 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by John metham who is the owner and operator of cocktail drum calm welcome to the show John Things appreciate you have me. Yeah, sure. And of course, you're a performer as well as you told me as a very eclectic kinds of music all kinds of different things Some of which involving cocktail drums, of course, so we'll we'll kind of go into that later, but um This is one of those episodes that I have had multiple people request I'd say over the last probably after the first six months of the show every once in a while someone would say like hey a Cocktail drum episode would be really cool But the last one and I always want to give people a shout out if they recommend an episode on Instagram Bobby 801 is the one who recommended this so thank you to Bobby but Anyway, John so why don't we? Why don't we jump in and maybe start by explaining what a cocktail drum kit is and then teach us the history Okay Well, the current what I would call the current definition of a cocktail drum usually involves some sort of kit that has a Bass drum pedal that strikes upward and hits the bottom head of a drum It could be a floor tom or a floor tom which is a little bit taller than a regular floor tom they're usually played standing up and Very often there's a snare. It's either a snare mechanism in that single main drum Set of wire brushes that pushes against the top head or it could be a side snare Mounted so that you have a regular snare on the side and the main drum acts as kind of a floor tom when you play the top And a kick drum when you play the bottom. I think that's what most people Think of when they hear cocktail drum. Yeah, but there is nothing defined. There's no actual definition it was sort of a hodgepodge history of different experiments that people were trying and Even to this day, there's still some variations on that different people doing different Techniques of making these kind of drum kits. Yeah, that's super fascinating and and I'm interested and I'm sure we'll get into it about the The the kind of technology of having the bass drum, you know, the kind of the long cocktail drum where you know The top part is the snare and the bottom part is the bass drum and how that affects the sound because I have never played one I don't think I've know I had I did once or twice There was a drum store here that I I taught at where one came in and I played it and it was awesome but um It's definitely it gets it takes some getting used to but absolutely But before we go there, let's just learn about where these quirky Interesting instruments came from sure Well that the earliest reference I have seen to anything Remotely resembling a cocktail drum is in a 1931 leady catalog and they have something that they call a conga Tom Hmm, and basically it's a single headed what looks like a floor Tom It's a little bit taller and it stands on legs and it's tall enough that you play it standing up In in the description on the product page. It says authentic Latin tone and I think in the 30s In the early dance music kind of leading into the swing music there's a lot of focus on African rhythms African drumming and Latin rhythms and Latin drumming So I think a lot of these dance band drummers were looking for new sounds new ways to incorporate the sounds and rhythms into their songs Yeah So so these things you'll see them in some old pictures where someone will have a kit you know the big old kit with a 26 inch bass drum and they might have one of these drums on the side and It's positioned in a way that you can see that they probably Stood up and played it or you might see a band leader with one standing at the front of this stage Yeah, so it was a little bit of a show drum as well. Very cool Yeah, that was the first thing we saw and I have not seen any and if someone has catalogs out there, please send them to me The next reference that I have seen is in 1948 There's a catalog for the entry for the Carlton King combination Completely different concept. This is a drum kit that has a 20 inch kick drum Or or Tom whatever you want to call it But it's turned on its side so that there's a head facing up and There's a head on the bottom now this drum Actually has a full Tempani tuning mechanism on the inside of it. So there's a huge metal bar across the bottom there's a pedal for doing the pitch up and down like a timpani and There's a kick pedal specifically designed to hit up and hit that bottom head So that's the first time I've ever seen the upward hitting pedal Wow, and that kit also had a snare mount on it. So there's a snare on the side Mounts for lots of auxiliary percussion. You usually see it with wood blocks Which you would see with a lot of the old dance band kits back then. Yeah, yeah and Apparently these were used in small pit orchestras at dance halls and movie theaters and things like that It was a way of kind of expanding the drummers Vocabulary and Sonic palette while still trying to keep it relatively small interesting and Carlton is a British brand Yeah, which is kind of cool. So and let's So people listening if you go to cocktail drum calm and on the left under learn There's a history tab and you can actually see a picture of this drum set that he's talking about but there's a really cool Article that's by Liam Mulholland from that was from drum magazine But it's just you know, so you can see some pictures and stuff on the website as we go Which is where I'll be kind of clicking through as we talk, but gosh, it's just so fascinating But it's it's so interesting too because you think like You know Who was the guy who invented it? You know, where did it come from? Is it the it's kind of like one of those things Where like people like George way or something who invented so many little things like I just wonder who the guy was who? Actually started to flip the drum over or if it goes back to like you said with the African You know the people wanting to be more in that where if this was something where it was taken from another culture And they said, okay, this is cool. We can do this and And it's just it's just interesting to piece it all together like like you've done Yeah, and then also seeing kind of how these trends kind of come and go the the timpani tuner in that in the Carleton kick drum, you know, I I haven't seen any other drums like that until I believe it was in the 80s Yamaha came out with a tip Tom floor Tom And I believe it was I only think they made a 14 inch they may have made a 16 inch as well and it was the same concept, but it was a four Tom with a tuner on Mechanism on the inside and a pedal it didn't hold pitch, but you could go up and down I remember Seeing a video at some point where Billy Cobham was using one Oh, yeah, it was again It was a little bit of a trick but kind of a fun thing Again, just trying to expand the palette of what what drummers have in their arsenal. Yeah, really Wow So to look at where we're at now. So this is the Carlton is in 1948 and it was designed to be For tight orchestra pits, right? So instead of having this footprint of this drum set spread out you shrink it And it's kind of like like you're a New York City guy. It's like, okay. We can't build wide. Let's build up, you know Yeah, it's exactly the skyscraper of of drums. So that's pretty neat Yeah, we'll come back to that when I tell you about we're wearing how I found my cocktail drums That comes later Yeah, so that the next step really again, this is all based on catalogs That I have and all these catalog images are on on the website as well 1951 was the year that these things really Started coming out. So the the next thing that really happened was that Slingerland came out with a kit they called the combo bebop and This was a kit which had a bass drum and a snare drum But the bass drum was designed to be used either Traditionally sitting on the ground with a pedal hitting straightforward or it had the hardware on it that you could flip it up and Have the play the top head and the pedal actually was convertible So they're Slingerland at the time had the Jean Krupa. Everything was Jean At that point they had the Jean Krupa pedal and they made that reversible actually have one and it's very easy To disconnect it's a metal piece instead of a strap But you disconnect that you can just flip it over to the other side and hook it in and Suddenly your pedal is hitting up instead of forward. Yeah, geez and it was a really cool thing but the whole idea was Adapt to the situation. Here's your one kit and if you need something where you're playing say a timpani part I'm doing air quotes there. You could flip the bass drum over and have that or if you're doing this kind of rhythmic African drumming you you could play sticks play it with mallets and You know use it for those other purposes or just use it as a regular drum kit Wow, it's so that's a good. It's I'm looking at the The catalogue page right now again on your website, but like so a hundred $27 for the nickel version a hundred forty two for the chrome version, which I mean in fifty one That's not cheap and the reversible pedal was $18 and fifty cents Which that's not super cheap But this is such a cool technology to be able to just flip your drum I've said this before but a lot of these old cool, you know unique technologies I always think to myself like man, I could see that today I could see a and f doing that where you take the bass drum and flip it upright or something, you know, it's just so cool Yeah, it is an interesting thing and it it really went out, you know completely phased out I think that those particular setups phased out by the end of the fifties That really wasn't a thing anymore. Yeah, yeah, but that's a parallel to of the of the day of Like Lionel Hampton and these guys who were kind of like the front men drummers who would stand there and be it's like a very show Many and and Jean Krupa's in movies and it's just like, you know what I mean? It's like it it's very theatrical versus sitting down. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I'll point out a couple of things the earliest citing that I have of what I would call a cocktail drum is in a 141 movie ball of fire in which Jean Krupa and his band play and There's a drum on the stage now It's it doesn't play it. So I have no idea if it was just a prop Yeah, or for something that he actually performed on but it looks like it's two floor tom shells One on top of the other with a band in the middle. There's no legs There's no air gap on the bottom, but there is a drum rim on the top So it, you know, couldn't really tell it could have been just a stand for the singer to put their drink on Yeah, I really don't know, you know, his his band had You know, every big band had their music stands and his band had music stands that had little drums built into them Yeah, they actually would play on some tunes. So everything on his stage was drum oriented Whether it was functional or not. So yeah as they're performing drum boogie or something like that. I'm sure that's exactly what that's from That's the song. Yep drum boogie man. Um, yeah, and and the other thing you mentioned Lionel Hampton, you know, he was famous You know, he's a vibraphone. It's been fantastic drummer as well and he was famous as part of his show for having a solo on a floor tom And there are some videos out there where he's playing both the floor tom and this conga tom that I described So he has the two drums and he's going back and forth between the two As part of a solo. That's cool All right, so we're in the 50s. We're in the early 50s right now. Um, so 51 and um, yeah Let's keep going with that because 51 was was a big year for this So in 51 we had the slingerling combo that we talked about the bebop the reversible pedal They also came out with Now it could have come out before this but this is the catalog that first had it that I know of Um slingerling came out with their own radio king combo drum Which is that same single headed tall floor tom like the conga tom that that was in the ledi catalog in 1931 But the other thing that is really amazing and cool is that rogers In their 1951 catalog, they had An outfit called a park lane cocktail outfit. So this is the first one that ever called it cocktail And that was made up of just standard rogers parts. So it was a 16 by 16 floor tom 14 by 5 snare drum or some sorry i'm doing it backwards 5 by 14 snare drum a 9 by 13 tom tom And they had hardware all over the floor tom To hang the snare drum and the tom and a couple of cymbals off of the floor tom And they had made their own upbeat pedal mechanism That was integrated with one of the legs of the floor tom So this is like light years ahead of what anybody else was doing at the time. Yeah And i'm looking at it now and it is like yeah going from like clicking from the slingerland Catalog with kind of like the conga drum to to this it was like, whoa, that is a modern Cocktail kit right there Maybe the floor tom will be a little longer, but man this thing is like Beautiful. I mean, but they're still they're almost pushing 400 bucks. I mean in the 50s, which is pretty serious It's a it's a full kit. Yeah, um, and and I think the the really significant pieces are that one the snare was separate From the the floor tom. Uh, so well, it's significant kind of in the whole history of it Some of the combo drums Did have this snare Mechanism on the inside even for the single headed ones. I had a slingerland that had this um, and you know, it's basically like half of a snare bed That is attached to like a muffler strainer. So you twist the thing to tighten The snares up against the bottom of the top head Um, and it's it's a weird sound. It's not doesn't sound like a regular snare drum So I think that you know, they they figured out that problem by doing this The only thing with the park lane is I I think you would normally have to sit down to play it Because it's a regular 16 inch high floor tom. Yeah, so you're you're not really going to get it up to a playing position Unless you're really leaning over to to play the thing. Yeah um, my thought too is like That is so much weight on these legs and like everyone I mean, I've everyone's had drums from like even like the 90s or the 80s We're like you're playing you're playing you're playing boom The wingnut gives out on the floor tom and it slides to one side or it just falls down This probably has 20 pounds maybe more of stuff I mean, you'd have to crank this thing down Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. I mean their their hardware was very very strong. They're known for that. Yeah um, the one other thing in that same 51 catalog for rogers is they did offer Uh, a set called the showcase outfit Which basically was a full drum kit with a 20 inch kick and a 12 and 13 inch tom and 16 inch kick drum and 14 inch snare drum But it included all that hardware on the floor tom and the upward hitting kick pedal So that you could take you could have your full kit if you needed it If you had a small little gig and you wanted the small kit You could just take the pieces that made the park lane outfit Wow, so it was one of the first kind of Modular a full kit that's designed to be modular and taken apart and used as a smaller kit when you need it Yeah, and it's it's neat too. Um that you have You know, uh, you can click you you've Included the various pages that have cocktail related stuff that you can you can buy just the upward You know hitting bass drum pedal on its own Um How does that I've never actually really looked at one. How does that technology work? Is it basically just the It's just flipped. You know what I mean like the The the spring pulls it up basically Yeah, I mean really all all you really need to do Is let let's just talk strap because that's the easiest thing to to picture You know the strap comes around the front of the pedal And when you push down on the pedal it pulls the strap which pulls the beater forward and into the bass drum head Well, if you take that strap and go behind The other direction and connect it When you push down on the pedal it's going to pull back towards you So you you have to move the beater so that it's uh, you know below horizontal So that it's going to go up Got it and and hit the bottom head interesting. Um, yeah, there's actually, uh, at least one article on my site for converting um One I think there's two actually. I think there's a dw conversion article that a friend Put together there and then there's one that I did for just kind of a cheap Pedal just to show people how how they can do it. Yeah, that's neat Depending on the pedal. It's it's pretty easy to do. Yeah, it's cool I love in the rogers stuff where like looking at the the one the page with the showcase outfit how it's camco pedals It's just neat to see You know, so much different history going on on there. Um, yeah on that so Cool. Okay. Then where do we go from there? Yeah, so then um four years later? 1955 singerlin's next catalog has the new in quotes two headed cocktail drum And this is to me. This is the first Full on What what I view as the basic cocktail drum. So it's a in their case. It's a 14 inch drum bottom head and a top head sitting on legs like a floor tom, but it's 20 I think this one was 24 inches tall And it has the snare the half snare mechanism on the inside And it has an upbeat pedal in 55. They were still using the group of reversible pedal Yeah for that. Um, and then there's a bracket sort of a u-shaped bracket that connects on to the legs Uh below that you can then clamp down your your bass drum pedal too Cool. Um, so again to me that is really That that's the fundamental cocktail drum, but people are welcome to to differ. Yeah one now. Do you put I think I've always wondered this. Do you put in the cocktail drum? Um, do you put like a little pillow or anything to muffle on the bottom? It it really depends. Um, I've seen Everything from some people put packing peanuts in the drum So they just rest on top of the bottom head and then they poof, you know It gives it a little sustain while they float and come back down um the uh The yamaha club jordan, which is a modern instrument a lot of people use zero rings and things like that on the inside Of course, you know, now we have all these heads that that have built-in muffling. Sure. Um all the mad Yeah Heads and yeah on my particular drum So I I mostly play this drum that we're talking about right now the slingerland two-headed cocktail drum 14 inch That that's my main instrument. I have a couple of those and over the years. I've had a few few others cool But that that's to me. That's the perfect size. Um Ludwig made a lot of 16 inch ones Which are just a little too big and flappy and low for for my taste for the music that I've been doing on them um But for mine I actually spent a long time trying to get the sound right and you know, it so I'll take a little Detour here. Um, you know, these ones also do not have any sort of baffling in the middle Some of the dredge ones and some of the ludwig ones did have an actual baffle in the middle Usually up closer to the top so that you'd get this sort of smaller airspace for the snare piece And a larger airspace for the bass piece Uh, I think they were just trying to stop the snare rattling when you hit the bass drum Because on mine it's a single column of air. So there's just there's no way to avoid it when you hit the kick drum The snare is going to rattle. Yeah, sure. And and if you put on the same heads, you know Starting point for most people coated ambassador and tune them about the same It sounds great as a single drum But it doesn't really sound like a good bass drum or a good snare drum And it's very messy, you know, if you turn the snares on and you hit it It just rings and you know, it's cool if you're looking for a weird sound effect It's actually very cool and it it can work for the right thing But I was looking for something which would function a little more just as like a kick and a snare so I ended up putting a power stroke three on the bottom And loading it up with duct tape and paper towels like adding as much mass as I possibly could And Tune it down as low as I could while still having a tone I ended up having to put lug locks on it because the lugs would just fall out by the You know halfway through the gig. Yeah And then the top I would put a diplomat on it, you know the thinnest rear head And crank it and by making them very very distinct tunings and head types It really separated out the sound The diplomat still if I wanted if I did a rim shot really close the edge You still get some ring the snare actually sounds really good Like that, but the kick drum still has a lot of oomph and Not not the loudest kick, but you put a mic on it and it sounds amazing I did a lot of shows where I'd show up, you know, I used to tour with it actually With a singer-songwriter And I would show up and the sound guys would kind of snicker And then they I'd be like look trust me just put some mics on it and You know once once they put it through the mixer It sounded great. That's awesome. You got a good feedback on that Yeah, and it's um, I just think in general with with you in modern times and going back to You know anytime in the 50s going into the 60s like It's just unique like it makes you stand out get it because you're standing. Um, uh, but On the cocktail kit. No, but it it's really unique. Um, so would you say that that's more than you know with The carlton kit in 48 where you're in the pit and it's you know, space saving How much of it is you love the sound of it and not you but just in general versus It's just a very unique cool way to play the drums standing up. Do you think like is it? Yeah, yeah, well, I think it's a it you know, sort of different for each person Um, the thing that I really love about it is I feel like I found my sound on it And it it is an instrument that you have to work To get the right sound that's going to work for you, you know, I've had people come in They're like, oh cocktail drum cool and like rock drummers and they just stop on the pedal and they smack the top and they're like That sounds horrible. Why would you ever want to do that? And it's not for that, you know, it's for very quiet music You know again in new york singer songwriters playing in a small club You can play in a cafe and Actually lay into it and it and it feels good and it sounds good and it's not overwhelming Um, you know for again, like so I for years I played in this band cocktail angst Which you and I were talking about before. Um really fun band, um Playing a lot of kind of high energy latin lounge jazz Stuff very humorous thing but a lot a lot of virtuosic Stuff in it and when that band started I was just playing a regular drum kit And I found the cocktail drum in at this place Out in brooklyn down near coney island. Um, actually this really funny guy Anyone who's in brooklyn, they might know david covens And he runs this place called the school of musical performance on king's highway in brooklyn And he's been playing drums forever And he just has this space That has rooms and rooms and rooms filled with drums and hardware And gear and all this stuff and he's a really nice guy and you know, he had one sitting around and I was The price was right and I said, okay, you know gotta have it I'd seen them before the first time I ever saw one was uh, matt wilson Well known jazz drummer he and I were in boston at the same time and we would Playing groups on the the same shows, you know, of course the night and I saw him playing with a duo set with charlie cole haze On the cocktail drum and I was so fascinated by it and he did such amazing things on it So it always stuck with me. I was like, that's so cool. Oh, yeah And when I had the opportunity to get one, I just had to do it and I just started playing in this band cocktail link. So Um, I remember the first time I brought it into rehearsal. I did not know how to tune it I didn't have it set up. I said guys. This is a cool thing. Trust me Help help help me grow through this. You know, just put up with this for a while And I just remember after that first rehearsal everyone was like, yeah, that's kind of interesting And I just very very non-plus that I was suddenly doing this weird thing And you know, I didn't have an open hi hat and I had one simple and it all just sounded very clangy and um, but over time, you know I added a cowbell. I added some remote kids bongos which sound amazing with the right sticks I found like just the right symbol a little 12 inch symbol perfect for crashing ride and And that became the sound of the band. Cool. Yeah, so it really really worked out great but You know, I think that's what most people find is they have to really work on it and figure out how it fits in To the music that they play and the way they play the drums and what they want to get out of it Yeah, man, that's uh That's a great answer because I mean, I guess it it becomes a part of you and it's just Are you more comfortable on a cocktail kit now than like when you sit on a regular drum set? I'm sure you were great on a regular drum set too, but do you prefer the cocktail? Yeah, uh, no No, I play much more regular kit. I mean, I I used to gig out several nights a week on the cocktail drum And you know, I I was really In shape on it It is tiring because you are largely standing on one leg You know kind of holding up your your bass drum leg again. Everyone has a different technique. Yeah Um, it it can be hard on your leg. It can be hard on your back a bit Um, nice thing with cocktail lengths was I didn't always have to play the bass drum Was tough. So if I got tired I could actually kind of dance in place and just play the cowbell on the bongo And the snare and do stuff. Sure. Um, because we we used to do, you know, four or five hour nights Playing and that's a lot. Yeah one set on the cocktail drum is is not hard But doing doing long nights of stuff it can get exhausting. You read my mind on a question there about Um, I was going to say are you typically playing these heel down? Because of the whole balance thing I mean, or is it kind of like you said you you're lifting your foot up or you're here, you know what I mean Like how does the bass drum work? Yeah, well for the most part I would say again, I play relatively quiet um, you know, I I feel like I have the sounds Right so that at the dynamic that I play they sound really good and they they have impact And if I need reinforcement, I'll just mic them rather than try and play a lot louder. Yeah So from that perspective, you know, my left foot is usually planted on the ground My right heel is usually Down and planted so that way I have like a nice solid position to play from and then On the kick drum you can actually be very dynamic with it. So If it's just something straightforward I'll just play heel down if I need to do a lot of doubles I can just lift the heel up just enough and just balance back on my other foot And and do that when I need to but again, you you just end up shifting around just to to save yourself the pain Of uh, yeah standing on the one leg. Well, I've actually at times I've I've literally switched feet and played the kick with my left foot If uh, things were getting too painful I can tell you right now from being in a cast in a boot with the killie's tendon rupture and having surgery of like Totally not drum related actually the farthest thing from drum related because I can't play the drums right now But like where you're standing You're not putting all your weight on one foot. It starts to just kill your other foot And then you have to shift and it's just so so I I feel your pain With that but All right, let's hop back into the history here. Obviously. Um, so I think we were towards the end of the 50s there. So what happens then in the 60s? Yeah, so, um 55 I'll just mention that um gretch got into the market as well They they came out with a single headed cocktail drum. They actually called it a cocktail drum also So obviously sometime in in the early 50s someone started calling these things cocktail drums But gretch had offered a single headed and a double headed cocktail drum with a pedal They had their own a beat pedal mechanism Those ones also came with a little tom on the side So the snare was built in To the main drum, but they did have a little Uh, eight inch tom on the side Um, so just variations on the same thing Uh in 59 uh cocktail Sorry Ludwig offered a cocktail lounge drum That's what they called it. It was another single headed Tall drum. So that was the first time we saw that from Ludwig and it had this snare mechanism in it um, they also Ludwig came out with this one. They called the los vegas club drum And that was a 16 inch double headed cocktail drum So again a tall drum, but it was 16 inches in diameter And it had a snare mount That attached to the side of this 16 inch standing drum and held a 13 inch snare So um, again, that was their sort of version of of things Ludwig also in that same year 59 came out with the speed master pedal, which was also reversible It's a much simpler pedal you actually the uh It has a leather strap and it attaches to a post and all you do is Undo the wing nut for the post pull it out and flip it around to the other side of the pedal and put it in You you can reverse those things in five seconds Um, they're they're not the strongest pedals there, but they're You know, they're easy easy to play and lightweight good good for carrying around. I love the um On your website again, I love the los vegas club the Ludwig the page for the ad here where it's just like los vegas And it's kind of glowing and there's like the the outline of a woman standing up playing wearing a dress Um, and just to read this here It says with like the little kind of description next to it says with this complete drum set You can stand up and play ideal for entertainers singers comedians and master of ceremonies Full snare drum and hi-hat effects plus ride cymbal holder and bass drum beat cymbal is not included in the price but extra According to selection. That's interesting because yeah, I mean, I guess if you're a singer or a comedian I can't really imagine a comedian like You know here i'm i'm here to do some comedy. Let me bring my cocktail drum set But that's an interesting take on it, you know Well, if if if someone wants to do their own but up, you know, I I bet you somebody did that Yeah, um, yeah that it really interesting thing in the in the fifties. I've seen a lot of pictures Um, and again, there's a bunch on the site. There there's actually a photo gallery That has a bunch of things in there as well But there uh, there's one person there lin page I believe her name is that uh, one of the people you know members of the community Sent me these pictures and he's like, this is my mom. She was a singer a lounge singer And she played with these little combos and the pictures of the band and her and she's holding sticks And there's a cocktail drum in front of her and she told them like yeah I used to play the cocktail drum and you know would do jam sessions and these things and I I think that um, a lot of people Would have these little combos, you know say You know piano bass and a singer And they just say well, can you play some drums here to have a cocktail drum? It's not too loud and it looks cool and it adds a little percussion That's what's going on. So I think there there was a lot of that as well and certainly the the showiness of it I think was was a real attraction for for people. Yeah Yeah, um, you know I'll mention that the so there was the school of musical performance where I got my first cocktail drum And then later he had another one because he knew I was into the cocktail drums So he let me know and there was a store two blocks away from him Where I got another one basically a mint gold sparkle slingerland kit and Basically after talking with a bunch of the guys down there They just said yeah, you know They were blocks away from cony island and they said all the hawkers in cony island would have these things For that, you know step right up pop You know or and you know, they they don't have stages there. They don't have back stages They just have these little planks to stand on so it was kind of the ideal thing You know way to kind of spice things up make a little bit of noise and try and attract people to your booth That's so cool. That makes perfect sense. That's that's the kind of stuff that I love with this of like, you know Yes, it's cool. I love going through the catalogs, but I like hearing about the people who would be using them You know out on the street and the purpose of having this like kind of fold up all in one drum set which You know portability is a big thing which goes back You know to the beginning of the drum set where guys are jumping on street cars and they're the the collapsible bass drums and all that stuff there's there's been a quest for I feel like it's kind of died down a little bit now where it's not as important because you're not being like, you know in a horse-drawn carriage or something but like Where portability is huge with this stuff Yeah, I've definitely carried my cocktail drum to a gig on the subway many many many times It's awesome. Um, and if it if it's the basic setup just the drum and a symbol I can carry it You know, I used to live about eight blocks from the subway station. I could carry it. No problem With cocktail angst. I had all the extra stuff. So I just have a little hand dolly And you know saved myself that pain and But not not too bad. No, you know another benefit. Okay. So yeah, so that's the 50s, right? Yeah. Yeah Um, yeah, you know, I can I can blast through the rest because so things didn't change too much after this point except Uh, there was one new addition And let's see. Uh, it was in 63 Both slingerland and Ludwig and and this was not in their 62 catalogs Uh, but in 63 both slingerland and Ludwig came out with drums that were a small bass drum Which instead of a tom they had a mount with a snare basket And a snare on top. So it was a separate kick drum and snare drum But the snare drum basket was mounted on top of the kick drum Hmm. Uh, the slingerland was a 16 by 16 kick Obviously built out of a floor tom with a 14 inch snare And the Ludwig one called the gold coast was an 18 inch kick with a 13 inch snare on top Man, that's so cool. I think that's so Genius and you explained it really well just to like in case someone out there is is not on the website or looking So basically just imagine your regular bass drum and then where your tom mount is which I imagine it's basically the same size you could probably use this bass drum and switch it out and um Put a time mount in but okay, so your bass drum and then You know where you're the hole for your tom mount there's just a you know a portion of a snare stand coming out of it and the snare is On top of the bass drum all connected. Um Which is such a cool idea Um, I guess there's no real do you see that there's a benefit to having one way or the other or is Are they both kind of unique in their own way? Yeah Well, I think I think they did this because some people probably were getting frustrated that they couldn't make The single drum sound like a separate kick drum and a snare drum You know and and this way they at least could do that You really had the two separate instruments But it still was designed to take up a relatively small amount of space and and to be played standing up Yeah The mount was pulled forward towards the drummer just so that the snare could be close enough to be played standing up Yeah, it's also interesting to note that in 63 Both Ludwig and slingerland came out with basically the same technology Where they have historically like a feud of like It's this battle between the two of them of like, you know The age old story of like sneaking into the garbage and stealing stuff to see what they were working on So kind of interesting how like You know in the same year they came out with this same technology Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure it was highly competitive. You know, I think all these things Kind of took because someone said oh, well that could be cool. We should get in on that before it explodes But I really don't know how much cocktail drums exploded You know, I think there were a lot out there again. I think they were mostly show pieces And you know, probably we were used for exactly that, you know, I bet a lot of Small lounges just had them there, you know, just like now everybody's got a You know a cheap pearl kit at their club. Sure, you know, they probably just had a drum a cocktail drum there just in case Yeah, for whoever was showing up to to use it. Absolutely. And and this is another one of those things where You know, I'll say it, but I don't know. I can't remember the exact Ah god, I feel like I can't remember where I saw it. Um a vintage Japanese cocktail drum that I think was Oh here. I found it right here just looking. Um it was the Midget, which again is not the greatest word to use but um cocktail drum kit. I guess that was uh King's stone starfield drums from in the 1970s. I'm seeing this on star dash drums dot de Yeah, certainly, you know, there there were so many, uh, Japanese companies that were basically making the identical products as As all the american companies. So yeah, they're definitely I've seen several cocktail drums from the japanese manufacturers from the 60s Yeah, cool. Of course they uh Which is just cool because again, you know, if you can't afford the Ludwig, you could buy this and even even today It's like these are probably more expensive than your average, you know MIJ drum set because they're they're more rare, but um, I mean, you know, it's still It's a different era of wood Even if it wasn't the same quality as some of the american stuff The the quality of the wood and the craftsmanship is often phenomenal compared to what you get for the same price today Sure, absolutely Okay, so um, I like how you said before which is interesting about how in the 60s not much changed after that Which kind of like this is another theme that happens on the show too where you kind of hit like The 80s or something and it's like well, that's pretty much when it stopped changing but um, so they're they're obviously included In catalogs like it's still like a A staple of drum catalogs what looks like for the next couple in the next decade or so, right? They're still relatively popular Uh, I think uh, I mean, well, sorry. I may have to actually look but uh, I believe 63 was the last appearance Of the cocktail drum in the Slingerland and Ludwig catalogs It certainly was around that basically the the way I always describe it is by the 70s Nobody wanted these things Um, yeah, here we go. I have I'm I'm sorry. There's a 73 um, so Slingerland and there's 73 was the last catalog with with cocktail drums and they had both the Uh, the cocktail outfit that one's called number 286 That's the one with the 16 inch kick and the snare drum on top And then they did have the regular 14 inch drum With the the uh upward hitting pedal and they still had the single headed cocktail drum at that point, too Yeah, um, but yeah 73 Gretch 70 Was the last catalog that they had So, you know, I think by the By the 70s, they really were dying out, you know rock and roll was becoming king These were not sexy rock and roll drums. They were small weird flat sounding Uh weirdo drums Yeah, and and uh, you know, they're I think people probably still associated them with like lounge jazz, which was was quickly losing steam Yeah, but that's where so i'm kind of just like thinking now like so obviously the term cocktail comes from that like lounge jazz like Uh, los vegas, you know performers like standing up kind of playing That's where that cocktail Term uh for the drum set comes from and I know you said it just sort of like it caught on and it popularized and that became the name just probably in like the culture of like You know, yeah, grab the grab the cocktail drums. Some one guy probably said it and it probably spread but um Right that makes sense that that That name went with that style, which like you said kind of went away Yeah, yeah, and I think you know, I think it was a small drum for playing in a small cocktail lounge Where you couldn't bring in a full big kit. It was a small small combo playing quietly So it was kind of the perfect thing. I mean these days I I see people calling a lot of the mini kits cocktail drums For that same reason it's just a small kit for playing at a cocktail party or in a cocktail lounge And maybe it's a small kit with a 16 inch bass drum or something and Yeah, but but not what not what I would call a cocktail drum. I was thinking of it as kind of a A thing. Yeah, like you have to stand up. I would agree where I've seen it where it's like like Like that's like almost like a club Kit or something but like let's keep cocktail drums, you know, what they should be this is our our call to action of Call it what it is, but um All right, and then this is uh like Side note. So there was a while where I was like In I forget I didn't I had no reason to have it. I was playing in bands and stuff But I had no reason to have it but I know and they may not even um Make it anymore, but I know groove percussion um which I think was like I think I was looking at it on like on walmart's website or something, but I'm sure it's not very nice But I know you can get a gp, you know groove percussion cocktail kit for like 300 bucks, which yep I know that that's not the most that's like us being like, you know go buy like a Percussion plus kit or whatever, you know, just like a no brand name drum set, but Kind of cool that you can get a cocktail kit for that cheap. Yeah, no, absolutely And I think that's basically, you know, how cocktail drums started coming back, you know in the 90s You know drum and bass jungle music, you know, people were really starting to do mini kits And figuring out how to get really good sounds out of small drums And I think just some of the people out there remembered the cocktail drum and said, hey, you know, this is basically the same thing And uh, yeah, they're you know, there are a few of the cheaper ones gp hb hb drums I mean even tricks and although this came a little bit later But the tricks and ones are actually surprisingly well made for the price They're not too expensive You know, the big one that came out was the yamaha club jordan Which I was trying to find the year. I think it was 2011 that that one really came out And that is a full full out pro beautifully made instrument Yeah, and they had the the snare on the side, you know, they had the little eight inch popcorn snare And a 10 inch tom and then a lot of companies just took that model and ran with it So I think that's what the tricks and is based on Then a bunch of the custom drum makers got into it as well Stoffer and treehouse drums This guy billy blast makes a bunch C and c I know that you hadn't been interviewed with a dune They they made a really beautiful stainless single drum Cool. Yeah And you see a lot of like like I'm looking at the tama cocktail jam. You see a lot of them now where like I feel like like, you know The rules have gone out the window like you can they can look however they want like They're very modular and the hardware has gone to the point where they're like divided up and um I feel like k hones are a very hot topic in the drum world where some people love them and some people hate them But like where you could incorporate a k hone with like a pedal that's almost like a remote pedal that's going over here and playing it um, so it's um It's really the the an exciting time for the world of like, you know, stand up drum kits. It's kind of cool Yeah, absolutely. And and you know, the I at this point I would call the you know the the tama cocktail jam. I could call that a cocktail drums It has the upward hitting pedal Yeah, you know, those are the two the two things to me is that the A pedal is hitting the bottom of a drum And or you're standing up to play it. Um, you know, the those two things I just call those ones floor tom bass cocktail drums And it's basically, you know, I mean, it's what's funny is it's basically the rogers park lane That that's what they've done. They've modernized the rogers park lane, which is from 1951, which is crazy You know, here it is 60 plus years later and and they're just Kind of doing the same thing just but with improved hardware and you know, they have they have a Gap, you know air gap in the middle, which I think helps the sound of the bass drum. Yeah Yeah, definitely, but yeah, there there were a bunch. So, you know, right around 2000 I think the mini kit thing started spilling over into people experimenting with the cocktail drum Things, um, a real quick rundown of, you know, was there slingerland, which, you know, at that point, they were a completely different company They were making terrible Stuff through the 70s 80s 80s really 80s 90s 2000s Um, so they weren't great quality, but they made a kit called the slingerland espresso Which was based on a 16 inch floor tom same thing hanging off a small snare a small tom And cymbals with an upward hitting pedal Piece manhattan kit came out That one was the same basic concept except they they sort of designed it So that the snare would stack on top of the floor tom So you were you were still playing a vertical drum, but it was still physically two separate drums And actually one of the duned stainless drums is like that too. They they actually rest the snare on top of The kick drum. Oh, that's cool Um, and then I think I mentioned the kicks in Trixon, which is like the club Jordan The yamaha club Jordan, which the the one cool thing about that is they made it a 15 inch main drum Which I appreciated Because that sort of split the difference Between this what what feels to me is oversized 16 inch tall main drum But it gave a little more umph than a 14 inch, especially If you're using it as a floor tom and a kick drum If you're not doing the snare Sure, man, I'm like I'm like I didn't I mean It's crazy because I've done this show now for something, but I didn't know Trixon was still making drums as a company Yeah, I think it's still a different company It's just the name maybe like because I know vox and they have the new like speed fire kit I think that's the right one. I'm thinking of but um, yeah Okay, interesting. Yeah, I think I think My memory was that there's a music store in wisconsin lops music Which actually used to play a lot with one of the lops sons in boston Um, and I believe that they own the trademark for Trixon I feel like it was something like that and that they started manufacturing Through a third party under the Trixon name, but but they are well made drums You know and again the price point is pretty amazing if you're looking just to get a cocktail drum to get into it They're they're very well made for the price. Yeah, like four four forty is the price of most of them So I would buy that before I bought a gp. No offense gp, but no, but I mean that's again Like I always say if you have a groove percussion kit, that's great. You do you they're awesome to get you playing the drums But these I mean Trixon has so much history groove percussion wasn't around in the you know 60s and Yeah, so And you'll just end up replacing the hardware on the gp stuff. Exactly. That's that's the main thing You'll you'll first thing you'll do is buy new heads and then after six months to a year You're going to want to replace your hardware. So you can avoid some of that if you throw it out for Trixon. Yeah Man, okay We're we're up to the modern stuff. I learned something new. I learned Trixon is still a company and on their website They have kind of digital snowflakes falling the entire times you're on their website, which is interesting. You don't that's not Uh, that's funny. You don't see that too often on modern websites, but um, yeah Yeah, okay so John now at this kind of if there's anything else throw it in there any cool stories But I'd love to maybe at this point usually we kind of say What are you up to? I know it's coveted. So you're probably up to nothing like the rest of us, but um You know, what's going on with you? Gig wise, you know, all that good stuff. Where can people find you that thing? Yeah, um, so gig wise it's yes, it's very slow. Um, I actually live in southern Maine now I'm in south berwick, Maine, which is near Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Um moved up here a couple years ago From brooklyn and uh, there's an amazing bunch of musicians up here. So You know, we are Still actively working on music and occasionally playing. Um, recently been subbing With this band called the the soggy po boys, which is kind of a new Orleans Jazz slash second line band and really phenomenal and actually at the last gig I told them I was like next time I'm bringing the cocktail drum because I think it's the perfect band for that actually Cool. Um, so Next time I sub with them, I will hopefully be doing it on cocktail drum. Nice Um, I also play in an instrumental heavy metal band called bassoon Like the instrument and we're actually just finishing up, um, our latest recording and some video stuff. So that should be uh Coming out early this next year Um, very very math heavy not cocktail drum oriented at all It's just funny to think of like a double bass pedal on a cocktail kit and just literally losing your balance and just Being able to stand up. Yeah, I've been trying to figure out how how to do it, but uh, you know That's gonna take a little bit of time. Yeah, that'll take some thinking. Um, yeah, um, but yeah, I also lead a uh Benny Goodman swing band called flying home. Cool. Um, I do a lot of music and drum transcription as well so that that's one of my Kind of passion projects, you know, I just started transcribing the music because I love it and then Had so many charts. I got friends together and we formed a band. So that's awesome You know when non-covid times were usually pretty active in the area and then and then just some more experimental jazz Ish stuff. Um, I mean a band called shaman denominator. It's a trio with drums upright bass and then a uh trumpet player keyboard player See that sounds like the metal band shaman denominator. I mean versus bassoon sounds Right It's more more of yeah, but shaman shaman is uh We we do all kinds of stuff. I mean we play some standards a lot of originals. We do interpretations of balobar talk material and eric sati and stuff like that. So it's And some free improvisation stuff. Cool. And then also just played singer songwriters. I mean, I play bass as well My wife, uh, laura cromwell plays drums in a band with our friend Monica Cohen who in a band called sifter Nice and that's more like singer songwriter stuff and Um, so that's not a drum thing, but laura's a great drummer. So that's awesome love hearing her Yeah, you got to shout the wife out, especially if she's a drummer. Um, oh, yeah, yeah No, I'll tell you my I'll tell you my early story because before we were going out We we were you know, both drummers we played a lot at the knitting factory in in new york So we knew each other but not all that well and I got the call from laura saying Hey, so i'm doing some gigs in the subway and I hear you have a cocktail drum You think you think I gotta borrow that and of course, I'm you know being Incredibly protective and precious going well, it's a vintage and I don't really like taking it out Of course, I've never lived that one down Now fortunately, they still worked out and she can use my cocktail drum anytime she wants Exactly that's why she married you right right. She had to marry me first use Good very sneaky Yeah, uh, hey, I wanted if I can take a minute to just to give a shout out to People who I consider are sort of important in In my mind in the cocktail cocktail world, um You know again my my Perception of the cocktail drum is it's just a weirdo instrument That you know, maybe had its moment in the sun as a weird gimmick But I feel like over time people have really embraced it as a strange Experimental instrument and I think there are a lot of people who are trying to do it That probably didn't know what a cocktail drum was so a few quick examples are A drummer named ross barber He was the drummer and one of the singers in a band called the four freshmen Which was a male vocal group in the 50s and he would perform he had this weird Custom rack it almost looked like the bass of a desk with a tabletop taken off But it just had a snare drum and two cymbals But he would stand up and play this thing and sing Um, so again just just experimental drum setup. It was like I see it I'm like this guy had the first drum rack. Yeah, that's basically what it was um Other people mo Tucker from the velvet underground, you know, she had her kick drum flipped on its side And played it with her hand. She didn't use her foot I mean she she could and sometimes she would but a lot of times she would just play the kit And just play a bass drum with her hand That's um, I think she would sit but I'll still give it to her because that was a really cool thing to do Sure um Bill Conway Was a drummer in a band called treat her right and then which later became morphine Um, he had a Ludwig cocktail drum I think was a 16 and he played that exclusively and treat her right for a while And then he did play it on some some morphine tracks as well I don't know if you're familiar with that band, but they're an amazing band out of boston in in the 80s and 90s well morphine was in the 90s and um But he did play the cocktail kit in treat her right. There's some videos out there of him playing it Um, cool very very cool and he got he had the thing sounding great I actually emailed with him a bunch when I first started the website and he was really really great guy really nice Um, also slim jim phantom from the stray cats Right, he kick and snare and a couple of cymbals and I think later he threw hi-hat on the side But you know, he he was doing it. He basically made his own version of the You know Ludwig gold coast. Yeah and did that um He's who I think of a lot too with it in that world and it it just kind of like It's one of those things where like you said we're like it just fits perfectly and it's really a part of the sound Uh, like kind of that rockabilly sound. It's kind of jangly and like it just it fits really well Yeah, and and those guys I mean they they just broke everything because everyone was in hair bands, you know Like at that point their metal was the was king and here these guys doing rockabilly and a weird guy standing up playing kick snare and a symbol It was pretty pretty impressive um Yeah, there's another band from canada called moxie fruvas that was around for the 90s And he uh, I don't know how to pronounce his name ian jian the j Gomeshi, uh, he was the lead singer and played the drums And he had a kick drum with a snare basket mount on top. I I don't think it was A traditional, you know gold coast, but I think he just made his own That's cool. So anyway, he was doing that There's a woman uh fuzuki who played in a band x girl kind of a japanese punk band I I don't know check them out. They're really amazing. And and she played just flor tom and snare So it was all with sticks But she stood and played flor tom and snare and and just played the hell out of it. It was really really great um Yeah, and then more traditional people bernie dressel played with a bryan setser band And he played a dw cocktail kit Kind of like the club jordan, you know, I think he did that kind of as a tribute to the stray cats standing thing Yeah, but uh, he's phenomenal drummer and you know really Played that thing beautifully um, steve jordan who helped design the yamaha club jordan Uh, he was playing the club jordan with the john mire trio. There's a bunch of videos of that as well And then you'll you'll see him on all sorts of things playing that And then the last one who did a project with that that I know was peter erskine He had a band called the lounge art ensemble and the the first record he used the club jordan I think after that he went back to a A traditional set But that was a cool thing. Yeah, and then and then you just see them people do little cameos with them There's a video out there with mick fleetwood playing a Club jordan. There's a club jordan in uh, awesome the first awesome powers movie Really? With burp back rack. Oh, yeah, he's playing That's awesome. Like on the top of the uh, double decker bus kind of thing there Yeah, I think they're on a street for that scene that has the cocktail drum, but There's a guy dan hicks and the hotlicks who've been around forever He that was a funny one because he actually rented my cocktail drum Because they were on the conan o' brian show And I got this weird call from his manager saying hey, can we rent your cocktail drum? We we really want to use it That's awesome He did but uh, I thought that was very uh Innovative of him because it was kind of pre pre all the other cocktail drums He just thought it was a cool thing to have out front Yeah, man, you know, what's what's old is new and i'm sure they'll go through more Iterations and changes and stuff. They're they're always there in the you know Like I said earlier, like there's always you know, most companies have them like yeah, you can get a cocktail kit Like it's like yeah, it's on page 10 of the catalog and like the 60s. It's like they're we we offer them like you Why not? You know someone wants them and um It's just so cool. Um Yeah, absolutely And I think someone like you who's doing a great uh service to them by again having this website and uh spreading the knowledge Like this is just uh, it's what it's all about and this is one of those things. We're like, I don't know why Like I have a list of episodes it sometimes it takes me a while just to be like, all right. Oh, yeah Let me do the cocktail one. I googled it and within Five minutes. I was like, oh I think this is the guy to talk to cocktail drum com I think john might be who I want so um, well, and I I really you know, it's a communal effort I started that website Because I suddenly had a cocktail drum and there was no information about them anywhere So my my first page had a picture of a cocktail drum and it just said Hey, if you know anything about these please email me so I can build up a source of information You know on on the website and over time over many years, you know, people joined in jumped in Set me pictures, you know catalog scans stories help make some of the articles about things The site is long overdue for an overhaul But but the info is there and it's good and you know, hopefully people are enjoying it Yeah, I mean that's that's the cool thing is like history like you have very um It's very like factual history of like this is the catalog This is the next thing where it's not like some crazy story or something being being thrown out there So it's not like the history is going to change but people can just add on to it. So Hey, I mean if people out there listening know something different about cocktail drums go to cocktail drum com And um, check it out and john's info is on there And I'm sure you'd be happy to work with you and talk and add info to his website and all that good stuff Yeah, please drop me a line. I have a player's page for I post links to people who are actively playing cocktail drums and things like that So check that out because there are a lot of guys in europe that are doing a lot of rockabilly guys In europe in particular Really love the cocktail drums Cool. All right, john. Well, um on that note. I think that's a great Ending to the episode so again people can check out cocktail drum com and it's john metham Who is the uh the kind of the cocktail drum man? Um, so John thank you for taking the time to be on the show with us and uh sharing your knowledge That's my pleasure. Thank you so much If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a gwin sound podcast