 Yeah, oh, I thought somebody will say we'll play a video. Hi, I think we are live here and Welcome to this webinar on the world environment there where we are discussing about the the Lakshmi violence and you know the whole trajectory of development and and the paradigm of development that that has been advocated by Our government but before we just move on. I think there's a video that we have to play Right at the inception. So so I'm gonna play the video first. So I'm gonna Unfortunately, I think perhaps we'll play that video later. So Let me also introduce two appointment guests speakers for for today's webinar We have Dr. KV Thomas who will be speaking on On the whole issue of The Lakshmi islands and the challenges who superannuated as a scientist And was head of the course to processes drop National Center for Earth Sciences Studies in through the program. He also had an assignment as Dean faculty and as from the Kerala Kerala University and Okay, so I think Ticander is having problems with his Network and somehow he's got frozen out of this link. So maybe For the introductory part, let me quickly substitute for Ticander Ticander to introduce him is the former deputy mayor of Shimla Corporation is senior fellow at the I MPR I he's struggling to come back and He was just introducing the topic and the speakers Ticander now you're back. Okay, I just want to know I'll be playing the video first or should I just go ahead with the I think just go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. I'm not sure whether I was able to introduce dr. Thomas and Should I just do it again? Yeah, let me do it again. That's another problem. So we are welcome once again to this very important day the world environment day and Actually, it's the 50th world environment day that we are observing throughout the world and today as We all know that We are observing this day The important topic that we are going to discuss is the the luxury and islands and Development controversy surrounding this whole paradigm of Development what we are witnessing in India and particularly luxury Which has actually precipitated very recently. So, let me also introduce dr. KB Thomas who will be speaking first and who Superannuated as a scientist and has been the head of proposal processes group and He has also had an assignment as dean faculty climate variability and aquatic ecosystems and he has done his PhD from QSAT and got trained in various aspects of coastal management I think dr. Thomas happens to be one of the One of the important persons to speak about, you know, the challenges that the coastal areas are facing so welcome dr. Thomas and of course we have D. Raghunandan who we all know is with the daily science forum former president of the all India people science network and also convener of the environment desk of the IBSM and We have been coming across through his writings very extensive writings on science technology Environment and of course he is a climate change and people science So welcome Raghu, I mean, that's that's how we call the year one as so I think the before is my thing So so what what I propose right at the inception is since we have almost 90 minutes of time To go ahead. So I think our speakers should get ample time. So 20 minutes each Raghu and dr. Thomas if you agree to that and then we can have a question and answer session after that And Since good number of our participants or those who are listeners would be coming from the Hindi background So I would request a good way to Combine both Indian English so that people are able to understand And of course dr. Thomas you can go ahead with English and for the questions that that need to be Asked I the only form and the format is you can type those questions And then we can just to predict those questions to the panelists who are supposed to Answer those questions. So yeah, I think we can go ahead. But before I invite Two guests that we have today. I think it is important active We just go back to you know, this whole issue of the dear observance of the world environment in there's certain positive things the new churning that's coming up especially When we came back from the Paris climate talks and you know, things were very gloomy one of the important Nations of the world is I mean just walked out of the climate talks and said I mean I I don't agree with that but now we are finding something new that is happening. So the theme that that happens to be for for the year is reimagine recreate and restore The world environment. I mean that I think that's very apt and for the decade It's the decade of ecosystem restoration and the three important elements that Globally are being targeted if we have to ensure that we are able to protect planet earth and protect ourselves one happens to be climate change the second one happens to be the Challenge to our biodiversity and the third one happens to be massive pollution that is affecting our oceans rivers And of course our massive land mass and the fourth one which I would like to add here is the kind of Land use change that we are witnessing. So going to the first one there scientists probably to move I don't know whether we will touch that because of the time Some of the scientists are saying that we look we have already exhausted that That time frame. I mean we do not have the time frame left to really reduce our cover footprint and to ensure that We are able to to actually come to some some sort of some sort of resolution resolution unless and until we work in in in in in a in a war phase and The two reports, which are very important one is the latest report that has come up from the United Nations environment program the unit and some 15 years ago, which was Title as an at me of a silent crisis. Now, you know 15 years ago It was an at me of a silent crisis now. It's no more a silent crisis It's a very vibrant crisis and it is to me a catastrophe and I think We are aware of it. I mean, I don't really have to substantiate it But just to give a few figures for our people or our log hand You know who are working in the middle of a group of a T-cell camera Joe, our atmosphere carbon dioxide Joe, what? I'm not a carbon emissions the same bottom Skip, I get it. Oh, it's a little bit. I'm a Joe I'm stuck key human Joe civilization is a chemical. I'm a piece of a piece of a And only 20 companies are responsible for 33% emissions. But even now, you will see that big subsidies are still grabbing the subsidies from fossil fuels and all. So we can easily understand how and where the struggle lies. And just in the year 2018, there's a loss of damages of 155 billion US dollars. That's just from climate change related natural disasters. The second thing I think, which is biodiversity, which is also very important, and what I also call the losses of biodiversity and redundancy, which is kind of mutual living of a different species. Another point is, why is it so important for us? And we find that the pace in which it is accelerating, the rate is not found in any record since what the report says is the Cretaceous extinction that is almost 66 million years ago. So when we talk about what happened 6 crores years ago, you can understand that this is how the distribution of species is being seen. And this has a very big relationship with climate change. And the abundance of wild insects, it has fallen by 50%. And it comes from the report. 9% of all domesticated mammal breeds used for food and agriculture had become extinct by 2016. That's the real price, but there's a funny thing that I would like to add here. And when we substantiate our argument that biodiversity is so important and we have to preserve our forest because that is where large flora and fauna exist. So there are a few scientists. The scientists, the pen pushers of saying nothing, we have the technology. So they say, and there's a connection between if honey bees get extinct and if Madhu Makhis don't exist in the world, then humans won't be able to survive for a long time. So they say, you don't have to worry, we will make robotic honey bees. So if you study from these people, you can understand that I think that's a real challenge that we need to understand. Of course, the pollution, the third element that happens to be massive excesses of nitrogen, fertilizers, runoff, that is polluting water, odes and soil and are risking anoxic extinctions. I mean, anoxic extinctions like, you know, the hypoxia that we are currently seeing in the pandemic. And the pandemic has exposed us that this is our system. This system is not going to sustain for a long time. So it's just a matter of sustainable development goals. And it's very important that sustainable development goals, climate change, we need to look at all of this. This is the whole exposure that we have given in the last two years, especially in the world and in the country. And the fourth thing that I think is very important, that is the way in which we are moving ahead. And that is what I call the change in land use patterns. This is for industrial growth. And of course, it is creating water scarcity. Land degradation, it affects almost 3 billion people. That's what we, 3 billion means 300 crore people are affected. And 1 third of land mass, which is under forests, 10% of this is being lost through conversion to other land uses. And this is what we are witnessing here in India as well. Now, having said that, I think, where all these things are happening at a very safe, fast pace. I think what is important is that there is an argument that, climate change can be fought merely by reductionism. That you just talk about climate change, and around that, you discuss it. And whatever you can hope for, whatever you can bring to change, and the two big things that are being said, that mitigation and adaptability, that you can really mitigate the disaster. I think I have a different say on that. To me, it is the interplay of different ecosystems that we are talking about. And if we do not really come to understand the interplay of different ecosystems, I think it will be not easy for us to really comprehend and to really strike what is required. And I am really glad the way you and General Secretary this year said that, you know, COVID recovery and our planet's repair are two sides of the same coin. And he has actually also pointed out about the interplay and the interconnections of system where he said, shifting our values and worldviews, as well as our financial ecosystems is very important. And why I think this is... So why it is also important, because as I pointed out in the beginning, I mean, who had imagined that, you know, after Paris climate talks, and when the US moved out of the climate talks, now we have witnessed a new green deal. I mean, where we are going to head, we do not know. But at least that churning is taking place. And similarly, we are witnessing a new churning that is taking place in England. Probably, Rahu can comment on that. That, you know, the parliamentarians in UK are saying that we are even going to tame the movement of the finance. Those who are not in tandem to climate change would not be allowed even to enter the stock exchange. I mean, that sounds quite totalitarian, but, you know, those are the kinds of voices which were not heard of some five years or 10 years ago. So there is some scope, some chance of intervention and some chance of, you know, getting into these interplay of forces and to really intervene. So I think from this, I would like to move further to, you know, the interconnection between climate change, biodiversity loss and the whole question of sustainable development goals. And this is something which was pointed out by, and where I was also delegating Keto, the capital of Ecuador and Habitat 3, John Kloss, the executive director, who kept on reminding in 2016 that this, I mean, things as usual, unless and until we break the inertia, we are not going to pledge anything. What does that mean? He said things as usual and the three decades, and this is what we have also seen, carbon emissions that we have witnessed in the world. So three decades or four decades of developmental paradigm that we have witnessed in the world, on the basis of less of a, that's free market economy is not going to lead us to any way. A, it increased massive amount of iniquity, inequality. B, the kind of emissions that, I mean, that we have seen in the last three decades are, I mean, beyond our even scope of actually addressing that. So I think this is something very important that, and there he substantiates that we have to go back to the basics of planning. And the basics of planning means that we have to go back to how and where we have to advance. Well, as an urbanist, I mean, as someone who has worked in the urban centers, I would like to cite just one instance here. And that is Ian McCug, some 60 years ago, he wrote planning with nature, because the way, and since most of these emissions are coming from the urban centers, take, for example, 50% of the world is already urban. And we have, we are also, I mean, this kind of developmental paradigm we are also witnessing in India where, you know, urban centers are considered to be places of massive development, whereby instead of going back to the basics of planning, we are finding it cities to be transformed from, you know, city entrepreneurs to kind of, from city managers to city entrepreneurs. So what does this mean? This means that you attract capital, you attract investment irrespective of the fact whether that is akin or adapted to climate change, whether that is adapted to sustainable development goals or not. And we have seen blatant violations how this has happened in the smart cities where humongous amount of inequality also has come to the fore. So having said that, I think we would also like to jump to the Indian story. I mean, the way things are unfolding in India. And it's, and it's a very big part that climate change pollution is very influential here. In 2017, there were more than 17 lakh people who died here. And the entire language of our government is about ease of doing business. Just for ease of doing business, you can do anything here. And in the past few years, the forest land here has been diverted for non-forest purposes. This 1147 hectare forest land has been diverted from January 1st to January 1st to November 6th, 2019. And 20,000 hectare has been diverted from 2015 to 2018. So this development trajectory actually has even hit to some of the paradigm which was considered to be quite non-political. Take for example some of the islands about which we will be talking in this webinar, which was considered that, you know, these are the places where we are not going to touch. These are the places where, irrespective of our political affiliations, we are not going to enter. But we have seen that, especially after 2014, and of course after 2019, the spree has been quite blatant. So I would like to say just five instances and five examples, and then I will ask our panelists to actually move ahead. And that is those five instances where I think that we really need to revisit the way we, while observing World Environment Day and the way we are building this whole development trajectory of our development, which is A, completely unsustainable, which is B, not linked to the goals of climate change. And I think there is also the driving force of that happens to be Corporate Communal Alliance and the Corporate Communal Green, which is quite evident in the way this is moving ahead. So the first thing, and it started from as one of the leaders from Kashmir, and it is not going to end intellectually. We have seen in Kashmir how abrogation of Article 370, not just for, you know, trafficking the state or bifurcating the state into two union territories, but at the same time, I think one of the important reasons why Kashmir and Ladakh is important is massive mineral wealth in Ladakh. So Ladakh, still you find that the tribal status under Schedule 6 is not being passed on to the Ladakhies. For the simple reason, the massive potential that Ladakh has with respect to their mineral wealth, with respect to the solar energy because the solar capacity that they have, because once the sixth schedule is granted, then the people will have the right and the people will have the voices which they will raise and which will not be easy for this corporate aggrandizement or for the corporate lucrative. So that's the first thing. I mean, the first instance that I would like to say. The second thing, the second instance, I think which is an important is which of course Raghu will touch is the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. I mean, you know, this whole idea of developing Andaman and Nicobar Islands, giving citing examples of Singapore is completely nonsense because they're completely two different, I mean, we can't, I'm two different parallel lines are going and they can't merge together. There are reasons for that. But if you go by the Niti Io document, you'll find the way three zones have been identified in Andaman, and so the most astonishing part is that 95% of the area which is under reserve forest in that, I think nearly 2 million trees will be chopped out. So 2 million means 20 lakh trees will be chopped down. This is the vision document. This is how the Niti Io plans a development in our island regions. And this massive area almost up to 737 square kilometres is 224 square kilometres which is being targeted for Greenfield project, for Greenfield highways and just to attract tourism. Whereas as I pointed out, I think there was a consensus amongst the political parties what kind of development and where what kind of development has to take place. I think that consensus has been broken here. Ladakh I've already spoken. The third one is the Central Vista project. We are actually, we are still thinking that Central Vista is just a new parliament coming up. Whereas actually it's again the change of land use which we find, I mean nothing has come more vivid than what we have witnessed in the last two or three days. We have seen the effort of it filed by the government in the Supreme Court which said it is not a TOD, it's not a transit-oriented development. For our viewers, just to make them clear, transit-oriented development in simpler terms means it's land monetisation. So actually Central Vista is also land monetisation apart from hundreds of trees being chopped down, apart from a district designated park being converted into land use being changed from district designated park to a parliament building. And all this is being done like if you remember in Jammu and Kashmir when they abbreviated 370, they said we want to impart the 74th Constitutional Amendment. The 74th Constitutional Amendment doesn't apply in Jammu and Kashmir. So we want to actually delegate these powers. In fact, in the Central Vista it was the NBMC that should have approved the plans but we've seen nothing of this has not happened. So it is blatant. It is completely blatant the way we are witnessing these changes and these are very fast. So when we speak on World Environment Day A, we are losing our urban commons. B, we are losing our flora and fauna that's the biodiversity. C, whatever assets the people own because these are public spaces. These were spaces of owned by the people. So people have no say on to that how things have to be planned and so therefore Central Vista happens to be a very important area where a palace should mention of the prime minister and a vice president house along with certain buildings to be raised down and why I say it's a communal corporate alliance because many buildings and if you have an understanding of the Central Vista it was the Mughal and the Hindu architecture which was clubbed together when Lutton and Baker designed the Central Vista. So to get rid of that Mughal architecture or Mughal feel in that region that's why those buildings, some of the buildings are also being raised down. So and the fourth I think instance that I would like to cite apart from various other things that we are witnessing is the amendments in the Environment Impact Assessment. Already we know the EIA is flawed. I mean we have been witnessed to so many reports I mean especially reports where the impact assessment has been done by consultants in the construction of hydropower projects and we've seen what focus is but still people had some say, people still had some some scope of intervention. We have seen since 2011-2020 the law was altered nearly 300 times. I repeat it was altered 300 times and despite it has not been passed, I mean still hanging there have been 33 alterations just in the guise of ease of doing business. So to just wind up what I'm trying to build is and of course the fifth one is the luxury where what I was talking about what I'm trying to build up is you know here is a day which is so important 50 years down the line which is for our planet Earth which brings in the man nature dialect which also brings in the direction which we have to follow which also brings in the way how we have to proceed but which also brings in the hurdles and impediments that we are witnessing and as I pointed out it's we can't just reduce it to mere reductionism I think it's the interplay of forces and when I say the interplay of forces we have to understand the kind of systemic interventions that we are witnessing and so therefore when we build our movement for climate change adaptability for achieving our desired goals I think it cannot be minus the reality that is existing now but I think with those words and I've already exhausted my time I can see the message that Raghu has posted I think it would be prudent from my side to invite Dr K.V. Thomas I have already introduced so Dr. Thomas are you there can you take the mic thank you it was a good introduction by let me come to lethadi directly coming to lethadi lethadi that island systems it's a biodiversity hub the islands these are micro islands the maximum area of the largest island comes to around just above for the kilometer and the smallest one comes in decimates so if you are trying to do anything on this biodiversity hub we have to be very careful with 36 islands out of which 10 are mid habitat a few other islands are it has land parts when you talk about one of the islands Suheili which is now in picture its area is only 0.3 square kilometers still these small islands the community use it they go there stay there for a certain period fish nearby see then come back and some of these small islands in uninhabited islands have already been in the past after that CRSN notification came into effect in 1991 the lethadi administration has at that time notified them as very sensitive areas so that is how this island was kept without much problems for the system the corals the lethadi islands these small islands many times as it was told earlier that Andaman is compared to Singapore in the case of development lethadi is always compared to Maldives when these type of developments are planned there in fact the system in Maldives is around 1000 islands and this 36 island system these are not comparable and now let us look at the system of the island system though these are spread in these islands are spread in may be some 100 kilometers or like that still they are interconnected in different ways and they keep each island's identity separate and this island system has developed as an adult then over 1000s or lakhs of years at some point of time people came there and they settled there with the the system they were very happily living with the resources available there basically fish and coconut they have the trade with the mainland through Kochi or Beppur in Kerala Kodikode in Kerala and Mangalore in Karnataka at every point of time they were the community was always aware the coral reef system that is a system that gives the protection for the islands from the hazards from the sea that coral reefs is a biodiversity system which support the fishery there and it is very sensitive to temperature and turbidity increase in sea surface temperature they cannot help it but they were always seeing that this is not affecting it they never removed the live corals they always took some dead corals for their certain activities and the first person the first group or institution which destroyed part of the corals was the government system in fact in Kavarathi one part of the coral system was destroyed to construct building there, government building so most of the harms done to the system is from the government systems and government organizations and the lagoons there between the corals and the land a calm area again that's a hub for bait fish which they use for the fishing the tuna fishing again that is a hub for seagrass beds seagrass you know that is in fact in carbon absorption or secretation it is at a much higher level than any of the terrestrial systems the lagoon fishery that supports the livelihood of the community there then you have the beaches pristine beaches and that was again intertidal organisms were surviving there these organisms are also connected with the fishery and these beaches were a buffer zone for the forces from the sea they never interfered with the beach system but when harbors were constructed in each of the islands erosion started coastal erosion, beach erosion this was became a pattern in the ratcheting of the islands no I don't say that it is not required but probably at that point of time the design which we have done was not suited for the system even the tourism that was also controlled in the form ship tourism was prevalent there or that was the system there people come and stay in the ship then they go to the islands during the daytime not to all islands selected islands then come back and stay in the ship that was like the community there are traditions there are customary rights and also the ecosystem so it was in such a way the system was maintained and the people they were of the most peace loving community in harmony with the surroundings in harmony with the ecosystems there they were part of the ecosystem they were part of the fish they were part of the corals they were part of the near shore they belong to a group of ecosystem people which is part of the island system and the system got a jerk with the introduction of some of the recent projects or proposals by the government of India through NDI in fact the supreme court they understood the uniqueness of these small islands everywhere small islands very small islands are considered as a sensitive system and it is insulated from unplanned development activities everywhere the supreme court considered this as a this luxury island system was unique and sensitive and they appointed one of one committee under the chairmanship of a retired supreme court justice with experts from all fields from coastal physical processes from biological process ecosystems then an architect and a well known coastal engineer so they looked into all the aspects and they proposed an integrated island management plan it was what prepared with the help of one of the institutes organizations National Centre for Earth Science Studies and this report in fact the trust was given not on development the trust was and preservation of coastal habitats of lecture deal and to protect the islands its biodiversity from anthropogenic activities and also to protect the traditional and customary rides of the island community this was the trust of that integrated island management plan and in that plan they have proposed rather a land use plan what activities earlier it was mentioned the importance of land use so it was in that report there is a beautiful land use recommendations in each of the system what should be done what should not be done the island management plan considered the land part the entire island part the lagoon part the corals the sea has a single unit interglated unit for each of this system what should be done what should not be done and also this IAMB integrated island management plan stresses on participatory development it underlines specifically it says that all development activities in the island should be in consultation with the local island panchayats and it also says all tourism development projects should in addition because tourism may come in the uninhabited islands there is no island panchayat in this uninhabited islands so the report says it's all tourism projects should be consulted also with the district island panchayats so it takes care of participation from the part of the from the community it classifies the island into different zones for the purpose of introducing activities basically it is divided into a preservation zone a conservation zone a regulated development zone one, a regulated development zone two like that it has been categorized the other area has been categorized and development it says what development can be done in each of these places and in fact the conservation zone consists of inner and outer reef reef crust sea grass beds in the lagoon and in the sea turtle nesting areas and other zones which are declared as sensitive so it takes care of all the sensitive very sensitive I won't say sensitive very sensitive activities and then regulated or conservation zone and all those things are there so it takes care of the biodiversity of those of the system now let us see what is happening there the one thing they have done is the first thing is the demolition of the sheds along the beach side in fact mind you this IAMB which is sub root by the spring out and that is the law which says that the community traditional rights should be respected but these sheds are where they have kept there fish gear and instruments and such things which is needed for their livelihood the first thing the government has done the administration has done is cleaning, removing this saying that it is illegal in no way it is illegal it is basically to give facilitate or to facilitate tourism related activities or open beach for for tourism that is in fact it is I mean nobody can agree with that and the second one is the second thing which in fact which came is that construction of a development authority for that now the administration has the right to make a development authority but at the same time this report IAMB has a part which says development control regulations it should be notified and accordingly the development should be done there if the development authority notification came in which this development control regulations were attached then okay that is fine but that is not attached that means they have some other plan which goes against the development control regulations the development control regulations are to facilitate the normal life of the legislative community with basic requirements like open space roads which is suited for them and space for the livelihood activities and plus protection to the ecosystems unfortunately this development authority notification doesn't contain this development control regulations as part of it now let us come to Nidhi Ayog's major intervention this developing resource in one of the uninhabited islands Suheili island then in inhabited islands Kavarathi and Kadamav these resources or tourism developments are mostly oriented in the centered in the Lagoon Suheili as I told you it's a unique system where the community always come there to collect their bait fish and it is a breeding ground for the many of the normal fishes and they go from there for the fishing for the tuna and stay there process it and come back that is a unique system that should be kept at least as a I mean for the future it can be a natural laboratory also which we can keep it as a natural laboratory once it is lost it is gone see in the Lagoon city has been proposed and mind you in the IAMB it is told Lagoon's boating without no talk recreations in the Lagoon without creating turbidity which may be harmful to the corals which may which should not affect the seagrass bird there is a carrying capacity study done for it but as per the notification this carrying capacity should have been discussed with the community but it was not done Suheili it has been declared as a sensitive area because of one area in 1991 notification but probably this may not be the government is saying that that is not applicable now sensitive area at that time now becomes not that sensitive so it affects and the IAMB says that there should not be any construction in the adjacent to the no disturbance, no tourism there on the beach there no constructions on stills there no disturbance for the seagrass all those things are there and now it is going to be and the number of floating hearts floaters they call it floaters and the question is on my name authority in fact they were not that happy with this Suheili thing and they suggested a lot of modifications and all those things are still it is going to happen that is how it goes that is we are losing a natural or nature's laboratory forever and now come to the other two islands there also the development is in the lagoon there it has been told that or the IAMB says that it can be there less inhabited areas they are going to do it in the less inhabited areas but in the lagoon for all these recreational activities so it is going to again affect the corals the seagrass bed and you know the seagrass bed is if seagrass bed is somewhere here in the one part of the lagoon there is a group of turtles come here if they come there then it may seagrass may eat and disappear and in another place it may form at a later time there is no area in the lagoon which is not suited for seagrass beds so that is the situation and in this island they want to in the resource they want to sell liqueur in fact that is not suited for their culture you know that over the years they tap from the coconut that juice but never ferment it without fermenting you use it for making some sweets and other things that is their culture which is I mean over long period they were using this juice from the coconut tree and making it for seeds such is their culture there in the in the resource it is planned to liqueur is going to be served there that has upset the community no the system the government is not taking into consideration of the community there and the IMB says that these resource should be for generation of job for the community there and we know that Nidhi Arya plan is not to engage the local people for these things it is going to be owned by major I mean tourism circuit owners and the people there may get some job and clean the rooms or something room boys or things like that so the purpose which is for which the IMB recommends the resource is not match and there are many things with the I think it is yeah yeah there are many things that this I mean this administrator should have done that they are not doing mapping of corals every five years and see identify the most sensitive ecosystems and try to control it carrying capacity for all the islands before doing any development activities formulate conditions applicable to tourist resort owners, resorts and tourist homes for maintaining any the system there and all these things even there generators are used for electricity to change it to renewable energy systems all those things there are many things to be done for the community and for the protection of the ecosystem without this it is going and now the gundah act is there now today there is another thing that all fishing boards should be should have some officers with them all this way the administration is trying to destroy the culture of the people they are not taking care of the will of the people and they are trying to destroy the system that sensitive system through interventions thank you it was really nice to hear you especially the minutest of details actually how the people would be affected and you know I think what is very important is sensitivity of the whole issue but simultaneously also one important element which maybe you have rightly pointed out is the carrying capacity actually this is what we have been doing studies even in the Himalayan region for example what kind of tourism, how many tourists should be allowed and this is what I was referring to in the beginning there was a general consensus in the policy paradigm that better few but better especially in certain areas where you can't really match because more tourism means more pollution means how do you deal with all those issues and I think you have also rightly pointed out the whole question of culture because you can't force a culture which you say I think then we should try it in Gujarat initially why should we try the same thing in Gujarat probably we can proceed that so thank you Dr. Kavya and I'm sure there will be questions to you is Ragu close by I think I would like now to take over and probably once he finishes off because he's written also extensively on Lakshmi, Ragu are you there yes I'm here I think even please take the chat thank you both Tikindar and Dr. Thomas have laid out a broad perspective and sweep of the problem that we are facing Tikindar first spoke about the larger issues confronting the nation and Dr. Thomas focused on the problems being faced in Lakshmi where currently there seems to be a very major assault by the new administrator of Lakshadweep who has been specially sent to administer the Lakshadweep islands by the central government and the UT administration comes directly under the home minister and for those of you who may not be aware the current administrator of Lakshadweep was formerly in fact the home minister in Gujarat during the time when the current prime minister was chief minister there and when the current home minister at the center had to step down in Gujarat because of an investigation into a fake encounter then the current administrator Lakshadweep Mr. Patel was acting as home minister in his absence so he is obviously a person very close to the ruling establishment but has descended on Lakshadweep and without looking into the past without looking at what is going on has gone on a rampage of enacting new laws introducing the gundai act virtually suspending the panchayat system and has proposed a new set of regulations which is now awaiting approval by the home ministry which will give the administration total powers to declare any area as a development area to take over the land that is there and you must remember Lakshadweep islands is over 95% Muslim and scheduled tribe and in everywhere else in India you cannot alienate tribal lands but here the administrator is trying to move a regulation which will enable him to declare an area development area take over the land start any kind of development activities hotels, resorts what not and can take away the land from the islanders and supplant it with their own activities he has embarked on a series of actions to suppress the protests which have spread in the island he has arrested several thousand people more than 3000 to 4000 locals have been removed from employment most of them were contract employers they have been removed and very seriously an attempt is being made to separate the Lakshadweep islands from their traditional linkage with Kerala and because of these linkages there is a democratic system in the islands there is a rule of law there is respect for people's participation all this is now sought to be bypassed and ships which were bringing supply from Lakshadweep to Bepur or Kodikode in Kerala are now being diverted to Mangalore and in many other ways this link, organic link to Kerala is being suppressed I have written an article today and those of you who are interested please look at newsclick.in and the lead story there is on the Lakshadweep crisis where I have pointed to what I call the big plot that this is not some innocent activity where central government is overzealous wanting to introduce development and ignoring the local islanders this is a very deep plot and it is part of a plot which is taking place under the direct supervision of the Niti Ayo which directly gets protection and is supported by directly the prime minister's office now these are part of a plan proposed by Niti Ayo a special new island development agency has been set up in 2017 by the central government which has handed over the issue of so called holistic development of the islands both Lakshadweep on the western side and the Andaman islands on the eastern side and by holistic development what they mean is to develop the islands for mega tourism along the lines of the Maldives you have already heard Tikindar speaking about carrying capacity which means how many people can the islands host every day every month every year based on local resources based on impact on the environment after all if you build hotels they will be consuming resources and they will be generating waste where is that waste going to go then you will create infrastructure for the tourists can the island wear those infrastructure all these issues surprisingly while they are talking about a comparison with the Maldives they have not taken the trouble to study what is the impact in the Maldives what are the complaints of the local population in the Maldives today in the Maldives of course as Dr. Thomas said which has a large number of uninhabited islands so you can build something there but there already the coral reefs have been damaged seriously overfishing is taking place by trawlers which drag the nets along the ocean floor disturbing the ecology which have now been banned after 15 years of this intensive tourism which Maldives has had and there is now a serious thinking rethinking of this model of development in the Maldives itself but this plan started in 2017 and if you look at this article of mine in news click today you will find links given there to this plan of Niti Ayo conducted by Niti Ayo and proposals which include the proposals that Dr. Thomas was talking about in the Lakshadweep as well as very large proposals for projects in the Andaman islands you will be surprised to know that in the Andaman islands also there is more than 500 islands and not more than 38 are inhabited but they have chosen to focus their efforts on the little Andamans which is just to the north of the great Andaman islands with Port Blair etc which is a populated area and the Nikobar islands and where the plan is to develop large scale tourism with airports in every island plus sea ferries going here and there and apart from that there is a new green field financial hub to rival Hong Kong and Singapore that is what the plan says can you imagine 1500 kilometers away from the Indian mainland virtually in the middle of nowhere one isolated island will suddenly become a financial hub a big financial hub has been constructed just outside Ahmedabad about 35 kilometers away from the big plan of the then chief minister of Gujarat supposed to also rival Singapore and Hong Kong and Dubai as financial district that is not taken off if that could not take place in the mainland where is it going to take off in the middle of nowhere where there is no population there is nobody on one island you go and construct big cities and you expect people to come there and build transshipment ports container ports convention center and various other proposals which they are hiding in the name of oh this is a very strategic location very close to the Malacca Straits so if we do all this there it will give us strategic depth into the Malacca Straits this is all rubbish the whole purpose of this is that in Andaman Dweep Dweep Samu and Laxha Dweep in both these big companies by calling through them they want to open a big resort hotel there in Maldives this small area which you can see in the rest of India they do not come those who spend good money they just stay in the middle of the sun enjoying themselves these are very upmarket tourists so that is the goal here to attract upmarket tourists all the Niti Aayog plans constantly talk of why are there so many tourists in Maldives why are they not coming to our islands what is not understood is Maldives is standalone it's just the islands they stay and go back tourism in India offers many many more attractions people come to India for all kinds of reasons not just to lounge on a beach they do that also in Goa in many other places they also come to look at the country to experience the country to travel around experience the diversity of cultures and languages and food that they experience here if you are technically linked for your tourism you connect them with mainland tourism in Laxadvip if you are touring in Kerala connect them to Laxadvip then it is a different thing you could have been a good tourist who would have made the local Abadi a job in the end and the Andaman islands this project the big project in the little Andaman islands as Vikinder said proposes to destroy about 60% of the total pristine forest area on that island this is one of the few islands in that belt which is a breeding site for the great leatherback turtle which is a globally endangered species and most importantly to my point of view it is home to the Onghe tribe the Onghe tribe is one of the oldest Abadi Abadi in our country which has nothing to do with the outside world nowadays as they grow they are isolated community they are happy with themselves and only 100 families there are only 100 households of the Onghe tribes left the plan of the Niti IO casually says if necessary they can be relocated the people who have been living there for 15,000 years you are casually saying they can be relocated somewhere else the Niti IO plan specifically says we are creating island development authority as island development authority as you have heard the administration is trying to run it in the same way the Niti IO who is running it says this island authority for any project for tourism for airport for road construction for that single window clearance will be provided and we before coming even before the investor you need as much clearance including environment clearance we don't care whether we destroy the environment whether we have impact on the local ecology whether we have impact on the primitive tribes living in that area for all this we will get permission we will prepare it and start our work recently the ministry of environment this is available on their website has granted environmental impact clearance regulatory clearance after environmental impact assessment for the project in the little andaman islands and just to show that we have done the research of the environment they have written a lot about the threats to the environment there is danger for the jungle there is danger for the mangroves there are trees, plants and animals there is danger for primitive tribes after that suddenly the environment impact assessment report says nevertheless we are giving clearance for this project they can go ahead because impact on the island is considered to be less than no problem you go ahead whatever the threats you face it does not matter you clear out the island of all human beings fauna, flora, everything and just make it a resort where people will come and stay and enjoy themselves and you can earn money who will earn money from this local people have nothing to do with it some money will come some GDP will come but main thing is who will benefit you can be sure in the big plot this is what I have written you can be sure that behind this there are some specific big corporate houses known to be friendly to the ruling dispensation who are already lined up to come you must know by the way in january this year there were very concerned reports in the government this is reported on in the press as well and you will see these references given in my article that despite all this there were very few investment proposals why even the big international investors who have invested in resorts in the Maldives know that this kind of island tourism either in the Andamans or in Lakshagrip are not economically viable can you imagine talking about carrying capacity where Dr. Thomas was speaking about Suhaili island with the lagoon where maybe 50 to 60 people go everyday for fishing and come back maybe 100 people or so the carrying capacity report prepared by Niti Ayog and a few international consultancy organizations have projected huge carrying capacity for the projects in the Andamans and in the Lakshadip islands ranging from 1000 to 10,000 tourists per day I can say from the left there are 1,500 tourists there so they have no place to stand forget about carrying capacity and impact on the environment so I believe there is very little time I want to answer more questions I will finish my talk here that this is only tourism and ecological impact environmental impact there is no impact on the environment this is a strategy from which the government wants to present a model of development to make money and there is no other goal in this that some corporate people come there and put hotels they will become airports they will have services whether you bring labour from Gujarat wherever you bring labour to run them you just do business and by doing that business we will bring so many airports there for your information I will tell you that in today's as much as we talk about Maldives in Maldives on peak 15 lakh 1.5 million tourists come to the Maldives every year in India there are about 2 crore tourists from abroad with them our coastal areas there and with our wealth in this 10, 20, 50 lakhs 1 crore we cannot bring tourists to India where there is less impact where the local people come to Kerala if you see Kerala's Arthvevastha now not just big hotels small houses they come to Kerala they enjoy themselves the local culture they experience it along with that the common people of Kerala get an opportunity to do that eco tourism integrated tourism they call it bringing this out to the model of tourism and in the name of development even today I will say that I will not develop it I don't want to use formal words for this but this is hiring out the islands for exploitation by people without regard to environment and even more without regard to the local population I feel sad that on world environment day we have to focus on such an issue which amounts to a total destruction of the environment after coming to this government we are seeing that with the view of ease of doing business to destroy the environment an agenda has adopted that anything should be developed it doesn't just mean to earn money it means economic growth I do not even use the word because for this we should not even call it development for that where I say nature and the people who live in it who are dependent on natural resources for their livelihood they have an impact on both on nature and human they have an impact on that by destroying both can we call a model development and this unfortunately is happening on world environment day and we are having to remember it I will conclude my remarks there I hope that we have discussion I will once again request the audience to kindly read the article which has appeared on news click today on the Laxodip on islands I think by tomorrow the Hindi version also would have come Hindi may be a chapega or a lake a small write up will be uploaded on the AIPSN website highlighting this issue of the Laxodip and Andaman islands in the context of world environment day and the ecological problems that India is facing ecological and development problems that India is facing as a result of this so called economic model which this government has set in motion which aims to achieve economic growth at the cost of both the natural environment as well as the human beings particularly those who depend on natural resources this little note along with a larger article on the Andaman and Nicobar islands and the Laxodip islands will be uploaded on the AIPSN website till tonight it should be on the website if you go www.aipsn.net from there you will get the link of this note I will end my talk here thank you I think it was an interesting presentation we have two questions before that I think three generalizations I think I should do those generalizations the first thing is who plans for whom this is where we are witnessing the development authority and the local communities or even elected councils we are witnessing this in Andamans in Laxadvip in Jammu-Kashmir in Ladakh and even in Delhi this whole we have to change the law the second thing which is important is conspiracy we don't think this is done this is an isolated example I said it started with Kashmir Laxadvip won't end and the third thing is making money this development actually this is destruction this is the path of destruction the way the corporate development we are witnessing this I have a question this is what we have been arguing throughout and at various places democratization of the surplus the way the money is being collected from everywhere what structures should be in which people can make money and after making money they will get back we see this in cities and now this whole island or the work in other places will come up but thank you Dr. KV and Ragu for making those interesting presentations so I think the two questions so the first one which I would like Ragu to answer and I think we have another 10 minutes to go before we find out this entire thing so this is from Katunur Raja on Enderman islands the Enderman islands are identified as biodiversity hotspots by biodiversity convention is it possible to stop the developmental activities that's the first thing so Ragu I think it's better if you take that question and the second one will EIA be done for developmental projects in islands so I don't know what does that mean what does this question mean so you can take that Dr. KV can also answer that can you please turn on your camera yeah yeah very briefly see the dangers to the ecology of the Enderman islands whichever island it is as well as in Lakshadweep are well known the question is will this government work towards protection of the ecosystem in these islands or will they work towards allowing the damage to the ecosystem in the name of so called development or the entire focus of the draft EIA notification of 2020 which I think as a result of the large scale public protests against it this is the one law introduced by this government which they have not gone ahead to convert into actual law it was a draft and it has remained a draft but it is this enactment government has developed some cold feet maybe because of the sorry I was running out of battery maybe because of the fear of judicial intervention but EIA the draft EIA notification 2020 dilutes all the processes and procedures for environmental protection environmental impact assessment and the grant of environmental clearances I have no hope or faith in this system running under the present government that they will give priority for protection of the environment rather than economic development projects that is number one and number two the dangers as I said are well known even there I told you gave you an example the EIA clearance for the project in little and events has already been approved after having noted all the dangers and saying but yes these are problems but we are giving approval to the project so when that is the circumstance that we are facing I don't know maybe someday somebody will go to court on this issue maybe the court may give a positive response I don't know maybe a question there are question marks whether people can get justice from the judicial system or not it remains to be seen fortunately in the Andaman islands where these proposals are being made except for the great Andaman with Port Blair there is no local community Port Blair community is all essentially settler communities who have lived there only for 40 or 50 years fortunately you have 60,000 people in Lakshadweep with a long history of domicile in the islands with their own local government system etc and we are seeing very strong opposition there so hopefully Lakshadweep may be the pointy end of the spear with which these grandiose plans for island development can be stopped let us hope so and let us also spread this movement in the rest of India my worry is if the rest of India thinks that this is 1000 km I don't know which is in Dweep where there is jungle nothing else is happening there if we go to Dweep and this is going to happen in your city this is going to happen to all of us so I think the need is to strengthen movement against these projects in mainland India as it is happening now in the Lakshadweep case with a huge agitation in Kerala the Kerala assembly has adopted a resolution against this similarly we have a resolution against this similarly on behalf of the Andaman Islands I think all of us on the mainland India should generate a big movement to stop the central government from implementing this Thanks Raghuv, Dr. KV would you also like to respond to that question A brief response in fact regarding EAA in fact the EAA with the draft notification is now not in place but EAA and carrying capacity are being done for all these projects unfortunately we know the EAA are tailored or tuned for the the project proponent because they are paying for the EAA and carrying capacity the same has been done for Lakshadweep also and the number of as has told that the number of resources which is proposed in that EAA and carrying capacity is enormous so that is how EAA and these things are prepared so there is there has to be a change in the way or the persons who prepare this EAA and carrying capacity to have an accountability to some the society I mean if the way they have projectory is not going to happen that should be an accountability and they should pay for it and the system sees that all the legal permissions from the all the committees are bought that they manipulate it in such a way that they get it so that when it goes to the court it is difficult to get a favorable thing and in Lakshadweep there is a hope because many of these things are against the Supreme Court approved IIMP so there is a hope for that and one more thing I want to say is that the system the administrative system is trying to weaken the strength of the community by destroying, hitting at their self-respect that is the gundah act that is a major act which I mean hits their self-respect they are trying to weaken them and that today there is yesterday there is an order that a very fishing boat they are all traditional boats not trolleys or things should carry a government officer with him this is again hitting their self-respect and weakening the system so that they won't protest against it so these many tactics are being done by the system so we have to respond to all those things that is my respect I think we do not have any other questions though Raghu you have already what I intend to do is maybe 2 minutes to each Raghu and Thomas to really make the final comments the kind of way forward that we are looking at though Raghu has actually pointed out I am saying that it shouldn't just be restricted luxury what we require is movement in different parts of the country so I think Dr KV I would start from you to make your final comments maybe in 2 minutes you can wrap up and then Raghu and then I will take the last call I would like that the luxury community has to be strengthened to resist from themselves itself with the support from the mainland people that way only they can resist it and the second one is that look for the legal measures where we can get it strong because the luxury community is not that strong or things like that they are very peace loving they may get electric to these pressure tactics so try to strengthen them give support from the mainland go for legal remedies for the present situation the other things are long time things on EAA and carrying capacity studies ok ok thanks Dr KV for making those final comments Raghu would you like to I just have a few small things to say some of which may be repetition of what I have already said not a problem and that is we have to raise people's movements around the country precisely because as Dr Thomas said in the Andamans there is nobody there to resist what is going on except for a few people in port Blair etc who are trying to build a movement on this but a large part of the settler community there is not particularly involved with this thinking once again that this is far away from them when it does not involve them in Lakshadweep I think this needs to become a major struggle because there are large number of people on the island and who are being systematically attacked in order to break their resistance so we have to move on this there are currently two moves going on in parallel one is a people's movement the second is a movement by the political parties so far all political parties in Kerala and all opposition parties that includes the left includes the NCP includes the congress the assembly opposition and ruling party together in Kerala have moved resolution against these moves in Lakshadweep and appeals have been made by the MP who belongs to the congress party to the home minister asking for withdrawal of all these measures and removal of the administration whether we take this to the legal recourse or not time will tell because I think first administrative measures and popular protests will take place because otherwise court will come and tell you have you appeal to the home minister if not why should we consider first go and exhaust all avenues of appeal so I think that process will go but I don't see unless wisdom dawns upon the central government and we have seen very few occasions of such wisdom dawning on the central government in the last seven years unless wisdom dawns on the central government we may end up seeing this in court as well as on the streets particularly in Kerala I hope that we will be able to see also similar popular movements at least among environmental groups among people's movements like us along with political parties as far as the overall plan for islands development is concerned saying these are completely ill conceived plans with no future even the plans themselves are flawed it's not as if suddenly it's going to become real and the endowments of Lakshad Deep are going to become Maldives overnight that is also not happening either it's a full hardy exercise but there will be a heavy price to pay for that I once again request all our friends here to wait wait wait wait before you wind up can you just look at the last question I would like you to take that question that's a very interesting question can there be a situation where the environment and economy coexist and who will be responsible to implement sustainable development aspects the answer is very simple that's the local community if the local community works to develop what are called ecotourism projects there definitely can be projects which work to sustainably have tourism today you will find ecotourism projects being developed in very fragile areas in the north pole in the Arctic in various fragile areas where tourism is organized in such a way as to have minimal impact on the environment and ensure benefit goes to the local community the approach is very similar to what environmental groups and those concerned about development progressive groups talk about forests in India the old argument has always been if people are inside forests forests will get destroyed but we know that 300 million people in India live in or around forests and they are the best guardians of the forest because their livelihoods their way of life their sustainability depends on the forest who will best protect the fisheries of our country except the fisher people because their lives and livelihoods depend on it therefore the model is to ask the local community work with them to develop ecotourism sustainable tourism models with experts who are aware of this this will be of benefit both to the environment and to the local population well thank you Raghu I think it was a lovely discussion but what an irony I mean world environment day three important slogans tasks ecosystem preservation decade long task and this is what we are discussing so you know it's what you like swimming against the tide so I don't think I have to add anything else except to what I said in the beginning to go back to the to the same position and that is and what Raghu has also pointed out is that we have to go back to the basics the basics is planning not just around a forest around our islands but also the way we are doing it with our cities in in India and that is to involve the communities and lastly we have to get rid of this mindset that the ruler ruled dictum that we are witnessing you know the ruler knows everything and we are supposed to be ruled actually we have to advance from there to more citizenry based way citizens because after all they are the ones like Raghu pointed out forest is the forest people fisherman that's how you can protect your islands and I think minus the local communities, minus the people whatever planning we are witnessing is more ordained more steered for large capital acknowledgement and this is what we are witnessing this is not succeeding and this will never lead to the desired sustainable goals which are part and parcel of you know world environment so thank you so much Raghu thank you so much Dr. Kevi and thank you Sarangeya for being there and helping us with the logistics and thank you New Zealand for posting it live so I think with this we just end the discussion today thank you thank you everybody thank you