 Hey, welcome back to Think Tech here on a given Monday morning. I'm Jay Fidel and this is life in the law. You know, there are lawyers out there that are complete altruists and we want to introduce you to some of them today. They work for the community and care about the community and they dedicate their professional lives to the community. Okay. And we have a full house today, four of them. We have Tracy Wilchin, Executive Director of the Mediation Center of the Pacific. Raise your hand, please. There. Good job. Sam Caznes, she's an attorney-volunteer, Mediation Center of the Pacific. Diane Mitsuyama, Attorney and Volunteer and Coordinator in the Copiolani Access to Justice Room. We're going to find out more about that. And Ellen Poletano, she's an attorney-volunteer in the Family Court of the First Circuit, Volunteer Settlement Master Program, and so all got to do. That's got to do with mediation, isn't it? Welcome to the show, you guys. Thank you. So let's talk to you, Tracy. Let's talk about the Mediation Center of the Pacific. Let's talk about it in the context of the Pro Bono Program, which we are going to do as a ThinkTech live broadcast on October 9th, a given Friday. Let's talk about that program first. Great. Thanks, Jay. Here we have an annual Pro Bono celebration to recognize all of the many attorneys and non-attorneys who give countless hours to the community to increase access to justice. And there's a variety of ways that volunteers do that, and you're going to hear about some of those today. Yeah. Well, let's hear about the Mediation Center of the Pacific. First of all, what's mediation? How does it compare to litigation and arbitration? What's different about it? And how does the Mediation Center actually facilitate that? The Mediation Center of the Pacific is a 501C3 non-profit community service organization that provides affordable and accessible mediation to the community. And you ask, what is mediation and how does it work? Well, we bring people together. We facilitate conversations. We help them listen and talk to each other in a way they haven't been able to, and we help them negotiate agreements that work for them. Why this is so valuable is, unlike arbitration or litigation, the parties themselves are making their own decisions. The mediator doesn't make decisions unlike a judge or arbitrator. The other important thing, Jay, is that mediation conversations are confidential so they can bounce ideas off of each other, bounce ideas off of the mediator. And if they don't reach an agreement, they're not stuck with it. They can always go to arbitration or to litigation. It's a powerful process because it's informal. It gives people a chance to be creative and to come up with their own solutions. Yeah. What's the percentage of time they actually reach a settlement? And how often do they not reach a settlement? Got any numbers for me? Sure, absolutely. First, I'm going to say it depends. I'm going to sound like a lawyer because it depends on what area they're mediating in. So I'd like to focus on the domestic arena since the other two programs we'll be talking about today is in the domestic arena. And these are divorcing couples, their post-divorce, and their unmarried couples with children working out time-sharing agreements. So through mediation, they generally reach about a 65% rate of agreement. And you may think that that's not very high. But I want you also to recognize that a lot of these individuals don't come to mediation on their own. They're not familiar with it. So they start at court and they get sent to us. So to be required to come somewhere and then still be able to reach agreements is still really powerful. And the other thing is that even though some of them don't reach agreements, it helps them start talking to each other in a way they haven't been able to. So a lot of them are able to reach agreements on their own or they're less adversarial if they do end up in the court system. Yeah, wow. So it's free, by the way, when I come to the Mediation Center Pacific. Can I have this mediation as a free service or do I have to pay? And if I have to pay, what do I have to pay? So we have affordable services. We're available for everyone. So we charge on a sliding fee scale according to household income. So that means each party pays a flat fee for a three hour mediation session. So if you're in a very low income bracket, you may pay as low as $50. So you may have your fee waived. And the highest amount is about $250 if you have financial resources. So you compare that to an hourly fee. It's really a bargain irrespective of what financial bracket you're in. And your mediators are volunteers. Yes, so and you're going to meet one of them that we are honoring this year for the pro bono celebration. But without all of our volunteer mediators, Jay, we wouldn't be able to serve half the number of people that we serve. So each year we serve close to 1800 individuals through mediations that we manage. The mediators dedicate thousands of hours. And if we had to pay them, our budget would have to be double. So they really make a huge difference to our community by volunteering their time as mediators. And in order to do that, they go through a lot of training and continuing education to hone their skills and ensure that they're providing quality services. So has COVID stopped them, slowed them down, changed the way you do business? COVID has made a huge difference on everybody. Ironically, with mediation, conflict is a fact of life. People still are engaged in conflict. And unfortunately, with the stress caused by COVID, people are more stressed. It's created new types of conflict. So the mediation son of the Pacific is busier than ever. We have had to use the common word pivot our services. So majority of the services that we provide now are remote through videoconference and telephone. And we still have some limited in-person mediations because not everybody's comfortable with technology or not everyone has access to technology. And so to the credit of our mediators who weren't mediating via videoconference, we've had continuous trainings. And they've stepped up to the plate, learn how to use the technology, and continue to provide services. So we are actually busier than we were before COVID. Oh, that's probably easier. There's a benefit in using it. And the other benefit, which you didn't mention, is you could be on Zoom and you could raise your voice. You could even spit on the screen. But you're not sharing any viral particles with anybody. This is a real benefit. Absolutely. And we can run multiple mediations at the same time via Zoom. And nobody has to leave their home. That's wonderful. All right, we're going to have our mystery guest now. And that's going to be Sam. Sam is our mystery guest because Sam is, what is Sam? She is the honoree. You kind of referred to that, Tracy. So what is an honoree for this purpose? So each year for the pro bono celebration, we recognize everyone who's providing pro bono services. Each of the legal service providers, such as Legal Aid, Volunteer Legal Services, the Mediation Center of the Pacific, we honor one of our many volunteers. It's always difficult, but we always have somebody outstanding to honor for all of the dedication pro bono services they've done throughout the year. So this year, we're really pleased to honor Sam Samantha, Sam Kaznets. She has been a volunteer mediator for us since for the last six years. She's mediated hundreds of cases for us, really challenging cases, investing over 3,000 hours. So you can imagine. And in addition to being a wonderful mediator, she also assists the Mediation Center with training and mentoring new mediators, participating in trainings that we conduct for the community. And she is one of the outstanding mediators who was willing to learn how to mediate remotely. And she's also willing to come in because she recognizes our clients are not all comfortable with technology. So she has really supported the work, the mission of the center. And without her, we wouldn't have been able to do a lot of what we've done. So I'm delighted to honor Sam this year. OK, Sam, this is the part where we turn up the saturation on your picture. So it looks like you're blushing. No blushing. No blushing. That was pretty good. Can I call you Samantha? No. So Sam, why do you do this? You put in all these hours and all this effort and you must have some special affinity for resolving disputes and liking people or something like that. What, why? You know what Jay, it's interesting. People say, why do you do it? Just like you asked, truthfully, it feeds my soul. I love meeting new people. It is an amazing feeling to be able to help people move on with their lives, to get an apology that's been sought after for years. People come to us, they bear their souls. They tell us very, very intimate details about themselves, about their lives, their children, their spouses, sometimes a little too intimate. But it's called confidential. And it's very humbling that people come and share their lives with us the way they do. And being given the opportunity to help somebody resolve something so they can move on with their lives and look forward instead of back, it's true. It's an honor and it's very humbling. And I'm very grateful. And for me personally, I learn and grow every single time I mediate. It is amazing to me how people think, how they look at things, their interpretations, the decisions they make and why. And a lot of the times I'm very, very surprised at how people come up with things. Yeah, do you solve all your cases? No, no. So what's the magic of reaching an agreement or not? The magic. The magic is a conversation. Hopefully, we're facilitators. We're not judges, we're not there as lawyers, we're not there as therapists. Sometimes the therapy part does cross over a little bit but we really try to stay in our roles. Getting people to talk, having a conversation, again, apology is a very big deal for some people. And even though we don't get an agreement at times, that couple, sometimes a lot of the time is able to move forward and actually be in the same room and have a conversation about their children. That's wonderful. You're going to be acknowledged and faded on what, October 9th in our webinar that day. We'll have some very VIP people like the CJA there to compliment you. It's not finished for you yet. You have miles to go before the celebration is over but congratulations anyway and good for you, Sam. You are one of those altruists I talked about. Okay, Diane, what have you got to do with all of this and how much do you agree with what Tracy and Sam have said? Give me a percentage. As far as helping for everything. So I'm here in the talk about the Kapolei Access to Justice Room. It provides limited legal advice regarding family law matters by volunteer attorneys. Most, if not all of them are family law practitioners. It's running a partnership between HSBA, Family Law Section and the judiciary. So people come to the Family Court, I guess they have questions and at the whole Kelly desk they make an appointment. Right now we meet first and third Thursdays 11 30 a.m. to 1 30 before COVID. We were doing it in person at Kapolei Family Court and at some point in time right before COVID we had four attorneys running the first and third Thursdays and we just started a Supreme Court location. So we were doing really well and then COVID hit and so we closed a little bit and then with the help of the judiciary particularly the Supreme Court librarian we were able to restart a Kapolei Access to Justice on Zoom. So that's what we're doing now. So I do know Tracy through actually the Volunteer Settlement Master Program and other areas. But I think a lot of the volunteers like to help people kind of like what Sam said it's very rewarding and we feel like helping them navigate through the Family Court process is kind of good for them but also good for us I think overall as a community it's good to help other people who may not necessarily be able to know the system. Well a happy stable community is a happier place for everyone isn't it? We try. Well really I mean to the extent that families are angry at each other it's not good for anyone or the children either I should add. So but the operative word seems to be room. It's the Kapolei Access to Justice room. What does that mean room? Is that how important is the room in your operation? So prior to COVID like I said the judiciary would give us four conference rooms where we could sit with somebody on a half an hour basis from 1130 to 130. And when COVID stopped the courtroom closed or when COVID started the courtroom closed. So now where our rooms are basically virtual. So all by Zoom. And I think you know for the attorneys in some ways it is easier if they understand the technology because a lot of our offices are in downtown so we are more available I think. A lot of time- I've got a problem with the lawyers are here and the what do you want to call it? The mediation people? The medians? Is that a fair word? Participants. Okay they're there. And so it's a lot easier if neither party has to travel, no? Right. So it seems to me that the word room may be an historic word. I mean it seems to me that one possibility here when we come out the other side on COVID is that you find you don't need the room so much anymore because people have learned we are all learning every day I promise you that. They have learned about Zoom and other such programs so they don't need a room. Is this a possibility? I think so. I mean I think a lot of people there's a lot of advantages to doing it virtually like you said some people don't have to take off from work and physically drive to Kapolei they just take up their lunch break. It also helps on the time limits quite honestly so we can keep them in the very limited time that we do have so we can help more people in the end. But I do think it's easier and I think it might be something where people would want to seek out help. Some people are kind of intimidated I think to come to Kapolei, to come to family court to sit in a room with an attorney and they've never had that experience. So I think it's a little bit easier and I think we're getting more of a broader base. It's a new approach, it's a new protocol somehow. So I remember I had an accountant once and I said what kind of accounting do you practice? He says I practice psychiatric accounting and I think actually Donald Trump needs some of that right now but putting that aside some people in the law and especially in mediation they are really practicing psychology. I mean, Sam you said it was a little maybe sometimes it's more than a little to bring them together so they don't throw things at each other in the law. So the question is how can you have a measurable success in half an hour? How do you do that? Well, sometimes you can't sometimes people are repeat performers. You try to narrow down the issues. The whole Kelly desk is pretty good about giving us a sense of is this a child support question? Is this a custody question? And we do try to give them as much information to prepare for that half an hour and have their questions ready. Some people just need you to review their forms because the court forms are not necessarily altogether sometimes user friendly. So we just go over that. But you're right, there are gonna be people that sometimes one half an hour is not gonna do it and we welcome and we invite them to schedule another appointment if they feel they need it. So we do try it's like she said there's some emotion involved but I think because they know for us it's a half an hour and the whole Kelly desk is really good about explaining to them you have one half an hour that they need to really be prepared. Most oftentimes people are and if not like I said they're welcome to come back. There's no maximum amount of visits. So when it closes, let's assume they reach an agreement. Who documents that? Do you document that? Does somebody come in and talk? Does Tracy come in and document that? Sam help document that or do you just hand them a yellow sheet of paper and say write it up and we'll see if we can read it later? How do you document a result? So Jay let me see if I can tie it all together. What's really important here is we have thousands of couples each year who are getting divorced or who are not married but trying to work out time-sharing arrangements with their children. They don't have attorneys or they can't afford attorneys. And mediation is a wonderful process but they still need to understand their legal rights before they participate and negotiate because we certainly don't want them to negotiate away rights that they would have had and mediators don't provide legal advice. So by going to the access to justice self-help and I won't call it a room anymore that Diane has been talking about, you have attorneys who are volunteering their time who help these individuals, these couples understand the legal rights behind these issues so that when they go and work with the mediator and negotiate agreements they understand what they're agreeing to they understand what their rights are so they're not negotiating away something. So to answer your question they go and get information from the access to justice self-help video conference. And then they participate in mediation and if they reach an agreement the mediators, Sam will help them memorialize that agreement in their own language. So it's really important that all of us work together and together then we are helping people move forward in their lives but making sure that they understand their legal rights and workout agreements that meet those. So it's really important that all of us have a collaborative ongoing working relationship. So Ellen you're with the family court. Am I right to say that? You're part of the family court, no. Well you're part of, let me, you're the family court of the First Circuit Volunteer Settlement Master Program. Tell me, Keska say Kassah, what does that mean? Let me help. And before, so I'm an attorney in the family court of the First Circuit and I have worked in the BSM program since it was established in 2004. So I am dating myself but before I go to that I want to say actually before Tracy stepped in when Diane was concluding, I was thinking that when I opened I would tell you a little bit more about the distinction between Cajer, the capillary access to justice room and mediation. So what Stacy said is so people can use the, what they learn in the access to justice consultations with attorneys because that's what we do. Attorneys basically man or woman or man and woman that program and we meet with the clients for 30 minutes and we do different things, right? We review forms as Diane said, we give them information, tell them about the law, talk about their case, give them tools. They don't all necessarily go to mediation. They may go to mediation. We hope that they can and will and Mediation Center of the Pacific is one of the options we give them. But we're basically assisting them as attorneys on a consultation basis. So I work in, so Diane and I both are Cajer attorneys and Diane and I are both BSM attorneys. Yeah. So we work in both of those family court programs. I hope that's a little clearer. So back to the BSM program, it's all licensed attorneys. And again, it's our 16th year as of October 2020, 16 years. Judge Francis Wong, the lead judge in 2004 when the family court was still at the Kaohumano Halle Courthouse, the circuit court building, appointed a number of us and we've been serving since. Well, I have, and often I say, okay, it's another year and I'm already doing Cajer and I'm doing BLSH pro bono. I'm gonna take a break and get out of the BSM product. And I never do. The same reason that Diane does for the same reason that Sam does for the same reason that Tracy does what she does, right? It's a community service and we like what we do. So the BSM program is it's, we are appointed for a particular divorce case or a child custody case. So when I say or child custody, I mean paternity cases. So paternity cases are unmarried persons who have a child or children together and then they need to go to court to get court orders, right? Around custody, legal and physical and child support, medical care for the child, not a large pool of issues. It's kind of limited because it's all around the child. They're not married. Divorce case BSMs, of course, do the whole enchilada or burrito or whatever. Kind of like a property issues. Yeah, child, yeah. And so we're expected to give three hours minimum to each case that we do. I think Diane would agree with me. I can't think of when I've spent only three hours on a case. I mean, I have from time to time, I'm sure over 16 years, but by and large, we spend a lot more hours on that because as Tracy has said, I think she mentioned this in her presentation. Parties have three hours, right? When they go to mediation with Sam, for example, they may not finish, they may need more time and then they may need to come back. It's the same thing with the BSMs. How do you get them to cool off? Because a lot of them are there in a dispute and they're angry and they're miserable. Some of them in the time of COVID are even more miserable. How do you get them to cool off? I mean, I talked about psychiatric accounting. This would be psychiatric mediation, wouldn't it? Thank you, Sam. That's actually, that's a very impressive question right now because there are, you know, we, the SMs are, we are not, we don't wear a title of mediator but we act like mediators, we function like mediators, right? We facilitate or try to get people to reach agreements and it's compromising as part of that. Very hard to get a person from, or to a point of, okay, these are the issues. This is the other side's issues. Compromise may be necessary when they're stuck. A person is stuck on a, you know, psychological, emotional or even more so psychiatric concern. And we have, you know, I mean, there is no screening process if you have someone that comes in with, you know, say, for example, attention, high productivity deficit disorder or OCD having a hard time concentrating and focusing. That's difficult. What's good is that they come with their attorneys. And so when we meet with the parties in this mediation setting now via Zoom and the attorneys are normally present with their clients. And so there are, you know, there's more than just me, the mediator, but the attorneys are also assisting. Also, the SMs can talk to the attorneys and should talk to the attorneys ahead of meeting with the clients. I do that. I think many of us do, so that we can get a picture of not only the issues but the personalities of the client, right? The parties. So then we can gauge ourselves and plan for that too. Are we going to need to meet with them more than once? Is the first meeting going to be basically to try to establish some trust? They don't know me. They don't know us and, or us being the rest of the VSM attorneys, right? So it's like meeting your attorney for the first time or meeting a mediator for the first time. They got to trust you. Well, they not, we won't necessarily completely do that. We never really know for sure. We hope they do. And that's why more than three hours is taking me back to that often necessary. So we also serve without compensation. I think that's obvious because it's a pro bono service and so, but that's, there's actually a description of the VSM program. It's called the VSM process on the judiciary website. I looked at that to make sure that I had my information correct because I've been doing this for a long time but I couldn't remember the year we started. Oh, I know. That's serious. Well, because well, I know it is for various reasons, but I know that in Kapole, so I checked with Judge Kuriyama, our lead judge, right, our family court head judge, checked with her staff and they have it as October, 2010 is when the VSM program started and Diane will laugh at this because she knows. That's just the year we moved to Kapole, right? So maybe that's where their Kapole records start, but it's actually been a lot longer. Yeah. I wanna ask all you guys a question, which is sort of on my mind. Years ago, when I was practicing, I had a husband and wife who were, they were in a business together and they had a big argument and they said they were gonna bring in their best friend. He was a mutual friend. I mean, he was a friend of both of them. They're gonna use that conference room and we're gonna take an hour and hash it out and decide who got what, you know, the property and so forth. They had adult children and that they needed me to help them on the documents, the documents reflecting the settlement they reached with their friend who acted as mediator. And I said, I can't represent you both. I have to represent one side. It would be a problem if I represented you both. So I'll represent one side and the other side can get counsel or not, don't care. And so I drafted as counsel for one side. And I just, that's why I asked you earlier about, you know, who drafts, who puts, if it's a form, I suppose, you know, this person gets custody and that person doesn't, that's pretty easy. But if you have all kinds of, you know, drafting issues and language issues, who drafts, who puts that together? How does the system actually document the result without running into a conflict? So what I do, I do various things depending on the parties, who they are, the issues, who the attorneys are, you have to be fluid in this, right? So if I have two attorneys that I'm used to working with, I know them and I know, you know, their efficiency. Well, when you have attorneys, you don't have this problem. Well, no, well, what I'm saying is, let me ask you a question, because that's a very important question. What happens at the end of the BSM process? What happens where you have agreements, either some or all? So at that point, or at some point, when we're getting there, and it looks like we're making progress, what I will do is ask one or the other attorney to draft up a proposed stipulation, just draft it up, or a proposed divorce decree, get everything down, and there may be issues in there that were not settled, in addition to the ones that have been settled, but start with a document. And then, and I'll often pick the attorney who I like, that I know for one reason or another, is more likely to get that to me sooner than later. Maybe both will, but I ask how their schedules are, try to be respectful of that too, because again, you have to consider everyone here, the parties and the other attorneys, not just the BSM, everyone counts. Everyone's lives count, they're busy lives. So when that happens, and I get that, then I pass it to the other side, and then we talk about that, meaning the attorney and me, or that attorney and their client, and then we work that way. And in the end, often, there'll be a resulting stipulation that's prepared, that an agreement, you know what, I think people know what a stipulation is, sometimes even a complete divorce decree, and that's how the agreements get memorialized. Okay, we're out of time, but Tracy, I'd like you to close. And in the closing, I hope you can give me the parameters of the mediation that takes place in the context you guys have been discussing. It would not, for example, cover my husband and wife who are arguing about a significant local business. It would not be them. It sounds from the discussion that mostly this is about domestic relations controversies. Am I right? What am I missing here? But could you please close in any event? I'd be happy to close. So overall, the Mediation Center of the Pacific provides mediation for all types of issues. So your friends with the business, dispute and dividing up their business would be appropriate through the Mediation Center of the Pacific. Today's focus was on domestic cases because the mediator that we're honoring this year does primarily domestic mediation. And because the other two programs that we're recognizing, the Volunteer Settlement Master Program that Ellen was discussing and the Access to Justice Self-Help Room at Kapolei Court that Diane described both all involved domestic cases. So that's the focus on domestic cases today, but certainly access to justice is much greater than domestic but one of the areas of great need for increased access to justice is in the domestic arena. And that's why there are a lot of programs such as the three we've been discussing today that are focused on that need in our community because you made a really important point, Jay, when families continue to fight, it's hurtful to them. They lose more money. It's destructive to their children and they can't move on in their lives. So having these programs to enable them to have legal information, to help them move forward and reach agreements so that they can stop fighting, that they can reduce the stress and that their children can thrive and survive without everyone fighting is critical to our community. We're gonna have to leave it there, Tracy. That's Tracy, Wilgen, Sam Kanetz and Sam, congratulations. We'll see all of you guys on October 9th, I hope. Ellen Palotano and Diane Mitsuyama. Thank you all very much for showing up and participating in this Zoom meeting. Aloha, you guys. Thank you, Aloha.