 Hello, shall we start please you'll do the count and open hello. Good afternoon everybody. Let's start We just start with a moment of silence as usual. Please everybody switch off your cell phones and Take your seats. Thank you everybody for coming We start straight away. We have a pretty dense Presentation So we can start with the next slide. It's a short video and then we start the presentation We need a process that allows envisioning a separate from that which admins and a separate from that which implements and I know this is not we need a Process that allows envisioning a separate from that which admins and a separate from that which implements and I know this is not a new idea in orville. That's the thing. You know, we have always have But you know how much of it and where are we in that circle of green? I don't think I can repeat One year old from that which admins and a separate from that which implements and I know this is not a new idea in orville That's the thing. You know, we have always have ideas But you know how much of it and where are we in that circle of Reinventing something so can we you know do something which allows this? To happen that you know la veneer the orville can actually be the future of orville That does the envisioning, you know that allows all this participation to happen to take forward everything, you know And creates helps us in the path rather than you know creating impediments So this is a very difficult topic, but we are very we are still hopeful that if everything goes right and If last the shelf is on board and the secretary is also, you know Supporting the fact that what we have agreed upon and that the ATDC is going to do what it has said Then we are still hopeful that some of these ideas will be taken forward that there will be next steps to this and We'll manage to go forward, but this is one of our problems, you know in orville in general And this this was also our fear when we started, you know that again, they should not enter a drawer One more report in the thousands of beautiful reports that we make but really it should go forward And we hope that it is the right moment So this was from last august Next line Are you going to do the slides? Thanks So, yeah, there was a lot of hope this was about a year back and we were We were really hoping that something will go forward We thought we had changed the narrative that we can't work together that we can come up with something beautiful and That we will continue to you know take it forward in a collective manner But as we all know a lot of water flowed under the bridge in the meantime a lot of things have Changed and I'm sure all of you understand the place where this was and where we are today I mean all of us have experienced a lot of things in this last one year And we were for a long time. We were kind of kept in the We weren't sure how this is going to go forward until we heard Eventually we came to know that vast the ship has not it's not going to sign the contract the DDP for making the DDP for the master plan for Orville and then There was some time about at the end of last year, maybe in the in September somewhere And then we had another hope when in last April this April 23 We had another hope that that vast the ship will be back on board We made a presentation the RAT DC made a presentation at the at Calabumi in Knock in up April and that time again, we were hoping that last issue will come back on board And somehow that also didn't work out So here we are today next slide and This is our latest churning that we are undergoing what three of us have kind of managed to Put together because we felt what's next and a lot of people would keep on approaching us What what is what can we do and I'm sure a lot of people are doing a lot of things? Trying to do in their own the best they can so what we started was a process of Talking to a lot of varied people a lot of people we interviewed one to one we talked We made open house at La Terra's where different people could come and we could talk to them in the evenings and After that we have come this is kind of like a condensation of our process of the last one year And we thought it's time to kind of bring it forward to the community So this is called two words collective transformations and I don't think I need to explain much to Orvilleans what collective means what transformation means everybody understands, but yet we are not able to really go forward towards that and We believe we kind of Have come up with some diagrams which make it very simple to explain What has been happening? Even I would say in the last 55 years, you know, and since the day or a will was born You know and we we think it's worth kind of presenting to the community. So that's what we can trying to do here today next And this is exactly again the story many many, you know good initiatives have started Many positive things have happened Collaborative collective I don't think we are the community that is sort of ideas We're also not a community shot of aspirations We are all here for something very special and you know, we all want to do something that is good We have good will Yet we don't manage to go forward and yet we managed to hurt each other a lot Yet we managed to create a lot of divisions and maybe that's part of the of the game To grow but right now. This is the best we can offer So we want to know we wanted to look at it. Why what is happening? Why do these all these? Nice initiative with the best intentions Eventually don't go forward next and In today's context, these are the things that we have identified The red and the blue so the red is more Like what is not really worked or what is say more on the side where we are really not doing very good The blue is the signs where we feel that there's a transition happening So the first is the RA Now RA as we all know as many many Ways of being interpreted But the point is is the RA ready now for some transformation is are we ready for doing it in a different way? We all know that we have tried and often, you know The arrays were not what they were meant to be very often We felt that we were stagnating, you know, and we were not able to go forward and a lot of different viewpoints were clashing all the time so the RA as a The way it was organized and the way it works is something that we need to look at and we need to look at it this very deeply and It's good because right now we feel that the RA has become strong and people are coming people are attending and you know More and more people are coming forward Because of the special situation that we are in now, but how do we sustain this? You know we can we come around together when we have some common cause But then we get all very caught up in our day-to-day Lives and our work and and it's true that all of us are working a Lot a lot like we all take up so many responsibilities because we are all Building something special here and there's so much to be done And it's amazing what we have done in this last 50 years But the with the small amount of people that we have done But yet our processes were not always the right ones not always the ones that took us forward So that's one external collaboration is also another Very contentious issue Because we have always got people from all over the world to come here and Invited them on the basis of our you know interaction some of the best people have offered their services for free But yet when they come somehow they get involved in our internal politics And they get caught in this dichotomy and then nothing happens and in fact It's very sad because we are not able to sustain this We're not able to give them a respectful platform Respect towards our own internal you know processes, but also respect towards what they are bringing on the table and Very often we do have a very so to say arrogant attitude because you know we think we live here We know the land we know the people we know the life We know what mothers said we know what you're here for But then we invite them and then in the end it doesn't really work So this is also a very important aspect Which we need to look at and we need to collectively decide do we want to go there or not? Because every time we cannot end up doing this kind of things you know inviting people and they're not taking on board What they have to say or then you know shying away from it or shoving it under the carpet It's not going to work anymore. I think we are on a we are we are on a transition phase where we have to Decide are we going forward together or not? And all of his current energy as Like I guess I don't have to say that but a lot of us Do feel very kind of dance Heavy, I don't know they press it depends everybody's in a different space But it is a difficult time in any case I don't think anybody would disagree that this is a difficult time in all of this history It's not we've had them before we'll have them in future perhaps But right now what we are going through is difficult And things have happened which we never thought could happen like you know visas Our own people deciding policies, you know where we are not involved or people from externally You know dictating what we have to do all these kind of things don't feel correct in the spirit of Orwell So right now there is a big a big sense in the community that Feels heavy and at the same time on the right hand side. They are the positives which are kind of emerging This is what we have seen from our talks with different people That there is signs of critical shifts people have been looking in word And you know that is what we are here for. I think all of us here are Sensitive individuals who are who are ready to look, you know, not always pointing the finger at others But also looking at our own selves and people are shifting positions They're starting to question themselves like where did we go wrong? And you know, what is my role in this and can I change this and people who held very strong positions for very many years Are also able to look at things differently. Of course, sometimes it can we cannot generalize but this is a sense of feeling that we have got The other one is towards the center. There is a like we have presented this in the last time that There is a sense of people You know email converging towards the center more than having trying to you know Hang on to their radical ideas and that is also something that is happening because the churning that is happening in Oroville So there is that Going towards the center. So people are kind of ready for some other kind of process That is more collective that is involving more people that is going towards more collaboration This is our sense and I believe that's why also you are here somehow because we feel that there is some chance of going forward and Definitely, we don't want to go back. You know, we know that it's not possible to go back It is not worthy of us to go back also but we have to also learn from the mistakes that we have made in the past and That takes a little bit of courage or as well to stand up and say, you know Where have we gone wrong as a collective as individually definitely things were not right. Otherwise, we wouldn't be where we are So this is also an important thing. We don't want to go back But we need to look where we made the mistakes and we need to you know Go forward learning from those mistakes and you know going towards something more positive and holistic something more integral But that sense we got from the people who are who we talked to there were lots of people whom who we could Engage with apart from the you know the dream being and all that we did So we felt that this is this is a time, you know, this is I mean we have to act this is the time to act now and Of course how everybody understands action is very different, you know, and So that will be another whole we can open up that all those questions afterwards and we can see where we go together Next so this is the this is the basic structure of the of the talk today So first we start with the higher aims What I said like we have been looking at, you know, what has gone wrong and how do we interpret? What has happened in Orville in over the 50 55 years? Then we have some reflections on Orville planning We took planning as a topic because that's what David Omar and I can begin to understand like we are supposed to You know since your architects we feel that we can start with that topic. We would have some understanding of it But of course, this is can lead to other things and on other platforms and other other topics and themes as well And then we will have a small Juice break not a tea break I guess And a very short one and then we'll go into the method and then we'll have questions and answers And then we have some light refreshments for those who want to stay back and informally Interact, yeah, so we will we will take questions and answer But please during the presentation we just wish that there should be a flow So we will keep it without questions and answers during the presentation But we will like we always do we will make sure that all the questions are answered We don't have a time limit on that. Yeah so with this we go to the next line and to the higher aims and David Hello everybody So next slide please so Mona already mentioned About connecting to this vision where we can come together in the center and Next so this is a diagram that many of you might have seen Last August and we were trying to express somehow how we saw some of the Dynamics that are functioning or have been functioning also in the community since many years So I'm just going to reiterate that and I'm going to go a little bit more in detail As to how we perceive this this is obviously subjective from our part But then if we take this as a starting point it gives some clues as to how we might move forwards together Now interestingly The three that each circle represents a different value system value systems that we carry in ourselves on an individual level And value systems which operate on a collective level and they Can be captured also Using the human cycle from share of Indo As well as for instance what Ragu came with his analysis of Auroville where he was using the Mahabrata As an example and that particular process is based on spiral dynamics So there are three different systems, but they all correlate within this diagram. So for instance the blue circle Would represent kind of the traditional Systems that we see throughout the world. So it's almost like the classic cultural DNA in each country or nation or people So this this particular value system goes back thousands of years more or less to the beginning of city development share of Indo referred to this as the conventional age and that operating system for instance would suggest The positive sides of that is the classic governance framework. It provides law and order Give stability for society and in many ways That's actually what the Indian government and the country of India provides Auroville as a foundation for us to be here And it also represents many of the values that the Indian government itself holds Through the foundation and how that comes here. So when Ragu gave his presentation He was referring to that And saying that actually the GB and the foundation office are representing an aspect of that Now the orange one orange red is a More the rational rational age and of course this has only been around Collectively on the planet for a few hundred years, but it represents Let's say scientific development. It also represents very strongly The global economy So not only what we have to deal with economically within our but the economic forces that we're dealing with on a day-to-day basis So when you see all the development coming out of Quillipallium the development around Auroville That represents some of the forces that we're having to deal with on a day-to-day level As I say the positive aspects. It's very efficient. It's very logical But there is a dark there's kind of a shadow side to each of these the shadow side of this could be for instance it tends to be Very meritocratic which has a positive side in the sense that people get jobs Based on what they can do or Do people get jobs because they want to do the job, but they're actually not very good at it So the meritocratic has a positive side, but it also has a negative side because then within the society There are people who maybe can't do certain jobs and they feel left out and that's actually then where the green value system comes in This is what Shri Aurobindo was referring to as the subjective age probably been around for about a hundred years on the planet and That is a much more egalitarian value system Ecology environment is highly important in this value system and It's where people actually start on a collective level to get more in touch with the emotions and the psychological aspects of life But the downside of the green value system is actually it's looking for consensus It's looking for a consensus reality. It wants everybody agrees to everything and That we can see over the last years in Auroville has been one of the major problems The residents assembly in many ways tends to be hijacked by this apparent need to make Consensus decisions where then we never make a decision and we just go round and round and round in circles and Another aspect of green for instance is that the experience is more important than physical the material So being together has a value in and of itself But that drives the other two completely crazy because they're not actually then getting anywhere and moving forwards So these three systems Pretty much from the beginning from the foundation of Auroville Have been operating when you read the human cycle you get the impression that you move from one age to the next But what we're actually living today You can actually see these values coexisting at the same time and that's what's causing a lot of the problems It's very interesting that Probably the highlight of the high point of the green value system in the world was 1968 that was the era of the flower flower power But it was also of course the birth of Auroville so I found it fascinating that Everything came together in that moment and Auroville captured the tight geist of that moment Now you'll see that there are three small circles that are operating as well What was what I'm suggesting what we're suggesting is that pretty much anybody in Auroville at the moment Can find themselves Somewhere on that diagram that doesn't mean you're there all the time our center of gravity changes all the time We might operate differently if we sit in a group if we sit in a group of friends or if we're sitting in a context like this But basically these things are all happening, but the the small circles tend to be people who feel so passionately about that particular approach and they start pulling the whole community away from the center Okay, so Somebody the blue the small blue circle at the top Can be for instance if someone what I would call quote wars mother said this yeah, but mother said that Sure, I've been to said this oh, but sure. I've been to say that and we just get into this back and forth Rather than trying to actually come together and take the essence of those quotes and find out what was really behind them And as I already explained this whole idea with the consensus That can actually be that if someone if a somebody or people are feeling none of consensus is the only way to go And it has to be fully everybody has to fully agree. Otherwise. We're not going to do something So these these are not allowing a dialogue One of the negative aspects of blue is also it's our way or the highway. It's very black and white thinking And that's actually very difficult to deal with Because if it's either everybody agrees with blue or blue just walks away So this is actually what we've been experiencing for the last couple of years. This is where it gets even more complicated now next Just next See these just showing that this is a dance that's been going on over 30 years 40 years 50 years Where different powers within these are sort of struggling the next one they all have overlaps But there's a dance. It's a dance of these energies next one. So One thing I haven't mentioned yet is the center now the center is obviously Connected to all three circles So there are any activities that we've happened in Oroville over the last 50 years Which are trying to integrate These values are happening here in the center and And in most cases This dance of these circles always allows the center to evolve and allows the center to people to act from that central place But the more these energies pull us out It's kind of ripping the center apart. There's very little opportunity to actually act from that place And so over the years I would suggest that many many Orovillians have been able to act either individually from that central place doing their yoga day-to-day and Yet there are also many examples that we've had where various units service units people coming together for their various reasons It's like flowering of this central sort of integral focus Next but I'd like to highlight a few moments in our history where I actually have the feeling We actually came together as a community in that central space now at the first I Would say I wouldn't there and I'm sure there would be people here who might disagree with me But I would like to suggest that building the structure of the matrimandia was one of those moments that There was a task Another was still alive when it started and it's okay. We do this thing. We move forward and we build the structure and The structures it's interesting for an architectural point of view as an architect I've had the experience that when you're designing a building most people don't tend to disagree About the structure because they haven't really got much to say about it And they don't have the experience to question you too much as soon as the structures finished Everybody has an opinion about what the rest should look like and that's when we get into difficulties But building them building the structure. I would suggest the community came together These forces were united to try and create that Another example of two more examples. I think where the whole community came together Would have been Cyclone Tane in 2011 after the Cyclone It was the cleanup session People were coming together people were trying to get Oroville back on its feet And I met many many people at that time there. I was there and So many people said how can we do this that we don't lose this energy? How can we keep the sense of brotherhood and sisterhood that we can feel today and Then you could watch week after week after week as people went and started to take their old positions Go back to an old what the way we had been doing before And the other time we did this I would suggest is covered and the lockdowns So during that time I experienced the same connection the same sense of brotherhood and sisterhood In the community and everybody working together So these were moments unfortunately two of them Were only managed we only managed to do it because of crises So to two crises pushed us as a community to sent to go into that center ground and For a while very the hatchet very our disagreements and come together There are other examples for instance the tsunami Where I would say it was kind of going in that direction But Oroville some of our communities on the coast were obviously hit by the tsunami But I would suggest that Oroville wasn't quite hit in the same way But we still came together and it was a wonderful example of what Oroville was able to do for the buyer region So it was it was somewhat different, but I would suggest it also was everybody coming together in that space so the I'd say I'd like to suggest that the essence of what we're trying to present to you today Using this as a framework or as a background Is we're being asked to come here Consciously and actively without needed you can say today's a crisis Absolutely, but do we go do we use the The more that these circles on the outside pull us The more we just go into fight mode And that's necessary. There's a need there's a need To to balance somehow these forces, but at the same time There's an opportunity to act here in the center. I Give you what might seem a very strange example During the Second World War and from the UK during the Second World War Towards the end maybe there are 19th actually not even towards the end around 1943 There were members of the British government came together believing if they win What do we do then? They were visioning already 1942 1943 What do we do at the end of the war because they knew they also didn't want to go back to business as usual and how things were before and So once the war was over 1946 1947 1948 There was a radical transformation of society But it had been put in place in the last years of the Second World War already the National Health Service was created Pension schemes were created Across the board many many different things Britain was a completely new society After the war than it had been before the war so the seeds for that change Was sown during the conflict So we're suggesting the possibility That we could do something similar here in Oregon we don't know where it's going We don't know what the final result will be either with the conflict itself nor with what this central space might look like but we would also like to suggest that that's the whole point if you look back at Things for instance the Einstein said or the Buckminster Fuller was talking about radical transformation It comes from a place takes over and you it doesn't come from the old system you have to transform And you create a new paradigm that simply outmakes everything else that came before it outdated You can't get there directly from here. That's to be some magic involved And again, we'd like to suggest that if we're here as Oravillians as a wider community to do this collective yoga then maybe if we can Again use this as a as a framework which we can adjust we can discuss etc. But if we see the potential to come together in that center whilst The chaos is moving around us. Maybe both of those things that can happen at the same time next next if We can do this We can actually start to create a Different focus a different energy field in the center The center was more like the default position like people might be operating there But there wasn't the sense of the collective in that space, but if we can come together through different Methodologies different experiences to come into that central space as that grows It creates a dynamic of its own At the moment in this diagram still the forces are pulling out the orange one is primarily as I said the economy which has a actually fairly significant effect on us as a community The other represents Foundation GB etc. And this one is representing more the environmental side the communal side etc etc next But what we're hoping if that can grow then that pull from the outside Cannot ignore any more what's happening in the center that it creates a critical mass and suddenly That pull from out has to address what's happening in the center. It's like a call for action a call for response next and to sort of pinpoint or highlight where it might end that central point Will not ultimately overtake all the other circles because it needs to check some balances Those values don't disappear They will always be there and they're all in all of us all the time anyway. It's our choice where we're Deciding moment by moment to center ourselves so that that That would be a sort of point of status for a while Where then that can grow and you get the checks and balances with these others now The model that we're going to show at the end is going to elaborate on this even more the center Would theoretically then be the spiritual age From the human cycle That's where we're going. We're going to the spiritual age But that kind of sounds a little bit Highfalutin that kind of sounds a little bit out there and What we're suggesting is that there's actually a transitional space between Here today and that spiritual age otherwise it starts to sound a little bit like oh my god How are we gonna do that? That's just this huge big thing and it is But it's baby steps each time we do it we make one step and we're moving in that direction We know that that's what we're here for we're here to move in that direction We're still humble enough to not obviously say we're not there yet, and maybe we're not even there in our lifetimes Who knows but this model and what we're going to show afterwards as a process is Expressing some of those baby steps how we might come together as a community if we choose To move in that direction because this is a choice That the conflict that the crisis that we're facing today Because it's not an environmental crisis. It's a social crisis So we have the choice do we join sides of these circles pulling out or can we collectively? Decide to come into the center So that's primarily what we're talking about today in this presentation Next and they were to add that we still need those extreme. We still need that All those three sides in order to create the center. It's not that they disappear. I mentioned that Hello everyone Yeah, just before I start I feel I would like to acknowledge this moment in a way because Honestly, it was not so easy for us to come to the community at this moment and suggest Another community participatory process in our discussion. We felt it doesn't make any sense And we went to different members of the community and there was push because there are still two hundred three hundred five hundred Oravillians who would still say we have to keep trying But we have to acknowledge that it's not so easy to try to Suggest a community participatory process while There are a major segment in the community who feel that they can leave after spending decades Serving a project It's not easy To do that while There are those who also spend the kids of the life working on this project and they feel They might not find the maintenance To put bread on the table so It's not easy for us, but at the same time through Months of deliberations and discussions and with many members of the community We still felt okay. This is the last one we can throw in the middle of the pond and see If it's gonna go down we're gonna create some ripple effect and we honestly have no idea and today We are just trying This slide is the last slide of this part of the presentation the presentation of made of three parts and I felt the obliged in a way to take that one because I was the one in the law in the first if you remember more than a year back when we were presenting the first Dream-weaving initiative There was this slide and it was called our narrative and I remember at that time I was advocating that we create a process that proved for ourselves that we can Couldn't collaborate on a larger scale and achieve certain results So I felt obliged to speak about the narrative again Considering that we shifted on this issue We believe that yes, of course you always have the right to speak your own narrative and I think to some degree I don't think any collaborative process in order will can be considered as 100 success or 100 failure I think we succeeded to some good degree in Having this confidence feeling if we design a process. I'm talking about the dream weaving 2022 even if not implemented We have certain confidence if we have a well-designed process and a very good execution to a process We actually can collaborate on a larger scale than what we you on a large scale and achieve some results even if it's not gonna be used for some reason and I think we did some change because we okay, we have our narrative at least we believe in it but I don't believe you can convince any one of your side of the story if they don't want to and I also never believed there is one narrative that has all the truth. I Came I am Orvillean since 2017 when you come 2017 you will find different groups try try to make you join them So I actually listened to many narratives everyone in belief listen to us We have been suffering for 10 for decades or we have been Trying to convince people for decades that this is the path for Orville So I listened to different narratives and it is very hard to say there is one narrative that carry all the truth But our support for the general narrative of the majority of the reason assembly Was and is mostly because we feel it has been completely sidelined Yeah, it's not that I never ever believed that there is one narrative had all the truth, but it's not fair That the narrative that is this said by many members of the community is not listened to right, so so but yet To continuously go into this loop of my narrative your narrative his narrative their narrative and the mind is so intelligent And it can always create all rational arguments for narratives, right I Don't I I think we shifted on on this and the aim of this new process. We are trying to suggest is not Anymore the narrative it's and this is maybe explanation of all the the the presentation you have just seen It's to shift to transformations Because there is no point. I am not saying you cannot keep speaking up your narrative You keep because you have the right to do that Just speaking your narrative even if no one is gonna listen to you means I have the right to have my voice But at the end what will change if collectively there is a decision to Evaluate and see what can we do to create a positive? change The word transformation is very big transformation Small changes might lead to that so that's the aim of the presentation today is This is the theme to propose a new methodology Like the previous time but this time with a different aim The main theme is not anymore the narrative even if it could help with that The main aim is to push for something more significant and we have no idea if this is possible or not But we are still gonna try we Thank you. We get a rest because this is the end of this part to the next part is a little heavy so It's a little heavy because it's about planning so Two or three minutes stretch or meditate Just to give you an idea We made the first draft on the reflections on orbit planning and we spent The first draft were explained in two hours, so we decided to really cut it down Into few points and try to simplify as much as we can and it still might be a little heavy So this is not a lecture on planning. We might When we were doing this presentation David Amona said Omar Why don't we don't you don't you prepare something for the future on planning in general to give like an o1 o01 understanding of some issues of Urban design urban planning city forum in regards to orbit But this is few reflections that might help understand the situation just from a certain point next so the first The first thing I would like to say about planners They are not exactly sure what they are doing like how to say that I'm sorry How to say that what I what I have learned and from major Urban planning theorists somebody who directly taught with given Lynch one of the most major planners He say when we look at the city and try to find different theories how different cities taking different shapes It is so We don't have a solid theory Like these are the theories of sciences and they are more solid and these are the Theories of social sciences and they are less solid and then these are the theories of planning and they are a bit dispersed And there is no one clear theory that define how cities take the shapes they take so it's not an easy subject and This idea that there is a formula in which it's so clear How to make a living environment that it is good for human beings ask yourself When was the last time you have been in a modern city in which it felt healthy? Right, so they are done by planners Some of them done by the best planners in the world so Because there is not one single formula and one clear solid theory that define What would be a healthy living environment built living environment? it's not that easy and Why it is so difficult because it's a very long field like whatever is designed Today it take few hundred years until you discover Its results how people reacted to it so it's designed and planned But then it keeps transforming transforming cities keeps transforming and you can see how people reacted to this initial idea So the planners who designed not necessarily are the planners who can learn from it and Then suddenly new technology comes cars. Oh My god, and you start from being beginning again because it has changed everything Or cars has been cancelled because we find a new different mobility systems. So it's not an easy field and That's why it might be actually Interesting to work on a project that tried to investigate the built environment in relation to Ecology in relation to sociology in relation to people needs What kind of processes could lead to that? So it's actually a very interesting opportunity if we are clear that this is the project Now when it comes to planning theory again when we did that diagram at the beginning the first sketch was about a Trial we work as a think tank as much before we try to organize any process We try to investigate our understanding of the situation. So the process comes from this understanding So the first sketch was about if trying to understand people different positions From the built environment and this is when these three circles came So we said those who believe in occult qualities for certain geometry There are in the blue those who believe in a very rational process planning process that has to go through these Mechanics through this mechanism in the red and those who believe Who want to value most the relation between the ecosystem and the built environment? Art would be more in the in the in the green and and the best city that we could imagine or we cannot yet imagine Or the best built environment is somewhere in the middle that has the qualities of all of them And if we understand that this could be the challenge Maybe we We feel I personally I feel it's exciting or it's interesting to try or it's invigorating or it's instead of What we have been what the community have been doing for decades maybe so so so it actually comes from normative theory in Planning in planning. There are three. This is very simple Over simplified in planning. There are three main theories decision theory and it's the theory that deals how decisions are made municipality how decisions are made is it top-down is it When it is top-down and when it is more Community-based and and when it's somewhere in the middle The other theory is functional theory and functional theory deals with the Small forces that affect everything This time we had to do this It's the stories the small stories that it's a city or the ecology of humans the social Ecology that different groups and which group managed to achieve what and the one ignored Theory in planning is the one I think we need most Normative theory which are rarely taught and It is about the relation between values and city form and Have been amazing theoreticians of planning who have been calling that this has to come very strong Otherwise we keep doing cities in the way we do and the question is Every society there are general major values That govern a society or has some influence of society and city form is Very much impacted by this so if the governing if if a society has this value of discipline You will find the city will take certain form or the society believe in a hierarchy of a priesthood You will find the temples of the at the end of the road There is these pyramids in in Inca right and if society is very much into practicality You will find the grid at system for fast development maybe in York And if you find a society that is very much Focused on the relation between nature and city form you will find some garden city movement Right so so and and this is when the three normative city city as a machine the practical City as the cosmic mall city city as a way to connect to divinity the cosmic mall city and the organic naturalist model So this is just a very quick understanding and we could go again and again for this But some basic understanding could help us when we define What do we want to achieve and come to this point that maybe we can achieve all of them because everyone has some quality? Then maybe we are up to something next So this is a little tough and I am coming we are coming We were really thinking should we go with this or not and of course we decided to come to you with this and let's see It's a trial from us to define not the symptoms, but we go to the The origin of the divide Because if you have that challenge that I have explained before how to go to this white space in the middle It's joyful, but where is the divide because we see one side who say build the system build the city Just build the city don't think don't discuss don't do anything build the city, right? And we have another side who say Proper planning we want proper planning We are okay building the city. We just want proper planning So it's really confusing to me because if I take that line in the middle and I put through I have solved the overall problem, right? Build the city through proper planning But then why it's not that easy? Because the fair we take people it's not that simple It's not that those who are build this are saying build the city only mean build the city And it is not that those who are saying proper planning mean proper planning Otherwise it hasn't it would have not been a problem at all. There's something else and I'm sorry, but we will try to see our interpretation because let's see if it's gonna it's gonna sync with you or not next So the missing thing is that? The side that it is saying build the city cannot do proper planning because In many cases they are anti-planning for a reason So they are not interested in proper planning and the side that it is saying proper planning proper planning Proper planning has proven in a way Sentiment of being anti-urban physically So that's that's I see this as a huge problem. That's why it's not easy to solve how to explain this We'll try to explain and even prove it a little bit and the question is how can we call for city development where I'm type-planning That's see from here. We are dividing this screen into two because we want to speak to every side alone How Anti-planning because there is a certain feeling that if you go with the planners They are gonna dilute The Concept that only you understand So only us can build it when we do not know how to build it and we do not understand what the city means And we don't understand the processes that leads to a city and we do not know much about planning But we are the one who understand and that's why we are not interested in any planning processes Because We it takes maybe That from us that we are the one who are doing it But the side who's saying Let's do proper planning and at the same time have been developing different parts in Orville in a way that it is clearly Anti-urban and we'll show in maps The question to them, how could you call for proper? urban planning while showing science of being anti-urban Anti-urban means you can you don't lie and I know why I have friends on the two sides This side you say we do not trust the planners They are gonna dilute the concept this site say when was the last time you have been in a city that was healthy We don't want that because it's unhealthy and then and it's a cycle because Any time those push for that city with no planning they do a bad quality road So that side would say look we that's the city Urban planning is awful So it keeps going in cycle like this So from here we'll try to a little bit explain this side and then explain this side And let's hope it would be acceptable, and I will still have people to talk to me tomorrow Okay next so This is the one I'm gonna run through now on the left side. I've given a Number of presentations over the years mostly to the Yucca program So if anybody here has been on the Yucca program, they may have seen this already But in this particular context we'd like to just run through the designs that Roger made for Oroville in the early days and To show the process that they went through to get to the galaxy so And relate it actually to the circles. So here is what usually is referred to as the grid model And it was pretty much dismissed very early on very quickly But it's actually a very good example of that orange red circle. It's very rational The grid for ease of movement Very easy relatively easy to plan out do the infrastructure There's not you might discuss exactly what types of pipes you want or how wide the road should be but there's actually not From a planning perspective. It's not massively complicated Next next So from there the next design was what is called the nebula model. It's a nebula like an exploding star the road system is now in the shape of another symbol and You start to get a sense of something of the nature of the matrimandia at the center it still Has a rationality to it from that orange red, but this is then Where we start to see that focus that cosmic connection that Omar was talking about so it's kind of including the blue the blue Value system saying okay, we everything all the roads kind of focus it They don't always go straight the way through but do you have that center point? With the radials going out next and this one is either called the yin yang model or the macro model and here It's just before this is the one just before the galaxy model We already start to see the layers of complexity coming through so it you can't say it's just simply rational Or it's got the code. It's got the cosmic in the center. It has a rationality to it You can see the road system very clearly to divide it nicely start to see these very large structures Which of course eventually become the lines of force So I would say I would suggest looking at it from the model. We've been discussing the framework We've been discussing this was kind of the first attempt to really start to integrate The different aspects of those three circles the different value systems of those three circles So again Roger comes and he presents this to the mother They have whatever discussion obviously I wasn't there and I know if anybody here was there next one We don't know exactly what look how the conversation went But what's interesting for me as an architect and someone who's interested in design the flow of the Design that you go through if I work with a client And I see a design from the beginning and the interactions and the feedback I get from the client and you can start to see how the final design emerged and where the values are coming from so The analysis of how you move through those designs This has a certain culmination of a process. It's a culmination of a process Which is trying to integrate the qualities of all the earlier ones And I would like to suggest that this is actually Centred in that in those three circles in that white center You can even see the integration exactly how Omar was describing Through the flow of those models the integration of the green what we were calling during the dream weaving process the green blue Infrastructure that's the collection of rainwater the flowing of the water Obviously the ecological aspect with the forests farm whatever it might be and how that actually starts to link through as Compared to the earlier models So there's also a lot more complexity in this And one point I like to make when I talk about this model as compared to the others is that I Kind of always I have this idea that mother had a little twinkler in her eye when she said yes to this because it's the complexity in this is almost overwhelming and The level of connection between the buildings gives A power and a strength to the design But it's also the challenge to get architects to work together and design spaces which link And I can highlight that with an example because many years of many years ago Working with one of the oral architects where the dream captures at that time We're trying to come up with ideas on the crown which led to the crown ways Where we were talking about how to create this and what kind of guidelines could we create that actually make the buildings join together And which could give us covered arcades through the monsoon and in the day in the midday Sun and The architect I was speaking to said no, no, no, we can't do that. We can't do that here And I was like well, why can't we do that here? It's actually if you look at the galaxy model That's a core principle of model. No, no, all of your architects aren't capable of doing that That was the answer I got I'm like well, okay, but maybe we could try maybe that would be a goal But it was a very interesting answer because it for me it Takes us backwards Like it's it's it's not addressing the qualities of this or the potential for this Mona was using a word earlier about decoding. I Realize it's very difficult for people who may not have a design background but as a designer The intricacy The intricacies of this the in the intricacy of the Form and how the spaces relate to each other is a is a fascinating challenge. It's an amazing challenge and I Think we if we can take this on board and really See the qualities of those three circles and what we want to bring to it I think a lot of people fear when they see this I talk about the blue-green infrastructure But a lot of people go oh my god. Yeah, but look how much white there is look how much building there is Well, again, that's a question of interpretation. This is a massing model So it's not designed. This is not designed to be inflated with a bicycle pump to one-to-one scale Where every single one of those things is a building it can also be white could be hard landscaping It could be just covered open spaces. It could be all kinds of different things. It's just a question of the limitation of our imagination next so this is my slide Because I love I I kind of discovered at some point and I think many others may have before me But as an architect, it is very interesting for me when I realized that each of the the matrimon there is like a code for us and Matrimon there has this four X's and Each of them represent The four aspects of the mother so each one of them mother has actually given this Color to each of this like maha Kali is red Maha Saraswati's blue. My sure is yellow and maha Lakshmi is this violet pink And she gave a form for each of this so when you enter the matrimon there And you each of these gates the main main entrances have that form and that shape and that color And Actually, it makes and also we have the four four parks which are named after these four four aspects of the mother So like David was saying it's it's it's the code I feel that some there's so many things like this which we have which we can you know work upon which can We can work collectively to kind of research on and bring these different layers together in the galaxy I also feel like This is a model which we can only realize if we collaborate I don't think this is a model we can do if we do individually anything So I feel I mean we think that this is the phase now which are always going through we are 55 56 years old and maybe there is time to change because all of his history demanded something We demand we demanded that we grew, you know piecemeal by piecemeal We had trees and we had to look after land and we had to build individually all that happened and it's all great It developed many different resources within the community and it grew all of our you know Beings through that experience and process but perhaps it is time now to move on and how to Merge this with all the knowledge that we have gained, you know And what is happening in the world as well because we cannot you know have a blind eye to what is happening around So India is changing the world is changing the surroundings are changing and we need to look at this and we need to Decorate this somehow that can bring us together That is the whole idea, you know, so we we think that this is a possibility We we don't have all the answers, but we think if we research enough on this with an open mind We could perhaps get there together and get everybody on board So this is one of the ideas one of the slides, but I'm sure there's more to be said on other Next so this is on the left-hand side So the point is we've just reached a sort of culmination which actually theoretically could be quite good But Omar was describing why each side of this for some reason doesn't work So what we're looking at today. This is a superimposition of the master plan road system on the galaxy model and What if you keep in mind the images you just saw going from the grid model to the nebula to the macro and The macro model and then this one the galaxy model This diagram if you take it out of context and you just say we're just going to build this and you don't do the necessary investigation beforehand You will be going back to a very rational very orange approach Which has been tried again and again and again throughout the last hundred two hundred years and It will actually block Theoretically a lot of the developments that would bring it into that central space into that white space into that Progress more progressive Model that we're looking for so This is kind of just the culmination of that left-hand side to it's to show When the side that is saying, okay, we want the city But we're not going to do the planning necessary we will What I've been trying to point out since years is that by using this approach the very galaxy that they claim to want to build Will not manifest They're cutting corners and so they'll lose the very thing that they claim to want to build So what we're trying to show how each side won't get to the goal and then we're going to propose an alternative Yeah, in other words, it is also like, you know it when you act from a place of fear Because people who love the galaxy so much. They're afraid to lose it. You know, they're afraid. It's too late We're losing it. Okay. Let's just do what we can now and in that place of fear You start acting in a way that you actually lose the thing that you want to save Yeah, so that's very important It's also it has a psychological aspect to it and therefore all these Stop-cap solutions is quick actions is this idea that you know, we will do something and it'll be you know Redone after and you know, we'll make it okay after of course everything's possible We can redo everything. Is it the most efficient way? Is it the way we mother would have liked us to work? We don't know but we can we can definitely say we can't limp along As a society, it's not help healthy for us. It's not helpful for us next Yeah, so we will go to the other side and try to give I try to say it very quickly Hoping that no one noticed that I have said that next So Just to make my case very clear about the issue of is there is an anti-urban sentiment or not I rest my case If the number of two thousand Three thousand I think that picture was when it was around two thousand two thousand two hundred something like this Develop in that area and it looks like this Any planner any designer of city in his will feel okay, maybe there is some Sentiments against urban life it would feel like that now are there reasons for that? We were discussing this somebody told me yeah, but we did not buy all the lands at that time We were developing while buying the lands and we needed to spread to evolve to develop the land and we needed to spread to Protect the land and we needed to spread to protect the soil and all of this actually makes lots of sense So our question is not if it made sense or not our question can this model continue? So we in our discussion we concluded actually this model may be made sense And it's maybe the model that saved Orville or made it in the way it is today Maybe a shift needed a little bit earlier than now. Maybe that's our feeling Maybe 20 years back or something like this some shift or somebody should have came and said other development models could have could help this place next like Crownways for instance, so Yeah, so so studies like this I think are very useful Because they map the ground reality and maybe here I could note to what David said about the final galaxy It'll present a holistic planning to me it represents holistic planning when grounded When it also deals with all the situation on the ground and it's a conceptual model that still need to go through a process Planning while maintaining what it is not losing that but to deal with the intricacies of the situation I think they're very useful the only thing if that studies like this start to be used to give the impression Or there is no place to build Because we have all of these watersheds and water systems and it is so easy to protect nature if you do not engage Keep the space But what would be amazing if you still can go urban and accept that challenge and At the same time respect the natural systems and that's not easy. That's very difficult So these kind of studies could be useful, but could also create wrong impressions sometimes next So I will go very quickly to try to see to try just to explain to everyone the kind model of development that happened in Orville Let's imagine that this is a road. This is the path. This is the path. There is lands that has been organized ABC DE and They are really big lands each one is 20 acres 30 acres and then next The land has some path is that goes in between Because B for example doesn't have a connection. So there are some path is that goes in between But then each land very big land is given to one to develop it So let's imagine land a is given to one architect land B is given to a steward land C is given to another architect a Steward and another architect and each one become responsible in developing his land It's the same system that happens in capitalist city in which you have a big land and you're given to a developer So the steward to the architect in that case actually almost take the role of the developer Not the traditional role of the architect who get a project from a developer or a municipality But the land is so big because in typical cities the developer has the financial capacities to develop it all But in that case the architect the steward doesn't have that capacity. So what happened next? You develop Whether you like or not in a very dispersed way because the land is very big and And and he will the one who is responsible and this will Build this building and then after ten years this one and maybe after ten years and then he will create a cult he Sucked she will create a cult said another one will be able to only build one building another one But because everyone is working on a very big land then the model of development inevitably Whether you like or not create the situation that we have seen But as we try to explain that happened for a reason because you did protect all of this land Which was needed, but if you want to create but that is still a little bit anti-urban sentiment And it is so easy to say I'm protecting nature because nature is left And there are lots of watershed areas and there are lots places to to have trees But you did not take the challenge you have actually ignored the challenge Because it's so easy to do something environmental if you develop in such a dispersed way and I am I'm feeling I am coming to the To the Ari and saying we should that's the place If we have something to say to each other, that's the place we come to each other and say it and This is what we are doing that there I think maybe some time back somebody should have challenged this and try to find another model of development that Brings people because remember if this place if we are all about collectivism Everybody say collective right? Let's make decisions collectively Can collectivism manifest through separation? Because when you do this you will end up with walls between these groups So because another model could be that you select a smaller place and you select five six Architects and stewards and create a transitional space in between and try to design that transitional space first and try to create some development some architecture of certain That that manifest a collective life, right? So so we are a bit critical of that system even while we understand why it is and We are simply calling for a process that challenge this That's what we may be one of the reasons we are coming today is to call for processes that challenge the two sides Yeah, next Another one if you have a social cultural commerce street and You make buildings that make the sitbacks. They don't want to come to the street You know what how to make a walkable street three simple conditions one It feels you feel included in the street like the in the space feels holding you to Active edges So when you are walking on the ground level, there are functions that you can use as the user of this place three Climatically acceptable, so you cannot for example in Cold climate to have overly shaded place like in London with air coming You have to avoid that, but if you are in tropical or semi tropical you cannot have too much of a white street with let's say for example Pre-fabricated concrete slabs and And not much softscape, right? So you cannot walk in that place right, so so but what we did here is Also, not great because the kind of development that we pushed for is also giving a sense of Anti-urban because the buildings go too far from the edge of the street So there's no active edges on the street. Sometimes there are walls on the street Sometimes you open the door on the side instead on front of the street Sometimes you have functions on the side of the street, but at the same time these functions are not for the public It's functions that are designed for somebody to come from outside and park the car So you end up not having as livable street and the buildings try as much as they can not to be in front of each other So this is again when if anybody from outside Orville comes and walk in a street like this He say there is an anti-urban sentiment. It's it's very difficult to avoid Anybody saying that so so when so so we have a next next so we have on one side Those who are mechanizing a concept That actually have a soul and can develop and it has simply transformed into Streets and pipes and infrastructure and that's it and it's not livable and you cannot walk in it and On the other side, there is some sentiment of an anti-urban and with this we say can we just reverse? We so so we come and say dear friends on that side City development through holistic planning and our friend on that side. We say holistic planning, but for city Development because that's the challenge and it can happen gradually, but that's the challenge And that's it. Thank you. Yeah, next Running short of time So yeah, it basically says the same that we have to bring the concept and the context through together and The concept I guess all of us know like we have this very strong concept But we don't know how to ground it and we have very strong context We know we have now we know what the weather is the climate is the people that culture the soil the you know Forest we know the context But we don't know how to bring these two together and there's one very big thing that We are aware of all these issues, but we can't put everything on the slides It's one what is what we have not really been able to handle very very lower will is the bio region and I think This is this is a big topic that we need to deal with very urgently And we're quite at a loss how to how to go about it because even if you see today Just look around you How many people are there here from the bio region so-called our Tamil, you know brothers and sisters How many Indians are there? It's just not going to work like this Not anymore. Maybe it was used to work once upon a time This is not going to work because not only as India changed and the world is changing but because We have we are we're not equally distributed We haven't found ways and to address this in a way that will make everybody comfortable And I don't know we don't have solutions But it looks like forums like this. It's not everybody's cup of tea It's not everybody's place, you know, not everybody wants to talk in these kind of forums So we have to find different ways of dealing with all this and of course economy is a big part It's not that we are ignoring all these things, but we need to look at this We have people within our will who are good at this who are capable of handling this But we are they're not coming forward We haven't made space for them and we haven't made the right way of dealing with this kind of issue So context is very very important because we are we landed in Tamil Nadu for a reason and we cannot you know Ignore that so we need to work on all of this together and we are acutely aware of this We don't have solutions But really we need to look at this as a society together. It's high time that we do it, you know So that was the important but next We will close this here because it's actually taking quite some time and we cancelled few slides We'll bring the most important in the next one while we are directly going to the method Why so we can keep people still alive with us. Yeah We know it's a bit heavy and it's even heavy for us. So we go for tea break and come in Tim this never happened before Okay, so I go Okay, so Yeah, just okay, so the the When we were looking how to go to that to that space between the concept and the context and how to encourage some kind of solution we believe the way is to expand the area of investigation and That simply means what to us we see one side I'm talking about the the space for discussion We have one side who is saying the width of discussion is no discussion Done right built The other side Speak about planning as if it is an overly physical only physical So you will find the difficult typical topics comes natural water systems ecological system by by region is Has some some social economic aspect and and then you find tools mobility issues You find tools like development priorities land uses and all of this is very useful very important But also could be seen as some of the mechanical systems that exist in education today that make a nice planning to the degree that makes cities soulless in a way and We are suggesting and then when I this is these are the topics I have always heard since I came to Orville in any kind of meeting we are discussing these issues But then when you open the topics and I started trying to fill the topics that they didn't hear in discussed And I came up when we found this next and and we found things like What is the meaning of a city? What is the city? What is what are the circumstances of the city? What what what does spatial justice mean? What's the relation between values and urban form? What is the relation between urban fabric and experience? What's the relation between incremental and organic? Priorities and sequence are not necessarily the same and densities block sizes Connectivities are very major important issue in planning and I am like how come it was really surprising to me How come there is a project of a built environment and nobody came and say What's the meaning of a city in human history and civilization civilizations start with cities ends with cities cities are suffocating But many ideas come from cities Lots of it's it's a it's a phenomenon of intensity Think about this way everything bad is accentuated Everything good many things good accentuated economy many opportunities Ideas people meet and generate ideas Pollution lots of pollution so but have we ever discussed because if we fully understand this we might start coming with some Principles what we want to achieve what we don't want to achieve right and and then the circumstances of the city oh We might discover that the circumstances of to achieve city is not here Have you thought of that? Because if you have a place in which you are getting people through screening The natural development does not happen Typically if you have a place with certain attraction spiritual social economic and people would come if they want from Pondicherry of Chennai I promise you there will be a city in a few years Because there are many attractions here But if you go through a screening process is a different story and it might take a longer time Does it mean you give up on a project? It means you Understand where you are and you try to take the right steps to achieve a situation in which natural development would happen Yeah, so maybe it's a it's a community educational campus But there is a plan that in certain number of years It has the capacity to become to go through the natural development, right? This is the natural process otherwise anything imposed usually doesn't work Yeah in planning ask ask Anybody who has all the capacity to build everything and and see what happened after that Special justice is very important topic and I'm so surprised it's never discussed in Orville because the same situation that we have described of Big land giving to very small number of stewards and naturally when people spend their life developing a space they feel Right and They feel I am only get those who I trust and those who I trust could end up being friends and family Right, so it's natural. It's natural. We're human beings So if if if planning is about trying to achieve something like special justice You are developing the policies to solve this problem You recognize this problem and you try to achieve it and I have seen cases in which when you only think of ecology You make very bad decisions. This is a watershed area. Oh, this is an area of high water infiltration So I'm gonna do in a very big space house very small number of houses on this very big land And that would mean it will be surrounded by walls and that order of separation And that means that the nature in this place is only for eight houses but if you think about special justice you might say I'm gonna have Concentration around it and I'm gonna keep that space public Even if I need water in for infiltration at that moment Until there is a gradual plan even water experts. I was speaking to Julio and he say Water surface management to him is the answer. So gradually you might go to that and have density in this place But to use only the ecological argument To practically Transform land into private or at least used privately is very Limited so we are also dealing with limited versions of planning But but then it gets exaggerated. That's the problem So I that the problem that we are dealing with today in Orville is that it's neither that nor this guys It's so so there is territorialism. I believe there is I came to oral 2015 as an year 14 as a as a Newcomer or as a volunteer. I sense some territorialism But but it gets exaggerated to landlords. I don't think you understand Whoever has said that doesn't understand the exact meaning of landlords It's much bigger than than anything you can imagine in Orville or you see some racial Insensibility I have seen a little bit of that and then suddenly it's racism So but what is our part is not to let that happen by? See the origin of the problem the rest of it realism. Let's deal with that What kind of planning policies could help with that next? Skipping some slides since we are late Shall we skip some I think we can go we will be repeating Yeah, this you know, we basically saying we need to do all of this together next Next it has to be unified around a vision next and we need this this is important We need empathy respect peace and purpose if we want to you know, if you want to achieve this together We need all of this we need internal expertise. We need external expertise. We need collective participation These are some of the adjectives that need but I think you've got the overview next and We have to transform it's now is the time from campus to city and it needs certain, you know Certain things in place like it has to be diverse international spiritual. We are there We are there, but we have to make this step We have to decide that we want to you know become from a campus to a city and we have to decide it collectively And this is the struggle all the time Next it should be the same but Peter yeah, let's we'll come to it question and answers. I know where you're coming from. Thanks. Okay skip this All right, let's go next okay, I thought I Have no idea. How do you have this capacity to concentrate through all of this? I think I think he wants the tea But anyway, so okay, so now we go to the method next So basically, I think you have seen me before representing diagrams like this In the previous presentation so I in my defense if you see me speaking about bubbles and circles that doesn't make any sense to you In my defend in our defense. You have seen it working before right? So you have seen these bubbles leads to some kind of a process that works But the the idea for us is that This time because we said it's not any more The process we are suggesting the method we are suggesting is not any more architects professionals or Anchored around or surrounded around that because at the end if it's only that It means put it in the shelf and we did not achieve anything or right But if it is a whole community process because we said the aim is not the narrative anymore But social transformation and we have no idea to which degree it will attract But but but if it is a community process, so even if it is ignored it has achieved something Right, it has achieved something for the collective. So we are proposing four projects simultaneously and A connection between the four projects. So the idea is that We learn instead of doing Small things separately is that we learn to do small things that works together to achieve something together And we are trying to show the method for this and it's not only that we are showing the diagrams We actually went through a process of finding the holders for each project So in which we it's almost ready to lunch So the first one I Managed to convince first David to get back to the dream-catching and Then Mona offered to give lots of support for this So both will be the holders for this and the idea is we are trying to solve the blocks What are the blocks if there is a Disagreement about the interpretation of the vision and any time an external consultants come to order and say where's the brief Do you have a brief? Do you have a written vision? Breathe is not is not an easy job, right? And there are elements of the brief that will have all the technical studies But there are elements of the brief that will also have the vision as written by Roger or the text coming from the beginning of Orville basically and and then but then with a very interesting question that any kind of Expert would come and ask would be But what the people living in the place see? How do they see I at the experience of a yogic city, right? And we think the best tool to do that is the dream-catching because people are Regularly coming so the dots representing people regularly coming at a certain time 6 a.m. In the morning some place on the roof or 6 30 p.m. Please somewhere and and there are few holders the red dots who are writing the notes who are guiding the discussion and the question will be The experience you as a resident of this place the values What are the values and how do you see if you want to walk on the crown and you want What the kind of experience you want I want to walk on the crown and suddenly two minutes I'm in the forest I want to walk in the crown but see the matrimonial and a half a pass to the matrimonial So so if if this process leads to the community agreeing on the kind of experience they want and how what makes this place special That's already we have taken one block out It's like aligning the vision together Next or our interpretation Next is the the idea of a client buddy again I remember when I went through the story of dosi dosi came toward of it 2008 and he ended up leaving 2015 and Somebody told me one of the last thing that dosi said I do not know who to talk to I cannot work I could do not know who to talk to and and this is we try to build a project how to solve this problem and The idea is to build some kind of a representative body that goes through a Humbling educational process to be ready to do that and that body is very diverse So the first suggestion of the suggestion of that body is that will be around 30 Randomly selected that go through the the Educational process. So it's kind of a model of the citizen assembly that I think you are all aware of but maybe 10 focus group who are selected to represent different directions in Oroville and 10 experts who are very much needed for the discussion But this is our initial suggestion now I want to say this phrase this in the right way and David can correct me We have an initial Interest from the CA team to possibly hold this you can correct me if I'm wrong So so and and that means if the system is basically based on Whoever is holding is deciding So so again, I think Here is it is it's a moment of handing a stick in a way because there is a certain belief that if there is too much The dream we've a weaving team has to decide it's not great for the community is actually we should give the opposite model of the David and Mona are here and whoever decide are the holders of this project Yeah, so how it shaped and how it's gonna win is gonna start and Next dream weaving We have discussed we have recently met the idea was next generation of Oroville architects So are still fresh and has the energy can hold The next dream weaving sessions and When they are done they hand the stick to the next group to hold so we got As you know that the moving conception means group of architects three four five six With experts who are in the background here supporting them And they work on a project and we even have suggested three possible projects So they are always bringing ideas to the process. So all of this you see as a holistic process that can work together They're bringing certain ideas. They are bringing the Collective wisdom of a society. They are bringing the ideas and try to align how we work together How no, how do we interpret? The vision which is part of the bereave is not the whole brief. Yeah, we are not also It's not only us. We decide everything there Origins for the idea that are there and the text should be there So what so we have radica? Shivangi and Henrik here accepted to take that Responsibility and become the next organizers of the next dream weaving sessions next and The two projects that are suggested are one in any cell that is the center and the membrane and The center let's say for example this diagram representing in that case the crown and The membrane represents the boundary conditions of Orville and We are we I personally so worried about the boundary conditions of Orville You have no idea and I am getting news right and left of With whoever is buying lands around Orville is The whole project. I don't think the project is so endangered by anything happening here Cities are built and then cities are transformed over hundreds of years. No one can control that mistakes can be corrected But if that street 30 meters are cut here and shops right and left like the shops you see from the road from Quila Palayam going to Orville It's not gonna be easy to correct because the moment you are gonna do that The real estate value will explode everywhere and It you will be in a situation that it is extremely difficult to correct what would happen You will always end up with shops around with whatever quality and Then you will end up feeling that they are creating some kind of Pressure on whatever is happening here to the degree that you might go and try to create a buffer zone So it's just a simple expectation that it's a step that could lead to shrinking the size of the hole I wonder of those who are making these decisions are aware of what they are doing because Simple cut of 30 meter and I do not know from where I heard it There is a decision like this, but I'm not even sure because from where this comes They say from the prospective master plan. I went to the prospective master plan the prospective master plan says Suggested 30 meter and why the prospective master plan say suggested and not 30 meter the outer ring Because it's a prospective master plan. It's not a master plan prospective master plans are documents that are trying to define a direction and they are not so specific They usually develop to a master plan or a development plan depending on different systems And then they go to DDPs Right. So so so if you come and say it is suggested 30, so I'm gonna cut 30 and This could lead to a situation of commercialism around it's gonna affect everyone So so we want to encourage architects to work on this and this is a hell of a study and very difficult And I do not know if we can do it without external experts helping us, but at least we can give it a try and start next So we suggested to the architects three possibilities next No Yeah, the the first possibility is to work on the whole boundary conditions and try to find solutions for this because in Few a decade or maybe a few decades. I do not know it will it's detrimental to this project But another way is to select part and try to give an example Acupuncture the idea of acupuncture instead of we don't have the capacity to study at all We are just gonna give an example of transition here and three is to go to crown transformation meaning Cities developed through first design and then transformation process and say how this one they could transform into Humanistic walkable Street simple We give it to the architects who will manage this with an emphasis if we can do one That will be crucial if we can start But it's their decision again We insist on this model of those who are managing each group are the deciders not us next The fourth one and I meet few people and consulted them about it, and I'm very excited about this is that starting a self education program About you have seen all the issues of planning that I have mentioned and the spaces in between and All the topics that has never been discussed before and I believe in self education. I Have learned I have spent lots of time in university and the one thing I have learned is the post of how to teach you How to be able to teach yourself? that's the one big thing you learn and and I believe the yes no one can study to become a Planner like or somebody who understand the city It's life-long investigation, but you can study a topic and Have some sense of it right and exchange. So the idea is to create groups of three to fives and The to give a topics like what is special justice? What is the city? What's the meaning of city and give some resources and see? Create groups of the community. This is a project for the layman So this was for the architects this is Model of maybe citizen assembly. This is Whoever wants to come but this is especially for the layman who are interested in investigating certain topics and planning and The idea how can a community be very much part of the planning or design process? Without education or without going through the self-education process because you always end up with people talking about what they don't know And that's a little bit not useful for a good discussion, right? So so so we will select different topics and those who organize it Will organize the process in which the idea is you are with three You are with five and you have these sources and you go if you are interested try to be part of a Collective process in which you learn about this topic and maybe in two three months You come and there is one day presentation and you present what you have learned to the community if you want So it becomes exchange So we are more lady and maybe but we are not expecting all to start together We actually expect this is not at the moment so urgent and we expect if these start and especially this and this They could be the first educational process that could help this happen So they are gonna start in different times those who have committed or have Wanting to help us do this are We there is something called the multidisciplinary group, and I hope one day soon They will present themselves and they present what they are doing Dan and Julio are representing this group and then there is that we feel the Delta group has certain Experience with creating groups that can work together So Natasha Is representing this group and she will be part of this effort and then Tanisha Presenting the youth of Auroville and then newcomers So we have a team of four who are willing also to take the responsibility and feel free to just contact them directly In in while we are having snacks after to to if you are interested in joining this project now These are four project that Either they are gonna happen or not. We still will see it depends on people participation at the end But how they are connected next So we are trying to devise a system of connecting tissue So we say okay How can four projects happen at the same time and there is a body and we were thinking about teams a team of five Ten who are their job is almost we have the explanation of bees They go from this group listen They go from this group listen they go from this group and they feel oh there is an amazing idea that came through that dream-catching Process and it can go and be given to the architects to the architects take it to their proposals Or there are something here in the education that could be should be brought to the Those who are doing dream-catching so and we are still it's still in the process of building that Connecting tissue, but the idea is that we are devising a mechanism in which these groups Have certain mechanism to create that connecting So there is a certain selection process that happens through the first month the first tumor month of Representative to create that team and that team becomes their Responsibility is to connect these projects to achieve something together So it's not at the end. We need also something practical to come out of this Something yeah, so or a few things like a written brief proposals for the edge some conclusions about What is what this vision represents to us and a body that can be part of decision-making's? next and Here I finish my last so this is the the last question for us is More often, I do not know if you notice this or not. We are trying to use planning to also suggest systems that could inspire Governance it just that we do not feel so confident to go directly to governance because it's not our area but while we are thinking we feel like interacting with Working groups every working group. They are like limbs. Everyone is doing something but They are not It's not so easy to connect to the degree that they are together On one path that is one strategy So anybody like this need a connecting tissue and need a center that is not so central Have no idea what's that Because we know that the center could end up being Right, that's very problematic So so we have a system that we are suggesting If It's a seat system. I know I do not know if you know how a convention is made the convention to create Constitutions like you want to create the constitution of the United States There are seats for each state Two seats for each state and the question is bring to us your most wise and intelligent too right, so the system is Five seats initially this is the first idea five seats and The question to this group and to this group and to this group this group and the blue the connecting tissue Can you select someone who doesn't want first? Doesn't want to be here at the center Anyone who self-proposes out to So you have to make an effort to convince that person have something to bring like Interesting ideas Capacity to listen and absorb people like define certain qualities somebody who has Capacity to convince or capacity to absorb and capacity to bring peace and capacity to bring good vibe or capacity to Somebody who's wise or philosopher or somebody who's so certain people of quality who do not usually they don't want To be in that place and you convince them and that will be one person representing every Circle and one person representing the blue and that creates center of gravity That place but that place is not an order kind of a body It's a body in which has the capacity Let's say that this whole project move in that direction It moved together Because the conditions are changing so it's almost like a strategic body, but also a body that Make that that whole plan has the capacity to move together Yeah, I know I give you the warning at the beginning. I told you we present very Abstract diagrams, but I also would like to say we have presented before a very abstract diagram and you have seen it in action So abstract diagrams can proven to be in action if We are depending on all amazing organizers who have committed to the to take the four Circles and the the responsibility and then all of those who will come in that place and All of those who would participate I finish here. You would finish that Next so basically this goes on on the two more slides. Sorry There this is this is one one diagram man So this is one more way of looking at it's not we're not fixed with this what we want to say that there's so many things happening in Orville right now, you know, there's a synthesis group and there is the The Delta group there is and my multidisciplinary group. There is a Drug who has started heart-weaving and so all of these group We don't know everything and we feel we should also not occupy everything and we definitely also don't want to be the people Who are at the center? So we want to open the space and we feel that the center should be kept very Some there should be something that is that that we don't know factor has to be there Because we really don't know and we have to keep that openness towards that that magic that can evolve that grace that can come So therefore we feel it's very important to keep it very open and very flexible and also we are just this is a first Presentation so we're very open to also suggestions of other ideas that you might have And next I think that's the last oh, yeah, that's if it goes there Then this would be the next step if we are all together on board and we all understand what we're aiming for What is our vision? What is our brief? What is what we want to achieve? Then we could go to a multidisciplinary Consultancy which could then Draw up the plans because yesterday we were asked like we are not experts We can't draw things and you know We don't you are the technical guys and you can do it all of course somebody has to eventually draw everything up But that's that's the last step. That's the last step once we're clear and David. Yes I would also add that the center an Important aspect of the center is we don't know That's a key like Anything going on there is coming from that. It's a place of humility, but it's just profoundly. We don't know Because that's where the magic is going to happen. That's actually from our perspective The linkages that get formed as these groups evolve as these teams evolve because the teams are Goal-focused they're not talking shops and as the test that we will have achieved something is When something happens in the center that allows us to accept External consultants that feel Welcome and that feel heard Okay, and I would just like to finish I need to change my glasses I would like to finish with a quote That Paulette sent to us this morning. This is her translation of a French interview with Roger the French television in 1972 And I feel it summarizes very nicely What we're actually trying to do in this presentation or what we'd like to evolve from this presentation the question to Roger So have you done like the Brazilians in? Brasilia do you build a city that you want people to just move into? Roger his answer not at all. I Believe this is at the very basis of the Oroville principle If the people who come for this profession of faith are not able to build their own environment This would mean that Oroville is a failure It is essential that it is built on the basis of individual experience We could thus locate Oroville at the opposite end of the traditional process of Contemporary urbanism, which is what we were just talking about In our urbanistic conceptions we do our city on paper on the basis of a conception as intelligent as it can be and Then we ask people to come and inhabit it Here the process is reversed People live the experience And it is starting from this experience But their conditions their environment their lifestyle Will be established and created Thank you. Yes We have a question Yes, Oroville is done to build a man. Yes, and that is the most important the city is after Oroville is there to build the next evolution of mankind The cities will be the tool for that. It's okay Paulette. Let's sorry to interrupt you But because people are leaving so if anybody has questions which are burning we would be happy to take So we will go for a quish Q&A. Yes, and there's food outside apparently for those who would like so So anybody's had enough and wants to go and eat please feel free and for anybody who wants to ask questions and gets answers Stay so the question from Robert one thing is what's next right Robert? So who's we have we have given a model which we feel that there are enough people who have signed up And we would like to take it forward But we don't want to be in the center like David me and Omar So we want to hand over slowly and we'll be there at the background And we would hope that more people will step up. Actually. This is a collective process It's it's really not just you know us. I mean that's not going to work We've done it too often this group and then okay, you do all the decisions this group It's not going to work So we want to change we want to change that system, but that means all of you have to also participate Yeah, on the contrary. We did it's not that we don't want to be in the center We can't be in the center because we've had so many people Basically saying that we're in this to get power. We're in this to take control That's absolutely the opposite of what we want, but The community and the engagement of the community is needed if we want to move forwards on this But I have a very simple answer for this. What is next next you will hear announcement from the dream Catching about the first sessions from David and Mona the holders You will hear an announcement from the holders of the educational how to shape the teams You'll hear announcement from the dream weaving how they're gonna start you'll hear announcement from this wind the time comes Yeah, that's Fred and then meet the and then better I would just like to add something to what David said in the beginning about when Moments when the community came together and he mentioned three of them And he said matrimandia and tsunami and COVID and he said two of them were brought about by external pressure by I don't know storms and sickness I think all three of them were brought about by external pressure because During the attack on all of it matrimandia suddenly came into the center And we all gathered in moments of attack around the matrimandia and just so Taking it from there It also spells out some reason why we are under the pressure now Maybe mother one said why do we always have to have the opposition of truth and She said because we are still in the dual consciousness You only move if you are challenged once you reach a unity of consciousness Then maybe the opposition the darkness the attacks might not be necessary and just the last sentence would be one of the things to give us a focus for this Renaissance of integration would be to reintegrate the matrimandia Yeah, I think due to the power of money due to the power of Solitary decision somehow the matrimandia has been taken out of the fabric of Orville, I don't want to criticize. I think amazing work sometimes overwhelming work and sometimes Scary work is being witnessed there But there would be the question can we just be informed Can we just know what is happening now and what will be happening tomorrow and the next day and that will bring about a Participation of the community and when you say it's a soul of the city or mother said let's build the city and the soul Will build the city I never quite understood how this is going to function But let's trust that she had some magic reason for it Then let us at least be informed about what's happening with the soul Just one second before just make very quick announcement As a thank you to everyone as a community building. There's beautiful beautifully prepared food in the back So there's beverages. There's desserts. There's beautiful things So please come and mingle with each other and enjoy this beautiful food that comes from all of our hearts So you guys foods questions It's your choice. I just had a question because I'm not sure I understood correctly that they're going to be three Groups or three points of work or four Okay, and that's one of them is going to be the outer ring road and one of them is going to I thought areas of work is three Areas of work is three, you know, I'm just trying to get that one is outer ring road one is kind of like one point on the crown and What is the other one? The overall they say out to ring, but then one place exactly where it's going to be so the whole outer ring and Then one place and the crown is that correct? The study. Okay, so yeah Only this like we have described four projects happening Simultaneously with a connector the dream catching which has a certain aim The building of a client body which has a different certain aim the self-education project Which has a certain aim and architects coming together and doing dream weaving Which will work on one of the three projects you have mentioned So the three project you have mentioned our possibilities for we are suggesting For the architects to start bringing proposals to that is very separate from this from this from this Oh, okay, and if they they will choose one project and if when finished maybe they go for another than another That's clear. Yeah, the dream weaving will be like we did with the crown It will involve a lot of people not just architects. Okay. Good. That was my my question. I got it Yeah, that was my question and I just a comment was it was not just those three Incidents that you mentioned but don't forget at the highway and the highway task force which was again an external enemy But we had people from completely different points of view working together and we did it Good evening Thanks for the good presentation. I was particularly interested by David Presentation and this Relationship to the human cycle of sure a window and this idea of bringing it together to an in the stick spiritual society Which I thought was a very interesting idea However, when I am looking at the method I Am not really understanding how this method in form This Presentation you made how does this methodology Bring us to this hunter of the spiritual society. I I have difficulty Seeing one overlapping the other this is one of my first question question on the second question I have is in the methodology I Find it in my view rather complex Maybe over complex that is a comment, but my question is what is exactly the aim? The final goal you are trying to reach Because we understood there is four groups with each other different function and something in the center that we don't know And and so if we join this at the end Maybe we'll have we'll talk to external multi-dip scenario consultant But at the end what is it exactly we are trying to to accomplish again? So this is my so overlapping and the overall Goal of the exercise. Thank you. I think you should answer the first question by showing the first two slides We did not show Next yeah back Yeah, okay, so I Was explaining at one point? If you take the human cycle as a starting point Shri Aurobindo suggests that from the subjective age you move into the spiritual age and I also mentioned because we've got Two other ways of looking two of the lenses through which you can look at this kind of system One is something called spiral dynamics, which I've been studying for 20 years And another one is what Ragu was using when he was using the Mahabharata as a framework But that is actually based on spiral dynamics now I pointed out that the spiritual age to say oh We're going to do this and then we're going to be in the spiritual age Kind of sounds a little bit Egotistical almost sounds almost like the opposite of what we're trying to do But the interesting thing is there will always have to be a transition between wherever we are now and the struggle between these three value systems and Getting to whatever the spiritual age may look like or may feel like now Because Shri Aurobindo wrote the human cycle more than a hundred years ago during the First World War I mean he got the base. He got some input from reading lamprechts Proposal at that time who was suggesting these kind of ages But then Shri Aurobindo made that leap and he said okay Germany at that time around the turn of the 20th century you could see the birth the beginning of this green value system And because of the integral yoga and the work that he was doing he could say okay, there will come this next step So from that time at the First World War He was projecting that into the future but since then we've had More than a hundred years of evolution and that evolution is clearly part of the integral yoga So and the evolution is also speeding up so What spiral dynamics which was developed in the 70s in the 80s is suggesting is That the leap from there's actually a significant leap from the subjective to the middle It's not an easy step But it talks about two steps One color the next step would actually be yellow and the step after that would be turquoise and these steps alternate So the blue is a collective color the orange and the red is an individual The green is collective again the yellow It's the first step of that as that transition is an individual color and my this is all my subjective interpretation But I actually believe that there are many many oravillians on an individual level Centered already in the center As a center of gravity, but because it's individual we come together occasionally and we do something like dream-catching Or we do something like the retreat There are certain moments in time where we can come together and we can share and we can project something into the future But this spiritual age is the turquoise So that's somewhere down the road So the process that we're proposing is using planning as a focus We could pick education. We could pick all kinds of things but the topic today is planning and Trying to suggest how can we Imagine and make steps towards whatever the galaxy wants to evolve into it's not a static thing and That the linkages in that space in the center is that exploration as to how to link that yellow Value system to get to the turquoise. So the spiritual is further down the road I don't necessarily believe I'll see it in my lifetime but the work we need to do now is We've talked in the past about a wise council or mother mentioned a wise council as a possible stepping stone so What would that wise council look like I've heard suggestions for instance that oh, you know you do a lottery and you get a child to pick names or As Omar was saying you can make a list of all the people who don't want to do it Whatever, but we don't have an answer. So our suggestion is that there's a starting point We have we haven't got the answer But as a starting point we use what we feel are processes that have tried to take that center ground But haven't done much collaboration between them and say how do we get these working together and collaborating and their Task-oriented they're not just oh, let's just sit and talk and then go and do over here with setting goals Ultimately, it's not it's a it's a the planning is just the trigger. Yeah Can I try to answer it once I can just can I no no I still still here? I'm still here. Give me a second. Can I try to answer this a little bit in a different way? Go back to the other image the previous one We are trying to create group of Work that is happening at the same time connected, right? That's what we're trying and to create some kind of a Center of gravity, so trying to create an initiative of multi group work, right? Next, but we have the imagination in our imagination. This work is happening at that center So that is again that diagram that we have just shown So it's almost remember when David was saying when there was events like the matrimandia that tsunami the Which created this kind of a collaborative center, but it happens in a very short time So our maybe wishful thinking and our truth It's maybe truthful is that maybe if this works it emulates that it is something that happens in that center And it happens for longer term Next and if that happens in love for longer term next We just hope you see that's the relation Previous now previous to answer the second question What is this about the previous? This is about we if you see how never holistic planning happened in Orville holistic planning we needs what needs? internal experts in Orville working together Community participation process because everyone in the world today knows that community participation is huge part of good quality planning and External experts because we do not have all the internal experts with the all the capacities of all the topics that are needed So this is the equation of success these three but when we try to achieve them we are not able because Internal experts are not necessarily able to work together community processes are not necessarily happening or Rejected and at the same time external experts are not interested in coming and being insulted or coming and Find that it doesn't work So this is an effort to create decond on a very practical level The conditions in which we can actually bring an external experts and this together could create a Path for holistic planning anything that happens before that all of these shortcuts We are gonna do something quickly here. We are gonna do something quickly here will not lead to anything holistic planning need this equation So it's a trial to get that Going one day and we are going in a slow process, and we don't care because anything fast will end up proving not useful Yeah, yeah on a on a on a law on a more deep level social Social agenda. I just wanted to say that planning we're using planning as a tool to make a social change Well, first of all, I think you did a very good work a very well-prepared presentation and You are coming with a very interesting methodology that I think we should try and I have some opportunity my work I Was just triggered by Frederick when he made the mention of Matrimand here so I'm not going to just to make one more project, but The point is that That 75 people walked in with their bags and their cell phones which come into the inner chamber So I don't think that this is what mother wanted the other last very question is Concrete speaking. I'm the land steward of the 16th force Before the whole place and farm has been destroyed by this decision by the FMC Non-recognized Now they came and I'm not the landlord there Not my pleasure to see it destroyed by people. I know that idea what they're doing so When they started to cut away in the forest of disappearing without informing me and then in miracle So I got information it might be the altering road and it might be connected to this pandian court case And the overall foundation always seems to be using it eventually as an excuse as an alibi To push parts of the altering road because actually this pandian cases is a non-starter so I Just wanted to say there is There are these people they sit in completely separate home all of us doing decisions backed by the lady and What are we actually what kind of chances actually do we have in such a case when we started cutting trees in the Place where I happen to be steward And the only way it could be stopped was when my old friend I was morning and suddenly put in a Contempt notice into the entity which stopped it So we have to please be aware we have no access to these powers Oh, this is wonderful. It's beautiful. But what is your comment on? The fact of life. There is a group completely separate from all of the mainstream They do the decisions they implement. They don't give a damn What's we want? Back in December 2021 when we made the presentation in the youth center We made very clear We talked about being at the center of the storm trying to stay at the center of the storm and And whatever work we were attempting to do We said we can't stop. We're not in a position to stop what's happening happening as you're saying we don't have executive power and Over the course of the last year and a half that lack of executive power has thwarted our attempts to do something so Whatever's going on Regarding Either TDC Because they are holding it's an external consultant when you're there holding that we're not whenever we don't have that power so We kind of we find out we find ourselves a little bit alive by myself a little bit piggy in the middle It's like what we're doing we're trying to move between it We're trying to engage with the community, but then we feel we feel somehow powerless to some degree now That will continue so if you Diagram with the circles it was only as that center was growing But we're hoping the circles that are pulling out will be forced to face in And deal with the new energy that's in the center, which is represented by this diagram We don't know maybe other people have ideas, but we don't know how else to address this. This is kind of like a Cry or hope that the residence assembly the collective can wake up Collectively together and act together to do this So it's a re-empowerment of the residence assembly or empowerment of the residence assembly doesn't come with any guarantee There's a huge amount of magic required for this to work in grace But we Very nicely gave the example with the NGT and having to add that that has to continue because those forces Are in operation we can't pretend and okay. We stop that and we all go and do this now Which is again why I gave the example of Britain in the second world war coming up with a vision for what they want after That's for me what we're trying to address here. It's kind of a struggle Not a war in the case of second world war. This is a huge struggle going on, but we're trying to Yeah, and just increase that critical mass that no one will be able to see There you go. Thank you I don't actually answer No, I just want to so emphasize that we don't have executive power I mean if you also want to ask if anybody in the room has executive are you can start by asking sour if he has We definitely don't and we never claimed that we have and I would like to make it so clear We couldn't even announce this dream weaving on mass bulletin or of a good or We sent and it was only sent a note today. You guys need to Get permission from the ATDC. Otherwise, it is divisive So yeah, we do we do and it's very legal but but so we are working through The margin We have within the RA Hoping that things would change while very much aware that we do not have it's active fire And as I also mentioned at the August last year We did that presentation and we said we're now passing the baton and Certain activities have happened since then it's not been nothing, but we realized that Okay, there's also the possibility that then with basketball that something would pick up again, but that didn't work out So now it's again passing the baton like we've been holding this for a year and a half This is a model we found as Omar says we found people to anchor each of these will be involved But we're not holding it This is literally the dissolution of the dream weaving court team as such because it kind of just came out of nowhere It was holding something but now it's time if this works fantastic, but it doesn't we're out of ideas and then someone else would pick it up, but This is our best shot, but it needs everybody on the currently out of France. New ones would come Collectively no from necessarily from us No more questions Food is waiting. Thank you so much. Thank you