 Hello everyone, welcome to today's Fish Night event on gender equality in the seafood value chain. My name is Julia Tunstall, I'm the external events officer for the International Institute for Environment and Development and I'm going to be providing some tech support during this session. Today's event is part of our Fish Night series that aims to create a space for sharing lessons and experiences and to inspire change and to create fisheries that work today and into the future. Okay and with that I'm really pleased to hand over to Christina Pizza who is a principal researcher and team lead in IID shaping sustainable markets research group and is also the moderator for today's session. Christina over to you please. Hi, hello everyone and welcome to the Seven Fish Nights where we will discuss gender equality in the seafood value chain. This is the first IID online Fish Nights. The Fish Nights used to take place in IID headquarters in London and bring together people from academia, government and NGOs and more to discuss issues of fisheries, aquaculture and ocean governance. In the current situation we brought the Fish Nights online and changed the timetables so this event is not exactly a Fish Night everywhere. It's mostly a fish morning in America, afternoons in Europe and Africa and Fish Night in Asia. There are advantages to this though, we can reach a wider public by doing it online. At this Fish Night on International Women's Day we brought together four women engaged in seafood value chain in Africa, Asia, Europe and Latin America to discuss the importance of women in the seafood industry, the impacts and challenges women face and how gender equality can be championed. Women play an important role especially in small-scale fisheries around the world. They represent around half of the 108 million people working small-scale fisheries worldwide, that means around 50 million people. The post harvest handling, processing, selling, packaging and marketing of seafood, this is all mostly done by women. Yet the seafood industry is characterized by a pervasive gender inequalities where women are still mostly ignored and invisible. With the United Nations declaration of 2022 as the international year over teasing of fisheries and aquaculture and the lead up to this year we aim to kind of explore how to raise the profile of women, how to ensure gender equality and what commitments we need to take to put the women in the agenda. Our speakers will provide insights and experience on their work with women and I am happy to introduce Eddie Trudis Lukanga. Eddie Trudis is the co-founder and executive director of a local NGO in Tanzania. Eddie Trudis has also established the Tanzania Women's Fish Worker's Association. She's also the co-founder and secretary general of the African Women's Fish Processes and Traders Network which brings together members from several African countries. Next we have Kiyoko Kusakabi. Kiyoko is a professor of gender and development studies in the School of Environment Resources and Development in the Asian Institute of Technology in Thailand. Kiyoko has been researching and teaching gender and development in Asia for over 20 years. Next again I would like to introduce Madeline Gustafson. Madeline is a researcher in the Institute for Rural and Regional Research in Norway. Her research focused mostly in fisheries, coastal communities, gender and relations and identities. Madeline was recently the PI of a project focused on women and fishes in the UK. And last but not least we have Bertha Martínez Villalobos. Bertha has been working for more than 30 years in seafood processing. She's a business entrepreneur with expertise in product development, marketing, research and finance in Mexico. Nice. Welcome to all of you ladies and to start the event and may I start by asking you all of you to tell us a little bit about yourselves and how did you get working with the women in the seafood? What was your journey? How did you get here? Some experiences that you would like to share with us. Kiyoko, would you like to start? Thank you very much for inviting me to join this very exciting webinar. I'm quite nervous to be with this very excellent woman. I myself am a researcher. I'm an academic. So I do research. My core issue is about women in the informal employment. So fish vendors are also part of the core, the informal employment that I was looking at. And that's how I got to know that in fisheries, fish vendors were not really considered as part of the whole fishing ecosystem. So that's where I got so very interested in how a woman in the gender issues in fisheries or women's visibility in fisheries are how is it hidden and then why how actually how women are contributing. So that's how I came in. Thank you. Bertha, would you like to go next? Yeah, thank you for inviting me and I am you know very excited to be with the woman and you know this part of the war because as Kiyoko said, the woman is in the fishes and impossible. In my knowledge, my expertise is in a fish process, fish products. But also I work with the woman to import employment, employment the woman is part of my job. And I'm very, very happy that we can be together because I know if we are together, we can do something and we have more ideas how to do it for all the people because when the woman is taking the power of I mean it is visible and then the government can see the woman and they can do the law and things for be better. Of course, the society is going to be better and then I am very happy to be with you. Thank you. Thank you. Madeleine, do you want to go next? Yeah, thanks. I'm also a researcher similar to Kiyoko and I think I've got similar things to say actually. So I started, I suppose I got into this field of work because I was doing a project with fishing communities basically and I started speaking to women in the industry and especially in fishing families and I quite quickly realized that you know we know very little about the important work that they are doing in this space. So yeah, then come you know from that experience I decided to develop a project looking more closely at that and that was the the women and fisheries project that focused on the UK context specifically but I think also I just wanted to say I'm also someone that is myself personally quite emotionally attached to the sea and sort of things like this and I think that helps that you know you have a link to that kind of environment from your own perspective if that makes sense. So yeah, that's what I wanted to say. Thanks. Thank you, Madeleine. And Eddie through this finally. Yeah, thank you Christina. Thank you so much and happy Women's Day to everyone. I'm very happy to be part of this panel to share this virtual podium with these excellent ladies in the sector. Yeah, so I started my journey a little bit some years ago. I'm a marine biologist and immediately after finishing my university I came to Moansa. Moansa is one of the big cities along the shores of Lake Victoria and there I started working with Moansa Women Development Association that provided me an opportunity of moving around to the islands of Lake Victoria to the villages and the shores. So that interaction by then showed me the challenges that women are going through and mostly because they are in the islands their lives and livelihoods is dependent on fish and fisheries. So that's how I started engaging with women in fisheries. Then in 2006 that's when I started the local organization that I work with in Madeleine, Environmental Management and Economic Development Organization, trying to link environment and the economy and then management of natural resources so that women are part and parcel of all these processes. But the interesting moment for me and my big engagement with women in fisheries started in 2012. That's when through Madeleine I joined this international organization of fishers, fish workers and fish processors, WFF, the World Forum of Fish Services and Fish Workers. When I attended that meeting I was elected as co-president. That gave me again an opportunity now to attend into different places at the regional level, global level. So that knowledge and skills listening to these stories of women from different contexts even gave me more inward looking into wanting to see what is happening. So when I came back and that by then the process of developing the SSF guidelines, the FAO, for sustainable small scale fisheries in the context of food security and proper television. So with that really gave me the move to go into that because with the consultation that have been happening I could learn even more that women not being part of the processes is not just at the very local level where I was working but it's even at the national level, original level and even at the global level. So yeah that's how I really engaged and interestingly SSF guidelines address gender as a specific chapter on gender. So for me that was very intensifying because we together, a meadow together with the government here, we are working to implement the SSF guidelines and together we have supported the establishment of the national network of women in small scale fisheries. So that is very, it's giving me the strength to move on and to continue supporting women in the sector. Thank you. I'll continue actually since you had the mic on. What do you think women's contribution to the seafood value chain is still mostly ignored and invisible? Yeah thank you, thank you so much. This is something that is historical because when you only mention fisheries itself even at the very first moment fisheries is linked to men. It's men's job, it's men going into the sea, to the waters, to fish and so on and so forth and therefore because it is deep rooted that this is men's job processes towards bringing women on board into this visibility, it needs you know deliberate effort. So what I would say as we are speaking now a lot of efforts have been made and I am optimistic and I'm seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. So they are not still where they were some years ago, there are some strides that have been made and therefore patriarchy I would say is another issue that has really made women in the sector in the seafood value chain to be invisible and to be regardless of the contribution that they have they are still not recognized but again as I'm saying we are seeing some progress. The lack of participation of women in different processes in the seafood value chain as you had said at the beginning women make the biggest part of those actors in the post harvest sector. They are even more than 50% but when you look at their participation for example in decision making you know in policy making processes in other development processes you look at the condition of work you know at that sector not just here at the post harvest even before going to fish women you know at the pre harvesting stage there are a lot of women who are working there look at the working conditions they are really really tough they are hard and these are the things that are you know kind of continue to suppress the women continue to make women you know invisible but one another thing that I think and I see it's important in the scale the scale of engagement of women in this sector it's it's it's small that's why it's small scale but if you look at it geographically their businesses are small most of them though we have some who are doing very well but the majority they have very little capital you know their businesses are at the very local scale they don't even reach at the national level so that one for them to even be recognized by the national level policymakers is a process so these are some of the things that continue to make you know to to kind of to to make women invisible and their work kind of not really appreciated the way it should be appreciated they do a lot they work a lot they are the ones who feed their families you know but why is it not happening because their businesses for example I know of the women whose capital is just to afford one bucket of fish and when they buy they sell from door to door but the way they do that they save their communities at the very local scale that is not known at the higher levels so to make them visible again it's an effort and that's why as you said at the beginning for example in Tanzania the establishment of the national women fish workers association that was done by the ministry in collaboration with other actors including the middle is a step to try to try to make these women visible to try to invite them into these processes that will give them the opportunity to to send their voices to make their voices hard to unify their voices and so that this invisibility is you know it's made a history. Bandlin for instance in a different context like the European context would you say this is also the case in Europe in the country like the UK where you've studied in the north of Europe? I mean thanks for that I'm not sure I have much to add to that I suppose I can add yeah I mean from my experience working with fishing communities in the UK it's not it's not too different I mean the sort of yes it's different but the sort of invisibility element is still there and I was I would say that what it is saying around you know around fishermen the assumption that fishermen men is kind of the starting point of it all yeah I definitely agree with that and I but I think when I think about invisibility I think there are two things first it's the fact that we focus on fishermen and we we don't which is the kind of symbolically valued identity of the fishing community right that's the sort of that's the person that sometimes becomes almost romanticized in in these communities and and we don't look to the other people that are not the fishermen if that makes sense but also the women in in the UK that I've spoken to they're not and they're not necessarily so really present in those spaces that we normally associate with the fishing industry so like the sea harbours uh yeah you know the coastlines like that but they might be doing work in other spaces so for example their invisibility comes out of that as well right that you know they might be doing paperwork in the home they might be transporting fish to other localities but they they don't often operate in those spaces that we associate with the fishing industry um yeah no go ahead go ahead no I suppose um I suppose I wanted to say that you know as a consequence of this and other things that it really really perfectly explained you know around sort of participation in governance and and decision making and things like this and women often become sort of positioned as secondary to to fishermen in in the UK context for sure what I see a lot of shaking heads uh the I assume this is the same everywhere but Kyoko do you want do you want to add anything about your your experience uh in in Asia and the other side of the world what is the position why why the invisibility of women if it matches a bit what happens in African context and European context it's in the fishing community among the fishers I think it's not invisible it's invisible in the eyes of the researchers and the government officers who really make the decision for resource allocation and that creates a problem so so it's it's really that part uh it's I mean that the work is there and people know that women are doing the work but then it's really the the the eyes of the the decision makers and then I think that's where we have a problem it's a good point actually Bartha do you is the experience in Mexico kind of yeah yeah sure yeah same I think it's same in of the world I am going to talk a little bit on my experience in Mexico I have a 20 years of experience or almost 30 years and an experience to to go to the fishermen campus and you know to see how it's working everything and I think I know more more or less uh many partners Mexico that they they are doing the fishing business and it's very interesting because as you as as the as as you say the job is like invisible but not the hands okay so they know the hands of the woman is very important before and after they catching the fish and part of the community the the the the woman of course they are preparing everything for the fishing men go to to go to fish and after that they they she takes the you know she takes one or the less she takes she takes care of the fish and you know cleaning and think and sometimes they also they they sell they sell the fish in the smallest small communities when it's a little bit big area of fishing like here in the north of part of Mexico we produce a lot of tons of products and then the the the woman is part of the labor of the factories but they are very very important but it's it's like uh in the mind in the mind of the men's and the mind also some of the women who who are in charge the labor of the woman is not as important as the men even is is same is is that such a things like uh when when they talk about how how how how i i pay to the woman pay they pay they think they can pay less because it's a woman of course i think it's all of the world like this but you know it's something that very strange but also is uh in the especially my factory i tried to teach the the the woman to do some labor in labor but you know they the the woman can do it and she refused sometimes she refused to do it because they say it's a it's a men i mean work okay so i think it's something uh it's a culture like uh as the troops uh say it's culture and also this culture is inside of the of the woman a mind of current of the men might not so if we want to improve all the things because the you know the situation is i think it's same in all of the work here in Mexico or in Europe or in Africa or in in in the in the audience i think it's same and i think in this uh period of the time we have a very good opportunity to show the the the work of the woman for everybody and then the woman is going to see i do a lot of things so and then she can improve employment you know she can say okay my my job is is very good so i can i can receive a little bit more i can have a voice to the to the government for do a law and then a can help me uh and i'm going to finish that because i i take a little time but one of the important thing for the woman is who is going to take care of the the kids the children when when she's working and it's something like it's just invisible the government doesn't see this they don't believe that the children's is grown out alone alone because in the mind of the of the government is is not appeared this point so it's something like uh it's it's uh like uh she can do more things but she says stop because she has to take care of the children of course is very important but this job is not uh being together with the man it's like uh they believe this is belong to the woman i can help with the money but it's it's not like this i mean is this is the status of this the uh the world the to take care of the children is both of course but it's something like it's stop stop stop so she she's going to to say okay i can do see if you pay me less it's okay because i have to take care of my kids it that does bring me to another question regarding the current situation because women have been disproportionately affected in terms of employment in all segments of of of the economy with the with the pandemic you work on the birthday you work on the seafood industry do you do you perceive that the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic has been particularly harder on women in the seafood value chain or it is across the board and not particularly harder for women no it's hard for the woman of course you know it's hard for everyone but it's more for the woman of course you know always when we we talk about the situation of the woman we're going to see in the statistics she's the is the poorest he is the poorest one if uh you know of course in the in the in the pandemic it's it's very difficult for the woman because many um in the fish business many fish business is closed because you know the market and things like this so the first uh employment that the the people say i'm not going to take her i can do not to to take care of i'm going to stop is the woman so she's now she's uh doing another thing she's she's making something in cookies in the in the home and trying to know to to settle because um many women's are they are take care of the of the family i mean they they they are the only one that bring money to the family so it's very affected is again the government doesn't see this doesn't see this the government is thinking in other things but it's part of the world the kiyoko uh moving a bit to another area i know you you you have been working on the impact of COVID-19 in small-scale fish risk communities in Cambodia do you um what is it like there do you also perceive that women get more impacted than men and what kind of uh innovative waves are women uh responding to these kind of pressures like the COVID-19 pandemic yeah uh because well uh uh i uh study the the situation in Cambodia because in uh also in other places uh many times COVID impact is described in the the urban areas how people lose job how people are yeah so uh uh so it is very so it looks as if uh the rural areas are or in the fishing communities are not that affected and then when we asked the fishers and then they also say that oh it's okay we don't have so many cases in our fishing in our community like like some villages say we have zero cases and then so it looks as if they were not affected however uh if we look at it more deeply uh because of the pandemic of course the tourism go down and the many of the especially uh the fishes that were were sold in good prices were for the tourists and so that has that has gone and then also because of the economy have gone down with the pandemic so now people in general have uh less income so if they have less income they do not buy expensive fish and domestic wild fish is actually expensive so what they do is that these poor people will go for imported aquaculture fish which is much cheaper so instead of buying fish from the wild uh which is domestic with the fisher's catch they will buy imported fish from vietnam and taiwan so so the people who are importing fish they can sell fish but in them the fisher domestic fishers are now losing now and uh so that so in in general the income goes down and what is worse is that with the covid migrant workers are coming back there's a lot of migrant workers in cambodia who go to taiwan to work now with covid people are coming back now they come back no work more more mouths to feed but no work now so so what happens is that the income is going down the demand is going down there's no more people to feed and who's going to look after everybody and then make sure that everybody's going to eat and then the all this responsibility goes on to the woman who herself are having more less uh less opportunity to earn more income what is worse is that what she was doing as trading is also being affected also because of covid and then people are also afraid to go into the market women traders themselves are afraid to go to the market so now that part is also shrinking so this maybe they're not affected by the disease itself but the whole ripple effect is really coming very much to to the woman especially to the woman so what we are seeing is that the pandemic is actually expanding the disparity both not only the rich and the poor but also women and men yeah because they do the very different things so so that's what we are also seeing in terms of the pandemic um they can give it to the q&a and because there's a question that kind of follows from this i i'm going to ask you a question that jagannatha put it i'm sorry if i'm seeing the ring wrong it's a it's a reference to all the speakers it's a good practice of fishes women starting their own bank in bangladesh and that we even have noble prizes for this kind of initiatives and it through this i know that women and access to to credit can be a problem in in tazani do you want to give us an example of your experience in tazani on women accessing uh credit um and bank loans yeah um actually uh i would say it's not that much a problem as long as a one meets you know the criteria to be able to access the loans now the only challenge comes uh that comes in here is that do the women have that capacity do they qualify you know so that's the only challenge their businesses as i said before they are very small scale and for them to be able to access uh credits from the banks they don't have that you know they need the collateral that they don't have and unless they work themselves in groups you know and they are very small small groups that they do like maybe go around or they have these uh village community banks the vikoba so it's kind of coming kind of coming up but uh if um he is referring to like you know commercial banks it's really tough unless you have to go to all the procedures that the bank would want just to give an example uh one of the collateral they will need like you know you need to own you know uh properties and most women in the sector do not own properties unless some because yes we have witnessed some of them for example in the marine area in kilo for example and they can access loans in the bank they even do better than men you know but some the majority are the ones who are not able to access so it is a bit uh dynamic and uh it depends also on the situations i'm trying to follow a bit the q&a questions at the same time and i have to say this multitasking is a bit a bit hard um but i actually continuing a bit uh with the impact of covid um we nowadays we talk a lot about covid of course it's a it's a major impact but the impact on scale fishes um impact on small scale fishes not only caused by covid 19 are the other global pressures such as over exploitation and climate change continue to have an impact and i know for a fact that they did you have some interesting stories around lake victoria uh on these kind of impacts uh the kind of pressures it has on women the the the climate change and and the loss of biodiversity over exploitation do you want to tell us a little bit about and i'll have a few more questions about this environment because i can see them popping here um yeah yeah thank you thank you again for this opportunity and yeah i would like to share my experiences uh through the local organization a meadow that i work with uh that among the things that we do uh involve supporting women in the small scale fisheries and most of these women majority i would say are dependent on the aquatic resources and ecosystems uh that provide not just only for women but to other millions of people you know with livelihoods and you know a range of other critical ecosystem services including food and nutrition however these services you know we know for sure they are being significantly affected by climate change and climate change together with other disasters as we have mentioned already adding on to the problems that women are already facing you know there are a lot of challenges as i mentioned such as limited access information the question you asked right now regarding access to financial resources you know limited participation in policymaking you know access to credit facilities and so on and so forth so there are a number of ways that aquatic resources and ecosystems are being impacted by climate change and these impacts are primarily felt by the communities you know vulnerable communities and particularly women because as kiko said if you look at the statistics um when you look at the poor many people are poor but the majority of the poor are women so even here majority of the vulnerable communities are women and here in climate change impacts them more even so just to give an example the increase in water levels where i live i live um in the shores of lake victoria i witness there is an increase of the water levels in lake victoria and such an increase oh i think there are lots of detritus poses a lot of challenges such as the loss of access to fish and the disruption of the beach processing activities performed by women because most of women you know they dry fish by spreading them along the you know the landing sites and these landing beaches have been submerged now there's a lot of water so access to those uh you know landing sites to those to access you know fish and other resources is is difficult so this has really also contributed to um loss of fish post-havish loss because for them to dry fish they need direct sunlight and even if they are deep frying they will need to drip the water first before they deep fry the fish so this has impacted women so much in terms of both quality of fish but also in terms of the quantity um as i said i witness yes no no continue okay i witness in several occasions when women whose lives are entirely dependent on fish business with their little Allah Allah ask Allah for instance Madeline um um there's an interesting question here from Shannon about this so do you um i'm asking you but you could be asking anyone else do you think we need to uh to support the role of men in the home uh or this kind of traditional women's in this traditional women's realm in order to help encourage women empowerment we talked about a lot of women empowerment Bertha talked about it uh i think it was two uh you two as well a bit i'm asking that's kind of i'm asking the potentially the easiest context of europe do we do in the northern european context even you think we can uh uh support the the role of men in the household as a way to encourage women empowerment outside of the home you wanted me to answer this well yeah no i can i can't that's not gonna happen um definitely but i think it's it's it's something we need as supposed to do but it's quite a difficult one as well and i think i've done some research before around uh masculinities as well as because obviously gender and issues are not just about uh women they're also about men and masculinities and also like how parent uh parental roles are changing right so um i mean i i've just and this is obviously context specific this this varies by country by country by place by place but how how men in in north wales uh in particular is sort of considering the relationships to their children in in various ways in in the ways that they're doing fishing i mean this is not what i was kind of expecting to talk about but um but i think you know i mean as researchers or people that are working with us we should attend to these issues as well for sure yes i know that i asked you specifically because i know you've worked on the issue because i'm trying to follow the questions in q and a and and putting the ones that are that have more thumbs up and are coming up on the top and there's also a question for instance from mezz um that has worked in madagascar um she mezz is curious about what the feminist approach to fisheries management would look like what are the key principles eddie trudez mentioned the the lack of women in decision making so improving access to the decision-making process is key obviously and mainland kiyoko also mentioned women's invisibility uh so um what are the principles which principles would be central to to a more feminist approach to fisheries management i don't know who would like to take on this one to be different um kiyoko would you would you like to i don't know if you work on this kind of fields would you like to to bringing you back into the conversation would you like to give us your perspective okay i think um this panel actually um uh describes really gives the answer what we are talking about why we are uh where we have started working on gender fisheries some people say that it's because we have identified that its women are invisible we don't know very much and then it's not recognized the roles are not recognized so visibility is really the first step i mean that without really having gender disaggregated data and then really knowing what is going on uh and what kind of contribution women women are making and then really recognizing that and appreciating that uh nothing would happen so uh first of all it's really important that we're having this kind of webinars and we're having research and data collection those that are really really important because without that doesn't happen but then they're only having that and say that okay that's nice to know is also nothing in uh not enough so that's why what adelix was also saying about the decision makings are very important how and then if we know that the women are not recognized uh women are not getting the share wages like bertha was saying and then how are we going to make sure that women do get fair wages and how do women get fair recognition so that we have to this fairness of contribution and benefit is something that we really do need to look into and then of course women do need to i mean they're like supporting women's group like like what adelix was also is also working with and then uh letting them decide their own fate and then letting them decide their own design so those are also very important so actually what the the combination of the panel today is actually reflecting all the very important aspects uh uh that is necessary when we are talking about gender and fisheries adelix you do work you have you work in several uh networks actually do you think uh this is uh this these women the network the networks of fishing women can be uh an opportunity for for for this kind of approach to fisheries management and would how could we use it to to to come out of this COVID-19 pandemic and design a more inclusive blue recovery plan um how could we put women forward through these networks yeah thank you uh you know women working in these networks is an opportunity because what i would say uh the invisibility is because also these women are not working together they are not well organized which is one important element for them to start making strikes towards addressing the challenges that they are facing so to give you an example uh the national network of women fish processors and traders in Tanzania a a meadow has gotten some support and we're working together with the ministry a support from FAO we go to also support financial support from like straight bio and oak foundation we are training these women to become leaders and this is very important and who is a leader a leader is not a boss so we are trying to instill this sense in the women that no matter the scale no matter where they are no matter what they are doing they are leaders in their own positions they are leaders in their own localities and therefore we have this program as a meadow um the transformational leadership training for women rights and empowerment this is training these women to become to be facilitators they are already facilitators but to acknowledge the fact that they are facilitating processes that will help other women in the communities so that together they are able to to realize their collective objectives so this is very important because through the networks uh not just of of Tanzania together we are trying to build to support other countries are most a part of our continental network of women fish processors and traders that is called our fish net this is an African women fish processors and traders network that has membership from 29 African countries and through this network we are trying to come together to see at the continental level because you know invisibility also happens in in policies in strategies in programs so what are the continental programs that have impact on women trying to look at this how these women can influence these processes that when these policies are implemented they're implemented at the local level and that's where women are where they are working where they are doing their day to day responsibilities so this bringing them together to unify their voices to get opportunities to learn from each others to encourage each others to be empowered is really an opportunity that would lead towards you know improving the governance but also improving the situation in general before going to the next question we did ask people that are assisting that are taking part on the webinar to reply to a few questions and so I would ask Juliette could you show the question that we asked people about if has the COVID-19 pandemic created more challenges for women in the seafood industry and the reply was a yes but a lot of I'm not sure because that brings me to the to the next question that I was going to ask and I would also ask Juliette if she could put it up which is how can we champion so how can men and women champion gender equality in a sustainable and inclusive blue recovery from the pandemic and and it's interesting to see that we were kind of talking about the the the topic about women decision making the past building recognition representation makes me ask so in it I'll ask I'll ask Bertha because it's who I can see here on my box on the side but in the case of Mexico I know I have it I've talked to you about the the problems of education and so how do you think what do you think it needs how can we increase this women involvement in decision making how does this pass through kind of education besides the networks like like Eddie through this was mentioning yeah yeah it's very interesting that they do it in in Africa so I am you know very curious of this so I think it's a very good a very good idea to import a woman but also I was thinking in the in the you know the why why the woman is having problems to be visually visually to the people can can be visuality the the the work for the woman why is why is that why the the work of the woman is is doing but nobody takes care in the in the by the government I don't know if I can I can do my ideas because I translate the Spanish to English I'm sorry for this basically why are they invisible when they actually develop so much for conditioning yeah and then why I think it's because one thing is because she doesn't take care of this she only is take care of uh some uh a survival survival is is is she's in in this level to get survival and and if the if the people give some money even is less money for the men it's okay for her because she is in this system and she needs to be educated she needs to be educated and then if she is educated in the in the in the education is a particular that say you are same as the one man and man is same as a woman I think it can be improved herself I think it the problem is the education and also and also I I hear about in Africa work is very interesting because also the woman is very very difficult for her to be together to put to put one idea and in everyone go looking for this idea and also it's very difficult for her to reconcile the leader it's not a problem with the woman it's a problem the war I mean the the particular for the for the main woman but I think it's more for the woman to reconcile one one woman to be a leader and most of the time she followed the man not follow the the the woman so I think it's something uh cultural and uh educate that's why I think she needs to be educated and and then I was thinking how can we do it I think we should uh force to the to the to the government to put in the school the elementary school the primary school to put some uh a a signature um I mean one one class to to give this information for the girls and the in the in the boys to empower I had to encourage it and then we can you know maybe we are going to delay one generation or 10 years more I don't know but anyway it's going to be uh doing and for the for the for the boys and the girls because they don't learn very very uh little they are going to see no difference I have all the opportunities I am intelligent I am educated so I can do it I mean it's something like has to be inside of every one so I think we are uh working with uh of course we need to to do between these 10 years of 15 years to to improve the woman of course I'm not saying that the the force is not doing but but if we we look in the the ground why is doing this why we delay it because we we in uh the particular here in Mexico some of the women are are very few but some of them are taking about taking taking the business and they and when she asked her oh it's very difficult to you to take care about the the business to be in church she said no it's difficult as the men because she they are very you know they are important now inside so she can be a leader um I I have a question let's see who wants to take it from uh Madu puts an interesting question uh that can you reflect on cases examples where women have managed to achieve true transformation outcomes especially in fisheries management and what made that successful can anyone think about um cases where women have managed to achieve true true transformation outcomes who would who can oh I think I'm not sure if we lost it through the tunnel oh no no you're there um um so um I don't know uh Kiyoko do you I don't know if you have an example or if you want to to have a go at it I feel I'm not asking okay that actually not really like but then like very interesting case where like uh there was this uh because in Cambodia we they have this uh a community fishery system where the fishing communities are kind of given the right or end-duty uh to to look after to manage a certain water body uh by the by the state so uh so that is there and then most of the the president of these kind of fishing communities are are meant uh but then in the some of the coastal uh communities there's a lot of this land conflict because there's a lot of investment coming in and then trying to take over the coastal land for tourism and the other other industry purposes so there's a lot of the the community have to to have a lot of conflict with these kind of investments so now before the men were leaders and then they were more complacent to this kind of investment and so the fishers were very very unhappy and then uh then and then they had an election and then the woman got the uh got uh got elected so she became the president and then so she really really took up a lot of these uh complicated cases which was from the the small fishers and then really went to court with them and all that and so really she took care of them very very very very well and then that's how the community have really become very visible in terms of these legal cases so she was so she so everybody was happy with her leadership and then so she became a quite quite a famous leader in that area however as Zabrotha was saying this has kind of triggered jealousy from the men that the men started to say that oh how can women do this kind of thing oh this and so so this all these kind of things that normally women hear yeah it has been also been being so the critique were there so in the end of the day uh she was she was ousted by other men uh who kind of took over because she was able to manage a lot of projects because many people have supported her so they also wanted to take take over those projects that well and then they took over the position and then kicked her out so so yes uh in one sense uh if a woman are given the opportunity and the chance she really can prove herself very well and then people do accept that the the leadership that she have uh and in the care that she have really extended to them but in the same time um it it became very short lived uh because of this still a lot of this patriarchal uh uh forces that was there that would not allow a woman to really like especially when she started to manage a large resource so so that kind of thing like so that was so it's not a very really successful case it's not successful yeah the bow go rolling in an interesting case of a local champion that seems to always work well in uh almost all fishes but uh not I wouldn't say a success but I did through this do you have an example since you work on the ground do you have an example of a kind of a success uh case in uh women yeah what I would say is uh transformational outcomes in fishery to management you know management has these elements including the participation in different places I'm sorry we don't have power so mine is getting that that's why you're a bit dark yes get for maybe I get natural light from outside but anyway so with this I think uh the very good example from Tanzania here with the implementation of the SSF guidelines uh women have organized at the national level and now they have been recognized and they're invited in meetings for example there is a the recent case um is the recent meeting where there was a national fishery stakeholders workshop that brings stakeholders from all over the country and if it were not for this national organization probably women wouldn't have been in that meeting through that capacity but now they've been there they have aired you know their views you know they were confident and through the trainings like the transformational leadership training that they've uh got and they've attended they have used that knowledge that they you know have made them confident enough to stand you know in front of the minister to air their views to ask to present their asks the requests to the government official so I think that's really a very good beginning that's a very interesting case because that fear that no we are women we cannot do this we cannot do that is getting away and everything has a point to start with you know decision making is important and if we don't have voices of these women right from there it means that even the implementation you cannot see it happening so I think that's also interesting thing to share that with women being well organized they start being visible they start being recognized recognition comes in even being invited for such kind of important meetings where national decisions regarding seafood value chain you know seafood as a sector is be they are being taken yeah that's me sorry the fact that you speak about that you mentioned this musko-fishes guidelines that indeed pushed for for gender equality and the women in power and the Saudi SDGs which makes me think about the the upcoming 2022 being the international year overtisanal fisheries and aquaculture well how do you think both how can we champion gender equality in the sector starting immediately kind of now before the the year even starts not leaving it for next year but how can we use this the the musko-fishes guidelines the SDGs the United Nations having declared that 2022 the international year overtisanal fisheries and aquaculture how can we can champion gender equality in the sector can I start with you Madeline and then I'll go I would like to hear everyone on on this one yeah oh difficult but I mean I think there is a few things that I can just think of on from the top of my head first of all is probably to give women a better chance to work as fishers and I suppose to kind of raise the fact that women are fishermen fisher woman capturing fish at sea and they're often not giving the opportunity to do that and I've spoken to women that do that and they enjoy this and they love that kind of work so I think that's one thing but that's obviously not all and I suppose also we need to value all the kinds of work that goes into catching a fish and it's just there's so much more than just fishing and we have to like put equal value on that and I think Edith Rudd was talking about women's right to to organize and I think that's great and I think that is to be better supported you know with external support from in the UK context for example and that's definitely case and yeah and then obviously it's what Bertha was saying about culture sort of changing changing the way we gender and we position women as less than and men or sort of lacking somehow women are not lacking in in any way we're great great as we are it's just a matter of like how we how we frame ourselves as we're not just ourselves so how we become framed as different or less than I suppose so quantifying fisheries in a different way and looking at fishes and this one. Kiyoko do you do you want also what would you what do you think how can we champion gender equality thinking about opportunities for for that come up with the effort. One thing yes I think that quantifying and that is also very important it's also very important that we also I would say revise how we define things like like the defined definition of work I think that was why this whole issue of care work and all the childcare and all that came out but then then because it is childcare is not considered as as work so that's why we are now questioning what are we going to do with childcare so so the whole issue of of of of work is is is still it's becoming very obsolete in the state's definition so so we do need a new definition because now with COVID you know that people were working from home and yeah so education is also from home and so many things are now changing and then like now casualization of labor so we don't have permanent jobs everybody on job contracts and then like so so it's every many things are changing but I don't think the government definition of work and employment is really changing in that respect so it's very important that this kind of a scope and definition of many concepts are have to change like fisheries fishing managed fisheries management still fisheries management is capturing and yeah so capturing raising yeah so so the gears and yeah so the boat and so so this it's it's basically there and okay sometimes some people remember that oh yes it's also processing oh yes it's trading I mean that still it's something in a very very perfectly yeah so it's the fishing as actually definition is also very very again very limited very close we have been I think they have been a lot of improvement compared to before but I think we are still having struggling with this very much of a marginalization because the whole fishing management framework is always having trade that trade and processing somewhere in the very very end of the the whole value chain yeah so why it's not in the middle and then why it's always in the very very end yeah so so so that so it's it's um uh the whole idea uh also have to to to change that's that's one uh that one uh very important thing so in the so so because because this doesn't change so for example after covid uh the the god if you look at the government uh employ the economic stimulus strategies they are more focusing on large large companies large economy macro economy so that they can have a quick fix so that large companies can employ more people and then they have a quick fix on employment actually if we look at the longer period of time and then we do need like this very very long term consistent support for small-scale fisheries and fishing communities and that cannot be sacrificed on the name of okay we are in a crisis we need a quick fix on employment so so that so we do need to still advocate that you cannot just take away and then do that first and then come back because by the time they come back the fishers might already have been closed down so we do need to to make sure that the the investment are also coming to the small fishing community as well um bertha what is uh what what would you say i'm i'm i'm conscious of time i kind of lost track here and i'm conscious that they're actually coming to an end time flies and this is shame but uh i would like also to see bertha what do you what do you oh do you think we can champion gender equality um yeah thank you for that i am very um i think about the kioto state about the concept of the fish fishery business i think it's uh something like a has to be in the agenda it has to be the the concept has to be more bigger and then when it's going to be bigger and then we see who is going to take care every part of this okay like a of course if it would be we believe the fish is only the capture and then it's very very small a small concept if we believe the fish is to take care of the fish and with the environment environment because it's very important the fish is said who's how are you going to catch and you know all the all the the change and then we we can um involve the woman can be involved because it's going to be more more more uh bigger the concept and then we can go through all these changes i say okay uh i need a biologist for example to take care of this area the environment okay the biologist is the biologist i mean can be woman who can be man so it's going to be open but has to be open the concept if we be open the concept of the woman and the man not only not not only thinking like it it's going to feed more the men no because it's a big big concept he also we can enroll and you can catch in the fish but you know step by step okay but i i think the key of the of this is uh to into to increase the the concept the the fish business of total okay and then we can increase the the label here very true i want also to give you an opportunity of one minute to say what how do you think we can uh we we can increase uh that is well basically the same question what kind of thank you thank you for the gender equality yeah a lot has been said what i can say is we have the whole list of challenges in the sector that are facing both men and women and what i think could be done that i think if it's done it would really help to to to improve gender equality is that to try to support not even just trying to make deliberate efforts to support both men and women to be able to turn these challenges into opportunities you know they have this potential but what is lacking is the capacity and for example with this training that of transform transformational leadership training for women's race and empowerment could not could also be done for for for the men so that they are at the same level and then they can work together but more importantly is that we want to see this especially for women that they have yeah it's because of you know the poverty the level of poverty is higher to women than to men so we support them turn the opportunity to turn the challenges into opportunities and then together they are able to to engage participate in all the activities that would make the sector more sustainable and uh yeah improve the economic status thank you thank you editor i'm very conscious of time i really would like to ask truly yet because um and we kind of reach our time and uh and i would like to thank all the fabulous women that took part in the panel i i i also wanted to ask juliet very quickly to put up uh uh what countries the clouds showing the countries of people that that uh that took part in the panel out of curiosity and then quickly move to ah interesting um uh not surprising that's a bit focused here in europe because we are in a better time zone um also could you show us um we did ask about the gender of the people that took part and i'm kind of curious to see who took part and then this is one of the things i was kind of curious and i wanted to close also with it because one of the talking to several women working industry this is an issue that we've been talking a lot about about the fact that mostly women participate in this kind of events and not so much men so um we kind of we still have a bit of a way to go uh to to bring men into this kind of dialogue to see how we can involve men more and and um in in gender issues and gender equality issues so i'm very conscious that we've passed our time one minute so uh i i would like to thank the four of you for for being here especially i'm very conscious about times on difference so i would especially like to thank Bertha because you woke up very early to be here thank you very much and Kiyoko because you stayed on very late in Thailand to also be here thank you very much but thank you to all of you for taking part um and we will uh we will uh we will reply to your questions on the on the online page pick up on your questions and also put the the clouds the the word clouds on the on the web page to see if people are interested in some of the replies to the questions that were happening in in Q&A thank you very much everyone for taking part and thank you to all of you thank you thank you