you draw the line then to Take a job from personal Is it just go job mentality and go I'm doing a job here and just try and block that shit out as well God, I mean that that hit me like a ton of bricks when I found that out to be honest I um, I thought I've got to give this up. Stop it instantly. You know, this is just emotionally devastating But then two weeks later, I got a phone call And um, it was a ds who said look look would see we need you for this job We need you for this next job because these gangsters are even nastier than the last lot These gangsters are using rape as punishment These they're using rape and maimings as just reputation building, you know, we've got to stop them and you're the person to do it so You know, I'm a I was a prime manipulator, but I also got manipulated, you know and um And I swallowed my upset and I went back into it and I still hadn't come to the natural conclusion I still hadn't joined all the darts if that makes sense. So even though the Other people are going through trauma. You must have went through some sort of mind fuck as well. Did you get treatment for that to try and Focus on the negative shit as well seeing people overdose and seeing people selling drugs. Did you Because it makes the world look like a bad place. I there's I believe there's still goodness everywhere Um, did you get people you could turn to and speak to and get the help that you needed? No, no, not really and by that time I'd been almost killed a few times as well through various operations. Um They had we had mandatory once a year counseling session But having had counseling More recently since I've left the police. I realized that the counseling we had then was a waste of time It was a a back covering and asked covering exercise from the police to say that they'd done it And it was it was worth it was worthless completely Do you feel as if you were getting used then a point to just going out there and Sacrifice your mental health and sacrifice your life just to get results. Absolutely. Yeah, completely. Um myself and others like like me were Just thrown thrown to the wolves really because they were confident they covered their back. I mean I I haven't I am now diagnosed legally with PTSD and I've had some treatment for that But I know I'll never be the same again and and I understand what's caused that is That knowing the harm that I've caused to others And all of those instances where you know, I've almost died and but carried on working So what's the worst thing you've ever seen while undercover? Worst, I'd be hard pressed to choose one to be honest, but there was one instance in Northampton where I was trying to sort such a new dealer to get a new line to just to to this group I'm just trying to join a few dots and I met up with this guy Who um, it just came up to me and said are you scoring are you going somewhere? And so I said well, yeah, you know, he said do you want to share a bag? So I thought right great. Yeah Another guy suddenly turned up and not seen before And he says well, I'm getting a taxi to go and get who wants to come I'm paying for the taxi Fine, and then suddenly there's four of us in this taxi The first guy that had come up to me. He was completely yellow like not even the hint of it like proper yellow simpsons yellow Probably I've looked at him thinking he's probably got hepatitis C And these yeah, so he's struggling So we go to the side of Northampton Score some heroin I'm splitting the bag with this guy because it was just part of my cover story to just manage a half But they said well, we're we're we're shooting it So we'll have to go to these toilet derelict toilets in the middle of this park So he went to this park because my story was I was going to take it away and smoke it So As I'm walking to these toilets the yellow guy says I haven't had anything for three days I've been arrested or remanded on custody I'm looking at the state of him thinking so he's got no tolerance and he's going to inject half a bag I mean, it's the most like it's the most common overdose is when you come out of police custody Your tolerance has gone down. So I was worried about that and I'm thinking how far away am I from a Phone box. I haven't got a mobile phone on me So then another guy Says right who's got filters and they've only got two filters between three of them So one guy says, oh, don't worry. I just go into my groin. I don't need a filter. I'm thinking What that's the worst place to go into your body without without a filter so I'm thinking he's gonna he's gonna have an end your emulism embolism Got the word wrong. He's gonna have a brain bleed That's the worst The other guy the yellow guy is probably going to overdose And god knows what he's doing and so they're all cooking up and um The yellow guy goes into the back of his hand And then starts really gouching and nodding and as he's nodding he starts wiping his face like this rubbing and just Half unconscious rubbing all this blood over his face. He's got blood dripping down his face His face is yellow and I'm worried he's going to die Then the other guy drops his trousers Using no filter goes straight into his groin And and injects there and then the other guy he's in his hand as well So I've got spurts of blood from one hand, which I'm stepping out the way that way spurts from another one I'm stepping out the way that way and there's loads of blood bouncing on the On the floor and you see clouds of dust where I've read blood droplet is falling And I'm expecting two of them to die And I'm just watching carefully thinking, you know, what what do I do first when they do? And I was working myself up into a bit of a panic to be honest um And all the time thinking where I've got to wrap up my heroin half half the bag that I've got Yeah, that was one of the moments really but the yellow guy I had rather dark humor with with the guy who had joined us. I said you've got a little bit of something there It was covered in blood um Then the other guy says hey mate, you're covered in blood And went, oh am I and he's like trying to rub it off and he's just going like from yellow to pink And then we walk out of those those derelict toilets and he's have you seen even you've seen people who are walking when they're on heroin Yeah, it's an odd sort of shuffle gouching shuffle, isn't it? So he's like that the other two it didn't touch the sides Thankfully the guy went into his groin lived lived to risk it another day But the things it's so upsetting to think that the three of them are really very likely to be dead now and it's the way you've got to look at it as well it's like Obviously being in the police force, but then you're using those people to take drugs To get to a bigger fish, but those people are still human beings They're like the pawns of the game that are relevant. It's clothing yourself getting used there you go What happens when your career's finished and then you're walking the streets? How has your life been? Are you still wary? Do you look over your shoulder? Are you scared that the people who you've put behind bars come looking for you because now you're very outspoken You're an activist against the drugs against all the drugs that's going about and you've got your books How is your life now that you've finished it all now you're outspoken and you're basically showing your face Oh, well, I mean I am still hyper vigilant. Uh, I didn't use I'm quite twitching I didn't use the twitch I'm always looking after my over my shoulder. I feel more comfortable if I go somewhere I can sit I can see the exit, you know that kind of thing Um, but I'm not worried about organized crime Going after me and I've put some serious gangsters in prison But I'm not worried about them coming after me You know, I used to give evidence with the with the pseudonym be smuggled into court Um smuggled out with a blanket over my head and stuff, but But now it's my real name, you know, I tell people I live in Hereford But no one's coming after me and the reason is That the violence the extreme violence that exists within the drug markets with organized crime That's just part of the business model That's to protect themselves and their business It's to reduce their risk, you know, the more intimidating they are Then the less at risk they are because they don't get grassed up There's no gain for them to come and take revenge on me Because that would be a high risk venture with no gain So, you know that the violence is in the markets just It's just the business model and it's a business model Because the drugs are illegal because we police it Yeah, so what's your opinion on gangsters then? What do you see them as? People who are high profile who are flooding the streets with drugs Crime prostitution. What do you look at them and see? I see people that are a product of the system And you mentioned prostitution, but really Most of almost all of organized crime really is about the drug supply the illicit drug supply Other crimes are possible because of the money that's available from the illicit drug supply Even the national crime agency says that, you know, it's worth the market is worth 10 billion pounds a year in the UK 10 billion now Those gangsters only exist because drugs are banned Organized crime didn't exist because before alcohol prohibition It was probably the prohibition of alcohol that created organized crime There was no connection at all between crime and drugs in this country Until drugs were banned So I see a gangster and I see someone who is a natural product Of the way we treat drugs. It's a natural product of drug policy. Yeah, so obviously What about legalizing drugs? It's the only solution. Do you think so? It's the only solution to the problem we've got As I say, there was no link between drugs and crime beforehand But did the government want to legalize drugs because then if drugs are legalized the prison system numbers drop Even pharmaceutical drugs because methadone is a massive problem in scotland. It's a it's a drug that It's just a billion dollar industry as well in itself Do These numbers want to be dropped or is it a money organization where not just criminals are involved in drugs But also the people who are involved and higher scale even the police force governments Is there a lot of corruption and say the police as well? well, I mean That there's there's a lot of questions there, but I basically First of all, I want to point out that legalizing we in in the activism world We tend to try and avoid the word legalize because people people find it a scary word and it sort of gives an idea of a free for all Well, the thing is it's a free for all now It's the wild west out there It really is there is no control the people who decide what drugs what goes in what drugs and who they're sold to are organized criminals It should be Licensed premises so legally regulating drugs is about getting them under control Like we do alcohol, but of course alcohol could be controlled better Yeah, of course But at least you can tweak alcohol regulation you can do because it's regulated I think alcohol is just a big one of the biggest drugs out there. It's more glorified. It's more sociable acceptable It's every second shop Well, there is clear evidence that it's the most dangerous drug. Yeah, so the very clear. Yeah, very clear But the people who don't want legal regulation is organized crime So the closer we get to legal regulation there will be pushback from organized crime And they will use their methods of corruption to try and stop that progression But as for corruption Well, yeah, I mean corrupt corruption is huge somebody well it's it's massive, but I'll I'll tell you. Um, I mean I've come into contact with police corruption quite quite a lot of times, but Perhaps the most significant event I'll tell you about if if you like of course um Again, I'll take you back to Nottingham where I met Kami Kami introduced me to one of the gangsters who was in the team of calling gun About four and a half months into the operation The day after that two of my backup team Uh went off sick So I got two new people to to come onto the team. I met the first one. Chuckie's hand had no problem with him The second one shook his hand and the hairs just went up on the back of my neck You know, when you've been on the streets day after day feeling at risk, your senses are quite fine-tuned You know, you're really sensitive to body language and this guy was just wrong So I spoke to the boss and said look boss, I can't have this guy knowing what I'm doing So he excluded them both so they didn't ask any questions and they they never found out what the job is about Twelve months later Collin Gunn is brought down brilliant work by Nottinghamshire Constabulary And it was found that that carp that I take an exception to a guy called Charlie Fletcher was An employee of Collin Gunn He'd been paid to join the police And he was paid £2,000 a month on top of his police wages For information and bonus bonuses for good information By the time I'd met him, he'd been in the police for seven years Seven years You can you know, you can look him up. He's he's the newspaper stories of his conviction as online Charlie Fletcher Now I have to make something really clear That kind of corruption can only be paid for by the money from the illicit drug supply There's two reasons for that. For one, there's more money in the illicit drug supply than anything else But two, the way we police drugs creates monopolies See police are really good at catching drug dealers Brilliant after that. They'll catch them day after day. They'll catch twice as many if you give them twice as much resources they will do But they never make they never shrink the market. The market never reduces ever You arrest the drug dealer. You just create an opportunity for another one or two more So By policing drugs and arresting people you thin out the competition for the most successful gangsters And in fact, the best gangsters use police informants to get rid of the competition The police do the business for them. Yeah, it's not a lot of Police do the business for them. Yeah, is there a lot of High-profile gangsters who are snitches? I believe there's a lot of informants out there who don't go to prison because they're also working with the police Do you see that a lot a lot of high-profile names giving the police information to Keep them off their back, but also jail the competition around them That's exactly how it works. And in fact, there's a chapter in drug wars where we interviewed a guy called Frank Matthews Who was a high-profile informant handler in the mat and he realized the extent of police corruption And he started reporting on it whistleblowing He'd put so many gangsters in prison. He'd chased organized crime all of his career Only went at the point when he started grassing up fellow police officers. Did he realize his life was in threat? He thought he was going to get murdered And in fact, he had to be snatched He had to be taken away and put into witness protection to protect him from corrupt police So what's the fine line then between entrapment also if you're sitting at a party or sitting buying drugs off someone or taking it in front of them Where is an entrapment charge coming to play where it's like you're setting it up, but what is entrapment? entrapment A thing now Yeah, I mean with the rules of undercover policing The the first instruction you're given actually in your formal sort of Instructions for their true deployment The number one is you must not act as an agent provocateur, which is what you're talking about entrapment an agent provocateur is where you Insights somebody to commit an offense or an offense which is more serious than they would have committed so And that's important and that's that's about the ethics of undercover policing that you that you don't Entrap somebody I did actually once break that rule It's one of the chapters in in good cop There was a burglar who was Burgling old women at night picking on Old age pensioners flats Local police knew who it was But couldn't catch him lots of extra patrols He was brilliant at forensics didn't never left any dna fingerprints anything So they thought well, he's a dealer. He's dealing on metamine as well and cocaine So they basically sent me in to see if we could get him off the streets by another means and I bought a small amount off him And then I talked him up to a kilo And I knew he wasn't capable of kilo, but to my mind it was a way of catching him Um And so when when he was seized with the kilo it was less than 1 pure Uh, which means he'd only got a small amount and he Padded it out. Yeah padded it out, but he got censored on a kilo now. That was unethical of me but that is one of the things that goes on um, and It's actually one of the reasons why police are very very resistant Some police not all police lots of police in the uk are actually calling for drug law reform But there are some police who see The drug laws is just a tool to catch criminals And uh, and so that's why you'll find some police are actually resistant to reform Yeah, so we had that kilo and it was only 1 percent Basically pure. Yeah, so it's probably an outpashed. Yeah, he's charged with a full kilo. Yeah Yeah, it's scary because I've had a lot of people on the podcast as well who's been set up with a police who's spent 20 years behind bars and just through Um, maybe get stuff planted on them and they say they're sell look They're no angels But because they can't catch them then they set them up With something else is that did that used to happen a lot that people get set up and just to get them off the streets I don't doubt it does happen, but that I haven't I haven't seen that particularly how It's difficult but anybody that's been involved in a life of crime They always look at the police as a an enemy and you can understand that especially if you've worked on both sides from buying drugs to try to catch them which been your biggest bust Biggest bust. Yeah uh I suppose in terms of numbers numbers that suppose it was that it was the burger bar boys in northampton um, because they were a gang from birmingham who'd taken over the supply in northampton And um at the end of that, I think there was there was 96 people arrested took seven months There was 96 people all in all involved in the trade. There were six Major gangsters from you know amongst the burger bar boys And the rest were people who were runners for them and people stashing for them and also all sorts of things But at the end of that seven months, I knew I knew I had caught every single person involved in the harrowing crack and lemphetamine trade in that town every person I knew that because there were no more numbers to get i've met everybody I knew so that huge operation Involved five different counties of police. It's huge operation because they wanted to get as many people in one go And so it was massive and there was newspaper articles about it when I spoke to the intel guy A week later He says yep, we managed to shut down the drug supply in northampton for two hours Two hours. That's not even enough time for someone to rattle Yeah, so obviously fighting against the drug war When you say that you need 100 people put inside Somebody else just comes through the ranks and takes the reins. So do you ever feel you're fighting a fucking lost cause? Well, it took a long time for the penny to drop for me, but that you know, but you can't Dismiss that you can't dismiss the fact that another organized crime group just came from birmingham And there was a new number on the streets in two hours And that organized crime group would have been rubbing their hands together saying look what the police have done for us But the calling boys they'll get some extra stuff. We're going to make a absolute killing So All you're doing is constantly perpetuating the the violence on the street It's just a vicious circle that Do you see a lot that maybe who's someone who's making a lot of money through drugs? And maybe seeing someone who's also involved in crime setting them up to get them away so they can move in and Obviously they can take over Oh, yeah, I mean there's all sorts of dirty tricks used trying to try and take someone's Territory off them all the time and sometimes those dirty tricks just come down to violence and murder But there's always friction because in an unregulated market, you're always going to get that You don't get it. You know, you don't get um A fight between karlsberg and eineken or smirnoff and and you know jack daniels You don't because it's regulated but in this unregulated market It's complete chaos now the trouble that I had is when that penny dropped for me and I realized That how futile it was That I might you know, I might be full in filling the prisons up full of people But that wasn't making society safer There's just more people became drug dealers More people stepped into that crime. So it's actually increasing crime so And also I had to face up to the fact that You know from that first guy I knocked on the door and he said take care. Don't get arrested. Nice bloke Every year after there the streets got more violent for 40 every single year So I had to face up to the fact that actually that's down to me All people like me. So what do you think the root of the problem is obviously poverty plays a big part where people Um are struggling to make money. So the sea crime is a get-out cause where they can feed their family But I always believe in karma anybody who I know who's been active or involved in anything dodgy Or either dead during the jail and that's just facts. That's just there's no one ever gets out What would what is your advice for anybody who's maybe involved in anything dodgy and think there's no way out What would you advice would you give them? What have you seen? To prove that it ain't a fucking life Even though you might think you're billy big balls even in Glasgow You'll see them driving about in the least cars their fake Rolexes and they think they're gangsters It is a life of misery because everything has a ripple effect If you're destroying other people's life to benefit your own, it's only going to come back and bite your nose You've got one option and that's misery. You ain't gonna have a good life. I've had A lot of series criminals on this podcast and every one of them will tell you it ain't a life We either catch up me in three years five years 10 years It will always catch up on you. What advice would you give for anybody? That's maybe involved or maybe think about getting involved because they see maybe their uncles or their fathers What advice would you give them for maybe not to take that leap or maybe to change Hmm, well I'm gonna answer that question in a slightly unusual way if you don't mind because There's a great misunderstanding about the cause of crime Crime is not caused by criminals It's caused by opportunity Coupled with the lack of opportunity so in other words People who have no other options in poor communities are more likely to turn to crime Theoretically, but the most important thing to note is If you're if you're committing a burglary You're a burglar There's very little demand for that crime because there's very few people are actually willing to commit that crime Break into someone's house very few So if you arrest one person you've reduced that demand for the crime, haven't you? Now for drug crime If you arrest someone for a drug crime you've not reduced the demand in that market someone else will take take take take that place so You ask what the problem is There is a difference. There's a massive difference between drug prohibition and all of the crimes. You've got to separate them The community is being affected by people who are involved in organized organized crime drug dealing They're affected because the drugs are banned. They're not regulated Now as as for what what I would say to people who would consider getting into crime well Most drug dealers I've met. I mean I've met some top at the top of the tree ones I've met some middle management and some people can be vicious actually the vast majority of drug dealers are nice people who trade To a small group of people, you know, most people know who will sell cannabis. They're nice people most people who sell MDMA They're just nice people who get it in for their mates of the weekend or for a festival You know, most people who use drugs do it non problematically Most people who sell drugs socially, they're not criminals They're people who are doing a natural human thing But because the law says they're illegal they're criminals So I think it's important to separate this in a conversation 90% of drug use is non problematic So you have to start thinking about people who have a problem with drugs as someone who just needs help And other people they just need regulated drugs to make it safer so I know that's not quite what you're after in the question, but That there are solutions to our problems in society And the first solution the most important one is to regulate the drug markets If you do that the police can deal with more serious crime Then we can start looking at health-based solutions for things because it's actually Significantly cheaper to try and look after people than it is to incarcerate them. Well, Scotland's it's all time high just now Scotland is Just risen 27% of drug related deaths. So it is massive in Scotland. So it's a concern. It's a worry. I have kids I know how bad it can be growing up in a rough area. So For me, it's a worry and for me people who think it can be cooler think it's For me, and I will always say drug is a scapegoat. No matter if it's at a festival No matter what it is you can have fun without it. I've took drugs for many years But looking back on it was because I was weak because I was lonely because I was scared I couldn't face reality It gave it gave me the courage and the strength to be loud and daft as if I was fine But looking back I was vulnerable. So for me No matter if it's a festival. No matter what it is. No matter if you're you can control it It's still you're still hiding from something And what do you think? For you working in the drug culture and try to stop it and try to did you see any Any moment the crimes going down or the drugs becoming less and less because right now I think we're at the peak of crime and drug related deaths, which is scary Since drugs were banned they have got stronger Cheaper and more varied Constantly when I was buying a tent bag of heroin in 1993 for that 10 pounds. I would get 0.12 percent at 0.12 of a gram um And I was paying for 14 years later. I was paying 10 pounds for the same amount But over that period of time the drug got significantly stronger So what other commodity is there that's inflation proof and gets stronger over time? The reason for that is because the drug Is it has an illicit market? We have no control over it So we have to control things but I I have to disagree with you that um about I mean I took I took a view that any drug use was was a problem or escapism You know when I started in the police and for many people it is but 90 percent of people who use drugs Have no problematic relationship with them at all. So I now realize you know looking at the evidence speaking to um scientists Uh, obviously research in the history of drug policy in the uk I now realize drug use is actually normal It's a normal human activity. Should it be normal? Well, why shouldn't it be because it's it's taking you anything you take externally takes you away from a conscious frame of mind What's not is not natural Well, who says it's not natural, but humans have been using drugs for for thousands of years There's there's various animals use drugs. It's just quite a natural. It's a natural existence a natural thing to do But but how could we fight a war on drugs if You're accepting it's okay for people to take it but we have to learn to live with drugs But that's what we have to do. Well, well, what's the alternative? We've we've tried banning them and stopping people using that. I don't know trying not take them Again, because it's scary. I what were a lot of people who are homeless and suicide and It can't grip you but even if you think you're taking it I know people who's had a great live great upbringing take it Maybe a few lines a few grams of coconut saturday night But that a few grams can surely go a sunday monday tuesday wednesday and it can't grip you So it's a thin very thin line to say people Um, just take it at festivals and nightclubs. I just think there's a better way to enjoy life and have a more healthier natural organic life than Hade them from the pain basically But it comes down to individual individual choice, doesn't it an individual choice becomes very very important because How what people do with their own mind and body? Really needs to be about their own personal liberty and when the government Decides that then no one's allowed to do that then the illicit market is created so Some people want to use cannabis. Some people want to use alcohol Some people use cannabis because they they don't like alcohol and actually cannabis is the safer choice when you compare the two but You know, I there's I don't I don't want to take drugs But I want people to have the freedom and if they are going to do them. I want them to survive it I want it to be as safe as possible now. I'll give you an example of a of a regulated drug Tobacco is regulated It is according to any drug counselor that you'll speak to more addictive and difficult to quit than anything We now have the lowest smoking rate in the uk since 1940 And that's only possible because it's a regulated product because we have some control over how it's sold The price who it's sold to and because it's a regulated product that you know exactly what's in it You can also have advice on the label. You can have advertising campaigns telling you what it's doing to you But you can only do that if you've found a way to live with it And that's what we need to do with the the other less dangerous drugs. So what would you say was less dangerous drugs? Less dangerous than tobacco. Yeah, well in terms of the deaths and harms They're they're all less dangerous than tobacco all of them cause the cancer rates and yeah and other other health problems and looking at the science All of the drugs are less dangerous than alcohol and the evidence I refer to for that is a 2007 report in the Lancet The scientific journal from Professor David Knott and he did A new way of comparing drug harms and he there's a lot of detail to it and it quite clearly showed that the most dangerous drug is alcohol Arrow in is dangerous. No cocaine is dangerous, but then the sliding scale goes quickly down. So at the bottom end you've got very little harm for things like Magic mushrooms lsd psychedelics mdma mdma, for example, yeah, it's supposed to be good for the brain Mdma is not banned because it's dangerous It's dangerous because it's banned So 74 people in the uk died of mdma last year every single one of those deaths is because it's a non-regulated product People deserve to have safe products. They deserve to have the right Advice so understand what you're saying you're saying the drugs should be more health and safety checked if they were legalized Then there'd be more checked where there'd be less deaths Yes, absolutely because people are still going to take them because I do a lot we do a lot of studying on psychedelics again We're the dmt in the mushrooms and it can open the mind the pine new gland same way the ayahuasca I'm drug free but they say I don't ask as a plant base where you take it and Because of the dmt in it. It's like 10 to 20 years of therapy where it brings all the trauma to the surface And they say it's the the medical cure apparently the shortcut, but for me anything you take externally is still It's still a drug. Do you know what I mean? It's it's still difficult. So what would you say for like? weed for instance, how would you feel as if they legalize weed in the uk? well, I think it's it's urgent actually it's urgent that we regulate all the drugs because The the illicit market for drugs is corrupting our entire system. It's corrupting the whole society It's corrupting the police the legal system People are dying And people less people will die if all the drugs are regulated. So yeah start with cannabis definitely there's between various estimates, but between three and five million people using cannabis probably in the uk And now if you look at it this way Homosexuality used to be illegal in this country used to be illegal people got to prison for it And that's not so distant in our past The illegality ended and the stigma started to go and now Generally we accept it's not cool to be prejudiced against people who are gay. Yeah There are significantly there are probably twice as many people using cannabis Then there are homosexuals in this country So we're talking about a lot of people who make a personal choice about their own health and their own body Should we be prejudiced against those people or should we just make things as safe as possible for them? I think it's trying to make everything as safe as possible, but also think it's good to Make people understand there is more things in life that you can do to get to a higher state Meditation breathing exercises takes you to a higher state than other drugs as well And it's more natural and I've says it in many podcasts the scientists did a study on sex alcohol Psychedelics and meditation and meditation was only one it took you to a higher state and it was internal So I think more people need to understand meditation and even breathing techniques Breathing more it sends better oxygen to the brain the gut where you can handle more anxiety fear depression So it's trying to Understand having balance, but it's scary to think that the majority people don't understand balance. They don't understand moderation Do you know what I mean? Absolutely, and I do agree with you and learning about moderation is important But at the moment that conversation is impossible because the conversation is You're not allowed to do that. Do you think if drugs were legalized? More people less people would take them I think uh when when if drugs were all legally regulated Some drugs would be taken significantly less For example heroin the most dangerous of drugs Because you would only ever have a medical model for heroin like we used to in the uk You know, there's a time in some people's living memory when we had what we're called the british system Which was the last resistance to american style prohibition And that meant that if you had a problem with heroin you went to the doctor and you got given heroin Not methadone as you mentioned methadone is much more harmful to the health and heroin But what that means is if you're giving someone heroin from a doctor It means that there's no incentive for that person to well They're not being exploited by organized crime And they've not got organized crime trying to get them to find new customers So we had an epidemic because it was banned So that so as soon as you get control of it, you'd have much less people having heroin You'd have less people using crack cocaine. Yeah, so Say that with illegalized drugs say someone get 20 years today for drug dealing the legalized drug next week What would happen to the people who were in prison for drugs? Well, that's a really important question and I would like to direct it to people who've been arrested for possession Because an important part of reform is to make sure that those people who've got a criminal record for possessing cannabis for possessing mdma That they have their records expunged because people should not have their job prospects ruined Uh for a criminal for a conviction for drugs And part of ending that criminalization is to make sure that people don't suffer For this terrible policy that we've had for decades as for the drug dealing that's a different conversation because It's it's difficult to expunge those kind of Records and of course a lot of people have been involved in violence to do it. So I think you would have to look You'd have to take time and look at every case individually so when did you for somebody who went undercover to stop the war on drugs and then to now Like want it legalized for people to understand and help to safety It's like a different flop of the coin. How did that come about? Well, that's because I realized That everything I was doing trying to police drugs was futile But then I realized that it was actually much worse than futile and that by the action of policing drugs I was part of the mechanism that was constantly making society more violent Drugs being banned means ever increasing violence to control the trade It's as simple as that it always has been about that same as alcohol prohibition in America That's why we're getting increased in violence There are whole sections of community who can't talk to the police because organized crime runs that community You know the kind of places i'm talking about So how did the police treat you now that you're speaking out about this and it's kind of went full circle? How do you Like a black sheep or you like black ball do they speak to you or you're an outsider? How do you get treated? Well, that's that's interesting because in 2015 when I first started speaking out I got I mean I got I was at public enemy number one to the code for criminals and fucking police Absolutely, absolutely Because as far as as far as sort of drugs covert police was concerned. I was a whistleblower. I was letting secrets out I mean that you know, that's a whistleblower book I'm admitting to all sorts of stuff in there and you know, I was I was really public enemy number one Close friend of mine was given a lawful order to never speak to me again and They ordered her to remove me from her social media and phone At that moment, you know, that's how harsh things were But things have changed drastically and actually in the uk It's police which are leading the reform debate now now. I'm part of an international organization rapidly growing international organization called the law enforcement action partnership In the uk. We're called leap uk We have members everywhere former chief constables other undercover cops like me former mi5 prison governors. We've got a brilliant member in scotland jim duffy Um, so there's there's a lot of us and we're growing and we've had an influence And now we've got police and crime commissioners and senior police talking about the same things that we've been saying for years And you've got a police like in durham cleveland birmingham talking about Using policing money to actually prescribe heroin to problematic heroin users to reduce crime To take the market away from organized crime. You know, this is senior police. It's the chief constables talking about this so Police are actually leading the reform debate and this is in spite of politicians not because of them So see when you were undercover as well, did you ever let's say somebody picked up a parcel? Say it was a big parcel or maybe picking up guns Did you know they were what they were picking up but you had to let them go because you knew it was going to Retive even bigger things Yeah, yeah, quite often. I mean there's times when I've been threatened with a gun In fact, I was told to strip naked by the burger bar boys and they lifted up the shirt and showed me this automatic pistol tucked into the trousers And we took the view actually to keep quiet about that to be honest because we wouldn't we didn't have the evidence against everyone at that time and if we'd Actually push the alarm button and gun chasing them for that gun. We wouldn't have got to the end of the operation So there was always that kind of decision So you had to get all the answers before you could make a move Yeah So if you've seen what happens if you've seen someone murder someone But yeah, if there was a hundred people that potentially could get to prison go to prison And that one murder could jeopardize that whole Operation with that still being pulled the plug on to get the full answers Now a murder would have pulled the plug on the operation straight away because there is nothing more serious than a murder So that would have been the end and what about the panic button. Did you have something on you? Were you wired? No, nothing. No, no, I mean I I would wear a camera Or recording device only once I was confident I'd built up some trust Uh with the people so at the start, you know, I might get searched. I had nothing on me at all Yeah, so Mentally even speaking about it. There's a bring back a lot of emotions for you. They get anxiety. Do you feel fine now? Um, I'm a I'm a bit on edge to be honest, but um, it's unpredictable. I mean ptsd some days I have a terrible day Other days I can deal with it. Absolutely fine. Um I might struggle a bit tomorrow Yeah drained. Do you take any cannabis oils or for your ptsd? Do you take any some? I don't know. I mean I wish that cannabis did did suit me to be honest. Um, because I know it helps quite a few other people with ptsd and I wish it did Unfortunately, I get much more relief from alcohol. So I have to be really careful not to drink too much Yeah, certainly when I first got my ptsd symptoms I was drinking huge amounts like ridiculous amounts. So I balance it out kind of forget kind of well, it's surprisingly Effective for ptsd. It just you know, it just numbs it. Yeah for that present moment But the next day the problems are a hundred times worse. There's always that effect. Yeah, I mean, I'd then I'd have another drink Okay now don't be drinking people No, no, I mean, you know, that's problematic because there is no more What about what about meditation? What about ayahuasca? Do you know about ayahuasca? I do. Yeah, it's um, yeah, it's DMT combined with um, with a MAO inhibitor Yeah, um, it's yeah, it's something I might consider at some point. Well, I went to Costa Rica there. Um Then we made a documentary on ayahuasca Absolutely, I say I've worked for people who are suicidal and who are homeless some people kind of just I made the changes in the sacrifices within me. I did it myself, but some it's difficult some people need that we Push or they say ayahuasca is a shortcut ayahuasca is a tea for anybody watching. It's a tea you drink The ceremony we were in had like 60 70 people you take the tea and for eight hours They say all your pain and trauma comes to the surface and you do it all They say it's a shortcut to depression anxiety the people who were in the documentary who are heroin addicts um suicidal a lot of cancer patients as well who they say ayahuasca can The the the say this tea has been here for thousands and thousands of years. It's a plant-based medicine that um It changes life. They say this is three four weeks ago. I did it. They say this is when you start feeling the effects For me personally, I've still not had that miracle yet or that effect where you're supposed to feel in length They say it reconnects you with your soul a lot of people who did the ayahuasca are in a great place just now They're feeling amazing the best I've ever felt a lot of people PTSD It's um, is that a miracle? Plan is it for yet? I don't know for yet The answers will be when I follow those people up in two three months to see if they're still in a good place As a placebo effect kicking to play also where they're believing it so much that they can trick their brain Into believing that they're cured, which is a great thing also So yeah, and I'm hoping that if these people can then maybe ayahuasca or something like yourself can Because it's fucking scary when I was taking ayahuasca. I was in hell for two three days. I wasn't seen fire They're ceiling opened. I've seen a lot of misery and pain But they say you take on your ancestors pain your family's pain and you release it It's funny because I've actually me my mum used to quite argue and fight quite a lot But since I've been back it's been it's been the calmest it's been in many many years Maybe that's one of the factors. I don't know but that's interesting. Yeah, it's uh, it's something that's potentially I don't know if it is the medical but A lot of people seem to be going towards it more and more and more Well, it's interesting because you back up my point that drug use is a natural human thing and that's been humans have done it for thousands of years In various means, you know, whether it's people queuing the chewing the coca leaf in south america or people taking ayahuasca But in terms of psychedelics, there's now lots of good scientific evidence that many of them have Um benefits so sardisibin for example Has had some success in treating what what's called untreatable depression And that's remarkable because it's people it's it's rescuing people from a constant hell Um, and there is evidence of that work. So it's good. It's now being licensed for further Yeah Again, there is always shortcuts But there's men like a guy called jody spencer who works on the mindset who believes the mind can change anything on your body Just with the belief and the The consistency of believing and tricking the brain the brain doesn't know what's real or fake So you can trick your brain into re-energising refocusing even but if you look at monks or if you look at other people who meditate every day They don't take the other stuff to get that enlightenment either So there's always no matter what we sit and talk there's always going to be both sides of the coin Oh tinkly and it's what works for anybody. I'm not it's what works for you But as long as you're not hurting anybody as long as you're You're feeling great from it. And if you go listen, we're human beings If you have two bad days like you're gonna have tomorrow then go and have three and four good days Everything in your mind I believe a lot of people concentrating the things I haven't got instead of the things I have got But going through a trauma like yourself and a lot of people who are homeless Have get ptsd from who've been in the army police officers Um, it's a whole list of different people with different backgrounds. You also said that your life Was in danger a few times undercover. How close were you where a getting killed? Oh, really close. I mean, I've had a samurai sword to my throat and Knives threatened my knives many times. I suppose the closest was though when I was in Leicester It was right at the end of the operation and a gangster I'd bought heroin from right at the start I'd not got him on camera because I hadn't been wearing a camera at that point So I wanted to get him out, but he wasn't dealing hands on he was sending other people out So I thought well, I'll tempt him out by getting some counterfeit clothing So I got some fake stone island jackets got hold of the true customs And uh, put a phone call and it says like I've got these jackets here interested it. So he came to meet me He knew me trusted me but the trouble is he bought two of his mates with him to see these jackets I was in the secluded car park in Leicester And uh, he says well, you know, do you just want to sell these jackets? Or do you want something while you're here and I says well, I'll have some white if you carry him white So he gets this massive block of crack which is like bigger than a VHS Dirt her box sits in the front of his car and starts carving it up The meanwhile one of his mates looks me up and down and says hey, how long have you known him? He's suddenly suspicious of me and he starts pushing me up against this wall and starts searching my clothes And it's not James Bond tech It's not that sophisticated. He looks in this button and he finds the camera in the book I think I'm in trouble here and he says spoonie man. He's 5.0. He's fucking heat man And I always look at these people thinking you're not old enough to have seen Hawaii 5.0 Why are you calling me 5.0? I've no idea. But anyway says he's 5.0 man. He's fucking heat so What I did is I knew that if he could convince the guy that knew me in the car that I was a cop I was I was dead So I just launched into this abusive Terade at him. I says what you fucking doing picking at my clothes you fucking this and just swearing at him Took the jacket off him and started folding it really slowly Really slow putting it in the bag and constant stream of abuse So he couldn't get a word in edgeways, but also he's a bit stunned thinking Hang on. Have I seen what I've seen what's going on here? I didn't expect this His main fucked him Yeah, mind fucked him. Yeah, so I carried on with this stream and I walked as slowly as I could Giving him this abuse walking away because I know if I ran You know you run away from walls and they run after you I was being really really slow and I got halfway across this car park I heard this running behind me thinking oh He's managed to convince him. I'm thinking if I just get one punch it and then leg it But turn around and it's the gangster that I know And he says I don't mind my mate. He's a dickhead. Don't you want this ting? I'm thinking you really want to sell me crack now Anyway, I said, yeah, you may is a dickhead and he's been picking up my clothes It's not even my jacket and I give him this 20 quid. It's all captured on the camera with exchange And his mate is screaming at him I'm telling you he's fucking 5.0. He's got a camera, but obviously he's not listening So he starts going back to the car. I'm thinking I can't believe I've got away with this Anyway, I got near to the entry exit of the car park and hear the squealing of the wheels I'm thinking okay. He's convinced him now and this car comes zooming after me. So I think we're just going to leg it now I get to the road and onto this pavement and I start running towards the traffic island and You know where the traffic island splits and you get a metal barrier I'm separating I thought I'm just sprint for that and this car is coming after me up the pavement just zooming after me And I get to this metal railing and it's screech screeches and it stops about a centimetre from the railing It must have been within a metre of hitting me So then I carried on walking thinking I've got I've got away from them. They're going round the roundabout I'm revving the engine but then Quite a short distance. I could cut across to a pedestrian area. So I was quite safe quite quickly So I got back To the safe location of the debrief site and um, you know told the team told the intel guy The car registration number the description. He went away A few moments later he came back laughing. He says, oh, I don't know why they didn't just didn't shoot you Because there's loads of intelligence that they've got a gun in that car so um So, yeah, that was that freaking you though. Did I not think what the fuck am I doing? Oh, it terrified me God, yeah, that was that was a that was um, that was a genuinely scary day Did you ever wear disguises like the fake mustaches the wigs? Did you do that stuff or was it just the way you look just now just different clothes? Just different clothes. Yeah, I mean, you know, when I first started I used to dress a bit like a scally Do you have that word in scotland? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I dress like a scally um, like full tracky Um, Nike airmax trainers, you know, no disrespect to anyone listening to this who's really into their sportswear I've got naking on max one just now Yeah But but you know that was in the early days, but then later on I sort of I found that actually I got more intros If I looked like I was really struggling and living in squats and things like that So did you ever work alone? It was always alone. Was the job of a partner? Most of the time I worked alone, uh, and I preferred to walk alone to be honest because You know, you can be in charge of you know, exactly what you're gonna say if you're on your own You don't have to account for what someone else said Having said that I did work with other people at times and I worked with some extremely talented people as well very talented. Yeah. So obviously Going through all that life. What made you quit? What was the breaking point? What was your catalyst to go? Fuck this enough son off I worked in brighton and I got a vision of the future in brighton because the cops down there were Uh unpleasant Bullying characters, you know, I've worked with some good professional people around the country I got to brighton and they would they were not professional at all They've been overusing the tactic to the point where organized crime had adapted And then what they'd done to adapt is they were using homeless people as their point of contact And what they were saying to the homeless people is you bring anyone near to us Though we don't know and we're going to kill you And they were telling people who they already had killed And they were naming people who died of who'd been listed as dying of overdoses Now I can't say For sure that there were casual murders going on What I can say is that the overdose rates in brighton were higher than anywhere else in the country by a long way And there were lots of people on the streets who were convinced that were casual murders going on just to control people and intimidate people and um I could see quite clearly then when I reviewed the work that I'd done through my undercover career That this was a situation created by policing drugs There was no that violence wasn't there until we tried harder and ramped up the drug war And it's never it's never going to end until we legally regulate drugs that violence is never going to end The corruption is never going to end And I found myself in an untenable position. How can I carry on in the police? You know, I tried I stopped undercover work and I stayed in the police for a while. I became a detective sergeant Um, but I just became more and more troubled by the fact that I I'd come to these conclusions. I understood this I understood that the problems was caused by prohibition of drugs you know it We got the chicken and the egg the wrong way around we've caused this problem And understanding that I I just found myself in an untenable position and the stress got too much Yeah, Jen, who's more back to front then the kind of things that were going on and Um, where where becomes the good guys and the bad guys anymore you kind of get lost and kind of go What the fuck am I doing? You question everything? You question everything everything. Yeah, absolutely because you know, so much of policing is about drug policy You know, you arrest a burglar who's got a problem with heroin And actually I know that if he'd been prescribed heroin, he wouldn't be burgling If you looked after him and prescribed that drug to him, he wouldn't have broken into someone's house And you made a good point earlier on that about Exploiting vulnerable people, you know, the vulnerable people are being exploited by the criminals and the police I exploited the same people the gangsters were exploited and that people caught in the crossfire And there's we don't need to do this. We can do things differently. We know we can do things So what do you think then we should do then do you think it should for educating people because it's knowledge is power Educating people should we start at the schooling to understanding things a bit more for kids to maybe have a better opportunities and understanding What is there we speak about drugs at school do we even speak about drugs in secondary school? Maybe the latter years maybe when you're 15 16 Should we be getting teaching kids as young as five and six About drinking drugs and the risks and the health and safety and stuff like that and Getting a better understanding of life. Do you think maybe schooling should change some The curriculum curriculum. How do you say that word curriculum curriculum curriculum? Do you think that should maybe some things should get put in place to change to educate the kids for a better future? Yes, quite definitely, but it comes back to legal regulation We can only educate about drugs when we know what's in the drugs Because otherwise if unless you regulate drugs education just comes down to just say no And we know that just say no doesn't work. So what we need to teach people is harm reduction We need to teach people to make healthy choices And you can only do that if you know what's in the drugs You can only do that about mdma really If you can buy it from a licensed pharmacy, and you know that each dose is 0.86 Of a ground you can only do that if you've got the right Labelling You you can only do that you can only start talking to the kids about that if you've got a regulated product But if they regulate it do you not think there's always somebody From the darker side who would make another drug that wouldn't be legalized That's stronger and fuck you up more just to to get more involved and Do you not mean the kind of operation or opportunity? Well, no, well now actually because there's clear evidence that that where a regulated drug is available People will use the safer commodity So I'll give you an example of where a dirty drug the market for a dirty drug would disappear or for the most part disappear That's spice No spice synthetic cannabinoids is a product Of the prohibition of cannabis If cannabis had legally been legally regulated 15 years ago, there would be no spice on our streets It was created as a cheap Alternative to cannabis. It's become much more. I mean, it's not it's not anything like cannabis now. It's an extreme drug But you know people die from spice if if people really did want to do spice There are versions of spice which don't kill people Why do you think the death rate in scotland is at the all-time high just now on drugs? Well, I would say that westminster policy Centralised policy has got a lot to do with it and scotland Like most nations has its own particular problems with drugs and scotland needs to be able to control its own drug policy I would say it's it's an aspect of government which needs devolving now scotland Have taken decisions or wanted to take decisions that evidence says would would save lives So for example, they wanted a drug consumption room in Glasgow All the evidence is there to support that a drug consumption room would save lives And help people get into services. It's a way of taking care of people. But that decision was blocked by Westminster is blocked by the english government. Yeah, it's scary, but again successfully his clothes in portugal are leading by example Their crime rate their their addiction issues have dropped massively the biggest in the world So why are we not following the footsteps of places like portugal? it's Politicians are nervous of calling for just greedy I don't I don't know. I mean, I've I've got to know a lot of politicians and I have a very old-fashioned view about Politicians as they're good politicians to be honest. I don't know what I see I just don't think there's enough help for people and they can make the changes to Get the help for people. Well, there there are good politicians in the uk now There are good ones in england. There are good ones in scotland Ronnie Cowan for example is one example of a brilliant one in in scotland Is the MP for in mclad and he's a fantastic advocate For drug law reform and there are there are many others cross-party, you know, it's not it does this issue doesn't belong to one party And there are growing numbers of politicians who are looking at the example of portugal and my organization leap uk We spend a lot of time speaking to politicians and what we can do is we give a politician confidence Because you know, we you if the cops are saying it, you know, we've got their backs, haven't we? It backs up what they're saying. So there is a shift in politics Portugal is a good example and the the most important aspect of portugal is that they used to have drug deaths higher than scotland Now they only have three deaths per million in the in the uk overall. We have sort of 60 deaths per million So that's an enormous difference. So we should be following them straight away, but What I would say is that portugal is not the perfect system Because organized crime still still runs a supply, you know, people don't get sent to prison That it's decriminalized. So possession doesn't get people a criminal record But people still have to go to gangsters to buy them and stuff. So they still have the corruption And you know, that corruption is only going in one direction the changes making changes Can put an effect of Driving numbers down glasgow is think murder capital or knife capital of europe and maybe five six years ago a few years back And they've massively dropped those numbers. So making changes It does come into effect, but they need to make the changes now in scotland and england because People are losing their life as a young girl in glasgow 16 17 ecstasy dead um And that's not scary. It scares me because I took so many drugs when I was young. I don't think they're just strong now But it's scary because I fear for my kids. I fear for them to See all these kids and if and it just they think they're having a good time and It's scary to fucking get that phone call to say you've lost a loved one So for yourself, Neil going forward for the future, obviously you're an activist and you're doing you're doing great things and i'm quite surprised actually, um, obviously undercover stuff to make that and speaking so Openly and honestly so going forward for the future. What do you see yourself doing and what changes would you like to see in place? I mean going I mean my future. I see a future of just continuing to campaign um for whatever incremental change we can get, you know We heroine assist the treatment heroine prescribing we want urgently drug consumption rooms We need urgently legalising the cannabis market regulating it Urgently to protect children from the drug and to protect children from organised crime And then we need to regulate the rest, you know them gma that the girl 17 year old He died in scotland. Was it tea in the park? Yeah, I was like one of the trans man. I think yeah, that's it Um, that's happening too often and that would not happen if the drugs were regulated So this is this is urgent people are dying now um So, you know my my organization will keep expanding and we will keep Speaking to politicians, but actually more important than politicians Is the social movement? So I mentioned the social movement to end the criminalising of homosexuality earlier There's a very clear parallel here That didn't that law didn't change because politicians Decided from the top that law changed because of social movement from the bottom And the same thing is going to happen with drug law reform So if anyone out there finds himself agreeing with me And agreeing with leap UK That we need to regulate the drug supply. We need drug law reform. We need decriminalisation. We need to save lives Then please support us on social media. Um, what is your social media? Well on on twitter and instagram We are at uk leap. Okay Uh on facebook, we are leap uk. We'll put the links for people to see under um One of the also Great. So I mean supporters and Just try and pass this on and explain to other people. Please do read the books, but Use them use them as a tool because that's why I did them really Well, your first book um That's the first book the first book good cop bad war Um Give me a wee bit intro for this for people going by it Well, that's a memoir that's that's all of the the dangerous situations I got into. Um The people I met All the things that happened to me and and you know the reasons why I came to the conclusions that I did drug wars is um It it's a history of that's a whistleblowing book. No, that's the whistleblowing book. There's a good cop bad. Yeah Yeah, that's the first one drug There is some whistleblowing in drug wars because of the chapter from a guy called frank matthews who Explains about the extent of police corruption Um, but that's a history book essentially. Um, but they're both tools really I mean thankfully people have told me that they enjoy them, which is good Um, but they're tools and it's information that you can use to help grow that social movement. Yeah, because I was Um, obviously, I know you were coming on. I've been watching a lot of your stuff There's so many videos you've out there speaking out and being open and honest It's a it's refreshing also obviously it's um sitting by next undercover copper and doing this kind of stuff it is it's It's good that you're Try to awaken people and try to help people from the drug culture, especially another life that you are in you were in Um, give me one of the stories from this bit a quick story To get people intrigued. Okay. Um Well, I told you about frank matthews the guy who um, who had to Run away from the map because he was whistleblowing and corrupt cops But I'll tell you something that which um, there's a chapter where we wanted to try and make it clear to people The cause and effect of banning drugs and how it's what how the changes happened over time So we went to Liverpool and we interviewed three gangsters From Liverpool one was a right hand man of Curtis Warren famous gangster first one who got into the Sunday Times rich list as a gangster But of course, um organized crime have got better at hiding their money since that Um, so he got into dealing heroin in the 1970s second one got into organized crime in the 1990s and under the 90s when organized crime became more corporate and international and a bit more slick And the third one was a 16 year old boy Who had escaped county lines drug dealing? And perhaps the most interesting question we asked these three the first one we said we asked them each of them How easy was it for you to get a gun as a young bloke getting into organized crime? and the first one said well I could have asked and I could have got taken to the higher ups. That was his phrase not mine Could have gone to the higher ups and I would have had to explain exactly why I needed a gun And they would have listened to me patiently and then they would have said no Don't be so stupid. Why would you want to draw attention to yourself and to me by using a gun? If you got a beef with someone go toe to toe with them fight it out Second gangster next generation He says well, we knew that if we had a beef with another another gang, you know If some someone over territory or something we knew we had automatic weapons We'd get to if we had to but we'd never like youngsters at them. That'll be stupid So 16 year old he said Well, I've needed a couple of hours In fact, he said the last time I needed a gun I went to the guy And he says oh, I'm just sold my last one for today. Um, but I've got a hand grenade if you want that And he says oh, yeah, okay, then he was 15 at the time I mean he took that hand grenade home and add it in his sock drawer Ready to deal with the next person who came to his house and there was a and that was just a territorial Disagreement over drug dealing territory The reason he wanted a gun is because someone had come into his house and slashed his father across the face almost caught his eye out Can't go to the police because he's part of That community So we've gone In a time in some people's living memory from heroin being controlled by a doctor With a prescription pad To 15 year olds with hand grenades And so we can show quite clearly the change over time the cause and effect There was no problem with drugs until they were banned And if we treat it as a health issue Then those problems will really go away The fingers crossed and do you has anybody You ever put away ever spoke to you maybe try It makes sound crazy, but anybody you've ever put away for drugs and obviously the work you're doing now to highlight that Have you ever been in contact with anybody to maybe for them to change their life to maybe start working with you to also Help with the problem that we have just now Yeah, I've spoken to a lot. I haven't I haven't spoken to anyone who I've put inside. Um, that would be interesting Um, I would like to someday But I have met with lots of people who are former prisoners loads of people who are former drug dealers Who are very helpful. Um, you know, we're we're on the same side We we want to explain to people the reality of these things and Try and get some policy changes. So yeah, we'll work we'll work with anybody. Yeah, and it's good man No matter even the criminals have I've had on who've had dodgy pastors always messages In the podcast for people to pick up and listen to I don't glorify anyone I don't certainly fucking make it as if this is a live to be but there's always messages for people to pick up Whether spiritually mentally physically if you listen clearly there's always messages and I think Obviously with the root we're going down Would do you see? Do you see the problem getting worse just now before it gets better? Do you see things going to need to start to change drastically? I believe the power of the people the voice of the people so powerful if everybody gets together and starts Making a statement that okay. We've got a problem here. They need to stick by each other Do you think from now it's going to get even worse or do you think things need to fucking make Changes now to progress and help people to better their life Well, I mean in terms of drug policy, it's urgent. We need change now. We need it But it is I'm afraid it is going to get worse and what's going to get worse is the exploitation of children The county lines, you know if you've heard of county lines, you know, you could get Liverpool kids going up to Aberdeen to deal heroin and crack um That's going to get worse And it's the tip of the iceberg now. There's there's an estimated 10 000 kids doing this Now in the uk in the uk. Yeah now We have to understand that it's part of the cause and effect. We have to That the reason organized crime are exploiting children. Well, that's my fault as well That's my fault. That's the fault of people like me because the police are good at catching drug dealers When I caught the burger bar boys, I caught all those 96 people. They were all adults They were all hands-on with the money They went to they some of them went to jail for 10 years apiece So the natural strategic response to that kind of police success Is to exploit children because children can't be infiltrated by normal police informants They can't be as easily in infiltrated by undercover cops They're disposable. They're easily easily manipulated and they're cheap labor That would not have happened if police hadn't had those series of successes You know the first drug dealers when the mess used to drugs that came in in the 1970s They weren't thinking Oh one day We'll all be exploiting kids that are laughed at you. They wouldn't have thought that would happen But it was still in ever it was still inevitable And that's what we have to understand when we see these terrible things happening It's a natural progression over time things will always get worse until we take power Away from organized crime by regulating the drug markets. Yeah Neil it's been an absolute pleasure your stories. It's phenomenal. It's that it's been a roller coaster. Um, where can people buy your books? All of the normal outlets, um, amazon amazon Yeah, any of them really any of the major bookstores. Would you like to finish up on anything before we go? Um, just to reiterate, please pass this on. Please get people talking about it. And if you agree, please support us Perfect new lesson. Thanks for taking your time to come down brother. Yeah. Good luck with everything. Thank you. Thank you